IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-10-17
⏴ go to previous day
00:33:08 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
00:58:33 *** Metalcore has joined #openttd
00:59:38 *** izhirahi1er has joined #openttd
00:59:41 *** [demi]Xerres has joined #openttd
01:06:58 *** lobster has joined #openttd
01:12:31 *** bow^znc_ has joined #openttd
01:15:39 *** bow^znc_ is now known as bow^znc
02:36:12 *** A_Person has joined #openttd
03:07:04 *** elmex_ is now known as elmex
03:25:34 *** A_Person has joined #openttd
04:12:34 *** Ridayah_ has joined #openttd
04:12:36 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
06:11:39 *** Doorslammer has joined #openttd
06:13:44 *** A_Person has joined #openttd
06:34:23 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
06:44:59 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
06:54:48 *** A_Person has joined #openttd
08:08:38 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
08:19:39 *** Wezz6400 has joined #openttd
10:15:23 *** Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
10:30:15 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
10:33:58 *** izhirahi1er is now known as izhirahider
10:36:50 <ln> thanks to Spotify, np: "The Best of Leonard Nimoy & William Shatner"
10:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure that violates half a dozen channel rules
10:47:59 <ln> people at the office are suffering
10:56:37 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
11:03:48 *** Frostregen has joined #openttd
11:13:29 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
11:17:44 *** Progman has joined #openttd
11:21:07 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
11:25:02 <DorpsGek> roboboy: orudge was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 11 hours, 17 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <orudge> Hello all
11:25:30 <roboboy> I can not get my client to join #tycoon
11:25:49 <roboboy> any devs around that understand the installer?
11:26:11 <dih> and why do you need an installer?
11:26:20 <dih> why dont you get a proper client?
11:27:08 <roboboy> I mean the openttd installer
11:27:22 <roboboy> ignore my IRC problem
11:33:24 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
11:35:57 *** AmmIer is now known as Ammler
11:36:16 *** svippery has joined #openttd
11:38:34 <dih> why are you using the openttd installer?
11:39:36 <dih> would a online scn editor not be a nice idea?
11:39:43 <dih> could it be made mp safe?
11:39:50 <dih> add the required network commands
11:40:14 <roboboy> are any of the devs that understand the windows installer code online?
11:40:47 <roboboy> I want to make sure I understand something
11:41:03 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
11:41:46 <Alberth> Isn't it easier to try it? It will break all by itself when you got it wrong
11:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the pathfinder penalties are somehow wrong
11:49:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be free track < platform < reserved track < reserved platform
11:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, it prefers a reserved track over a free platform
11:55:53 <dih> SpComb: do you not have a map-array reader in python
11:56:00 <dih> so people can scroll a save game?
11:56:20 <dih> or was that just a giant screenshot one could scroll
11:57:10 <SpComb> dih: no, I didn't implement rendering and whatnot in python, it was just PNG screenshots
11:57:49 <dih> else you could have gone as far as making an scn editor online :-D
12:01:38 <SpComb> well, you could figure out the co-ordinates of objects and then interact with them
12:02:18 <SpComb> i.e. it wouldn't be entirely impossible to implement, say, track-laying, if you did the cursor client-side
12:02:47 <SpComb> but the code isn't very good in terms of what it looks like on the OpenTTD side of things
12:06:28 <dih> SpComb: no tracks - just makeing the landscape and placing towns and industries
12:07:19 <dih> and loading grfs would be a huge impossible i guess :-D
12:08:23 <Ammler> SpComb: is there any progress for the grf downloader?
12:15:26 <SpComb> I got stuck at implementing the client portion, as part of the OpenTTD network code
12:19:14 *** Yeggstry has joined #openttd
12:21:18 <blathijs> Why are there so much bugs for the current stable release?
12:23:40 <Alberth> blathijs: people use the software in unexpected ways :P
12:30:10 <dih> yeah - all those bloody users
12:30:29 <dih> ubuntu is even worse with users - hence they have empoyed developers to fix the bugs :-D
12:31:19 <planetmaker> [14:15] <SpComb> I got stuck at implementing the client portion, as part of the OpenTTD network code <--- a shame :(
12:31:30 <planetmaker> I was really putting hope in you :)
12:32:11 <SpComb> the curl/HTTP-based thing works, but it blocks the whole OpenTTD GUI when it's running
12:32:38 <SpComb> but integrating new functionality with old code is just... difficult
12:39:12 <Ammler> SpComb: BitTorrent would be nice for the GRFRepo :-)
12:39:29 <Ammler> as some servers don't have much upload speed.
12:40:10 <Ammler> so there would be no need for a central server
12:40:51 <SpComb> Ammler: if someone agrees to rewrite OpenTTD's network code...
12:41:20 <SpComb> downloading the GRFs from the OpenTTD server itself isn't an impossibility, and it's kind of the same
12:41:53 <Ammler> the server would then need to upload for evey cleint
12:42:08 <SpComb> but the network code needs some modifications to support non-game-client connections
12:42:24 <Ammler> so the server has to upload the map and the grfs, that could produce quite much traffic.
12:42:56 <SpComb> depends on how many GRFs and unique clients the server has
12:43:08 <SpComb> GRFs with the same md5sum won't be downloaded twice
12:43:53 <Ammler> just think about 1. joins
12:44:16 <Ammler> wwottdgd would be a good example
12:44:34 <Ammler> many of the clients don't have the grfs.
12:44:55 <Ammler> so they would need to download the map and the grfs all from same server, around 20MB
12:45:40 <Ammler> if 10 clients joins at same time, that could produce "laggs".
12:46:12 <SpComb> depends on the server, I guess, but the clients have got to download that 20MB from somewhere
12:46:21 <SpComb> and there's no need to pause the game while downloading NewGRFs
12:47:05 <SpComb> anyways, if I ever manage to work out the client code, I'll probably write the server separately in python before touching the OpenTTD server code
12:47:26 <Ammler> and if you don't have a central repo, you do not have to care about licenses
12:47:40 <Ammler> that would be up to the server admin.
12:48:51 <FauxFaux> Ammler: Mmm, not so, I believe in many countries providing the information to get unredistributable files is illegal.
12:50:45 <petern> Backwards driving does not happen, it is merely a graphical hack that some NewGRFs implement.
12:51:02 <petern> If it was proper backwards driving, it wouldn't require NewGRF support at all.
12:51:35 <planetmaker> hm... ok. But a grf should be able to specify whether a train can drive backward.
12:51:45 <Ammler> FauxFaux: it does not just provide information, you do also download there.
12:51:45 <petern> There's no such facility.
12:52:05 <planetmaker> ok :) A pity, wouldn't you like it? :D
12:52:07 <Eddi|zuHause> german law says that copying a file is license-free if the process is an integral part of using it
12:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> which i think would cover automatically downloading grfs, as long as they are not accessible from outside that game
12:53:57 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: well, if you take them from "cache", you can use them outside
12:54:06 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggs-work
12:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause> but extracting from cache is illegal then ;)
12:54:24 <Ammler> but that would be the same as now with our grfpack
12:54:44 <Ammler> there are people using it in SP, which is also illeagal
12:55:15 <planetmaker> thanks for clarification, petern :)
12:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> downloading the grf pack is a completely different situationnn
12:55:58 <Sacro> Ammler: cite why it is illegal
12:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> because downloading it is not an integral part of a process of using it
12:56:30 <Ammler> some of the authors allow including of the GRFs only for MP usage.
12:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> which means that part of the law does not apply
12:57:43 <Ammler> Sacro: because you need to read the docs for SP mode.
12:58:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that paragraph of the german law covers situations like copying a video from hard disk to memory, in order to play it
12:58:37 <Sacro> Ammler: is the licence actually enforcible though?
12:58:38 <Ammler> well, german law isn't that representative, is it?
12:59:04 <Ammler> isn't it too restrictive?
12:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i can't speak of other countries' laws :p
12:59:42 <Ammler> if it is in germany allowed, it is allowed everywhere, I guess :-)
13:00:14 <Eddi|zuHause> of course copyright law is restrictive. that's what licenses are for, loosening restrictions of copyright
13:00:52 <Sacro> Ammler: depends what it states
13:01:01 <Eddi|zuHause> copyright is like the lowest comon denominator of distributionnnn
13:01:03 <Sacro> it might have the wonderful ability to nullify itself
13:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> fuck this keyboard...
13:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> copyright law is about what you can do with other people's work, without asking them for permission
13:03:29 <Ammler> the GRFpack itself has no license
13:03:49 <Eddi|zuHause> licenses can give additional permissions
13:03:52 <planetmaker> Ammler: not quite true IMO
13:04:15 <planetmaker> the license is: don't distribute and take individual licenses of the authors.
13:04:15 <Ammler> well, it has the license of the most restrictive GRF
13:04:22 <roboboy> this is interesting and I do not want to go to bed now
13:04:27 <Ammler> which doesn't allow playing SP :-)
13:04:34 <planetmaker> good morning roboboy :P
13:05:09 <Ammler> those from Pikka, i.e.
13:06:42 <Ammler> but the point is, I am sure, there are people using the pack to play SP too.
13:07:31 <Ammler> and nobody can control that, so a autodownloader for MP games does also not need to control that., imo.
13:09:44 <Ammler> (1. sentence in our readme, btw.)
13:09:56 <roboboy> gnight if you are done talking on the subject
13:20:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no, we're not :p
13:50:17 <dih> ln: congrats on using internet time
13:50:28 <dih> or whatever you wanna call it :-P
13:51:37 *** stillunknown has joined #openttd
13:54:20 <ln> wrote support for it today
13:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> not only the americans have no clue :p
14:10:21 <A_Person> Those japanese fast trains have some badass styling too
14:16:30 <DorpsGek> Ammler: Yorick was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 0 hours, 36 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <yorick> yes, it only works from gui
14:16:58 * A_Person conciders making a 2048 map by hand
14:17:59 <Alberth> One byte at a time :P
14:19:18 <A_Person> I'm thinking varying elevattion zones might be interesting, especially with subarctic
14:19:57 <A_Person> And I want to find out what it costs o build a ralway from one corner t the opposite
14:21:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's easy, open second viewport at one end, scroll to other end, select autorail, hold shift, and drag from one viewport to the other :p
14:21:23 <A_Person> Hehe, well, that'll work on a flat map
14:21:47 <A_Person> and doesn't include the cost of trains
14:22:19 <A_Person> Actually it makes me wonder if it would actually be profitable to run the trains bakc the whole way
14:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if you run them back empty, probably not
14:25:08 <A_Person> but then a train hauling cargo both ways would run half empty anyway
14:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you need hardly any pulling power for the empty wagons, so you can make trains twice as long
14:32:07 <A_Person> Hmm, I never thought of that
14:32:21 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
14:32:33 <A_Person> The stats do describe the cars as something like 1/3 of the combined weight tho
14:32:45 <A_Person> or 1/4 maybe, it was yesterday, I forgot
14:33:28 <A_Person> Guess I'll just have to do some proper sandboxing to figure it all out
14:53:10 *** stillunk1own has joined #openttd
15:03:44 *** [demi]Xerres has joined #openttd
15:18:34 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
15:29:04 <Li-On> from now on only commit without comment, please
15:30:00 <A_Person> Hmm, so many unfamiliar words
15:31:36 <FauxFaux> German? They're probably banal plesantries. *runs*
15:32:22 <Li-On> r14475 is a secrect feature, because it has the comment 'no comment'.
15:32:23 <Li-On> I really like this theory.
15:34:54 <A_Person> Blah, I want to use huge station spread but the wiki tells spooky stories about that combined with YAPF
15:37:38 <A_Person> Cause I was trying to decide which option to ditch
15:38:27 <A_Person> " Be careful if not using the YAPF pathfinding though: The game will slow and then become unstable when you set this to a value higher than the default of 12."
15:39:04 <A_Person> English has outsmarted me yet again
15:39:05 <petern> That statement is also bollocks.
15:39:16 <glx> it was true a long time ago IIRC
15:39:23 <A_Person> It claims the opposite than I thought it did
15:39:34 <fonso> Doesn't it do a square search for station tiles somewhere?
15:39:38 <A_Person> I think it actually says the huge stations work better, not worse with YAPF
15:39:52 <fonso> The effort for that would grow quadratically with station spread.
15:40:07 <petern> The problem originally was graphical, and totally unrelated to pathfinding.
15:40:28 <A_Person> Guess I'll have to test and see, heh
15:41:16 <A_Person> I misread it anyway, so my panic was unnecessary
15:41:56 <A_Person> It could still be true for the old pathfinders, no?
15:42:24 <glx> it never was pathfinding related
15:43:41 <A_Person> the game itself still has a warning that "High setting slows game" in 063
15:43:47 *** lobster_MB has joined #openttd
15:44:33 <glx> yes and the warning in the wiki should be the same
15:45:45 <A_Person> Does make me wonder if that specific processing load can be optimised more
15:46:11 <glx> but IIRC this "problem" doesn't exist now
15:48:39 *** Dr_Jekyll has joined #openttd
15:51:24 *** DaleStan has joined #openttd
16:01:01 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
16:01:18 <A_Person> Note to self: add to wiki the specific elevation at which sub-arctic elevation-specific differences appear
16:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the snow line? that can be adjusted
16:05:27 * A_Person regenerates an arctic map
16:06:02 <A_Person> Don't see it in editor
16:06:20 <glx> it's in the generator window
16:07:25 <A_Person> so it's displayed by one of the partially snowy tiles
16:33:29 <A_Person> land area information and the generator's snowline onset don't seem to match very well
16:36:51 * A_Person tries inventing a mnemonic
16:37:43 <A_Person> the border at which one puts desert in editor is one tile smaller than the land area information for the desert area, smae for snowline
16:41:06 *** thingwath has joined #openttd
16:43:03 * A_Person curses at discrete math, which he despises
16:43:36 *** stillunknown has joined #openttd
16:43:46 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
16:46:12 *** thingwath has joined #openttd
16:46:19 <A_Person> 0-2046 should be 2047 tiles, making 1023 the middle point
16:47:45 *** stillunknown has joined #openttd
16:47:50 *** Swallow has joined #openttd
16:49:11 *** grumbel has joined #openttd
16:53:07 <Rubidium> 2047 is MP_VOID so he can't see it
16:53:43 <Belugas> bon apres-midi, tu veux dire :)
16:54:44 <Belugas> ben.. en tout ca, pour moi :S
16:55:19 <Sacro> je suis mal a la err... throat
16:57:36 <Belugas> "j'ai mal a la gorge"
16:57:58 <glx> auxilliary verbs are fun ;)
16:58:27 <Belugas> and english has somehow eluded the question :)
16:58:52 <glx> yeah like male/female words :)
17:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, it's the opposite of what you think :p
17:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> err... has arrow-key-scrolling stopped working?
17:05:08 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: works for me in HEAD++ ;)
17:07:48 <frosch123> a lot stuff works in headM
17:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i use cargodest+timetable+daylength+some small stuff
17:11:49 <A_Person> odd nr of tiles per side is good anyway, that way the axis of the map is on a tile, instead of between
17:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that a) relevant, and b) better?
17:14:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14479 /trunk/ (config.lib src/gfx.cpp): -Add: initial (optional) support for handling bidirectional scripts and connecting Arabic characters.
17:15:09 <A_Person> I'm a symmetry freak
17:15:17 <A_Person> it matches with the 3*3 city grid
17:15:54 <A_Person> actually, any city is centered on a road tile
17:16:13 <A_Person> a city in the middle of the map has a road tile in the middle of the map
17:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> if you say so...
17:16:58 <A_Person> with an even number of tiles, that isn't the case
17:21:48 *** giddorah has joined #openttd
17:22:00 <giddorah> Hey... I've got a problem with Cargodest... Using windows
17:22:27 <giddorah> Downloaded the windows binary
17:22:31 <giddorah> Unzipped to a folder
17:22:36 <giddorah> Copied data from other install
17:22:45 <giddorah> Started... It starts perfectly
17:22:52 <giddorah> Fiddle around with difficulty settings
17:23:08 <giddorah> And... I don't get any of the fancy stuff from the screenshots on the Wiki :(
17:23:52 <Eddi|zuHause> giddorah: you need to go to the advanced settings->economy section and enable the destinations
17:24:54 <giddorah> Instead of anywhere I should have "chosen destinations"?
17:26:31 <giddorah> Sweet! And that's everything I have to do? Now passengers are gonna start taking connecting trains to get to their final destinations?
17:27:44 <giddorah> Awesome :) Thanks :) I knew it was something I had missed
17:28:22 <Wolf01> what does change when I disable inflation on year 2165?
17:29:00 <Rubidium> depending on when you started: absolutely nothing or inflation stops
17:31:03 <Wolf01> so the base cost multiplier is not reset to 1, but it only stops to sum it another 0.x at month?
17:32:59 <Rubidium> inflation only happens for 170 years though
17:33:03 <Wolf01> I should have disabled it a thousand ages before... the running cost of trains is absurdly high
17:33:40 <A_Person> Hmm, this makes me wonder what the total multiplier by the end of the 170 years would be
17:34:16 <A_Person> oh, not couted from the year you start?
17:35:39 <Rubidium> who said it isn't counted from the year you start?
17:35:43 <A_Person> I should add that to the wiki if it's only those years, not a floating count
17:36:06 <Wolf01> it's 170 years since you start
17:36:25 <Rubidium> unless you cheat your way into the future or back in time
17:36:27 <A_Person> nobody, the wiki where I saw the limited duration of inflation occurring didn't specify a starting year for those years
17:36:44 <A_Person> mentioned, not occurring
17:37:17 <Rubidium> well... IMO it's sane to assume that other people assume it's from the time where you start, right?
17:37:52 <A_Person> I did, so I think it's reasonable to assume
17:38:09 <A_Person> <@Rubidium> 2090-1920
17:38:14 <A_Person> but what does that mean
17:39:01 <Rubidium> A_Person: pass that through a calculator type of device/tool and then interpret what Wolf01 asked the line before that reply of me
17:39:14 <A_Person> it would seem like rubidium claimed it startw and ends with those years, not the year on estarts+170
17:42:06 <Swallow> Let me repeat the question I asked Wednesday: Does my 'improved breakdowns' patch have any chance of getting into trunk?
17:43:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14480 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Add: warning when trying to use a right-to-left language without support for it in OpenTTD.
17:45:06 <A_Person> I should figure out what the game interprets as aplphabetical order
17:47:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14481 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt unfinished/latvian.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
17:47:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-17 17:47:40
17:47:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 4 changed by leejaeuk5 (4)
17:47:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 10 fixed by v3rb0 (10)
17:47:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: persian - 55 fixed by ali sattari (55)
17:48:04 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
17:49:17 <A_Person> ? is unrecognized by ottd
17:57:54 <Belugas> liar! it's 6, the reverse of ^
17:58:23 <A_Person> Funny thing is that mIRC's input box displays symbols like that, also for the eur symbol, but doesn't in the display field
17:58:50 * A_Person looks at Belugas oddly
18:02:31 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
18:03:08 <Belugas> !1 @2 #3 $4 %5 ^6 ...
18:03:08 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
18:03:40 <A_Person> ah, my ^ is on the key
18:04:11 <glx> A_Person: you have a square key?
18:04:18 <frosch123> glx: Belugas is not SmatZ :)
18:05:08 <glx> configure your client to send utf8
18:06:12 <A_Person> it has utf-8 selected
18:08:16 <glx> and the MS page you linked to doesn't work in firefox
18:10:24 <frosch123> the "£$€" line is funny
18:10:40 <A_Person> Wow, mIRC is sure weird
18:10:51 <A_Person> I can see the sign from frosch123 just fine :D
18:11:17 <A_Person> When I send, it displays as black square
18:12:29 <frosch123> why do you have a "½" on your keyboard?
18:13:28 <A_Person> I don't have the latter 4 you posted
18:13:57 <frosch123> Sacro: ⅛⅜⅝⅞ even sillier symbols
18:14:55 <Progman> . o O (and I read "Cryptography_(Theory)"
18:16:19 *** turbofisk has joined #openttd
18:17:34 * A_Person gets a moment of WTF, two eur signs on kb?
18:18:50 <bow^znc> I wonder why any broken/corrupt utf sequences always seem to be interpreted as those truly bizarre burmese glyphs, in gnome + pidgin heh
18:25:58 <Sacro> though not strictly braille
18:26:18 <frosch123> I always thought it was a braille page, but in fact it is a binary page...
18:26:58 <A_Person> page of a book you mean?
18:33:20 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
18:57:15 <ln> i wonder wtf happened, there was no tab from where i copied it.
18:57:45 <Sacro> but it won't highlight him
18:57:50 *** thingwath has joined #openttd
18:58:05 <ln> Sacro: thank you. the nobel prize can be sent me by mail.
19:17:55 <Belugas> Chocky attacked again!
19:57:02 <A_Person> Anyone know why the shortcut for double sized display doesn't work anymore?
19:59:47 <glx> because it was windows only and the blitters have been rewritten
20:02:12 <Bjarni> ln: highlighting actually works
20:26:46 *** Frostregen_ has joined #openttd
20:28:42 *** th1ngwath has joined #openttd
20:31:56 *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
20:37:59 *** ben_goodger has joined #openttd
20:55:32 *** Nite_Owl has joined #openttd
20:55:35 <ln> Bjarni: how much of William Shatner have you been listening to today?
20:58:02 <ben_goodger> "I have here the only working phaser ever built. It was fired only once, to keep William Shatner from making another album." ~ Comic Book Guy
21:03:52 *** eQualizer|dada has joined #openttd
21:18:20 <Bjarni> <ln> Bjarni: how much of William Shatner have you been listening to today? <--- I didn't even think about him at all
21:18:58 <Bjarni> I spent time on uni stuff most of the day
21:19:42 *** turbofisk has left #openttd
21:23:56 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
21:26:27 *** babyottd has joined #openttd
21:26:41 <babyottd> I know 1752 words (7997 contexts, 4.56 per word), 1363 lines.
21:27:04 <ln> babyottd: how are you today, sir?
21:27:07 <Bjarni> William Shatner wants babyottd back?
21:27:18 <babyottd> remove this, isn't bank with them back together again
21:27:49 <Bjarni> maybe I should go to bed
21:28:01 <babyottd> curplayer, which is way too funny
21:30:57 <Nite_Owl> Oops - my bad - I misread that
21:31:23 <Bjarni> maybe we should use a bigger font xD
21:31:29 <babyottd> it use the variable or does
21:31:31 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
21:31:45 <Bjarni> and somehow I think somebody is controlling babyottd
21:31:53 <babyottd> i think somebody added that line on purpose
21:32:18 <Bjarni> babyottd: how many fingers do I hold up right now?
21:32:27 <babyottd> d : how many fingers do i hold up right now ?
21:32:53 <babyottd> Bjarni your a goner : p
21:32:58 <Sacro> Bjarni: he said "epic boobs" the other day
21:33:11 <Sacro> i love blowing them up, so defenceless
21:33:12 <babyottd> control you have a savings account at icesave ?
21:33:15 <Bjarni> what is he trying to do???
21:33:36 <Brianetta> Bjarni: I'm the only one who could "control" the bot (if I figured it out) and I'm not.
21:33:36 <babyottd> i could, but Brianetta interrupted, )
21:33:58 <babyottd> that's working on it
21:34:23 <Bjarni> so babyottd is controlling babyottd?
21:34:23 <Brianetta> Why else would you be plowing up defenceless goners?
21:34:36 <Brianetta> Bjarni: He's running autonomously, yes
21:34:51 <Brianetta> plowing? I meant blowing
21:34:53 *** GoneWacko has joined #openttd
21:34:58 <Bjarni> babyottd called me a goner
21:35:06 <babyottd> one called schauble ? who votes for kban
21:35:10 <Sacro> Brianetta: blowing works, when in a T1 :p
21:36:04 <babyottd> p : did he get that from your memory !
21:36:39 <Sacro> Bjarni: I think he's attempting :p
21:37:24 <Sacro> hmm, why do i see F0F0F0 as nearer white than FFFFFF
21:37:39 <planetmaker> is here any dev who'd like to have a look at why some industries receive goods at our public server?
21:37:47 <babyottd> a funny look cause im laughing so much : p
21:38:46 <planetmaker> Using PBI, we have there a range of industries with no drop station nearby, but they're happily producing goods...
21:39:08 <Sacro> planetmaker: i've had that bug too
21:39:15 <Sacro> Belugas took a look iirc
21:39:33 <Sacro> i had a 375T a month factory
21:39:35 <planetmaker> we're using r14469.
21:39:43 <planetmaker> yeah, something like that.
21:39:47 <babyottd> germany was divided into two separ
21:39:52 <planetmaker> with quite a lot of industries.
21:39:58 <babyottd> a lot of thought indeed : p
21:40:45 <planetmaker> but good to know that it's not just me and a few other people who are just too stupid to work with them :)
21:40:47 <Bjarni> babyottd: what do you think about the American election?
21:42:29 <Sacro> planetmaker: could be sometimes to do with similar names
21:42:34 <babyottd> could siSacroece at most
21:42:59 <planetmaker> hm... I'll play around with it a bit :)
21:44:00 <ln> i wonder what that siSacroece is... some kind of bug? didn't he say "siBjarniece" the other day?
21:44:07 <babyottd> i wonder what that silnece is
21:44:40 <Bjarni> silnece is when nobody is around
21:44:50 <Sacro> Bjarni: no, that's silence
21:45:10 <ln> 00:44 <babyottd> that's right, ln is a country located in southwestern europe on the first pyborg babytom ever spoke
21:45:51 <Bjarni> wow silnece is an actual word o_O
21:45:56 <babyottd> it is an actual word Bjarni
21:47:04 <Brianetta> !wow si#nickece is an actual word o_O
21:47:04 <Brianetta> ![21:45:31] <babyottd> > #openttd> it is an actual word Bjarni
21:47:26 <Brianetta> it's replacing ln with #nick
21:47:26 <babyottd> to agree with Brianetta
21:47:48 <Bjarni> looks like google caught a whole lot of mistyped "silence" :P
21:47:55 <Brianetta> ln: You are polluting words contaiing your nick
21:48:52 <ln> but, but... what is this si#nickece thing anyway?
21:50:02 <ln> i figured that much, but why?
21:50:19 <babyottd> chuckle too much laughing to be shortening sentences and reconstruct them oddly : p
21:50:50 <Brianetta> You know, you guys keep saying it, which is what's with it
21:51:06 * Brianetta is deleting it from the word database periodically
21:51:12 <Brianetta> You lot keep putting it right back
21:51:58 <ln> ok, let's just call it the word we do not speak of.
21:52:30 <ln> babyottd: you have a phone?
21:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd: /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTDx/paxdest2/src/road_map.h:23: RoadTileType GetRoadTileType(TileIndex): Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_ROAD)' failed. <- wtf?
21:53:36 <Bjarni> you are named Johannes?
21:53:58 <Bjarni> I thought you were named Christian :s
21:54:06 <Bjarni> or something like that
21:54:26 <Brianetta> Never mind the assert fail, Eddi has a surprising username!
21:55:41 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: you are only supposed to use GetRoadTileType() on tiles with a road
21:55:58 <Bjarni> and for some reason you did this anyway
21:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> why would i be named Christian?
21:56:35 <Bjarni> I think you once told us
21:56:48 <Bjarni> but maybe you told that you have a Christian name :)
21:57:04 <ben_goodger> hurrah, conversation
21:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> why would i tell i'd be named Christian when i am called Johannes?
21:57:09 <babyottd> ben_goodger conversation : d
21:57:09 <babyottd> a christian name : )
21:57:12 <Bjarni> not that it's actual Christian
21:57:18 <babyottd> should be named christian : s
21:57:30 <Bjarni> he should be named Christian
21:57:49 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: babyottd just decided that you should be named Christian :P
21:58:04 <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause: christian name == forename
21:58:04 <glx> babyottd: let's talk about Sacro :)
21:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> then i must obey to the almighty babyottd
21:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> ben_goodger: i've never heard it in that context in german
21:58:46 <babyottd> we've had that bug too
21:58:53 <Bjarni> I knew that people were naming bots, but bots naming people?
21:59:23 <Bjarni> <babyottd> we've had that bug too <-- what bug? :D
21:59:34 <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause: no, you wouldn't... it stems from the time of people picking "christian" names from the bible to go with their family names
21:59:36 <Eddi|zuHause> well, colonies deciding not to want to pay taxes was new once also :p
21:59:40 <babyottd> should be named christian : p
21:59:41 <babyottd> once i nearly met tom
21:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ben_goodger: it's not like that was not done in germany
22:00:00 <babyottd> written by tom morton
22:00:06 <babyottd> by tom morton when the first person to converse with this highly intelligent
22:00:25 <babyottd> I am a version 1.1.0 PyBorg
22:00:25 *** Brianetta was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
22:00:26 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
22:00:32 <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause: true, I suppose... possibly germans are just better at making nouns than the English (mittwoch wins)
22:00:53 <babyottd> of course, you corrected yourself
22:00:54 <babyottd> : it told me to run again
22:01:20 <babyottd> I know 2082 words (10003 contexts, 4.80 per word), 1669 lines.
22:01:35 <Brianetta> your script has a bug
22:01:35 <babyottd> inside your intestines
22:01:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ben_goodger: well, but "forename" is the equivalent of the german "Vorname", so that word obviously exists, too
22:01:42 <Bjarni> I wish I could learn new words that fast
22:01:42 <babyottd> a word that is ? d :
22:01:47 <Brianetta> it can't tell a coop retard from me )-:
22:01:49 <babyottd> i wish he'd make a brilliant father
22:02:38 <ben_goodger> I believe "forename" comes directly from Vorname, while christian name is a less sensible alternative concocted by the religious nut-jobs who ran our country until c. 1600
22:02:45 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't you the host of the whole coop mess? :p
22:03:59 <ben_goodger> hmm... I've just noticed that german has an inflection for the accusative case
22:04:16 <ben_goodger> it's even better structured than I thought
22:05:26 *** Yexo is now known as Guest463
22:05:40 <ben_goodger> what is best --- screenplay, novel, storyboard or comic strip?
22:06:26 *** Guest463 is now known as yexo
22:06:32 *** ben_goodger has joined #openttd
22:07:13 <Bjarni> the X is not a key to give you x-ray vision in IRC
22:08:00 <ben_goodger> Yexo: make your mind up
22:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> ben_goodger: what do you mean by inflection for the accusative case?
22:08:08 <babyottd> in mind that when ben_goodger sees a word
22:08:33 <ben_goodger> babyottd: what the hell are you talking about?
22:08:40 <babyottd> i asked about owner of ben_goodger bot
22:09:35 <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause: "ich liebe meinen vornamen" has "vornamen" rather than "vorname" due to me doing something to it
22:09:44 <ben_goodger> english just has "forename" for both cases
22:09:45 <Bjarni> yeah... who added the ben_goodger bot in here?
22:09:47 <babyottd> lame rather make him say gaga from time to what ? : ben_goodger
22:09:53 <Eddi|zuHause> english is lame :p
22:10:23 <Bjarni> let's all switch to Engrish instead
22:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the english language has undergone some significant simplifications due to people of different language groups mixing, and trying to adapt to the other people's language
22:12:12 <ben_goodger> it's a big mess, in other words
22:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> most notably when the anglo saxons met with the nordic tribes, who share the same language roots, but their languages developed independently
22:12:28 <ln> one stupidity was leaving the thorn or whatever letter out of the alphabet.
22:12:36 <Bjarni> International English is just like US English: a polluted version of British English
22:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> they basically ended up with the least common denominator of both languages
22:13:32 <ben_goodger> it does look rather too much like P, and we manage OK with "TH"
22:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> influence from roman and french was mostly vocabulary, not so much grammar
22:14:16 <Bjarni> þ is actually a rune that survived to present day in Icelandic
22:14:25 <babyottd> not actually evil, but Bjarni has no male sauce
22:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but contact with those also meant a simplification in grammar
22:14:43 <ln> ben_goodger: sure you manage as there is no better alternative, but just imagine how practical it would be to have a letter for such a common sound.
22:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it's after midnight, babyottd is getting nasty :p
22:14:58 <Bjarni> Brianetta: babyottd just went really bad :(
22:15:16 <ben_goodger> ln: we have a huge number of sounds that have no letter... it's imperfect but we cope fine
22:15:20 <ln> i guess you could manage without 'v', too, if it wasn't in the alphabet.
22:15:48 <ben_goodger> well, the romans managed without U and W
22:15:57 <Bjarni> Arabic works without vowels. I heard it makes reading it interesting at times
22:16:16 <ben_goodger> Bjarni: hebrew also
22:16:26 <Bjarni> resulting in Abdallah and Abdullah to be written in the same way
22:16:48 <ben_goodger> excuse me, I must interrupt
22:16:49 <Bjarni> Brianetta is a barman?
22:16:55 <babyottd> takes on a whole new meaning
22:16:56 <ben_goodger> what the hell is this babyottd thing?
22:17:06 <Bjarni> hey barkeep... I need another pint
22:17:21 <ben_goodger> is it a really insane human, or some sort of dreadful chat bot?
22:17:24 <ln> also the Great Vowel Shift was... so unnecessary.
22:17:32 <Bjarni> ben_goodger: the first :(
22:17:42 <ben_goodger> then why is it still here, polluting?
22:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: well, vowels are very redundant in most cases. if you take the song "Drei Chinesen mit dem Kontrabaß", there's a play with this song, where you replace every vowel with a different one, and pretty much always you can still understand it
22:17:47 <babyottd> ( : s still ignoring me
22:17:55 <babyottd> will always eat the cheese, which is what word that
22:18:03 <ln> Brianetta: he has passed the turing test!
22:18:42 <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause: unfortunately, many languages including english have plenty of words that are pronounced the same way except for one vowel
22:19:09 <Bjarni> I would hate to write "you" without vowels
22:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> english words tend to be shorter than german words ;)
22:19:25 <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause: true....
22:19:36 <ben_goodger> ln: "u" is a vowel
22:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it's spoken "ju", it can't be a vowel ;)
22:20:40 *** Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggzzz
22:21:45 <ben_goodger> /ju/ is its "name", /u/ is its pronunciation
22:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly was this "great vowel shift" about anyway? a->ä, e->i, i->ai, u->?
22:21:58 <Brianetta> Muahahahahah! just doesn't have the same impact without vowels.
22:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: the vowels are still spoken, only not written
22:22:39 <Bjarni> the same goes for aaaiiiiigggghhhhh
22:23:11 <ln> Eddi|zuHause: this thing that /a/ becomes /ei/, /e/ becomes /i/, etc. yeah.
22:23:19 <Brianetta> Eddi: There was also the consonant shift. S -> T, T -> D, D -> TH etc
22:23:29 <Bjarni> Brianetta: you can't tell if you write "hahaha" or "hohoho" without vowels though
22:23:31 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
22:23:52 <ben_goodger> جميع الحروف الساكنة وأحرف العلة لا يجعل من العربية وهو الخلط بين البرنامج النصي.
22:24:07 <Bjarni> I can't pronounce that
22:24:14 <Brianetta> Some languages just weren't designed for the typeset press.
22:24:15 <ln> ben_goodger: /u/ alone cannot be the pronunciation of the letter "u".
22:24:32 <ben_goodger> ln: try the second "u" in vacuum
22:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> most languages are significantly older than the typeset press :p
22:25:05 <ben_goodger> to be fair, arabic did evolve using a brush
22:25:24 <Bjarni> so did Chinese and Japanese
22:25:26 <ben_goodger> greek and latin had little chisels
22:25:34 <Bjarni> they don't suffer from that problem
22:26:06 <ben_goodger> but if you were to try and accurately reproduce handwritten latin, it would
22:26:41 <ben_goodger> no "s" in any word in my handwriting looks the same as the "s" in any other word
22:26:53 <Bjarni> にほんご <-- only one way to pronounce this
22:26:55 <ben_goodger> they have different sources and destinations for the pen
22:27:22 <Bjarni> we can have different sounds for a single letter depending on where the letter is
22:27:24 <ben_goodger> so it would be extremely difficult to try and typeset handwriting
22:27:45 <Bjarni> like "i" in "Iceland" and "is"
22:27:59 <ln> ben_goodger: there's no second u in vacuum from the pronunciation perspective.
22:28:30 <ben_goodger> you're just saying it too quickly
22:29:12 <Bjarni> ln: you aren't supposed to swallow letters from vacuum when you try to say it
22:29:32 <Bjarni> even though vacuum tends to swallow stuff
22:29:50 <petern> there is, if you pronounce it incorrectly
22:29:54 <Bjarni> and transports sounds really bad (or not at all)
22:30:36 <ben_goodger> Bjarni: remember that the second R is part of the "or" diphthong and hence an honorary vowel
22:30:45 <ben_goodger> so it's really "trnspts"
22:30:58 <ben_goodger> which requires that you say it with two vowels, so it's OK
22:31:22 <Brianetta> It looks like Tyrannospots, the dalmatian dino
22:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the german word "Vakuum" has two perfect "u" sounds...
22:33:37 <petern> IPA: /ˈvækjuəm/, SAMPA: /"v{kju@m/ or IPA: /ˈvækjuːm/, SAMPA: /"v{kju:m/
22:34:16 <ln> in english the length of a vowel never changes the meaning of a word.
22:34:47 <ben_goodger> Brianetta: "sport" goes down at the end
22:35:06 <ben_goodger> or rather, it exhibits descending intonation
22:35:09 <Brianetta> I don't think it does. I think it's flat, but lower all the way.
22:35:39 <ln> it's not the same vowel in spot and sport.
22:35:40 <ben_goodger> meh, whichever way, it's not the same vowel sound
22:35:50 <Brianetta> Depends what you mean by lengthening. I can't think of a way, in English, that you'd lengthen any vowel without it being considered some other vowel.
22:37:14 <ln> and d'ogh, correction to my earlier line: /ˈvækjuːəm/ ... the image was bad quality.
22:40:29 <fjb> Hm, is that doing something sane: sub_cmd = ++(strchr(cmd, FLU_COMMAND_SEPARATOR));
22:41:23 <TrueBrain> the position after the firt FLU_COMMAND_SEPERATOR char
22:41:50 <TrueBrain> the only thing that suprises me, is that you can do ++ before the statement :)
22:42:02 <TrueBrain> well, why not .. :)
22:42:03 <fjb> sub_cmd points to the char after the separator char?
22:42:04 <vvv444> Will give 0+1 if not found
22:42:11 <TrueBrain> that I just said :)
22:42:24 <TrueBrain> the only bad assumption here is that there is a seperator :)
22:42:57 <Bjarni> presuming can be quite fast
22:43:10 <Bjarni> presuming without knowing for sure can be really dangerous
22:43:29 <Bjarni> specially if you didn't consider error handling
22:43:37 <fjb> Hm, you are right, it doesn't let me use ++ there. :-(
22:43:50 <TrueBrain> fjb: a more readable way to put this, would be: sub_cmd = strchr(cmd, FLU_COMMAND_SEPARATOR) + 1;
22:44:17 <vvv444> I insist on camparing to NULL first...
22:44:33 <fjb> Ah, I will try that. But it is really more sane to chek for the separator first.
22:44:40 <TrueBrain> fjb: ++ only works on variables .. which strchr isn't :p
22:45:01 <TrueBrain> not more sane, mandatory!
22:45:03 <ln> I'd say the return value of that thing is not something you can apply ++ to.
22:45:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, it crashed again with the same error
22:45:39 <fjb> Comparing to NULL is not required there.
22:46:04 <vvv444> fjb: If you are sure there is a separator it isn't.
22:46:40 <fjb> Oh, ok, the return value. Yes, you are right then.
22:47:06 <TrueBrain> sub_cmd = strchr(cmd, FLU_COMMAND_SEPARATOR); if (sub_cmd == NULL) error(); sub_cmd++;
22:47:21 <TrueBrain> (or ++sub_cmd; as last statement if you want an opcode less :p)
22:47:37 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i recompile with debug symbols?
22:47:57 <Bjarni> ./configure --enable-debug=3
22:48:00 <TrueBrain> also avoids inlines
22:48:05 <TrueBrain> lvl1 only gives symbols
22:48:10 <Sacro> ./configure --enable-debug=:3
22:48:15 <vvv444> That's what he asked :)
22:48:17 <TrueBrain> @kick Sacro failure
22:48:17 *** Sacro was kicked by DorpsGek (failure)
22:48:28 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: lvl3 is dead slow
22:48:43 <glx> not as slow as MSVC debug
22:48:50 <Bjarni> but really useful for tracking what went wrong
22:48:55 <vvv444> TB: Does it enable any optimization at all?
22:49:40 <vvv444> glx: tnx. Btw, MSVC debug can be used with optimizations.
22:49:44 <TrueBrain> vvv444: the name is TrueBrain, use <tab> ...
22:50:24 <Bjarni> it's called "Computer. Exit"
22:50:27 <glx> vvv444: optimisations may cause bugs (we had that)
22:50:28 <vvv444> TrueBrain: Last time I used IRC was 5 years ago. Thanks for the tip. Sorry for shortening.
22:51:09 <TrueBrain> vvv444: no problem, it is just my IRC doens't light up on TB :p
22:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> IRC clients had tab completition for more than 5 years :p
22:51:59 <vvv444> glx: I had that too. Moreover, I have had compiler bugs even without (gcc for dsPic processor)
22:52:32 <TrueBrain> compiler-bugs are lovely to trace :)
22:53:03 <vvv444> To disassemble mostly, on embeded processor without proper debugger it just causes reset.
22:53:19 <TrueBrain> (/me points to gcc 2.95 ;))
22:53:27 <glx> optimisations showed us some undefine behaviour
22:53:43 <TrueBrain> I wish you all a good night
22:53:49 <TrueBrain> fjb: good luck with your assignment :)
22:54:03 <glx> like func(Random(), Random()) working in debug but failing in release
22:54:22 <TrueBrain> glx: LOL! Nice example .. bad coding-practice ;)
22:54:28 <TrueBrain> I need to remember that ... :)
22:54:37 <fjb> TrueBrain: Thank you. I start to get used to C.
22:54:52 <glx> was fun to trace this one reading the asm
22:56:28 <vvv444> glx: What was in that case?
22:56:54 <glx> order of function calls is undefined
22:57:48 <vvv444> Oh, well, indeed not nice. However, not as bad as compiler bug...
22:58:04 <glx> same goes for func() | func()
22:58:28 <vvv444> Well the classic example was foo(a++, a++, a++) :)
22:59:20 <vvv444> About or... I think C does define that A || B evaluate A first.
22:59:59 <ln> and doesn't evaluate B if not needed.
23:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> #5 0x0816a007 in RoadVehController (v=0x846f0a8) <- how can i now find out which vehicle this is ingame?
23:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a tram, but i have like 10 of those
23:14:32 <ln> does "print *v" show anything useful?
23:15:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i have to switch to the right context first
23:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> $1 = {<PoolItem<Vehicle, short unsigned int, (& _Vehicle_pool)>> = {
23:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> _vptr.PoolItem = 0x8281ec8, index = 7} [...]
23:19:37 <ln> doesn't look especially useful, but i haven't debugged vehicles
23:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Lohrstadt%20Transport,%203.%20Maer%201920.png <- the game crashes when this tram hits the "dead end" track behind the tram stop (where it's missing the turnaround track)
23:42:54 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by smatz :: r14458 trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp (2008-10-10 22:50:31 UTC)
23:42:55 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Fix [FS#2341](r14368): crash when there was a tram dead end after a station/tunnel/bridge (frosch123 and Rubidium)
23:43:06 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: ^^^^ should be fixed there
23:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar did not sync that yet, i'm afraid
23:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 14417 was the last sync, as far as i can tell
23:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> right, now it doesn't crash anymore. the tram just gets stuck without telling me...
continue to next day ⏵
