IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-09-12
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00:00:14 <nicfer> hmmm, if openttd is not aiming for realism, then why not make the game start in year 1?
00:00:28 <nicfer> thats, moving year 1920 to 1
00:01:19 <nicfer> yes, but without any locomotives
00:01:37 <Belugas> you just have to make a grf that will feature the required vehicles
00:01:42 <Belugas> the code already supports it
00:03:04 <Belugas> DaleStan, no objections on your side for house->xy at var 47?
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00:11:42 * Pikka is writing a seven-step advanced var 2
00:11:52 <Pikka> I hope this works 'cause it will be a bugger to debug if it doesn't.
00:13:42 <nicfer> hmmm, would be too hard allowing to create 4096x1024/8192x512/16384x256/etc. without bugging the game too much?
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00:25:35 <DaleStan> Belugas: Var 47 as ----YYXX?
00:26:40 <DaleStan> If so, no immediate objections, but I don't currently know where such information would be stored. It has to be somewhere of course.
00:27:18 <glx> I think it's the tileindex
00:29:31 <DaleStan> I meant in Patch. We don't have tileindexes. We have seven untyped global variables.
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00:37:26 <glx> hmm newgrf spec doesn't really support maps bigger than 256*256 (example town var 80)
00:38:13 <Pikka> we had this discussion the other day
00:38:23 <Pikka> it does, it's just that the wiki doesn't reflect that
00:38:40 <glx> yes you just need to ask for a DWord
00:39:59 <Pikka> and do a bit of magic to convert the tileindex to xy :)
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00:49:00 <Tefad> er this is not a console
00:49:23 <Tefad> well technically it is, but it isn't a shell prompt.
00:54:36 <DaleStan> Belugas: Well, I said "----YYXX", but I meant "YYYYXXXX"
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01:31:08 <Pikka> how interesting... my town has a population but no buildings...
01:32:34 <Pikka> something is not right!
01:53:20 <Belugas> understood DaleStan. thanks
01:54:03 <Pikka> solved. when a town removes a multi-tile house by building a new house over it it doesn't remove the population from the other parts. :)
01:54:12 <Belugas> DaleStan, what do you use to address a tile if you do not use tileindexes?
01:54:24 <Pikka> I put all the population in the first tile and it fixes the problem.
01:54:32 <DaleStan> [landscapeX+esi], usually
01:54:42 <Pikka> Belugas: is Minimum life span in years (1F) not implemented in ottd?
01:54:51 <DaleStan> L3 and L8 are +esi*2.
01:55:06 <Lakie> esi would be the tile index to be honest.
01:55:20 <Lakie> As thats how we 'find' the data for each tile. :/
01:55:38 <Belugas> and esi is what exactly?
01:55:42 <DaleStan> True, I guess. But it's not typed.
01:55:59 <Lakie> Its just a number between 0x0 and 0xFFFF
01:56:05 <Belugas> we created a lot of types around untyped data ourselves ;)
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01:56:22 * NullAshton huhs, didn't expect so many people to be in the IRC channel.
01:56:48 <Lakie> Well, it allows for checks around the values and such, assuming a type is a class?
01:57:25 <Belugas> Pikka, it is implemented. why?
01:57:56 <Pikka> just my buildings seemed to be being replaced more often than I'd expect :)
01:58:59 <Belugas> Lakie, i do not follow you on types and classes
01:59:21 <Lakie> Maybe I've been programming oo too much
01:59:32 <Lakie> But from what I understand there are 8-16 base types
01:59:47 <Lakie> Anything else is a class / object.
02:00:19 <Lakie> a base type would be byte, double, int, char etc. (string depends on language).
02:00:52 <Lakie> (Oh, you do have enums, I guess)
02:01:06 <Belugas> yes, lots of enums :)
02:01:20 <Lakie> So tileindex is just an aliased int or is it a class?
02:01:30 <Belugas> but we tend to typify a lot of base types
02:01:48 <Belugas> and yes, tileindex is a typed base class around...
02:05:03 <Belugas> Pikka, the code is a bit stgrange around the use of that property, to be honest
02:06:04 <Belugas> glx, Rubidium, are you ok with var 47 being XXXX YYYY of house positoin ?
02:09:52 <Belugas> mmh... code seems to be fine after further checking
02:10:11 <Belugas> right.. glx is not there
02:15:56 <nicfer> what's the goal of suggestions if all of them have as response "impossible", "do it yourself" or "we wouldn't include this"?
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02:17:41 <JdGordon> is there any way to stop trains turning around if they are sitting at signals for too long?
02:18:32 <JdGordon> if there isnt... does anyone know rouphly where in the code I can find the logic so it can be disblaed?
02:18:56 <Belugas> nicfer, does it mean we should do EVERYTHING that has been suggested?
02:19:21 <Belugas> does it mean we should turn OpenTTD into a WAR ZONE?
02:19:58 <Belugas> Does it mean we need to find ways to do EVERYHTING ASKED, even what we KNOW cannot be done?
02:20:24 <Belugas> or does not give enouhg to the game compared to the shitty hours of brain storming reauired to do so?
02:21:06 <nicfer> I mean, what's the goal of the suggestions forum if noone of those goes to even a patch
02:21:14 <Belugas> JdGordon, i cannot tell you in the code where it happens. I know it's in the path findings somewhere
02:21:23 <Belugas> nicfer ther are suggestions been done.
02:21:49 <Belugas> JdGordon: i know that you can cahnge the time for trains to wait before turning around
02:21:55 <Belugas> but i'm not too good at that
02:22:03 <nicfer> yes, but them are 0,01% of the total
02:22:12 <JdGordon> a setting or in code?
02:22:26 <Belugas> well move your ass and sart coding, nicfer
02:23:04 <Belugas> JdGordon, i think yu can find the said value in the openttd.cfg, something about wait for signal or something
02:23:28 <Belugas> nicfer, and it's not my freaking fault if users come up with crazy ideas
02:23:30 <NullAshton> JdGordon, you could have oneway signals.
02:23:53 <Belugas> nicfer: and we all have a life outside of openttd
02:24:01 <NullAshton> Two consecutive oneway signals, spaced so that a train can just fit between the two. If it turns back, it instantly hits the other oneway signal the wrong way, and then turns back and waits at the proper signal more.
02:24:40 <JdGordon> NullAshton: my signals are all oneways, but for some reason trains turn around and they just sit there because they get confued or something
02:25:05 <Belugas> is ther something at the end of the road?
02:25:09 <Belugas> can you show a screeni?
02:25:25 <JdGordon> it happens when the back of the train sits over an intersection
02:25:47 <JdGordon> they sit with "waiting for free path" as their status
02:25:56 <JdGordon> causing major traffic jams
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02:26:57 <NullAshton> That's because it detects itself as an obstruction.
02:27:33 <JdGordon> wait_oneway_signal ?
02:27:54 <nicfer> but if almost no one gets coded, then why don't delete that section?
02:30:15 <Belugas> what is your point nicfer? what is the next step in your logic?
02:31:51 <Belugas> and where the fuck you do you get this highly subjective 0.01% inclusion value?
02:35:32 <JdGordon> guys, thanks, wait_oneway_signal seems to be it... upped it to 90 and no more trains turning around :)
02:41:12 <Belugas> a pleasure (for little i could do for you)
02:45:54 <NullAshton> Does anyone else use some sort of standard T and crossroad junctions?
02:50:08 <Belugas> it's my son who tells me how to connect tracks ;)
02:52:35 <NullAshton> Usually I have a two way system with trains on the right, and I took a T intersection from some place that's small, and impossible to overload as far as I know.
02:55:55 <NullAshton> ...huh, I found a more compact three way than my old design.
02:57:50 <Belugas> Phantasm, can you compile a patch?
03:23:25 <JdGordon> NullAshton: thats truly pointless... I try to make sure I never have more than 4-way junctions or it just gets too complicated and is bound to cause jams
03:23:36 <NullAshton> I just have T junctions.
03:23:42 <NullAshton> Lots and lots of T junctions.
03:24:01 <NullAshton> Basically I have a line between a couple of places.
03:24:08 <NullAshton> Then I add another line to that to go someplace else, with a tjunction.
03:24:19 <NullAshton> I just keep adding on tjunctions to existing lines.
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03:57:50 <JdGordon> NullAshton: yeah, I do the same, except lots of my lines end in Y junctions
03:59:36 * JdGordon usually makes his networks too complex
04:00:01 <JdGordon> on my current game I have a screen (1680x1050) which is almost entirly tracks!
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04:32:36 <Czeko> Hello, im trying to make a .grf mexican cities name list
04:33:04 <Czeko> and i have the name list, now what haha
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05:25:50 <welshdragon> roboboy, stop bouncing!
05:26:46 <NullAshton> He must be running on energizer batteries.
05:27:00 <NullAshton> ...huh, I know that name.
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06:39:59 <roboboy> my client was having graphical glitches cause I reconected after the computer went into hibernation and to fix it i either have to cycle or disconnect and connect
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07:19:17 <planetmaker> morning OTTD fans and addicts :)
07:28:12 <FauxFaux> I can quit whenever I want
07:33:13 <roboboy> how do I unshare orders a train has whilst keeping some of them?
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07:34:24 <Brianetta> Let me know if you think that's worth putting in a new thread
07:42:16 <Ammler> roboboy: don't think, it is possible
07:42:49 <Brianetta> roboboy: You talk nonsense, lad
07:43:49 <Brianetta> roboboy: You appear to have completely missed the bit where I said, "In order to preserve the gameplay expected by, and provided for, Transport Tycoon Deluxe players..."
07:44:16 <Brianetta> Gameplay which is preserved even without patch settings, etc
07:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause> roboboy: have another vehicle with this order list nearby, delete the order list of the first by deleting the "end of shared orders" item, and then copy (not share) the order list of the second vehicle
07:47:15 <Brianetta> I believe "that the game play change is too great and move too far away from TTD" in that case, too.
07:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> how can gameplay move too far from TTD if TTD neither had groups nor shared orders?
07:50:32 <Brianetta> I have no idea.. It's unwelcome criticism.
07:52:40 <planetmaker> Interesting idea, Brianetta :)
07:55:22 <Brianetta> This is borne of trying to get Helen playing
07:55:26 <Brianetta> Just a simple truck service
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08:11:31 <planetmaker> The problem is, that it is anything but a small change if I fathom it correctly. It requires modification of the vehicle GUI, group GUI and orders gui and a (nearly) complete re-write of the orders back end.
08:13:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there are separate features in there, 1) moving orders from vehicles to groups, 2) make groups nest, 3) allow custom liveries per group
08:14:50 <planetmaker> the first point is the most important. All others are secondary to it though
08:14:59 <Noldo> it is quite odd that shared orders and groups are separate
08:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) can also be split into a GUI part (displaying, handling of nested groups) and a backend part (inheritance relationship for properties (orders, liveries, replacement rules, etc.)
08:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: shared orders are much older
08:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> one big problem will be converting old savegames
08:16:27 <Noldo> is there a way to get a list of vehicles with the same shared orders?
08:16:44 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that is IMO not too big a problem. For each set of (shared) orders just create a group on its own.
08:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> in the order list, click on the icon on the far right
08:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but there are already vehicle groups which not necessarily match the shared order grouping
08:18:42 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: Right. But they could be kept as generic groups w/o (valid) orders. But as savegame compatibility has to be broken anyway, it's no big deal to delete them w/o further hassle, too
08:18:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you're not getting a clean tree representation of that which keeps the old properties (either you destroy old groups, or you unshare orders for vehicles that are not in the same group anymore)
08:19:06 <planetmaker> or the latter, yes.
08:20:31 <planetmaker> In the first place one wouldn't have to bother about nesting anyway, just everything as a top-level group.
08:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if you implement nested groups first, you could also create new groups for each shared order list, and then split up the old groups as children of these new groups
08:21:43 <Eddi|zuHause> which might preserve most of the information from the old savegame
08:22:16 <planetmaker> or vice versa. Myself, I'd group all vehicles in one town into one group - but vehicles might have different orders despite, e.g. for differen routes within the town.
08:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that is not a "problematic" case
08:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> example, you have three shared orders: 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b
08:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and have two groups A, B
08:23:52 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. B is used for upgrading
08:23:54 <planetmaker> I know what you mean, no worries :)
08:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and you have A = {1a, 1b, 2a}, B = {2b, 3a, 3b}
08:24:33 <planetmaker> then you just tell anything in A to upgrade, including subgroups, yes
08:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you have vehicles 2a and 2b which share orders, but are in different groups
08:25:27 <Eddi|zuHause> when converting the savegame, you create new groups I II III
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08:26:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and split the existing groups A and B, so you have I.A = {1a, 1b} (I.B can be omitted), II.A = {2a}, II.B = {2b}, III.B = {3a, 3b}
08:27:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't use A and B as the parent groups, because that way you cannot share orders between 2a and 2b anymore
08:31:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you could of course first check if such a case will occur
08:36:16 <planetmaker> well, reasonably, you only create a sub-group, if there are more than one set of orders in a (currently) existing group.
08:37:26 <Brianetta> [09:13] <Eddi|zuHause> there are separate features in there, 1) moving orders from vehicles to groups, 2) make groups nest, 3) allow custom liveries per group
08:37:37 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: Vehicles would still have orders
08:37:48 <Brianetta> they'd be overridden by group membership
08:38:51 <Eddi|zuHause> imho, it would make more sense if each vehicle was in an imaginary group of its own, then vehicles don't need orders anymore
08:39:09 <Brianetta> Cleaner, but more work
08:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and you have the overriding backwards
08:39:38 <Brianetta> Groups inherit from parents unless they have their own
08:39:47 <Brianetta> Vehicles only use their own if there's no group
08:40:06 <Brianetta> Vehicles' own orders are of the very lowest priority
08:40:18 <Brianetta> If you want one vehicle to go off and do something different, don't group it
08:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes no sense, special orders always override the general orders
08:40:39 <Brianetta> Then make a special sub-group
08:41:00 <Brianetta> The ONLY reason a vehicle has its own orders is to preserve the sanity of people who want it just like TTD
08:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly what i said, each vehicle has its special subgroup by default
08:41:11 <Brianetta> so they can happily continue not to use groups
08:41:23 <Brianetta> If it's implemented like that, sure
08:41:28 <Noldo> Brianetta: but that's just qui frosting
08:41:28 <Brianetta> but such a group should be visible
08:41:44 <Brianetta> so that players can remove the vehicle to another group (:
08:42:07 <Noldo> internally it makes sence to have orders attached to groups and vehicle always be alone in a leaf group
08:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing changes for people that use neither groups nor shared orders
08:42:45 <Brianetta> Eddi: Your idea of making every vehicle belong to its own group is a sound one.
08:42:58 <Brianetta> I just didn't want to make it sound *too* radical
08:43:05 <Brianetta> The OpenTTD devs can be very conservative
08:43:17 <Brianetta> I'm off to work; back soon, I hope
08:43:21 <Eddi|zuHause> no, only when you use the "r" word ;)
08:43:40 <peter1138> What I don't get with that thread...
08:44:02 <peter1138> Is why people confused Dalestan's implementation "for TTDPatch" with what I've done for OpenTTD...
08:44:51 <peter1138> I state my intentions, Dalestan states his intentions... for TTDPatch.
08:45:13 <planetmaker> fair enough. Two things, two opinions, no problem, on should think?
08:46:12 <peter1138> Not even two opinions. TTDPatch doesn't *have* vehicle groups...
08:46:32 <planetmaker> :P I don't care what TTDP has. I don't play it :)
08:47:00 <peter1138> So why did you care about what DaleStan wrote?
08:47:30 <planetmaker> He sometimes has reasonable ideas... what exactly are you referring to right now *a bit confused*
08:49:18 <planetmaker> :) Oh, well... yeah. As people are laying out concepts, it's worth debating them, isn't it?
08:50:18 <planetmaker> But you're right. DaleStan is with his TTDP-intentions a bit off topic there :) - and I fell for it.
08:51:30 <planetmaker> I read his comment more in a way like "...a solution I would consider..."
08:52:14 <peter1138> Yes... but the "for TTDPatch" bit is important ;)
08:52:51 <peter1138> Hmm, apparently I'm being taken out to check out some new premises.
08:53:00 <planetmaker> :) yeah, probably you're right :)
08:54:54 <planetmaker> I'm thinking of the structure from the end-user GUI point of view without know too much about the current implementation in OTTD
08:55:02 <peter1138> Only another 100GB to go :o
08:55:19 <planetmaker> :) That are usual amounts of data for me...
08:55:36 <planetmaker> 1 GB equal 20 seconds :)
08:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> 20 seconds is an awfully long time...
08:56:31 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: depends. Yes and no :)
08:57:00 <planetmaker> I've also data where I get that easily in 5 seconds where it still may seem long
08:57:24 <planetmaker> But maintaining this data aquisition rate over 3 hours is the real challange.
08:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> we urgently need GUIs that scale to translation length
08:57:41 <planetmaker> (which money can solve :P )
08:58:17 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: lots and lots of work, little time
08:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause> on a related note: why is the dropdown list in the vehicle list that small? there is a lot of space space left
08:59:14 <Eddi|zuHause> align the start all/stop all buttons to the right, and let the dropdown list scale wit window size
09:03:48 <nckomodo> the TT forums could use a visual upgrade
09:04:06 <nckomodo> and by that I mean something that doesnt make it look like a relic from the early 90s
09:04:35 <Rubidium> then use the other style
09:05:38 <planetmaker> the only thing I wish for is to filter in the new messages list all posts concerning OTTD only (and maybe the TTDP graphics section) :)
09:06:09 <nckomodo> I wasnt saying it was bothering me, I was saying the default style just makes the place seem like it probably hasnt been used very much in the past few years
09:06:56 <planetmaker> nckomodo: luckily a forum shows the frequency of usage quite easily
09:08:17 <peter1138> planetmaker, I'm copying this over a 2mbit/s leased line...
09:08:40 <planetmaker> uh... that's not making it too much fun :P
09:08:52 <Rubidium> then 1GB per 20 seconds is quite fast
09:09:14 <peter1138> That would be astounding.
09:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> or quite long seconds :p
09:10:03 <planetmaker> :) Megapixel camera with full camera link interface :P. Continuous data rate sustainable with a single PC is something like 300GB / 30 minutes.
09:10:10 <Rubidium> 40 Mbit/20 seconds => 5 MB/20 seconds => compression of 1 in 200
09:10:50 <planetmaker> but the frame grabber has a few GB buffer, so you can be faster short term.
09:12:34 <planetmaker> the bottle neck is the HD speed.
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09:42:35 <sulai> I never dared to ask, but i think this patch is quite usefull, so I do:
09:42:48 <sulai> Is there any chance to geht "quick goto" into the trunk?
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10:40:32 <planetmaker> [11:42] <sulai> Is there any chance to geht "quick goto" into the trunk? <-- I dare say I like it, too.
10:41:34 <planetmaker> But otoh I don't think it should go this way into trunk. I would rather have some bigger change which eases giving more complex orders as well like conditional and / or time tables.
10:41:54 <planetmaker> But as there's not good proposal how to do that (I've no good idea either)...
10:42:47 <CommanderZ> you would have to completely redo the order gui
10:43:32 <sulai> Hm, this patch is rather simple minded. Just saving a couple of clicks while creating the orders ;)
10:44:14 <CommanderZ> I tried and found it slightly confusing. Nothing I couldnt ge used to though.
10:45:54 <sulai> I miss it very much when playing RC or latest nightly ;)
10:46:22 <sulai> when you get used to it, it makes creating orders a bit of a fun
10:47:26 <sulai> and for those who don't like it: there is a patch settings entry in the patch window ;)
10:47:54 <Rubidium> oh... luckily others see that the order GUI needs improvements and that a hackish quick goto isn't the solution
10:48:29 <planetmaker> Rubidium: we _can_ listen to reason :)
10:49:13 <Rubidium> just that "we" doesn't include all users
10:49:45 <planetmaker> sure enough. But reason depends upon the information background one has.
10:50:07 <Brianetta> Rubidium: Did "others" include me? (:
10:50:47 <planetmaker> Brianetta: I guess the set which defines "others" depends upon the feature request subject to debate :P
10:50:54 <planetmaker> Could also include me ;)
10:50:55 <Rubidium> can't remember you pushing quick goto, so I reckon you might are in that group
10:51:11 <Brianetta> Is quick goto the one where you don't have to keep pressing goto?
10:51:20 <sulai> I got this idea of the already active goto button from locomotion, since it made creatinng orders less clicking. Even in a completely reworked orders window, maybe it's a good idea to have the go to button already active
10:51:22 <planetmaker> yes, for empty orders.
10:51:28 <Brianetta> because no matter the change in GUI, I think that's a neat idea
10:51:59 <Brianetta> It's like building stations (tool cursor goes away when clicked) and rails (doesn't)
10:52:20 <Brianetta> Almost independent of the actual orders method
10:53:33 <sulai> when building adjacent bus stations it's much clicking too...
10:54:48 <CommanderZ> thre is patch for it too
10:54:54 <planetmaker> That's a completely different thing though. That's persistance of built tools - which indeed is far from uniform.
10:55:00 <sulai> I think there are many places in the game where the player is forced to do unnecessary clicking... when building plants: why not activate "random trees" by default... saves 1 more click
10:57:36 <Brianetta> I don't plant trees
10:57:41 <Brianetta> There are too many of them by 2000 anyway
10:57:54 <Brianetta> totally unrealistic
10:57:57 <sulai> anyway, saving unnecesary clicking in the game results in better "game flow", or what ever you'd like to call it ;)
10:58:31 <sulai> Brianetta: I don't plant trees <--- do you only bribe towns? sometimes planting trees is enough ;)
10:58:47 <Brianetta> I either bribe towns, or wait
10:59:03 <Brianetta> Bribes are only necessary when I've invested heavily and can't build a station
10:59:10 <sulai> I wait or bribe too, but only if trees don't help anymore ;)
10:59:13 <Brianetta> Of course, having invested heavily, I'm usually "appalling"
10:59:33 <Brianetta> Planting trees just seems so arbitrary
10:59:56 <Brianetta> and in the late game, when you'd think trees should be in short supply, there's barely a tile without one.
11:00:06 <sulai> hm I think planting trees is OK there
11:00:48 <sulai> the only things which deletes trees in a bigger manner are the players or farms
11:01:25 <Brianetta> Trees should grow old and die
11:02:12 <Brianetta> lumber mills in tropical do the work (:
11:02:32 <planetmaker> Brianetta: guess what that grf does... in temperate
11:03:01 <Brianetta> Is it necessary to have the newgrf installed once it's on the map?
11:03:09 <Brianetta> Could they be placed in a scenario, for example?
11:03:20 <planetmaker> you'll still need the grf then.
11:03:21 <Ammler> Brianetta: good question
11:03:28 <Pikka> Brianetta: they should grow slower and new trees should self-plant less often :P
11:03:30 <Brianetta> planetmaker: Not necessarily
11:03:40 <planetmaker> Or I'd be surprised... - but I'm ready to learn :)
11:03:43 <Brianetta> Pikka: And, occasionally, die
11:03:57 <Brianetta> planetmaker: The game has all the info about them already
11:04:02 <Ammler> it should cut down the wood not in radius
11:04:08 <Brianetta> The only limitation to be overcome is the ability to place them in normal
11:04:13 <Ammler> it should cut them randomly in th earea
11:04:29 <Brianetta> Ammler: The chainsaw team have to walk, you know
11:04:37 <Ammler> but I fear that would need a patch
11:04:45 <Brianetta> It's very much how rainforests get clear cut
11:05:35 <Ammler> explains, why the lumber mill is available only there per default.
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11:20:26 <dih> sulai: idealy you should not come into the situation where you need to bribe or plant trees :-)
11:23:51 <sulai> so, create your station first ;)
11:24:27 * eekee thinks airports require bribery too often :)
11:24:43 <eekee> That's probably realistic though :D
11:25:35 <CommanderZ> Sulai: (about the patch )It is so simple that there is not much to check. Just one thing - do you really need go through the whole order list? It must be possible to get the size of the array (I don't know anything aboy how are orders stored though). And if you really need to count the items manually, the you should go with uint :)
11:27:00 <Ammler> Brianetta: can't be used without GRF
11:27:12 <Ammler> as the LumberMill doesn't cut the trees...
11:29:51 <sulai> CommanderZ: thank you for checking. I think it's necessary to go through all the items in the orders list, because not only the number of items is counted, but the number of STATION entries. If a orders list contains less than 2 STATION entries (but maybe 5 waypoints and a goto depot), the goto button will be active on window popup.
11:30:37 <sulai> this is only done when a orders window is opened by the player, so I think it's no speed issue
11:31:35 <eekee> um, that would annoy me when I'm making a new train and I want it to start moving before I much about finding the other station
11:31:35 * dih does not want to really comment on that, he does not play anyway :-P
11:31:47 <CommanderZ> Are you sure the condition "If the list is empty, then goto" wouldn't do the job? This can be confusing.
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11:33:26 <Brianetta> Ammler: Ah. Never mind. (:
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11:33:40 <Brianetta> Ammler: Can you get the tree-cutting action without the mill?
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11:33:55 <eekee> I think people would get used to it... hmm would it annoy me? The goto would cancel if I clicked on an order, wouldn't it?
11:34:01 <Ammler> Brianetta: I thought about that
11:34:12 <Ammler> applying it to the Forest
11:35:09 <dih> eekee: i would find it annoying, and probably never enable it :-P
11:35:21 <sulai> commanderZ: I'm not sure... can you think of order lists which are complete with less than 2 station entries?
11:36:13 <dih> no - but i can think of situations where i have the order window open and dont want to give an order just because i have less than 2 station sin that order
11:36:27 <dih> perhaps i want to scroll the map, or check what is going on at other stations
11:36:28 <sulai> goto should be active in the case the shedule is not complete (this includes, if its empty)
11:37:05 <dih> no - you want goto to be active
11:37:11 <CommanderZ> I don't like software which is trying to outsmart me :)
11:37:17 <eekee> no, it should be active only when the player wants it active
11:37:18 <dih> what you want and what should be the case are 2 different things (if not 3 :-D)
11:37:29 <sulai> dih: perhaps i want to scroll the map, or check what is going on at other stations <- then you do what you did if you had the dynamite tool active: click the button again or just press ESC
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11:37:56 <dih> no - i hardly ever use the dynamite tool
11:37:58 <eekee> Software that "tries to be clever" (to use a good old British workmans' phrase) is horrid
11:38:14 <dih> and it fails at trying to be clever :-D
11:38:48 <eekee> Actually the phrase "trying to be clever" always implies failure :D
11:39:16 <dih> what if one manages in the end?
11:39:28 *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred|work
11:39:49 * dih now thinks of clever & smart
11:41:18 <Brianetta> I think the goto button should just stay pressed until un-pressed
11:41:24 <Brianetta> simple, predictable
11:41:42 <sulai> Brianetta: Yes, I think this is an option
11:41:44 <Brianetta> just like building track or signals
11:41:59 <planetmaker> probably better, yeah
11:42:02 <Brianetta> un-press it by clicking it, pressing Escape. or closing the orders window
11:42:03 <dih> but the player presses it
11:42:10 <dih> not like an 'already pressed'
11:42:32 <Brianetta> Already pressed isn't intuitive after learning the rest of the game
11:42:43 <sulai> dih: maybe this could be an patch option, too
11:42:55 <Brianetta> except, perhaps, for depots and stations...
11:43:19 <Brianetta> but those are launched form a toolbar
11:43:56 <dih> sulai: ctrl+click = styas klicked
11:43:57 <TrueBrain> dih: don't give broken links :(
11:44:17 <dih> TrueBrain: it's not broken
11:44:17 <Brianetta> It's a cartoon cover
11:44:27 <TrueBrain> it is here, so shut up :p
11:44:41 <dih> TrueBrain: dont blame me if you cannot copy and paste :-D
11:44:54 <TrueBrain> connecting to buckfreund.de ......
11:44:57 <dih> on no - you have a 'clever' irc client and just clicked
11:45:17 <dih> TrueBrain: buchfreunde.de
11:45:33 <TrueBrain> now that was a typo typing it back ;)
11:45:41 <Brianetta> I remember when comics always had that amount of background detail
11:45:52 <Brianetta> Little amusing things to look for after you'd read the story
11:47:22 <dih> i need to start buying those again :-)
11:47:53 <eekee> I don't, I couldn't afford my internet if I did
11:49:10 <dih> but 5 euros a month should be fine :-D
11:49:37 <dih> no wait - still need to buy toothpaste this month, so perhaps i'll start next month
11:49:46 <eekee> I'm adding to my internet expense actually. getting a virtual server
11:50:20 <dih> virtual servers are just not powerful enough
11:50:26 <dih> (appart from the deal Ammler has)
11:51:07 <eekee> How much for colocation? & what country?
11:51:24 <Ammler> well, colocation is very expensive and you will have very fast a outdated server.
11:51:41 <Ammler> do dedicated server are the better choice imo.
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11:52:31 <dih> Ammler: colo is nowhere as expensive as dedicated server
11:52:54 <eekee> I'm looking at dedicated for < £60 for a year
11:52:59 <dih> and it's your hardware, if you dont upgrade when you want, it's your own fault
11:53:34 <Ammler> you need to buy/setup the hardware, doesn't that cost?
11:53:37 <dih> 60 quid a year is nothing, i cannot imagin any sane isp doing that with decent hardware
11:53:48 <dih> Ammler: i colocate old hardware :-)
11:53:54 * Forked pays nothing for his ADSL2+ and VDSL2 lines :)
11:54:32 <Ammler> nighboorhood (or how is that spelled)
11:54:36 <Forked> 16/1 Mbit adsl2+ and 24/5,5Mbit vdsl2
11:54:44 <eekee> actually honestly that £60 would get me a VM with nearly the same power as the spare computer I'd send out for co-lo anyway. And that would leave me without a spare in case my main comp died
11:54:48 <Forked> thats all the old crappy cables can handle :\
11:55:14 <eekee> although ram & disk space would be higher if I co-lo...
11:55:20 <eekee> dih: ttyl, I need to head out now
11:57:27 <Ammler> dih: how much would a vserver cost with the same power as your colo server?
11:57:41 <planetmaker> Ammler Neighbo(u)rhood
11:58:22 <dih> Ammler: i have a AMD athlon 2000+ with 1GB month, currently with unmetered bandwidth
11:58:45 <dih> and another light box serving webpages and repositories
11:58:49 <Ammler> wow, that is like mine vps
11:59:01 <Forked> oh that kind of dedicated, sorry
11:59:06 <dih> Ammler: your vps is not available anymore at the price you have it
11:59:40 <Ammler> well, I can drop the MWST
12:00:17 <Ammler> thanks to our lovely Blochler
12:01:33 <Ammler> but for internet buisness it is fine
12:04:56 <planetmaker> Ammler: I figured :)
12:10:11 <Ammler> hmm, I might not think of something, but wouldn't it be possible to store the used palette in the nfo?
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12:19:31 <sulai> what do you think about u3's suggestion (in the forum): What about getting service order with ctrl+click a depot?
12:20:49 <CommanderZ> I would stick with activating the auto goto only when the list is empty
12:21:17 <Brianetta> I wouldn't auto-activate it
12:21:30 <sulai> I never used a service order actually... I never used that. Whats the difference between "goto depot" and "goto depot for servicing"?
12:21:41 <Brianetta> sulai: Service at is conditional
12:21:47 <Brianetta> It doesn't bother if it doens't need a service
12:22:02 <sulai> Brianetta: thats part of the trick... auto-activating saves time
12:22:16 <sulai> ah, interesting to know :)
12:22:22 <Brianetta> Indeed. You know what I'm doing most of the time in my orders windows?
12:22:30 <Brianetta> Toggling full load.
12:22:46 <Brianetta> Or telling trains to skip.
12:23:34 <sulai> Brianetta: Or telling trains to skip. <- thats why the goto button shouldn't be active when the orders list seems to be finished
12:23:45 <Brianetta> Having the goto cursor stay active would reduce clicks when building orders.
12:23:50 <sulai> or wait I'll give it a try...
12:24:15 <planetmaker> sulai: why would I want to behave giving service orders differently than giving orders to a station?
12:24:32 <Brianetta> Having it become active by itself is just annoying (if it happens always) or adding needless complexity (if you run tests).
12:25:15 <sulai> planetmaker: because you can't full load in a depot? ;)
12:27:42 <planetmaker> so what...? It seems to me inconsitant to handle "goto depot" differently gui-wise than "goto MoonbaseAlpha East"
12:27:43 <Ammler> 1) Jump to order 4 if requires service is false
12:27:44 <Ammler> 2) Go To X (Unload and no loading)
12:27:46 <Ammler> 3) Go to nearest train depot
12:28:00 <sulai> Brianetta: Having it become active by itself is just annoying (if it happens always) or adding needless complexity (if you run tests). <- Maybe this is a solution: in the patch settings one can cycle through: "no quick goto", "quick goto, but not active at window popup", "only active at popup if empty", "active if less than 2 stations", "allways active" ?
12:28:51 <sulai> planetmaker: maybe we put depot servicing back for now =)
12:30:22 <Ammler> you can't use "goto depot for service" for loaded trains
12:30:36 <Ammler> you need to unload first, then service, then load.
12:31:36 <Ammler> did you ever enter a service depot on a train in real?
12:32:08 <sulai> i would feel rather misplaced ^^
12:33:23 <Ammler> ottd does allow enter a depot full, but I do not like that behavior much.
12:34:43 <planetmaker> :) Go, go, peter1138 - your data will make it :)
12:36:03 <Brianetta> sulai: Needless complexity....
12:37:13 <sulai> Brianetta: patch settings are complex... because everyone wants the game a little different ;)
12:37:37 <sulai> but this way everybody can choose what he likes best
12:37:50 <planetmaker> sulai: the more patch settings, the less likely is trunk inclusion :)
12:38:09 <planetmaker> KISS principle is quite important for patches...
12:38:56 <sulai> Brianetta: I personally like the goto button to be active if there are less than 2 station entries. you don't like it to be auto-active, but maybe you'd like it to stay active if you just clicked it.
12:39:13 <sulai> planetmaker: what is the KISS principle?
12:39:30 <planetmaker> Keep It Simple Stupid :)
12:39:34 <sulai> planetmaker: it's still one patch setting, but one you can cycle through
12:39:55 <Brianetta> I said what I'd find useful.
12:40:23 <sulai> hm so what about that first step: no auto active goto button at all, but just the patch setting which allows the goto button to stay active, if you click it
12:40:46 <planetmaker> Brianetta's version is how you'd expect things to work: press a button for a feature, press it again to deactivate it. E.g. make goto button selected a persistant thing.
12:40:54 <Brianetta> That's what I said I'd find useful. Making it so complex isn't somethin *I* have against it, it's a reason why the patch might not make it.
12:41:51 <sulai> make goto button selected a persistant thing. <- OK i think this is a deal ;)
12:41:54 <planetmaker> just like autorail is persistant: active until pressed again.
12:42:31 <CommanderZ> I agree, good ponit
12:44:01 <dih> yes - yet that button is not pressed by default
12:44:27 <planetmaker> dih: that was what I argued for... :P
12:44:58 <dih> all buttons presed at the same time: enabled
12:45:09 <dih> really quit? [yes] <- enabled
12:48:53 <sulai> ok, strg+station still results in a full_load_any
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12:56:26 <sulai> sorry... ctrl+station ;)
12:58:31 <Tim> hm, how about changing that second one to "go to button is only auto-active, when there are less than 2 orders in the list? (that being real stations)
13:00:43 <sulai> tim: this is how it was in the original quick goto. seems too complicated to make it into the trunk.
13:01:31 <Tim> Hm, that's sad, as it'd be very useful.
13:02:02 <sulai> Tim: I like the "auto active if less than 2 stations" very much, too. But better we get a persistent goto button than nothing... right ;)
13:02:45 <planetmaker> sulai: is the last version of the old patch broken with current trunk?
13:03:09 <planetmaker> Then no problem :)
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13:04:22 <sulai> Tim: a solution could be to make a patch settings entry where the user can decide the behavior of quick goto
13:05:12 <sulai> ...cycle through different settings like "no goto" "goto, but not auto active" "goto and auto active"... or the like
13:05:29 <sulai> but maybe this is a little too much for the first step
13:05:38 <Tim> Well yes, but i think noone would really speak out against the active-when-less-than-2-orders-thing, what else do you want to do in orders if not assign some? :)
13:06:23 <sulai> (which works with active goto button too)
13:10:36 <sulai> Tim: except assigning orders I use to skip orders, or just to check orders. That's what I do when the orders are actually complete, so no auto active goto button is needed
13:11:20 <sulai> but the bad thing: the goto button is not very predictive any more... some times it's active, sometimes not. It's harder for beginners (maybe)
13:12:06 <Brianetta> Essentially, two lines changed. Cool.
13:12:47 <planetmaker> doesn't beat my longest patch ever :)
13:13:23 <Brianetta> Just bump up your context settings, and even a one-line patch can be twice the size of the source code.
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13:15:47 <sulai> Brianetta: Essentially, two lines changed. Cool. <- more line needed for the patch settings dialog than for the actual patch ;)
13:16:17 <Ammler> Noldo: Bridge, I assume
13:16:25 * yorick tries to notify people of FS#2241
13:17:21 <dih> yorick: it's a bug tracking system
13:17:43 <dih> so it is pretty likely that someone will look at it without you highlighting your own stuff
13:17:56 <yorick> and I would like to see that specific fix by kakapoor committed
13:18:28 <dih> you know what they say about watching stuff too closely? :-P
13:18:50 <yorick> you know what they say about deadlocked airports? :P
13:22:50 <Pikka> they say "whoops", yorick
13:23:09 <yorick> yes, and they can't "unwhoops" themselves :(
13:25:38 <TrueBrain> Belugas: your keyboard is wrong
13:25:42 <TrueBrain> it keeps on typing a z instead of a h
13:26:33 <Belugas> naaaaz... just tzat i am not totally tzere rigzt now
13:27:01 <dih> wow - you have a pretty strong german accent
13:27:08 <Belugas> bien le bonjour a vous aussi, Messire Pikka
13:27:27 * Belugas is going to buy the new Metallica CD today :D
13:30:24 <planetmaker> [15:15] <Noldo> why B? <-- it was the water bridge which was missing that key :)
13:31:33 <Noldo> Belugas: I've heard the same line earlier today
13:32:59 <dih> Noldo: you are a question!
13:33:46 <Noldo> Belugas: rest of the family went music shopping today, main reason being Metallica
13:34:41 <Belugas> i'm a fan of the band since the release of Ride The Lightning
13:34:54 <peter1138> Hmm, that's a lot of rain.
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13:47:03 <sulai> peter1138 what are you doing?
13:47:19 <peter1138> I'm counting out time.
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13:50:14 <Belugas> sulai, he's got the whole thing down by numbers
13:50:29 <Belugas> hope it goes like he planned it
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14:11:30 <dih> Mortal, say !wrongchannel
14:11:58 <Mortal> oh right, that autokick?
14:12:09 <dih> where is glx when you actually need him?
14:12:57 <Mortal> what was that other channel called again?
14:13:17 <dih> the only other one i could think if would be TrueBrain
14:13:37 <Belugas> no, me, it would have been like that
14:13:43 *** dih was kicked by Belugas (like that)
14:14:03 <Belugas> see, a bit different ;)
14:14:07 <dih> anything that will make you smile :-)
14:17:16 <Belugas> It's Raining Again, Alleluia!
14:22:51 <Ammler> well, then it is raining everywhere...
14:24:06 <Belugas> not zere, not let at yeast
14:24:57 <SmatZ> I like when it's raining
14:25:16 <Belugas> i like songs about rain
14:25:32 <Belugas> i like swimming while it's raining
14:26:09 <Belugas> i like seeing and hearing the rain underwater
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14:33:30 <dih> SmatZ: running or dancing :-P
14:35:46 <SmatZ> dancing and singing in the rain...
14:35:55 <TrueBrain> rather dancing and singing on the danc efloor
14:36:49 * Brianetta is going to be near a dance floor, if not actually dancing, tonight
14:43:23 <Belugas> soon, i'll be on a concert hall, but i'd rather be on stage with that band
14:45:42 <Sacro> Belugas: i suppose at least when you're swimming it keeps you out the rai
14:46:45 <Belugas> plus, with the wetsuit, it's like...who cares :D
14:46:50 <TrueBrain> hmm, I am going to do some rockclimbing again tonight
14:46:57 <TrueBrain> I love doing that :) But I miss my dancing lessons ...
14:47:01 <TrueBrain> 4 more weeks without :(
14:47:27 <yorick> dancing :') rockclimbing *O*
14:49:19 <TrueBrain> Sacro: please don't do that again :(
14:50:08 <TrueBrain> just .... closing your connection
14:50:12 <TrueBrain> I was all crying and stuff
14:50:17 <TrueBrain> but pfew, you are back :) :) :)
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14:55:02 * Belugas gets hooked on Helicon 1
15:10:34 <Sacro> Anyone here built pulseaudio?
15:12:17 <Czeko> Hi, im trying to mage a mexican cities .grf, can anyone help me? :-)
15:12:30 <Sacro> sounds like witchcraft to me
15:12:58 <Czeko> yeah, i want to summon mexican cities
15:14:06 <Czeko> any suggestions? or should i just hack some other city list into a mexican one?
15:14:38 <Ammler> Czeko: do you have a list ready?
15:14:57 <qkr> can anyone help me: I need to mix 4 tracks to 2, but so that outer tracks have priority over inner tracks? I read about priorities and load balancers but can't understand
15:15:05 <Czeko> hi Ammler, yeah i have 975 names now
15:15:57 <Czeko> yeah, i learnt much geography yesterday haha
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15:17:28 <Ammler> the first value is the propability
15:17:42 <Ammler> the higer, the more it will apear on the map
15:19:16 <Ammler> 7. bit is for something else
15:20:19 <Czeko> nope, but ill read it now
15:20:33 <Ammler> you need to prefix all strings with higher ascii chars with C3 9E
15:21:14 <Ammler> I am sure, you will need that for mexican :-)
15:21:38 <Ammler> if you don't like to bother, you could add it for every string...
15:21:57 <Czeko> yeah, most of them have accents
15:22:49 <Czeko> thanks, ill give it a read now :-)
15:30:22 <Czeko> you are a pro from my perspective
15:34:48 <Czeko> i need to make that folder or only the .nfo file?
15:35:21 <Czeko> guess ill add the values to the list first
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15:53:02 <Belugas> Metallica Pick-up time!
16:00:48 <Ammler> Czeko: I made a small bash script to help me for generating the grf
16:00:57 <Ammler> grfcodec alone would need just the nfo
16:01:32 <Ammler> afaik you can only have 255 names per group
16:01:46 <Ammler> so you need to split the list...
16:06:21 <Czeko> ok, so ill add the values and then split it in 4 .txt
16:07:33 <Ammler> and think about how you can edit/add/delete names later...
16:21:28 <Belugas> feels like machine gun assault
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16:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <sulai> I got this idea of the already active goto button from locomotion <- i'm not sure right now, but it could have been like this in TT original also
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16:55:52 <Belugas> lert's do a little commit for Sir Pikka
16:57:08 <Ammler> Hmm, I should public the source for the lumber mill before I get too much credits. ;-)
16:57:35 <peter1138> "public the source!"
16:57:56 <Ammler> 69Byte and most of them is Action8
17:02:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r14294 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp: -Feature[newGRF]: Add Variational Action 2 Variable 0x47 for houses, Coordinates of the house tile
17:04:10 * peter1138 np: Do Make Say Think - Fredericia
17:05:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r14295 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp:
17:05:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix(r14294): If the house is not built yet, still give me proper coordinates, pretty please!
17:05:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Plus, two(2) rogue tabs found their way in.
17:06:45 <hylje> were they planning a heist?
17:11:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14296 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: there is no case where an invalid waypoint index should be passed to be drawn as a string.
17:12:31 <Ammler> Rubidium, related to the newgrf toggle, I like to quote myslef: [14:10] <Ammler> hmm, I might not think of something, but wouldn't it be possible to store the used palette for grf in the nfo?
17:13:58 <Ammler> it would at least make newer grfs "safer"
17:14:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14297 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix: one could be trying to get the station name of a station that is outside of the pool.
17:14:59 <Rubidium> Ammler: but how? And how to make sure you aren't storing data of long lost newgrfs?
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17:15:42 <Ammler> Rubidium: nfo of the grf
17:16:17 <Rubidium> hmm, guess I should read
17:16:18 <Ammler> well, you should still be able to toggle it, if the coder might have made a misstake...
17:16:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14298 /trunk/src/ (38 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#2214]: "{CARGO} from unknown destination".
17:16:38 <Belugas> like decompile it live, add the info and recompile it?
17:16:54 <Belugas> all those names.. reminds me of the company's name fix...
17:17:32 <Ammler> well, it needs to be stored in the part you read anyway for the GRFList
17:19:09 <Rubidium> yes, we could add that as an option to action 0x08. Though I don't how TTDP should handle that info.
17:21:42 <Ammler> well, grfcodec should be able to handle it too, as it should be overruled with it...
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17:25:05 * Ammler is wondering, why that isn't already somewhere stored... (might be a reason?)
17:26:11 <frosch123> Ammler: there is the dos/windows action7 variable and a actionb built-in messages for that, but hardly a grf uses that
17:27:19 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggs-work
17:27:25 <Ammler> that is for checking, which palette ottd uses
17:27:47 <Ammler> but I am speaking about a bit which stores the palette of the grf itslef
17:27:48 <Rubidium> yeah, but that'd be pointless from now on as it can convert on-the-fly
17:28:09 <Rubidium> as far as I understand newgrfs there isn't any
17:28:45 <Ammler> indeed, but the other direction would be helpful...
17:32:28 * Belugas would like to know how helpfull it would be. an example?
17:33:18 <Rubidium> so stupid users will automatically get the correct palette conversion, i.e. no users with wrong palettes (purple stations)
17:34:41 <Ammler> Belugas: yeah, mostly another stupidy/lazy protection...
17:35:47 <frosch123> you could also rename "toggle palette" to "click here if you see a lot of pink" :p
17:36:22 <Belugas> that is if they know how to read :P
17:36:48 <frosch123> cool, though the tip does not really fit into the popup
17:37:19 <Czeko> im off, ill come back when ive added the values to the mexican cities :)
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17:38:40 <Belugas> shit... found a bug on First Class fcOutLookItems
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17:39:06 <Belugas> they do not take into account the enbabled nor the visible properties of Actions
17:39:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14299 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix: disable 'toggle palette' when no NewGRF has been selected.
17:42:05 <yorick> hm, trying to fix FS#2268 is harder than I thought it would be
17:42:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r14300 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
17:42:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-09-12 17:41:59
17:42:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 13 fixed by tucalipe (13)
17:42:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 12 fixed by arnaullv (12)
17:42:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 9 fixed, 7 changed by ThomasA (16)
17:42:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changed by habell (1)
17:42:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 5 fixed by kristjans (5)
17:44:50 <Rubidium> "I" have about 30 bugs...
17:45:06 <welshdragon> the desyncs that are happening on the 0.6.2 servers can also be caused by scrolling very very fast
17:45:48 <Rubidium> and how did you prove it is caused by scrolling and not by something else?
17:46:07 <welshdragon> as the known bug with desyncs didn't happen
17:46:14 <welshdragon> there were no jams
17:46:19 <yorick> how did you prove it wasn't with drawing something?
17:47:19 <welshdragon> look, connect to brianetta's standard, i'l join, and scroll around fast, if it desyncs i've proved my point, if it doesn'tthen i'll shut up :P
17:48:50 <peter1138> Conclusive bug reporting.
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17:54:52 <peter1138> I'd say it's one of the millions of traffic jams, personally.
18:01:20 <yorick> since when do traffic jams cause desyncs?
18:08:09 <Belugas> you mean you do not know, yorick?
18:08:18 <Belugas> they always did, back to 0.3.4
18:08:35 <qkr> how do I make it so that my stations get goods from further away?
18:08:58 <yorick> Make connections from further away.
18:09:06 <qkr> that is this setting "max station spread" in patches?
18:12:43 <Zuu> max station spread decides how big the station can become.
18:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> qkr: you can build station tiles closer to the industry, and then remove the middle parts
18:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "station spread" of 4 means you can only build 4x4 stations
18:17:51 <Belugas> i guess my bluff did not worked :P
18:20:08 <peter1138> # Talking to myself
18:21:42 <yorick> don't hate yourself :)
18:24:13 <qkr> I can't build stations close enough to town to get goods accepted
18:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you can build bus stations adjacent to your train station
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18:28:05 <Indoril> Is there a way for a server admin to get the password for individual companies?
18:28:29 <Indoril> or change their password to blank
18:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that should be possible
18:29:29 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: yes it is
18:29:35 <Sacro> i assume it is stored in ram
18:29:48 <Sacro> so you can dump it yoruself
18:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: no, only hashes are stored, not plaintext passwords
18:31:36 <Brianetta> Desync score table, Brianetta's Standard, current game:
18:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Indoril: iirc there are "autoclean protected" and "autoclean unprotected" settings, where the first one removes a password after a certain time, and the second one removes the company completely
18:32:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but Brianetta is probably better with that kind of problem ;)
18:32:33 <Brianetta> Indoril: Which version are you using?
18:32:45 <Brianetta> You can't get the passwords
18:32:52 <Brianetta> Even if you examine the RAM, they're hashed
18:33:05 <Brianetta> There are two ways to remove passwords
18:33:15 <Brianetta> One of these is to reload the game. This loses all the passwords.
18:33:20 <Indoril> well I dont really want them, but I've got a couple of users who can't remember their passwords after a nights sleep
18:33:35 <Brianetta> The other is to set autoclean on, and wait for a while.
18:33:57 <Brianetta> Turn autoclean off, though, because at most 10 game years later they'll be deleted
18:34:50 <Brianetta> you can turn it on and off at the game console
18:35:04 <Brianetta> set autoclean_pretected to 1
18:35:11 <Brianetta> set autoclean_unprotected to 255
18:35:37 <Brianetta> This will blank the passwords of any company without a player after 1 month, an dwill delete any company that has no password after 255 months
18:35:57 <Brianetta> so turn it on, wait for it to tell you that it cleared the password, then turn it off.
18:36:10 <Brianetta> The players can join again, and give themselves a new password.
18:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> or stfu from the cheap seats
18:36:58 <Brianetta> reload isn't cool if you have absent players who *can* remember their password and don't want their company to be vulnerable
18:37:51 <yorick> or patch openttd so you have a clear_password command
18:37:59 <yorick> or patch it so you can move into the company and change the password
18:38:16 <yorick> or just stop the users from joining server
18:38:17 <Brianetta> Patching openttd can't fix a running game
18:38:36 <Eddi|zuHause> hot-replace the binary ;)
18:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure gdb can do such magic ;)
18:39:36 <qkr> how do I get my rating better quickly and cheaply so I can build station next to town?
18:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> qkr: bribe, build trees, provide transport
18:40:50 <Zuu> perhaps use timetable to have lot of load time at that town if you have any existing stations there.
18:40:59 <Belugas> fastest and safest, plant trees
18:41:30 <Belugas> cut the trees and replant them :D
18:41:31 <dih> adding a second and third tree to a tile that already has a tree has no influence
18:41:59 <eekee> erm, cuttong down trees can make your rating much worse can't it?
18:42:04 <dih> some people just plant trees and plant trees on top and wonder why nothing changes
18:42:19 <dih> eekee: planting trees can get you to good
18:44:05 * peter1138 mumbles at X2... gets my throttle and rudder mixed up :o
18:44:10 <yorick> try closer to the town center
18:45:21 <Belugas> the town is biogger than just the houses !!
18:45:27 <qkr> I built some land-reserve signs next to it to stop it from growing too much, maybe that's why they're so mad
18:45:31 <Zuu> Plant trees for the environment! :)
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18:46:17 <eekee> yeah they dont' like being hemmed in, but generally if you build anything near a town you should provide a bus or tram service to keep them happy, IMHO
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18:50:11 <Belugas> much like devs... they don't like been bugged, but generally, if you build a nice and well tough of patch you should see your work commited and you'llbe happy, IMHO
18:54:45 * Celestar is back from a business trip
18:55:09 <yorick> welcome back from a business trip
18:55:33 <Celestar> still a bunch of bugs on cargodest
18:55:39 <Belugas> lcuky it's not a busines strip
18:55:47 <Celestar> why didn't they fix themselves while I was away?
18:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <Zuu> perhaps use timetable to have lot of load time at that town if you have any existing stations there. <- actually, that won't help with town ratings, towns only care about the number of arrivals/departs
18:57:29 <Eddi|zuHause> waiting vehicles only help the station rating
18:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause> which is unrelated to town ratign
18:57:42 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Okay, so station rating don't affect town rating?
18:57:44 <eekee> why are my trains running around with 16% reliability when they're ordered to service at 75%?
18:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> eekee: maybe the model is too old? or they don't find the depot?
18:58:43 <eekee> one has just found the depot, & the model is fine. Max reliability 99%
19:00:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:01:50 <frosch123> [20:59] <eekee> why are my trains running around with 16% reliability when they're ordered to service at 75%? <- "service interval 75%" means service when the reliabilty has dropped _by_ 75% of the max reliability
19:02:03 <frosch123> i.e. you want to set it to 25%
19:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> which braniac had that idea?
19:03:04 <frosch123> return _settings_game.vehicle.servint_ispercent ?
19:03:04 <frosch123> (this->reliability < GetEngine(this->engine_type)->reliability * (100 - this->service_interval) / 100) :
19:03:04 <frosch123> (this->date_of_last_service + this->service_interval < _date);
19:03:36 <Zuu> The http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2275 patch, is anyone willing to have a look at it during the wekend or so? What I can do to make it sightly easier is to split it into two parts, which increase the maintainence work hence why I've not done it yet but acceptible to make the review/merge easier. But then I only know how to make a first patch and the second as a patch to trunk which includes the first patch + the extra stuff onl
19:04:57 <Zuu> (the patch does changes to the query window system, which aim to not make ANY changes to the behaviour of the program, but provide hooks to add windows that at runtime can change from beeing normal windows to query windows.)
19:06:32 <yorick> what happens if more of them are open
19:07:09 <yorick> and why not make it a class variable?
19:07:13 <Zuu> The second part, currently interated but which I can spit into a second patch is making the query window system more generic by adding a function that closes all query windows instead of explicitly closing WC_QUERY_STRING and WC_SAVELOAD
19:07:57 <Zuu> It could be a public class variable yes. That is also possible.
19:08:30 <Belugas> Zuu, the second part does not really need the first part, as yu can just addd the window to avoid
19:08:51 <Belugas> althogh i have to say, it's clean and reminds me of a few attemps i did on the subject myself...
19:08:54 <Zuu> That is true, did not though of it.
19:12:25 <Zuu> A class variable could be added instead of IsQueryWindow which would possible increase the speed a little. I think the reason I chosen to use a function was that it makes the code nicer and the fact that the function in only called twice every input-loop and we don't have that many windows, to make an huge impact.
19:13:57 <Zuu> Though the class variable would be perhaps a bit more prone to unthoughfull changes of it's value. But that might not be a big problem.
19:16:12 <Zuu> Something I have not looked into yet but could be done as a spin-off later is to remove the need for query windows to explicitly look the arrow keys from beeing used for paning the window and by that remove the biggest problem of having many query windows open: that the first closed query window will unlock the arrow-keys.
19:19:38 * Belugas had some plans a few months ago to allow multiple edit box on same window
19:19:59 <eekee> now why won't trains go in that last platform...
19:20:04 <Belugas> still faisable, but like... i'm too buzy.lazy
19:20:12 <Zuu> Yea, that is quite an issue we have at the moment.
19:21:03 <Zuu> Also adding an edit box to a window permanently as you need to do at the moment means that you can't use hotkeys while that window is open.
19:21:59 <Belugas> i have to look in my black holes of difs
19:22:02 <Zuu> I don't know if you have seen, but I made a patch that adds a search box to the sign list, here I choosed the solution to hide the search box by deafult to work around this problem.
19:22:31 <Belugas> i like the pattern very much, to be honest
19:22:50 <Ammler> Sacro: do you use OpenSuse?
19:22:57 <Belugas> not you Sacro, Zuu ;)
19:22:57 <Sacro> their defintion of "All major Linux Distributions" is limited to the subset that use RPM
19:25:50 <Zuu> But yea it's a bit a question about fixing the edit boxes to make them include some kind of fucus mechanism so they could easier be added to windows or making work arounds.
19:29:39 <planetmaker> [21:27] <frosch123> [21:00:35] [20:59] <eekee> why are my trains running around with 16% reliability when they're ordered to service at 75%? <- "service interval 75%" means service when the reliabilty has dropped _by_ 75% of the max reliability
19:29:52 <planetmaker> ^^doesn't seem overly intuitive to me
19:30:21 <planetmaker> I also always assumed they'd got to get service when dropping to 75% reliability.
19:30:50 <Ammler> me too, as an unexperienced breakdown player :-)
19:31:21 <eekee> that needs to be made clear in-game
19:31:47 <Ammler> planetmaker: he is speaking to frosch123
19:32:17 <Ammler> I hope so, at least :-)
19:33:04 <eekee> I can't think how to make it clear
19:33:20 <frosch123> [21:31] <planetmaker> I also always assumed they'd got to get service when dropping to 75% reliability. <- at least it should depend on the max reliability of the engine
19:34:01 <eekee> the way it works now is practical, it's just not intuitive/clear
19:34:10 <planetmaker> frosch: no, in my opinion it shouldn't.
19:34:28 <planetmaker> I want to ensure a certain reliability of my vehicles. Not a certain relative reliability
19:34:33 <frosch123> planetmaker: So a train with max reliabilty 66% shall be serviced continuously
19:34:37 <planetmaker> Worse vehicles thus had to go more often
19:34:48 <planetmaker> frosch123: yes :)
19:35:09 <planetmaker> ok, that's not sensible.
19:35:21 <eekee> maybe we need 3 service models. Days; "Drop by %"; and "Service if below %"
19:36:22 <planetmaker> frosch123: granted, I'd then be tempted to replace that vehicle by something more reliable or set the requirement to something less.
19:37:30 <frosch123> maybe a tooltip could be added, if someone comes up with a nice, short and correct text
19:40:39 <eekee> I think if the "service intervals are in %" option was changed to the 3 I suggested that would make it considerably clearer
19:50:45 <eekee> I wish I could change the servicing interval of all trains at once.
19:52:04 <eekee> or at least type in the number like you can in the advanced settings
19:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you could, if you had a sensible console scripting language (with access to the AI functions)
19:53:16 <eekee> yeah, but wouldn't really need that. A button to set all trains to the current default would do the trick
19:53:52 <eekee> A scripting language would have it's uses though
19:54:01 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it wouldn't... it's yet another special case that people would immediately want to be more flexible
19:54:57 <eekee> it would require vastly less code than a scripting language though :)
19:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but the scripting language is needed anyway, for the AI
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21:05:13 * peter1138 wonders how to fix non-gradual loading.
21:06:39 <Rubidium> with a dash of coding style?
21:06:49 <Rubidium> and a topping of comments
21:15:06 <peter1138> I was thinking of some random rewrite using phrases such as "it have" or "it do" ...
21:20:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14301 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.h): -Codechange: give the vehicle list and group list the same relative size and the same absolute height for the vehicle list items.
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21:42:14 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, this sulai guy is calling my plural suggestion a "hack"...
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21:58:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14302 /trunk/src/ (group_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: simplify and make the vehicle list and group windows behave the same w.r.t. getting wider (by default) for trains than the other vehicles.
21:59:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14303 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Codechange: make the vehicle list part of the group window look exactly like the vehicle list instead of some buttons being one pixel wider/smaller.
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22:24:41 <Czeko> Ammler: im back, i have the list :-)
22:26:02 <Czeko> i only have the .txt list with the values
22:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i need a german town generator with >3000 names
22:28:05 <rortom__> just convert real town names?
22:28:09 <Czeko> yeah, but with C3 9E for the accents
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22:29:22 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: swiss towns grf has 2k real names
22:29:58 <Eddi|zuHause> switzerland hasn't been german for like 800 years :)
22:30:57 <Ammler> don't need to answer :-)
22:31:22 <Ammler> Czeko: now, you need help to get it into a GRF?
22:32:03 <Czeko> Ammler:yes, i have zero experience... can i use that grfwizard ive read about?
22:32:49 <Ammler> that sounds more for a graphic assistent
22:33:26 <Czeko> then its no use for this
22:36:38 <Ammler> and ask concret questions if you see trouble somewhere :-)
22:36:59 <Ammler> you have the wiki link still?
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22:53:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r14304 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14104): waypoint train list wasn't closed with the waypoint window (crashes since r14296)
22:55:53 <Czeko> where can i test the .nfo once i get it formatted like your example?
22:56:51 <Ammler> you need nforenum for syntax test and clean up
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23:23:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r14305 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_road.cpp: -Fix [FS#2294] (r5033): [YAPF] Only reserve road slots for multistop when they are really reachable.
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