IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2009-03-05
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00:00:19 <Aali> who keeps important files in the source repo?
00:01:19 <Aali> ..that aren't related to the source :P
00:04:44 <Brokkoli> will svn up automaticly delete modified files?
00:05:15 <Brokkoli> i thougt it wouldn't
00:06:55 <Aali> the problem is that svn doesn't care about _unversioned_ files when it removes a versioned directory
00:07:28 <Aali> so, if you keep some scenarios in the bin/ dir and svn up, poof, they're gone
00:07:44 <Yexo> Aali: I tested it, and it didn't remove some unversioned files for me
00:08:11 <Rubidium> it's "just" that many people got kinda pissed because they 'lost' files when we merged makefile rewrite and c++, which also (re)moved files in massive quantities
00:08:28 <Aali> I don't use svn for openttd
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00:20:32 <Ammler> can't remember, it was that way
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03:39:04 <Cutter> my boats get 9000 $ for transfering 100 passengers, but the buses get only about 30 $ for delivering the same passengers to destination
03:39:36 <Cutter> I know it's a long trip but well
03:40:01 <Cutter> what's the point of a ferry if the passengers can't stand the distance
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04:20:01 <De_Ghosty> ottd is relaly extortion
04:20:17 <De_Ghosty> and then u move em a thousand miles
04:20:22 <De_Ghosty> and they have to pay u :o
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04:25:29 <Cutter> I've seen buses lose money upon delivery
04:25:58 <Cutter> like if there was some kind of hold-up inside the bus or something
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06:48:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <Cutter> my boats get 9000 $ for transfering 100 passengers, but the buses get only about 30 $ for delivering the same passengers to destination <- means you get 9000
06:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> where is the problem?
06:49:19 <narc> Even if you get -30 on bus delivery, you still got $8970 for the whole trip.
06:49:44 <narc> Some people don't understand this =/
06:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: show the last leg of a transfer also as transfer credit, combined with a total "income" amount, which is the money you really get
06:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> in that case, it would show "Transfer: -30, Income: 8970"
06:52:59 <narc> Since we're already tracking the total income over the lifetime of the cargo packet, it should all be available for display, in theory.
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09:28:53 <dihedral> # willst du nix spuel mit PRiDs
09:32:03 <DASPRiD> willst du dih, frag den PRi
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10:03:05 <dihedral> DASPRiD: it's pronounced differently!
10:04:58 <planetmaker> dihedral: you pronounce it differently. Not him :P
10:07:29 <dihedral> all germans make the same mistake ^^
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10:33:49 <petern> nice, ohloh supports mercurial now (as a beta)
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11:29:23 <planetmaker> does the local authority setting (permissive, tolerant, hostile) also affect the rate at which the rating is restored?
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11:45:49 <Ammler> openttd uses 1.6 GB on the ps
11:46:20 <Ammler> also the nightly server of dih uses a lot of ram.
11:46:20 <Rubidium> Ammler: and how did you figure that out?
11:46:55 <Ammler> oh, didn't want to tell that here, hat was what I liked to ask.
11:47:28 <petern> 5074 petern 20 0 3051m 18m 3632 S 0 0.5 276:08.85 openttd
11:47:32 <Ammler> it is just that we have crashes because of "out of memory"
11:47:50 <Ammler> never saw that before...
11:48:26 <Cybertinus> planetmaker: and what is the anwser to your question? I want to know that too ;)
11:48:35 <petern> 18MB resident, 3051MB virtual... boggle
11:48:50 <Ammler> and that virtual memory doesn't hurt?
11:49:03 <planetmaker> Cybertinus: no effect.
11:49:14 <Cybertinus> planetmaker: ok, htnx
11:49:24 <petern> $ free -m total used free shared buffers cached
11:49:24 <petern> Mem: 3995 3740 255 0 356 2954
11:50:06 <Ammler> same here, 1.6 is virtual
11:50:25 <Ammler> and 16m is resistent, if you call that so...
11:50:28 <petern> hasn't caused me a problem yet, but that is a little excessive...
11:51:10 <Ammler> it seems, that virutal server doesn't like it
11:51:39 <Ammler> the ps is on a root and didn't crash with odm
11:52:50 <Rubidium> virtual server == shared memory between all virtual servers -> when something in another virtual server uses too much memory it kills some (other) application using much memory
11:54:26 <Ammler> Rubidium: the silly thing is, you just need to restart openttd and it works again well
11:55:02 <Rubidium> well... how about the OOM wasting more memory and killing the real run-away waster?
11:55:23 <Rubidium> I've seen it happen many many times on our dedicated server
11:57:45 <Rubidium> real run away keeps wasting memory and then gets killed by the OOM killer
11:59:46 <petern> so where's out memory leak?
12:00:38 <Rubidium> that's the question; I've ran OpenTTD on fast forward for a whole night and it didn't leak (more than just starting OpenTTD and closing it)
12:01:15 <petern> that's not a network server. coincidence?
12:01:47 <Rubidium> might be, but Zahl reported something similar
12:02:20 <petern> my L4D server is only 192MB ;)
12:02:24 <Ammler> dih doesn't run his server with newgrfs
12:06:31 <Ammler> petern, do you know, how long your server is running?
12:06:47 <Ammler> our ps with 1.6 GB has does 17h now
12:07:09 <Ammler> if you start openttd, is uses around 80mb
12:07:42 <Ammler> petern: I assume, it only affects, if server is unpaused
12:10:52 <Rubidium> might it have something to do with malloc randomisation?
12:12:52 <Rubidium> or address space layout randomisation
12:15:52 <Ammler> If I watch it, I would say it happens while the month change
12:16:00 <Ammler> autosave or something...
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12:16:28 <Ammler> the memory is quite constant and jumps on the end of month
12:16:44 <Ammler> we use monthly save here
12:16:54 <petern> saved me when the power went out :)
12:17:11 <Ammler> monthly save with 255 saves ;-)
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12:18:14 <Ammler> we once needed 100 saves to restore sabotage...
12:26:19 <Rubidium> at least their 1.0 came before dbset's 1.0
12:29:30 <Forked> today it's all about the google way [Beta]
12:29:33 <Rubidium> people think OpenTTD is about 15 times worse than Simutrans just because we're only at 0.6 and they're are 0.100
12:31:51 <sexten> I've never heard of Simutrans until 1 minute ago, and ewww that looks ugly:/
12:32:22 <Ammler> do you distribute opengfx with the windows installer of 7beta?
12:33:32 <Ammler> I installed it yeterday for the comic.pak but already deleted again.
12:33:54 <Rubidium> no... and it certainly won't be added until it's finished; I dislike all those OpenTTD is broken because of the black boxes" which undoubtedly is going to happen a lot
12:34:18 <Ammler> hmm, was just wondering about someone complained about the black boxes after he installed it.
12:35:14 <Ammler> then he needed to activate it accidentially?
12:35:52 <Ammler> or does that happen automatically after you donwload it?
12:36:17 <petern> if you download it it takes priority if you haven't specificially set the base graphics set
12:36:22 <petern> so when you restart it'll get chosen
12:36:40 <Ammler> most people just downlad all
12:39:08 <Rubidium> which is the reason there's no "select all" button
12:39:51 <Rubidium> only when selecting specific content, i.e. when opening it with missing newgrfs
12:40:49 <dihedral> Ammler, dont you dig into my vps issues like that - it's not an openttd issue
12:41:08 <dihedral> yes the vps runs out of mem but it's not inside the vps
12:41:34 <dihedral> dont you _ever_ ask someone with op rights in that channel to quit my server again!
12:41:55 <dihedral> you know of enough ways to contact me
12:42:12 <dihedral> i hope that is clear!
12:43:30 <Ammler> omg are you a stupid quy.
12:46:09 <Forked> I can't decide if I want to get popcorn or not for this. (ignore me btw)
12:46:53 <Rubidium> then decide on whether you can or can't decide
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12:52:04 <petern> that's not exactly ammler's fault
12:52:31 <petern> i should take people off ignore :p
12:53:19 <Rubidium> petern: nah, just guess who might've said something (stupid)
12:55:59 <dihedral> petern, i kind of dislike it when people try to solve an issue on a server, and instead of getting in touch with me, decide to tell someone that i am find with them mucking around
12:56:05 <petern> i rather guess the other way
12:56:31 <dihedral> i prefer being contacted if something does not work on my vps
12:56:33 <petern> it's not ammler's fault if the people you trust are stupid
12:56:54 <dihedral> well they know now ;-)
12:59:20 <petern> Fetched 60.2MB in 7s (8224kB/s)
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13:00:06 <petern> only a 100mbit network card, iirc
13:00:06 <Forked> my NIC is the slowest thing here
13:00:11 <petern> only a 100mbit network connection
13:01:08 <Forked> several gigabits of internet uplink!1one
13:01:17 <Forked> and they wont let me place even a 1U server anywhere :\
13:01:43 <petern> we only have 100mbit connections
13:02:13 <Forked> 100Mbit LAN.. lots of gigabits of internet.. like any ISP should have
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13:37:21 <Timitry> found a bug in pbs-pathfinding, i think
13:37:36 <planetmaker> Many thought that :)
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13:41:53 <Timitry> As soon as the first train completely passes the crossing tracks there, the train on the upper right makes a reservation...
13:42:51 <Timitry> Worth a FS-entry? Or did i miss something? :)
13:42:58 <Timitry> I know it's an ugly construction...
13:45:01 <planetmaker> Timitry: I see two signals and three trains. Something has to crash...
13:45:22 <Timitry> Yes, but why did the train on the upper right not stay at the signal before the bridge
13:46:06 <planetmaker> so there's a signal upper right out of the image which wasn't forced through?
13:46:20 <Timitry> second, i'm making a better picture
13:47:06 <Timitry> The train first waited at the signal before the bridge
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13:47:21 <Timitry> And when the middle train completely passed the crossing tracks, it made a reservation and started moving
13:48:11 <planetmaker> Timitry: I don't understand how it happs. I guess make a FS entry with a save before the 3rd train starts
13:50:50 <petern> don't say "where the screen is centered"
13:51:07 <petern> because it's dependent on screen resolution
13:52:32 <planetmaker> [13:52] <petern> that's not exactly ammler's fault
13:52:34 <planetmaker> [13:56] <petern> i rather guess the other way
13:52:51 <petern> planetmaker: different conversations
13:54:04 <Timitry> Okay, but it will happen in the window if you don't move it :)
13:57:33 <Timitry> And another question / general wondering: In this picture: http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7910/whynot.png - Why would the train at the left bottom not reserve a path to the middle and then wait in that loop? It would be a safe waiting position, and the other train could still pass it...
13:58:52 * dihedral dislikes those signal images...
14:00:43 <Timitry> Hehe... If i make the short track in the middle (the upper left one) a bit longer, it works...
14:01:30 <planetmaker> Timitry: how long is your train in tiles?
14:04:41 <Ammler> memory again at 250MB (after 1.4h)
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14:06:03 <Ammler> seems like it grows constantly with time.
14:06:15 <Timitry_> Anything i missed after writing "Hehe... asdadsasdasd"
14:06:45 <dihedral> or read through thegrebs.com
14:07:51 <planetmaker> [15:01] <planetmaker> Timitry: how long is your train in tiles?
14:08:09 <Cybertinus> I have disabled "transparent buildings"
14:08:15 <Timitry_> Oh, thanks for the link
14:08:19 <Cybertinus> but all my stations and depots are transparent
14:08:20 <Timitry_> The trains are all 5 tiles long
14:08:27 <Cybertinus> but the buildings arn't
14:08:46 <dihedral> Cybertinus, press ctrl+x
14:08:57 <planetmaker> Cybertinus: Ctrl+x
14:09:05 <dihedral> i beat you too it :-P
14:09:08 <Cybertinus> for some reason I was building a sing
14:09:32 <Cybertinus> and I was changing the text
14:09:54 <Cybertinus> that explains why it didn't respont to pressing x, but responded somewhat to changing the setting with the mouse :p
14:10:13 <Cybertinus> what does ctrl+x do
14:11:38 <dihedral> Cybertinus, do it and find out!
14:12:07 <dihedral> it opens the transparency options window
14:12:13 <Cybertinus> transparency options
14:12:17 <Cybertinus> didn't know they existed :D
14:12:25 <dihedral> you can define what level of transparency is used when you press x
14:12:39 <dihedral> play around with it a bit ;-)
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14:13:37 <Cybertinus> but it doesn't remember it :(
14:13:50 <Cybertinus> I disable a few of them
14:13:59 <Cybertinus> and the are all enabled again
14:18:51 <Ammler> (ctrl-click on the icon, iirc)
14:19:14 <dihedral> is there not a button below each icon?
14:20:07 <Cybertinus> ctrl-click works perfectly
14:20:36 <Cybertinus> that everything was transparent was one of the little downsides of (o)TTD
14:20:40 <Cybertinus> that is solved now :)
14:22:43 <Cybertinus> now I don't have to see trees ever again :)
14:30:01 <Belugas> mmh... i'd turn off that feature while walking outside, if i were you...
14:30:19 <Forked> no no .. just film him walk into a tree
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14:56:24 <Belugas> good bot... very good bot!
14:59:16 <dihedral> does the bot trim the string? :-P
14:59:27 <dihedral> or is it still petern's script?
14:59:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's glx's script
15:03:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <Timitry> And another question / general wondering: In this picture: http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7910/whynot.png - Why would the train at the left bottom not reserve a path to the middle and then wait in that loop? It would be a safe waiting position, and the other train could still pass it... <- the pathfinder thinks the reserved path is shorter than the detour, you need to increase pbs_cross_penalty to make the train consider
15:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> longer detours (might cause sideeffects elsewhere)
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16:15:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r15619 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_rail.cpp: -Fix [FS#2701]: When trying to reserve a self-crossing path the failed reservation was sometimes not cleared completely.
16:23:04 <Firzen> Is it possible to load a savegame with a dedicated server?
16:23:57 <frosch123> type "openttd -h" and watch out for an option to load a savegame
16:24:09 <Brokkoli> or in the server console
16:24:51 <Firzen> Ok, I'll try it ^^ Will this work if the server has other settings than the savegame?
16:25:27 <Brokkoli> some settings are loaded from the savegame
16:25:44 <Brokkoli> but you need the newgrfs
16:26:34 <Firzen> What about patches and autosave interval?
16:28:20 <frosch123> autosave is not stored in the savegame
16:28:34 <Brokkoli> but some patch options are
16:28:45 <Ammler> Firzen: use 0.7beta or nightlies and you don't have any patch options anymore ;-)
16:28:58 <Brokkoli> extended options *g*
16:29:59 <Ammler> those adv. settings important for the game are saved in the game, those important for the server in the cfg.
16:36:25 <Firzen> So it's 'rcon PW "load save/autosave/autosave1.sav"', isn't it?
16:37:41 <Brokkoli> i think it's without "save/"
16:39:11 <Brokkoli> try a 'rcon PW list'
16:40:26 <Firzen> 0) .. (Parent) || 1) autosave/ (Directory)
16:41:25 <Firzen> So autosave/autosave1.sav should work <.<
16:43:46 <Firzen> The problem was the .sav
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17:21:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r15620 /trunk/src/map_func.h: -Fix[FS#2699]: Error in documentation (Conditional Zenith).
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17:38:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15621 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Feature: When cloning a vehicle with a custom name, add and/or increment a number at the end of name and assign it to the new vehicle (for emma)
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17:46:34 <Yexo> petern: any reason for not using IsUniqueVehicleName ?
17:47:00 <Yexo> vehicles names are currently globally unique, not only per company
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17:49:52 <Yexo> and it doesn't increate the number with a train named "mytrain (3)", but that's by design I guess
17:51:26 <petern> can't catch everything :/
17:51:46 <petern> you should at least get "mytrain (3) 2"
17:52:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15622 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: Duplication.
17:52:53 <Yexo> and that's ok, updating "(3)" gives more problems with the conversion from 9 to 10
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19:41:19 <Timitry> Are tasks in FlySpray always deleted after they are solved / included?
19:41:40 <Timitry> But tahnks to michi_cc for fixing that PBS-issue!
19:41:50 <Timitry> Will try if it works tomorrow :)
19:43:21 <Timitry> just found that by the irc logs...
19:43:49 <SmatZ> you can show all tasks when you use that +Advanced button ;)
19:43:51 <Timitry> ah, now i found it over the flyspray-search...
19:46:03 <planetmaker> Timitry: or bugs.openttd.org/fs2701 should also work - if you know the number
19:50:11 <Ammler> or just use advanced search and look for your Task...
19:51:40 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Temporary Offline
19:51:59 <Yexo> dunno why it doesn't work, but that is the correct command :p
19:57:35 <SmatZ> frosch123 knows the magic character :)
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19:57:49 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: I have not seen qozumeryj.
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20:41:37 <likufanele> hello... I haven't been playing ottd for a while but didn't the mouse pointer moved along when panning around...?
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20:46:21 <frosch123> there are a lot of different scrolling mechanisms
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20:46:40 <frosch123> you can inverse the scroll direction when right-click-scrolling
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20:46:49 <frosch123> you can scroll by left-clicking on free tiles
20:47:01 <frosch123> you can scroll by moving the mouse near the edge of the window
20:47:10 <frosch123> take a look at advanced settings :)
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20:49:54 <likufanele> hmm... how about the original ttd...?
20:51:37 <likufanele> hmm... I'm suddenly thrown off by the lack of mouse pointer movement when panning... :/
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20:53:53 <likufanele> this is so weird... :/
20:53:55 <frosch123> hmm, the fan of my graphicscard is driven by a two-stroke engine :/
20:55:08 <frosch123> about two weeks ago it started to become louder, now the noise changes every 5 minutes to something other strange
20:55:20 <frosch123> vacuum cleaning did not help :(
21:00:20 <likufanele> oh... I know why... it's probably because of my extensive use of Google Earth...
21:04:58 <Belugas> mouse moving while panning?
21:05:07 <Belugas> me brain cannot visualise
21:05:08 <planetmaker> meh... :( Better change now... frosch123 :)
21:05:32 <planetmaker> Or the stork will get it :P
21:07:22 <frosch123> it is still running :)
21:08:24 <planetmaker> We had a wonderful SGI. But it was as loud as a industrial grade vacuum cleaner. Noone wanted to use it...
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21:09:23 <planetmaker> ... don't spoil your computer fun, frosch123 :)
21:10:14 <frosch123> the fan is not comparable with a blade of a turbo-pump that runs with 15000 U/s in vacuum and that passes through walls if broken
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21:12:03 <planetmaker> and they really become loud after some time, if you sand-ray them from the inside :P
21:12:39 <petern> # sand-raaaaay, sand-ray! duh-duh duh duh duh duh
21:14:20 <planetmaker> hey, that's even patented ;)
21:14:51 <planetmaker> but only in Germany :P
21:15:02 <frosch123> what? destroying a turbo-pump with a sand-ray?
21:17:12 <planetmaker> Though the use is to des-agglomerate micron particles
21:17:35 <planetmaker> but if particles = silica it amounts to sand-raying the turbo-pump
21:19:52 <frosch123> hmm, wikipedia says I was factor 10 wrong, they only run at 1500 U/s
21:21:51 <planetmaker> I guess wiki is wrong
21:22:09 <planetmaker> 15k U/min sounded about right
21:22:17 <glx> until it's quoted in a newspaper ;)
21:22:39 <frosch123> 15k per minute is far to less :)
21:23:07 <petern> you and your germanisms
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22:14:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15623 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix (r15615): close the files you've opened
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22:31:04 <Nite_Owl> petern: On behalf of all the compulsive, insane re-namers who play this game Thank You for r15621
22:33:08 <Nite_Owl> I thanked you and all of the other developers on the forums also just to reach a larger crowd
22:35:26 <Nite_Owl> ok - I will not use it <has his fingers crossed behind his back>
22:36:19 <Nite_Owl> out of curiosity - who is emma?
22:43:27 <Nite_Owl> who renames everything
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22:55:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r15624 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r15621): warning about comparing signed and unsigned integer types
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23:23:48 <[wito]> like the ones generated by AutoSlopes, ya?
23:24:26 <[wito]> except in a user-controllable context
23:25:06 <Prof_Frink> Nah, they're chalk.
23:25:56 <[wito]> what would be more intimidating than the company HQ on top of a 500 m tall pillar?
23:26:13 <Sacro> the 500m tall pillar on top of the HQ
23:26:21 <racetrack> [wito]: company hq on top of a 500m tall volcano
23:27:13 <[wito]> Or how about a town perched on a precarious coastline cliff?
23:27:48 <[wito]> or on top of a pillar, yeah
23:28:09 <Prof_Frink> Cliffs should attract tourists.
23:28:10 <[wito]> or an even just slightly accurate Grand Canyon 2048*2048 scenario?
23:28:42 <Rubidium> [wito]: and how do you look 'behind' those cliffs?
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23:29:09 <[wito]> Rubidium: waddayamean behind?
23:31:22 <glx> just imagine a road in the canyon, how can you see it?
23:32:17 * glx waits for rotate view suggestion ;)
23:32:52 <[wito]> yeah, when is that coming? :P
23:33:10 <[wito]> if the canyon is sufficiently deep and narrow, tho', that won't fix it
23:33:28 <glx> it's not doable as you'll need to redraw many sprites
23:34:33 <[wito]> and there is no spoon. :P
23:34:35 <Prof_Frink> Even transparentier mode?
23:35:00 <[wito]> Prof_Frink: given that we now have invisible, that would have to be transparentierier
23:35:09 <SmatZ> [wito]: like, multitile buildings - town houses, industries, HQ, ...
23:36:20 <[wito]> Top-down view was a joke. :P
23:36:44 <Rubidium> how to look under a bridge in top-down view? ;)
23:37:03 <wollollo> would it be possible to make all ground tiles above a certain height invisible?
23:37:16 <[wito]> but isn't building bases textures on a plane?
23:37:29 <wollollo> so you could "peel" the landscape down to where you wanted?
23:38:04 <Rubidium> wollollo: depends on what invisible means; if you mean don't draw them that'll work
23:38:07 <[wito]> If I understand the current mechanics of the surface, my next suggestion would be easier to implement:
23:38:53 <glx> where's the fun with that?
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23:39:23 <Yexo> [wito]: next suggestions: also build stations automatically, next suggestions: press a button and let the game play itself
23:39:36 <[wito]> glx: make it dumb as a box of hammers; and only enabled for non-multidirectional rail. :P
23:40:34 <SmatZ> [wito]: I think there is a patch like that at tt-forums (somewhere) ... at least I know I tried it :)
23:40:54 <Aali> [wito]: you can do that yourself with NoAI
23:43:47 <[wito]> "In conclusion, cliffs, while providing an interesting new dimension (heh) to the visual planning of a terrain, introduce several technical dilemmas that must be considered before formal design can commence."
23:46:13 <SmatZ> nicely said that "users won't see what they are building behind cliffs"
23:46:59 <[wito]> which isn't that much of a problem, if all cliffs point south. :P
23:47:45 <SmatZ> people would notice that and request them pointing to north too
23:49:03 <[wito]> oh, I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to build north-pointing cliffs
23:49:19 <[wito]> just that the map generator would avoid them (or cliffs alltogether)
23:54:17 <Prof_Frink> All good cliffs do point south.
23:54:33 <Prof_Frink> maximum sunshine, so you can climb all year
23:55:20 <SmatZ> fail when you are on the southern hemisfere
23:55:43 <Prof_Frink> Yeah, but antipodeans are silly anyway.
continue to next day ⏵
