IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-12-17
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01:38:36 <Bryan> trying to think if i should trust the ttd registry settings its attempting the install is attempting to change
01:40:13 <PeterT> Are you installing OpenTTD?
01:40:21 <Bryan> well it depends on the original ttd?
01:40:46 <PeterT> Yes, but you don't need to edit the registry settings for OTD
01:41:03 <Bryan> it asks for a ttd directory during the installation
01:41:42 <PeterT> So point it to where you've downloaded the files
01:41:54 <PeterT> (the folder called "transport tycoon" or something like that)
01:42:18 <Bryan> just point out an install folder?
01:44:06 <Bryan> cannot continue without ttd location, i cant install ttd without changing registry settings apparently -_-
01:46:07 <PeterT> You have downloaded the zip file from owen rudge's site, yes or no?
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01:49:07 <PeterT> Just make sure you unzip, then point OpenTTD to the directory called Transport Tycoon (within the main folder)
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04:53:43 <terinjokes> sigh... i'm guessing asking for some help with odcctools is a bit pointless in here
05:02:17 <terinjokes> TrueBrain: you active?
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07:16:01 <Rubidium> terinjokes: what's it what you want to ask?
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07:34:00 <mirQus> Have you had a moment to look at FS#2806? I still have some time today so I could fix any style issues if the implementation looks reasonable.
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08:01:19 <planetmaker> mirQus: and how do I as player define the "primary" cargo?
08:02:06 <planetmaker> or asked differently: will something change for me, if I don't need that?
08:12:07 <TrueBrain> terinjokes: and at what hour you want to ask
08:18:58 <TrueBrain> snow snow snow snow snow
08:24:12 * planetmaker wants snow here, too
08:24:28 <planetmaker> though... if you have snow today, I'll have it tomorrow or so ;-)
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08:25:58 <peter1138> mwahahahahahahahahaha
08:26:10 * peter1138 posts the train control patch, just to tease nekomaster
08:27:36 * planetmaker looks for the ear plugs to shut out his whining for a binary
08:28:49 <Rubidium> ooh... you got a second sun?
08:28:51 <mirQus> planetmaker: You build more wagons than other cargo. :)
08:29:07 <mirQus> Er. ... than for other cargo. :)
08:30:02 <mirQus> planetmaker: The defaults don't change in the today's version, so if you don't need the feature you can easily ignore it.
08:30:05 <Terkhen> a binary and an update of 11000 revisions... that will need a lot of whining
08:31:17 <Rubidium> ah bah... it's still to early for me
08:31:30 <mirQus> BTW, if you want some snow, there's plenty in Warsaw now. ;)
08:33:24 <planetmaker> hm... so snow West of me, East of me, but non here, just frigging cold
08:33:34 <planetmaker> Alas... out in the cold now :-)
08:34:39 <mirQus> Though the snow here is not good enough to make a snowman. :/
08:35:41 <roboboy> Shame I don't even get snow in my part of the world
08:36:05 <mirQus> roboboy: You could make some in refrigerator. ;)
08:38:35 <mirQus> Freeze a lot of water, and then 'make it like a sand' (I can't recall a proper verb for it).
08:41:44 <mirQus> Or boil the water to make a lot of steam and pump it to the cold. That would probably be better 'quality' snow, but also a lot more expensive to make. ;)
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08:49:16 <Noldo> just spay water in to cold air
08:49:42 <Noldo> that's what they do in ski resorts
08:53:18 <mirQus> So, the refrigerator holds in hot parts of the world. ;)
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09:28:42 <peter1138> hehe, 5 fools downloaded it ;)
09:29:55 <blathijs> peter1138: Downloaded what?
09:33:13 <peter1138> my old train control patch
09:33:31 <peter1138> some fool was desperate for it, so i posted it for the first time
09:34:37 <roboboy> grr this laptop is so annoying
09:35:30 <Rubidium> peter1138: but it applies fine to 0.5
09:37:05 <Rubidium> it even compiles without warnings
09:48:45 <planetmaker> peter1138, I guess looking at it counts as download...
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11:39:52 <peter1138> idiot posted a binary
11:41:37 <Rubidium> peter1138: does it contain COPYING and such?
11:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so how long until someone complains "i cannot load my safegame"?
11:42:51 <TrueBrain> safegame? New kind of safety?
11:45:31 <TrueBrain> 5M downloads on BaNaNaS :) :) :)
11:46:01 <TrueBrain> and not 'that' old, as it is just 74k over it
11:46:31 <peter1138> 0 downloads on uk.binaries.openttd.org :P
11:46:43 <TrueBrain> mirror system is still not live, yes
11:47:20 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: what changed on the 2nd of November? Stats normally showed a good multiple in 'sites' against 'visitors', but since the 2nd of Nov it no longer does ...
11:48:05 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: no clue; maybe the proxy was introduced then?
11:48:33 <TrueBrain> that was longer ago, not?
11:49:30 <TrueBrain> 13% of the request is either 403 or 404 ...
11:49:46 <TrueBrain> 1% is still hammering a long-gone RSS feed ...
11:50:31 <TrueBrain> and less than 0.5% was due to malfunctioning of a httpd (somewhere between proxy and end-httpd)
11:51:55 <TrueBrain> and the 'country' pie is WEIRD
11:52:24 <TrueBrain> come over here, and you can ge tsome; I have to warn you, we have much less snow here
11:52:55 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: what's so weird about the pie?
11:53:38 <TrueBrain> Germany #2 in Nov and Dec
11:54:05 <TrueBrain> but France dropped to #8
11:54:35 <Rubidium> maybe there was some French site that hotlinked our logo?
11:56:01 <Rubidium> Germany has been in the top #3 for the whole of 2009, so the second place isn't that odd
11:56:02 <dihedral> hehe - running codeswarm at work.... the repo has 46k revs and more :-D
11:56:20 <TrueBrain> Nov 08: 280k unique visitors
11:56:25 <TrueBrain> Nov 09: 306k unique visitors
11:56:53 <Rubidium> oh, maybe that was when we had that dos?
11:57:40 <Rubidium> well... the site was slow and such; a dos that didn't quite cut it
11:59:32 <dihedral> <TrueBrain> we had one? :p <- probably some 13 year old who's patch was not accepted :-P
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13:06:39 <terinjokes> TrueBrain, et al: Sorry, I was asleep ;) I've got some questions about what versions of software you have building the Mac Nightlies
13:07:54 <terinjokes> Another person and I from #wxwidgets over on Freenode (we seem to have glued the network back together, heh) can't reproduce anything you have documented
13:11:46 <terinjokes> (and I read the warning, and was hoping you would be understanding)
13:19:14 <planetmaker> terinjokes, it's a patched gcc compiler doing its work in a VM which runs a flavour of linux IIRC
13:19:31 <planetmaker> with the apple APIs installed *somewhere*
13:37:42 <welshdragon> timetabling my trams has tsopped them bunching
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13:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you still lack autoseparation, but at least you can do manual separation now
13:51:31 <blathijs> DaleStan: I'm having a bit of trouble compiling nforenum, apparently <cstdio> must be included in pseudo.cpp
13:53:15 <blathijs> DaleStan: I also need "const" in the declaration of "temp" on getopt.cpp:501
13:54:49 <planetmaker> blathijs, what compiler do you use and what version?
13:55:08 <planetmaker> and what does you makefile.local tell you?
13:56:37 <planetmaker> gcc (SUSE Linux) 4.3.1 20080507 (prerelease) [gcc-4_3-branch revision 135036] <-- doesn't complain
13:58:00 <Ammler> !s/I/fedora maintainers/ ;-)
14:00:07 <planetmaker> hm... what compiler do you use that you need it, Ammler ? I just wonder...
14:00:55 <peter1138> gcc 4.4.x, one would assume from the file name
14:01:23 <Ammler> the patch is backwards compatible, also older gcc works with it.
14:02:04 <Ammler> (I just took the patch from fedoraproject.org)
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14:10:56 <planetmaker> he... yes, those who can read are at a distinct advantage :S
14:12:46 <blathijs> planetmaker: gcc version 4.4.2 (Debian 4.4.2-5)
14:19:46 <Ammler> blathijs: is that also backwards compatible?
14:20:39 <Ammler> I could test it on obs, if you want...
14:23:27 <blathijs> Ammler: Dunno, I'd expect so. I don't think that reference is directly related to gcc releases or something.
14:23:39 <blathijs> Ammler: If you could test, please do
14:24:04 <Ammler> well, what do I need to change on the patch?
14:25:00 <Rubidium> blathijs' diff doesn't look terribly 'older compilers are going to fail on this'
14:25:43 <TrueBrain> (it is fully based on above mentioned documentation)
14:27:01 <Ammler> [15:24] <Rubidium> blathijs' diff doesn't look terribly 'older compilers are going to fail on this' <-- where do I find that?
14:27:44 <peter1138> include cstdio instead of fstream
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14:42:13 <blathijs> Ammler: Yeah, what peter1138 said
14:42:54 <Ammler> yep, I already run it that way seems to work down to all distros on obs
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14:43:43 <Luukland> Is it correct that wood isn't the best product to transport in desert environment? I look at the cargo graph and diamonds is now first?
14:45:13 <blathijs> Is there any chance real releases of nforenum will be done in the future?
14:47:59 <Ammler> well, renum isn't the only one, the other "tools" don't have real releases either (cat|grfcodec
14:48:45 <Rubidium> nforenum and grfcodec have had real releases. catcodec won't get them
14:49:33 <Ammler> blathijs: don't you have boost issues with renum building?
14:50:06 <Rubidium> so you might need to use 3.4.6-r2267-1 as version
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14:53:52 <blathijs> Rubidium: I'm going for 3.4.6+svn2267-1
14:54:02 <blathijs> Ammler: And no, no boost issues, no
14:54:30 <planetmaker> blathijs, that sounds like a terrible versioning scheme. Just the svn version suffices
14:54:55 <planetmaker> It has A LOT of changes wrt 3.4.6. It's like similar to 2.0 and current nightlies for TTDP
14:55:01 <blathijs> planetmaker: What if 3.4.7 is released?
14:55:21 <blathijs> Or 3.5 for that matter?
14:55:41 <Rubidium> or 3.5 which is a branch? and 3.5.3 gets a revision higher that 3.6?
14:56:10 <blathijs> Rubidium: Fair point indeed :-)
14:56:33 <Ammler> at least the + is better than -
14:56:53 <planetmaker> blathijs, does that matter, if you only use the svn version number r2267?
14:56:58 <planetmaker> That doesn't matter then...
14:57:15 <blathijs> planetmaker: As Rubidium pointed out, svn revisions might not be ordered properly
14:57:52 <blathijs> planetmaker: Also, if nforenum does regular releases again, it is quite confusing if those released version numbers are not used in the Debian package...
14:58:15 <Madis> how are the mini santas called in English
14:58:26 <Madis> the ones who help him with gift wrapping etc.
14:59:16 <blathijs> Madis: Santa's helpers, or his elves? (elfs?)
15:00:23 <Ammler> Madis: you call those "mini santas"?
15:01:27 <Ammler> are you working on a "special christmas grf"?
15:01:50 <Madis> no, ammler, we call them "päkapikud"
15:02:43 <Madis> päkapikk means word to word translated, foot-length
15:03:09 <Rubidium> hmmestonianiswrittenwithoutspaces?
15:03:31 <Madis> but we have a lot of words which are written together
15:03:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidiumyoueverreadgerman? :p
15:04:03 <Madis> Estonian language is heavily influenced by German ;P
15:04:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i believe that
15:04:25 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: sadly enough, yes
15:05:32 <Rubidium> guess that's something that happens when you're a 42 minute walk away from Germany
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15:06:08 <Ammler> blathijs: comfimed your patch works as fine as the fedora one...
15:06:28 <Madis> btw, we even call Germany "Saksamaa", from the Saxony..
15:06:41 <blathijs> Ammler: k, thanks. Now dalestan should apply it and all will be well :-)
15:06:46 <Madis> another word written together
15:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "päkapikk" <-- does that have any relation to "pikachu" ;)
15:08:17 <Madis> päkk is a dialect word for foot and pikk means long
15:09:04 <Madis> but päkapikk has become a word of it's own.. not so much a word made of two words
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15:09:11 <Madis> the meaning of it anyway
15:13:00 <blathijs> Is DaleStan still maintainer of the the nforenum code?
15:13:06 <Ammler> blathijs: you added boost to renum manually or how does it work on the old debian with boost < 1.39?
15:13:20 <blathijs> Ammler: I've only tried on unstable
15:13:39 <blathijs> Then I'll wait until he shows up again. The COPYING file could use some clarification :-)
15:14:22 <Rubidium> looks GPLv2-ish, or isn't it exactly GPLv2?
15:17:03 <planetmaker> blathijs, you should post that in the tt-forums nforenum thread
15:17:10 <planetmaker> He seems to regularily read that
15:17:18 <planetmaker> At least that's my experience when I posted there.
15:17:28 <planetmaker> Unlike recently the grfcodec thread, though :S
15:17:35 <Rubidium> Ammler: blathijs isn't working on packaging it for old Debians
15:18:44 <Madis> Ammler should I be working on a Christmas grf?
15:19:07 <Rubidium> goooood afternoon Belugas... now I'm having the joys of solid rain too
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15:19:42 <Madis> Rubidium what's the temperature over there?
15:22:53 <Rubidium> in here it's like 290-293 K
15:23:47 <blathijs> Rubidium: It just contains the GPLv2, along with the appendix saying "you should add a note specifying which version of the GPL to use"
15:24:55 <blathijs> Rubidium: It should say "Licensed under GPLv2 or later, GPLv2 is included here", like some/most?/all? source files say?
15:25:18 <Rubidium> ah, anyhow... COPYING is almost the same as OpenTTD's COPYING
15:25:46 <Rubidium> minus the address change, name change of LGPL and making Y2K 'compatible'
15:26:10 <blathijs> Rubidium: Yeah, but OpenTTD has a readme.txt with the licensing info
15:27:15 <Rubidium> ah, okay... so just a simple line saying: "This is licensed under version X of GPL, see COPYING.txt"
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15:27:51 <Rubidium> hmm, is catcodec doing that?
15:28:42 <blathijs> Dunno, I started with the nforenum since that was the first thing opengfx complained about :-)
15:29:14 <Rubidium> oh, catcodec doesn't seem to have a readme
15:29:37 <Rubidium> it does mention the GPL version in each source file and in it's help
15:29:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: 290K indoor? that's fairly cold
15:31:45 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: does it need to be that warm in a room I don't use?
15:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> when you say "in here", that would indicate that you use the room ;)
15:32:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and rooms that i don't use are way colder
15:32:53 <Rubidium> oh, well... I reckon that near the ventilation it's 290K
15:33:52 <Rubidium> blathijs: is a readme necessary for OpenTTD? It has a manpage to compensate though
15:34:41 <blathijs> Rubidium: Eh? OpenTTD already has a readme?
15:34:57 <blathijs> Rubidium: If you're referring to catcodec, I think it's useful to have a central place with license info
15:34:57 <Rubidium> blathijs: s/OpenTTD/catcodec/ :)
15:35:25 <blathijs> Rubidium: In every file is good, but it's not really useful if one has to manually check all files to be sure :-)
15:35:50 <blathijs> But a note on top of COPYING would probably be fine as well
15:36:08 <blathijs> (And removing the appendix from the GPL might be useful to prevent confusion, also for OpenTTD)
15:36:22 <Rubidium> but that wouldn't be packaged for Debian
15:38:51 <Rubidium> cp /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL-2 COPYING && svn diff -x -b <- is empty, meaning it's the same to Debian's, which is probably better than "it's not the same", because then you'd have to research what changed etc.
15:43:36 <blathijs> Rubidium: Fair point, so a README is better, I guess
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16:01:31 <sparrL> I am playing with large junction design for the first time. here is 1/4 of a LLL_RRR spiral hub for 3-tile trains. total size 65x65 with an 18x18 hole in the middle. thoughts, corrections? http://i45.tinypic.com/2mouo3a.png
16:04:02 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18521 /extra/catcodec/ (Makefile.bundle README catcodec.1):
16:04:02 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: [catcodec] -Add: readme
16:04:02 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: [catcodec] -Fix: spelling error in manpage
16:06:28 <SpComb^> it's not connected to anything, and doesn't have any trains on it
16:08:24 <fjb> 65 x 65 tiles for 3 tile short trains?
16:08:32 <sparrL> fjb: i am trying to shrink it
16:08:58 <sparrL> i've got a few ideas to utilize the central space, and possibly add some tunnels
16:09:11 <Markk> Original or realistic acceleration?
16:09:14 <fjb> And what happens when 4-tile short trains reach it?
16:10:04 <sparrL> Markk: an excellent question, to which i do not know the answer. i've been playing in #openttdcoop, and they want 2.5-tile curves for 3-tile trains, so that's what i've been practicing with
16:10:19 <sparrL> fjb: i expect it would slow down on some of the curves
16:11:08 <sparrL> the "straight through" paths have some 3.5-tile curves
16:11:17 <SpComb^> also, what is an LLL_RRR spiral hub?
16:11:36 <sparrL> SpComb^: sorry... it's a junction for two 3-tracks-each-way lines
16:12:08 <sparrL> intersecting at an X (as opposed to a T)
16:12:35 <Markk> No curve in that junction will make a train slow down at all
16:12:54 <Markk> Oh, was an old screenshot
16:13:06 <Markk> I've improved that junction from that point
16:13:24 <sparrL> kinda like that, but with more tracks in each direction, and no missing exit options
16:14:05 <SpComb^> fair amount of up-and-down
16:14:37 <sparrL> SpComb^: good point.. i could flatten a lot of it though
16:14:51 <SpComb^> sparrL: no missing exit options?!
16:15:21 <sparrL> in Markk's screenshots some trains coming into that junction can't exit in all 3 possible exit directions
16:15:31 <SpComb^> Markk: your junctions aren't really all that busy :P
16:15:36 <SpComb^> sparrL: and in yours, they can?
16:15:54 <Markk> SpComb^: not at the moment of that junction
16:15:57 <SpComb^> then you must have posted the wrong screenshot or something
16:16:13 <sparrL> the screenshot is 1/4 of the hub
16:16:18 <sparrL> it is to be rotated 3 times
16:16:24 <sparrL> one side of a square hub
16:16:30 <SpComb^> Markk's game is still relatively sane
16:16:35 <sparrL> total size is 65x65 AFTER that
16:16:45 <SpComb^> does openttdcoop assume a flat plane of infinite size?
16:16:52 <sparrL> hence the desire to shrink it
16:17:06 <Markk> But I don't want any quene at all :P
16:17:09 <sparrL> the 2-tracks-each-way variant is a lot smaller, and finding a 20x20 flat plane is plausible in most games
16:17:40 <sparrL> Markk: your screenshots are of junctions for much less tracks
16:17:56 <SpComb^> they're also more organic
16:18:20 <Markk> I use 4-tracks most of the times
16:18:39 <sparrL> the one i'm working on is for 3 northbound tracks, 3 southbound tracks, 3 east...
16:18:42 * SpComb^ preferrs 1-way tracks
16:18:46 <SpComb^> with reluctant upgrades to two-way
16:19:25 <sparrL> SpComb^: can't really complain about my 65x65 if Markk's are similar size
16:22:00 <sparrL> i need to compile in the copy/paste patch
16:22:00 <sparrL> would make things like this easier
16:22:33 <SpComb^> you know there's a large number of people who oppose use of any copy/paste patch
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16:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't exactly oppose to the copy-paste patch, but i have exactly 0 use for it...
16:30:48 <SpComb^> say no to pro-choice!
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16:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what that means
16:35:50 <sparrL2> Eddi|zuHause: it would save me a lot of time
16:35:55 <sparrL2> i'm not very fast with laying track
16:38:42 <Rubidium> it would save you a bit of time and guarantees more bugs
16:38:45 <Plimmer> sparrL2, use "a" "b" "e" "t", when I started using thoose keyboard shortcuts my build speed went up a bit.
16:39:00 <sparrL2> Plimmer: knew about those
16:39:05 <sparrL2> just today discovered using the number keys
16:39:27 <sparrL2> wish there was an option to display invalid bridges
16:39:32 <sparrL2> so the numbers wouldnt change
16:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Plimmer: i use the "r" key a lot
16:41:34 <sparrL2> which is a fn+key on my laptop
16:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL2: all the F-keys have a button associated
16:42:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and i think a second one with shift or ctrl, don't remember
16:43:01 <Plimmer> Arent you missing a tile at brige d after the bridge for a signal?
16:43:31 <Plimmer> And the same goes for h
16:43:51 <Eddi|zuHause> sparrL2: and really the "a" key is one of the most important
16:43:57 <sparrL2> Plimmer: I was under the impression that you could have synced bridges without that extra tile if the bridges were sufficiently short?
16:44:07 <sparrL2> with just 2 signals at each end, instead of 3
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16:44:29 <Plimmer> Oh, not sure about that.
16:44:31 <sparrL2> one being a path signal
16:44:49 <Plimmer> If thats what they say over at coop I wont argue. :)
16:46:48 <sparrL2> they mostly ignore my stupid signaling questions over there
16:47:11 <sparrL2> when i'm happy with the whole design i will make 3 copies and put a bunch of trains on it
16:47:47 <Plimmer> Somestimes I cant even understand their signalling.
16:48:24 * andythenorth (reaches for pixel crayons)
16:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause> how is the "cargo trams" coming along?
16:49:58 <Plimmer> Do thoose drive on regular roads?
16:50:51 <andythenorth> there is a doctor's saying in the UK: 'normal for (insert place name)'
16:51:06 <andythenorth> I suspect they drive on roads that are 'normal for australia'
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16:59:51 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18522 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: add the possibility to not make new tree tiles in-game
17:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> does that mean "trees spread only on tiles that already have a tree"?
17:20:33 <Rubidium> (and eventually die)
17:21:33 <Eddi|zuHause> it wouldn't be such a problem if the spread rate was remotely balanced to the death rate
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17:48:47 <peter1138> damn, ttrs doesn't half produce a lot of passengers
17:49:18 <SpComb^> peter1138: giant screenshot
17:52:05 <peter1138> different game mind you
17:52:10 <peter1138> this time with newstations too
18:02:13 <frosch123> "never click on giant screenshots"
18:03:23 <frosch123> btw. where is petert? noone shouted "feature, feature, will it get into 0.7.5"?
18:04:05 <peter1138> that map was generated with the heightmap curve
18:04:07 <peter1138> i quite like the result
18:04:51 <frosch123> but it still uses homogeneous noise amplitudes, right?
18:05:50 <planetmaker> he... yet another tgp knob or slider: slope of noise amplitudes? :-)
18:07:58 <frosch123> the word "knob" is reserved for undo-functionality
18:13:04 <planetmaker> (why did you have to remind me! I used that word in complete innocence!)
18:13:24 <Rubidium> why did you have to utter that word?
18:13:59 <planetmaker> I like to press knobs and shift sliders and... you know-what-not ;-)
18:14:57 <planetmaker> I was once told there are three levels of safety: easiest is children safe. Worse is physicists-safe and worst is medical-doctors-safe
18:15:35 <planetmaker> they were building machinery for hospitals in that company...
18:16:53 <Rubidium> what, making a successor of the therac-25?
18:18:06 * planetmaker has no idea what that might be.
18:19:07 <Rubidium> oh, a radiation machine that if pressing the wrong buttons can give you a lethal dosis
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18:20:25 <planetmaker> he... I guess they were mostly producing lasers or so...
18:20:35 <planetmaker> but sounds like a fun machinery :-P
18:22:05 <SpComb^> bit more complicated than just pressing the wrong buttons
18:22:12 <SpComb^> someone failed at their concurrent programming stuff
18:22:37 <Rubidium> and management failed on doing proper testing
18:23:16 <SpComb^> testing for those kinds of issues in software is difficult
18:23:57 <Rubidium> true-ish; there are all kinds of model checkers to check whether your design is sound
18:24:10 <Rubidium> although that doesn't rule out implementation errors
18:24:39 <Rubidium> on the other hand doing a review might help in reducing implementation errors, especially if it's compared with the model checked model
18:25:19 <planetmaker> and there's always such things as testing the whole product ... kinda proto-type testing...
18:25:40 <Rubidium> but then again, that's expensive... and like Boeing and Airbus human life it's part of the cost calculations
18:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what did that airline pay for a death? 20.000€?
18:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that's really negligible comparing to the cost of development and testing
18:27:17 <Rubidium> yes, although the 'image' has value too
18:27:22 <planetmaker> well... but not in terms of image. which is an expensive and ...
18:27:38 <planetmaker> ... quite difficult thing to manage and 'buy'
18:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of difficult? that's exactly what pr-companies are selling
18:28:48 <Rubidium> advertising is stupid
18:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> pr does not only consist of advertising
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18:29:57 <Rubidium> if one company starts advertising the others have to start in order to not lose their market. As such they are all advertising to retain their market... which would work exactly as well as when they didn't advertise.
18:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: mixing alpine with opengfx in the wrong order? those shores look really ugly
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18:38:49 <frosch123> he, doesn't ogfx use the 10 sprite version?
18:39:37 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that is an ogfx bug
18:40:12 <planetmaker> hm... can you be more specific what is wrong there?
18:40:27 <planetmaker> yes, I see the result. That doesn't look nice...
18:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i only see the result, i can't say what's wrong
18:42:11 <frosch123> planetmaker: i described it on the wiki
18:42:21 <frosch123> there is a 16 and a 10 sprite version for shore action5
18:42:44 <frosch123> basesets should use to 10 sprite version, as that one is deactivated when newgrfs replace shore using actiona
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18:43:15 <planetmaker> ok... and obviously in ogfxe_extra it uses 16?
18:43:27 <frosch123> it works with openttdw/d.grf
18:43:33 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, as opengfx is a base set... hard to get it the wrong order
18:43:51 <frosch123> anyway, i am leaving for sports
18:44:07 <planetmaker> yes, they have 16 tiles for each climate.
18:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> alpine is too old, so it has only the 10 tile version, which cannot overwrite the 16 tile version anymore?
18:45:05 <planetmaker> maybe. I don't know.
18:45:09 <planetmaker> Might be worth testing
18:45:48 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r18523 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:48 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:48 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
18:45:48 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: dutch - 5 changes by habell
18:45:48 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
18:45:50 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: french - 4 changes by glx
18:45:50 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: german - 8 changes by planetmaker
18:45:52 <planetmaker> he... 'programming' opengfx was easy. Till all those nasty details started to surface...
18:46:29 <planetmaker> or should I say 'ignorance is a bliss'?
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19:05:04 <Belugas> ashb : please, if you like noise, do your noise somewhere else
19:05:17 <Belugas> [12:00] <ashb> W 39 <--- from yesterday
19:05:47 <ashb> yeah its this keyboard. need to setup irssi filters
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19:06:06 <Belugas> apologies accepted :)
19:07:11 <peter1138> if you have 276 windows, perhaps you ought to ... leave it a bit
19:07:54 <ashb> no - that was also the new keyboard, i have about 40
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19:09:20 <andythenorth> my town is dying :(
19:09:54 <Rubidium> you killed its heart?
19:11:40 <andythenorth> oh, it just built a stadium!
19:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> am i too un-geek-y if i am only in like 6 channels?
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19:19:41 <SpComb^> I know a few good ones you could join
19:45:14 <peter1138> toyland map generator doesn't work :/
19:53:45 <planetmaker> which map generator? Original or terragen?
19:54:01 <planetmaker> it always worked for me... that's why I'm asking
19:54:15 <peter1138> original, with original graphics
19:54:47 <peter1138> maybe it's the grfs i have loaded
19:55:23 <planetmaker> hm... original indeed looks ugly. But the same shit as with the other climates. Wrong sprites...
19:57:26 <sparrL> it takes up less space :)
20:01:50 <fjb> Now you only need to generate a world around.
20:09:28 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the use of this abomination?
20:09:38 <Noldo> planetmaker: do you know how the map generator sprites in opengfx were created?
20:10:23 <sparrL> Eddi|zuHause: 4 of them (ignoring the duplicated part by the letters) makes a "complete" junction for 3 tracks in each direction
20:10:37 <sparrL> complete insofar as each incoming train can exit in any direction
20:10:50 <sparrL> on the (relatively) same track it entered on
20:11:36 <planetmaker> Noldo: I have no idea. I don't even know *where* they are.
20:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember that someone put random noise in them, and rubidium had to add a function that makes a sanity check on the sprites
20:13:40 <Yexo> that's right Eddi|zuHause
20:13:58 <Yexo> unless something has changed the map generator sprites in opengfx are random noise
20:14:10 <planetmaker> I searched OpenTTD's source code for the sprite numbers. But I didn't find them. Any clue?
20:14:30 <planetmaker> I didn't find them in OpenGFX either. Unless I look through 1000s of lines manually...
20:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> check src/table/sprites.h?
20:14:47 <planetmaker> I did. Either I'm blind or it's not in there
20:15:15 <planetmaker> I looked at all src/table/*.h files for that matter...
20:15:40 <planetmaker> and tgp.* and the other terrain generation files whose names I forgot
20:17:23 <Yexo> looks like it's 4845 and onward
20:17:47 <peter1138> they're in one of the sub-files, not r1
20:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i should pay attention to what i update...
20:18:42 <peter1138> ogfxi_logos.grf, i mean
20:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i removed kdebase3 [contains kate], and installing kate (kde4) isn't done yet...
20:19:36 <planetmaker> totally right, peter1138 . Thanks!
20:20:11 <Noldo> I looked at the original sprites once
20:20:32 <peter1138> if you look at the originals you can see it's clearly a bit of heightmap
20:20:51 <Rubidium> static inline bool IsMapgenSpriteID(SpriteID sprite) { return IsInsideMM(sprite, 4845, 4882); }
20:21:11 <peter1138> of course, you can't do that due to copyright/clean-room ... ;)
20:21:16 <peter1138> Rubidium, mmm, numbers ;)
20:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> MAGIC NUMBERS I BANISH THEE!
20:22:13 <Noldo> would it be possible to convert the sprites so that each color index would appear as a shade of gray?
20:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: the colours are purely client side
20:23:04 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd only cares about the palette index
20:23:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you can change the local palette
20:23:16 <planetmaker> well... one can always use other height maps.
20:29:08 <Yexo> the map generator sprites are heighmaps. Several of those are rotated/mirrored and combined in the actual map
20:29:51 <Yexo> combining is done by first setting the height of all tiles to 0, then several random heighmap sprites are chosen and each applied in turn
20:30:36 <Yexo> when a heightmap sprite is applied first a random location and orientation and chosen, then the height of all tiles in the to-be-updated area is set to the max of the current height and the value from the heighmap
20:31:07 <Yexo> only the lower 4 bits of each byte in the heighmap sprite are used
20:32:06 <Yexo> so basically store some simple heightmaps in those sprites and see if that gives better results then the current random noise
20:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the question is: does anybody ever use the original map generator?
20:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> oh i remember TTO, where you had only one kind of mountain...
20:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so why does it suddenly say "*** WARNING: Direct Rendering is NOT enabled"
20:37:19 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: probably none of the people who play nightlies
20:39:27 *** zodttd2 is now known as zodttd
20:46:35 * planetmaker just adds random patches pink to the blue mapgen sprites
20:47:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: like i said, you can change the palette to something more heightmap-style
20:51:23 <SpComb^> peter1138: boo, you should have given me a giant screenshot of your earlier game :(
20:51:40 <SpComb^> the new one is yet quite dull
21:01:53 <Noldo> Yexo: so none of the sprites has any special role? is just picks some at random combines them?
21:02:38 <Yexo> some of them are only picked in a certain climate
21:02:46 <Yexo> so it's not completely random
21:04:29 <Noldo> and lower 4 bits means I need only the first 2^4 colors defined?
21:18:46 <Noldo> hmm, why did I choose red and green when they are the colors I have problems separating
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21:20:10 <planetmaker> hm... that's strange. I use the same colours as the original sprites... but my maps are WAY flatter... :S
21:20:45 <planetmaker> even putting the mountains in the same sprites only, doesn't help...
21:21:23 <planetmaker> Noldo: you work on those sprites?
21:21:45 <Noldo> well, trying to create a nice colormap first
21:22:53 <planetmaker> even you should then be able to discern them.
21:24:24 <planetmaker> so... can I assign the task to come up with a new version of mapgen.pcx and rely on that?
21:27:36 <SpComb^> is the OpenTTDCoop newgrf pack still maintained?
21:28:06 <planetmaker> well... sort of. But we won't add new newgrfs anymore
21:28:13 <SpComb^> wondering becaues 7.3 was released last year, it has and old version of the german road vehicles, and using it causes all the default vehicles to show up in the game early
21:28:16 <planetmaker> We like to encourage the use of bananas
21:28:51 <planetmaker> there's a new version planned somewhen, though
21:29:10 <planetmaker> for very good reasons we might add a newgrf, but...
21:29:47 <planetmaker> is there no version of the GermanRV on bananas?
21:29:51 <SpComb^> well, bugreport: enableing germanrw.grf causes all the default vehicles to show up in the year 1920, in addition to the german ones
21:30:02 <planetmaker> which version do you use?
21:30:14 <planetmaker> the one from the coop pack? of the GermanRV set.
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21:30:43 <planetmaker> there's somewhere version 0.21 or so.
21:31:01 <SpComb^> haven't tried it yet, will do
21:33:16 <fjb> GermanRV modifies the original vehicles because the set still lacks trucks.
21:34:24 <SpComb^> hmm, 0.21 just complains that its incompatible with HOVS UK Bus Set, but I don't have that activated
21:34:52 <SpComb^> fjb: but is it supposed to make them all available in the year 1920?
21:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: there should be a parameter to disable the compatibility checks
21:35:36 <fjb> 0.2 deactivates itself when it finds any road vehicles set it knows about. I found only the hover craft bus.
21:36:09 <fjb> Not all 1920, but it makes some appear earlier so you have trucks in 1920.
21:37:13 <SpComb^> ah, didn't read that version of the readme... but adding a parameter of 1 doesn't help
21:37:31 <SpComb^> and as far as I can tell, it's the only rv set that I have enabled
21:37:40 <planetmaker> 0.2.1 has that fixed wrt 0.2
21:39:24 <planetmaker> ok, then it (still) doesn't work. Make a bug report for the author
21:43:13 <Noldo> do the grf generating tools care about the colormap/palette ?
21:43:28 <planetmaker> well... usually yes
21:43:58 <Noldo> so I can't rip the extra colors out of mapgen.pcx's map :/
21:44:09 <planetmaker> TTD windows palette is what OpenGFX uses
21:44:36 <SpComb^> do the grf tools work on linux?
21:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: afair grfcodec can discard the palette
21:45:04 <planetmaker> and nforenum and catcodec
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21:45:34 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes. But only for a whole (new)grf. The other sprites need the palette. Thus the mapgen sprites, too
21:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if it uses the palette indexes, nothing should go wrong
21:48:59 <SpComb^> hmm, it wants upx for compiling
21:49:19 <Rubidium> just remove the lines with UPX :)
21:55:03 <SpComb^> 14 * 9 07 88 04 \7gg 44 44 04 01 01
21:55:03 <SpComb^> 15 * 59 0B 03 7F "ÿHOVS UK Bus Set is incompatible, "
21:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have a grf with id 44440401 active
21:58:12 <SpComb^> but it is not active, the germanrv is the only grf that is loaded/active
21:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know your grf list
22:01:06 <SpComb^> the "NewGRF Settings" window only lists one GRF
22:02:34 <SpComb^> but the "Available NewGRF files" window does list HOVS and many more
22:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but those should not count...
22:04:13 <Noldo> is there some HOWTO on compiling OpenGFX?
22:05:08 <sparrL> Yexo: for the map generator sprites, storing pseudo-random waveforms of different frequency would produce nice results if the heights were added
22:05:16 <sparrL> not sure how the max() operation will affect it
22:06:03 <planetmaker> Noldo: in principle yes: the readme ;-)
22:06:28 <planetmaker> in practical terms: have you a hg checkout of the repository? Or a de-compiled version?
22:06:48 <planetmaker> then a simple make should do
22:06:54 <Noldo> and got grfcodec on the path too
22:07:00 <planetmaker> you need also gcc
22:08:05 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: it works here...
22:09:24 <planetmaker> Noldo: oh... and you need md5sum
22:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... brick chain doesn't work in arctic?
22:10:10 <planetmaker> all clay frozen. No bricks baked
22:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i could use it with alpine, though...
22:12:20 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: hrm, I am running OpenTTD r18495
22:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm running r18450M, there shouldn't be a lot of changes
22:13:34 <SpComb^> hmm, fails for me with clean trunk r15890 as well
22:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you are doing something wrong ;)
22:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> feature(-ish) request: when the town name grf is not loaded anymore, fall back to the previously used "default" name set, not english
22:16:25 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: that information is not stored in the savegame
22:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: not savegame, main menu
22:17:02 <Noldo> Sleep now, retry tomorrow
22:17:07 <Yexo> even there the information is not saved currently
22:17:13 <Yexo> but that could be implemented I guess
22:17:38 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: where did you download the .grf from?
22:17:46 <SpComb^> could you give me a copy of yours?
22:19:58 <SpComb^> mine shows with an md5sum of 332fc1...b94918
22:21:02 <sparrL> is there a GRF set that gets rid of the 'noise' on grass and water tiles?
22:21:06 <sparrL> would make screenshots a lot smaller
22:21:37 <SpComb^> my unzip must be broken and flipping bits or something
22:22:04 <SpComb^> 332fc1c583de9b329349d9dc0bb94918 for germanrvw.grf
22:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what mine says, too
22:23:14 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18524 /extra/catcodec/ (README catcodec.cpp findversion.sh): [catcodec] -Fix: make catcodec compile when it's not a repository checkout
22:23:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openttd.org': Invalid argument" <-- ?!?
22:23:54 <SpComb^> then it doesn't make much sense, I've tried this with r18523
22:24:16 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: did you forget to add "svn://" in front of it?
22:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i just did "svn up"
22:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> in my working copy that i have used for years
22:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause> probably a local problem
22:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> system, not network
22:25:54 <SpComb^> I'll try with a self-compiled 0.7.4 for good measure
22:31:09 <SpComb^> there needs to be some kind of openttd-grf debugger :(
22:31:45 <SpComb^> for single-stepping through NFO
22:31:57 <sparrL> is it intentional that modifying the map smoothness doesn't affect the difficulty rating? i find that a smooth un-flat map is often easier to play on than an un-smooth flat map, but difficulty is linked to flatness and not smoothness
22:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: just change the 0B into a 0C, then it will get ignored ;)
22:32:47 <Rubidium> lots of settings can be changed to change difficulty but they don't influence the difficulty setting
22:33:09 <sparrL> if you modify the flatness, you cannot play Easy / Medium / Hard, just Custom
22:33:14 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: something else will probably break after that...
22:33:15 <sparrL> but you can modify the smoothness and stay in Easy
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22:34:32 <Rubidium> arguably medium with build on slopes disabled and the original acceleration is harder than hard with build on slopes enabled and 'realistic' acceleration
22:35:04 <sparrL> sure, but no advanced settings affect difficulty
22:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i think realistic acceleration is way too easy (compared with the original)
22:35:37 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: heh, now it did load
22:35:45 <sparrL> in this case there are two basic map settings, and their affect on the difficulty rating is disproportionate to their actual difficulty
22:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and the freight train multiplicator doesn't cut it
22:38:24 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18525 /extra/catcodec/findversion.sh: [catcodec] -Fix (r18524): didn't give the version the compile farm expects
22:38:31 <SpComb^> I can't really report a bug to the GRF author if it works for you, though :/
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22:39:41 <SpComb^> except... I think I may see it
22:40:28 <fjb> Who cares for easy or difficult setting any way?
22:40:41 <_ln> so when can we build cargo trams?
22:41:07 <SpComb^> 12 * 6 07 85 01 \70 78 02
22:41:07 <SpComb^> 13 * 6 09 00 01 \7= 01 E0
22:41:07 <SpComb^> 14 * 9 07 88 04 \7gg 44 44 04 01 01
22:41:07 <SpComb^> 15 * 59 0C 03 7F "<FF>HOVS UK Bus Set is incompatible, "
22:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> _ln: when you load a grf that contains them
22:41:23 <SpComb^> that first action7 skips right to the actionB
22:41:33 <SpComb^> so if you don't have dynamicengines on, it fails
22:41:48 <SpComb^> Eddi|zuHause: can you try turning dynamicengines off and see if the germanrv grf fails with that error?
22:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: confirmed
22:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb^: shall i report it?
22:43:10 <SpComb^> yay, I can send a .nfo patch \o/
22:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there's hardly a reason to disable that setting ;)
22:44:40 <SpComb^> well, for some reason it's off for me
22:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's off by default
22:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> some of the default settings should be reviewed for newbie-friendliness
22:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> most of the default settings are for ttd-compatibility
22:45:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but hardly any newbie will want that...
22:48:21 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: then come up with an improvement...
22:55:29 <SpComb^> now... what was I doing... oh yes, I was trying to play a game of OpenTTD :P
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22:59:13 <SpComb^> cargodist, daylength factor, 512x512 alpine, no industries, low towns, german trains/vehicles
23:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i like industries :(
23:03:47 <SpComb^> I like long distances between towns
23:03:54 <SpComb^> gives you room to build
23:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i like many villages
23:04:47 <SpComb^> well, I'd preferr to have too few towns as opposed to too many currently, while playing with cargodist
23:06:31 <SpComb^> also, whoever had to idea of making cloned vehicles detect and increment a number suffix on the vehicle's name is a genius
23:07:07 <peter1138> hmm, who wrote that one?
23:08:07 <Rubidium> what was his nick? uhm... petert?
23:08:27 *** DarkED2 has joined #openttd
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23:09:02 <Prof_Frink> I dunno, but he has a mighty column.
23:09:25 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18526 /extra/catcodec/catcodec.1: [catcodec] -Fix: some mans rather like .sp to denote newlines than an actual empty line, which is accepted by some other mans
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23:10:27 <peter1138> @openttd commit 15621
23:10:27 <DorpsGek> peter1138: Commit by peter1138 :: r15621 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2009-03-05 17:37:56 UTC)
23:10:28 <DorpsGek> peter1138: -Feature: When cloning a vehicle with a custom name, add and/or increment a number at the end of name and assign it to the new vehicle (for emma)
23:10:38 <terinjokes> TrueBrain: the only thing that isn't mention in the documentation is which version of GCC you used to compile the apple version of odcctools
23:10:38 <terinjokes> (and I respect if you don't want to answer, and I'll bang my head trying to figure it out on my own)
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23:12:26 <Rubidium> terinjokes: Debian's gcc-4.3 of about a year ago works
23:13:34 <terinjokes> Rubidium: k, about the version I'm using... even checked out the same revision of odcctools from the svn, and no go... let me try again (thanks for the help you are giving)
23:15:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so who the fuck is emma?
23:15:53 <peter1138> presumably an ottd player
23:16:14 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: Alice's friend.
23:16:30 <Rubidium> terinjokes: what Linux are you using? TrueBrain uses Gentoo and for Debian I had to modify some stuff to get it compiling (different headers and such)
23:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Alice and Emma -- Lesbian Action?
23:17:44 <Prof_Frink> Alice, Alice, who the fuck is Alice?
23:17:44 <terinjokes> Rubidium: I have CrunchBang (a derivative of Ubuntu) in VM.... I'm a Gentoo user nativally, and don't mind doing an install to the VM
23:18:14 <terinjokes> Prof_Frink: she has a restuarant in New Jersey (near all that transportation!)
23:18:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: yes, i did have that phrase in mind when writing that ;)
23:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany we have so called "aunt emma shops"
23:21:51 <peter1138> Alice, what's the matter?
23:26:37 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: yexo * r18527 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: an industry newgrf that defined a too small size for action0 prop 0A could cause a crash
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23:36:03 <terinjokes> Rubidium: you mentioned you had to change things under debian?
23:36:26 <Rubidium> yes, add some 'missing' headers IIRC
23:37:48 <terinjokes> Rubidium: you mean from that big long error i get ;)
23:39:19 <Rubidium> no idea which odcctools that's based upon, although it might be after they merged some of TB's patches
23:40:20 <terinjokes> Rubidium: they did
23:40:28 <terinjokes> the last two on that page actually
23:46:54 <TrueBrain> [00:10] <terinjokes> TrueBrain: the only thing that isn't mention in the documentation is which version of GCC you used to compile the apple version of odcctools <- any gcc3+ should work; it might give some warnings; if you are not able to fix those yourself, cross-compiling is not for you :)
23:48:21 <terinjokes> TrueBrain: i got cross-compile working with Windows... and I'm determined to get it working for OSX... ;)
23:53:07 <TrueBrain> so did I, and I succeeded .. where everyone told me it was impossible ;)
23:53:22 <TrueBrain> Gentoo btw is easiest to use for this
23:53:38 <peter1138> cos you have to compile everything anyway?
23:53:45 <peter1138> woot, maps with variation
23:53:50 <terinjokes> TrueBrain: yes... except I don't have a VM image for Gentoo (even though I run it natively!)
23:54:15 <TrueBrain> but, Rubidium has it running on Debian, so that is possible too
23:54:22 <TrueBrain> latest odcctools needs more patching then that document says
23:54:24 <terinjokes> download one? then why bother using Gentoo?
23:54:35 <TrueBrain> you can download a Gentoo VM
23:54:52 <terinjokes> TrueBrain: i checkout revision 280 ;)
23:55:31 <TrueBrain> well, I have to say it correctly: odcctools added some of my patches
23:55:36 <TrueBrain> the latest cctools needs more patching
23:55:46 <TrueBrain> and the last time I checked odcctools, they had most of them
23:56:06 <TrueBrain> odcctools should be the easiest of them all
23:56:11 <TrueBrain> don't bother with otools and friends
23:56:14 <terinjokes> TrueBrain: my testing yesterday, thef had the bottom two
23:56:52 <terinjokes> "delete otools unless you have an ObjC compiler, which I don't" (going from memory)
continue to next day ⏵
