IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-05-08
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03:31:49 <hoax> scenario that you can easily test various things with
03:41:23 <Zantor> are you still there, hoax?
03:41:25 <hoax> ihave saved a multiplayer game, and now i'm with someone else's company, is there some hack switch companies in a saved game?
03:42:28 <hoax> thx, searching google then
03:42:39 <Aali> or you could check the ottd wiki
03:42:46 <Zantor> booth and I had a miscommunication earlier today
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03:49:40 <hoax> so it's cool gaming weather
03:50:01 <Tefad> wwwwwwwwwoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
03:50:34 <hoax> you turn on game music i thought
03:51:20 <Zantor> Original Electronic Music
04:13:03 *** hoax is now known as z-MaTRiX
04:17:39 <Zantor> why all the changes in nickname?
04:18:56 <z-MaTRiX> i registered z-MaTRiX
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04:23:18 <z-MaTRiX> Zantor, playing openttd? :)
04:24:14 <z-MaTRiX> btw you can register your nickname if you like
04:26:10 <Zantor> register my nick, where? on IRC or in the forum?
04:27:21 <z-MaTRiX> so it will be password protected
04:27:53 <z-MaTRiX> /msg nickserv register yourpassword youremailaddress
04:28:16 <z-MaTRiX> assuming /msg sends a message on your client
04:28:35 <z-MaTRiX> try /msg nickserv help
04:31:13 <z-MaTRiX> then you can identify every time you log in with your nick using /msg nickserv identify yourpassword
04:35:12 <z-MaTRiX> and you can hide your email address if you like
04:37:26 <el_en> you're all here too early, go back to sleep.
04:38:31 <z-MaTRiX> [063751] De_Ghost it's 12:30
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04:52:56 <z-MaTRiX> heheh intersting builtin cheats
04:59:09 <z-MaTRiX> 'have a pointless cheat suggestion, "let maglev trains go on a railroad track"
04:59:56 <Zantor> that is very pointlesss
05:04:37 <Zantor> I am gradually making my trains longer
05:04:55 <z-MaTRiX> i've just tried 40000hp lev-4
05:05:13 <Zantor> I've been using the Lev4, but occasionally I use the Lev3
05:05:28 <z-MaTRiX> (used 2of them 2x20000hp)
05:06:00 <z-MaTRiX> did you know you can put more engines in a train to get more power?
05:06:45 <Zantor> I had wondered if that is possible
05:07:15 <z-MaTRiX> sure, it can be especially useful when you have long trains
05:08:11 <z-MaTRiX> heheh wonder what is does if i use 2 lev-4-s and 1 lev-3
05:09:14 <z-MaTRiX> oh limited top speed
05:09:27 <Zantor> more power but limited speed, eh?
05:10:13 <z-MaTRiX> yep, lev-3 can do 482kmh
05:11:04 <De_Ghost> are you playing a network game?
05:11:37 <z-MaTRiX> btw wonder į can host a game
05:12:48 <z-MaTRiX> creating antihoax group multiplayer
05:13:45 <De_Ghost> use the latest nightly :o
05:14:12 <z-MaTRiX> it is not compatible with the stable?
05:14:24 <Zantor> are the nightly builds stable?
05:15:11 <Zantor> are they often stable?
05:15:12 <z-MaTRiX> De_Ghost, can you see antihoax group?
05:15:37 <z-MaTRiX> that i don't know ;/
05:15:45 <z-MaTRiX> just started a server
05:16:41 <De_Ghost> ip and port is so much faster..
05:17:16 <Zantor> go to www.ipchicken.com to get your IP to tell him
05:17:26 <Zantor> and then if you know what port you're hosting on tell him tha ttoo
05:17:36 <z-MaTRiX> i know my ip, but what port?
05:18:25 <z-MaTRiX> btw not sure if i can host a game, only on ipv6
05:18:28 <De_Ghost> it'll list everything
05:19:11 <Zantor> I'm an IP v4 kind of person
05:19:19 <z-MaTRiX> so i might join any game
05:19:21 <Zantor> IP v6 to me looks convoluted and unnecessary
05:21:02 <z-MaTRiX> then either it's not working, or on ipv6
05:21:03 <De_Ghost> i'll try default ports
05:21:18 <z-MaTRiX> can you connect to v6?
05:21:41 <De_Ghost> we'll know when we try
05:21:48 <De_Ghost> don't u have a ipv4?
05:22:06 <z-MaTRiX> you surely cannot conenct to that
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05:22:46 <z-MaTRiX> was wondering if its possible to host a game passively
05:23:12 <z-MaTRiX> but there should be some error messages
05:23:24 <z-MaTRiX> no open ports or smg
05:24:06 <z-MaTRiX> btw still don't know what port it want to use
05:31:37 <z-MaTRiX> so i guess i can only join games
05:31:49 <z-MaTRiX> unless i tunnell a v4
05:34:40 <De_Ghost> Also, OpenTTD (the game) is also IPv4 only.
05:34:53 <De_Ghost> OpenTTD (the game) now also supports IPv6.
05:38:06 <De_Ghost> yea i don't see anyone with v6
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05:42:32 <Zantor> that is very much IPv6
05:43:04 <z-MaTRiX> now it supports ipv6 game or not?
05:43:15 <De_Ghost> how do i conenct to it?
05:43:53 <Rubidium> in the way you connect to other servers too
05:44:13 <Rubidium> i.e. with the same version
05:44:32 <Zantor> that second one is using both
05:44:45 <z-MaTRiX> if iannounce a server will it be listed here?
05:45:22 <Zantor> but the first one, #719, is using v6 only to my knowledge and what is displayed there
05:45:32 <z-MaTRiX> how do i create an ipv6 server and define port?
05:46:01 <Rubidium> with a recent nightly; by default it'll bind to both IPv4 and IPv6
05:46:37 <z-MaTRiX> ok thx so i need to upgrade
05:46:59 <z-MaTRiX> port setting added too, or defaults?
05:47:46 <Rubidium> it will use the same port as with ipv4
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05:54:24 <Rubidium> more likely: makedepend failed
05:54:36 <Rubidium> try: ./configure --without-makedepend
05:55:03 <Zantor> hey I g2g to bed; ttyl
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06:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause> is it me or are 50% of the words not actual words today?
06:13:33 <z-MaTRiX> you have script for that? ;)
06:15:28 <z-MaTRiX> started game on latest OpenTTD
06:15:37 <z-MaTRiX> still didn't ask port though
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06:22:14 <z-MaTRiX> found a bug in latest dev
06:22:44 <z-MaTRiX> clientlist window does not show properly
06:32:45 <z-MaTRiX> and ipv6 addressdoes not fit to add server window
06:33:56 <z-MaTRiX> tried adding by host too, but v6 didn't work that way
06:34:22 <Xaroth> I think that's mostly because IPv6 is quite new in trunk.
06:45:52 <z-MaTRiX> btw why is it cool to have version mismatch if only a small bug have been fixed, protocol unchanged?
06:47:37 <Rubidium> what is 'small bug' and what do you call 'protocol unchanged'? Any idea how OpenTTD works in a network environment?
06:48:01 <z-MaTRiX> Noldo, was just a guess
06:48:14 <z-MaTRiX> no; was just a guess
06:49:39 <Rubidium> well, simply said: we once copy the map to the client and then all subsequent actions by the player, resulting in ~1 kBps of traffic regardless of the map size
06:50:47 <Rubidium> i.e. we do not constantly send over the complete game state, which would start at several MBps
06:51:21 <z-MaTRiX> so little changes make other versions incompatible?
06:51:58 <Rubidium> incompatible meaning that the game state of the server and client will be diverging
06:52:10 <Rubidium> instead of staying the same
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07:07:04 <z-MaTRiX> :) interesting that OpenTTD servers continue playing the game after client disconnects
07:07:23 <z-MaTRiX> and client can rejoin
07:08:00 <Xaroth> you can make it pause.
07:10:05 <z-MaTRiX> whole game would pause when someone disconnects?
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07:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: the game would pause when less than X people are left
07:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> where X is configurable
07:30:26 <TrueBrain> stupid Eddi|zuHause!!! :(
07:30:50 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: we had such a lovely run!
07:30:54 <TrueBrain> now .. you spoiled it! :'(
07:30:59 * TrueBrain hugs Eddi|zuHause :)
07:30:59 <De_Ghost> how do i connect to an ip 6 server if the game doesn't let me enter the whole address?
07:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> De_Ghost: you could try jumping on one leg
07:34:13 <TrueBrain> we should start giving out those awards again, for most vague questions of the week :)
07:35:42 <De_Ghost> i can't git an ipv6 in it
07:35:49 <De_Ghost> cuz the box have a limit of chars
07:37:35 <De_Ghost> or maybe my format is wrong
07:37:37 <TrueBrain> you want to describe it as a feature?
07:38:12 <De_Ghost> bigger add server field when trying to add server
07:38:23 <TrueBrain> if you think it is a feature, then make a feature request .. if you think it is a bug, which most sane people would, make it a bug report :)
07:38:47 <TrueBrain> either way, you seem very sure what the problem is, so use the bugtracker
07:39:11 <De_Ghost> if it's a problem or not
07:39:17 <TrueBrain> is it a problem for you?
07:39:32 <De_Ghost> cuz the server is useing norev00
07:40:04 <TrueBrain> okay, to come back on those awards, I think we need to extend the categories .... one for: most weird question of the week :p
07:40:24 <TrueBrain> sometimes you are funny De_Ghost
07:40:41 <TrueBrain> if you think it is a bug, report it; if you want to be sure it is a trunk bug, download the latest nightly and try it
07:40:43 <De_Ghost> do you guys read feature request?
07:40:45 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause, oh i see
07:42:13 <z-MaTRiX> well longer address input field is a feature request :)
07:42:37 <TrueBrain> ... you guys are weird!
07:49:10 <TrueBrain> I really would have made it a bug report ... but I guess I am just a nobody here :p
07:49:42 <De_Ghost> you said what i think
07:49:47 <De_Ghost> i think it's a feature :D
07:49:55 <TrueBrain> you guys are stupid ...
08:03:46 <petern> if you could only enter 4 characters, would that be a bug or a feature?
08:03:59 <TrueBrain> petern: today I learnt, it would be a feature
08:04:10 <TrueBrain> but .. I am going to change all bug reports to feature requests
08:04:28 <De_Ghost> request feature for game not crashing plz
08:04:45 <petern> i've changed it to bug
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08:13:02 <frosch123> how long is a v6 adress for you? I can enter 29 chars.
08:13:28 <frosch123> ok, port does not fit
08:13:38 <[wito]> aren't they usually about 40:12:a3:41:d6:ad::f3 long?
08:14:12 <TrueBrain> 1234:5678:9abcd:ef12:3456:7890 <- about that long
08:14:43 <Forked> how do you specify the port?
08:14:46 <petern> 1234:1234:1234:1234:1234:1234:1234:1234:32767
08:14:50 <TrueBrain> haha, forgot 2 segments
08:14:55 <petern> or, [1234:1234:1234:1234:1234:1234:1234:1234]:32767
08:15:27 <De_Ghost> that's 4 char for ip + 6 for port
08:15:32 <TrueBrain> I never understood why they used : as seperator :(
08:15:34 <De_Ghost> that's 40* char for ip + 6 for port
08:18:31 <frosch123> network/core/config.h: NETWORK_HOSTNAME_LENGTH = 80, ///< The maximum length of the host name, in bytes including '\0' <- why did I ask, when there is a constant
08:26:14 <frosch123> "opentd version in newgrf format" != "grf version"
08:26:41 <planetmaker> frosch123, exactly :)
08:27:02 <frosch123> but you started with grf version
08:27:05 <planetmaker> I'm just bitching about his commit log message :P
08:27:17 <planetmaker> it's reporting the openttd version, not a newgrf version
08:28:14 <planetmaker> well... basically when I read it I mis-understood what the commit was about till I read the code lines :)
08:29:02 <planetmaker> and it's an absolute non-issue :) I was just feeling... dunno... making unqualified remarks :P
08:29:38 * TrueBrain hugs planetmaker :)
08:38:34 <planetmaker> frosch123, is the example for the 0.6.0 release not actually wrong there?
08:38:41 <planetmaker> Shouldn't r=1 be the case?
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08:39:49 <planetmaker> or... hm...no. sorry
08:40:09 <planetmaker> that's the 3rd digit ;)
08:40:28 <planetmaker> yep. just realized :)
08:40:58 <frosch123> r524287 will be troublesome though
08:41:20 <planetmaker> I guess one might introduce in r300000 a new newgrf version
08:41:39 <planetmaker> though... you should hurry up to prepare for that :P
08:42:06 <planetmaker> only 20 times more commits since r1
08:42:14 <frosch123> yup, everyday a yoghurt and enough water
08:43:20 <planetmaker> hm... given the rate of 1 commit / hour roughly... well :)
08:45:06 <planetmaker> @calc 500000 / 24 / 365.24
08:45:06 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 57.0401197386
08:45:18 <frosch123> 16170 messages since the first one, 5 years ago, for an average of 2.71 hours between messages
08:45:37 <planetmaker> frosch123, yes. But speed picked up somewhat, I think.
08:45:52 <frosch123> really? I thought it slowed down :p
08:46:08 <planetmaker> I made a calculation based upon ~3 month or so... or since 0.6.0 and 0.7.0 and it was faster :)
08:46:19 <planetmaker> dunno anymore. But result was approx. 1 commit / hour
08:46:56 <frosch123> 24 per day is a lot
08:47:08 <planetmaker> hm... or my memory is faulty :)
08:52:19 <planetmaker> @calc (16250 - 12395) / 13 / 30
08:52:19 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 9.88461538462
08:52:26 <planetmaker> ^^ per day since 0.6.0
08:52:41 <planetmaker> @calc (16250 - 12395) / 13 / 30 / 24
08:52:41 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.411858974359
08:52:51 <planetmaker> @calc 1 / (16250 - 12395) / 13 / 30 / 24)
08:52:51 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
08:53:04 <planetmaker> @calc 1 / ((16250 - 12395) / 13 / 30 / 24)
08:53:04 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2.4280155642
08:53:12 <planetmaker> one commit every 2.4 hours...
08:56:20 <Rubidium> commits are such a useless measurement system ;)
08:59:27 <planetmaker> Depends upon the definition of "useless". It's in any case a measure of activity.
08:59:48 <planetmaker> not necessarily a measure of productivity, though ;)
09:00:19 <Rubidium> the average interval between nightlies is better to measure activity ;)
09:00:32 <planetmaker> but to the first order it's acceptable, I think
09:00:59 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: frosch * r16254 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2886]: Magic constant removed.
09:01:10 <planetmaker> Rubidium, uhm... 24 hours? Or the change in version numbers? But that's basically the same, isn't it? It's only another time base.
09:02:05 <frosch123> [11:00] <planetmaker> Depends upon the definition of "useless". It's in any case a measure of activity. <- noai ruined our statistics :(
09:02:53 <Rubidium> neither are cargodst not head-to-head
09:03:05 <Rubidium> and even trunk isn't build every day
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09:04:02 <Rubidium> (it's attempted though)
09:05:25 <planetmaker> well. Those other branches aren't compiled every day. Sure.
09:05:48 <Rubidium> strgen and pngcodec are attempted daily
09:05:48 <planetmaker> But as long as most activity is in trunk (yes, noAI is problematic in that respect - but it got merged, so it's fine again)
09:21:27 <TrueBrain> who here knows enough about asm ...
09:21:39 <TrueBrain> in what case would it not jump? (don't mind the syntax :p)
09:24:14 <Rubidium> jump unconditionally <param> somethings?
09:24:59 <TrueBrain> hmm .. nevermind, it should always jump
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09:28:58 <Xaroth> need to find me a svn web interface :/
09:29:58 <Xaroth> don't need project thingie, just svn thingie :/
09:30:30 <TrueBrain> we use it only for the svn thingy :)
09:31:21 <Xaroth> yeh, but that means installing some bloated thing just for 1 tiny feature.. I was trying to avoid that :P
09:31:39 <Xaroth> currently using Redmine.. but its bloated as fook :/
09:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> hm... given the rate of 1 commit / hour roughly... well :) <- i was under the impression the frequency of commits increased since r1
09:39:32 <Eddi|zuHause> what's that jump near r15000??
09:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i still have no idea why we have piglatin...
09:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd vote for removing it...
09:43:35 <TrueBrain> I second that motion
09:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> this is a serious game.
09:44:20 <Rubidium> lets remove German; it just sounds like funny Dutch
09:44:37 <Rubidium> and so does Afrikaans
09:45:18 <Rubidium> that's just funny Frisian
09:45:33 <Rubidium> hmm, which is funny Dutch
09:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also lower german
09:46:38 <Eddi|zuHause> where the spreading has significantly reduced in the last 100 years
09:47:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that my great-grandmother grew up speaking lower german, and that wasn't very far away from here
09:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> my mother growing up in the same region learned high german
09:54:57 <z-MaTRiX> can someone test ipv6 ?
09:55:20 <z-MaTRiX> started latest OpenTTD server from svn
09:55:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the same someone who implements all those features
09:55:33 <Rubidium> someone tries to be leet?
09:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: if the server appears on the master list, then it worked.
09:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you can check that yourself
09:57:01 <z-MaTRiX> it's marked as online allright
09:57:16 <z-MaTRiX> even has server version there
10:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to the timetable management patch?
10:11:29 <Rubidium> it followed/follows cargodest
10:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> imho it's one of the most important patches...
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10:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> bah... it's really bad to have a file named "-"
10:15:30 <Eddi|zuHause> none of the command line tools can read it :p
10:15:43 <petern> the reflectors i ordered yesterday have arrived
10:15:47 <petern> not bad for 3 day delivery...
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10:18:16 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause, i have a file named *.*
10:19:04 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: but that's not a problem
10:19:06 <z-MaTRiX> petern, what kind of reflectors locomotive?
10:25:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a suggestion: add *.diff and *.patch to svn:ingore
10:28:01 <frosch123> I have a suggestion, add them to ~/.subversion/config
10:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that might be an idea
10:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> now i have only two unknown items left in svn status... one is a link to the home directory (~/.openttd)
10:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and the other one is a link from bin/media to media
10:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> is that one still necessary? (i think it had to do with the icon)
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11:36:32 <[wito]> Concerning non-smooth terrain:
11:36:54 <[wito]> perhaps the style in which this is handled in Rollercoaster Tycoon 1/2 could be borrowed?
11:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... suppose i have a tile, and a station, how do i get the closest station-rect tile to the tile?
11:39:17 <Rubidium> FindStationNearby or so?
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11:39:54 <Hirundo_> that, combined with a CircularTileSearch?
11:39:57 <Rubidium> FindStationsAroundTiles?
11:40:47 <Yexo> TileXY( Clamp(TileX(tile), min_x_stationrect, max_x_stationrect), Clamp(TileY(tile), min_y_stationrect, max_y_stationrect))
11:41:37 <Rubidium> hmm, read it wrongly ;)
11:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... "st->rect.left", "st->rect.right" etc.
11:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but which one is x, and which one is y?
12:00:03 <Eddi|zuHause> left appears to be x
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12:04:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i meant (left,right) or (top,bottom)
12:15:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... all uses of "WhoCanServiceIndustry" have a swtitch and cases like "case 0: ns = NS_INDUSTRY_NOBODY;", why not directly have that function return NS_*?
12:20:34 <Yexo> it's only used in 2 places, right?
12:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, at least those were the ones i could find with grep
12:26:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i was investigating whether i could change catchment radius depending on cargo type, but that would be a bigger task than i thought
12:30:33 <frosch123> really? four places I would expect
12:31:38 <frosch123> the two tiletypeprocs for accepted and produced cargo, and the functions to deliver cargo from/to stations
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12:33:37 * petern wonders where his catchment area patch went
12:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, frosch123, that is what i thought, but then this news message function popped up
12:38:12 <frosch123> what is the problem with that function, it is already not 100% correct
12:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what is not correct about it?
12:40:02 <frosch123> it uses to "production"-catchment area for both "accepts" and "produces"
12:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, it calls "FindStationsAroundTiles" without a particular cargo type in mind...
12:40:50 <frosch123> correct, and it does not test whether the station accepts the cargos
12:41:31 <frosch123> (which is likely intentional for that function)
12:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, which is probably not a big deal, but the discrepancy would increase if i, say, doubled the catchment area for passengers
12:43:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so i either use the passenger radius, and get a lot more false negatives, or i use the cargo radius, and get false positives, in case the industry deals with passengers
12:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> err, the other way round (positives, negatives)
12:43:52 <frosch123> I guess you want to increase the passenger catchment only for houses producing mail and passengers, and not for accepting
12:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't fully decided that yet. mainly i wanted the effect to decrease over distance
12:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so you'd get more passengers from close houses, and less from distant houses
12:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to do that by scaling the station rating by distance
12:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i could do that for all cargos, but it seemed more logical to do this for "self-walking" cargos only
12:49:17 <frosch123> TileLoop_Town just calls MoveGoodsToStation
12:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the function i am currently tinkering with
12:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and this function calls "FindStationsAroundTiles"
12:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which would need an additional parameter cargotype
12:52:01 <Eddi|zuHause> which would collide with the use of the same function in this news message stuff
12:52:35 <frosch123> instead of a list of stations you could return a list of pairs of station and a cargo mask
12:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause> after i have the stations i can simply modify the rating
13:15:22 <Belugas> hello bonjour ola etc etc...
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14:07:24 <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: out of curiosity, what are you working on?
14:08:09 <[wito]> anyway, on the topic of cargo destinations, or at least paxdest;
14:08:40 <[wito]> a full-fledged destination system may on the whole not be neccessary; passengers and mail just need to have, at the very least, a vague sense of direction. :P
14:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not working on destinations... this was purely about extending catchment area
14:10:23 <[wito]> yeah; I was going on about something completely different. ;)
14:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can cover an entire village with one or two bus stations, or a train station, but houses far away will consider the station to have a low rating
14:11:10 <[wito]> a couple of simple rules might replace the need for a cargo destination system, tho'
14:11:33 <[wito]> 1) Passengers know what station they were last at, and will not want to go back to it
14:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> ad 1) what about circles?
14:12:18 <[wito]> 2) Passengers may, at any given non-terminal station, either disembark or not (we'll get back to figuring out non-terminal stations)
14:12:40 <[wito]> 3) If a passengers disembarks at a station, it may either arrive or continue
14:13:25 <[wito]> 4) If it continues; it will, if the station has more than one type of vehicles, prefer a different type of vehicle to what it arrived in
14:14:21 <[wito]> 5) At terminal stations (one type of vehicle; and the vehicle they arrived in will have to turn around to leave), all passengers will always disembark and arrive
14:14:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how this would either work at all, or be less elaborate than proper destinations
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14:15:25 <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: elaborate
14:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> first of all, a vehicle will never know if it "turns around"
14:16:48 <[wito]> a station is terminal for a vehicle if the preceding and following order is the same, excluding the station itself and depots
14:17:16 <planetmaker> [wito], bad idea, if you add service orders
14:17:33 <planetmaker> or play with conditional orders
14:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> also bad idea if you have circles, A->B->C->A
14:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> none of these are "terminal stations" in your definition
14:18:14 <frosch123> also bad if you have A->non-non-stop-A
14:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and the train in question could still go through B on the way back, with a non-non-stop order
14:18:51 <frosch123> though all system fail with that one :p
14:18:52 <[wito]> frosch123: if it only has one station in the order list, OTTD throws a fit
14:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> if it would be explicitly in there, A and C would be "terminal"
14:19:08 <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: in a circle, no stations are terminal
14:19:24 <[wito]> that's how a circle works. :P
14:19:44 <Belugas> so... we are going into order analysis now... order optimisations and so on . youhou!
14:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but if you have to consider lines which have no terminal stations, you don't need to consider terminal stations for ANY line
14:20:47 <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: suppose we have: a section of an order list ...A->B->Depot->B->A...
14:21:16 <[wito]> where ... is D->C and C->D or whatever
14:21:40 <[wito]> in this case, you would want to pick up PAX at A; unload them all at B, go to the depot, load new passengers at B, and head to A
14:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what an "unload" order is for
14:22:39 <[wito]> The point of a destination system is to avoid all the tedious fiddling with orders
14:22:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to "guess" what a "terminal" station is then.
14:23:35 <[wito]> "a station is terminal for a vehicle if the preceding and following order is the same, excluding the station itself and depots" is a workable heuristic, barring some freakishly freakish layouts
14:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: suppose, i have a circular tram line: A->(...)->Main Station->(...)->A
14:24:44 <[wito]> duplicate order; OTTD throws a fit
14:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> how would your proposed destination system consider that the majority of the people would want to go to the main station?
14:25:46 <[wito]> 6) Passengers are more likely to disembark at stations with multiple vehicle types to transfer
14:26:12 <[wito]> 6b) Passengers are more likely to disembark at stations with a single vehicle type to arrive
14:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> cargodest knows that the station is "special", because it offers the largest number of connections
14:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> your proposed system knows nothing about the number of possible connections
14:27:20 <[wito]> well, you COULD add an unload all order; which would cause people to be unwilling to return to the vehicle they just disembarked
14:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> what about a major bus terminal vs. a rural bus station?
14:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you tell those apart?
14:28:18 <[wito]> ratings, number of vehicles having the station as an order, number of bays...
14:29:31 <[wito]> the two first, at least, are readily available through the interface, so I'm guessing they are fairly available in code as well
14:30:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so, then next problem, suppose a local train line connecting two major stations. a lot of people enter at station A, then there are intermediate stations 1..10, and then station B
14:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you ensure that not all people have quit by station 3, and the train running empty the rest of the way?
14:31:35 <[wito]> stations with more accepting buildings in their catchement pull more passengers off the train
14:31:58 <[wito]> you could also toy with the likelyhood of a passenger disembarking based on wether the station is an order or not
14:32:10 <welshdragon> you use the same format as locomotion: choose if the train is a local, semi - fast, or express ;)
14:32:46 <Eddi|zuHause> really, i do not see "fuzzy" destinations working well...
14:32:52 <[wito]> passengers could also have not only a vague sense of direction, but a vague sense of distance, based either on stations passed, or orders passed
14:33:17 <[wito]> most passengers WILL want to go only a few stations (local traffic is a bitch to deal with); but some will want to go far and away
14:34:30 <welshdragon> Eddi|zuHause: also: that is what non - stop orders are for
14:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you completely missed my point
14:35:30 <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: local trains (without non-stop orders) are just that; local trains
14:36:06 <[wito]> if you want to make sure people are transported fast from A to B, you build a damn ICE
14:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: the point is not if the people get anywhere "fast"
14:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> even ICEs have intermediate stops
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14:37:02 <welshdragon> what is your point then Eddi|zuHause
14:37:24 <[wito]> your worry is that people will get of your train too early, traveling only short distances, denying profit
14:37:33 <[wito]> which is what ICEs are for
14:38:45 <[wito]> but if your intermediate stations service clumps of 3 and 4 houses or really small towns; few people will disembark
14:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and what is "few"?
14:39:17 <[wito]> if it's a metro line, lots of people will embark and disembark at every station, each of them traveling pretty short
14:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> absolute number? relative number?
14:39:26 <Eddi|zuHause> relative to what?
14:39:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the number of people on the train?
14:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the capacity of the train?
14:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the number of intermediate stops?
14:39:59 <[wito]> the number of people the houses would generate
14:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> what is an intermediate stop in this consideration?
14:40:10 <[wito]> ostensibly a house accepts as much passengers as it generates
14:40:40 <[wito]> so about as many get off as get on
14:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but the station has no idea how much the houses around it produce
14:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> or if what they produce isn't already covered by a different station (with higher rating)
14:41:23 <[wito]> doesn't need to know; it knows how many passengers are AT the station
14:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> if a house is covered by two stations, it would "suck" twice the amount of passengers than it produces
14:41:50 <[wito]> if there are 12 people at a station, 12 people disembark, and 12 people embark
14:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you are getting even more silly...
14:42:53 <[wito]> it ensures symmetric demand
14:43:54 <Eddi|zuHause> what if your stations have extemely low rating so all waiting passengers have already left? you haul the same passengers back and forth because they are too afraid to leave at an empty station?
14:45:00 <[wito]> wouldn't happen; long, poorly-trafficed lines with low ratings would usually have terminal stations; where people would get off no matter what;
14:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> rural stations tend to have lower rating than main stations, so usually you bring more people to the villages than are leaving
14:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> what if the rural line is circular?
14:45:22 <[wito]> circle lines are usually metro lines which have extreme ammounts of passengers at any rate
14:45:44 <[wito]> and building a rural circle line is just silly. .P
14:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the more you speak the more i loathe your idea...
14:47:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it can't ever work properly
14:47:26 <[wito]> Don't confuse loathing me with loathing the idea. :P
14:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and you have yet to prove that it would be easier to implement than cargodest (which, btw. is already implemented)
14:48:54 <[wito]> cargodest has a couple of flaws; that aren't actually fixed by this, just sidestepped;
14:49:26 <[wito]> 1) The graph doesn't "see" intermediate stations
14:49:52 <Noldo> that's basically a feature
14:50:00 <[wito]> 2) The last revision of trunk against which CargoDest applies is r15710
14:51:06 <Noldo> lost trains accidentally hitting stations don't mess the graph
14:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the only flaw that cargodest (in itself) currently has is that it does not distinguish between stopover-stations and transfer-stations
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14:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the other flaws are stuff outside of cargodest
14:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> amount of passengers generated
14:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> chosing of destinations based on distance, connectivity, and "desirability"
14:53:04 <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: which is why I didn't mention it. :P
14:53:45 <[wito]> people don't go somewhere because it's "desirable"; they go because they need to get there
14:54:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they "desire" to get anywhere
14:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> workers/commuters will "desire" a close location, while tourists/businessmen will desire distant locations
14:54:49 <Noldo> need is just extreme desire
14:55:07 <[wito]> the principle behind "fuzzy" destinations isn't so different from cargodest; the difference is that the passengers aren't actually telling the transport company where they want to go
14:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> cargodest is not about people telling the company where they want to go, it is about the company telling the people where they CAN go
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15:10:43 <DorpsGek> Booth: help [<plugin>] [<command>]
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15:23:00 <el_en> has anyone seen it yet?
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15:30:48 <DorpsGek> Belugas: I have not seen it.
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15:55:26 <Muxy> Hi Belugas, nice weather oversea ?
15:59:54 <Belugas> yup, but i cannot enjoy it , as i am in hell of debug
16:00:24 <frosch123> better than hell of s*** :p
16:00:44 <Muxy> hum, Hell, is like Goulp... but it's a french joke
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16:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> # Ich steh auf der Brücke, und spuck in den Kahn
16:55:42 <Eddi|zuHause> # Da freut sich die Spucke, daß sie Kahn fahren kann
16:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> # Ich steh auf dem Kahn, und spuck auf die Brück'
16:56:43 <el_en> # Jetzt geeeeeeehe ich ins Kiiiiino, um Star Trrrrek zu seeeehen
16:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> # Da muß ich schnell weiter, denn die Spuck' kehrt zurück
16:57:22 <Forked> what a load of crap =p
16:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> # An der Nooooordseeeeeeküste (...)
16:58:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Forked: it's a set of "drinking songs"
16:58:33 <Forked> that language.. not so much :\ no offence intended
16:58:38 <frosch123> indeed, eddi singing crap, and ln going to watch a movie with lots of 14 year old children
16:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> el_en: do you actually know the melody to the song?
16:59:55 <el_en> nope... unless it happens to be a melody of some more famous song.
17:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> do they not teach such valuable cultural masterpieces in german class?
17:01:11 <el_en> i wonder what was the band and/or song in the german schoolbook... toten hosen or something.
17:02:20 <el_en> and there was a great "Deutsch macht Spaß" song in the book, probably made by the book authors themselves.
17:03:04 <frosch123> "toten hosen" is a popular band, yes
17:03:25 <el_en> "X und Y liegen in der Sonne..... .... ... Ich nehme mein Deutschbuch mit!"
17:04:56 <el_en> anyway, gotta go watch the movie with all the 18..20-year-old girls in the cinema. -->>
17:05:00 <frosch123> youtube "toten hosen + azzurro" is nice, though uncommon
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17:48:24 <Belugas> [12:03] <Muxy> hum, Hell, is like Goulp... but it's a french joke <-- it is? tell me !
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18:43:13 <Belugas> WHERE IS SHADOW???? I need my pet to toy with!
18:43:55 <Alberth> I think nobody is here
18:44:37 <Belugas> indeed not, my imaginary friend :)
18:44:45 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: I have not seen nobody.
18:45:25 <Alberth> hmm, even nobody is not here
18:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there something like a movie series "nobody"? (with terrance hill?)
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18:47:09 <frosch123> a horse with no name or so
18:47:26 <Belugas> #I've been to the desert
18:47:32 <Belugas> #On a horse with no name
18:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... a quick google search suggests that the name "nobody" was introduced in the german translation...
18:51:51 <frosch123> "nobody is perfect" was the also the title of the movie, wasn't it?
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19:32:15 <oskari89> Belugas: Is it possible to code signal gui so, that you can have two different style signals for one function signal, like PBS signal with 2 different graphics?
19:32:57 <Noldo> aren't there semaphores and signals already?
19:33:01 <petern> *cough* semaphore vs light signals *cough*
19:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the signal gui already HAS two different graphics styles
19:33:15 <Noldo> petern: were you first on your screen?
19:34:13 <oskari89> Hmm. Can there be second type of light signals?
19:34:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can replace the semaphore graphics with light signal graphics, then you have two light signal styles
19:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrfs have an action for replacing signal graphics
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19:46:30 <Belugas> like Eddi|zuHause said
19:47:07 <Belugas> oskari89, might be a bit more helpful if you could tell us why you'd want that
19:55:31 <Sacro> like errm, splitting signals
19:55:40 <Sacro> and theatre aspects and such
19:56:39 <oskari89> Could any signal be programmed to read next signal's aspect?
19:57:53 <oskari89> And therefore, showing three aspects, on same signal?
19:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> signals can only show "red" or "green"
19:59:19 <Eddi|zuHause> especially you cannot know what the "next" signal is, because there can be switches inbetween
19:59:58 <Eddi|zuHause> especially with PBS
20:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you can only know what the next signal is, if the path is already reserved, but in this case, the signal already shows green
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20:12:55 <el_en> i was already wondering what kind of a premiere this is, but then i saw someone wearing a DS9-style science officer's uniform.
20:15:03 <el_en> anyway, surprisingly many girls/women present, and surprisingly many of them even alone.
20:16:38 <frosch123> so you think that was the reason they were there?
20:19:35 <frosch123> the single girls choosing for a men-only film
20:20:35 <el_en> well clearly they failed, as i'd say the distribution was almost 50/50 per cent.
20:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you have "premiere" on fridays?
20:21:53 <el_en> typically yes... in fact almost always.
20:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> new films generally start thursdays in germany, which means premieres are usually in the night from wednesday to thursday
20:22:59 <Muxy> Hi, i'm Back ! Still here Belugas ?
20:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> in rare cases this means that films start one day in advance of the american start date
20:23:38 <Muxy> The Goulp is a jail for the shadocks
20:24:12 <Muxy> the shadocks : GA BU ZO MEU
20:24:34 <el_en> there was quite an unexpected product placement quite in the begin...
20:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like bad sience fiction or fantasy
20:25:07 <Muxy> and the joke is "Le Goulp c'est l'enfer, car ils sont enfermés"
20:26:04 <Muxy> That's why Goulp is Hell !
20:28:07 <frosch123> it's Wolf01's job to post those images
20:28:51 <Wolf01> I post only interesting links such the one I posted today but nobody noticed it
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20:32:37 <Belugas> moi pas comprendre, moi trop viewx
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20:42:29 <planetmaker> in the scenario editor with tropical climate: it's easy to convert land into desert. is there also the reverse way possible, converting desert into fertile land?
20:44:11 <frosch123> that planetmaker did not figure that out my himself ... :p
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20:46:18 <planetmaker> hm... I could have sworn I tried :P
20:46:23 <planetmaker> better I don't though
20:46:32 <planetmaker> must have missed the ctrl key :D
20:46:41 <planetmaker> and hit alt instead
20:46:52 <frosch123> I discovered it when I considered to write a patch for that "feature" :)
20:47:40 <planetmaker> frosch123: I just considered that, too. But I wanted to ask first :D
20:48:06 <Belugas> note: my son made me discovered that too about 2 months ago :S
20:48:10 <planetmaker> would have been faster than making a new map...
20:48:28 <planetmaker> seems to be a really hidden feature ;)
20:48:28 <Ammler> I wuld say, ctrl rocks :P
20:49:32 <planetmaker> but even the translated tool tip correctly tells me that ctrl modifies it to remove desert... :)
20:49:38 <planetmaker> so... I *might* know
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20:52:18 <planetmaker> ha. But I cannot change desert<->fertile for water or shore tiles. I consider that a bug
20:52:36 <petern> and you know what to do with bugs
20:53:06 <planetmaker> because you might then have desert water tiles :) - which leads to funny desert,fertile shores :)
20:53:31 <Belugas> kill the bugger kill the bugger kill the bugger!!
20:56:57 <TrueBrain> finally all my home pcs are IPv6 connected :)
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21:10:16 <Chruker> So now you can add device number 4bn +1 ?
21:13:01 <planetmaker> hm... where actually is the scenario editor found in? Which source files?
21:13:32 <planetmaker> it's not terraform - or I missed it.
21:14:07 <frosch123> maybe parts are also in misc_gui
21:35:17 <Westie> He's standing on that platform
21:57:50 <Westie> Anyone got any spades?
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22:49:20 <Eddi|zuHause> # I know that the spades, are the swords of soldiers
22:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> # I know that the clubs, are weapons of war
22:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> # I know that the diamonds, mean money for this art
22:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause> # But that's not the shape of my heart
22:57:53 <Nite_Owl> also how can you tell if there is an elephant in your refrigerator
22:58:45 <planetmaker> open door, look, close door ;)
22:59:20 <Nite_Owl> you can see his footprints in the cheesecake
23:01:30 <Nite_Owl> what game do elephants like to play the most
23:08:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
23:10:11 <tokai> Hmpf.. now I probably missed all the startling comments about my desktop Elephants, because the network operation timeout:)
23:10:41 *** TinoDidriksen has joined #openttd
23:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> luckily, there are IRC logs, which are censo^W proof that there was no talk about your elephants whatsoever
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23:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> while we are at stupid jokes
23:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you get four dinosaurs into a beetle
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