IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-03-10
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00:39:33 *** Rubidium changes topic to "0.6.3, 0.7.0-beta2 | Website: *.openttd.org (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator:"
00:39:33 <Rubidium> translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches &
00:39:36 <Rubidium> Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices |
00:40:22 *** Rubidium changes topic to "0.6.3, 0.7.0-beta2 | Website: *.openttd.org (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only | Discussion of realism is now a quietable offence"
00:40:30 <Rubidium> why do I always fail with topics?
00:44:29 <goodger> Rubidium: there is a small but vocal school of thought that posits that you are partially constructed from the medium of fail
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01:04:49 <welshdragon> hmm, i tried o do IS on my own machine, it failed
01:05:02 * welshdragon was trying to run two clients locally
01:05:08 <welshdragon> something about the protocol?
01:06:58 <welshdragon> never mind, it works now :)
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05:05:22 <db48x> anyone around? I've written a patch that works even though it shouldn't
05:05:28 <db48x> I'd like to understand why
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05:50:50 <dihedral> fairplay 23820 0.4 0.8 326016 8456 pts/1 Ss+ Mar09 2:30 ./openttd -c openttd.cfg -D
05:50:56 <dihedral> problem still exists
05:56:17 <petern> dihedral, who said it wouldn't?
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06:53:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15662 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11795): Don't mark a company as having ratings in a town when querying the cost of a command.
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07:01:18 <dihedral> petern: i assumed, because of the one commit by michi_cc
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07:53:22 <dihedral> sorry pm, i was on a seminar on sat
07:53:39 <planetmaker> hey dih :) No worries
07:54:12 <planetmaker> btw, which e-mail do you prefer me to use?
07:54:31 <planetmaker> And I hope the seminar was fun and joyful?
07:55:11 <dihedral> i knew it! i always knew it!
07:55:24 <dihedral> the seminar was great :-)
07:55:33 <dihedral> was a very well filled 24 hours
07:55:34 <planetmaker> what was it about?
07:56:14 <dihedral> got there at 10am, and there was always something going on until 4am
07:56:19 <planetmaker> so you know now everything how to tend a horde of fleds?
07:56:47 <dihedral> but i know i need to learn more than i assumed before :-P
07:57:18 <planetmaker> better than vice versa :) - then things get boring ;)
07:57:46 <dihedral> but the teens that were there, were a good bunch of fun
07:58:08 <dihedral> though i did not agree with one particular situation tbh
07:58:17 <dihedral> 3 people decided......
07:58:24 <dihedral> that 2 would grab me by hands and fee
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07:58:43 <dihedral> the third opened the window, they threw me out and closed the window again
07:59:16 <dihedral> thankfully we were on the ground floor hehe
07:59:23 <planetmaker> :) I can easily imagine :)
07:59:36 <planetmaker> oh, I would have thought there was a water basin or so :P
08:00:28 <planetmaker> or swimming pools. Make good "dump locations" for people carried like you describe :P
08:01:03 <planetmaker> It's considerate to take their wallet, mobile and watch of them before, though :S
08:01:31 <AmixE90> If you are me and havent slept in 17 hours. Whats best to eat to stay awake?
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08:01:50 <planetmaker> Luckily I'm not you :P
08:02:48 <dihedral> well, i did tease them a bit for that, so i had my fun too :-D
08:03:53 <DASPRiD> AmixE90, something with 600,000 scoville
08:09:59 <AmixE90> I didnt get sleep last night. Dont know why
08:15:16 <AmixE90> I just need to turn my internal biological clock. When i work late shifts its hard to goto sleep when done at 22. I said to myself. Goto sleep at 23.00, but I ended up at 02.00 and then someone messaged me and clock became 04. Impossible to get some
08:15:34 <AmixE90> and work started 08,..
08:17:11 * DASPRiD resets AmixE90' biological clock
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08:41:13 <AmixE90> I am not a coffee person, so for me its painfull. But i like pain ;)
08:44:12 <Ammler> 31738 openttd 25 10 352m 16m 3424 R 0 0.8 70:38.67 openttd <-- there might be still a leak somewhere ;-/
08:44:37 <Rubidium> it's only using 16 MB
08:45:03 <Ammler> oh, that was also before
08:45:15 <Ammler> onvly virtual mem rised
08:47:37 <Ammler> it is much better anyway, as we would have around 1 GB now...
08:50:37 <planetmaker> he... still a leak left? :S
08:51:22 <planetmaker> Hm, Rubidium, the mem leak fix isn't in the current nightly, is it?
08:51:39 <planetmaker> it will only be in the upcoming one?
08:51:58 <Ammler> ah, I thought it's r15652
08:52:43 <petern> you know there's more than one line of code?
08:52:47 <planetmaker> he... I think so, too :)
08:52:58 <planetmaker> petern: oh.... now you mention it :P
08:53:10 <petern> well you know there may be more than one leak right?
08:53:41 <planetmaker> petern: sure. But the hope that _one_ fix might have fixed it could have been a valid one :)
08:54:33 <planetmaker> [09:47] <Ammler> it is much better anyway, as we would have around 1 GB now... <-- and I think that was hinted here, too :)
08:54:43 <Rubidium> Ammler/petern: does the kernel on your machine have pax?
08:56:24 <planetmaker> hm... dunno what it is. man pax doesn't return anything. Should it?
08:56:36 <Rubidium> it's something in the kernel
08:57:25 <planetmaker> Linux tenshi 2.6.18.1.20061115-ralph.33.p4 #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Nov 15 19:43:27 CET 2006 i686 GNU/Linux
08:57:37 <planetmaker> ^^ can that help to tell?
08:57:48 <planetmaker> or: how do I find out?
08:58:30 <Rubidium> do you have a /proc/config.gz ?
09:00:59 <planetmaker> there's no /proc/config*
09:04:31 <planetmaker> but test.c seems to have constant virtual memory
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09:05:24 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that's on a machine where vsize increases over time, right?
09:05:52 <planetmaker> it's the publicserver machine. So afaik yes
09:06:45 <planetmaker> yes. We have already 8mb more for our PS than Ammler posted 15 or 30 minutes ago...
09:06:52 <Ammler> the virtual memory there was around 2-3GB after a day
09:07:17 <planetmaker> 31738 openttd 25 10 368m 16m 3424 S 0 0.8 70:38.73 openttd
09:07:54 <planetmaker> [09:44] <Ammler> 31738 openttd 25 10 352m 16m 3424 R 0 0.8 70:38.67 <-- 25 minutes ago
09:09:02 <Rubidium> what does pmap tell about the process?
09:09:12 <Ammler> Rubidium: that is a "real" server no vps like mine or dih's
09:10:04 <planetmaker> well. The only difference is, that this won't get an OOM error - or?
09:10:27 <Ammler> vps has a silly limit at 700 MB or so
09:16:53 <petern> i don't have a proc config -- it's a standard debian lenny kernel
09:26:16 <racetrack> debian keeps its config in /boot/config*
09:26:25 <racetrack> but you don't have pax in a stock kernel
09:26:58 <racetrack> you need to install linux-patch-grsecurity2 and then rebuild the kernel to get it
09:28:59 <planetmaker> Rubidium: does the config help you, given we have a default debian sarge kernel?
09:29:39 <Ammler> 2.6.18.1.20061115-ralph.33.p4 <-- doesn't look like default
09:29:41 <Rubidium> no, just hoped to get some clue whether pax might be installed
09:30:00 <planetmaker> hm, ok. But Ammler's right. Doesn't look like default.
09:30:15 <Ammler> we need to ask Phoenix...
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09:34:46 <AmixE90> OpenTTD should get a file archive like www.aminet.net
09:35:12 <AmixE90> where every newgrf is listed etc
09:35:49 <Ammler> AmixE90: you missed bananas :P
09:36:11 <AmixE90> OpenTTD crawler is basicly ok. But if it was like aminet.net, it would be easier i think
09:37:11 <petern> which is easier, i think
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10:00:36 <petern> it is a tag... tags/0.7.0-beta2
10:01:11 <[wito]> so 15661 (the revision where that got introduced)
10:01:53 <petern> there are some changes in the tag though
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10:08:39 <petern> heh, my ottd process gets bigger, but that might just be valgrind :p
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10:12:40 <Rubidium> might it be happening every time OpenTTD advertises?
10:16:31 <dihedral> Rubidium, i put my server in pause mode and will watch it for some time
10:16:56 <dihedral> if it's clients or advertising, then it'll show in paused mode too ^^
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10:18:35 <Rubidium> it grows ~ 1GB per day?
10:18:54 <dihedral> i have a 512x512 map
10:19:24 <dihedral> it's exceeds ~600 MB within about 18 hours
10:19:38 <petern> dunno about per day, i only noticed at it 3GB after 2 weeks
10:20:27 <Rubidium> sounds about right; 8 MB per 15 minutes
10:24:56 <dihedral> Rubidium, 8MB in 15 mins sounds too much to be caused by advertising or client connects
10:24:57 <petern> i changed interval to 9 seconds
10:25:08 <dihedral> (at least for client connections)
10:25:08 <petern> and it goes up 8MB every 9 seconds
10:25:18 <dihedral> petern, which interval?
10:26:12 <planetmaker> You'll need much hot-plugging ram :)
10:26:49 <petern> Rubidium hits the mark
10:27:20 <petern> petern 10777 0.5 0.1 176084 4860 pts/3 S+ 10:24 0:00 bin/openttd -D
10:28:06 <petern> why i suspected it but didn't test this i don't know :o
10:31:29 <dihedral> at least you know where to look for the bug in the code now :-D
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10:43:40 <petern> that is most definitely the spot
10:44:01 <petern> petern 10777 0.3 0.1 1028468 6940 pts/3 S+ 10:24 0:04 bin/openttd -D
10:44:07 <petern> 6.9MB resident, overwise
10:44:58 <petern> however, advertising appears to use threads new
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10:48:18 <petern> incidentally, valgrind does not see it ever
10:48:23 <petern> so that would never've helped
10:49:49 <Noldo> it can't follow threads
10:51:35 <petern> it doesn't see it as lost, anyway
10:53:11 <Rubidium> so we need to start garbage collecting fire and forget threads :(
10:53:11 <petern> i figured out what it does now
10:53:53 <petern> doesn't increase with the threading removied
10:54:48 <petern> what needs collection, though? :o
10:56:17 <Rubidium> hmm, or detach the threads
10:56:22 <SmatZ> that unjoined thread can hardly leave 8MB :-x
10:57:07 <SmatZ> Rubidium: yesterday (or the day before yesterday?) you said detaching doesn't help
10:57:26 <petern> give me a patch and i'll try it
10:57:33 <petern> it's fairly obviously reproducable for me :)
10:57:53 <Rubidium> SmatZ: it doesn't leave 8 MB
10:58:18 <Rubidium> it just doesn't tell the VM to release the stack region
11:00:04 <dihedral> why does it have to run in it's own thread? or am i getting something wrong?
11:00:23 <petern> dihedral: name resolution may hang the server, basically
11:00:32 <petern> i think it's your fault
11:00:41 <dihedral> yes, i recall mentioning it :-P
11:00:42 <petern> bananas locking it up...
11:01:22 <dihedral> but then - using bananas would also leak like hell
11:01:55 <dihedral> btw, if you moved the 'masterserver' and 'bananas' hostname to the config
11:02:17 <dihedral> and it could be changed if you ever got a new ip
11:02:19 <Rubidium> and then get people whining because that IP got changed?
11:02:33 <dihedral> then you'd not get the lookup at least ^^
11:02:45 <dihedral> and people could run their own region based masterserver
11:02:54 <dihedral> was just a wiled guess
11:03:07 <petern> jumps to 20MB, but then stays there
11:03:30 <dihedral> eh.... does it do a lookup each time it wants to advertise?
11:03:46 <petern> thing of long running servers...
11:03:58 <petern> why bother if this patch fixes it?
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11:04:10 <dihedral> because it's unneeded overhead
11:04:26 <dihedral> overhead is overhead
11:04:29 <Rubidium> the first 8 MB bump can be the stack that gets allocated and then it gets recycled
11:04:43 <petern> Rubidium, yeah, that's what i was thinking
11:04:55 <Rubidium> dihedral: it's less overhead than the gazillion people whining their server isn't advertised anymore when we move the masterserver again
11:05:16 <petern> so unless there are side affects, that fixes it
11:05:47 <dihedral> ok - cache the lookup for each game
11:05:52 <dihedral> i.e. newgame does a new lookup
11:06:02 <dihedral> then only the unmanaged game would not move to the new ms
11:06:13 <dihedral> or not be advertised
11:06:30 <Rubidium> no would e.g. openttdcoop
11:06:42 <Rubidium> nor would e.g. dihedrals autonightly
11:06:53 <Rubidium> *until* a new game is loaded
11:06:58 <Rubidium> which might be 24 hours later
11:07:00 <dihedral> openttdcoop is restarted more than once during a game iirc
11:07:12 <dihedral> my server restarts every 24h
11:07:25 <Rubidium> so it'd be 24 hours unadvertised
11:07:33 <dihedral> + there could be a console command to force emtpying the cached lookups
11:07:43 <dihedral> but i get your point
11:07:45 <petern> just apply this tiny patch
11:08:34 <petern> i wonder how often ohloh checks mercurial repos
11:08:39 <Rubidium> or... add master.openttd.org to your hosts file and the lookup will be almost free
11:08:51 <dihedral> Rubidium, nice idea ^^
11:09:52 <petern> we could hard code the IP!
11:10:08 <petern> hard code the list of servers
11:10:52 <dihedral> why does that thread need 8MB btw (just out of curiosity)
11:11:07 <Rubidium> $default-initial-stack-size
11:12:21 <dihedral> btw - dns changes dont propagate that fast anyway, so you could cache the dns details in openttd for some time anyway :-D
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11:12:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15663 /trunk/src/thread_pthread.cpp: -Fix: growing of vsize as (some) threads weren't properly released.
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11:12:47 * dihedral looks forward to todays nightly
11:13:25 <SmatZ> does r15663 apply to win32 threads too?
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11:13:59 <Rubidium> no idea + have fun digging in Windows to find out
11:14:07 <petern> everyone expects windows to leak anyway :D
11:14:39 <Rubidium> after all, what's 1 GB of vsize? After that you need to reboot windows anyways ;)
11:19:23 * petern ponders trying to update pidgin to keep up with ICQ's client restrictions...
11:19:39 <petern> or just ditching icq finally :p
11:20:04 <petern> i have xmpp but nobody else does :o
11:32:56 <planetmaker> he :) good job :)
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11:45:29 <sailo> aloahee. Somehow, I cannot get the console anymore by pressing ^ twice, like I used to do earlier. using 0.6.3. Any ideas? I don't always want to go to the menu up there in the game...
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11:49:45 <planetmaker> it's always been the key left of 1
11:49:54 <sailo> yes, that's the one it was.
11:50:14 <sailo> any ideas why it is not working in openttd anymore? I mean, it works otherwise: ^ ^
11:50:31 <planetmaker> on German keyboard(s)
11:51:00 <sailo> ok, so why would it not work here?
11:51:07 <planetmaker> Maybe you have a funnily working caps lock key?
11:51:12 <dihedral> if i press the button twice, i dont get a console either, well i get it by pressing it once, and it dissapears magically again when i press the key a second time
11:51:32 <dihedral> or you changed the keyboard layout?
11:51:34 <planetmaker> well. Configured such that it works on that key, too :)
11:51:49 <dihedral> i.e. pressed alt+shift on a windows system
11:53:02 <sailo> no, I tried several different keyboard layouts, nothing works. And I still have it: ^^ ^^ ;-)
11:54:49 <petern> i'd totally have one of those if i could use flat keyboards these days
11:54:55 <sailo> no, also not the ' key or " key
11:56:34 <[wito]> I have a german keyboard. ;D
11:57:04 <Forked> one at home, one at work.
11:58:06 <petern> yeah, with the correct non-US layout
11:59:28 <Forked> £65 for the one I have at home.. I got the job to pay for the one I use there.. and yes. Norwegian layout. V2 of the keyboard, so less G keys
11:59:30 <sailo> ok guys. Sorry I got it. It was the keyboard layout. Didn't see that I had keyboard layout specific to the windows.
11:59:39 <petern> the das keyboard, i mean
11:59:48 <petern> i wouldn't pay 15p for a logitech keyboard
12:02:36 <petern> heh, there are two versions of the G15
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12:05:56 <Forked> at least it's not called v2.0 :)
12:11:26 <planetmaker> Forked: now, that usb-"stick" is a nasty "feature" :P
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12:35:38 <taisteluorava> oh nice, 0.7.0 beta2 is now on site
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12:43:17 <Ammler> a OT question, how do I checkout a deleted branch from svn?
12:43:25 <Ammler> > svn -r 15000 list svn://svn.openttd.org/3rdparty
12:43:26 <Ammler> svn: File not found: revision 15663, path '/3rdparty'
12:44:00 <FauxFaux> That looks right, is that old enough?
12:44:04 <Rubidium> try adding @15000 to the url
12:44:33 <Ammler> Rubidium: yep, thanks :-)
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12:46:09 <taisteluorava> which way is easiest to upgrade 0.7.0beta1 to beta2?
12:47:41 <taisteluorava> so i can keep my old setups and settings in config file
12:48:17 <Ammler> taisteluorava: the config is already stored in a other place then the binary.
12:49:33 <taisteluorava> so i can just "overinstall" with beta 2 installer?
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12:52:33 <taisteluorava> did it and now keep getting error "no available language packs (invalid versions?)
12:52:47 <taisteluorava> i need change it to english in config file?
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12:53:28 <Rubidium> how did you install the previous versions?
12:53:42 <Rubidium> and did you use the installer this time?
12:53:48 <taisteluorava> no, both time with installer
12:53:58 <taisteluorava> using finnish language
12:54:37 <taisteluorava> its not opening even with english
12:54:41 <Rubidium> that error means that there is no language pack at all for the version you've installed
12:55:05 <Rubidium> is there a lang directory in my documents/openttd ?
12:55:22 <taisteluorava> no, its in openttd folder
12:57:30 <Rubidium> do a search for english.lng on your disks an see whether it shows up twice
12:57:33 <taisteluorava> i overinstalled 1 more time and it work now
12:57:51 <Rubidium> sounds like the installer got aborted for some strange reason
12:58:01 <taisteluorava> had game opened while first install was open, maybe for that ^^
12:58:24 <taisteluorava> forgot that i had game open ^^
12:58:50 <Rubidium> Windows doesn't like to replace opened files
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13:36:39 <dihedral> <Ammler> [13:43:17] a OT question, how do I checkout a deleted branch from svn? <- also svn help [<sub-command>] might be helpful!
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13:37:23 <dihedral> it's help to how find help, glx ;-)
13:37:32 <dihedral> not help to the specific question
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13:42:30 <petern> unfortunately, you can't say that to customers, for example
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13:49:58 <taisteluorava> how i can load a game with server?
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13:50:48 <taisteluorava> i tried command load (mypassword) C:\xxxxxx\xxx\xxxxx\OpenTTD\save\autosave\game1 but nothing happened
13:53:21 <dihedral> iirc you must be in the dir of the save game
13:53:29 <dihedral> or try appending the .sav
13:53:55 <dihedral> use the cd command and ls, find the number of the file you want to load and to a load <number>
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13:59:35 <Peter2> sagt mal. in der linux amd64 version von ottd. wie komm ich da in die konsole? "^^" funzt bei mir iwie nicht
14:00:38 <Peter2> how can i open the consol on a amd64 linux version of ottd?
14:00:50 <Peter2> "^^" does not work for me
14:01:29 <Belugas> have you tried the " ~ "?
14:03:06 <Rubidium> is there any window open that has an input field?
14:03:25 <Rubidium> like the chat window or the rename <whatever> window
14:05:58 <Rubidium> then I've got no idea as it works on my 64 bits machine
14:07:05 <Peter2> i just opend the console
14:07:19 <Peter2> by pressing ALT GR + ^
14:07:56 <petern> your solution is to use a proper keyboard layout ;)
14:08:27 <Peter2> i am using the defaut german keybord layout
14:09:01 <Peter2> should i switch to a russian one?
14:11:46 <[wito]> what's the maximum noise for a city?
14:12:19 <Belugas> it depends of the size of the city
14:13:36 <Belugas> that much i can tell you
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14:40:31 <Belugas> [wito] : return ((this->population / _settings_game.economy.town_noise_population[_settings_game.difficulty.town_council_tolerance]) + 3);
14:40:38 <Belugas> does that help you out?
14:55:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r15664 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix [FS#2716]: as always windows needs special handling when strings are involved
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16:56:12 <|Japa|> some people have no sense of scale
16:58:26 <|Japa|> would make a cool weapon, tho
16:58:40 <|Japa|> or, if the aim is right, a great transportation
16:59:01 <Belugas> cannot put them togueter in my mind...
16:59:08 <blathijs> What is it supposed to be anyway?
16:59:18 <Belugas> unless the said weapin was a flower... or a poem...
16:59:29 <welshdragon> looks like a maglev depot
16:59:32 <|Japa|> a guy on a furum I go to made the gun, and I'm trying to show him the whack scale
17:00:10 <[wito]> Belugas: what about a robot that vaporizes Nazis and rescues puppies and kittens from trees at the same time?
17:00:39 <energetic> it is actually a known serious design
17:00:54 <energetic> with quite a chance to actually being built!
17:01:19 <energetic> it consists of a maglev lane into the sky, skyrocketing out maglev trains
17:02:20 <energetic> maglev trains then will fly (using the gained upward power) to their destination, where a maglev lane "catches" the maglev train and breaks it untill speed=zero
17:03:12 <energetic> so most power of the journey can be simply electrical energy
17:05:09 <[wito]> a power outage at the receiving end would be quite catastrophical
17:06:01 <[wito]> SkyMagLev: Really Friggin Cool Transportation for the Brave and the Foolhardy!
17:06:19 <energetic> cant find direct links on the web
17:06:23 <energetic> wonder where I read it
17:06:46 <[wito]> Crazy-Ass Shit Online? :P
17:07:05 <energetic> the idea was to use the stratosphere, so you actually get somewhere on earth
17:07:16 <[wito]> but I've heard about a similar system for launching rockets
17:07:28 <[wito]> basically a jet-sled railway launcher
17:07:39 <energetic> if you needed to get on other side, you would need multiple stops (i though max 1-2)
17:08:38 <[wito]> mag-lev rocket launchers could potentially be quite safe and clean ways of launching sattelites into space
17:09:04 <energetic> maglev has quite some future i think
17:09:17 <energetic> if more ppl would think so...
17:11:12 <planetmaker> the best weapon still is the human mind, an idea brought forward at the right time :)...
17:11:33 <|Japa|> I just wish dirigibles would be more popular
17:11:34 <planetmaker> [wito]: a maglev rocket launcher is not quite feasable...
17:12:11 <planetmaker> you might have read it - as it's a classical Jules Verne invention
17:14:12 <planetmaker> but it's anything but safe.
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17:28:45 <petern> snd_seq_open() apparently leaks memory :(
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17:38:20 <[wito]> bridgeheads can be either level or elevated;
17:38:24 <[wito]> why not do the same for tunnels?
17:38:37 <[wito]> (think SC2K-style subway <-> rail transitions)
17:39:27 <Burns> there should be a clear list in multiplayer serverlist menu, when selecting internet and clicking refresh then if you want to search for LAN games the list is still full with internet servers
17:40:45 <Wolf01> [wito], do you mean a tunnel with the entrance on a plain tile?
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17:43:39 <[wito]> a tunnel where one entrance "swallows" the train into the ground
17:48:53 <Wolf01> but before that we need tunnels on diagonal slopes, one side will be terraformed, so you can build 2 parallel tunnels with an offset
17:50:58 <Belugas> i vaguely remember celestar and i working/discussing that concept
17:51:20 <Belugas> dig a hole, put the tunnel there
17:51:45 <Belugas> plus, no graphics to use for...
17:52:01 <Belugas> and devs are soooo.... good with graphics..
17:52:12 <Belugas> apart skiddl13, but he's not around anymore
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17:55:07 <Wolf01> (this is a 2005 topic, don't revive it please :P)
17:55:10 <Rubidium> sorry, but you've lost your bet ;)
17:55:34 <Rubidium> what was the nearest future when you said that is now already the past and it's still not implemented
17:56:15 <Wolf01> nearest as 1 day-to-6 months
17:56:33 <Rubidium> then it certainly isn't nearest
17:57:02 <Rubidium> it could be near future though
17:57:47 <[wito]> tunnel through foundations, great stuff
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18:00:01 <[wito]> what do you all think of how to construct local parts of local-ICE networks?
18:00:10 <Wolf01> cbh and basetunnels are better, but until somebody (not me) codes a good implementation we might have some minor features like that
18:00:16 <[wito]> single-track spokes, shared track or dedicated 2-track spokes?
18:01:06 <Wolf01> dedicated 8 parallel tracks :P
18:01:38 <Wolf01> "transform your map on a mainboard"
18:01:48 <planetmaker> Wolf01: are you sure that's sufficien capacity for those tracks?
18:03:57 <Wolf01> depends on the length, if a train can't do 20 travels at month you can always make 8x2 tracks and use more trains
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18:33:12 <Burns> how long does a crashed cerpelin lies at my airport?
18:34:44 <|Japa|> something tells me they don't resemble the simcity ones
18:35:06 <Burns> i just got a cerpelin from nowhere crached at my airport for example :(
18:35:15 <Belugas> ho... you Are not aware? Openttd is not simcity
18:35:37 <frosch123> no, it is "tycoon something something"
18:36:44 <Belugas> or... something tycoon something :D
18:36:57 <Rubidium> so it stays about half a year
18:38:52 <Lakie> Transport Tycoon is about transport and not about making beautiful cities...
18:38:52 <Belugas> that long? i have totally forgotten
18:39:12 <NukeBuster> why doesn't the content manager list all the entries? I can view more grfs on bananas.openttd.org
18:39:43 <Rubidium> because those you can't see in OpenTTD aren't compatible with that version according to the author
18:41:10 <petern> did plane crashes ever get fixed for the reduced calls to the tick handler?
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18:41:50 <Lakie> Interesting, when did this come around orginally I thought there was a concenous against it due to copy right issues around grfs?
18:43:05 <Prof_Frink> The copyright owner has to put it on bananas in the first place
18:43:25 <Rubidium> instead of any random openttd binary redistributing it
18:43:34 <|Japa|> reason I ask is because difficulty options have a disaster setting
18:43:57 <Rubidium> |Japa|: check the wiki page about disasters
18:44:08 *** |Japa| was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
18:44:51 <energetic> !passwor no dont kick me
18:45:06 <Burns> haha, what stupid script is that to kick just beacause you say !something?
18:45:47 <glx> it indicates where to use the command
18:46:47 <Lakie> So basically, by having the original authors post them up, you can validate that they want it distribute through it and are willing to waver the copyright issues around that system distributing it to fans?
18:47:16 <Burns> be kind to the noobs, they are the ones that are going to play your game, hopefully...
18:47:24 <planetmaker> Lakie: they have to agree to the terms of servicew
18:47:34 <planetmaker> no one is forced to upload his/her grfs there.
18:47:40 <Rubidium> Lakie: they grant us to do so
18:47:53 <planetmaker> better wording :)
18:48:09 <Lakie> How do you deal with people who upload others work?
18:48:16 <glx> Burns: noobs usually don't know !commands so they don't type them
18:48:22 <Rubidium> Lakie: ban + removal
18:51:25 <Lakie> Oh, one last thing, it mentions an ingame client, does it check versions (like x only works with rR+) or was that unimplemented?
18:54:12 * Lakie reads up on the Wiki about it, 0.7 feature I'm assuming?
18:55:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15665 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:
18:55:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix (r8973): Handling of aircraft crash counter did not take account of the
18:55:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: reduced number of calls (from 6 down to 2) to the aircraft event handler,
18:55:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: resulting in crashed aircraft taking three times longer than they should to
18:55:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: clear. Compensate by increasing the counter by 3 on every call instead of 1.
18:55:50 <planetmaker> wow. That's an old fix :) 9k revisions nearly
18:55:50 <Prof_Frink> Wrighty'll like that patch
18:57:15 <glx> planetmaker is very good at math ;)
18:57:51 <planetmaker> Astrophysicist do maths by orders of magnitude only :P
18:58:08 <planetmaker> the rest is observational error anyway :P
18:59:15 <Rubidium> that's closest one can get I'd say ;)
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19:01:12 <Rubidium> hmm... that thing's still alive?
19:01:24 <Rubidium> petern: quickly highlight everyone ;)
19:02:31 *** const86 has joined #openttd
19:02:37 <DorpsGek> petern: [sleep]buster, [wito], Aali, Ammler, Andel, apo_, Belugas, Bergee, blathijs, Born_Acorn, Brokkoli, Burns, canidae, ccfreak2k, CIA-1, const86, Cybertinus, DaleStan, Darkvater, DASPRiD, db48x, De_Ghosty, DephNet[Paul], dfox, dihedral, DorpsGek, Dr_Jekyll, edeca, elmex, energetic, eQualizer, FauxFaux, Felicitus, FloSoft, Forked, frosch123, Fuco, George, glx, goodger, Guest1044, guru3, HansAffe, helb, HerzogDeXtEr, (2 more messages)
19:02:40 <DorpsGek> petern: jpm_, KenjiE20, KingJ, Lakie, lobster, lolman, lstor, M4rk, Maarten-, Mark, michi_cc, mikegrb, Mortomes, MrFrans, Mucht, murr4y_, neli, nfc, Noldo, NukeBuster, orudge, Osai, OwenS, petern, PierreW, planetmaker, prakti, Prof_Frink, Progman, racetrack, Rexxars, Ridayah_, Rubidium, Sacro, sexten, sigmund_, Sionide, SmatZ, smeding, snorre, SpBot, SpComb, SpComb^, Splex, stillunknown, strid, stuffcorpse, sunkan, (1 more message)
19:02:42 <DorpsGek> petern: svip, taisteluorava, tapio, Tefad, TheMask96, thingwath, TinoDidriksen, tneo, tokai, tosse, totalwormage, TSC, valhalla1w, Vikthor, welshdragon, welterde, Wolf01, wolfy, XeryusTC, Yeggstry, Yexo, Zahl, |Japa|, and |Jeroen|
19:03:03 <petern> when did we get heightmap and scenario support in bananas?
19:03:34 <Rubidium> petern: few days ago
19:03:38 * Lakie downloads x64 0.7 to try out Bananas
19:03:53 *** wolfy is now known as Wolfensteijn
19:04:01 <petern> tip guys, if you get upset by a little highlight, don't bother idling without ever saying anything :p
19:04:13 <Wolfensteijn> I'm not upset ;)
19:04:17 <Prof_Frink> Didnae highlight me
19:04:44 <MrFrans> I don;t think anyone is upset,
19:05:10 <petern> "grrr" "GAH" "*stabs*" "." :D
19:05:37 <petern> oh there's a mars heightmap hmm
19:05:54 <petern> and a Wales and Westengland (wtf?) scenario...
19:06:20 <Ammler> I hope, nobody will license the scenario with ND
19:06:48 <Ammler> no derviate or so = no playing ;-)
19:06:54 <planetmaker> Ammler: it's already too late
19:06:56 <frosch123> petern: and a hand-drawn usa scenario 2k x 2k oO
19:07:01 <planetmaker> Netherlands scenario is
19:07:31 <petern> hehe with signs at the start which are off the screen
19:07:39 <petern> because people assume their centre is the same as everyone else's
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19:11:12 <Yexo> Ammler: playing is fine, uploading the savegame is debatable
19:13:16 <Darkvater> you have awaken me from my slumber
19:13:35 <Ammler> is it possible to get rid of that apache error msg: [Tue Mar 10 20:10:28 2009] [error] [client 91.0.150.4] Not trusting file /home/ottdc/hg-repos/is2/.hg/hgrc from untrusted user ottdc, group ottdc
19:13:37 <Darkvater> fear for you do not know what you force you have unleashed upon this earth
19:14:14 <Wolf01> [20:06:26] <Ammler> I hope, nobody will license the scenario with ND <- I was attracted from it, but at last I chose SA :P
19:14:24 <DorpsGek> Darkvater: truebrain was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 31 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> I hope it pays money
19:14:57 <Darkvater> hmm I wonder how I can make lighttpd hide certain files in a dir-listing
19:15:53 <Darkvater> ah; dir-listing.exclude
19:16:08 <Wolf01> I don't know if I made a mistake... I think I selected 0.6.3 for the alpine scenario with freeform map edges
19:16:28 * Wolf01 browses the content manager
19:16:39 <Yexo> Wolf01: you can still change that
19:16:43 <Darkvater> stupid windows receratesdfsed thumbs.db :s
19:16:43 <Ammler> Wolf01: there is only one realy usable license on that list or 2, if you count the versions
19:17:33 <Wolf01> I think CC-BY-NC-SA for scenarios is the best
19:20:03 <Wolf01> scenarios are like pictures, like heightmaps are, so I think it is better the CC, as you don't need to provide the source code because there isn't source code, it is modifiable by the ingame editor, like a music or a photo
19:20:31 <db48x> yea, the GPL is a little odd for some kinds of information
19:20:48 <db48x> it's rather specific to computer programs
19:22:43 <Wolf01> ok, minimal version: nightly, i need to put rxxxx on the textbox or it does already assume the head revision?
19:24:35 <Yexo> you need to put some version there
19:24:49 <Yexo> I think without the r prefix
19:26:46 <Wolf01> I don't remember the exact rev of introduction for freeform map edges... I think I'll put something like 15000
19:27:17 <Wolf01> wow... we already passed 15000, we are near 20000 (let's do another party) :D
19:27:32 <petern> what version did you use to make the scenario?
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19:28:03 <Wolf01> eh, do you think I can remember that? I update at least twice a week
19:28:24 <Yexo> but if you used a later version to create your scenario you need to fill in that value
19:29:02 <Wolf01> uhm... we should write the version on the scenario/savegame
19:29:49 <Wolf01> for sure I did the latest modification on 2008-01-24
19:30:42 <Yexo> Wolf01: swamp reloaded was saved with r14172
19:30:55 <Aali> is hg.openttd.org known to be broken/down?
19:31:04 <Yexo> alphine reloaded with r15209
19:31:35 <Aali> I get connection timed out for all my repos :/
19:31:35 <Wolf01> how do you found that?
19:31:52 <Yexo> open the scenario and execute 'gamelog' in the console
19:35:03 <Wolf01> the rss feed doesn't work, luckily there is CIA around
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19:37:11 <Wolf01> db48x, I read about your patch on the forum, what do it does with the ctrl key?
19:38:34 <db48x> I want to be able to use terraforming commands without having to separately bulldoze everything that's in the way
19:39:18 <db48x> so if I need to raise some land, rather than first deleting the track, raising it, finding out that I didn't delete enough, deleting more track and then raising it again
19:39:34 <db48x> I would prefer that raising the land be able to do the necessary bulldozing automatically
19:39:45 <db48x> subject, of course, to the normal rules for bulldozing
19:39:54 <db48x> can't bulldoze industries, track with trains on it, etc
19:40:07 <db48x> but yes, it could be a risky thing to do
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19:40:29 <db48x> so the patch that I've posted modifies the terraforming code so that it highlights all the squares where something is in the way, rather than just the first one
19:40:39 <Wolf01> think about raising a tile in the middle of a junction
19:40:49 <db48x> that way you can see exactly what will have to go before you actually do the tf
19:41:12 <db48x> if you subsequently do the tf with control (or whatever) held down, it goes ahead and bulldozes as needed
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19:44:16 <petern> you could've moved the error box first :D
19:44:25 <Wolf01> I think that's enough, I don't feel useful the other piece you want, but it's your patch so go ahead (but I suggest you to keep the two pieces separate)
19:45:14 <db48x> yea, planetmaker also suggested keeping the two halves separate
19:46:20 <Wolf01> the red popup which is under the chat messages
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19:48:38 * Belugas yawns and watches the clock go ont tick after the other
19:58:51 <Yexo> I like the sign in that screenshot: "Fixed desyncs /Bennythen00b"
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19:59:48 <Aali> because you think they are the gamestate kind of desyncs?
20:00:17 <Yexo> that was indeed the first thing I thought of when reading it
20:01:12 <Aali> would be nice if you could fix those by rearranging some track :P
20:02:34 <db48x> that would be pretty cool
20:03:12 <Aali> I guess sometimes you can fix them by doing just that, atleast temporarily ;)
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20:41:49 <planetmaker> I also wonder when those links show up - most other strings don't have that "feature" - even though I last changed them.
20:45:39 <planetmaker> oh... well, the image is a screenshot from translator2.openttd.org :)
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20:46:29 <petern> so that's what it looks like :p
20:47:48 <Rubidium> planetmaker: see it as a misfeature ;)
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20:55:51 <Ungl`ch`chlchlwr`> hey is there a way for any kind of team play in 0.6.3 openTTD?
20:56:21 <frosch123> sure, you can join the same company
20:56:48 <Ungl`ch`chlchlwr`> but then you spend the same cash,right?
20:57:09 *** JapaMala is now known as |Japa|
20:57:44 <Ungl`ch`chlchlwr`> oh well,tnx anyway
20:58:01 <Belugas> Ungl`ch`chlchlwr`, or you simply make it so that two companies are leagued togueter
20:58:09 <Belugas> but you wont share the tracks nor the cash
20:58:19 <Ungl`ch`chlchlwr`> hmmm?tell me more :D
20:58:42 <Belugas> well... tell a buddy... "hey man, want to work with me?"
20:58:48 <frosch123> maybe you are looking for "infrastructure sharing", but that is not part of 0.6.3 nor any other offical version
20:58:57 <Belugas> if so, you're in business :)
21:05:40 <planetmaker> Rubidium: ok, thx
21:06:41 <Rubidium> I kinda broke the history feature a while back, though it fixed some outrageous memory wastage
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21:07:07 <Rubidium> and now only new strings get history again
21:08:16 <planetmaker> Strings introduced new since then?
21:09:43 <planetmaker> I just wondered - it's interesting to see the history, but definitely nothing necessary
21:10:19 <planetmaker> but then: the history doesn't work, at least the windows opened have xml(?) error. Need to check for the exact error again
21:13:13 <planetmaker> that's what the pop-up windows contain.
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21:17:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15666 /trunk/src/ (build_vehicle_gui.cpp engine_func.h engine_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#2689]: sorting of engines in the purchase list didn't use the same numbers as the GUI showed, e.g. articulated parts weren't taken into accound when ordering by capacity.
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21:33:39 <[wito]> I think there's something wrong with Terragen when using freeform edges
21:33:45 <[wito]> all the maps have bad Chi
21:33:56 <[wito]> They don't jive with my Feng-Shui
21:34:01 <[wito]> Anyone else have this problem?
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21:34:47 <Yexo> [wito]: sorry, but I have no idea what you just said
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21:35:23 <[wito]> Yexo: it's an ineffable feeling of 'uglyness', if you will
21:35:32 <[wito]> it's a bit hard to explain. :P
21:35:48 <Yexo> it's an ineffable feeling of 'uglyness' <- I can understand that at least :)
21:35:58 <planetmaker> then make it nice and present your idea on how to fix it :P
21:36:44 <[wito]> terragen is a fractal terrain generator, ya?
21:37:42 <Yexo> no, it makes use of perlin noise
21:44:39 <Aali> and now you want the new and ugly one?
21:45:00 <taisteluorava> that is not my screenshot
21:45:09 <taisteluorava> i like toolbar like in that picture
21:46:32 <Yexo> taisteluorava: find out what newgrf was in use at the time the screenshot was taken, and download it
21:48:03 <[wito]> Is it possible to reach a station rating of 100%?
21:50:33 <energetic> now try transporting 100% of an industr ;)
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21:55:25 <db48x> taisteluorava: it's a replacement graphic
21:55:31 <db48x> taisteluorava: see the wiki
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21:57:11 <db48x> Yexo: Perlin noise is a kind of fractal
21:57:42 <db48x> it's just not very pretty, like a mandelbrot set
21:58:12 <Yexo> db48x: I wasn't aware of that, thanks for explaining
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21:59:59 <db48x> it's also random, rather than merely chaotic
22:00:43 <glx> taisteluorava: looks like 32bpp
22:02:47 <db48x> yea, I'm using some of the 32bpp replacement graphics
22:03:52 <[wito]> db48x: it also seems to have bad Chi
22:05:06 <db48x> random numbers rarely come up in a nice orderly way
22:05:23 <db48x> you need a sort of un-Chi
22:05:35 <db48x> a Chi of unorderly things
22:05:47 <db48x> a sort of Mu for the spatial arrangement of objects
22:06:29 <db48x> perhaps that's what the western approach already is?
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22:06:47 <[wito]> That would be one hell of a patch, tho'
22:08:33 <db48x> I think that there's a lot of room for improvement in both map generators
22:08:44 <db48x> merely using perlin noise doesn't always result in good maps
22:08:56 <db48x> they have a tendency to be very bland
22:14:40 <athanasios> wikipedia mentions wavelet noise. Can that be of any benefit?
22:18:24 <db48x> wavelet noise was designed to counter a limitation that you see when you use 3d perlin noise to create a 2d texture that gets wrapped around a 3d surface
22:18:37 <db48x> we're just using 2d perlin noise to create a hieght map
22:19:14 <athanasios> any other alternative?
22:21:49 <db48x> the solution to the perlin-noise blandness problem is simply to not do the same thing every time
22:22:16 <db48x> choose the octaves that you include in a more random fashion
22:22:31 <db48x> so rather than always using N octaves of noise, sometimes leave out an octave in the middle
22:22:41 <db48x> that or add an extra octave out past the end
22:22:49 <db48x> that gives the maps a different character
22:26:04 <planetmaker> [23:06] <[wito]> That would be one hell of a patch, tho' <-- it would be easy in that sense, that it is "just" a 3rd replacement for the terrain generator. E.g. you don't have too many interconnection, especially modification, of existing code.
22:27:01 <athanasios> does it worth the effort?
22:27:52 <db48x> yea, any patch that adds more variety to the maps seems like it would be worth the effort
22:28:04 <[wito]> planetmaker: well, actually the patch itself isn't such a biggie
22:28:25 <[wito]> but writing a terrain generator that (reliably) produces maps with good Chi
22:28:32 <[wito]> There you have a CHALLENGE!
22:28:46 <planetmaker> I have sufficient. Thank you :P
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22:32:15 <athanasios> Actually the problem with current generator is in the larger maps. It will be an issue if extra large maps hit trunk. But I suppose this will not be soon.
22:32:46 <db48x> perhaps larger maps need an extra octave or so of low-frequency noise
22:33:28 <Yexo> athanasios: as has been said before: nobody has shown full 2048x2048 savegame, so why allow even bigger maps?
22:34:08 <athanasios> that is why I said that it will not be soon...
22:34:20 <athanasios> I do not need bigger maps either.
22:35:19 <planetmaker> lool @ Rubidium :)
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22:47:33 <db48x> Rubidium: hey, got a minute to take a look at another patch of mine?
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23:02:10 <DASPRiD> planetmaker, warum wedelt der hund mit dem schwanz? -- weil der hund schlauer ist, als der schwanz. wäre der schwanz schlauer als der hund, würder er mit dem hund wedeln.
23:11:39 <sailo> hey, I just discovered something new: I cannot build a bus station in a town, it says the street is local property of the community or something like that. What is that?
23:12:05 <sailo> (german: straße ist in kommunaler trägerschaft)
23:17:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15667 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r15601)[FS#2718]: It was possible to remove rail tunnels/bridges and aqueducts build by rival companies.
23:18:23 <Yexo> sailo: go to Advanced Settings->Stations and enable "Allow drive-through road stops on town owned roads"
23:23:34 <sailo> ah okay. it is disabled from the server. thanks.
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23:54:23 <haclet> I have a problem with compilation OpenTTD
23:54:36 <Yexo> haclet: what OS/compiler are you using?
23:55:07 <haclet> I am supprise because I didn't have that problem before (since more then one year) am successfully compiled it on Suse/10.2 (linux) g++
23:55:34 <haclet> These are following errors:
23:55:43 <haclet> openttd/src/console_cmds.cpp: In function ‘bool ConLoad(byte, char**)’:
23:55:45 <Yexo> and what is the error message you get? (please post to paste.openttd.org if it's long)
23:55:50 <haclet> openttd/src/console_cmds.cpp:252: error: ‘_switch_mode’ was not declared in this scope
23:56:27 <Rubidium> sounds like makedepend not doing it's job
23:56:35 <haclet> I know that is something missing, the question what :)
23:56:36 <Yexo> haclet: try make clean && make
23:58:44 <haclet> Nope - the same on console_cmds.cpp
23:59:27 <haclet> I noticed that a few days ago. I regullary run svnupdate - and always was OK.
23:59:31 <Yexo> what version are you trying to compile?
23:59:38 <haclet> the last from subversion
continue to next day ⏵
