IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-03-04
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00:00:34 <Rubidium> planetmaker: good idea to keep the wiki small; would you remove all 32bpp related content from OpenTTD's wiki?
00:01:11 <planetmaker> not honestly, eh?
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00:04:27 <OwenS> This mirroring talk is just reminding me I have a new hard-disk to buy :-(
00:06:01 <OwenS> And that I'm going to have to pay for it to be overnighted :-(
00:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: how about giving the 32bpp people their own wiki?
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00:10:06 <planetmaker> DaleStan: could you please add two entries to the TOC of the newgrf wiki: Action0AirportTiles and VarAction2AirportTiles.
00:10:48 <planetmaker> DaleStan: The latter doesn't yet exist as it'd be identical to the industry tiles page, but each feature has its own. Or possibly rename the VarAction2 page accordingly
00:11:37 <Yexo> normal action2 for airporttiles is the same as normal action2 for houses and industry tiles
00:20:04 <planetmaker> Yes. That's why I didn't write anything there
00:20:18 <planetmaker> It could / should be mentioned there, I guess...
00:20:36 <Yexo> only thing that still needs updaitng is the callback list
00:20:46 <Yexo> I can do that myself in a minute
00:21:05 <planetmaker> I guess I shall go to bed in a few minutes ;-)
00:21:53 <Yexo> planetmaker: the newgrf makefile system doesn't recompile if only a pcx file is changed, correct?
00:22:02 <planetmaker> action0 is easy to find in the code, but I find the varactions2 notoriously bad to find...
00:22:08 <planetmaker> Yexo: it *should* recompile
00:22:23 <planetmaker> If it doesn't I failed half the reason to rewrite it.
00:22:30 <Yexo> oh, I was doing up+enter, but that was "hg push", not "make"
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00:24:12 <planetmaker> uff... then I don't need to loose complete faith in my ability to test what I just wrote ;-)
00:25:03 <planetmaker> and now good night :-)
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00:26:07 <roboboy> it seems DOS OpenTTD does not like HMMEM386 being loaded
00:26:53 <planetmaker> FILE_SRC_EXTENSIONS = pnfo template
00:26:59 <planetmaker> FILE_INC_EXTENSIONS = wav pcx
00:27:25 <planetmaker> ^ Yexo those are the lines which define the file extensions which are searched for further dependencies, the latter are terminal
00:27:27 <Yexo> small airport is now fully done, and it works (in trunk, not in 1.0)
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00:27:40 <planetmaker> defined in Makefile.config
00:30:38 <roboboy> hm I seems to have broken my DOS install of OpenTTD
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00:47:43 *** Rubidium changes topic to "0.7.5, 1.0.0-RC2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only"
00:50:55 <roboboy> is there any way I can record the dbg messages that come up when I load DOS OpenTTD? Can I redirect them to a text file or something as I do not get a chance to read them before they dissapear
00:51:48 <Yexo> openttd.exe 2> errors.txt
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01:41:53 <zachanima> is there an online changelog specifying the fixes in RC2?
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01:43:06 <aber> wow, deployed via load balancing :)
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02:09:01 <zachanima> out of curiosity, what is the difference between orig_dos_de.obg and orig_dos.obg?
02:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> a handful of changed sprites
02:11:21 <zachanima> hmm - and why is this?
02:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause> because they got sold this way in germany
02:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that was 15 years ago
02:13:05 <zachanima> right (gee, is it really that old?)
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02:27:43 <roboboy> openttd.exe > dbg.log and openttd.exe >> dbg.log both produced empty dbg.log files
02:30:56 <roboboy> is there any other way of recording the dbg messages that appear just before the mouse appears in DOS OpenTTD?
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03:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: > and >> only capture stdout, but all the debug stuff goes to stderr
03:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if dos already handles 2>
03:13:28 <roboboy> so how can I capture it?
03:13:40 <FauxFaux> NT and above have posix 2>.
03:13:53 <FauxFaux> No idea about actual dos. :)
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03:27:07 <roboboy> I shall try openttd.exe -d
03:27:41 <FauxFaux> roboboy: openttd.exe 2>dbg.log should work.
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03:41:22 * roboboy waits for DOS openttd to load
03:41:56 <roboboy> well I got it to exit cleanly by specifying the null driver for sound and music
03:42:45 * roboboy ponders putting a guide to DOS OpenTTD on the wiki
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03:46:56 <roboboy> nope openttd.exe 2> dbg.log just saved the equivelant to running openttd -h to dbg.log
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05:31:58 <ccfreak2k> <Yexo> maybe replace 2> by >
05:32:06 <ccfreak2k> Depends on if he wants stdout or stderr.
05:32:16 <ccfreak2k> Or, does DOS only have the one ppe?
05:32:24 <ccfreak2k> Does DOS even have redirection?
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08:06:21 * roboboy goes to fidle with dos
08:30:50 <peter1138> my answer's valid, right?
08:31:14 <peter1138> (overlapping tiles/sprites)
08:31:58 <Yexo> for overlapping ground sprites to wrok correctly I think the ground sprites will have to get a bounding box
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08:38:19 <peter1138> even then, if they still draw the grass like that, it will overlap the rail overlay
08:42:03 <planetmaker> Yexo: you'll need to pull your airports repo. Adding --gzip as tar option was a bad thing [TM] to do ;-)
08:42:37 <planetmaker> also: the airports with default ground tiles: looks awesome ingame :-)
08:44:56 <peter1138> planetmaker, you've put railtype prop 16 in the middle of prop 15
08:45:21 <planetmaker> attribute it to "too late for a good edit"
08:47:54 <peter1138> oops, it's 8:47 suddenly
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11:07:27 <Rubidium> Ammler: and simutrans is simulation, i.e. they're inconsistent
11:11:41 <Ammler> yeah, it seems like everyone can post there
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11:40:28 <PeterT> Yexo: Those airports look great!
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11:51:33 <Pikka> yexo, I is has question
11:52:15 <Pikka> is it possible/could it be possible to disable the default airports?
11:52:56 <Yexo> currently not, but I'm planning to implement that
11:53:17 <Pikka> okay, thanks :) as long as you're aware of it
11:53:55 <Yexo> I'm also trying to find a way to define extra layouts for the default airports, so they can be rotated
11:54:07 <Yexo> both require modifying the original airports
11:59:45 <Pikka> recode the original airports as newgrf airports in openttd.grf? :o
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12:00:10 <Yexo> that just leads to a whole lot of other problems
12:00:42 <Pikka> if you want to be able to define extra layouts, it's hard to see what other option would be possible...
12:01:13 <Yexo> make prop09 add layouts instead of overwriting the previous prop09
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12:03:12 <Yexo> in combination with a new prop 08 (id of original airport to modify, or FF to create a new airport) that would also solve your disable default airports problem
12:03:24 <Yexo> just set the start year to FFFF
12:05:10 * peter1138 is still annoying that all those extra layouts got added
12:05:40 <peter1138> the airports that richk added
12:06:00 <peter1138> the ones in current openttd, yes
12:06:08 <Yexo> metropolitan, international, etc.
12:08:21 <Yexo> without all those extra airports newgrf aiports would be a lot easier
12:10:25 <Rubidium> everything but the heliport, small, city and oil rig airport
12:13:22 <Pikka> so newgrf(air)ports is in trunk? and newrailtypes is going straight into 1.0.0? D:
12:14:01 * fjb misses some free space before and after the runway, so that the planes don't always hit the buildings. :-)
12:14:23 <Yexo> Pikka: no, so far only newgrf airporttiles
12:15:50 * Pikka is looking forward to redoing some sea-based industries as ship-only ports rather than oilrig stations
12:15:50 <peter1138> you're sad that newgrf railtypes is in, or sad that newgrf airports aren't? heh
12:16:13 <Pikka> peter: I'm surprised at both. :P and sad that newgrf airports aren't
12:16:35 <peter1138> newgrf railtypes has been around much longer, hehe
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12:17:25 <Ammler> (dunno, if that has changed in the meantime)
12:17:26 <peter1138> Yexo, squeeze it in to 1.0 :D
12:18:46 <wallyweb> Piyou do moderating?
12:19:18 <wallyweb> That question was for Pikka
12:19:18 <planetmaker> we only do excitation. Moderating is for graphite
12:19:25 <Pikka> I can only moderating the graphics forums
12:20:25 <wallyweb> hmm ... One of your topics, one of mine and one of DanMack's are all on the same subject.
12:23:01 <Pikka> I don't think any of those conversations are busy enough for it to be a problem... mb's right that it's not a newgrf technical discussion though.
12:23:44 <wallyweb> exactly and if it is to be moved then now would be the time to decide a proper location
12:23:46 <Andel> if there is a problem please report it though
12:23:53 <Andel> and mods will deal with it
12:24:18 <Pikka> I can drop it in ottd suggestions if that's alright with peter1138 and Rubidium et al :P
12:24:29 <wallyweb> hi Andel: Yes and agreed but who is to be the proper mod?
12:25:37 * wallyweb wonders if Andel does any moderating ;-)
12:25:54 <Pikka> the word global is much better when read as "globule"
12:25:55 <Andel> I do more than you know
12:26:16 <Pikka> Andel's a power-trippin' son of a mother, he moderates all over the place. ;)
12:26:20 <Andel> Globule refers to that little deposit that Grace left on my chest this morning
12:26:31 <wallyweb> Would you be up for one more assignment/request?
12:26:35 <Andel> yes Pikka... but I'm also a ninja
12:26:44 <Pikka> globule is a nice word to say
12:27:17 <Andel> I'm working at the moment
12:27:32 <Andel> I'm actually working on a contract worth about 200,000 a year....
12:28:03 <Pikka> wallyweb: I moved the thread to ottd suggestations
12:28:32 <Rubidium> ah, the big "duplicate and to-be-ignored threads"-bin
12:29:20 <Pikka> Rubidium: I always wondered why people post in the "Suggestions commonly asked for" thread
12:29:48 <Pikka> isn't what "commonly asked for" is a euphemism for obvious?
12:34:28 <wallyweb> And now I must be off. Thank you all and have a good day. :-D
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13:19:51 <Yexo> maybe you can help me with some of them
13:20:23 <Yexo> 1. Airport tiles have a property "hangar #", arent't the depot locations more a property of the airport?
13:21:47 <Yexo> all nodes have an x, y and z location. X and Y are relative to 0,0, but what is the reference point for z?
13:22:15 <Yexo> tile 0,0 is not always part of the airport, and if it's not part of the airport the height can change due to terraforming
13:23:22 <Yexo> possible solution: add a new property to airports: "XY offset from 0,0 to the tile that defines the base height for the airport"
13:24:59 <Pikka> "1. Airport tiles have a property "hangar #", arent't the depot locations more a property of the airport?": depots have no location as such (it would be possible to code an airport such that an aircraft can drive in the depot on one side of the airport and reappear on the other). the "hangar #" property of tiles means "open the hangar window when this tile is clicked on"
13:25:34 <Pikka> your possible solution to 2 sounds good :)
13:25:57 <Yexo> problem is that in openttd code hangars are linked to a tile
13:26:26 <Yexo> multi-tile hangars are done by opening the hangar window for the first tile that is part of the hangar
13:26:34 <Yexo> but ok, current solution should work
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14:40:34 <dih> i always think of Telemaxx when i see that nix
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14:49:55 <Belugas> been worse... but still
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14:54:15 <Timmaexx> lol my content downloader says he is on 104%
14:55:57 <__ln__> you seem to be feeding him well
14:56:36 <planetmaker> Timmaexx, you might investigate whether it needs some special circumstance to get that...
14:58:28 <planetmaker> the question is: does it happen always?
14:59:31 <Timmaexx> no sometimes he stops at 84%
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15:45:34 <Priski> wait, openttd does not work behind NAT?
15:46:37 <aber> Servers in general do not work behind nat, port forwarding is the key.
15:48:40 <Yexo> joining a multiplayer game should be no problem
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15:51:50 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:52:56 <dih> hehe - create some type of skype network handling :-P
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15:56:15 <aber> whats the difference between trunk and RC2?
15:57:22 <OwenS> aber: Trunk is ongoing development. RC2 is just bug fixes against RC1.
15:57:55 <Yexo> aber: all bugfixes in trunk will also be applied to 1.0, but (big) new features won't make it into 1.0
15:58:33 <planetmaker> aber, you can consider it two different repositories
15:59:44 <aber> id like to compile a new mac binary... the question is, what do i do? fixing the RC2 one or just compiling the trunk one.
16:01:48 <aber> changeset r19285 - Change [FS#3638]: add the default installation directory of lzo/zlib for Mac OS X/MinGW to the paths where (the headers of) those libraries are searched
16:02:54 <Belugas> that...is a commit log. there is something wrong about that?
16:03:01 <Yexo> looks like that was missed and should've been backported
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16:07:38 <Priski> My bad with that, I forgot that I had ghostwall installed and all inbound traffic is disabled by default unless there is exceptions
16:10:52 <planetmaker> aber, in any case that's not a problem which stops you compiling
16:11:05 <planetmaker> worst case is that you use ./configure --without-lzo2
16:13:43 <planetmaker> honestly, it doesn't hurt usually.
16:14:53 <peter1138> gah, who knows ntpd setup?
16:15:04 <peter1138> i want to stop it listening on each and every interface, if possible
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16:16:20 <Rubidium> Yexo: that's a tricky and largely untested patch; the last time I commited an OS X related patch it backfired (broke compilation for many)
16:17:09 <Eddi|zuHause> wait... the patch is not "well tested" by now? :p
16:17:55 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: last time it took a week or so before "they" came complain about the breakage
16:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> aber: it should be trivial to apply this patch to RC2
16:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference between 1.0 and trunk is not that big yet
16:19:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 192.458333333
16:19:28 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 4619/24/60
16:19:28 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 3.20763888889
16:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so of 4.6 days uptime, 3.2 days were used by one process...
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16:20:51 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: difference including or excluding language updates?
16:21:21 <Eddi|zuHause> excluding language ;)
16:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> at least those should not be relevant to osx compilation ;)
16:22:28 <peter1138> okay... how do i make a debian package from something?
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16:37:31 <Pikka> gentlemen... is it possible to disable the default rail types?
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16:38:28 <planetmaker> you could re-define them, Pikka
16:39:33 <Pikka> except that's not what I want to do ;)
16:39:38 <planetmaker> But I haven't seen a way to really disable it :-)
16:39:47 <planetmaker> Yes, I know that I answered another question than you asked ;-)
16:40:47 * Pikka places the question on the forums
16:41:23 * planetmaker wonders how many different rail types sets we'll see in, say, half a year :-)
16:41:52 * planetmaker also wonders whether we then can still imagine to have ever played without :-P
16:42:43 * Pikka wants to make a set with fewer railtypes, not more :P
16:43:33 <planetmaker> quite honestly: what's the point to *disable* types, if you don't re-define them?
16:43:53 <Pikka> because I'm making a train set with fewer railtypes
16:44:11 <planetmaker> yes. But... how does then, say, maglev hurt. It won't become active then anyway
16:44:19 <Yexo> planetmaker: I can image wanting to disable maglev if none of the trains use it
16:44:33 <Yexo> not that it makes a difference as it won't become available anyway
16:44:39 <planetmaker> Track types become available upon first use by a vehicle
16:44:40 <Pikka> well, one of the rail types I'm not using is "railway"/"railroad", so...
16:45:09 <planetmaker> Pikka, yes... no vehicle = no availability. Just make it also incompatible
16:45:10 <Yexo> I really wonder kind of set you're creating then
16:45:40 <planetmaker> And consider that there might be (concurrently) another train set which uses it.
16:46:04 <Pikka> I thought there was a setting which made rail always available, but maybe I dreamt it
16:46:19 <Pikka> Yexo: well may you wonder :)
16:46:37 <planetmaker> hm, dunno. Not if you make vehicles not use it. By default any rail vehicle, though, works on normal rail.
16:48:01 <Pikka> oh well, if there's no make rail available setting, I guess I can live with having it there but greyed out :)
16:48:31 <planetmaker> that keeps compatibility :-)
16:49:20 <planetmaker> Though I wonder whether it couldn't be changed within OpenTTD such that track types which are not (yet) available are not offered at all
16:49:31 <Pikka> planetmaker: compatibility won't really be an issue, it's a set that's not designed to work with any other existant set... a toyland replacement. :)
16:49:58 <planetmaker> Pikka, don't count on that remaining the only one forever :-)
16:50:09 <planetmaker> But I'm very happy to hear "for toyland" :-)
16:50:27 <Pikka> it's not "for toyland", it's a toyland /replacement/... :P
16:50:48 <Pikka> all vehicle types, landscape, industries, town buildings, the whole thing.
16:51:12 <Pikka> although it's not going to have many vehicles
16:51:19 <Pikka> hence the not needing all the track types! :)
16:52:07 <Pikka> oh: and stations, airports... :P
16:53:55 <planetmaker> May I ask in what kind of direction that replacement aims?
16:54:12 <planetmaker> (Ok, I may ask, but is there a chance for an answer? :p)
16:54:59 * OwenS thinks he needs to turn up the size of OSS' buffers
16:58:34 <OwenS> WTF is causing 48% of time to be spent in the kernel?!
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17:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: usually I/O stuff
17:15:23 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Thats some impressive IO on behalf of a package manager which was just supposed to be downloading SunStudio. On Solaris, which is I/O optimized..
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17:15:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and "downloading" is not I/O?
17:16:08 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Downloading from a 20Mbit/s connection should not cause 50% CPU usage I/O. Even rtorrent doesn't do that!
17:17:17 <Rubidium> 20Mbit/s isn't the problem, the 'random' behaviour of torrents is
17:17:33 <OwenS> Rubidium: This was a straight linear Package download over HTTP
17:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure, but with DMA turned off, I/O tops out at about 1.5MB/s here
17:18:09 <OwenS> DMA is most certainly on
17:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> what i mean: if it's badly programmed, then the behaviour can be explained
17:20:12 <OwenS> And additionally, it was making audio stutter. Audio comes of a separate RAID array...
17:20:37 <Rubidium> sounds like bad IO scheduling
17:21:46 <OwenS> I'm actually suspicious that the package manager spun off a background task to check for updates and that was thrashing the package database...
17:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> don't you have locks for that?
17:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause> a "lock" means: "if program A uses the package database, program B cannot access it"
17:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> aber: that looks totally plausible if you messed up loading savegames :p
17:34:53 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: It probably used a lock, but that doesn't prevent the PM from thrashing the HD with lots of seeks
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17:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... if one would make a railtype that is compatible with conventional, monorail and maglev, would the autoreplace window then allow replacing between these types?
17:52:34 <Yexo> only if those rypes are also directly compatible
17:52:55 <Yexo> but you could create a newgrf that makes normal rail compatible with monorail and maglev
17:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> so it does not check if there is a common successor, only direct successor
17:53:35 <Yexo> not 100% sure, but I suspect so
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18:00:11 <Luukland> Hi ha ho, could someone tell me when I set a basecosts of an engine in a .NFO, which setting will show me this value then? Running costs low, medium or high?
18:01:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Luukland: the difficulty setting is an additional multiplicator, is independent from the .nfo
18:01:50 <Luukland> then which setting multiplies it with 1x?
18:02:13 <Eddi|zuHause> is that relevant?
18:14:06 <Yexo> Luukland: medium = 1, low = 75%, high = 112.5%
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18:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r19314 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 7 changes by Gavin
18:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frisian - 43 changes by Fopper
18:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 13 changes by fumantsu
18:45:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by Petert
18:45:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 45 changes by dlunch
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19:32:51 <aber> I compiled trunk an the save-game loading is fine.
19:34:25 <Alberth> aber: you cannot disable industry closure in that way, in general
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19:35:28 <aber> Alberth: because grf's have their own way to handle this?
19:35:58 <Alberth> aber: yep, the game code only does what the industry wishes.
19:38:32 <Alberth> eg you will end up with primary industries providing virtually nothing
19:38:43 <Ammler> some people ask that openttd should be able to be extendable without patches, but then patch features which are already... :-)
19:39:34 <aber> hmm? What can i do to trash this patch?
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19:39:58 <Alberth> Ammler: perhaps rename 'advanced settings' back to 'patches'? :p
19:40:46 <Ammler> aber: a newgrf should do the job
19:40:51 <Alberth> aber: rm mypatch; svn revert -R .
19:42:14 <Ammler> aber: if you need a example how to change behaviour of inustries, you might take a look on my lumbermill.grf
19:42:15 <Yexo> aber: that patch indeed breaks savegame comptibility
19:42:41 <Yexo> the added lines in table/settings.h tell that allow_random_industry and allow_industry_closure are valid in savegame versions 99 to SL_MAX_VERSION
19:42:54 <Yexo> but currently trunk is at 138 already and those are certainly not valid in trunk
19:43:39 <Ammler> oh, indeed the famous froschyGRF :-)
19:44:05 <planetmaker> hello Alberth :-)
19:44:24 *** Yexo is now known as Guest204
19:44:56 <Alberth> Ammler: yes, too bad not enough people read FAQs
19:45:21 <planetmaker> if it weren't nearly obscene, it should be renamed to FIQ
19:45:29 <planetmaker> frequently ignored questions
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19:46:04 <Ammler> Alberth: I can't remember that GRF, always think, it is just a bad joke
19:46:04 <aber> It's not what i was looking for...
19:46:06 <planetmaker> well, in English might sound ok ;-). In German not :-P
19:47:05 <planetmaker> hello legal alien
19:47:12 <Illegal_Alien> Woohoo social contact
19:47:30 <Ammler> does the grf also add possibility that power stations close?
19:47:48 <frosch123> Ammler: it is approaching 1000 downloads without being on bananas :)
19:48:21 <Alberth> frosch123: maybe you should put it on bananas, it will enter at #1 :)
19:48:37 <planetmaker> frosch123, maybe add it to the fruit basket. Just call it differently :-P
19:48:59 <Ammler> I should add my nothing.grf
19:49:13 <planetmaker> oh yes. And I my newgrf_makefile newgrf
19:49:19 <planetmaker> An action8 and that's it :-P
19:49:24 <Alberth> Ammler: it will get downloaded, just my staircase heightmap
19:50:14 <frosch123> [20:51] <planetmaker> frosch123, maybe add it to the fruit basket. Just call it differently :-P <- "better industries" ?
19:50:41 <Illegal_Alien> Industrial Revolution sound way better :P
19:51:45 <Ammler> hehe, then you could make a tt-forums homepage and collect all "better" grf
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19:53:57 <frosch123> why do i suddenly have 3 grfs with an empty name in my list
19:54:21 <Alberth> you use " " as filename?
19:54:47 <frosch123> one of them is pb_viaduct
19:55:39 <frosch123> oh, you mean it used the filename before and now keeps blank
19:56:19 <Yexo> uh oh, looks like a bug from me
19:57:53 <Yexo> where can I find that pb_viaduct grf?
19:58:19 <frosch123> likely in pikkawiki
19:59:53 <Ammler> Is it still possible to make a grf without name?
20:00:17 <Ammler> wouldn't nforenum/grfocdec complain about?
20:00:29 <Yexo> grfcodec doesn't check these things
20:00:39 <Yexo> nforenum does complain, but you can create a grf without nforenum
20:03:51 <OwenS> OK why have we hung GEdit? /me longs for Kate
20:05:34 <OwenS> Oh so helpful. A D-Bus error while trying ti
20:05:38 <OwenS> save a file over SFTP...
20:07:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r19315 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix (r19295): Show the filename in the newgrf windows if the newgrf name is not empty
20:08:17 <Yexo> as an added bonus the grf is now correctly sorted (that is, the filename is compared with the other names) so the grf without filename doesn't always end up at the top of the list
20:08:55 <Illegal_Alien> Wtf is this for program on tv? :|
20:09:07 <Illegal_Alien> "Ella Enchanted"
20:09:21 <Illegal_Alien> Let me feels like i smoke some bad stuff...
20:09:31 <PeterT> A story about a women who actually does what she's told!
20:09:41 <PeterT> (Of course, it's a fairytale)
20:10:02 <Illegal_Alien> Yeah Elfs,... and talking books
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20:11:14 <Illegal_Alien> And why we always have bad stephmothers? :P
20:14:17 <Illegal_Alien> English not my language so :P
20:15:07 <Belugas> we all kow it's klingon
20:21:25 <PeterT> <Illegal_Alien> Yeah Elfs,... and talking books <-- I was talking about the women who do what they're told! :-P
20:22:20 <Illegal_Alien> Hmm, "take of cloths" why wont they say that? :(
20:22:31 <Illegal_Alien> or whatever grr
20:24:37 <Illegal_Alien> I am bored so random talking random thing with random subjects
20:28:53 <planetmaker> <frosch123> one of them is pb_viaduct <-- I had that yesterday, too
20:29:04 <planetmaker> (the empty names)
20:29:20 <frosch123> and you dit not report!
20:29:51 <planetmaker> I didn't investigate and was not sure :-)
20:30:05 <planetmaker> not even if it hadn't been that way before.
20:30:38 <planetmaker> and I was... debugging my makefiles. I wondered about 'invalid tar files' - which was a result of gzip'ed tar files
20:31:02 <planetmaker> Do I need to find more... excuses? ;-) I'm sure I can dig out more :-P
20:31:07 <Rubidium> hmm, so aber's 1.0.0-RC2 build is not an unmodified build? Then for my sake, and the sake of the rest of the development team, don't call it 1.0.0-RC2!
20:31:44 <Rubidium> planetmaker: 59 minutes ago
20:32:25 <Rubidium> I really really hope that that's not the way the mac port is going
20:33:51 <planetmaker> oh... I missed the nickname... looks too much like a well-known German word ;-)
20:34:54 <planetmaker> and yes... proper versioning makes so many things so much easier...
20:35:08 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yeah, those strange Germans
20:35:26 <planetmaker> Only surpassed by the Dutch strangeness :-P
20:35:31 <Rubidium> I reckon you would "pronounce" OpenTTD's version as first zeroth zeroth RC one
20:36:10 <planetmaker> Eins punkt Null punkt Eins RC Eins
20:36:12 <Illegal_Alien> Hey whats wrong with me as dutch guy? :P
20:36:36 <Rubidium> Illegal_Alien: Dutch people are stupid morons
20:36:58 <Illegal_Alien> Only if they wear white stuff on their head
20:37:03 * planetmaker ponders whether Illegal_Alien knows where Rubi is from
20:37:20 <frosch123> all dutch people have two letter abbreviations of their nick names
20:37:34 <Illegal_Alien> I want my bike back
20:37:45 <planetmaker> look in the local Gracht ;-)
20:37:50 <Rubidium> planetmaker: first column of the periodic table
20:37:51 <aber> Rubidium: It's not that I supply people with broken and patched things. It's only changed the config.lib, as mentioned.
20:38:05 <planetmaker> hehe @ Rubidium :-)
20:38:09 <Illegal_Alien> Dont have a gracht here, not living in Amsterdam (luckely)
20:38:26 <Rubidium> Illegal_Alien: maybe next to the church then?
20:38:29 <planetmaker> Illegal_Alien, I can swear to have seen them in many other Dutch towns, too ;-)
20:38:44 <Illegal_Alien> Yeah but not in mine :P
20:39:14 <Illegal_Alien> The germans have destroyed most of the city few decades back
20:39:24 <Hirundo> Don't mention the war!
20:39:48 <Illegal_Alien> I didnt say war
20:41:07 <Hirundo> You can generally get away with mentioning it once, though ;)
20:41:26 <Rubidium> if it wasn't the war... then he must live in Zeeland or so
20:42:28 <Illegal_Alien> it was the war, just want to say thats why we dont have those things :P
20:43:16 * planetmaker wonders why that might be a good excuse to fill them _after_ the war.
20:43:33 <Illegal_Alien> They have been filled by the rubble of the buildings
20:44:04 <Rubidium> actually, I don't think that's true
20:44:15 <planetmaker> Hardly a good excuse to say they were gone because of that ;-) It's water...
20:44:31 <Illegal_Alien> Well, we dont have them :P
20:44:34 <planetmaker> Not like you have little of it ;-)
20:45:51 <Alberth> who needs Grachten when you have one of the biggest harbours?
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20:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> to connect the harbour with the inner country?
20:47:29 <Alberth> no, for finding your bike of course
20:48:01 <Illegal_Alien> Dont need those for that, the river Maas is going through the city.
20:49:57 <Hirundo> The dutch invented triathlon this way: going to a gracht on foot and returning by bike ;)
20:51:21 <planetmaker> Sounds even credible :-P
20:51:30 <Rubidium> Illegal_Alien: and the irony is that normally the "Oude Maas" and "Nieuwe Maas", which you meant with "Maas", is not fed by the actual "Maas" but by the "Rhine"
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20:53:24 <Ammler> rhine? good swiss water :-)
20:54:19 <Rubidium> Ammler: I doubt that you want to call it "good swiss water" there where it leaves Germany
20:54:40 <planetmaker> Might have been fed through a few nuclear power plants on the way :-P
20:54:55 <planetmaker> or through BASF or Hoechst industrial facilities ;-)
20:55:14 <Ammler> but it should be "clean" leaving CH, I hope ;-)
20:55:30 <planetmaker> sure ;-) Seweso...
20:56:06 <planetmaker> hm... wrong plant. But there was one ;-)
20:57:26 <Ammler> google for "Rhein Gift" hits list links
20:57:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: that is because that's before it goes through major industrial cities :p
20:58:09 <Ammler> oh, Basel is almost German
20:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the only "interesting" part of the rhine on swiss territory is the "rhine fall"
20:59:00 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster
21:00:20 <frosch123> [22:00] <Ammler> oh, Basel is almost German <- gaddafi?
21:01:41 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, Basel Bad. Bhf is technically german territory on swiss soil
21:02:40 *** Grelouk has joined #openttd
21:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently these Badensians didn't manage to build their railway on their own territory :p
21:03:24 <planetmaker> why use your own, if you can use another person's? ;-)
21:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> they had some problems because of that during the war...
21:08:34 <Ammler> and the airport is on French territory?
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21:35:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r19316 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19186): Give correct error when failing to flatten land.
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21:46:00 <Fuzz> I don't suppose someone can help me with something?
21:46:16 <Alberth> 'something' may be a bit difficult
21:46:29 <Eddi|zuHause> getting ahold of "someone" might be, too
21:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> he's a very busy person
21:46:47 <Alberth> yeah, he never seems to be here when you need him :)
21:46:50 <Rubidium> Alberth: but "someone" can do "everything", or at least gets assigned to do "everything"
21:46:52 <Fuzz> i called ahead but he wasn't in
21:47:26 <Alberth> Rubidium: we don't have him in our 'assign' list in FS yet :(
21:47:41 <PeterT> Do you realize you spent two minutes discussing how he asked something?
21:47:53 <PeterT> Fuzz: What's your question?
21:47:57 <PeterT> Oh, right, #openttd...
21:48:14 <Fuzz> do you know how to get the original music working in the beta?
21:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: it's not like we had something else to base a discussion on.
21:48:18 <Fuzz> or even if it's possible?
21:48:33 <PeterT> just put the original_windows music in /gm
21:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuzz: original music from windows, yes, from dos, no
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21:49:25 <Fuzz> oringal_windows is a folder?
21:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: /gm is most definitely not the right folder
21:54:35 <Fuzz> well that was certainly odd
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21:55:12 <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: That's where my game music is, and it works.
21:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuzz: "no route to host" means that someone yanked the ethernet cable ;)
21:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: no, you mean $personal_dir/gm
21:55:47 <Fuzz> It was when i closed openttd
21:56:10 <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: Right, well, that was implied
21:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: no, that is not.
21:56:28 <PeterT> if you've read the wiki, /gm, /data, all in personal dir
21:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> /gm is a subdirectory of the root directory
21:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuzz: no, in ~/.openttd/gm
21:57:33 <Fuzz> it's in /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd/gm
21:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuzz: and that is also where the openttd binary is?
21:59:07 <Rubidium> Fuzz: in the "game options" menu, can you select "original windows"?
21:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then it doesn't find the files
21:59:49 <Fuzz> well the file is called orig_win.obm
21:59:56 <Fuzz> should i rename it or something?
22:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that should be fine
22:00:57 <Fuzz> it's very odd, it just doesn't see the option for it
22:01:12 <Rubidium> if it doesn't list it, then it can't find it
22:01:39 <Fuzz> well, it's in the right folder :/
22:02:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuzz: you sure you have the windows music?
22:02:44 <KenjiE20> if config in that dir too?
22:03:31 <Fuzz> i don't have the windows music straight off the disc
22:03:52 <Fuzz> but they've got the correct file names
22:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> filename does not suffice, it must be the correct file
22:04:31 <Fuzz> it might not be exactly the same file
22:04:36 <Fuzz> but the music itself is identical
22:04:39 <planetmaker> md5sums have to match
22:04:39 <Eddi|zuHause> gm_tt00.gm must be 29714 byte and have the correct md5 sum
22:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the md5sum is given in the .obm file
22:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to change those, if you want modified files
22:05:23 <Fuzz> it is exactly 29714 bytes
22:05:47 <planetmaker> md5sum <filename>
22:06:03 <Rubidium> what version of OpenTTD are you using?
22:06:36 <Rubidium> which of the 4 "latest" ones?
22:06:36 <planetmaker> yes. whatever is it?
22:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> none of the "latest" ones are "beta"
22:07:47 <Fuzz> version 1.0.0 beta 4 i do believe
22:07:55 <Fuzz> it was the only one i could get to work
22:08:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuzz: update to 1.0.0-RC2 if possible
22:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuzz: anyway, did you check the md5sum?
22:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> must be 45cfec1b9d8c7a0ad45e755833cbf221 for gm_tt00.gm
22:10:49 <Fuzz> 45cfec1b9d8c7a0ad45e755833cbf221 GM_TT00.GM
22:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's correct then
22:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i've run out of things to check then...
22:12:18 <KenjiE20> is the config at /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd/openttd.cfg ?
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22:13:34 <Fuzz> you know, i don't think i have an openttd.cfg
22:13:46 <KenjiE20> it'll be in ./.openttd/ then
22:14:02 <KenjiE20> which might be why it's not working
22:14:11 <planetmaker> it should still work then
22:14:16 <KenjiE20> since I'm 90% sure everything is relative to the active cfg
22:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> KenjiE20: no, that should not be
22:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> KenjiE20: only the config location is checked first
22:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> then it should traverse the other locations
22:15:00 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but the music set used is stored in the cfg...
22:15:09 <KenjiE20> hm, it does seem to differ between elements though
22:15:12 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: irrelevant
22:15:19 <Fuzz> you're right it's in ./.openttd
22:15:30 <planetmaker> what would then happen, if I used the same for another instance of OpenTTD, Eddi|zuHause ?
22:15:42 <planetmaker> Fuzz: then copy your music files to ~/.openttd/gm
22:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: again, it's irrelevant for _finding_ the music files
22:15:58 <planetmaker> create that dir, if it doesn't exist
22:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> also copying them should not be necessary!
22:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a workaround at best, it does not solve the actual problem!
22:16:48 <planetmaker> so you know the problem? ;-)
22:17:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the problem is the files are there, and openttd does not finde them.
22:18:01 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: they should be in .../openttd/bin/gm
22:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no that is not a requirement!!
22:18:26 <planetmaker> uhm... being in one of the right dirs is.
22:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: he said it's the location of the binary
22:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> which is one of the "right" dirs
22:19:29 <planetmaker> binarydir/gm is. Not binarydir itself
22:20:40 <Fuzz> so have we got anywhere? xD
22:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i can't read people's minds, so if they don't tell stuff, that is their problem. but that is no reason to force them to move stuff to other places that should not be necessary
22:21:04 <planetmaker> Did you by chance read readme section 4.2, Fuzz ?
22:21:35 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: asking them to move it to their personal global dir hardly is wrong usually
22:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that still is a workaround, it does not isolate the original problem.
22:22:17 <planetmaker> it's a do-not-readme.
22:22:35 <dih> yeah - never even think about touching that file
22:22:37 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes. Possibly true. But then it needs reproduction anyway.
22:23:50 <planetmaker> Otherwise it's a "works for me"
22:24:10 <planetmaker> then it really gets interesting
22:25:35 <planetmaker> Any of those mentioned dirs is fine
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22:26:28 <Fuzz> it mentions this 5. The installation directory (Linux only) Linux: /usr/share/games/openttd
22:26:40 <Fuzz> while mine is /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd
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22:27:18 <planetmaker> where is your actual binary? Exactly in ~/Games/openttd ?
22:27:33 <planetmaker> and the *gm files are in ~/Games/openttd/gm ?
22:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuzz: if you run "openttd -d misc=4", what are the first 5 lines?
22:28:02 <Fuzz> ok hold on i'll find out
22:28:51 <Fuzz> dbg: [misc] /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd/ added as search path dbg: [misc] /home/fuzzwig/.openttd/ added as search path dbg: [misc] /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd/ added as search path dbg: [misc] /usr/local/share/games/openttd/ added as search path dbg: [misc] /home/fuzzwig/.openttd/ found as personal directory
22:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks correct
22:29:43 <Rubidium> does it work if you rename ~/Games to ~/games ?
22:30:16 <Fuzz> i'll have to change my bash but ok
22:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> my next suspicion would be that it doesn't like uppercase filenames... (they're called tt_gm00.gm here)
22:31:40 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: uppercase filenames are fine
22:32:12 <Fuzz> changing to games didn't help
22:33:29 <Fuzz> yeah in the .obm file they have upper case letters anyway
22:33:41 <Rubidium> then I've got no clue anymore, besides missing files/incorrect checksums
22:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: debug output doesn't really tell which files it is touching...
22:34:19 <Eddi|zuHause> dbg: [grf] Checking /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/bin/gm/orig_win.obm for base music set
22:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> dbg: [grf] Adding original_windows (1) as base music set
22:34:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the only thing it says
22:37:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuzz: can you check the md5sum of all .gm files, and compare the values with the ones in orig_win.obm?
22:37:46 <Fuzz> is there a way to check them all at once?
22:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> like "md5sum *.gm"
22:40:12 <Fuzz> some of them appear to be in the wrong order
22:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't matter
22:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause> except you mean, they were renamed
22:41:37 <Fuzz> the actual order is [md5s] GM_TT00.GM = 45cfec1b9d8c7a0ad45e755833cbf221 GM_TT01.GM = ab14ed3392d848abd2a2e90a9d75d121 GM_TT02.GM = dd4f696e4be5987ce738257b08b50171 GM_TT03.GM = a1bfde23343df9e4063419bf29c166b8 GM_TT04.GM = 4e6943aa0c455203d76c79389054747d GM_TT05.GM = cee281cb85a2e2343552d97640545a47 GM_TT06.GM = 26d1de5efa8675f94065784e9d539e49 GM_TT07.GM = 6f2691e17558f552ec4c565e4ab7139c GM_TT08.GM = a42bf2cb3340a822f1a69646fc7a4
22:41:55 <Fuzz> mine is 45cfec1b9d8c7a0ad45e755833cbf221 GM_TT00.GM dd4f696e4be5987ce738257b08b50171 GM_TT01.GM a1bfde23343df9e4063419bf29c166b8 GM_TT02.GM 1b23eebb0796c1ab99cd97fa7082cf7b GM_TT03.GM 6f2691e17558f552ec4c565e4ab7139c GM_TT04.GM eb35761a58a8df3c59ed8929cce13916 GM_TT05.GM 4e6943aa0c455203d76c79389054747d GM_TT06.GM 7aec079e15bd09588660b85545ac4dfc GM_TT07.GM 26d1de5efa8675f94065784e9d539e49 GM_TT08.GM 4ce707a0e0e72419f0681dd9
22:42:06 <Fuzz> so it's in a different order
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22:42:51 <planetmaker> 01 is already wrong or different
22:43:23 <Fuzz> *sigh* a long tedious process of renaming
22:43:52 <Fuzz> unless i just modify the md5s instead
22:44:02 <planetmaker> it's about ~20 files...
22:44:06 <planetmaker> Better rename the files
22:44:32 <aber> or re download them *hust*
22:44:35 <planetmaker> or you'll do the same with the next update of OpenTTD
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22:45:12 <planetmaker> or use OpenMSX-or-how-that-shall-be-named ;-)
22:46:06 <Fuzz> when i first downloaded them they were all called ttd00.mid
22:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> without telling us whether renaming worked?
22:47:08 <Fuzz> well i've got school tomorrow
22:47:30 <Fuzz> it'll take forever to rename them
22:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> what? you can do that in one line of bash script ;)
22:48:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you have the output of md5sum and the correct mapping in orig_win.obm
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22:50:21 <Fuzz> i think they all need to swap about
22:50:32 <Fuzz> and i don't know how to do that save manual
22:52:01 <planetmaker> better use aunty google to get them anew
22:52:15 <Fuzz> my GM_TT12.GM was named GM_TT12.gm
22:52:42 <Fuzz> but still half of them are wrong
22:53:59 <Fuzz> right well seriously i have to go
22:54:05 <Fuzz> but i'll try renaming them later
22:54:32 <Fuzz> thanks for your help so far everyone, if it doesn't work i'll probably pop back at some point
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22:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> md5sum *.GM | awk '{ printf "%s ", $2; system( "grep " $1 " orig_win.obm | cut -d= -f1") }' <--- this should give the correct mapping
22:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> wrong-file correct-file
23:00:56 <planetmaker> unfortunately 3 minutes too late :S
23:01:15 <OwenS> Ugh, I have some code which has a mixture of tab and space indentation. For extra fun, it's Python
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23:02:40 <FauxFaux> Convert it to just tabs, it makes the python people cry.
23:02:51 <OwenS> I'm converting it to just spaces tyvm :p
23:04:46 <FauxFaux> Aww, 3 isn't even the right number.
23:06:33 <OwenS> Hehe, a quick s/\t/ / fixed it :p
23:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause> for extra fun, correct indentation for people who have tab width 4 :p
23:10:08 <OwenS> It was my own code. Must have been using a misconfigured Kate at the time
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23:13:41 <peter1138> istr python only liked tabs at one point
23:15:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be a long time ago
23:17:03 <peter1138> tabs > spaces, anyway
23:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> not if python is so bitchy about correct indentation
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23:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the problem, the first person with misconfigured editor will irreparably screw up your code...
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23:20:21 <peter1138> well the solution to that is to just kill them
23:23:00 <SpComb^> ln -sf /usr/bin/kill-all-my-processes-and-force-log-out /usr/bin/$EDITORNAME
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23:47:27 <Eddi|zuHause> how about an action 2 for tunnel entrances that takes 8 sprites (front wall/top and back wall, 4 directions) and then a varaction 2 for ground type/climate?
23:48:31 <planetmaker> what about base set differences, Eddi|zuHause ?
23:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: grf parameter?
23:49:04 <planetmaker> ugly for you or for me? Not nice really
23:49:46 <planetmaker> it'd be the reverse direction the airports just moved with their ground tiles.
23:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't think the problem is that big
23:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the "feature" that you are referring to also only works with unmodified base tiles, for any graphical modifications that will again clash
23:51:33 <planetmaker> it works with overlays.
23:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but there are things that don't work with a simple overlay
23:52:47 <planetmaker> One of the purposes of railtypes is to actually _remove_ the dependency on the ground tiles
23:53:12 <planetmaker> introducing in now through the backdoor via tunnels again is a bit ... strange
23:53:18 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that simply does not work with tunnel entrances
23:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: at no point in my suggestion did "railtype" come into play
23:54:03 <planetmaker> that's why "currently tunnel graphics are actually provided by the landscape" makes sense
23:54:36 <planetmaker> yes, in the topic title. It gives somewhat the natural reference, eh?
23:56:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: peter1138 said rail sprite on tunnel entrances is already an overlay, this is about a way to let newgrfs change the tunnel entrance itself
23:57:08 <planetmaker> yes. He said that the entrance is now a landscape thingy
23:57:20 <planetmaker> Making it a rail types thingy breaks landscape compatibility
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