IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-09-14
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00:00:05 <TrueBrain> ha, useful table :)
00:00:33 <TrueBrain> no IE5 and IE5.5 ... :p
00:00:43 <Ammler> please, don't support those
00:00:53 <TrueBrain> it works as well as any other IE :p
00:01:20 <TrueBrain> the only 'problem' is the download box being too small
00:01:33 <TrueBrain> (and of course it ignoring several CSS1 properties)
00:01:55 <Ammler> I hope, you didn't need time to do it
00:02:00 <Ammler> as it would not be worth
00:02:18 <TrueBrain> well, it is worth it in my mind :) A site that looks identical on all browsers which support CSS :)
00:02:26 <TrueBrain> I mean, come on, that has to count for something ;)
00:02:45 <TrueBrain> people always claim that is not possible ;)
00:02:47 <Ammler> well, openttd.org has webstatistics
00:03:13 <Ammler> as you trashed sunos because of 0 downloads
00:03:21 <TrueBrain> Ammler: I never said trashed :)
00:03:30 <TrueBrain> it is just a low priority to move over :)
00:03:34 <Ammler> how many ie5 visitors did you have last month?
00:04:38 <TrueBrain> (well, that you didn't expect, did you? :))
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00:04:52 <Ammler> well, yes, and I don't believe
00:04:59 <TrueBrain> (unique vistors btw, IP filtered)
00:05:05 <TrueBrain> Ammler: no; Windows 98 users
00:05:08 <TrueBrain> (yes, we do have them)
00:05:38 <TrueBrain> 47000 FireFox users
00:05:49 <TrueBrain> (that all excluding my IP btw)
00:06:07 <TrueBrain> 13/Sep/2008:06:39:50 +0000
00:06:19 <TrueBrain> ah, tnx Rubidium, I was looking for that :p
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00:06:30 <TrueBrain> so, Ammler, you still think it is silly? :)
00:06:36 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD has a WEIRD userbase :p
00:06:49 <TrueBrain> does MSIE 1.5 exist? :p
00:06:59 <Rubidium> SmatZ: most likely Opera 8.04
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00:07:34 <TrueBrain> wait, my stats were off .. uniq doesn't sory
00:08:16 <TrueBrain> no, still the same stats for IE
00:08:28 <TrueBrain> 160k unique visitors today ...
00:08:49 <Rubidium> that doesn't quite make sense
00:09:00 <TrueBrain> that I was telling you
00:09:11 <TrueBrain> 6000 unique visitors, much better
00:09:20 <TrueBrain> ( | sort | uniq, not | uniq | sort ;))
00:09:57 <TrueBrain> so: 13 IE5.0, 15 IE5.5, 623 IE6, 955 IE7, 3000 FF
00:10:12 <Rubidium> although... with ~2000 stable downloads a day from SF...
00:11:21 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: today alone, 700 stable downlaods via binaries.openttd.org, 300 trunk downloads, of which 133 the latest nightly
00:14:16 <Ammler> our statistic seems broken
00:14:42 <TrueBrain> I am really suprised so many use < IE5.5 ...
00:17:42 <Ammler> well, it could also be opera
00:18:04 <Ammler> it did it in past at least
00:18:18 <Rubidium> well... #8, #13 and #14 are MSIE
00:21:55 <TrueBrain> what browser does Sun use?
00:22:21 <TrueBrain> is it only me, or is the new SF website in fact evne more unclear? :p
00:22:41 <TrueBrain> didn't know that was possible ... :p
00:22:51 <Ammler> 70% of the web is advertising...
00:24:04 <Rubidium> Ammler: really? Don't see much advertisement
00:25:25 <Ammler> top banner, 2 side boxes, foot banner
00:25:47 <Ammler> well, might be you are using ugly ad blocker
00:29:25 <Rubidium> oh, that might be it :)
00:30:04 <TrueBrain> 1000 visitors from Sun
00:30:11 <TrueBrain> I should hurry making that target available agani .. :p
00:30:27 <TrueBrain> against 2.2M Windows, and 0.4M Linux btw
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00:34:42 <Ammler> starting IE 5.5 takes ages :-)
00:37:04 <TrueBrain> I am trying to fix the links of awstats .. impossible ..
00:38:25 <SmatZ> does IE<3 exist? never seen that...
00:38:50 <Ammler> lol warning for cookies :-)
00:38:57 <SmatZ> I think I saw IE3 at Win95 once... but were there any older versions?
00:39:48 <Ammler> I have every old IE here...
00:40:30 <TrueBrain> let us know how the site looks ;)
00:41:12 <Ammler> was that pre CSS time?
00:41:27 <Ammler> it looks like the page with CSS off
00:43:14 <TrueBrain> well, that should be pretty viewable too ;)
00:45:24 <Ammler> nice skin of ie, btw :-)
00:46:12 <TrueBrain> yeah, it should look exactly like that :)
00:47:16 <Ammler> ie4 did also crash the 1. time
00:48:57 <TrueBrain> didn't know the word
00:48:59 <TrueBrain> wikipedia can be useful :p
00:49:23 <Ammler> ie4 won't work in my VM
00:49:41 <TrueBrain> I have IE5.0, 5.5 and 6.0 via wine, and I am happy with that ..
00:50:59 <TrueBrain> anyway, good night all
00:52:10 <TrueBrain> lol, who didn't believe me when I said it looked the same, and had to type the url in browsershots? :p
00:52:37 <ccfreak2k> "Microsoft originally released Internet Explorer 1.0 in August 1995 in two packages: at retail in Microsoft Plus! add-on for Windows 95 and via the simultaneous OEM release of Windows 95."
01:00:10 <Brianetta> openttd.org's CSS doesn't validate
01:00:56 <Boyinblue0> It would be very hard to get 100% validated code
01:02:08 <Brianetta> I manage on my web sites
01:02:27 <Brianetta> It's not like CSS has an ambiguous definition
01:03:17 <Boyinblue0> I find it difficult but i'm a noob when it comes to coding :P
01:05:14 <ccfreak2k> Yes, the CSS does indeed seem to be invalid.
01:05:20 <ccfreak2k> No more CSS valid badge.
01:06:53 <Brianetta> updates industries on my server
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01:11:42 <Ammler> hmm, how to write a tab with bash?
01:12:49 <TrueBrain> Ammler: add a real 'tab' ;)
01:12:56 <TrueBrain> Brianetta: did you check on what the validation failed? :)
01:13:09 <TrueBrain> hacks because of some STUPID browsers not supporting overflow: hidden ...
01:13:13 <TrueBrain> so it doesn't count in my book :)
01:14:03 <TrueBrain> (hehe, just kidding :))
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01:15:04 <Brianetta> TrueBrain: If you need hacks, use HTML, not XHTML
01:16:01 <Brianetta> XHTML 1.1 is so pure that IE *can't* view a validated page.
01:16:07 <Brianetta> I love that about it.
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01:38:29 <Belugas> like... we both are the only ones still awaken ;)
01:38:50 <Belugas> did new var gave you joy and happiness, Pikka?
01:39:30 <Brianetta> Is that var available in Patch too?
01:44:07 <Belugas> Brianetta, i doubt it has been implemented yet, but it wouldbe failry simple to do, i'd say. Note I have absolutely no idea on how to do in in Patch, to be onest
01:45:51 <Pikka> Belugas: not used it yet, but it will :)
01:47:46 <DaleStan> Belugas: If you mean house var 47, it's in, as of r2020.
01:49:23 <Belugas> wonderfull, DaleStan :D
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03:53:21 <Tekky> Hi, is there any developer online who is familiar with order_cmd.cpp?
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05:53:25 <DaleStan> Tekky: It is usually more useful to ask the real question.
05:55:24 <Tekky> yes, but I thought they would be all asleep now, anyway. So it seemed not worth explaining the problem if everyone is asleep :-)
05:55:56 <Tekky> Anyway, I have solved the problem in the mean time.
05:56:03 <DaleStan> Explain it anyway. Half the time, properly explaining the problem reveals the solution.
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07:52:48 <Forked> good morning, fellow addicts
07:57:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and you think this is funny for the 120th time?
08:08:59 <peter1138> Rubidium, although... should it not be cur->next rather than prev->next...?
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08:26:57 <Rubidium> peter1138: looks okay and it should use cur->next instead of prev->next
08:27:19 <Rubidium> or rather that'd make a bit more sense
08:43:03 *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred
08:47:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14317 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r13662) [FS#2298]: Order distance processing for conditional orders on ships treated v->orders as an array, and didn't use the correct next order.
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09:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i check that a file NOT exists? i only find examples for "file exists"...
09:33:14 <peter1138> Open the path in explorer and see if it's there.
09:33:22 <peter1138> Unless you want to be more specific...
09:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> in a shell script
09:33:46 <peter1138> if file exists... if ! file exists...
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10:16:21 <eQualizer> Didn't water used to have animation?
10:16:57 <Rubidium> you should enable animation
10:17:23 <eQualizer> Oh. Just look at that. :D
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10:18:34 <yorick> cheap wireless router...
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10:30:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14318 /trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2296]: OSK of the chat box did not get updated. This as the chatbox got a higher priority than the OSK instead of the usual other way around.
10:32:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r14319 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r10760): use operator delete when deleting an order, so order pool fills up a bit slower
10:33:23 <ln> ... what was used earlier, then?
10:33:54 <peter1138> "Give the item free"? What?
10:34:26 <peter1138> Rubidium, probably.
10:35:10 <peter1138> (Showing hexadecimals numbers to users? Who came up with that idea?)
10:37:00 <SmatZ> Rubidium: r2007 prints "0x'number'"
10:37:22 * SmatZ searches for hexnibbles...
10:38:52 <Rubidium> I reckon that'd mean "0-9a-f"
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10:39:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14320 /trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2299]: glitch when chatbox window is full and the window is scrolled (yorP)
10:40:08 <SmatZ> Rubidium: I mean, it prints "0xaabbccdd", while printf("%x") prints just aabbccdd
10:40:19 <SmatZ> + return buff + snprintf(buff, last - buff, "%x", (uint32)number);
10:40:35 <Rubidium> looking at an old diff, aren't you?
10:40:38 <SmatZ> but I will have a look what exactly it does, eg. if it doesn't ...
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10:42:27 <Rubidium> the opposite of what TTDP does ;)
10:42:32 <UbuntuNigger> GNAA declares boycott of all foods that make sperm taste bad
10:42:33 <UbuntuNigger> Washington, District of Columbia (USNS) - Gathered on the steps of the Justice Department, gay niggers worldwide announced their most ambitious ploy for political power to date, a boycott of all foods that make semen taste awful. GNAA president timecop led the rally with a pink megaphone, shouting over the noise of riot cops assembling in case the peaceful assembly turned violent.
10:42:33 <UbuntuNigger> "My friends," he lisped at the top of his lungs. "As America's - no, the world's - foremost consumers of sperm and without a doubt its greatest enjoyers and advocates, we plead - no, we demand - that these prostate poisons be eliminated from the modern diet." Around him, a surging throng of foamy devotees showed their approval with a shower of bodily fluids.
10:42:35 <UbuntuNigger> According to timecop, numerous studies prove that gay volunteers not only found that tobacco left a lingering moldy taste in semen, but that such commonplace items as coffee and multivitamin pills could make semen taste muddy and like insecticide, respectively. "These are intolerant, I mean, intolerable substances," timecop spluttered.
10:42:40 *** Rubidium sets mode: +b *!*dministra@*.160.160.201.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx
10:42:40 *** UbuntuNigger was kicked by Rubidium (UbuntuNigger)
10:44:37 <yorick> what does that spam for?
10:45:01 <SmatZ> Rubidium: TTDP prints uppercase, and including most significant zeros
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10:46:44 <SmatZ> but I am not sure how to pass number of characters to print... maybe in upper bytes of that 'int64', or use different formatting character for that?
10:50:53 <Rubidium> Alberth: yeah... too bad that's not what we're looking for
10:51:24 <Mortal> wouldn't that be 0x%08x?
10:51:57 <Mortal> otherwise 8 would indicate... uhh
10:52:27 <SmatZ> Mortal: yes, 0x%08X ... for dword ... but 0x%04X for word and 0x%02X for byte
10:53:44 <Mortal> yep, my point was that alberth was missing the padding char identifier, 0
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10:55:10 <Rubidium> SmatZ: but does it matter whether to draw the zeros or not?
10:55:31 <Alberth> Mortal: apparently, use 8 characters to print number (and prepend with SPACE if less needed). Very ugly indeed.
10:57:47 <SmatZ> Rubidium: maybe it can be done without leading zeros until someone reports that :)
10:58:27 <SmatZ> specs don't say whether or not to print those zeros
10:59:27 <Rubidium> exactly, so we're following the specs
10:59:53 <Mortal> yeah Alberth, the zero is the padding character... if none chosen, space is default
11:00:19 <frosch123> the uint64 dparam would have enough space to store it as string :p
11:01:15 <Mortal> Rubidium, it's 8 bytes
11:01:20 <frosch123> except the '0x' and the terminating '\0' (when 8 chars)
11:01:37 <Rubidium> so it isn't a string that gets stored
11:02:44 <Mortal> the memory isn't something you just dump things on
11:02:52 <Mortal> it's a series of characters
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11:37:14 <Alberth> Rubidium: I'd like to discuss FS#1905 (resizing widgets) to make it move forward again. Is now a good time?
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12:04:55 <Rubidium> Alberth: I've not have time to look at that huge diff in depth
12:05:18 <Rubidium> and I'm not 100% sure that moving to that scheme magically solves all the problems
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12:05:38 <Rubidium> as you can't easily determine the minimum size of quite a few widgets
12:05:57 <Rubidium> e.g. the widget showing the speed/destination of a vehicle
12:06:14 <Rubidium> and I wouldn't have a clue how to tell to invalidate a single widget
12:06:29 <Rubidium> e.g. update the widget showing he speed/destination of a vehicle
12:13:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
12:15:37 <TrueBrain> that will be 5 euroes
12:17:03 <Alberth> Give me a bank account number, and I'll send you some money
12:17:13 <TrueBrain> YEAH!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111oneone
12:17:51 <Alberth> Everything all-right TrueBrain?
12:19:01 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: if you give a link, give it in english :p
12:19:29 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: it's in English, isn't it? :)
12:19:35 <Ammler> that is the page with SmatZ's private account :P
12:20:11 <Alberth> I didn't state which number I wanted ;-)
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12:33:48 <yorick> vehicles don't overtake on intersections, and they like to brake down exactly there
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12:35:49 <Alberth> Rubidium: The general concept is that a widget knows how to obtain its minimal size. It can either compute that in some way, or you can simply give it a size eg when you want to display only part of a string.
12:37:05 <Alberth> In the current diff, it is kind of fixed (you'd have to derive a new class to change it). In the mean time I have found a way to make it easier to change.
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12:40:00 <Alberth> W.r.t. updating, call BaseWidget::Invalidate(const Window*)
12:47:08 <Ammler> TrueBrain: will you fix the green title bar?
12:47:57 <TrueBrain> what is there to fix
12:48:00 <TrueBrain> there is nothing broken about it ..
12:48:18 <TrueBrain> as it is intended to do
12:48:23 <TrueBrain> took me pretty long to make it cut ...
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12:49:09 <Ammler> makes only sense, if there is a box on the right side
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13:23:08 <Ammler> is there a "easy" way to get the 3. field from the finger file?
13:31:09 <Alberth> Ammler: cut -f3 < versions.txt
13:32:01 * Brianetta still parses the web site
13:36:55 <eQualizer> This is stupid. I can build a railway station on top of another railway station, but I can't build a railway station on top of a plain tracks? :(
13:41:03 <SmatZ> eQualizer: it's not stupid :-P it's designed this way
13:46:17 <Phantasm> Is 64 bit version for vista any faster than 32 bit version?
13:47:56 <murray> Phantasm: you should read up on what 64bit vs 32bit actually is
13:48:15 <murray> to understand if performance will improve
13:48:53 <peter1138> More available registers can improve performance.
13:49:18 <Phantasm> I know what it is. But the performance increase depends on the implementation.. On many cases 64 bit will give performance benefit over 32 bit, but if the implementation isn't properly done for 64 bit, but just a quick tweak, it might be slower than 32 bit one.
13:50:05 <Phantasm> Like the case with FFDShow Tryouts.. 64 bit version is slower than 32 bit version. So, has anyone done any benchmarks to see if there is difference?
13:50:44 <FauxFaux> Performance also depends on processor.
13:52:56 <Phantasm> I don't think there is much difference between intel and amd processors in that case.
13:53:13 <TrueBrain> as long as you don't want to compare IA64 ...
13:53:32 <Phantasm> Not like anyone uses itanium on home computers.
13:53:48 <TrueBrain> very true :) But you were generalizing Intel CPUs ;)
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13:54:00 <Rubidium> yeah, for that we first have to compile zlib/libfreetype and libpng ;)
13:54:06 <Phantasm> The implementations for the AMD64 and EM64T are nearly identical, so those should go side by side on performance difference from 64.
13:54:16 <TrueBrain> Phantasm: on that I can agree :)
13:54:17 <Rubidium> and I wonder whether there's directx for IA64
13:54:58 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: GCC can produce IA64 (well, sort of)
13:55:01 <Phantasm> TrueBrain: I never generalized intel cpus. The only generalization I did was between AMD64 and EM64T.
13:55:39 <Phantasm> So, no-one has done any performance tests between 32 bit and 64 bit versions?
13:57:46 <Rubidium> just not the one you're interested in
13:58:13 <Rubidium> 64 bits compile is *much* slower than 32 bits
13:58:25 <Phantasm> Well, are there any stability issues with the 64 bit version?
13:58:50 <Rubidium> haven't seen any bugs yet
13:59:01 <TrueBrain> I am running 64bit linux since r100 or so, it is pretty stable :p
13:59:05 <Phantasm> Ok, so getting 64 bit version should be safe.
14:00:00 <Phantasm> I suppose I'll get the 64 bit one when Belugas gets the industry spawn fix on big maps there.
14:00:06 <Rubidium> first win64 compile I can find is of August 12th 2006
14:01:04 <SmatZ> on amd64, crypto is ~3 times faster (openssl speed)
14:01:19 <SmatZ> talking about linux of course...
14:01:35 <SmatZ> more memory consumption (+>50%)
14:01:42 <Phantasm> On linux ssh file transfer is like 10 times faster than that on windows.. ;P
14:01:56 <Phantasm> Not sure if there just aren't any good programs to do it for windows..
14:02:09 <SmatZ> and speed test I did showed OTTD runs faster when compiled as 32bit binary
14:02:19 <TrueBrain> I wonder if there are any good problems in general for Windows (Microsoft bashing, I love it)
14:02:20 <SmatZ> maybe because of lower memory/cache needs
14:02:40 <SmatZ> but for example, 32bit blitters run faster on 64bit machine because of more registers
14:03:25 <Alberth> TrueBrain: 1 page Word documents :)
14:03:45 <frosch123> [16:03] <Phantasm> On linux ssh file transfer is like 10 times faster than that on windows.. ;P <- if you want to profile the speed of your filesystem, grf2html is a good choose
14:04:30 <Phantasm> frosch123: What does filer transfer over ssh have anything to do with filesystem speed?
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14:05:36 <frosch123> when you copy a lot of small files, the filesystem has a strong impact on performance
14:06:17 <Phantasm> Of course, but that case is clearly the cpu usage of ssh.
14:06:22 <Phantasm> On windows it is insanely high.
14:06:49 <Phantasm> 2.5 GHz opteron can only do 3 MB/s on 32 bit windows with winscp.
14:07:11 <frosch123> ammler complained somewhen about grf2html being slow, while he was using nfs
14:08:46 <frosch123> Phantasm: don't know I only have 100 mb networks
14:09:40 <Phantasm> frosch123: 100 Mbps network can do more than 3 MB/s.
14:10:08 <frosch123> yeah, I guess it is a bit early in the morning :p
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14:31:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14321 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp table/control_codes.h): -Add: support for newgrfs printing bytes/words/dwords as hexadecimals.
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14:34:59 <yorick> should add support for grf string-by-name overriding
15:07:20 <peter1138> grf string-by-name?
15:08:50 <welshdragon> peter1138, why does your nightly not use YAPP?
15:08:57 <Alberth> Is there somewhere a list about which StringID's are used for what purpose (and which belong together etc)?
15:10:42 <Alberth> welshdragon: What nightly are you talking about? both cargodest branch and trunk versions have YAPP afaik
15:11:44 * Sacro wants to restart Brianetta's nightly
15:12:24 <welshdragon> my setting show YAPF is used
15:14:00 <Pikka> welshdragon, YAPP is active in peter's server...
15:14:39 <Sacro> what is with all the capitalisation on the OpenTTD.org homepage
15:14:47 <Sacro> please lowercase open source and clone
15:15:33 <Alberth> Should have YAPP, was introduced before that revision
15:15:51 * welshdragon could offer openttd.org a welsh translation
15:16:20 <Alberth> Sacro: Created using the OpenTTD intro screen as guide?
15:16:55 <Sacro> but it shouldn't have open and source capitalised
15:17:01 <Sacro> we are not Germans afterall
15:18:03 <Sacro> and there is no link to the nightlies archive :(
15:18:22 <welshdragon> Sacro, have you found peter1138's nightly server?
15:18:28 <Sacro> "If ANY of the checksums doesn't match" <- don't
15:18:39 <DorpsGek> Sacro: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 16 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> I wonder if there are any good problems in general for Windows (Microsoft bashing, I love it)
15:19:10 <Sacro> welshdragon: i need a binary
15:19:24 <Sacro> for some reason binaries.openttd.org doesn't have binaries
15:19:39 <welshdragon> TrueBrain, it would be hard to ignore him in 8 days
15:19:43 <Sacro> TrueBrain: just some minor modifications needed on the home page
15:19:56 <welshdragon> he could just run round to mine and pinch my wireless :o
15:20:16 <Sacro> welshdragon: pff, there's other rooms4u wifi points nearer
15:20:45 <welshdragon> pff, but i would have food
15:20:56 <TrueBrain> Sacro: 'any of the checksums' is singular, so it should be: doesn't
15:21:21 <Sacro> if one of the checksums doesn't match
15:21:26 <Sacro> if any of the checksums don't match
15:21:35 <Sacro> which can return >1 results
15:21:39 <welshdragon> peter1138, what's your server address?
15:22:38 <TrueBrain> "any as a pronoun. When used as a pronoun, any can take either a singular or plural verb depending on how it is construed: Any of these books is suitable (that is, any one). But are any (that is, some) of them available?"
15:23:12 <TrueBrain> in this case the former is what is meant
15:23:20 <Sacro> i strongly dislike the usage of doesn't with any
15:23:29 <TrueBrain> it is what the dictonary says
15:23:36 <TrueBrain> so either change the dictonary ...
15:24:10 <Sacro> perhaps swtich any for some
15:24:18 <Sacro> if some of the checksums don't match
15:24:20 <TrueBrain> no, 'some' would be very silly
15:24:27 <TrueBrain> 'one of the' is what is ment
15:24:39 <TrueBrain> 'some' is like: one can fail, but if 2 fail, you are in trouble
15:24:45 * Sacro prods Brianetta and DaleStan
15:24:51 <Alberth> 'at least one of the' :)
15:25:15 <TrueBrain> but, according to the dictonary, the current says exactly the same
15:25:33 <Sacro> i think a comma is needed too
15:25:38 <TrueBrain> and sorry if you don't like that Sacro, but one can't argue with dictonaries...
15:25:45 <Ammler> as the filename has a "trunk"
15:26:18 <Rubidium> Ammler: take a look at the php script I made for Zuu
15:26:19 <TrueBrain> Ammler: the 'trunk' part is always the last part of the 'nightlies/trunk'
15:29:42 <Ammler> Thanks, Rubidium, I do.
15:29:47 <Sacro> TrueBrain: but dictionaries alter according to common usage
15:30:05 <TrueBrain> Sacro: sure, keep on trying, maybe you find a loophole in the dictonary which says you are right
15:30:13 <Rubidium> Sacro: that is not true
15:30:14 <Sacro> TrueBrain: also, the sentance is too long
15:30:32 <Sacro> comma between us and or
15:30:40 <Sacro> didn't come from us, or got broken
15:31:14 <TrueBrain> of all the places, you want it to place there .. lol
15:31:24 <Sacro> If ANY of the checksums don't match the file you downloaded then it means it might not have come from us, or got broken during transport and might possibly contain dangerous modifications.
15:34:50 <TrueBrain> Sacro: again, wrong, not according to the dictonary
15:35:14 <TrueBrain> I try to find a website which tells you when to use a comma in english, but I cant find one which shows why in this case there shouldn't be one at that position ..
15:35:17 <TrueBrain> only examples with 'and'
15:35:42 <Sacro> TrueBrain: because you can't say the whole sentence in one breath
15:35:51 <TrueBrain> haha, yeah, that is the rule for comma use
15:35:58 <Sacro> i'd possibly put one after transport too
15:36:03 <Sacro> as that part of the sentance can be missed
15:36:09 <TrueBrain> you can't put commas randomly in a setence, because you feel like
15:36:12 <TrueBrain> there are rules for that :)
15:36:37 <TrueBrain> that part of the sentence for sure cannot be missed
15:37:04 <TrueBrain> okay, in your opinion, sure, but that is not what the intention of the sentence is
15:37:08 <Sacro> because you can skip over the "or got broken during transport" and the sentence still makes sense
15:37:14 <TrueBrain> both 'not from us' as 'broken during transport' are equal important
15:37:25 <TrueBrain> therefor, the right part is not a sub-sentence of the whole
15:37:31 <Sacro> yes, but is between commas and not brackets
15:37:38 <Sacro> without altering the meaning
15:37:40 <TrueBrain> I can put a comme after every word
15:37:47 <Sacro> if it is in brackets then it is safe to be ignored
15:37:50 <TrueBrain> but okay, waste of my time ..
15:39:23 <orudge> er, right, apparently I'm needed to prove somebody right
15:39:25 <orudge> what is it that needs proving?
15:39:42 <orudge> [16:18:28] <Sacro> "If ANY of the checksums doesn't match" <- don't <-- he is correct
15:39:52 <orudge> if one of them doesn't, if any of them don't
15:39:57 <TrueBrain> orudge: then I too suggest you find a dictonary ;)
15:40:28 <orudge> what does the dictionary say?
15:40:29 <Sacro> TrueBrain: a dictionary changes according to common usage
15:40:38 <TrueBrain> [17:22] <TrueBrain> "any as a pronoun. When used as a pronoun, any can take either a singular or plural verb depending on how it is construed: Any of these books is suitable (that is, any one). But are any (that is, some) of them available?"
15:40:58 <TrueBrain> but then again, the sentence clearly shows Rubidium once in his life did some Latin :)
15:41:01 <TrueBrain> Sacro: blablablabla
15:41:03 <TrueBrain> really, that is bull
15:41:18 <orudge> well, nevertheless, it still looks wrong ;)
15:41:27 <Sacro> it feels wrong too, it grates when i read it
15:41:30 <TrueBrain> orudge: on that, I agree; but looking wrong doesn't make it wrong :)
15:41:45 <Sacro> the language would tend towards the usage that feels best
15:42:35 <TrueBrain> Sacro: if that were true, the end would be lost :)
15:43:19 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: "language that doesn't feel good to Sacro does feel good to me"
15:44:00 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you miss a comma!! :p
15:44:01 *** Rexxars has joined #openttd
15:45:06 <orudge> anyway, something different I would pick a bone about
15:45:29 <orudge> "OpenTTD is an Open Source Clone of Transport Tycoon Deluxe". I seem to recall it used to be the case that we would prefer to not refer to OpenTTD as a "clone".
15:45:36 <orudge> Not quite sure what you would call it in a snappy little sentence, though
15:45:39 <TrueBrain> orudge: www.openttd.org, if you have the time :)
15:45:39 <yorick> just got a cargodest assertion
15:45:41 <orudge> an open source "version"?
15:45:45 <Sacro> and open source shouldn't be capitalised
15:45:51 *** Frostregen has joined #openttd
15:45:57 <orudge> TrueBrain: what about it? I'm looking at it just now :)
15:46:13 <Sacro> Wikipedia calls it an "open source game engine"
15:46:19 <Sacro> but I think it's surpassed that now
15:46:27 <yorick> how do I print out a specific line for all files in a dir?
15:47:31 <planetmaker> grep, tail & head are your friend, I'd say
15:47:39 <orudge> hmm, I would also suggest, minor little things, "Learn How to Play" -> "Learn how to play"; and similar capitalisation issues, at least if this is meant to be en_GB, which according to the flag it is ;)
15:48:01 <orudge> the site looks good overall
15:48:30 <Sacro_> orudge: yes, router is fubar
15:48:40 <Sacro_> i think someone is bittorrenting and maxing out the connections
15:48:54 <TrueBrain> orudge: please take the 'clone' part to the other devs, if you like
15:49:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r14322 /trunk/src/waypoint.cpp: -Fix (r10368): possible assert when renaming removed waypoint
15:49:32 <TrueBrain> about those capitals, don't book-titles carry capitalisation like that in en_GB?
15:49:33 <orudge> TrueBrain: if I can be bothered, I may argue it later on or something
15:49:49 <TrueBrain> (truly wondering btw :))
15:50:02 <orudge> but Headings Like These are generally regarded as an Americanism
15:50:07 <orudge> one which may be creeping in here a bit more often
15:50:08 <TrueBrain> in naming of series and stuff I see that a lot ..
15:50:20 <orudge> certainly, in academic settings, one will tend not to capitalise everything
15:50:24 <orudge> proper nouns would be capitalised, of course
15:50:27 <TrueBrain> hehe, fair enough :)
15:52:01 <peter1138> It Is Really Quite Annoying When Some New Person On The Forum Believes Every First Letter Should Be Capitalised Like This.
15:52:11 <peter1138> And we shouldn't do it either.
15:53:38 <TrueBrain> orudge: will change it :)
15:53:48 <orudge> speaking of such matters
15:53:55 <Sacro_> orudge: the top line looks too long
15:54:32 <orudge> well, I thought it looked alright. Is that justification enough? ;)
15:54:35 <orudge> (yes, I know what you meant :p)
15:54:40 <orudge> not sure if justification would make it look better
15:55:01 <Sacro_> i know you'd take that meaning of justification :P
15:55:40 <Sacro_> cp readme.txt openttd.cfg && ./openttd really breaks it
15:56:07 <TrueBrain> rm -rf / && reboot really breaks
15:56:28 <TrueBrain> (please never execute the above as root)
15:56:29 <welshdragon> i like orudge's better, sorry TrueBrain
15:56:36 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: some linuxes are fool-proof against rm /
15:56:39 <yorick> planetmaker: how should head & tail help me?
15:56:41 <Sacro_> TrueBrain: it won't reboot
15:56:47 <Sacro_> as /sbin/reboot will have gone
15:56:48 <TrueBrain> welshdragon: why sorry? :)
15:56:58 <welshdragon> i know you worked hard on it
15:57:02 <orudge> & instead of && would likely work
15:57:09 <orudge> as it'd probably start reboot before it gets deleted
15:57:20 <orudge> it'd then be a race to see how much rm gets to delete while it shuts down
15:57:39 <planetmaker> yorick: depends very much upon what you mean with 'specific line'. If you always look for the last line, tail is your friend.
15:57:50 <yorick> I don't look for the last line
15:57:55 <yorick> I look for the 2008th line
15:58:00 <TrueBrain> welshdragon: so it should stay how it is? :p Hehe :)
15:58:10 <planetmaker> yorik: then use head
15:58:13 <TrueBrain> welshdragon: but tnx anyway ;) And as I said, I agree with orudge too ;)
15:58:19 <Ammler> yorick: planetmaker, up for another competition for new newgrf gui :P
15:58:26 <welshdragon> TrueBrain, it does need modifications
15:58:57 <planetmaker> Ammler: sorry, no :S
15:59:21 <yorick> rgrep -n "assert" * | grep ":2008:" :)
15:59:43 <planetmaker> yorick: cat 'file' | head --lines=2008 | tail --lines=1
16:01:27 <ln> am i seeing useless use of cat
16:01:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r14323 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r14064): forgot a return...
16:02:01 <planetmaker> but you might want to replace cat by some command of your choice.
16:02:59 *** Clinton has joined #openttd
16:03:31 <Clinton> when do stations start losing cargo due to lack of service?
16:03:32 <yorick> that is not going to work
16:03:47 <yorick> and it is a useless cat :)
16:07:38 <Sacro_> peter1138: what happened to /o/ ?
16:09:07 <yorick> assert in DoClearTownHouseHelper
16:09:18 <yorick> most likely because I built a station in the middle of a town
16:11:09 <yorick> I got a reproducing save, but it's made with a cargodest updated to current trunk and patched with improved breakdowns
16:11:26 <yorick> none of them should call the DoClearTownHouseHelper
16:12:24 <planetmaker> yorick: then load it in an unmodified trunk version. None of them should modify the savegame structure AFAIK
16:12:45 <yorick> improved breakdowns adds a patch setting
16:13:08 <yorick> and cargodest does modify the savegame structure AFAIK
16:13:22 <planetmaker> last time I checked the latter wasn't true
16:13:35 <yorick> then how does it store cargo destinations
16:13:46 <yorick> and patch settings to select if cargo has destinations?
16:14:34 <planetmaker> dunno. Maybe it changed. I only remember Celestar saying that it doesn't save in the savegame.
16:14:50 <yorick> the destinations, maybe
16:14:54 <yorick> but it does save patches
16:15:19 <planetmaker> bad luck for you then :)
16:15:26 <planetmaker> Reproduce your error in trunk.
16:18:09 <yorick> I first need to get it to load without assert
16:18:23 * yorick replaces assert by return
16:21:42 <Brianetta> [16:20] <TrueBrain> Sacro: 'any of the checksums' is singular, so it should be: doesn't
16:21:45 <Brianetta> TrueBrain: That's plural
16:22:17 <TrueBrain> Brianetta: and for you too, oh boy, I hate repeating myself: get a dictonary
16:22:43 <Brianetta> TrueBrain: I have several.
16:22:52 <Brianetta> Which would you have me consult?
16:23:25 <TrueBrain> [17:40] <TrueBrain> [17:22] <TrueBrain> "any as a pronoun. When used as a pronoun, any can take either a singular or plural verb depending on how it is construed: Any of these books is suitable (that is, any one). But are any (that is, some) of them available?"
16:23:58 <TrueBrain> with a singular verb
16:24:54 <TrueBrain> that talks about the nouns .. that we agree on is plural (hence, the 'checksum_s_')
16:26:48 <yorick> why would one use a singular verb with a plural noun?
16:27:00 <TrueBrain> yorick: it happens in more situations
16:27:15 <TrueBrain> yorick: yup :) Languages are such funny things .. even in Dutch you have it
16:27:35 <TrueBrain> to name one very widely known :)
16:27:48 <yorick> that is a singular noun...
16:28:05 <TrueBrain> ah, like that, yes, you are right
16:29:47 <frosch123> google: 7.940.000 for "do any of these", 604.000 for "does any of these". So does anyone want to check them semantically?
16:29:48 *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
16:30:17 <Sacro> frosch123: "do any of these" is a question
16:30:35 <Sacro> "does any of these" is a horrible bit of language
16:30:41 <frosch123> yeah, but does that change the simular/plural issue?
16:30:57 <Sacro> i mean "does any of these downloads have viris"
16:31:11 <Sacro> Does any of these brand names for memory cards sound familiar to you?
16:31:30 <Sacro> well, that's just my accent, i wouldn't say it was proper English
16:31:32 <TrueBrain> Sacro: that in fact is correct ;)
16:31:43 <TrueBrain> well, according to the dictonary that is :p
16:31:44 <Brianetta> Sacro: Barely; "do" is better
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16:32:03 <Brianetta> TrueBrain: Put the dictionary away and get a grammar guid
16:32:10 <Sacro> Brianetta: yes, this is the grammer arguement
16:32:45 <Sacro> TrueBrain: just cos the dictionary says it is correct doesn't mean it is proper
16:32:58 <welshdragon> grammer is the dyslexic way of saying things
16:33:00 <TrueBrain> Brianetta: my dictonary is so nice to include a big grammar part :)
16:33:16 <TrueBrain> Sacro: my dict says it is correct english, it indeed doesn't say a thing what is commonly used
16:33:48 <Sacro> TrueBrain: you should just ask people who speak English on a daily basis
16:33:52 <Sacro> and who grew up with it :
16:34:06 <Brianetta> Or those who took an English qualification
16:34:12 <TrueBrain> Sacro: so you think websites should contain the english that is spoken? Cool ...
16:34:18 <welshdragon> Sacro, true english is correct, it just varies
16:34:22 <Sacro> TrueBrain: English as she is spoken!
16:34:58 <welshdragon> Brianetta, agreed, i have a GCSE grade B in Engkish, coukdn't be arsed to do an A Level in it
16:35:18 <TrueBrain> still, it amazes me that you all argue with what all dictonaries say .. so you guys really claim to know English better than a dictonary .. or better: the grammar part of a dictonary ..
16:35:24 <Rubidium> Saclo: yes, Inglish as it ish spoken by many people in fal awai countlies
16:35:59 <TrueBrain> I myself don't always agree with a Dutch dictonary says how things should be used ... nevertheless, in an official document, I have no choice but the follow what it says
16:36:49 <welshdragon> Sacro, be grateful it wasn't written in lolspeak or textspeak, and that at least 90% of the website is gramatically correct
16:37:31 <Sacro> TrueBrain: we write the dictionaries
16:37:41 <TrueBrain> sure, in your world you do
16:38:11 <peter1138> There is also American versus English grammar.
16:38:27 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: he's right, that's why there is NO official English (but a lot of "dialects") and there is an official Dutch
16:38:29 <yorick> there is also dutch versus English grammar
16:38:57 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I am so happy with ABN :) Oh wait .. AN nowedays .. :p
16:39:21 *** peter1138 sets mode: +b *!*Yorick@*.adsl.wanadoo.nl
16:39:21 *** yorick was kicked by peter1138 (There is also kickban versus bankick)
16:40:52 <Rubidium> TrueBrain, as in: In the NL/BE the correct spelling is governed by some government committee, whereas the English dictionaries! are trying to keep as "close" as possible to what is used. So if enough people start writing English in 1337 that'll become the English of the dictionaries.
16:41:34 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: hmm, didn't know that :) Although nowedays Dutch tends to walk that way too ....
16:41:39 <TrueBrain> 'googlen' as a verb, pfff
16:41:56 <orudge> quite, "google" has made it into the Oxford English Dictionary too
16:42:02 <orudge> Google themselves of course don't want this
16:42:09 <orudge> as they don't want their trademark to go the way of "hoover"
16:42:13 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: partly... that is put there by the committee
16:42:17 <Sacro> orudge: nowt much, sup wit' you?
16:42:22 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: agree'd, still .. blah!
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16:42:43 <eekee> English used to be... well, The Queens English was taught in schools, but it differed enough from the daily usage of many classes that it was a bit silly
16:42:51 <Rubidium> ah well, my lovely English dictionary lists smilies and some texting-language
16:42:59 <Rubidium> as well as words like Zuyderzee
16:43:02 <TrueBrain> Yeggstry: can you please make your connection more stable, or leave this channel till it does? (no offense meant, but you are leaving/joining for the last few hours ...)
16:43:55 <Sacro> tell frostregen the same
16:43:56 *** welshdragon has left #openttd
16:44:03 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
16:44:48 * welshdragon considers proving a point, started doing so, but then decided against it
16:45:03 * welshdragon hungers for food, and wanders off to make tea
16:45:08 <Sacro> welshdragon: this is not #tycoon
16:45:19 <Sacro> #openttd is serious business
16:45:38 <welshdragon> Sacro, do shut up, i'd accept that from TrueBrain
16:45:58 <orudge> why the conflict all of a sudden?
16:46:09 * orudge may have missed something
16:46:09 <Sacro> orudge: our IRQ's have matched :(
16:46:18 <orudge> if you two have a personal conflict, please don't fight it out in here or on #tycoon
16:46:33 <TrueBrain> but walk a few houses and fight it out there or something
16:46:37 <orudge> Sacro: ah, it's been a while since I've had to deal with an IRQ conflict :)
16:46:37 <Sacro> ooh. my opensuse iso has downloaded
16:46:38 <Yeggstry> TrueBrain are you important here?
16:46:54 <orudge> Yeggstry: you're not Felipewhatsit, are you?
16:46:54 * Sacro wonders if these floppies still work
16:46:57 * orudge finds the appropriate qdb
16:47:13 <TrueBrain> Yeggstry: no, just annoyed by the random people timing out lately :p
16:47:22 <planetmaker> Yeggstry: as his nick tells: the only true brain out here :P
16:47:27 <orudge> TrueBrain: this is the part where you time out
16:47:30 <orudge> and it ends up being hilarious
16:47:33 <planetmaker> all others are just clones :P
16:47:34 <TrueBrain> Yeggstry: but I am glad there is someone on the other side :) Mostly it are just people idling here ...
16:47:50 <Yeggstry> that and the fact that you set my highlight off :P
16:48:24 <Yeggstry> for your information, I believe Virgin Media was playing up this morning, and I just had to reboot my machine twice coz my mic is playing up (uninstall then reinstall of drivers)
16:48:39 <TrueBrain> :) Then it is okay ;)
16:48:53 <Yeggstry> I'm not a spam bot if that's what you're worried about :P
16:49:11 <Sacro> hmm, only have TTO discs 2 and 4
16:49:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14324 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#2241]: free any blocks that a helicopter may have on an oilrig when the helicopter gets forcefully removed (bankruptcy). For other airports this isn't needed as they can't be used by multiple companies.
16:51:11 <TrueBrain> tt-forums has its own qdb? Lol :)
16:51:31 <orudge> although there are a few #openttd quotes there, too
16:55:13 *** peter1138 sets mode: -b *!*Yorick@*.adsl.wanadoo.nl
16:55:59 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
16:56:02 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b *!*Yorick@*.adsl.wanadoo.nl
16:56:05 <TrueBrain> he just pissed me off in a PM :p
16:56:06 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o TrueBrain
16:57:12 <Brianetta> We live in the rabbit-fornicating Britonic island of sodomy?
16:57:21 <orudge> according to a certain Dutchman
16:57:39 <Brianetta> Ah yes. His voice, your face.
16:57:51 <welshdragon> orudge, i have seen a few #openttd quotes in there
16:58:16 <Brianetta> As long as there aren't any #openttdcoop ones...
16:58:45 <TrueBrain> lucky enough glx isn't here
16:58:50 <TrueBrain> talking about which .. where IS glx?
16:58:50 *** Frostregen has joined #openttd
17:00:13 <orudge> an e-mail from Darkvater
17:00:36 <TrueBrain> and does he have anything interesting to say? :p
17:00:48 <orudge> let me download what he linked to and see if it is interesting :p
17:01:25 <ln> "please have a look at this interesting exe file"
17:02:53 <planetmaker> ln: :P in my on re-boot always clean virtual box it wouldn't do much harm unless it knows how to break out of vmware :)
17:04:22 <orudge> not finished watching it yet, but it seems interested enough
17:04:37 <Rubidium> ah, he did actually succeed in fixing the tool to properly parse our updated repository :)
17:05:15 <TrueBrain> I like the background sound ;)
17:06:52 * orudge shall stick a link on tt-forums
17:06:56 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
17:07:09 <orudge> and an flv version for those too lazy to download the avi
17:07:55 <orudge> hmm, newhouses was September 2006
17:08:13 <TrueBrain> for me the reverse .. I was suprised newmap was SO long ago ..
17:08:53 <peter1138> orudge, it was in a branch for a long time, I think.
17:09:30 <TrueBrain> orudge: very cool :)
17:09:57 <Zuu> TrueBrain: The changes.log file seam to not be included in nightly releases anymore (r14300 is the last version mentioned in the changes.log I got from 12:th september)
17:10:30 <Zuu> I've downloaded r14316 win32 .zip to confirm that the file changes.log is no more included.
17:10:33 <TrueBrain> Zuu: it indeed is no longer in the compressed archives, if that is what you mean
17:11:04 <TrueBrain> that is because we completely switched to 'make bundle', which does not include the file
17:11:13 <TrueBrain> was it useful, to have that file included?
17:11:13 <Zuu> My tool use that file to display the changes form last update.
17:12:06 <TrueBrain> in the dir of the files, /changelog.txt
17:12:14 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: should it be included in the packages?
17:14:32 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
17:14:37 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b *!*Yorick@*.adsl.wanadoo.nl
17:14:53 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o TrueBrain
17:15:25 <Rubidium> adding changes.log (as we already have a changelog.txt) seems to make stuff more inconsistent
17:15:47 <Zuu> but changelog.txt is for last stable.
17:15:53 <Rubidium> fetching the correct changelog.txt from the server should be fairly easy
17:16:03 <Yeggstry> apologies in advance TrueBrain, I have to reboot again :P
17:16:11 <TrueBrain> Yeggstry: you are forgiven ;)
17:16:59 <Zuu> Fetching the changelog.txt from the server means that I need to change my client/server protocol and also make a new client release for 2.0.
17:17:30 <Zuu> Just puting out a new client takes 1-2 hours.
17:18:03 <Rubidium> but it'll make the releases and nightlies/whatever work *exactly* the same
17:18:13 <Rubidium> thus less code, less maintainance, etc.
17:18:40 <Zuu> You are talking from your point of view are you?
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17:19:25 <Zuu> All nightlies/whatever included changes.txt before, didn't they?
17:19:50 <Rubidium> only nightlies and IIRC not all of them
17:20:02 <Rubidium> so custom compiles/releases didn't contain them
17:20:37 <TrueBrain> Zuu: changes.log was added manual by me, for certain packages only
17:20:51 <TrueBrain> was more something that wasn't removed a long time ago ;)
17:21:32 <TrueBrain> ('manual' as in: I bypassed the default system .. I bypasses even 'make bundle' ;))
17:22:46 <Zuu> I hope you understand that at the moment I don't like it as it puts quite lot of work for me...
17:23:10 <Zuu> But yea I understand it's not my decision...
17:23:49 <TrueBrain> more a problem that I have no clue how to insert changes.log in the current situation :)
17:23:50 <Rubidium> nobody likes it when they need to change they progs when someone changed something
17:23:54 <TrueBrain> (well, without hacking it again :p)
17:24:14 <TrueBrain> Zuu: on the positive side, that shouldn't happen again, as now we follow the 'official' way ;)
17:24:28 <Rubidium> however... now everything (that includes releases and custom builds) are done in exactly the same way instead of 3 different ways
17:24:30 <Zuu> As long as the official way remains the same ;)
17:25:19 <Rubidium> which means that supporting releases/custom builds/nightlies needs much less code (thus less maintainance)
17:25:33 <Rubidium> though you have a little more work at the beginning
17:28:40 <Kasceh> Is it possible to remove a company?
17:29:04 <Zuu> My server part was built up around the old system where you get the version, a string, and then you using this string can compare it to the string the client send and generate download URL from it, without having the result from the rev-file/finger, now things have changed so at the moment it need to make two requests to finger which is not good, as the round trip time adds to the computation time. With the old structure, addi
17:29:04 <Zuu> ng a function to get the changes.log URL means one more round trip time. So you see, I really need to choose an whole different approach which I know will take time...
17:29:45 <Zuu> A hack to solve it would be to change GetFile to cache the result to disk, which might be good to improve the preformance anyway.
17:29:52 <Kasceh> Lol thanks for wiping out my question...
17:29:54 <Kasceh> Is it possible to remove a company?
17:30:15 <TrueBrain> Zuu: the script Rubidium created for you, does the caching .. well, sort of :)
17:30:27 <TrueBrain> but even the website caches the file for 5 minutes, to avoid unneeded calls
17:30:44 <Ammler> Kasceh: wiki.openttd.org (reset_company)
17:31:23 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Yes, but when added to my structure I call that function and extract only one field an return it and discard the other part. (and I have two functions that takes each part from it) And this is because how the structure is, which worked fine with rev-files but not with finger.
17:33:42 <Zuu> TrueBrain: By the way call_user_func("", ... ) how bad is it to use? I assume it might be slow but is it /kick slow or just a little slower than function pointers?
17:34:44 <TrueBrain> in PHP? Iguess it doersnt matter
17:36:52 <Eddi|zuHause> <Sacro> If ANY of the checksums don't match <- for the record, that feels much more wrong than "doesn't"
17:37:07 <SpComb> Zuu: heh, "just a little slower"
17:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> but you british people don't know grammar anyway :p
17:37:16 <Brianetta> Eddi: We know our own.
17:37:21 <Zuu> TrueBrain: In Php yes. Cool, though it was a deadly sin to use it.
17:38:03 <TrueBrain> I am not a PHP guru, but I used it a lot in my time ... never had any problems with it :p
17:38:13 <Rubidium> SpComb: would it make sense to stop some of the < 0.6.1 myottd.net servers?
17:38:21 <TrueBrain> lol @ Eddi|zuHause :)
17:38:34 <hylje> php is OK so long it's not forced on the poor folks
17:38:46 <Brianetta> PHP is an ugly, ugly language
17:39:20 <murray> BUT it has its advantages
17:39:32 <TrueBrain> one of the reasons the new website is not in PHP ;)
17:39:35 <Rubidium> PHP has it's uses, but quite some uses of PHP are well... insane
17:39:43 <Zuu> Ok, I used it heavily because I wanted to have one place where I define the targets, which methods to use, and not have to change in switch-case structures all over the place. But I now realize how that could be done with switch-case instead of call_user_func.
17:39:52 <murray> that's because it's easy to misuse for people with no clue
17:40:06 <murray> however, compare it to asp.net, and you'll love php ;)
17:40:29 <TrueBrain> on error resume next
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17:40:32 <TrueBrain> I love that statement :)
17:40:56 <hylje> php is convenient, just drop the sources to htdocs
17:41:01 * yorick thanks TrueBrain, hugs
17:41:06 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: you know where .net stands for, right? The Frisian "het kan net".
17:41:08 <hylje> configuration? wutssat?
17:41:39 <TrueBrain> hylje: well, that argument holds now, but when PHP was created, CGI was the same .. still PHP won :) So there is more to it then just that ;)
17:42:06 <TrueBrain> but yeah, PHP is nice, just it kills your server :p
17:42:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14325 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt english_US.txt galician.txt german.txt swedish.txt):
17:42:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-09-14 17:42:18
17:42:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 2 fixed, 31 changed by Hadez (33)
17:42:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 211 fixed by WhiteRabbit (211)
17:42:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: galician - 193 fixed, 10 changed by Condex (203)
17:42:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 2 fixed, 38 changed by sulai (40)
17:42:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: swedish - 60 fixed by ChrillDeVille (60)
17:43:08 <TrueBrain> hylje: fair enough, I ment it in comparsing to Perl CGI :)
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17:43:37 * orudge remembers non-.NET ASP
17:43:41 <Kasceh> If a train slows down alot when it gets to a hill, is that a setting or is that just a horsepower issue?
17:43:48 <hylje> thing is PHP is a template language that embeds application logic
17:43:55 <orudge> You could run Perl as an language in ASP, though
17:44:01 <hylje> the other CGI stuff at the time was applications embedding templates
17:44:02 <orudge> as well as the likes of VBScript and JavaScript
17:44:48 <TrueBrain> but I think PHP has gained so much momentum, because it is so easy to use, in so many way .. not minding the speed of anything, it just does what you tell it to
17:44:49 <TrueBrain> most of the time :p
17:45:11 <TrueBrain> neverthelss, it is a crappy language that should be removed from the wegb :p
17:45:21 <orudge> indeed, for all its faults, PHP can be a very useful language, very quick and easy to use, and extremely powerful
17:45:26 <orudge> sure, other languages can do the same
17:45:31 <hylje> Kasceh: old acceleration works that way
17:45:36 <hylje> Kasceh: you may want to use realistic
17:45:51 <TrueBrain> it is just a few months that I use python or bash over PHP to do quick scripts :p
17:46:02 <Eddi|zuHause> where "realistic" is still a misnomer :p
17:46:21 * orudge has done some relatively wicked things with PHP in the new Repository
17:46:24 <orudge> which I still need to finish, hmm
17:46:43 <TrueBrain> orudge: how is winecfg going?
17:46:50 <orudge> well, Summer of Code has finished
17:46:55 <orudge> the project as a whole went quite well
17:47:00 <orudge> I have a few more patches to submit
17:47:03 <orudge> but was distracted by an exam
17:47:06 <orudge> (which was since been and gone)
17:47:13 <orudge> however, tomorrow we start preparing everything for freshers week next week in the union
17:47:17 <orudge> so it will be rather busy :)
17:47:26 <TrueBrain> but you got your stuff done, or?
17:47:33 <orudge> yes, I got everything I set out to do done
17:47:39 <orudge> and a few other bits and bobs, too
17:47:47 <TrueBrain> cool :) Concratz :)
17:47:55 <orudge> I would still like to go back and tweak winecfg some more though (for the most part, I was creating new stuff, rather than changing the existing stuff)
17:48:00 <orudge> but now it has to compete with uni for time
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17:49:47 <yorick> r14324 does what it says not to :-P
17:50:50 <yorick> (not that I mind at all)
17:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... KTorrent 3 still has no RSS plugin...
17:51:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's kind of a killer feature...
17:52:02 <yorick> where did the openttd devblog go?
17:52:19 <TrueBrain> died in silence, a few weeks back
17:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> KTorrent 2 has it.
17:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so i can't upgrade
17:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there are some things about µTorrent that i don't like...
17:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> being a windows program for example
17:54:28 <TrueBrain> being created by ludde?
17:54:36 <TrueBrain> (hehe, bad joke, I take that back :))
17:55:00 <hylje> i've heard transmission is decent
17:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: having it doesn't mean liking it
17:55:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ktorrent is decent, i only can't update from 2 to 3
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17:57:34 <Sacro> sigh, I wonder if pulseaudio will survive a reboot
17:59:30 <yorick> what's this "half-a-high-office-building" doing on my temperate map
17:59:40 <yorick> and why is it only half a high office building
18:01:09 <yorick> and why does it not want to leave
18:08:01 <welshdragon> yorick, demolish it?
18:08:26 <yorick> and if I disable the assert, it doesn't leave
18:09:35 <yorick> there are actually more heigh office buildings on the map
18:09:53 <yorick> which makes me think some grf was removed
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18:19:29 <nicfer> would be useful a second nightly, which would act like the MiniIN and other community-maintained patch packs?
18:20:14 <Noldo> What good would it do? Who would maintain it?
18:21:38 <yorick> those nightlies are called "trunk"
18:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: the miniin was compiled like nightlies, but i don't see anyone around who would keep up the work needed
18:25:07 <nicfer> yorick: except that trunk doesn't allow unfinished patches
18:25:43 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: which has a reason
18:25:54 <hylje> with hg/git support trunk is only symbolic
18:26:17 <nicfer> and that special nightly would be maintained by everyone that wants to contribute
18:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: the last time an unfinished patch was accepted into trunk was a big catastrophe!
18:27:16 <nicfer> that's what the MiniIN was for
18:27:26 <nicfer> testing of unfinished patches
18:27:33 <Noldo> nicfer: that's not maintenance, that's just mess
18:27:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the miniin was never ever a testing ground for patches
18:28:13 <eekee> anyone can make their own *IN, can't they?
18:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there are like 5 of those in the forum
18:28:44 <nicfer> the trouble with *INs is that they get lost very quickly
18:29:15 <Rubidium> nicfer: and you expect that an *IN being compiled doesn't go down the same path?
18:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not going to be changed just because they have a branch in the svn
18:29:36 <eekee> well so long as it lasts long enough for development of that one patch
18:30:13 <Rubidium> problem is that those multi-patch packs make it almost impossible to really test a single patch because of the integration issues between the patches
18:30:23 <nicfer> why not instead do one that can be mantained by more than one person
18:30:51 <nicfer> so if that one person gets busy by real life, other can pick up it and continue it on
18:30:54 <Rubidium> and fixes for patches get all lost in the big bad patch
18:30:59 <Rubidium> nicfer: done that, failed at that
18:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: because they wouldn't
18:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: patch authors would stop improving their patch as soon as it gets in the supposedly "official" "testing" build
18:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause> which means a certain death for both the patch and the build
18:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the patch will never be finished, and the build will become unmaintainable
18:33:00 <Noldo> nicfer: What good would it do?
18:51:32 <TrueBrain> peter1138: what are you counting?
18:52:17 <yorick> is 0.6.3 to be released soon? ( I know it sounds stupid :-p, but I am the most curious/nosy person right after dih, according to Idon'tknowanymore(our developer whale?))
18:52:24 <yorick> he was at 42GB yesterday
18:52:26 <TrueBrain> peter1138: not how, 'what'
18:53:04 <TrueBrain> if you know it sounds stupid, why do you ask?
18:53:20 <yorick> because I want to know
18:54:14 <TrueBrain> well, I guess that requires the answer you always get: when it is done
18:54:30 <yorick> it seems quite done now
18:55:00 <peter1138> TrueBrain, recovering data from a broken disk drive...
18:55:02 <dih> yorick: devs decide what 'done' looks like
18:55:14 <TrueBrain> peter1138: ah ... is that so slowly?
18:55:21 <yorick> my done looks like 100% of roadmap completed
18:55:25 <peter1138> It's pretty broken... :o
18:55:29 <TrueBrain> peter1138: sucks :s
18:55:39 <TrueBrain> yorick: then I am happy you are not a dev :)
18:55:50 <peter1138> TrueBrain, "But it's on a mirror!"
18:56:07 <peter1138> A mirror with 1 * 120GB and 1 * 20GB drive? I think not.
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19:31:42 <TrueBrain> a sandwich with cheese, yes please
19:32:29 <Sacro> ln: i'd love to have a swastika up
19:36:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14326 /trunk/src/ (bridge_gui.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Fix: some wrong comments (Yexo)
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19:46:59 <Brianetta> Having stations be safe waiting places for PBS really dumbs down signalling.
19:47:20 <Brianetta> If all your stations are termini, you can get away with only one signal on your entire network.
19:47:31 <Brianetta> That's only there to activate PBS.
19:48:03 *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
19:48:25 <ln> Wolf01|AWAY: not interesting
19:49:38 <yorick> say *|AWAY "<ln> $Nick: not interesting"
20:10:06 <reven> working on some graphics codes, anyone care to try on some questions i have?
20:10:48 <yorick> don't ask to ask, just ask, anyone that could help might help
20:11:33 <TrueBrain> yorick: I couldn't have said it better :)
20:11:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14327 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Fix [FS#2251]: if you rename a town before building something and build something near that town your company would be called "<old townname> Transport".
20:12:33 <reven> im trying to make some changes in which zones the houses are built whithin the North american city renewal graphics...
20:12:56 <reven> 107 * 84 00 07 01 27 00 13 03 78 03 78 01 78 01 78 06 78 06 78 06 78 06 78 00 00 04 78 00 00 04 78 00 00
20:13:26 <reven> this should be the right code but i dont understand what the values set mean
20:14:45 <DorpsGek> yorick: base <fromBase> [<toBase>] <number>
20:16:51 <Ammler> reven: check the ttdpatch wiki
20:17:10 <reven> yeah i have read through it almost
20:17:24 <reven> but the value 78 makes no sense
20:17:33 <Rubidium> what does nforenum think of that file?
20:19:24 <Rubidium> it doesn't look valid to me (and I haven't even coded a action 0 containing newgrf)
20:25:09 <reven> well the string is supposed to say: <Action 0> <houses> <one change per house> <39 houses to be changed> <GRFID 00> <property (13); Availability mask. (Which zone the houses are built in)> ....but then the rest does not make any sense to me
20:26:13 <reven> 03 is the zone i suppose
20:28:55 <Rubidium> a mask of 7803 is invalid
20:29:08 <Rubidium> and the repetive 78s seem invalid to me too
20:30:09 <Rubidium> and even when I disregard the 78s, it's still invalid
20:31:21 <reven> what a piece of shit grf
20:32:09 <yorick> nfo with comments usually works better
20:33:21 <reven> i didnt write anything htough
20:33:31 * yorick thinks about the possibilities of open-source grfs
20:34:27 <Rubidium> but there are already open source newgrfs
20:37:11 <reven> rubidum: do i have to write the whole string manually with this program?
20:37:43 <yorick> printscreen + OCR maybe ? :-p
20:38:20 <peter1138> "coding by OzTransLtd" heh
20:42:31 <peter1138> Rubidium, apart from the 78s, what's invalid?
20:43:00 <peter1138> In fact, including the 78s, what's invalid?
20:43:33 <Tim> Lol, that video is sick :D
20:46:59 <yorick> peter1138: including the 78s, for a start the 78s are invalid, I don't know about the others, for what I can read, the 03s too
20:47:34 <peter1138> The 78s are perfectly valid.
20:48:28 <Rubidium> then I'm probably not understanding it properly
20:49:14 <Rubidium> isn't it property value property value?
20:49:36 <peter1138> Action 0, Feature 7, 1 property, 0x27 houses, starting at 0. Property 13 -- list of 0x27 words for property 13
20:51:07 <Rubidium> then it's still setting a lot of bits that aren't used
20:51:12 <peter1138> It's property value * num-ids property value * num-ids
20:51:38 <peter1138> Those bits are used.
20:52:10 <peter1138> Bits 0 to 4 and 11 to 15 all have meaning.
20:52:35 <Rubidium> yeah, but the set bits 8-10 aren't used
20:53:00 <peter1138> And they're not set, either.
20:53:13 <reven> youre certain its not 39 properties, 27 in hex?
20:54:00 <peter1138> 7800 is bits 11 to 14.
20:54:40 <Rubidium> hmm... why does endianness always make my brain fail?
20:54:54 <Rubidium> and WHY doesn't it work on nibbles!
20:55:57 <reven> so its the climate availability the code is about not zone availability
20:56:00 * Rubidium ponders silently ignoring further newgrf questions
20:56:13 * TrueBrain gives Rubidium a true brain
20:56:24 <reven> artic and subartic i think
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20:58:57 <peter1138> Lower 8 bits are town zone, upper 8 are climate.
20:59:52 <reven> Is this gonna work? <spritenum> * <length> 00 07 01 27 00 13 <value1> <Value2> <Value3>....<Value 39>
21:00:32 <reven> so the value is in 2 bytes then?
21:00:47 <reven> thats why theres so many f.. bytes in that string
21:02:29 <reven> theres more btw i didnt show the whole string
21:03:38 <peter1138> I prefer the word line to string.
21:04:44 *** Sacro is now known as Guest6983
21:04:56 *** Guest6983 is now known as Shinaku
21:05:22 <reven> Building availability mask (13)
21:05:38 *** stillunknown has joined #openttd
21:06:34 <reven> bits: 0..4 value: 1,2,4,8,10 : which town zone(s) the building can be built in
21:07:06 <reven> so if a house is to be built in zone 4 what does the byte look like?
21:07:39 <peter1138> Depends which bit represents this zone 4.
21:08:01 <peter1138> Zone 4, Inner Suburb?
21:08:07 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
21:08:10 <peter1138> That'll be bit 4, so a value of 8.
21:08:11 *** ripperdoc has joined #openttd
21:08:56 <reven> what if its in zone 2, 3, and 4?
21:10:02 <Mortal> wait... your company isn't named anything before you begin building?
21:10:10 <Mortal> what are you called initially, then?
21:10:47 <peter1138> Unnamed Transport, or somethign :p
21:11:01 <Mortal> I haven't noticed anyway
21:11:49 <peter1138> reven: bits 1 + 2 + 3 = 2 + 4 + 8 = 14 = 0E
21:12:15 <peter1138> (It was the 4th bit earlier, so bit 3, not bit 4)
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21:13:21 <Mortal> heh, good ol' hexadecimal maths
21:13:39 <Mortal> bits 1 2 and 3 = 0b00001110 = 0x0E
21:13:53 <Mortal> 0b1111 = 0xF, subtract the first bit = 0xE
21:14:51 <Mortal> I still say we should abandon digits 8 and 9 and teach octal maths to kids all the way from primary school
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21:16:51 <reven> i think my retarded brain finally got it
21:17:01 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
21:17:04 <reven> dont hold your breath, i just mean . maybe
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22:24:44 <reven> Dammit: Ive finished making my own ronny.nfo file and ronny.pcx by modifying the old "North american city renewal" (GRF)....
22:25:17 <reven> but my encoding wizard says it cant find the nfo and pcx files. what gives?
22:25:40 <reven> do i have to write a path somewhere?
22:30:16 <reven> When encoding, they will be available only if they are already decoded, and if the decoded NFO file(s) are located under a SPRITES subfolder under the main TTD folder. However you can add one GRF file from any folder as long as you also specify the location of its PCX and NFO files manually using the buttons for that purpose.
22:31:09 <reven> whats a "a SPRITES subfolder under the main TTD folder. " ???
22:31:28 <Ammler> those tools seems outdated, just use grfcodec and nforenum
22:32:08 <reven> its a wizard thats based on grfcodec
22:32:10 <Ammler> I read something about wizard.
22:32:44 <reven> whats a sprites subfolder in the main ttd folder?
22:33:11 <Ammler> if you have a example.grf and decode it
22:33:37 <Ammler> the files will be in ./sprites/ as example.nfo and example.pcx
22:33:59 <Ammler> then you can just encode the grf again and it takes those 2 files.
22:35:31 <reven> im trying to make a ronny.grf file. both the ronny.nfo file and ronny.pcx file is located in the same folder ...openttd/data/ronny.grf/nfo/pcx
22:36:23 <Ammler> well, if you use the wizard, I can't help...
22:37:56 <reven> i just had to make a sprites subfolder for some reason
22:44:09 <Sacro> why do you now include openttd.desktop in make install
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22:46:31 <Ammler> Sacro: never thought there are people using install :-)
22:47:06 <Sacro> my PKGBUILD uses make DESTDIR=$startdir/pkg install
22:47:24 <Ammler> and you don't want a desktop symbol?
22:48:29 <Sacro> but I have openttd.desktop openttd-svn.desktop and openttd-beta.desktop
22:53:57 <Ammler> Sacro: that is, why I don't install them...
23:06:25 <nicfer> would be cool to be able to create slopes without track, roads and those things
23:09:36 <nicfer> oh, and why no one caught this idea: exclusive vehicles for each player
23:12:04 <nicfer> so, player 1 gets a 160km/h electric engine while player 2 can get a 200km/h dmu
23:13:24 <welshdragon> nicfer, as it's unfair
23:13:43 <welshdragon> you'd want a game to be as fair as possible
23:13:56 <nicfer> but the dmu could have less horse power
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23:17:06 <nicfer> now one idea for simplifying server creation in OTTD: when you make a single player game, there could be a check 'Create an Internet server?', if you check it, a new window will open to configure the server
23:17:16 *** mib_53o7gg has left #openttd
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23:18:21 <SmatZ> nicfer: we have enough internet servers, we lack players
23:20:19 <SmatZ> OTTD players enjoy playing singleplayer... (comparing number of OTTD downloads -over 100 000- / number of online players -over 100-)
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23:59:16 <ccfreak2k> Maybe your target demographic is autistic. :)
continue to next day ⏵
