IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-03-14
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00:02:51 <KenjiE20> uk doesn't get one :(
00:03:23 <Spoons> 14/03/2010 (local) nor 2010-03-14 looks even remotely like pie!
00:03:33 *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
00:04:18 <KenjiE20> no but 3.14 does in US-land
00:05:34 <TrueBrain> normally I have pie at pi-day ... but now it is sunday .. sucks
00:06:14 <OwenS> Chris_Booth: 14th March (3.14)
00:06:34 <KenjiE20> we just went over this
00:06:46 <Chris_Booth> i only just read it i am sorry KenjiE20
00:06:55 <Chris_Booth> how is coop without me?
00:07:12 <Chris_Booth> bet its much quiter
00:07:17 <KenjiE20> dunno if anyone told you
00:07:31 <Chris_Booth> but i am to emabrased to rejoin
00:07:42 <KenjiE20> learn to lock you're PC
00:07:52 <Chris_Booth> after what my housemate wrote to you can then try to give away
00:08:02 <Chris_Booth> learnt to lock my door
00:08:05 <TrueBrain> sure, say it was your housemate
00:08:33 <KenjiE20> ahh the interwebs, home of cynicism
00:09:05 <Chris_Booth> TrueBrain: put it this way it want me that typed it
00:09:14 <Chris_Booth> i wouldnt call this person my mate persay
00:09:18 <Chris_Booth> but i live with him
00:09:50 <TrueBrain> you sense no make do not
00:10:21 <TrueBrain> owh well ... you say hello, I say goodnight. Goodnight goodnight. You say hello, I say goodnight
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00:10:25 <Chris_Booth> i make sense if you know what i am talking about
00:10:35 <TrueBrain> even then, Chris_Booth, even then :)
00:11:30 <OwenS> Or not. Looking in wrong place. Hiding part/join messages has it's disadvantages
00:13:02 * OwenS wonders how to ascertain the type of parser he's implemented :p
00:13:49 <FauxFaux> OwenS: You implemented it, so it's not LR, so just say it's LL with an arbitary number afterwards.
00:14:05 <OwenS> FauxFaux: In that case, it will be LL(1), since I only look ahead one symbol :p
00:14:38 <OwenS> I think? I certainly don't look further ahead than the symbol I just asked the lexer for :p
00:14:57 <FauxFaux> Unless you're imortal or something, then it's concievable you actually managed to get an LR parser to work.
00:16:01 <OwenS> It doesn't help that the Wikipedia articles are impenetrable :p
00:16:21 <Chris_Booth> i am not a fan of wiki
00:17:24 <OwenS> Chris_Booth: Calling Wikipedia "wiki" is like calling the A1 "road": Calling something specific by an ambiguous name refering to what it is
00:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> HAPPY PI DAY!! <-- i'm just wondering what they'll do in 5 years, because then it's 3/14/15
00:17:36 <FauxFaux> The tiger book has a 20 page worked example for LR(0) nad it's still unpossible.
00:18:40 <OwenS> Heh. My parser comes in at 535 lines and it's not for a particularly simplistic grammar (Note to self: Write a formal description of grammar. That is, one more formal than a handcoded C++ recursive descent parser)
00:26:01 <Jolteon> When creating a town, is there any set pattern for creating towns?
00:26:20 <Jolteon> Cause tiny 300 people village has 3 huge shopping malls
00:26:34 <Jolteon> and this little village with 210 has a ruddy football stadiym
00:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: why do you even write a parser yourself, instead of using a parser generator like every sane person?
00:28:14 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Which do you suggest? Cause Yacc/bison suck horribly
00:28:30 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: what kind of "suck"?
00:28:48 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: For a start, use of global variables. For another, they assume C style code
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09:44:51 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 23 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Pikka> hrrrrrrrrrrr
09:45:13 <andythenorth> I need more refits for AV8 :|
09:49:39 * andythenorth hey, pikka just replied to my forum thread. must be telepathic
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10:09:39 <frosch123> hmm, indeed "morning", what am i doing here that early?
10:09:49 <jordi> Rubidium: I don't think that (grfcodec not being in archive) would be a reason to reject opengfx. I bet their scripts actually check for deps in the new queue
10:09:58 <jordi> Rubidium: I think it's common practice
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10:12:35 <andythenorth> planeset good, AV8 better :)
10:27:08 * andythenorth is very excited by the idea of new airports
10:28:04 * andythenorth wonders if industry funding cost be calculated depending on player's available money?
10:32:41 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it isn't
10:33:02 <andythenorth> sorry, 'could it be?' /s
10:34:49 * Alberth orders a factory with golden stairs, and a large main port with diamonds from andythenorth
10:35:18 <andythenorth> Alberth: does the palette have a 'sparkle' cycle?
10:35:46 <Alberth> it'd look electrifying, wouldn't it?
10:39:45 <planetmaker> lool @ Alberth's order
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10:43:20 <Alberth> and I don't even own the factory :(
10:56:55 * planetmaker gulps. Nooo! really?!
10:59:08 * Alberth places the factory right across his head quarters for a good view
11:00:59 * Alberth considers changing jobs
11:15:14 <lestat> I created a game who joins?
11:17:00 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I get that too
11:17:05 <andythenorth> something must be missing from the water plant
11:17:13 <andythenorth> does it happen for any other industries?
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11:17:24 <Gorillagram> well that's torn it...
11:17:35 <Terkhen> not that I noticed, let me check
11:17:42 <andythenorth> Terkhen: actually do you mean the stupid production, or the missing string?
11:18:07 <andythenorth> ok, that's a known issue :|
11:18:18 <andythenorth> it's a bug of the 'unfinished' kind
11:18:40 * andythenorth needs to think about how water is handled in FIRS
11:19:50 <Zuu> lestat: What differs your game from all other servers?
11:20:31 <andythenorth> Water Plants....should they produce 'food' (water packed in bottles?) I think not.
11:20:43 <Terkhen> I find that strange too
11:20:47 <andythenorth> when planning FIRS we thought they might produce food for some reason.
11:20:57 <andythenorth> could be so they could appear in other climate
11:22:18 * andythenorth wonders if water plants are like fishing harbours....and should therefore accept both engineering supplies and manufacturing supplies
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11:25:06 <andythenorth> RL vs gameplay: water can be shipped in bottles ('manufacturing supplies'). But who really cares?
11:26:49 <andythenorth> ^ nobody apparently :P
11:27:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: then call them recyclable bottles and ship them from towns back to the industry
11:27:18 <Rubidium> plus an industry that makes those bottles
11:27:28 <andythenorth> waste -> recycling plant -> manufacturing supplies?
11:27:36 <andythenorth> that was the plan, until I culled waste as a boring cargo
11:27:57 <andythenorth> bottles come from the glass plant and plastic plant initially
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11:30:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: waste is different in the sense that it is opposite in direction compared with mine -> factory -> ... -> factory -> city
11:34:54 <Alberth> adding some old old steel with the ore to produce steel has benefits: "..has drastically reduced energy and material requirements compared with refinement from iron ore" (wikipedia)
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11:55:13 <Singaporekid> Scout should have bonk and sticky launcher to take out sentries in the event of failteams
12:03:56 <Singaporekid> Hmm, can't fire while invulnerable though
12:04:10 <Singaporekid> Maybe demomon should have bonk instead so he can scores taunt while invulnerable
12:04:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19413 /trunk/src/rail.h: -Codechange: Merging RailtypeFlag enum (a bit number) with RailTypeFlags enum (had values only).
12:05:09 <Alberth> Singaporekid: we are supposed to understand what you say?
12:05:18 <Singaporekid> Only on weekdays
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12:39:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19414 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Doc: Several doxygen additions and corrections.
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12:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> why does that nick always remind me of Skittles?
12:59:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19415 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: Forward CommandCost with an error back to the caller.
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13:49:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19416 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Code style, move variable declarations to their first use.
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13:58:04 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I've fixed the FIRS water plant. Should show up in nightly later today. Won't be save game compatible though!
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14:02:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19417 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: More code style, move variable declarations to their first use.
14:02:54 <Zuu> Lol, my new water boiler "This product must not be used by anyone (ncluding children) suffering from physical or mental impairment". Luckily hearing impairment is not covered by that so I'm allowed to use the product. :-)
14:04:03 <OwenS> Zuu: Hearing is not a physical impairment? :p
14:04:42 <Zuu> As far as I'm aware it does usually not fall under that category.
14:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose the majority of people here have mental impairment :p
14:05:38 <Zuu> Otherwise I'd love to park at the special parking lots etc. :-p
14:06:33 <andythenorth> frosch123 / anyone industry cb 3D, does that reliably run every time cargo arrives at an industry? I have a case where I don't want to use production cb, but I do want to do something when cargo arrives....
14:08:50 <frosch123> it is run everytime cargo is delivered, but be careful, it is called more than once. e.g. once per vehicle and gradual loading step or even more often
14:09:19 <frosch123> the production callback otoh is called only once, which is likely different from ttdp
14:09:48 <frosch123> s/per vehicle/per wagon resp. articulated part/
14:09:57 <andythenorth> I have working code based on the production cb, but in the industry window, I have no use for the 'cargo waiting to be processed' string (in this specific case)
14:10:09 <andythenorth> It's not a big deal, just a nice tweak for players
14:10:13 <andythenorth> I might not bother
14:10:14 <frosch123> however the number and time of calls is not set in stone and might change
14:11:16 <andythenorth> hmmm....in that case my production cb code might produce wrong results in some situations. I hope I've covered that though.
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14:31:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19418 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Code style fix for ValParamTrackOrientation().
14:37:04 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19419 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_object.cpp bridge_gui.cpp command.cpp): -Codechange: Use failed CommandCost object to retrieve message instead of _error_message.
14:41:48 <Terkhen> andythenorth: thanks :)
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15:18:13 <fonsinchen> May I request an empty operator=, copy-constructor and default constructor for PoolItem?
15:21:02 <fonsinchen> Shall I make that a bug report? You cannot copy-construct or assign any pooled objects. I think that's bad ...
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15:30:52 <planetmaker> Alberth, I don't assume that any windows binary uses SDL.
15:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> why? if it's possible to configure, so why are you certain that not even 0.0001% of the windows users do that?
15:33:36 <planetmaker> one could certainly. Looks like it is as recommended as on OSX then ;-)
15:35:15 <andythenorth> waste is boring cargo....just loads of trucks moving around town. But hey an AI could do that right?
15:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that "32 colour" screenshot looks almost like the mars climate :p
15:36:57 <Alberth> planetmaker: it just shows how much I know about Windows :p
15:37:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny, the image is 1600x1200 but the resolution says 1920x1200
15:38:56 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it cannot be difficult to make a 'Mars' advanced setting then :)
15:42:19 <andythenorth> there ought to be a secondhand market in vehicles.
15:42:53 <andythenorth> after the model is no longer available new, it should remain available at a seriously depreciated price (reliability is probably already covered for that).
15:42:56 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19420 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp road_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Don't use _error_message to keep track of success/failure, use a had_success boolean.
15:43:33 <Alberth> with high running costs :)
15:43:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: pikka already has that bit covered with NARS 2
15:44:11 <andythenorth> it can all be done in newgrf I guess
15:45:01 <andythenorth> if the game showed 'purchased' date instead of 'build' date that would be handy
15:46:03 <Alberth> doesn't that look funny for a train engine?
15:46:30 <andythenorth> dunno. US railroads are often trading engines. Short lines use a lot of old engines, some are 50 years old
15:47:18 <Alberth> you only know that because they state the build date
15:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> these US guys apparently didn't understand the concept of electrification...
15:48:24 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: isn't it mostly freight? I never see an American movie with a train, only with planes or buses
15:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> in Dogma they use the train :)
15:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the americans totally screwed up their passenger train service...
15:50:48 <andythenorth> :| pikka forbids me cattle cars after a certain date
15:50:56 * andythenorth considers coding an add on for NARS 2
15:51:16 * andythenorth considers flying cattle
15:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, livestock transport also bothers me in DBSet
15:51:47 <Eddi|zuHause> because the fastest livestock transport is 100km/h, while all other cargo gets a 120km/h wagon
15:54:16 * andythenorth considers building a highway
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16:07:55 <Zuu> Is there someone who is good at windows command prompt escaping? As far as I understood if I enclose a parameter in " and replace all " with "" in the parameter string itself it should be safe? As in whatever the parameter string is, it can't be used to execute abritary commands?
16:09:43 <Zuu> I have noticed that including ; or && in the password parameter could break OpenTTD reading of the password parameter, but will not let you execute any commands as long as you ar forbidden to insert single ".
16:26:31 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Livestock isn't transported by DB any more. So there are no real modern livestock wagons.
16:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: i know the argument, but it harms gameplay
16:27:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it's "too realistic" :)
16:28:24 <Eddi|zuHause> what do i do with a "D.img" [4GB] and a "D2.img" [16GB]?
16:29:44 <fonsinchen> Yay! Now my autogrowing goods entry vector is finally faster than the array
16:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks like D is a prefix of D2
16:29:56 <fonsinchen> ... by 6 seconds in 12 minutes ... :|
16:30:07 <planetmaker> lol @ fonsinchen :-)
16:30:21 <planetmaker> Think of it in terms of green IT: you save power :-)
16:30:24 <fonsinchen> However, it also saves space
16:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> first difference is Byte 193720361
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16:31:03 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Modern trucks (eGRVS) are a ggod replacement for trains (even is livestock on eGRVS vehicles looks funny).
16:32:12 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: but "TTD is een Isenbahnspeel."
16:33:12 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Stop sounding like MB and get serious again. :-)
16:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, his arguments can quickly be used against him...
16:33:57 <fjb> Just don't discuss with him.
16:35:13 <OwenS> fonsinchen: Did you end up using the likely/unlikely macros?
16:38:35 <fonsinchen> no, I avoided the length checks where possible and removed one layer of indirection
16:38:55 <fonsinchen> most things only query all existing goods entries
16:39:30 <fonsinchen> thus you can do a for(Bla::Iterator i(begin()); i < end(); ++i)
16:40:02 <fonsinchen> then you are sure you stay within the given length and thus you don't need to override operator* or operator-> of the iterator
16:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause> question: can the upgradecost from railtype 1 to railtype 2 be adjusted by the newgrf?
16:40:58 <planetmaker> not that I know, Eddi|zuHause
16:41:13 <planetmaker> how are they determined, though? Difference in purchase price?
16:41:29 <Eddi|zuHause> because in some cases upgrading might only include the difference of the cost, while in other cases, upgrading includes removing and rebuilding stuff, which makes it almost as ore even more expensive than building new rail
16:43:25 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19421 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Remove explicit use of _error_message from CmdConvertRail().
16:43:44 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: the price you "pay" is the hassle with replacing the vehicels ;-)
16:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i think Alberth is racist against global variables
16:44:08 <Alberth> only one at a time :)
16:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'm specifically aiming at "compatible" railtypes
16:55:14 <Nite> right place and tiem to talk about bugs?
16:56:05 <planetmaker> bugs in acrobat distiller go elsewhere, though
16:57:25 <Nite> i have noticed that a "non onway" track which has a path signal at one end and a block at the other will crash trains
16:58:03 <planetmaker> I guess you should show that in either a screenshot and / or a savegame
16:59:18 <planetmaker> as I have never seen that kind of bug. Also: what version of OpenTTD do you use? (There's no 'latest')
16:59:19 <Nite> could demonstrate it on a 1.0rc2 server ...
17:03:21 <Alberth> an explanation + a save game is more useful for bug hunting
17:03:31 <Nite> server is called "strange crash"
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17:04:02 <Nite> demonstration is useful here - 2 phases
17:04:17 <Alberth> I don't know what patches the server is running, I'd prefer a demo in a local unmodified copy
17:05:17 <Alberth> you cannot submit a server to a bug report in FlySpray
17:05:55 <Alberth> neither can a dev run local tests to find the cause
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17:06:23 <Nite> i try to set it up so the trains will cras
17:07:28 <Alberth> ok, submit the save game + explanation how to reproduce to FlySpray please (bugs.openttd.org)
17:08:13 <Nite> crash should happen when unpause the game
17:09:44 <Alberth> just to be at the safe side, do not use any NewGRFs
17:10:15 <Alberth> then it could also be a bug in the NewGRF :(
17:10:17 <planetmaker> Nite, you can save the game the server is running
17:10:31 <planetmaker> and test whether it works in single player for you.
17:10:40 <planetmaker> If so: then do as Alberth suggested :-)
17:10:46 <Nite> but its 2 trains seperated by 2 signals, so they shouldnt crash
17:11:12 <Alberth> indeed, if they do, it is a bug
17:11:20 <planetmaker> can you maybe make a quick screenshot of the situation and post it somewhere?
17:11:33 <Alberth> we just try to eliminate as much possibilities that we can
17:11:40 <planetmaker> Alberth, not if trains are turned and go backwards through a path signal
17:11:49 <Nite> the server is online - you can take a saave from there
17:12:06 <planetmaker> You are online. So...
17:12:18 <planetmaker> what's the issue to test locally?
17:12:23 <Alberth> Nite: you can also post at the forum (general openttd probably)
17:12:40 <Nite> ill test it in singleplayer and without newgrfs first
17:12:43 <planetmaker> Nite, I'm connected to IRC. But not to any server nor can I connect to any right now
17:13:04 <planetmaker> It's also fine to report the error with newgrfs. They shouldn't do cause such bugs either.
17:13:07 <Alberth> I don't even have 1.0-RC2 here :)
17:13:12 <planetmaker> Alberth, me neither :-)
17:13:29 <planetmaker> Nite, not for my platform.
17:13:54 <Nite> server is online anyway ...
17:14:30 <Alberth> post of an image would help a lot already
17:16:06 <planetmaker> e.g. use img.openttdcoop.org to quickly upload a screenshot.
17:16:13 <planetmaker> maybe it's no bug after all.
17:17:02 <Nite> when 2 trains are seperated by 2 signals and both enter the same block it shouldnt happen so its pretty buggish
17:18:28 <Nite> is there someting like "savegame.openttdcoop.org" ;)
17:19:12 <Nite> at first a train waits at signal but then enters the block at the same time teh non waiting already reserved train enters the block
17:19:18 <Ammler> frosch123: you could add target bundle_zip to the ttdviewer, then we could add it to the newgrf nightly script
17:19:48 <frosch123> you mean an alias for "make release"? or is it different?
17:20:01 <frosch123> btw. are you notified on every push?
17:20:15 <Ammler> yes, on #openttdcoop.devzone
17:20:19 <Nite> target bundle? alias make release ??
17:20:34 <Nite> sry but sounds little gibberish to me
17:20:56 <planetmaker> Nite, path signals can be passed from the back. You now talked a lot, but showed us nothing :-(
17:21:17 <planetmaker> and both didn't talk to you.
17:22:05 <Nite> you mean oneway path signals?
17:22:39 <Nite> ok where can i post savegame?
17:22:41 <planetmaker> btw, frosch123 there's no target 'make release'... at least in newer makefiles of mine. Dunno right now - did you use mine? Seems improbable given TTDViewer is no newgrf
17:22:56 <Alberth> the general openttd forum?
17:22:59 <Nite> maybeee its not a bug and you yust have to avoid that construction
17:23:32 <Nite> it ry to pick teh right place but you tell em numerous places
17:23:42 <frosch123> planetmaker: all targets are made up myself, that is why they are so dodgy :p
17:24:13 * planetmaker goes looking how those targets are called
17:24:23 <frosch123> i have some trouble writing a makefile for a compiler that does dependencies itself (or not at all?)
17:25:03 <planetmaker> he, yeah, that sucks.
17:25:14 <planetmaker> I wrote my own dep check for the newgrf makefiles
17:25:32 <planetmaker> doing basically a recursive pattern search on the main source file
17:26:21 <frosch123> i just made "clean" a dependecy of "all" :p
17:27:03 <planetmaker> hm, doesn't sound quite desirable. It means a full re-built every time you make all
17:27:32 <frosch123> it does not really matter, i could have written a shell script just as well
17:27:49 <Alberth> that would have the same effect :)
17:32:28 <planetmaker> Nite, ... so... savegame or screenshot?
17:32:52 <Nite> i upload atm at img.openttd.org
17:33:36 <PeterT> I didn't know such a domain existed
17:33:51 <planetmaker> Nite, image too large? (<2MB)
17:34:51 <Nite> wrong file type pcx moment ...
17:34:58 <planetmaker> pcx should be fine
17:35:17 <PeterT> planetmaker: Where are you uploading it to?
17:36:28 <planetmaker> it's the same machine as devzone
17:36:28 <PeterT> what is this "img.openttd.org" talk
17:36:44 <planetmaker> that's a mis-spelled server name
17:36:46 <Nite> ups sry the options window is on it
17:37:26 <PeterT> planetmaker: Ah, img.openttdcoop.org then?
17:40:00 <Nite> "Ah, img.openttdcoop.org then?" true
17:40:12 <PeterT> Nite: Image does not exist
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17:42:05 <Nite> when i click on the link it does exist
17:42:37 <planetmaker> yes... I notice that...
17:45:33 <planetmaker> so. where's the problem?
17:45:50 <KenjiE20> make sure your url parser is grabbing the .
17:46:08 <Nite> so everyone has it exept who?
17:46:35 <Nite> it gave me the link like this
17:46:52 <Nite> with no file extension strangely
17:47:15 <planetmaker> Nite, yes, that's only an issue of how our IRC clients grab URLs. But what's your ingame issue now?
17:47:33 <Nite> it is that wehn both trains have loaded fully ...
17:47:48 <Nite> ... tehy both grab the left lane
17:48:14 <SpComb^> ew, mixed path signals block signals
17:48:20 <Nite> and also both enter it - the bottom train first waits at the block sig
17:48:41 <Nite> (im aware that when i donot mix them it works
17:49:16 <Nite> but then enters it when tho upper train enters the "middle section/block"
17:49:23 <Nite> they do crash every time
17:49:34 <planetmaker> hm... I agree they shouldn't.
17:49:39 <Nite> (i used only path signals to prevent it)
17:50:04 <planetmaker> I think you should upload the savegame with a bug description at bugs.openttd.org
17:50:19 <Nite> (server "strange crash" is still there)
17:50:38 <KenjiE20> that probably shows it clearer
17:51:02 <Nite> that sould cras them - heve you tried it?
17:51:17 <KenjiE20> so my train went up the other lane
17:51:28 <KenjiE20> but in theory it could enter the left one
17:51:37 <KenjiE20> since the light is green
17:52:04 <Nite> no the light gets red - train waits - but then enters the block
17:54:31 <KenjiE20> mine stopped on both sides of the red
17:55:14 <Nite> the train at the path sigs goes through
17:55:38 <KenjiE20> mine are both waiting at the two way red
17:56:54 <planetmaker> Nite: do upload your savegame please.
17:57:23 <planetmaker> if you're online, just save the stuff and upload it. To tt-forums or bugs.openttd.org
17:58:36 <KenjiE20> I even added a third train and set turbo on to increase the chances, still just sat at reds
17:58:44 <planetmaker> for me it works in r19412
17:58:56 * KenjiE20 bets one train has a SPAD set
17:59:39 <KenjiE20> signal pass at danger
18:01:19 <KenjiE20> anyway yes, up a save somewhere so we can see
18:03:12 <Nite> cannot reproduce it new game either - same grfs same rc2
18:04:49 <Nite> classic why has nonone tried it before
18:06:24 <planetmaker> just click on 'ignore' signal and voilà
18:08:31 <Nite> trains have no ignore signal set ...
18:08:55 <Nite> the one at the block sig ignores it by magic ...
18:08:55 <planetmaker> there's no GUI way to say...
18:09:30 <Nite> is any file upload servce ok for save?
18:09:45 <planetmaker> they usually suck big time
18:10:19 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of 'work'
18:10:29 <Nite> for small file exchanges
18:10:49 <Nite> but ok which one should i choose?
18:10:57 <planetmaker> bugs.openttd.org :-P
18:17:30 *** lobstar has joined #openttd
18:22:43 <Zuu> Nite: You'll be able to use that account for many things on openttd.org :-)
18:23:43 <planetmaker> Zuu, does it also work for the NoAI zone?
18:23:57 <Zuu> NoAI zone uses a separate system.
18:35:52 <Nite> savegame to the traincrash above
18:39:56 <Nite> maybee someon ealready signed up can use it ...
18:46:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19422 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 61 changes by yxomo
18:46:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
18:46:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: esperanto - 1 changes by kristjan
18:46:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: estonian - 9 changes by irve
18:46:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: greek - 37 changes by fumantsu
18:47:20 <frosch123> always the same translators mess it up :p
18:47:53 <SpComb^> PeterT: `make bundle` translates Win64 to x64
18:50:24 <PeterT> neob begged to diffe3r
18:54:56 *** DanMacK has joined #openttd
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18:57:06 <planetmaker> hello DanMacK :-)
19:00:44 *** Progman has joined #openttd
19:01:27 <SpComb^> TARGET := $(shell echo $(PLATFORM) | sed "s@win64@x64@;s@win32@Win32@")
19:02:04 <SpComb^> perhaps it's win64, I'm not sure if sed's case-insensitive per default
19:07:51 <SpComb^> that should be fixed..
19:09:07 <michi_cc> Nite: that's a known problem when mixing path and block signals that will likely not be fixed. The problem is that determining the red/green state in all cases can be computationally very expensive for larger games.
19:09:59 <andythenorth> anything happening?
19:10:23 <Nite> so i just avoid mixing these signals
19:11:33 <Nite> then again even in a non mixed track setup it has to "computerize" every state or otherwise trains would crash
19:12:07 <Nite> i dont get why it exeptionally doesent check it in "that" setup - anyway ...
19:13:57 <michi_cc> only for block signals, and (with the exception of combo signals) normally only up to the next signals. with mixed signals, you can construct a setup where every single track of your network as to be checked fore a train.
19:15:02 <michi_cc> and for why not in this instance: there are so many different possible combinations that special-casing some is totally impractical
19:15:10 <SpComb^> oh wait, fine, I thought it might have been Win32
19:16:49 <michi_cc> (and as a side note: setups mixing path signals and one-way block signals are mostly fine, two-sided block signals are the troublesome ones)
19:17:12 <Nite> ok i understand that it can be only a limited number of "next" siganls to process
19:18:10 <Nite> in this case it only is T H E next siganl thats not processed - and thus trains crash and not only get stuck/jammed up ...
19:18:55 <Nite> (ill take care with two way blocksigs)
19:20:12 <Nite> its: "train signal train" and so i was shocked to see the traincrash
19:20:29 <michi_cc> so we fix this. the next time, someone will complain that it's only the next two signals or that the next signals are both path and block signals or something. it's simply impractical from a code maintenance point of view.
19:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> rule of thumb: do not mix block and path signals
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19:23:10 <Nite> i now know how to get around it - still a train going into a clearly by signals divided secton where a train already is is strange
19:24:34 <Nite> if a path signal would be also a block signal (= chacking the next block for beein free) this crash wouldnt happen (jsut a thought)
19:24:51 <Nite> trains woudl get stuck and jammed but no crash
19:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what?!? the sense of a path signal is exactly that it is NOT a block signal
19:25:22 <Nite> (chEcking adn beeing *sry*)
19:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so... copying a 16GB file to an NTFS drive with 16GB free is not going to b fun...
19:27:58 <michi_cc> not really possible because the concept of a signal block simply fails with two-way path signals
19:28:28 <Nite> true true i typed to fast
19:29:16 <Nite> strangely the train wrongly entering the section is behind a two way block ...
19:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: what about "a train entering through a block signal with a path signal near must reserve a path to a safe waiting point as if it were entering through a path signal"?
19:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> or did i understand the situation the wrong way?
19:30:03 <Nite> just wondering what is the section between a two-way-block and path signal - is it a block section or pat section?
19:31:01 <michi_cc> it works like this, but this logic isn't really working with two-sided block signals as these can already be a destination for a reservation
19:31:03 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't download savegames
19:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: but if this signal is already destination of a reservation, then the train wouldn't be able to reserve a path there, and thus would stop with "waiting for path"?
19:32:26 <Nite> obove you can check the crash
19:32:49 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i guess rather make block signals check for reserved tracks instead of trains on the tiles
19:32:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: what was the part you misunderstood about "i don't download savegames"?
19:32:55 <michi_cc> this particular problem could probably be fixed by forcing a reserved two-sided block signal to red, but this is not a general solution for every possible situation
19:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the problem is that the reservation is not in the "block"
19:33:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: probably the "I", "n't", "download" and "savegames"
19:34:28 <Nite> the train shoucld simpyl stay behind the twowayblock
19:34:57 <Nite> its a blcik signal and thus it must not go into the next section where a trian is entering/entered
19:35:43 <Nite> (no eddi i dont understand the word "dont" ;) )
19:39:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that's fine, because "dont" isn't a word, but "don't" should make a difference :)
19:40:47 <Nite> i don't like ot signup you don't like to download - where would the net be with only ppl like that ...
19:40:49 * SpComb^ admires fonso's `enum SaveLoadVersions`
19:41:00 <SpComb^> something like that should go into trunk
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19:41:26 <SpComb^> I also propose adding an `SLV_NEXT` item to it, and then defining the current saveload version as `SLV_NEXT - 1`
19:42:10 <SpComb^> so `enum SaveLoadVersions { SLV_TRUNK = 140, SLV_NEXT, SLV_MAX = 255 };` or so
19:42:38 <Nite> still i now ask myself how can a train suddenly enter a block that was occupied by allredy processed path an d now gets occupied by the train that uses the path ...
19:44:11 <frosch123> why are the graphics in the java look&feel repository not part of the default runtime environment :s
19:46:54 <Nite> i assumed that trains always check the next section weather block or path ...
19:48:13 <Zuu> Oh, nice "bug", currently OTTDAU 2.0.2 users will get 2.0.2 when they update to 2.0.3 :-)
19:49:36 <Zuu> As they could keep update and update.. but it is not totaly automatic, you get a window that asks you if you want to update or not.
19:50:01 <Zuu> Look at the 2.0 part of the page.
19:50:59 <Zuu> Oh, I need to update the website as well. So it links you to 2.0.3.
19:51:27 <Rubidium> Zuu: isn't it about time to ditch NoAI nightly support?
19:51:41 <Zuu> I think it is already ditched.
19:51:51 <Rubidium> then fix your website :)
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19:53:24 <Nite> the traincrash i produced still is the strangest - the signal is red but the train goes over it whe the signal that makes it red is passed - not before ...
19:53:44 <Ammler> Zuu: if you update the screenshot: !s/#coop/#openttdcoop/
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19:54:02 <Nite> so that means it is checked (computed and already uses processing power) but sdoes it wrong ...
19:54:44 <Zuu> Ammler: Okay, that would probably had happened anyways since I've made that change localy.
19:55:03 <KenjiE20> Nite: a thought, try it without a tunnel
19:55:31 <Ammler> Zuu: not necessary, just if you update anyway :-)
19:58:27 <Nite> same without depot or tunnel
19:59:54 <Nite> train waiting for free path enters a section which does not have a path - thats it and i cant tell why
20:00:14 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19423 /trunk/src/ (command_func.h industry_gui.cpp network/network_command.cpp): -Codechange: Move error message reporting of industry build in SE to a callback.
20:02:42 <PeterT> Zuu: Is this a bug or on purpose?
20:05:07 <PeterT> No buttons at the bottom
20:05:32 <Nite> (know now how to reproduce ...)
20:06:52 <Zuu> I have no idea, I'll check trough the source whenever the highth of that window is set.
20:07:30 <PeterT> is the source available?
20:07:55 <Zuu> Not as in OS but I do have it. :-)
20:08:35 <Zuu> If you resize the window what happens then? I guess the buttons follow behind?
20:09:19 <PeterT> I just closed it and opened it again
20:09:29 <Zuu> The window height is stored in the ini-file but I would guess that the buttons should follow the bottom even if it is resized by code.
20:09:49 <Nite> i find that path sigs are brutally complex
20:10:19 <Zuu> It's a strange error that I haven't seen before, though I'm not a Delphi guru like Belugas. ;-)
20:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: what i've been meaning to ask: when you abbreviated "OpenTTD Auto Update" to "OTTDAU", did you realize what "DAU" actually means in german? :)
20:11:13 <Alberth> Nite: allowing trains from behind a signal makes it much more complicated, I only use one way path signals and one way block signals
20:11:24 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Nope, I don't know german.
20:12:08 <Zuu> I hope it is not to terrible as it would be a lot of work to change that. :-)
20:12:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: expands to "Dümmster Anzunehmender User" and translates to "pebkac" or similar
20:14:03 <Eddi|zuHause> (it's derived from "GAU" meaning "Größter Anzunehmender Unfall" as in "worst possible case" [usually refers to a nuclear meltdown])
20:14:52 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: must remember that, sounds like a good name for whatever I will make next :p
20:15:05 <Nite> i also thaought about ott-dau :-D
20:15:38 <Alberth> that'd be Original Transport Tycoon
20:16:22 <PeterT> Nobody calls it that though
20:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a guy here a few weeks ago who asked for a program/website that checks whether names mean something problematic in other languages... i should have thought of that case back then...
20:16:28 <Nite> dau = dumbest assumable user
20:16:31 <PeterT> TTO is Transport Tycoon Original
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20:17:42 <Eddi|zuHause> more common is "TT" though
20:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> why is there a "speak like a pirate" day, but no "speak in palindromes" day?
20:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not a palindrome :=
20:20:36 <Nite> honestly i thaought ottdau was a joke liek there should be a ottd for teh dumbest useres assumable ...
20:21:16 <Nite> and then it is something for ppl who cant update amnually
20:21:21 <Zuu> Nite: Not everyone knows german...
20:22:19 <Zuu> Well, thanks for telling me about the fun. I don't have time to "fix" it now though.
20:23:10 <PeterT> [16:09:15] <PeterT> Zuu: Never mind
20:23:10 <PeterT> [16:09:22] <PeterT> I just closed it and opened it again
20:23:28 <Nite> dont change the name it stays in ppls minds taht way (mostly germans)
20:23:35 <Zuu> I was refering to the name change.
20:23:55 <PeterT> It's not broken, nothing to fix
20:27:52 <Zuu> Though, it does not magically install for you. You still need to get the OpenTTD base graphics/sounds and setup the OpenTTD installations in OTTDAU.
20:28:12 <Zuu> Eg. you can't be completely DAU to use it. ;-)
20:30:04 * andythenorth looks for a way for an industry to find the population of the nearest town
20:30:17 <andythenorth> var 65 has some 'bits reserved for future use'....
20:31:09 *** guru3_ is now known as guru3
20:31:53 <Nite> i thought you dont need old tto grfx in 1.0 any more ...
20:33:31 <Ammler> you don't need, but you still can...
20:34:06 <Ammler> hmm, not sure about tto, but ttd
20:34:26 <andythenorth> Rubidium: thanks...I"m not sure how to use it yet, but looks like I could have recycling plant production depend on nearby town population...
20:35:27 <Rubidium> it's scary how much of NewGRF I know from glancing newgrf_*.* so many times
20:35:51 <Rubidium> just finding it in the specs is difficult
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20:36:25 <Alberth> source code is much more readable :)
20:37:43 <andythenorth> I've never used 'related object'. I sort of knew about it. Looks quite...interesting.
20:38:00 <andythenorth> oh, I've used it in articulated rvs
20:38:10 <andythenorth> and industries. doh
20:40:34 * andythenorth wonders if recycling plant production *should* depend on town population
20:41:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, better than collecting waste all over the place...
20:42:24 <Nite> btw the opengfx fields look barren all the time - little more yellow would do them good (also to spot them quicker from "above")
20:43:12 <andythenorth> mmmm new code to figure out then
20:44:27 <andythenorth> hmm. Feel like I've discussed having 'random' output cargos from industries before. Is it an annoying idea?
20:44:31 <Eddi|zuHause> crazy idea: have the recycling plant "chop" houses like the saw mill chopping trees :p
20:44:38 <michi_cc> Nite: after investigating your savegame more detailed I have to acknowledge that this specific situation really *is* a bug. (this doesn't invalidate what I said earlier, mixing signals still can lead to problems in some situations)
20:45:02 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yup, crzy :D
20:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, i had this picture in my head and had to share it :p
20:45:35 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: nah, let it recycle stuff of your company
20:45:46 <Rubidium> only on difficulty level "hard"
20:48:16 <andythenorth> but seriously, assume that 'waste' is not generally available in FIRS, but there is a recycling plant. It acts like a primary industry, what should it produce? Options include: scrap metal, farm supplies (compost), manufacturing supplies (plastic and glass)
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20:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe have the compost produced by a treatment plant instead?
20:49:32 <andythenorth> nah, no more new industries :) The sprites for this one are done, and I am fighting a battle against 'too many industries'
20:49:49 <andythenorth> although we did talk rather too much about sewage farms once
20:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> farm supplies doesn't really fit in...
20:50:23 <andythenorth> scrap food goes to animals, compost goes to farms??
20:50:26 <Nite> i can now easyly reproduce that "bug" or glitch
20:51:17 <Nite> let the first train get the rout and the let the second one search for one ... bam
20:51:54 <Nite> i also dont get why both trains liek to choose the "outer" route
20:52:34 <Nite> i expierienced more glitchy things (also with depots and path siganls) ...
20:52:36 <michi_cc> the real problem is the bridge directly in front of the station, if you remove it the crash prevention works like intended
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20:53:09 <Nite> oh the bridge was teh only object i didnt remove (tried it without depot and tunnel)
20:53:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19424 /trunk/src/group_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Call command procs only via DoCommand().
20:55:39 <Nite_Owl> Hey ---- wait a minute ---- copyright infringement
20:55:52 <Nite_Owl> PeterT was Hello'd on another channel
20:57:22 <Nite_Owl> well copyright infringement minus the Owl
20:59:15 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r19425 /trunk/src/pbs.cpp: -Fix: [YAPP] A train on a bridge/tunnel was not always found when checking for trains on a reserved path.
21:01:10 <Nite> keep in mind that when the train anters the "crashsection/block" the train isnt on the bridge anymore
21:02:05 <Nite> i had a problem with trains accepting the platform behind the bridge though (rebuild teh paltform then they acceppted/found it)
21:03:30 <Nite_Owl> Windows compile problems again with the nightly or a daylight savings time glitch ??
21:05:05 <Nite_Owl> not really a verb but you get the idea
21:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: that may occur when you have the wrong railtype
21:06:09 <michi_cc> Nite: the last carriage still is on the bridge
21:06:30 <Nite_Owl> the many joys of a complex compilation farm
21:07:01 <Nite> wasnt the wrong railtiype (steam can run on every type) - i blamed the newgrf
21:07:21 <Rubidium> Nite: not complex, rather not wanting to mess too much with the server
21:08:01 <Rubidium> yeah, tab completion and such :)
21:08:48 <Nite> i dont even know how 2 do the "Name:" thing
21:09:28 <Rubidium> anyhow, there is a vbox update that fixes the problem but that requires a kernel update and given the trouble we had to get the initial kernel running properly... better not push our luck
21:09:45 <Rubidium> besides that, we don't have enough time at the moment to clean up the mess if it goes wrong
21:10:00 <OwenS> Rubidium: vbox? Virtualbox? Something else?
21:10:26 <OwenS> This is the point where I hug OpenSolaris' checkpointing on updates
21:10:29 <Eddi|zuHause> where is daylight savings time?
21:10:49 <frosch123> here in two weeks or so
21:10:52 <Nite_Owl> U.S. as of last night
21:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the nightly server runs on european time
21:11:57 <OwenS> An update goes wrong... you boot the previous boot archive, everything is fine
21:12:07 <Nite> "summertime" march 28 here
21:12:26 * Nite_Owl fails at a humor attempt
21:12:41 <Rubidium> OwenS: fine, now do that without having any remote 'real console' access, i.e. with only ssh access
21:13:29 <OwenS> Rubidium: Even my VPS gives me real console access over SSH
21:13:38 <Nite_Owl> Nite: "/nick" without the quotes I believe
21:13:51 <Rubidium> OwenS: VPS != dedicated server
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21:14:02 <OwenS> Rubidium: Plug the serial box into a terminal server ;-)
21:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: you type the first few letters of a name and then press the "tab" key
21:14:42 <Rubidium> OwenS: and how much is that going to cost extra per month?
21:15:13 * andythenorth ponders being evil with industry code
21:15:18 <OwenS> Rubidium: I don't know. The alternative is just to change the grub boot file to a different archive, assuming things still boot (If they don't... you're in the same boat on any OS)
21:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the tricky part about being evil is to avoid facing the consequences ;)
21:16:09 * andythenorth wonders what the consequences might be
21:16:16 <Nite_Owl> my bad - I thought you meant changing a nickname (wishful thinking on my part perhaps)
21:16:46 <Rubidium> OwenS: yes, I know that... but that's the tricky part where you need to get it right and such. Lots of work to validate, not much time to do so
21:17:10 <Rubidium> besides that... the issue only happens occasionally and doesn't really break stuff
21:17:19 <Rubidium> except windows nightlies
21:17:33 <OwenS> Hmm... /me notes that struct Tile is at least 28bytes on ARM
21:17:47 <Nite_Owl> in any case I am sure it will work tomorrow
21:18:45 <Nite_Owl> and if not then I am also sure it will be fixed as soon as possible
21:18:54 <OwenS> (ARM alignment rules are align to max(sizeof(X), 4))
21:19:33 <Rubidium> OwenS: also with 'pack'?
21:20:00 <Rubidium> i.e. __attribute__((packed))
21:20:49 <Rubidium> but I doubt that it's 28 bytes on ARM, otherwise dominik would've told us about it
21:24:37 * Nite_Owl is longer having an identity crises
21:25:16 <OwenS> Rubidium: packed overrides that, but the ARM ABI says to align to 4 bytes
21:26:12 * Nite_Owl <correction> is no longer having an identity crisis
21:27:20 <Nite_Owl> poor attempts at humor when you leave out a key word
21:33:11 * andythenorth thinks how nice it would be to be able to check persistent storage at one industry from another industry :P
21:34:12 <peter1138> should i try compiling openttd for my acorn a7000? :p
21:34:29 <Rubidium> is that the Born kind of acorn?
21:34:47 <andythenorth> peter1138 why not. There's an A3000 in a loft somewhere with my name on it
21:35:11 <Nite> can you get passwords for nicknames on irc (sry very offtopic)
21:35:30 <PeterT> /msg NickServ help register
21:35:30 * andythenorth faces a mountain of nfo :|
21:35:32 <peter1138> andythenorth, er, well...
21:35:44 <peter1138> andythenorth, that would need a RISC OS port :s
21:36:06 <andythenorth> ok, skip that. we have enough troubles with...no lets not go there
21:36:07 <peter1138> unless there's some unixy environment (cygwin-alike) for it
21:37:24 * andythenorth stares lovingly at industry var 68, wondering if it could do more....
21:38:09 <Rubidium> andythenorth: don't think 1 MiB is enough for OpenTTD
21:38:30 <andythenorth> mine had 2MB. *very* expensive upgrade
21:38:42 <andythenorth> anyway, ancient history
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21:39:27 <Rubidium> andythenorth: wouldn't that be a A3020?
21:39:42 <andythenorth> they sort of worked reliably. ours....didn't
21:39:52 <peter1138> this machine has 36MB
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21:51:34 <OwenS> Rubidium: Hmm. It seems that the ARM EABI may no loger align everything on word boundaries
21:52:25 <peter1138> okay, it has 40MB ram
21:52:27 <OwenS> (The original ARM ABI definitely does)
21:52:40 <peter1138> however, it is only a 48Mhz ARM7500FE
21:54:42 * Zuu goes and finds some signed material to watch
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22:21:14 <JakeGrimshaw> tested my scenario yet petert ?
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23:35:12 * SpComb^ updated the MinGW page on the wiki to link to MSYS-1.0.11
23:35:20 <SpComb^> I hope that isn't known-incompatible or something
23:35:35 <SpComb^> but man, bash version 2.04 is OLD
23:43:32 <PeterT> why did you do that, SpComb^
23:43:54 <PeterT> Now we have to deal with all the "I updated and it doesn't work" reports
23:45:19 <PeterT> binaries: binaries is missing in the topic
23:46:12 <SpComb^> PeterT: well, what's broken with it then?
23:48:14 <SpComb^> well, it seems to be not entirely out of place, patch seems to reject all hunks now
23:50:46 <SpComb^> I'd say that looks more like the the 1.0.11 version
23:50:57 <SpComb^> I'm guessing a line endings issue
23:51:07 <SpComb^> but it doesn't particularly make sense
23:56:39 <planetmaker> Don't underestimate line endings ;-)
23:57:21 <planetmaker> \n vs \r\n vs \r is the joy :-)
23:59:10 <OwenS> planetmaker: \r is dead :p
23:59:15 <SpComb^> well, it fails with a unix2dos'd .patch
23:59:35 <SpComb^> it gets the header right, and finds the file, but all hunks except those for empty files just fail
23:59:37 <planetmaker> OwenS: I know. Since MacOS X
23:59:54 <Rubidium> my patch just ignores line endings by default
continue to next day ⏵
