IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-12-30
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02:01:51 <Wolle> I'm playing rcpp (r13691) with ecs - sombody knows how to transport petrol? ...petrol trains won't load...they wait and wait and wait and...
02:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> Wolle: custom builds are not supported here
02:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> there is a thread in the forum, maybe you can ask there
02:06:06 <Wolle> ahh Eddi|zuHause2 i'm not looking for support...just for a hint
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02:06:40 <Wolle> thread in the forum sounds good..but what i have to search for?
02:06:46 <glx> you need a train set that can transport petrol
02:07:51 <Wolle> i have a set that supports petrol... - i can refit it to it ...
02:08:11 <Wolle> but the trains won't load petrol...
02:10:55 <Wolle> ..i'm (almost) sure i've read all wikis and searched all forums but i couldn't find a solution
02:12:55 <Wolle> what do you mean whith "set"? i'm usin rcpp with ecs
02:13:21 <Wolle> dbsetxl with ecs extension
02:15:25 <Wolle> no the nightlies don't have the features i need more than petrol
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02:15:52 <glx> but you can check if you can transport petrol
02:17:24 <Wolle> that's right...you have one second? ...i'll getting the last nighly and set the options as in my game - could take 5 minutes...
02:18:54 <Wolle> in rcpp (r14239) transporting petrol won't work too, the trains stay at the stations for ages but won't load anything
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02:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolle: then it probably is a compatibility problem with dbxl-ecs and ecs
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02:55:03 <Wolle> Eddi|zuHause ...i'm playing a outdated version, in the latest build of rcpp the chemical plant won't produce petrol...i''ll update and add the missing feature to my "you have to implement list"...
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04:24:14 <George> Rubidium: rid of actions 2? May be we do not need GRFs at all? :) In this case I'd suggest to stop viewing desync reason in the point of view for callbacks realisation. I mean CB question should be done regardless desync question, why desync qestion should be viewed on its own.
05:05:40 <Eddi|zuHause> George: that statement was highly exaggerated
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11:58:37 <petern> bah, i can't get tortoise going with svn+ssh :/
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12:08:45 <dihedral> petern: istall winssh
12:08:52 <dihedral> iirc it's sshwindows.sf.net
12:09:13 <dihedral> that's ssh via cygwin
12:09:22 <dihedral> and tortoise should be able to use that
12:10:07 <petern> it's supposed to work with putty keys by itself
12:13:16 <Alberth> petern: If you don't mind using a free version of a commercial product, smartsvn is known to work (at my work many Win* users use it to access our svn repositories).
12:13:32 <petern> i just used anonymous access in the end :p
12:18:25 <Rubidium> petern: if Belugas can set it up, you should be able to too ;)
12:24:07 <petern> oh for the love of apt...
12:29:08 <petern> this dxsdk installer is really shit
12:29:31 <petern> how many times does it really need to unpack an archive... :o
12:31:53 <petern> gah, dxguid.lib missing :o
12:34:28 <dihedral> things can be so easy
12:36:29 <petern> turns out the mar 2008 sdk was already installed
12:36:40 <petern> so i downloaded and installed 460MB of aug 2007 sdk for no reason
12:36:59 <petern> just that the paths were set up in msvc
12:37:11 <petern> when i know they have been done automatically in the past
12:41:43 <yorick> is there any GetSignalDirectionFromTrack function?
12:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> any such function would most probably be found in rail_func.h
12:45:54 <yorick> and there is no rail_func.h
12:46:18 <Alberth> is there any value for such a function? (I can drive in any direction on any track as long as I don't pass a signal)
12:46:58 <yorick> there is if you want to draw/read
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12:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: sorry, track_func.h
12:49:46 <yorick> rather some _map.h file
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12:56:13 * petern ponders this acceleration thingy
12:56:50 <petern> mass (kg) * speed (mph) * coeff = resistance in N (but * 4 for some reason?)
13:01:39 <dihedral> petern, "and then a lot of magic occurs right here" :-P
13:02:25 <petern> s/magic/shit/, perhaps
13:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that is exactly the kind of problem that occurs when code quality is not checked properly and patches are included too early
13:05:08 <petern> dihedral, for instance, why is engine power involved in braking at all?
13:05:41 <dihedral> can one not break with the engine?
13:05:48 <dihedral> but i guess not on trains
13:05:53 <dihedral> works nicely in cars
13:06:06 <dihedral> going 100mph? put in the first gear see what happens :-D
13:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: they can, but mechanical brakes are independent from engine power
13:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> modern engines have regenerative brakes, for example
13:06:42 <dihedral> weight, speed, and break power?
13:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be "unbroken" (:p) axle
13:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. early freight wagons in UKRS
13:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> which is the entire reason for attaching a braking wagon
13:15:40 <Eddi|zuHause> may i propose a model for track inclination?
13:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> where / means a sloped track, and _ means a flat straight track
13:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. to have 1% incline you cannot have curves or switches in 3 tiles radius
13:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (it should then tell this inclination in the query window)
13:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or possibly the last track bit might be curved. so that a curve right before and after the slope would fall into the 3% case
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13:25:57 <petern> is that 2 * 1% slopes?
13:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't want to make the check too complicated
13:27:03 <Eddi|zuHause> with this version, you would check at most 6 additional tiles to determine the slope incline
13:36:16 <petern> and make the units make sense
13:37:29 <petern> and fix the air drag bug, i think
13:37:48 <petern> and resistance... assuming i'm reading this properly
13:38:27 <petern> damn it, msvc can apply code changes while running
13:40:04 <petern> i don't understand the conversion from km/h to mph
13:40:14 <petern> these equations are simpler with km/h
13:40:34 <petern> km/h to m/s being a simple * 3.6
13:41:20 <petern> oh yes, that's it, game units are not km/h
13:43:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i really thing that we should just define 1 mile == 1.6km throughout the entire game, and declare all internal units as being km
13:44:46 * Rubidium already assigns Eddi|zuHause to the bug reports that'll come from that change
13:45:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but apparently that "breaks" newgrf compatibility, as those expect units to be in miles/1.6, not km
13:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know this has been tried before :p
13:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> but i think that is one of the "overzealous realism" instances
13:46:08 <petern> internal units should be m/s
13:46:21 <petern> unfortunately that requires integer magic
13:56:35 <petern> sanitized it slight *and* with less maths...
14:07:05 <petern> of course, now the train is much slower..
14:11:42 <petern> which makes little sense, as air drag is much lower
14:12:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you broke the deep magic
14:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it is punishing you
14:12:57 <petern> i fail to see any conversion compensating for speed being in the wrong units twice
14:15:17 <petern> can somebody please explain resistance *= 4 [N]
14:15:20 <petern> and mass * 4 later on...
14:16:08 <petern> (i could try working that one out though)
14:19:58 <petern> according to MB it's simply mass * 3% * 10N
14:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the effect of slopes was way too low in the past
14:25:14 <Eddi|zuHause> as cool an engine the E94 (Crocodile) is, it should not be able to pull 2000t trains uphill
14:26:30 <yorick> edeca: I've been working on the gui somewhat, the code looks better now
14:26:32 <edeca> yorick: I think I've simplified the signal copying now to one FOR_EACH_BIT_SET, but I don't have my data files here to test it ;)
14:26:45 <edeca> yorick: It compiles, but I can play
14:26:57 <petern> force = min(force, mass * 10 * 200);
14:27:01 <edeca> yorick: Oh nice. Perhaps if we're both going to work on it we should decide on tasks :)
14:27:01 <petern> ^ and what is that for?
14:27:13 <edeca> petern: It keeps the flux capacitor oiled
14:27:31 <petern> i'm guessing it was to limit TE before max_TE was done
14:27:53 <edeca> yorick: What have you modified so far?
14:28:34 <yorick> fixed the signals, made the command queue have its own tick call, replaced some stuff by SB
14:32:33 <yorick> and I'm currently getting it to copy all signal types on a tile
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14:33:38 <yorick> yeah, it actually pastes pbs again :)
14:34:20 <yorick> the bad news: not enough bits to store semaphore type for both signals
14:35:52 <edeca> Well the save format needs an overhaul
14:36:05 <edeca> Perhaps we should make a wiki page and document the format
14:36:21 <edeca> Did you fix the signal copying? I've done that too
14:36:31 <edeca> And we could divide tasks on the wiki too ;)
14:38:45 <edeca> Compression should be easy for the files on disk, lzo is already used
14:39:19 <yorick> uint16 doesn't actually have bit 16, does it :/
14:40:27 <edeca> You need 1 extra bit for semaphore?
14:40:52 <yorick> dihedral: just put me on ignore then, thank you
14:41:04 <edeca> So anyway, have you modified the signal copying? Or do you want me to pastebin what I've done so you can try it
14:41:05 <dihedral> no - that would be making it too easy for you
14:41:16 <yorick> edeca: no, I actually need 1 extra bit for the signal type :(
14:41:18 <dihedral> just because you dont want me to comment on stupid stuff you say :-P
14:41:37 <edeca> dihedral: Do you have any cheese?
14:41:41 <dihedral> why dont you put _me_ on _your_ ignore list, if you dont like hearing what i say to your stuff?
14:42:03 <yorick> good one, thank you, done that
14:42:30 <dihedral> you are most welcome
14:42:54 <yorick> ah well then, goodbye semaphores :p
14:43:20 <edeca> What's wrong with the current solution that uses a bool for semaphore?
14:43:46 <dihedral> the funny thing is, yorick has the bad habit of reading the logs when someone is on his ignore list, because he feels i might be missing something
14:43:59 <dihedral> and the feeling of missing out, is something he really does not like
14:44:07 <yorick> that there isn't enough space to store both signal types
14:44:34 <edeca> So you *have* modified the copy code?
14:44:39 <edeca> Are we going to get to the bottom of that? ;)
14:44:43 <dihedral> and now he will not even dare commenting what i have said, even though he is reading the logs at thegrebs.com :-P
14:44:52 <dihedral> and pressing F5 every 3 seconds
14:44:58 <petern> tell me what resistance = 13 * mass / 10 is supposed to be
14:45:26 <petern> tell me what 60 * number of axles is supposed to be
14:46:17 <dihedral> 60 is the power of the break per axle?
14:46:27 <yorick> at least in such a way that breaks template compatibility twice
14:46:30 <petern> no, general resistance, friction, etc
14:46:56 <dihedral> and you wanna store to each wagon how many axles it has?
14:46:57 <petern> (except that number of axles is actually number of wagons)
14:47:10 <petern> no, that would be easy
14:47:14 <edeca> yorick: Well shall we make a plan of who will do what then? And some documentation for the format?
14:47:18 <petern> what is the 60, and what is the 1.3?
14:47:40 * petern ponders looking at the ancient floating point implementation
14:48:01 <dihedral> lbs or newton for the 60 (wild guess - i have honestly not the listest, atm)
14:48:34 <edeca> yorick: On the wiki? Or where?
14:48:41 <yorick> just on the wiki is fine
14:49:10 <dihedral> for the 1.3 ...... enlighten me? where'd you get it from?
14:50:37 <dihedral> actually it looks like having unbreaked wagons could turn out to be a huge amount of fun
14:51:01 <petern> dihedral: 13 * blah / 10 = blah * 1.3
14:51:29 <petern> celestar should know it all, he committed this realistic acceleration ;)
14:51:33 <glx> maybe 1.3 is steel on steel, but I can't find it
14:51:37 <dihedral> petern, yes - i am aware of that, thank you
14:52:02 <petern> i'm getting the 1.3 from the CODE
14:52:11 <dihedral> that's what i wanted to know
14:52:20 <Eddi|zuHause> once upon a time i had a Tafelwerk...
14:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> last time i know i had it was the physics/electronics practice course
14:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that was in the 3rd semester
14:54:23 <dihedral> anyway - have to catch a bus
14:54:48 <edeca> yorick: So what are you working on? Care to upload an svn diff so I can check it out?
14:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause> have a good hunt ;)
14:54:51 <petern> hehe, the old realistic acceleration had max_te...
14:55:13 <yorick> edeca: care if it's a hg diff?
14:55:26 <edeca> yorick: Well 'a diff' that I can apply to trunk
14:55:41 <petern> glx: rolling resistance for steel is listed as 0.0002 to 0.001
14:55:49 <petern> according to wikipedia
14:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> really, i think that function should be completely ripped out, and cleanly developed from the proper maths
14:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> not by dirty pseudo-optimisation hacks
14:56:06 <yorick> ooh, it shaved 20kb of the size already
14:56:11 <Eddi|zuHause> which are not even commented
14:56:32 <edeca> yorick: Well if you've compressed some of the copying, I'm not surprised
14:57:07 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, it is mostly proper maths, just the units are confused
14:57:33 <petern> int ad = area * drag_coeff * speed * speed;
14:57:39 <petern> ad /= 128099; // Conversion of speed ^ 2 from 1.6mph to m/s, and then /10000
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14:58:22 <edeca> yorick: Did you check the patch I had uploaded to the forums?
14:58:23 <petern> you'd need floats for doing it all in m/s, which we can't do
14:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't that risk overflow?
14:59:21 <petern> yes, for very high speed
14:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well, probably not... i don't think trains will get significantly close to speed of sound (~1000km/h)
14:59:44 <edeca> yorick: Well no. But we're duplicating effort quite obviously, which seems pointless. So we either need to decide who does what or I'll just let you get on with it until you get bored.
15:00:12 <petern> we can use int64 if we needed to
15:04:05 <edeca> yorick: Right, your copying code is a little cleaner than mine (but mine uses FOR_EACH_BIT_SET which Rubidium suggested)
15:04:13 <edeca> yorick: What would you like me to look at later? :)
15:05:11 <edeca> Compression for saved templates?
15:05:40 <yorick> and the templates might need some kind of versioning
15:05:47 <edeca> OK. Now don't go and randomly do it in the meantime!
15:06:46 <edeca> Yes, we do need versioning really. But until you finish fiddling, we should just stick with version 1 :P
15:07:40 <yorick> copying stations might need the distant join stations patch
15:08:05 <edeca> I'll look at how the game does it, but versioning should just be an integer in the template header, right?
15:08:20 <edeca> Which means it *needs* a header :)
15:09:01 <Rubidium> files should always use a header to identify it; just using the extension is usually not enough
15:09:24 <edeca> Oh I see, it modifies saveload.cpp for that
15:09:29 <edeca> Rubidium: That makes sense
15:09:40 <edeca> Meh well I was going to work on this patch but yorick is like a little terrier dog
15:10:02 <edeca> Which dampens my enthusiasm slightly :)
15:10:23 <Rubidium> he dampens *everybody's* enthusiasm
15:10:37 <edeca> Perhaps I'll cure cancer instead, or something else that's easy in the evenings.
15:12:05 <edeca> Well I hate things being duplicated. I don't have enough time in my life for that ;)
15:14:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14773 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp win32.cpp): -Fix-ish[FS#2469]: attach a signal handler during loading savegames to catch any crashes due to broken savegames/missing NewGRFs and tell the user about that instead of "just" crashing without explanation.
15:18:08 <edeca> Rubidium: How do the developers divide tasks for the core stuff?
15:20:13 <Rubidium> someone does the core stuff and the others fix whatever breaks for their compiler ;)
15:22:06 <edeca> yorick: We *really* need to avoid duplication :)
15:22:51 <edeca> I've never used hg, can't be hard though
15:22:54 <edeca> I can host if you need?
15:23:37 <edeca> I'll set that up tonight too then.
15:23:43 <edeca> How does it work with syncing to trunk?
15:23:55 <edeca> i.e. can you sync to trunk and keep local patches easil
15:24:15 <yorick> yes, you can just use diff
15:26:29 <edeca> I'll setup an hg server later
15:29:38 <Roujin> just got a weird server message...
15:30:12 <DorpsGek> yorick: Commit by rubidium :: r14771 trunk/src/network/network.cpp (2008-12-29 21:41:20 UTC)
15:30:13 <DorpsGek> yorick: -Fix (r14764): resolving of error types to error messages kinda failed :(
15:30:25 <Roujin> xyz has left the game(Not enough cash - requires GBP890)
15:30:38 <yorick> yeah, fixed by 14771, I believe
15:30:46 <Rubidium> yes... you have to pay to play OpenTTD ;)
15:31:13 <Rubidium> though only OpenTTD money is accepted
15:34:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14774 /trunk/src/terraform_gui.cpp: -Change: show which tile caused the "error" when leveling land like raising and lowering does and use the same sound.
15:35:35 <glx> indeed he have a connection problem
15:37:37 <yorick> mmm, signals could be stored more efficiently
15:38:16 <edeca> yorick: What do you suggest
15:38:38 <yorick> there can only be signals on the direction of the track
15:39:07 <yorick> then you just have to store if there are 0, 1 or 2 signals on a tile
15:41:05 <Roujin> what about diagonal tracks?
15:41:51 <Roujin> ah you mean that with 2 signals
15:42:03 <Roujin> thought you mean one sided/ two sided ones
15:42:31 <Roujin> ok, then how do you differ between the two possible locations for one signal?
15:43:55 <yorick> 10 = signal at left/top, 01 = signal at right/bottom, 00 = no signal, 11 = signals everywhere
15:44:21 <Roujin> and how is it stored currently?
15:44:35 <yorick> on the copy paste array
15:44:43 <yorick> 5 bits used for every trackbit
15:45:08 <yorick> I think it's already stored like that on the map array
15:46:15 <edeca> Well keeping the template simple is the best. lz will handle size surely?
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15:46:24 <edeca> Except for large memory usage :(
15:46:31 <edeca> I haven't looked at it yet
15:46:39 <glx> petern: look who arrived :)
15:46:49 * Celestar hides behind a barrell
15:48:23 <Rubidium> Celestar: you could better hide in a cubicle; then you can at least do some useful work ;)
15:48:40 <petern> heh, the old model also doubled airdrag in tunnels
15:49:16 <glx> petern: probably because train acts like a piston
15:49:19 <Celestar> I've been a tad busy with family life in the past few days.
15:49:21 <edeca> petern: Are you completely rewriting it?
15:49:32 <Celestar> that will change from Friday on :P
15:49:52 <yorick> you'll kill your family?
15:50:05 * Celestar pokes yorick with a blunt spoon
15:50:53 <Celestar> petern: what can I do for you? (=
15:51:13 <glx> search hard in your memory :)
15:52:16 <Celestar> Rubidium: look taken, bugs still there :P
15:52:22 <Celestar> Rubidium: more work required :P
15:53:00 <Celestar> I remember those numbers (=
15:53:25 <Celestar> Rubidium: I'll fix them after New Year's eve I guess
15:54:42 <darks> BUT who knows how to solve the non-latin input problem?
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15:55:16 <Rubidium> last thing you said was "i have a problem"
15:55:39 <Rubidium> I'd say: blame Bjarni for not implementing it ;)
15:56:14 <glx> works for me (win32 version) :)
15:56:16 <darks> god....the php IRC is very easy to disconnect
15:56:25 <Celestar> if (need_scapegoat) sql_call("SELECT nickname FROM users WHERE nickname = 'Bjarni'");
15:56:56 <Rubidium> Celestar: that's totally wrong
15:57:30 <darks> glx: you can type non-latin words just like chinese in OTTD?
15:57:57 <Rubidium> Celestar: SELECT person FROM persons AS p WHERE broken_thing IN (SELECT thing FROM things WHERE developed_by_id = p.id)
15:58:00 <darks> glx: without any change the src?
15:58:26 <glx> I just need to select the right keyboard layout
15:58:28 <Celestar> Rubidium: what about non-existing things?
15:58:35 <darks> glx: i have nothing to say about it...
15:58:43 <Rubidium> Celestar: is the OSX port non-existing?
15:58:59 <darks> glx: how to select the keyboard layout?
15:58:59 <Celestar> Rubidium: I think it is in a quantum state
15:59:29 <Rubidium> darks: the problem is that you use a different OS than glx uses. For glx' OS is works, for your OS nobody has been bothered to implement it
15:59:31 <glx> on windows I click on the little thing in taskbar
16:00:08 <Rubidium> and the major problem with your OS is that there are very few people that can implement stuff for it
16:00:43 <darks> Rubidium: is there anyone using linux and getting the same problem for me?
16:00:44 <Rubidium> the person who did make the OSX port has not been working on the port for many many months and he didn't have much time beyond fixing some bugs
16:00:49 <glx> or when something works then Apple decides to break it in next release
16:00:59 <Celestar> darks: I'm on linux. what's the problem?
16:01:28 <darks> Celestar: can you type non-latin words in the edit box
16:02:05 <darks> Celestar: when you edit the name of your company or the groups.
16:02:29 <Celestar> darks: I'll test in a few minutes.
16:02:40 <Rubidium> darks: doesn't matter whether it works in Linux, because Linux is not OSX
16:03:06 <Celestar> I've an OpenGL app running and AMD's driver doesn't manage to display an SDL window when an OpenGL window is running
16:03:18 <darks> glx: maybe. but if the linux users can work, OSX users may work too
16:03:21 <Rubidium> especially because OSX port doesn't use the same APIs to communicate with the OS as the Linux port does
16:04:14 <darks> Rubidium: no,it's very similar.
16:04:35 <glx> at least for all GUI related stuff
16:04:38 <Celestar> it's not _very_ similar
16:04:42 <Celestar> and the GUI is all different
16:05:32 <darks> I know the GUI is all different,but maybe on this game, it's similar.
16:05:59 <Celestar> the not the GUI, the GUI API.
16:06:20 <Rubidium> the backend talking to the OS for the OSX port is vastly different than the backend used for the Linux port which is vastly different than the backend used for the Windows port
16:06:57 <Rubidium> as the backend handles all the input and output the similarity of the backend determines whether it working in one of the backends means whether it works in another
16:07:41 <darks> in Linux, i use fcitx to type chinese. in OS, i use fcit to type chinese. fcit is just like a copy to OS. the auther said he did many copy from fcitx
16:11:05 *** evandar has joined #openttd
16:12:31 * darks trying to ./configure && make
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16:49:13 <Swallow> Powered wagons have 0 tractive effort. Is this intentional?
16:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> only when the newgrf says so
16:51:57 <Swallow> In the part of TrainPowerChanged that handles powered wagons, only power and no TE iis added
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17:04:40 <petern> F=ma, so a=F/m, right?
17:05:19 <petern> no wonder it's all shite :p
17:05:30 <Eddi|zuHause> then the factor is 1000 ;)
17:06:10 <petern> the resultant units don't mean anything anyway
17:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you should definitely put the units in the comment
17:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> as in: a = F/m; // m/s = kN / t
17:07:29 <petern> original acceleration model is
17:07:50 <petern> acceleration=hp/tons*4
17:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> err... but hp is not a force
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17:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> F = P/v ... or so
17:11:40 <petern> let's pretend the original acceleration model assumes velocity is always 1
17:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what the 4 is for ;)
17:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hp to kN is something like 3/4? [very roughly rounded]
17:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, starting in 2010, it is not allowed to use horse power anymore
17:21:09 <yorick> 1 horsepower = 745.699872 watts, according to google
17:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> british horses might be slightly more powerful than german ones ;)
17:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe those are american horses
17:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> "eine Pferdestärke entspricht 0,73549875 kW" <- says wikipedia
17:23:36 <yorick> mechanical horsepower is 745.... watts, metric horsepower is 735....
17:23:50 <yorick> and electrical horsepower is 746 W
17:24:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "1 PS ist in DIN 66036 (Deutsches Institut für Normung) definiert als die Leistung, die erbracht werden muss, um einen Körper der Masse m = 75 kg entgegen dem Schwerkraftfeld der Erde (bei Erdbeschleunigung 9,80665 m/s²) mit einer Geschwindigkeit von 1 m/s zu bewegen[4]."
17:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 PS = 75 kpm/s = 735,49875 W
17:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i do see how it could be called "metric" horsepower ;)
17:25:34 <yorick> well, not the generic hp
17:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "PS" is the german translation of "hp"
17:26:20 <petern> it's a little different
17:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the long definititon translates rougly to "transport 75km against earth gravity (9,81m/s^2) at 1m/s
17:28:27 <tokai> kilogramm not kilometer ;)
17:28:55 * tokai wonders why it is only 75 kg...
17:29:05 * tokai thought horses would be a bit heavier than that
17:29:19 <Eddi|zuHause> not the weight of the horse
17:29:21 <Prof_Frink> ...and how much power does an actual horse produce?
17:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> a horse dragging a 75kg object
17:29:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "Die Leistung eines Pferdes kann je nach Rasse, Trainingszustand oder augenblicklicher Anstrengung erheblich abweichen: ein Pferd etwa beim Galopp oder beim Springreiten kann kurzfristig deutlich mehr, nämlich über 20 PS leisten, während es im Tagesdurchschnitt etwa 1 PS leistet[3]."
17:31:00 <tokai> A horse dragging 75 kg makes not much sense when you can sit *on* the horse :) Getting dragged might actually hurt a little.
17:31:54 <Prof_Frink> tokai: Let me show you my new invention. I call it the "cart".
17:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> but sitting on the horse makes it difficult to measure against earth gravity
17:32:32 <tokai> Prof_Frink: but you and a cart might weight more than 75kg :)
17:33:02 * tokai at least weights around 75kg himself already.
17:33:04 <Prof_Frink> tokai: carbon fibre.
17:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 bhp ["brake horse power"] = 1,014 DIN-PS = 745,7 W
17:34:31 <Eddi|zuHause> = 33 000 lbf.·ft./min = 550 lbf.·ft./s
17:37:18 <petern> multiplied the acceleration by an arbitrary magic number
17:37:39 <petern> train does not get up to 20/30mph instantly
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17:52:37 <Swallow> It adds TE for powered wagons (2cc set for example)
18:02:01 *** Hirundo has joined #openttd
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18:29:17 <petern> working on realistic acceleration is pointless
18:32:21 <petern> rolling resistance is nothing
18:39:04 <Rubidium> but... but... then it's not "realistic acceleration" anymore
18:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to mention that earlier ;)
18:41:22 <Eddi|zuHause> air drag is the important part for high speed, tractive effort for low speed, and power for inclines
18:42:17 <petern> in our code, rolling resistance is high
18:42:48 <petern> problem is it is there but always rounds down to 0
18:43:01 <petern> i'm now experimenting changing subspeed to be 16 instead of 8 bits
18:45:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r14775 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-12-30 18:44:32
18:45:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 10 fixed, 2 changed by khaloofah (12)
18:45:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 14 fixed, 63 changed by tperic (77)
18:45:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 13 fixed by rindu (13)
18:45:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 2 fixed by zibiam (2)
18:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: romanian - 13 fixed by kkmic (13)
18:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> really, i'd just cut roll resistance
18:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> useless calculation work
18:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why they are using wheels, because it has practically no effect
18:59:00 <tokai> Would you actually be able to see the difference in the game if a train moves like 0.00002 pixel slower or faster? :)
19:00:42 <George> I had a new hardware instalation and was not logging the channel. Was there any result i discussion about house population CB?
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19:04:03 <petern> tokai, no, but if it calls itself realistic... ;)
19:04:18 <petern> Maybe I should do it as a new acceleration model
19:04:38 *** evandar has joined #openttd
19:04:44 <petern> Call it "DontLookBelugasItsRealisticAcceleration"
19:04:53 *** Nite_Owl has joined #openttd
19:07:15 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it should be a difficulty option "Acceleration Model: {simple, complex}"
19:07:31 <Swallow> Is train property 20 (coefficient of air drag) planned to be implemented at some point?
19:14:31 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, it's not more complex, it just behaves differently. people don't like change, see.
19:18:43 *** NukeBuster has joined #openttd
19:29:08 <petern> SmatZ, r14742 broke it
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19:37:32 <OsteHovel^EEE> How to i disable that old train engines dosent disapear after a period?
19:37:54 <OsteHovel^EEE> i want to play with all trains all the time...
19:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause> in the advanced/patch settings
19:39:31 <OsteHovel^EEE> (/me using the SVN)
19:39:34 <OsteHovel^EEE> so its advanced settings
19:39:49 <OsteHovel^EEE> where in the settings are the setting about that?
19:39:52 <OsteHovel^EEE> i cant find it....
19:39:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there's the options "vehicles never expire"
19:41:41 <Sacro> "Missing man's car is found by bridge"
19:43:13 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a german wrote that :p
19:43:29 <Sacro> they really should use "next to" rather than "by"
19:43:37 <Prof_Frink> When civ eng meets AI, we're all doomed.
19:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> german preposition "bei" means "next to"
19:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause> very common mistake of germans
19:44:40 <Sacro> germans often make mistakes...
19:45:01 <Prof_Frink> #1 being "Being German"
19:46:35 <Prof_Frink> "invading russia in the winter"
19:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the french are good at that, too ;)
19:47:17 <Sacro> "invading poland when others are watching"
19:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you british guys are useless as soon as you come out of the water... that's why you never even went close to russia
19:49:50 <Sacro> ah yes, there speaks an argie
19:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate the max loan... you can't start out with a double track line between two cities
19:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: they attacked us first, we only shot back... :p
19:50:45 <Prof_Frink> What? You started it!
19:51:35 <ccfreak2k> They say the same thing about Han/
19:53:47 <Eddi|zuHause> „Polen hat heute nacht zum erstenmal auf unserem eigenen Territorium auch mit bereits regulären Soldaten geschossen. Seit 5.45 Uhr wird jetzt zurückgeschossen! Und von jetzt ab wird Bombe mit Bombe vergolten![30]“
19:54:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Zitiert nach Adolf Hitler: Rede vor dem Reichstag, 1. September 1939;
19:55:01 <OsteHovel^EEE> I have played from 1920 to 2066 and i have had all the trains and now i have lost most of them... then with help of mr. Eddi|zuHause in here, i have activated the vichles dont expire.. but how do i get all the old vicles back?
19:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> OsteHovel^EEE: go to the console, and type "resetengines"
19:55:51 <OsteHovel^EEE> i done that now!!! And it worked!
19:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: if mister Hitler said it, it must be true!
19:56:03 <OsteHovel^EEE> What shoud i have dont widout you mr. Eddi|zuHause
19:57:13 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: Do you not know of Fawlty Towers?
19:57:50 <Prof_Frink> Don't mention the war!
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19:58:48 <OsteHovel^EEE> is it posible to exstract an GRF file and change that a train is a railway train and not monolev? (its a single train in a single grf)
19:59:04 <OsteHovel^EEE> or is that very hard todo?
19:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> OsteHovel^EEE: just get grfcodec
19:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> and read the grf specs about action0
19:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> then look for the vehicle ID in question
20:00:01 <Nicky-NL> i am reading an tutorial for making your own grf but the grfcodec does't wanna come up. it goes direct away, someone knows what i must do? :P
20:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Nicky-NL: grfcodec is a console application
20:00:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to start it from the command line with parameters
20:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> no, console applications do not "run", you start them, they immediately do something, and then end
20:02:29 <mincepie> Eddi|zuHause: he may be referring to the Windows start menu and the Run command
20:02:38 <OsteHovel^EEE> and then write CMD
20:02:44 <OsteHovel^EEE> then you get console
20:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, then start -> run -> cmd
20:03:11 <Nicky-NL> ok and then where it should take place?
20:03:13 <mincepie> Prof_Frink: that episode is interesting, according to Cleese, because it contains so little Germans and should really be called The Fire Drill
20:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i am totally out of the windows terminology... plus i have never used windows in english
20:03:28 <OsteHovel^EEE> i like linux much better....
20:03:40 <Nicky-NL> the tutorial says i must do this: grfcodec -e mytrain.grf
20:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Nicky-NL: when you are in cmd, you go to the directory where your grf files are
20:04:27 <Eddi|zuHause> cd C:\place\where\stuff\is
20:04:45 <Nicky-NL> ah i gonna try something :)
20:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so you are one level above the "sprites" directory
20:04:54 <Prof_Frink> Hmm, I think I ate too much over christmas. I'm hallucinating mince pies on irc.
20:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "dir sprites" should say something like:
20:05:25 * mincepie dances in confusing pattern around Prof_Frink
20:05:40 * Prof_Frink attempts to eat mincepie
20:05:43 <mincepie> Prof_Frink: don't worry, you're among only a very few here who even know what a mince pie is...
20:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> then type "grfcodec -e mygrf.grf"
20:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: i don't think i have ever seen that show
20:06:39 <mincepie> Eddi|zuHause: you've never seen Fawlty Towers?
20:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that is exactly what i said, yes.
20:07:47 <Nicky-NL> thx i dont work so much whit that run program :p
20:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "Das Fernsehen der DDR strahlte Mai–Juli 1987 zehn Episoden (1–5 und 7–11) aus." <- they missed out episode 6 for some reason :p
20:09:34 <Nicky-NL> lol mine firewall says: dedected possible malware behavior in the place where grfcodec is
20:10:11 <mincepie> Eddi|zuHause: likely the goose-stepping
20:10:17 <Nicky-NL> now i got an NEW-file :s
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20:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Nicky-NL: then it did not find the .nfo file
20:13:05 <Nicky-NL> ah i did something wrong?
20:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> where is your .nfo file?
20:14:29 <Nicky-NL> i have did in in an sperate map
20:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> if it is in the same directory as you run grfcodec, you can try "grfcodec -e mygrf.grf ."
20:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the "." is important there
20:20:09 <glx> grfcodec is usually verbose
20:21:45 <Belugas> a mince pie a not a fat pie
20:22:32 <mincepie> Belugas: one of the main ingredients in the traditional recipe is beef suet
20:22:36 <Prof_Frink> A mince pie isn't a pie for long if I'm around.
20:22:50 * mincepie concurs wholeheartedly and high-fives Prof_Frink
20:23:11 <Belugas> therefor, Prof_Frink is not mince anymore
20:23:26 <Belugas> p.s.-> mince in french is thin in english
20:24:17 <mincepie> this is perhaps a gross pie then ¬.¬
20:28:16 <Nicky-NL> is there not an simply program for making grf then?
20:28:34 <petern> SmatZ: "Remember that map automitically sorts its elements according to the key, i.e. the first element."
20:28:42 <petern> SmatZ: so that's why it doesn't work :o
20:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> mincepie: about as gross as cooked wild pig in mince sauce?
20:29:41 <Nicky-NL> well i gonna try tommorow cya :s
20:30:04 <Belugas> ho.. a live petern :)
20:30:14 <DorpsGek> petern: smatz was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 22 hours, 13 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <SmatZ> 9-)
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20:33:54 <Belugas> wroking from work, petern?
20:34:04 <Belugas> hello indeed, by the way...
20:34:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro/mincepie, might be a mistranslation of mine, but it's a line from "Asterix in Britain"
20:35:28 <Belugas> working for work, but from home, on my side. a bit confusing :)
20:35:29 <Prof_Frink> Pig should be with apple sauce. Lamb with mince and beef with horseradish. And yorksher pud.
20:35:48 <mincepie> and pork with cranberry
20:35:54 * Prof_Frink 's brains have turned to mince.
20:35:57 <mincepie> always with yorkshire pudding...
20:36:04 <mincepie> yorkshire puddings are brilliant
20:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's a french movie, after all ;)
20:37:10 <mincepie> it's possible that yorkshire puddings hadn't been invented in the time the film was set :P
20:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that never stopped the asterix writers :p
20:37:54 <Eddi|zuHause> big ben and the tower bridge were not "invented" back then, either
20:38:18 <mincepie> well, actually, there was a bridge there as far back as 900 BC
20:40:06 <Belugas> hu??? you make pudding out of yorkshire??? poor little doggy :(
20:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, anyone knows a program where i can save an rtsp stream to disk?
20:43:13 <Eddi|zuHause> wget refuses the protocol
20:44:41 <Prof_Frink> mplayer -dumpstream
20:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "Cannot dump this stream - no file descriptor available."
20:47:44 <Prof_Frink> You need a deep incantation to get mplayer to work.
20:50:09 <mincepie> and perhaps the sacrifice of a small rodent
20:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Error: Client error. Reply was: 454 Session Not Found
20:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> when i just type "mplayer <url>"
20:51:32 <edeca> Oh bugger, where's the log again?
20:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> ~/.kde/share/apps/konversation/logs
20:52:45 <edeca> petern: Oh yes, of course!
20:53:10 <edeca> Where's the online, browsable version of the IRC logs for this channel from the year of our Lord 2008?
20:53:19 <Prof_Frink> Or possibly fish://192.168.0.2/home/alan/irclogs
20:53:54 <petern> silly people breaking that feature yet again
20:53:58 <petern> usually it was bjarni, though
20:54:39 <Prof_Frink> What size are your pair?
20:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> edeca: there are at least two
20:56:11 <edeca> Eddi|zuHause: I've found the URL I was after now, cheers
20:56:26 <edeca> It's expired though and yorick isn't here, so I wont be doing much more tonight. Gr.
20:56:35 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: try vlc (it supports rtsp)
20:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: well, kaffeine can play the stream
20:56:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but i want to save it...
20:57:03 <glx> vlc can record it for sure
20:57:10 <edeca> You just select the output plugin
20:57:45 <glx> but I don't know the exact command line (I use front end to manage that)
20:57:52 <Eddi|zuHause> 21:57:35: input_rip: Rippen/Zwischenspeichern dieser Quelle nicht erlaubt!
20:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess they do not want that...
20:58:40 <Prof_Frink> Well, there's your problem. You need to erlaubt your Zwischenspeichern.
20:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> which is weird, because the recording is clearly more than 50 years old, so not subject to copyright
20:59:13 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: What's the URL?
21:00:14 <Eddi|zuHause> rtsp://ras01.wdr.de/online/2005/kultur/rundfunk/polen.rm
21:04:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14776 /trunk/src/ (core/smallmap_type.hpp newgrf_engine.cpp): -Fix (r14742): ListPositionMap relied on std::map having sorted the map, which is now done by a manual key sorter on SmallMap. This fixes engine ID list sorting.
21:05:30 *** benjamin_ has joined #openttd
21:05:54 <petern> only a month that time
21:06:40 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: `mplayer -dumpfile polen.rm -dumpstream rtsp://ras01.wdr.de/online/2005/kultur/rundfunk/polen.rm` seemed to work, but I can't get the (96kB) file to play
21:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> who sorts engine lists anyway?
21:09:01 <petern> that's the default sorting
21:09:23 <petern> my 260hp/35kN railcar actually gets stuck going up hill
21:12:20 <petern> yarr, it manages it with a shunter bolted on
21:12:45 <petern> oh, it has 8 carriages attached, which is a bit silly
21:12:50 <petern> it's fine by itself :)
21:13:49 <petern> could do with better brakes
21:13:56 <petern> silly engine power = braking shit
21:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the DBSetXL's railcar (VT 95?) does not reach its max speed with a trailing car attached
21:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> partially because the weight of the wagon is not changed
21:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the railcar itself weighs like 18t, but the trailer weighs 40t
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21:20:20 <petern> hmm, it can't reach max speed :/
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21:23:35 <petern> 725t, 14000kW, 2000kN...
21:23:50 <petern> specs are 435t, 8000kW, 300kN
21:25:09 <Sacro> rather than tweak ttdpatch to work correctly...
21:25:14 <Prof_Frink> <clarkson>POWER!</clarkson>
21:25:31 <Rubidium> but... petern's specs do not comply with MB's reality
21:25:40 <edeca> Just let May drive it, wont go above 45mph
21:25:57 <Prof_Frink> edeca: One word: Veyron.
21:26:33 <Rubidium> petern: the wiki says 8000 kW per engine, maybe it has more than one engine?
21:26:43 <Eddi|zuHause> petern: the VT 95 itself can reach max speed, but if you attach a passenger wagon to it, it doesn't
21:26:51 <edeca> Like 1.8 engines to make 14000? :)
21:27:49 <petern> 500kW per engine, 4 engines per powered carriage, 4 powered carriages
21:27:53 <Rubidium> and 4300 when on DC instead of AC
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21:28:29 <petern> Eddi|zuHause, which one is the E92?
21:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> E94 == BR 194, yes
21:29:19 <Eddi|zuHause> easily the most beautiful engine in the set ;)
21:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (in green livery)
21:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> if only the passenger wagons would be the same length...
21:29:58 <Eddi|zuHause> (2 articulated parts)
21:31:26 <petern> hmm, that overflows somewhat :o
21:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> as for the naming scheme, the letters got turned into numbers with introduction of computers in the late '60s, E->1, V->2 [west germany], E->2, V->1 [east germany],
21:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> with some more or less regular transformation of the rest of the numbers. i.e the V200 got numbered 220 and the V160 to 216 [last digit cut]
21:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that was before computers learned to handle letters ;)
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21:36:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the E94 should be able to handle something like 2000t on flat land, and 500t on slopes
21:37:52 <zircu> dihedral: how cute am i? :)
21:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause> where "slopes" are lines like the Brennerbahn and the Frankenwaldbahn
21:41:21 <petern> i need to calculate the best magic number
21:41:31 <petern> for converting m/s into game-world usable units
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22:04:29 <Prof_Frink> Well, that killed the convo pretty well, eh?
22:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody does that as well as you do
22:18:56 <mincepie> oh, you're thinking of m·s⁻²
22:19:22 <mincepie> Eddi|zuHause: you implement 'em and I'll use 'em :P
22:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> mincepie: well, i had a preliminary case study patch with michi_cc for advance signals. problem was that combo signals need more than 2 states
22:21:38 <Eddi|zuHause> which is not directly a problem, because path signals have only 1 direction, there are 2 bits available
22:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but the map accessor would need to do different things depending if it's a block signal or a path signal
22:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which was a too complex task for me to tackle back then
22:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and that did not even consider the fact that 3 graphical states would be necessary
22:24:14 <Rubidium> petern: what about 584 as magic number? (number of real world seconds per TrainLocoHandler)
22:24:31 * Rubidium got no idea in what kind of range the magic number should be
22:25:58 <Rubidium> = 24 * 3600 / 74 / 2 (TrainLocoHandler gets called twice a tick)
22:28:26 <petern> has to be larger than that
22:34:30 <petern> hmm, no, cos i changed the subspeed
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