IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-09-04
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00:05:48 <SmatZ> it doesn't work for unions iirc
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00:14:47 <TrueBrain> fjb: sorry fjb, I was trying to pick up a girl .. kind of succeeded ;) Now it is time to get some sleep ;)
00:18:59 <Tekky> glx,SmatZ: I replaced cpp_offsetof with the ANSI offsetof macro and it works perfectly. However, I see that Microsoft Visual C++ implements this macro nearly the same way as OpenTTD does :)
00:21:02 <Tekky> So I guess there is little point in removing this ugly hack..... :)
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00:38:12 <fjb> TrueBrain: Never mind. Have fun with the girl.
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03:27:17 <nicfer> one question, will work the opengfxcr.grf and opengfxhr.grf on 0.6.2?
03:31:48 <DaleStan> nicfer: Try it and see?
03:33:25 <nicfer> oh, if I rename them like the original files I get the 'Wrong GRF files' error but it works anyway
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06:09:53 <peter1138> Rubidium, ComposeWaypointStation()
06:15:04 <peter1138> Hmm, can't see any variable used that would be uninitialized.
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07:44:33 * roboboy hopes cargodest will compile this time
07:45:47 <roboboy> I pointed visual studio to my boost folder for includes and it did not include it
07:57:40 <Kloopy> Celestar: I just got a crash on the cargodests binary build. I was looking at a treeview window and just as I went to click, the last passenger was loaded on to a train. When I clicked my mouse, it was on the space where the + was just showing before. It crashed as soon as I clicked.
07:57:52 <Kloopy> Celestar: Good morning, too. :))
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08:19:39 <Celestar> I'll check it over the weekend
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08:26:37 * roboboy wonders what has changed in the new version of cargodest
08:29:53 <peter1138> Hmm, I wonder if any replacement graphics set would use its own palette...
08:30:48 * Celestar looks at the advantages of "fixed track" vs. conventional sleeper-based tracks
08:31:36 * TrueBrain looks at his breakfast
08:31:37 <Celestar> peter1138: something like that
08:31:46 <Celestar> according to the DB, fixed track costs less than 10% in maintenance
08:42:48 <Rubidium> peter1138: ComposeWaypointStation can't be the cause of the missing waypoints
08:43:00 <Rubidium> as no newgrf stuff is called at that time
08:43:34 <Celestar> :o The Velaro took 25 minutes for 118km on a test run in China
08:44:00 <Celestar> average speed of 283km/h
08:44:56 * roboboy hopes this time cargodest compiles
08:45:24 <TrueBrain> [09:44] * roboboy hopes cargodest will compile this time
08:45:31 <TrueBrain> [10:45] * roboboy hopes this time cargodest compiles
08:46:29 <roboboy> ive been trying to compile it a few times
08:46:38 <roboboy> and its failed everytime
08:46:58 <TrueBrain> took me 2 minutes to set up MSVC to understand where Boost was
08:47:06 <roboboy> It isnt including boost
08:47:32 <roboboy> Ive tried adding boost to the include folders list and it didnt seem to like it
08:48:05 <roboboy> ive tried sticking it in the visual studio include dir
08:48:18 <roboboy> otherwise I have no idea how to fix it
08:48:37 <TrueBrain> I just put it in the include-dir the rest of my shit was in .. and that was enough
08:52:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: matthijs * r14241 /trunk/os/debian/changelog: -Fix [Debian]: Remove an extra ~ in the Debian version.
08:54:02 <Forked> same thing I did with it in mingw32
08:54:54 <blathijs> TrueBrain: It's annoying that the listing of revisions on binaries.openttd.org is not sorted usefully...
08:56:01 <TrueBrain> blathijs: we know; the new site will solve that for you :)
08:56:10 <TrueBrain> (binaries isn't for direct access ;))
08:57:44 <roboboy> no erors so far its sitting at linking and generating code
08:57:44 <TrueBrain> oeh, time to do some studying .. bbl :)
09:01:12 * Celestar wonders whether any high-speed track in Europe reaches break even
09:07:44 <Celestar> New track Nuremburg-Erfurt: Expected cost: 5 billion EUR, expected annual income 40 million EUR. It takes 125 YEARS to pay off :o
09:08:26 <peter1138> Is that subsidised?
09:08:53 <Celestar> peter1138: there is no railway system in Europe that isn't heavily subsidised, at least no when it comes to transporting passengers
09:09:30 <Celestar> Bringing the travel time from Munich to Berlin from 8 hours (1992) to 4 hours (2018) costs around 12 billion EUR.
09:09:31 <peter1138> I mean the costs and incomes.
09:09:39 <Celestar> peter1138: net costs and incomes.
09:10:11 <Celestar> if you want this to pay off in 50 years, You'd need 240 million bucks in income per year.
09:10:23 <Celestar> That's 650000 EUR per day
09:10:46 <roboboy> hm my compile has not moved from linking and generating code
09:10:57 <Celestar> considering an average round trip price of 200 EUR, That'd be 3300 passengers per day.
09:11:11 <Celestar> (1.2 million passengers annually)
09:11:14 * roboboy wonders if he should cancle it and look at the log
09:11:48 <roboboy> or shall I leave it to go for a bit longer
09:12:03 <peter1138> 3300 passengers per day doesn't seem excessive.
09:12:32 <Celestar> peter1138: no, that's a bit less than the airlines have on the route
09:13:10 <Celestar> But: 1) with 4 hours, only about half the passengers will switch to the train, and 2) that's only construction cost.
09:13:20 <Celestar> no maintenance, no staff, no rolling stock
09:14:47 <Celestar> peter1138: MUC-BER (airlines) have about 4000 passengers per day (average)
09:21:18 <roboboy> I wont download the latest source yet though as im on average over my download limit for the month
09:23:55 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Ah, right :-)
09:25:44 <fjb> Oh, cool, somebody doesn't find the "My Documents" folder on his Vista PC.
09:28:06 <peter1138> Switched from a 7940 to a 7971.
09:28:19 <peter1138> Useful as the screen is now backlit.
09:55:25 <Ammler> fjb: hasn't vista the location independent of localization?
09:56:33 <peter1138> It's C:\Users\ for me.
09:57:01 <fjb> Don't know, but you should be able to find the directory where your documents are stored.
09:57:48 <Ammler> it is c:\Users but in germany you won't find that in the explrer
09:57:58 <Ammler> where it is called Benutzer or something like that
09:59:03 <Ammler> dunno, if it is easier now :-)
10:05:09 <Brianetta> [10:08] <Celestar> peter1138: there is no railway system in Europe that isn't heavily subsidised, at least no when it comes to transporting passengers
10:05:20 <Brianetta> Celestar: Tyne & Wear Metro pays for itself from fares alone
10:06:05 <Celestar> Brianetta: sorry .. I mean no high-speed-long-distance railway system
10:07:18 <Celestar> I'm pretty sure local, high capacity railways can be quite profitable
10:12:03 <Brianetta> Actually, Tyne & Wear is mostly alone in this
10:12:14 <Brianetta> It's an example that railways can fund themselves
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10:12:53 <Brianetta> They are asking for government help to replace their rolling stock in 2020
10:13:09 <Brianetta> but generally, they're self sufficient
10:14:31 <Brianetta> "Metro sets new record for running trains on time."
10:14:42 <Brianetta> Not that you couldn't glean that from the URL.
10:15:16 <Celestar> The TGV Est has a scheduled AVERAGE speed of 280km/h from Lorraine to Champagne :o
10:15:19 <Brianetta> Bear in mind that T&W Metro isn't a franchise operator; they're just comparing themselves favourbaly with them
10:16:24 <Celestar> the Bayerische Oberlandbahn is apparently also self-sufficient
10:16:57 <Brianetta> Makes one wonder what the overhead is
10:17:08 <Celestar> overhead of what? (=
10:17:49 <Brianetta> Clearly, Beeching-like cuts aren't necessary to improve profitability (he'd have chopped half the Tyne & Wear stations, if they'd been around, and he wanted to axe the branch line it replaces)
10:18:31 <Celestar> Brianetta: competition and a basic sense of market economy is needed
10:18:38 <Brianetta> The big industrial revolution companies showed that railways could be private and profitable
10:19:12 <Brianetta> They had competition, but not as much as you might think. There really was only one way to get from London to Newcastle.
10:19:57 <Brianetta> Trouble with railways in Britain is that there's an outsourcing culture
10:20:06 <Celestar> if I offer the customers an 6h-ticket from Munich to Berlin for 220 EUR round trip, and the airline wants the same price for a 1-hour flight, I have a problem.
10:20:11 <Brianetta> Why do something yourself if you can pay some other company to do it?
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10:20:46 <Celestar> Brianetta: the question should be: why pay something your self if you can make the taxpayers pay it
10:20:52 <Brianetta> Airlines charging like that will be lucky to continue operating more than ten years
10:21:10 <Celestar> Brianetta: 220 EUR for Munich-Berlin is expensive
10:21:19 <Celestar> I've been on the route for half that price
10:21:25 <Brianetta> It's comparable to our top fares
10:21:37 <Rubidium> Celestar: ofcourse the plane takes off at the moment and place you want to enter (like central Munich) it and lands at the destination you need to be (like central Berlin)
10:21:45 <Brianetta> Newcastle to London, if you buy the ticket that morning, is a £140 return ticket
10:21:55 <Celestar> Rubidium: I don't live on the station either.
10:22:02 <Brianetta> If you buy in advance, you *might* be able to get two £19 singles
10:22:10 <Celestar> Rubidium: plus 6 hour gives me 5 hours time ahead
10:22:17 <roboboy> where are the lang files placed after a compile
10:22:49 <Celestar> roboboy: search for .lng?=
10:23:02 <Brianetta> Last time I used an aeroplane, the 40 minute flight required check-in at least an hour in advance.
10:23:22 <Celestar> Rubidium: I need 1.5 hours overhead using a plane compared to a train.
10:23:28 <Brianetta> *and* I couldn't take some stuff.
10:23:34 <Celestar> thus, the Train should be no more than 2 hours slower for the trip
10:23:40 <Brianetta> Can't take a bottle of pop
10:23:57 <Brianetta> Can't take my PC tools
10:23:59 <Celestar> results: Munich-Berlin should take around 3 hours. Which results in an average speed of less than 200km/h. This should be doable.
10:24:21 <Brianetta> Well, I can if I check in luggage, but that adds another hour
10:24:32 <Celestar> but sorry, 5.5 hours is ridiculous.
10:25:03 <Brianetta> It's the same as the UK
10:25:04 <Celestar> bring that to 3, or 3.5 hours, and they have my business.
10:26:43 <Celestar> but the relation price<->trip time isn't right.
10:26:59 <Rubidium> yeah, 220 euros is too much
10:27:29 <Celestar> Rubidium: not for 3 hours.
10:27:47 <Celestar> ok there ARE cheaper railway tickets
10:27:54 <Celestar> but then you're bound to a special train
10:28:01 <Celestar> and can't use whichever you want
10:28:47 <Celestar> DB has managed to abolish everything that gave them an advantage over airlines: Large tables, compartments, a simple fare system and utmost flexibility for the customers.
10:29:05 <Rubidium> Celestar: maybe I'm spoiled by the Japanese system
10:29:38 <Celestar> Today, you sit cramped with 200 other people in a thin aluminum tube, have a stupid table in front of you which is unsuitable for work, have a fare system that no one understands are are mostly bound to a single train with your ticket.
10:29:58 <Celestar> They have REALLY managed what they always advertised: "Flying at level 0".. yeah
10:30:15 <Celestar> thing is: When the train "flies" at 100km/h, no one is interested
10:30:59 <Celestar> well what do you expect. the CEO was a for executive of Airbus ;)
10:31:43 <TrueBrain> the most boring class ever ... a chinese trying to talk english, which of course is totally un-understandable ..
10:33:47 <TrueBrain> and I want an iphone, but my contract isn't expired yet .. what does a person have to do to make that happen :(
10:34:12 <Rubidium> Celestar: in Japan you can take all JR trains except the fastest Shinkansens in a single week for a mere 180 euro (only for foreigners though); difference between fastest and the rest is 1 hour on a 6 hour 1200 km trip. A single for the fastest costs 142.50 euro and for the slower one 138.70 euro
10:35:30 <Rubidium> and JR's route planner says that by plane it takes you 4 hours (with 30 minutes checkin and checkout) for 240 euros
10:36:18 <Rubidium> (though as foreigner you could do that trip by plane for less than 100 euros)
10:37:06 <Rubidium> Celestar, therefor: 220 euros is expensive for a ICE at regional speeds
10:39:46 <Rubidium> cheapest for that trip is 86.80 euro which takes you 27.5 hours (of which 6 hours is waiting because regular trains don't run at night)
10:41:35 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: a) stop paying, b) send them a letter that you died and would like to cancel the agreement
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10:42:28 <Rubidium> and Chinese people trying to talk English can be understood, though you need to hear enough of their "English" to properly understand they dialect
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10:42:49 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: euh .. I am not ready yet to consider myself past way
10:43:38 <Rubidium> and why do you want an iPhone?
10:43:53 <Rubidium> because you like apple so much?
10:43:53 <TrueBrain> because it is much much better than this crappy Windows Mobile 5 I currently own
10:44:23 <Celestar> Rubidium: I liked using SKS in Japan
10:44:35 <Celestar> Rubidium: especially the 3-minute intervals Tokyo - Shin-Osaka
10:45:08 <Celestar> Rubidium: Yeah I heard about JR Rail Pass.
10:45:42 <Celestar> Rubidium: but we had tickets for the のぞみ which takes 2h30
10:45:46 <Rubidium> the only bad thing about Japanese railways is that there isn't a single "prepaid" card that works for all of them
10:46:21 <Celestar> I thought the Rail Pass works on the Hikaris?
10:47:25 <Rubidium> but nozomis are faster than hikaris (or whatever other name they can imagine)
10:47:52 <Celestar> The new Nozomis (with tilting) are down to 2h25 for Toyko-Shin Osaka
10:48:03 <Rubidium> yeah, those are nice
10:48:52 <Rubidium> too bad the track ShinOsaka-Hakata (westbound from Osaka) isn't perfectly straight, so you have some "turbulence" on the way
10:49:25 <Celestar> ever went Frankfurt-Köln?
10:49:39 <Celestar> it's Germany's only serious high-speed rail.
10:49:47 <Celestar> but it's classified as "Steep Track"
10:50:00 <Celestar> no other European Train than the ICE3 can go there because of the slope
10:50:05 <Celestar> it feels like a roller-coaster (=
10:50:43 <Celestar> plus it has rather low curve radii for 300km/h
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10:51:23 <Celestar> normally 300km/h rails have 4000m
10:51:35 *** DevServer is now known as Ammler
10:51:39 <Rubidium> only Berlin-Hengelo (and some smaller stuff near Berlin)
10:52:14 <Rubidium> Celestar: ShinKobe-Hiroshima is also a rollercoaster with flashing lights (the amount of tunnels is really enormous)
10:53:05 <roboboy> yey my openttd cargodest compile worked
10:53:19 <roboboy> it has a revision of rev000 though
10:53:46 <Celestar> Rubidium: Ebensfeld-Erfurt (if EVER built) will have >50% tunnels
10:54:25 <roboboy> is that what the revision for a self compiled cargodest should be?
10:55:54 <roboboy> h05a5279f is the one I compiled
10:56:21 <Rubidium> roboboy: did you use mercurial to make your local repository or did you download some source zip?
10:57:03 <roboboy> source zip of binaries.openttd.org/custom/cargodest
10:57:34 <Rubidium> there goes any hope of OpenTTD properly detecting the revision as that information isn't stored anywhere in that zip
10:58:04 <roboboy> does it matter that it doesnt have a revision number?
10:58:20 <Rubidium> if you just want to play with it locally not really
10:58:48 <Ammler> roboboy: you might join us at our MP test game :-)
10:59:12 <roboboy> I can join later tomorrow night ausie time
10:59:14 <Ammler> ./configure --revision=h05a5279f
10:59:55 <roboboy> im using MSVC. Will ./configure work?
11:00:19 <Ammler> but I am sure, it has something similar
11:00:25 <roboboy> what version is the game runing
11:00:41 <Ammler> the one you downloaded
11:02:01 <Ammler> it is the newest from binaries.openttd.org
11:02:51 <roboboy> ah as I compiled the last august one
11:03:53 <Ammler> just join #openttdcoop.dev and check topic :-)
11:04:08 * roboboy will write a batch script to move all the openttd files once compiled to a single folder
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11:29:55 <Celestar> I need to find a way to dump all the caches into a file
11:30:36 <Celestar> peter1138: to compare between server and client
11:31:00 <peter1138> Still got desync problems? :(
11:31:12 <Celestar> peter1138: very rare ones, but they do exist
11:31:30 * peter1138 ponders making invalid pseudo sprite lengths fatal too...
11:31:36 <Celestar> peter1138: we basically have them since the destination cache.
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11:34:48 <Celestar> but I'm desyncing after a reset of the routing system as well
11:35:11 <Celestar> we didn't have those problems in the previous test without newgrfs
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13:41:38 <Celestar> peter1138: I'll need help debugging the desyncs at some point ...
13:41:44 *** Celestar was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
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13:43:43 <glx> it's not DorpsGek's fault
13:44:10 <peter1138> Celestar, no method of reproducing them?
13:44:31 <Celestar> peter1138: currently, I desync within about 2 seconds of joining
13:44:44 <peter1138> That doesn't mean much.
13:45:12 <Celestar> peter1138: I should maybe dump the hopcache and destcache into a file
13:45:19 <Celestar> peter1138: other suggestions?
13:49:20 <peter1138> Finding the real cause instead of seeing what data is wrong? ;)
13:55:38 <Brianetta> As far as I understand it, two things can lead to a desync, assuming the game remains deterministic. First, information is cached and those caches are not flushed or transmitted in the join save. Second, commands are not being completely transmitted to all clients.
13:56:05 <Brianetta> Both lead form the assumption that certain information can reliably be reconstructed by all clients.
13:56:31 <Mortal> I've noticed when I fast-forward with tab, the game goes as fast as it can ... which mostly if not totally depends on the size of the screen it needs to render - if the game is maximised on 1680x1024 and focused it's around 2x time, but if it's minimised a year takes 14 real seconds...
13:56:58 <hylje> Mortal: well obviously it doesn't draw into a minimized window
13:56:58 <Brianetta> Mortal: Yeah - fast forward just skips all the delays
13:57:13 <Brianetta> It runs as fast as it can on your hardware
13:57:23 <hylje> and with given settings
13:57:38 <Brianetta> I thought that was covered by "it" (:
13:57:39 <Mortal> well, has anyone considered maybe ... still capping the time? maybe skipping some frames to keep the speed at a decent, steady time?
13:57:58 <Brianetta> Mortal: I believe somebody once considered the idea, then said to hell with it.
13:58:38 <Mortal> oh well... it's not a big deal since I rarely FF, but it is a bit annoying that when I need to watch the game while FF'ing, I only get around 2x speedup
13:59:01 <Brianetta> Turn don animation, reduce your window size
13:59:23 <Brianetta> Most people only fast forward to make some cash
13:59:41 <Brianetta> or to see if they get a jam
14:00:12 <Brianetta> I only fast forward by holding tab; never by clicking the button. I don't want it rushing into the 21st century without me.
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14:19:59 <TrueBrain> found the problem of your disconnects?
14:20:11 <Celestar> peter1138: well, we have one good thing about the desyncs :P
14:20:30 <TrueBrain> if the masterserver can find you, there is a VERY high chance it all works ;)
14:20:38 <AlexFili> well yeah, its on the main list
14:20:44 <AlexFili> just wanted to make sure that people could join ok :)
14:20:47 <Celestar> peter1138: "rn rr" on the server ALWAYS fixes them (=
14:21:05 <TrueBrain> well, can't help you with that :)
14:21:14 <AlexFili> thanks again for the tips
14:21:20 <AlexFili> I managed to successfully configure my wifi router last night
14:21:30 <AlexFili> turns out I forgot to even change the default password
14:21:38 <AlexFili> so I guess I forgot to do port forwarding, the problem seems to be fine now
14:21:42 <Celestar> Rubidium: You know a bit about the network: I'd like to write some function that compares the client and server caches in-game, by sending the cache over the network. How difficult would that be?
14:21:48 <TrueBrain> like 90% of the wifi router users ..
14:22:13 <AlexFili> as far as I know theres no real problems with openttd online in general
14:22:30 <AlexFili> the biggest problems I can see are pausing when a player joins, and empty companies
14:22:45 <Celestar> TrueBrain: not the hardware caches :P
14:22:47 <TrueBrain> Celestar: how big is that cache? :)
14:23:00 <AlexFili> the openTTD port for DS works nicely
14:23:11 <Celestar> TrueBrain: not big enough to make a LAN or DSL choke
14:23:33 <TrueBrain> Celestar: LOL! There are clients which choke over the map already ..
14:23:40 <TrueBrain> so if 1 MB really is the size ... omg :p
14:23:42 <Celestar> TrueBrain: I'm talking about the DEBUGGING function (=
14:24:10 <Celestar> TrueBrain: like. I find a problem. I type some command in the console, server pauses and sends the cache data out.
14:24:16 <peter1138> Celestar, pause the server, save the information on the server and each client, put them together, then compare.
14:24:22 <AlexFili> if I run with a newGRF, that person will have to have it before they can join, is that right?
14:24:23 <TrueBrain> then you can also dump the content once every N minutes (or at desync)
14:24:37 <peter1138> I don't think it's worth messing with network protocols to do this.
14:24:38 <Celestar> peter1138: and dump then to a binary/text file?
14:24:47 <peter1138> text is easier to diff.
14:24:50 <Celestar> peter1138: heh. you forget one thing (=
14:24:50 <TrueBrain> Celestar: that is 10000 times easier than create a function for it
14:25:05 <Celestar> peter1138: when the client desyncs, I lose the cache state because the game ends :)
14:25:12 <Rubidium> Celestar: what about cloning the cache in memory, rebuilding it, comparing it?
14:25:25 <Celestar> Rubidium: that sounds like a reasonable idea ;)
14:25:28 <TrueBrain> Celestar: you can dump the cache AT desync
14:25:52 <AlexFili> do many people have the TTO alternative graphics patch to replace toyland?
14:26:00 <AlexFili> just wondering if a Mars Server is worthwile
14:26:42 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: that's not very useful as the cache got most likely corrupted very badly already
14:27:22 <Rubidium> and by the time the server receives the "oh I desynced" message it is already a tick furter in the game, so the caches can't be compared anyways
14:27:33 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: he wanted to compare things! Not me :)
14:27:53 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: in worst case even 100 ticks further in the game ;)
14:28:02 <AlexFili> and autosaves wont work either?
14:28:10 <peter1138> Best bet is to rebuild the cache on the server and compare it.
14:28:16 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: 100 ticks is worst case?
14:28:35 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: last time I touched the code, desync was checked every 100 ticks
14:28:57 <Rubidium> that might be, but it doesn't mean the root cause of the desync was in those 100 ticks
14:29:53 <TrueBrain> well, depends on how you describe a 'desync'
14:30:10 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: 20 game years between the cause of the desync and the actual desync is not unheard of
14:30:14 <AlexFili> a few seconds is pretty negligable
14:30:24 <TrueBrain> but you said 1 tick, just wanted to point out that many more time could have passed
14:30:26 <AlexFili> most of the time players build far away from each other anyway
14:30:50 <murray> wow, 20 years? really?
14:30:56 <AlexFili> thats some big lag there lol
14:31:06 <AlexFili> one person going "WTF? monorails in 1930?!"
14:31:27 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I said that WHEN the client detects a desync and tells the server that, that the server is already 1 tick ahead of the client. Therefor the check caches at desync is impossible except when the server dumps them every frame
14:31:32 <TrueBrain> murray: direct cause always is a random which is done on one end and not on the other .. indirect .. can even be the fact that the savegame doesn't contain ALL data :p So yeah, it is posisble
14:31:50 *** yorick is now known as Guest5251
14:32:03 <AlexFili> So, which servers are the most popular? and what year do people start in?
14:32:15 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: true; solvable by cloning the cache on the server every time it checks desync ;)
14:34:02 <yorick> 17:20:30 < TrueBrain> if the masterserver can find you, there is a VERY high chance it all works ;) <-- it does not check if tcp is forwarded
14:34:19 <Rubidium> anyhow: clone + rebuild + compare is much more efficient
14:34:39 <TrueBrain> yorick: as I said: high chance, not 100% guarantee :)
14:34:55 <yorick> checking only UDP is about a 50% chance :-P
14:34:59 <TrueBrain> (the piece between 100% and the high chance is the human factor of stupidity :)
14:35:21 <TrueBrain> yorick: it also means the NAT is working, the connection is up, ...
14:35:23 <TrueBrain> so more than 50% ;)
14:35:35 <yorick> some routers don't even allow something twice forwarded, not checking the protocol
14:35:50 <TrueBrain> AlexFili: this is _not_ an advertise-for-your-server channel
14:37:52 <AlexFili> not a fan of toyland then? :)
14:38:13 <yorick> not a fan of spam either
14:38:25 <AlexFili> spam is hardly the word :p
14:38:47 <TrueBrain> not a fan of advertising for random servers .. we have a nice server-list for that (Both ingame as on a website)
14:38:58 <DorpsGek> yorick: Error: ... is not in #openttd.
14:39:38 <yorick> does @kick $randomNick work?
14:39:39 <peter1138> See, it ignores me.
14:39:49 *** yorick was kicked by DorpsGek (peter1138)
14:39:56 <AlexFili> well it works for me
14:40:57 <TrueBrain> peter1138: register yourself to DorpsGek, and we can fix it for real :)
14:41:31 <AlexFili> look whos talking about advertising now lol
14:41:38 <TrueBrain> really? Hmm .. will try to keep thatone in mind :)
14:42:18 <TrueBrain> register with ... I always thought it was register to :)
14:42:27 <AlexFili> i think it depends on the context
14:42:34 * yorick wonders where he got that bug... "registreren bij" but "sign up to"
14:42:42 <AlexFili> sign up to, register with
14:44:04 <TrueBrain> lol @ peter1138, now I am even more confused :p
14:45:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
14:47:28 <AlexFili> hmmm, looks like toyland servers arent that popular
14:47:43 <AlexFili> then again, its not peak time yet for UK/USA I guess
14:49:09 <AlexFili> so, how many people here have TTO, TTDX and TT(Playstation 1)?
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14:58:24 <Celestar> peter1138: are we SURE that autoreplace is netstable?
14:58:34 <AlexFili> it should be, why not?
14:58:49 <AlexFili> autoreplace is down to the users PC telling the trains to go in for service, nothing more, surely?
14:58:58 <TrueBrain> Celestar: autoreplace? Bjarni code? What do you think ;)
14:59:31 <AlexFili> you can try the forums and see if anyone has complained in a similar way?
14:59:35 <yorick> Autoreplace is not bjarnicode anymore
14:59:45 <yorick> it is froschrewritten bjarnicode
15:01:19 <AlexFili> autoreplace shouldnt affect the server in a very substantial way at all
15:01:22 <Belugas> Frosch still has a long way to go until it is un-bjarnized
15:02:06 <Belugas> AlexFili, i see that you are an expert on that piece of code. Maybe you could help frosch on the rewrite?
15:02:26 <TrueBrain> long, as in, end of road not in isght? :p
15:02:33 <AlexFili> sorry but im going on holiday tomorrow :)
15:03:07 <Belugas> as good an excuse as any ;)
15:03:09 <TrueBrain> I am sure that is the only reason
15:04:09 <Belugas> can frosch count on you when you'llbe back?
15:05:17 <Rubidium> otherwise we'll make a abacus of you for frosch
15:05:19 <AlexFili> my answer to that is [no]
15:05:45 <yorick> what's your excuse for that?
15:06:12 <AlexFili> I have never worked on openTTD code before :p
15:06:18 <AlexFili> but I have worked with C++ if that helps
15:06:24 <TrueBrain> and yet, you seem to know it all ..
15:06:44 <AlexFili> im just saying autoreplace is mainly on the client side, not the server
15:06:52 <Belugas> well... i think you should look at the code before stating that
15:07:00 <TrueBrain> well, you clearly know, so we should ask you :)
15:07:03 <Belugas> otherwise, you're assuming
15:07:24 <TrueBrain> assumptions in general are really bad ;)
15:07:48 <Ammler> that is my business :P
15:07:52 <AlexFili> all functions that can be performed in single player mode are not related to the network server code, thats my opinion
15:08:03 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I vote +q
15:08:55 <TrueBrain> somehow, that sounds very arrogant .. dunno ..
15:09:36 <Belugas> AlexFili, you REALLY do not know what you are talking about, sorry to be a bummer
15:09:50 <TrueBrain> but okay, it is very useful we have an other person who understands and known OpenTTD that well
15:10:09 <AlexFili> I can honestly say that I have never looked at OpenTTD code before in my entire life
15:10:12 <Belugas> even yorick does not make such wild assertions...
15:10:27 <AlexFili> however I have some experience with programming and so I made some assumptions based on my experience
15:10:46 <TrueBrain> and yet here you are claiming to know things about OpenTTD
15:10:47 <Celestar> I'm still wondering how to compare the client and server caches
15:10:50 <yorick> I worte me first patch without any C++ knowledge too
15:10:55 <peter1138> 15:58 Celestar> peter1138: are we SURE that autoreplace is netstable?
15:11:08 <Belugas> AlexFili, that's the whole point of the discussion. Do not assume and claim stuff. You only are loosing your credibility
15:11:09 <peter1138> ^ No idea, I've not looked at the code since the previous few rewrites.
15:11:20 <TrueBrain> Belugas: he lost that yesterday ;)
15:11:29 <Celestar> peter1138: the thing is desyncs happen mostly when we're autoreplacing. Apparently there is something rotten in the autoreplace<->cargodest interface
15:11:49 <TrueBrain> Celestar: and if you disable autoreplace? :)
15:11:54 <Rubidium> Celestar, as I said: clone cache + rebuild cache + compare cloned and rebuilt cache == check cache between client and server
15:12:43 <Celestar> Rubidium: yeah. I'm just wondering how to implement the "compare" part. I'll have the leave out the dirty stuff
15:12:59 <Ammler> a stop all replace would help, else it is quite difficult to disable them and to be sure it is...
15:13:07 <Celestar> Rubidium: since lists and maps have a = operator, the cloning is easy (=
15:13:26 <AlexFili> there are other people who have complained about desyncs because of autoreplace
15:13:38 <AlexFili> "There's the autoreplace desync, which is apparently known and fixed in trunk. My server actually exited after one of those yesterday. I do not know of any autoreplace desync in 0.6.2."
15:16:05 <AlexFili> "There's the autoreplace desync, which is apparently known and fixed in trunk. My server actually exited after one of those yesterday. Then there's the mysterious waypoint desync, which never happens if nobody ever renames their waypoints. Finally, there's the oh-so-annoying late game desync, where late on in the game all clients start to desync more and more frequently, and reloading the server doesn't even help."
15:17:57 <Ammler> AlexFili: we play almost every game for about 200-500 years with around 30-50 NewGRFs
15:18:12 <AlexFili> and you wonder why you desync?!
15:18:53 *** Wezz6400 has joined #openttd
15:19:10 <AlexFili> "It's likely that many, if not all of these, are caused by newgrf bugs. "
15:19:33 <Celestar> need a pause for 5 minutes
15:22:42 <DaleStan> AlexFili: I don't do /msg.
15:22:45 <Belugas> AlexFili, you are AGAIN making assumptions. Plus, you have pasted stuff that is already known.
15:24:09 <AlexFili> @Belugas: thanks for that wonderful comment
15:24:18 <AlexFili> I hope we can become friends :D
15:24:46 <Rubidium> I think you just became friend with his IRC client's ignore filter
15:25:12 <AlexFili> @Rubidium: I care not.
15:25:32 <Rubidium> anyhow... if the late-game desync is so enormously reproducable, why haven't I seen any reproducable case of it?
15:26:34 <AlexFili> in programming a run-time error is caused by a mistake in the programming or an unexpected event
15:27:04 <AlexFili> if its after a very long time, it could just be that a very small discrepancy built up slowly and steadily until at one point the server couldn't cope and desynced
15:27:04 <Celestar> peter1138: I have found the reason for the desyncs
15:27:25 <AlexFili> usually small discrepancies can't be found in the debug, because they are so minute that you would not recognize them
15:28:12 <Celestar> Forked: did you find a sitation where routes got lost?
15:28:24 <Forked> this game or my own game?
15:28:35 <Forked> I did in my own, some revs ago
15:28:35 <Rubidium> yay... for AlexFili's FUD
15:29:21 <Celestar> have you been able to reproduce that?
15:29:38 <Forked> not after you said you fixed it I think.. I can retry though
15:31:55 <AlexFili> "<Belugas> desynhc are NOT runtime errors"
15:32:49 <Forked> Celestar: no "luck" with that doing it like I did last time
15:33:08 <Celestar> well desyncs are logic errors
15:34:39 <Brianetta> Celestar, Rubidium: How expensive is it to checksum the caches (not even crypto; any checksum algo will do) and compare that at the same time as the random seed? Would give earlier desyncs.
15:35:00 *** AlexFili was kicked by Belugas (private is private)
15:35:13 <Celestar> Brianetta: difficult, because the caches are rebuilt on request
15:35:34 <Brianetta> Is that not predictable?
15:35:43 *** AlexFili has joined #openttd
15:35:46 <Celestar> Brianetta: it is kind of
15:35:52 <Celestar> Brianetta: but I have found the reason ^^
15:35:53 <yorick> C:/BuildOTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/cleantrunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: In function `CommandCost CmdBuildAircraft(TileIndex, uint32, uint32, uint32)':
15:35:55 <yorick> C:/BuildOTTD/msys/home/ottdsrc/cleantrunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp:427: warning: 'w' might be used uninitialized in this function
15:36:10 <Brianetta> It could be used to aid debugging of other desyncs
15:36:15 <Rubidium> yorick: broken compiler
15:36:18 <Brianetta> newgrf runtime data, for example
15:36:45 <Celestar> yorick: lol copiler is wrong
15:36:50 <yorick> g++.exe (GCC) 3.4.5 (mingw-vista special r3)
15:37:03 <Rubidium> yorick: then show a path that causes it to be used uninitialized
15:37:05 <yorick> still it should be silenced
15:37:07 <AlexFili> compiler debug messages can sometimes be very vague
15:37:26 <Brianetta> yorick: Feel free to silence it.
15:38:00 <Eddi|zuHause> please enlighten us, all-knowing AlexFili.
15:38:14 <AlexFili> ah here we go, the voice of reason
15:38:20 <Celestar> I need to find why routes are dropped :S
15:38:36 <Rubidium> Brianetta: there are way to many caches to simply check using a checksum
15:38:57 <Brianetta> Rubidium: Fair enough. It's expensive.
15:39:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Makefile:146: Makefile.bundle: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden <- ?
15:39:38 <yorick> glx: you mean GCC 3.4.5 mingw-vista is broken?
15:39:42 <Rubidium> I had some code to test some of the vehicle newgrf caches once and it slowed down the game a lot
15:39:42 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: sh config.cache
15:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i did ./configure now...
15:40:08 <glx> yorick: 3.4.5 is "old" and gives false warning
15:40:43 <yorick> 3.4.5 was released 28 august 2008
15:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> why is there no gcc 4.x for windows yet?
15:40:51 <glx> if you check the code you will easily notice it
15:41:21 <Rubidium> yorick: fact 1) the compiler complains about uninitialised use w, fact 2) there is no uninitialised use of said variable, conclusion by logic: the compiler complaint is unfounded
15:42:16 <yorick> but does openttd support gcc 4.x?
15:42:59 <Rubidium> does the gcc 4.x port for mingw work?
15:43:05 * yorick shall update to 4.x alpha
15:43:07 <Rubidium> it didn't when I tried two weeks ago
15:47:39 <AlexFili> ok, time to test to see if my client wont disconnect this time
15:52:38 *** Rexxars has joined #openttd
15:52:52 <glx> <@Rubidium> it didn't when I tried two weeks ago <-- using individual packages?
15:57:39 *** RehabAbar has joined #openttd
15:57:51 <RehabAbar> damn, i got disconnected again, looks like the problem wasnt fixed after all
15:58:01 * Belugas relaxes with good old Peter Gabriel - Slowburn
15:59:22 * RehabAbar is listening to his Michael Jackson compilation CD
15:59:37 *** RehabAbar is now known as AlexFili-2
16:00:12 <AlexFili-2> can anyone explain why playing openttd would make a router drop out all connections?
16:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> because it wants to spare us your annoyance
16:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why the router is broken
16:01:22 <AlexFili-2> if its so badly broken, why does it only happen when I play openTTD?
16:01:43 <yorick> because OpenTTD sends more packets
16:02:07 <yorick> is it when you query the serverlist?
16:02:13 <yorick> or when you join a game
16:02:16 <AlexFili-2> no, about 10 minutes after i joined a game
16:02:23 <AlexFili-2> but last night i was sure I played for at least 15 without any problems
16:02:33 <AlexFili-2> and I can host my server for eternity without it crashing
16:02:35 <peter1138> Moribund! The! Burgermeister!
16:02:37 <fjb> Some things wont work with broken routers. If you are lucky you are not using one of the applications it can not handle. But if you use one of them you are out of luck.
16:02:47 <peter1138> BT Homehubs are known to be shit.
16:02:58 <AlexFili-2> yeah, BT arent exactly the most reliable of operators
16:03:05 <AlexFili-2> but still, this never happened before to me, with any application
16:03:25 <AlexFili-2> does the position of the router matter at all?
16:03:29 <fjb> Just only use applications the router can handle.
16:03:41 <AlexFili-2> well its a wireless router right next to my pc
16:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> proxy the openttd protocol through one of the other applications ;)
16:04:11 <AlexFili-2> where should it be?
16:04:30 * Belugas puts on peter1138's sugestion :)
16:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> under the train.
16:05:04 <AlexFili-2> 'the train'? could you be any more vague? lol
16:05:20 <Eddi|zuHause> any train would do, i suppose
16:05:23 <fjb> If that doesn't halp buy a better router.
16:05:32 <AlexFili-2> ... but thats the whole points, its WIRELESS
16:05:40 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, one with 3rd rail would be good.
16:05:55 *** Jerimiah40 has joined #openttd
16:06:14 <peter1138> Because three's better than two.
16:06:17 <yorick> AlexFili: only if you have something you want portable, you should use wireles
16:06:26 <TrueBrain> @voice Eddi|zuHause
16:06:26 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +v Eddi|zuHause
16:06:30 <AlexFili-2> well i have a ds and psp that use my wireless connection
16:06:30 <yorick> else, I recommend you PLUG IN THE CABLE and try again
16:06:31 <TrueBrain> for the comment: [18:00] <Eddi|zuHause> because it wants to spare us your annoyance
16:06:46 <AlexFili-2> my other wireless router didnt have any disconnection problems at all
16:06:59 <peter1138> So ditch the homehub and use the other wireless router.
16:07:00 <yorick> then your wireless router is wirelessly broken
16:07:12 <yorick> use the other wireless router.
16:07:26 <AlexFili-2> nah, that thing sucked
16:07:29 <AlexFili-2> overheated way too much
16:07:48 <peter1138> So does the Homehub.
16:07:48 <fjb> Then stop playing OpenTTD.
16:07:58 <yorick> the gcc 4.x failed to compile
16:08:23 <AlexFili-2> yorick if the program could not be compiled, there wouldnt be an exe along with it
16:08:36 <yorick> it failed to compile OpenTTD
16:08:49 <AlexFili-2> ^ please note that the above statement is a bold assumption that is not factual in any way shape or form
16:09:14 <AlexFili-2> <@peter1138> So does the Homehub. < not mine, mine is as cool as a cucumber
16:09:43 <AlexFili-2> if it was broken it would be physically impossible for me to talk to you
16:09:51 <AlexFili-2> I'm not paying 40 just because openttd doesnt work with my router
16:09:58 <AlexFili-2> its a good game, but its not THAT good
16:10:06 <AlexFili-2> besides, it might be full of people like you lol
16:10:23 <peter1138> Your solutions are 1) get BT to replace the faulty router 2) go away
16:10:28 <yorick> I don't think anyone could possibly miss you
16:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> TT cost 60€ back when my brother bought it
16:10:36 <yorick> we only know you one day
16:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i have the bad feeling that i know you for two years already
16:11:14 <fjb> We only remember you one day.
16:11:16 <AlexFili-2> well I was here before, a while ago
16:11:29 <AlexFili-2> <fjb> We only remember you one day. < are you a goldfish? :P
16:11:55 <fjb> No, goldfish also remember important things only one day.
16:11:57 <peter1138> No, we try to forget the annoyances in life.
16:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause> no, blocking out traumatic memories is a very natural behaviour
16:12:22 <AlexFili-2> I must say, I have never met such lyrically talented individuals
16:12:37 <AlexFili-2> I commend you for your excellent vocal and textual capacity
16:12:46 <peter1138> Lyrics would imply singing.
16:13:16 <AlexFili-2> Words are just lyrics without a beat :)
16:13:33 * Belugas brings in his guitar and starts a fire camp
16:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> poems went under the term "lyrics" back when i was at school... maybe that is handled differently in english
16:14:14 <peter1138> Poems are just songs without a tune.
16:16:14 *** AlexFili has joined #openttd
16:16:18 <AlexFili> thats weird, now I got disconnected after hosting a server... that didnt happen before
16:16:38 <AlexFili> I can understand why openTTD would disconnect me, but why would my router suddenly go down
16:16:59 <yorick> because your router is broken
16:17:15 <AlexFili> but every single other application works fine
16:17:26 <glx> an application can't kill the router
16:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> because... wait... déjà vus happen when they change the matrix
16:17:40 <AlexFili> if a banana in the fridge is rotten, it doesnt mean the fridge is broken
16:18:10 <AlexFili> <+glx> an application can't kill the router < I beg to differ
16:18:36 *** Yexo is now known as Guest5262
16:20:05 <fjb> Why are you asking us when you know everything better? You should be able to fix your problems by yourself.
16:20:43 <AlexFili> <fjb> Because it is broken. < obviously this conclusion came after countless hours of reasoning
16:21:15 <AlexFili> I only wish your reasoning skills and knowledge were as good as the witty comments you love to make
16:21:35 <fjb> No countless hours reasoning about your router here.
16:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> AlexFili: i honestly don't have a clue what you actually want here... you are complaining now for two days that your router does not work, yet you dismiss any attempt to help you find out the reason...
16:21:40 <DaleStan> If the router dies while routing traffic, it is broken. Routers are supposed to route, not die. Buy a more expensive one.
16:21:49 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
16:21:50 <DaleStan> Or stop filesharing.
16:22:10 <AlexFili> but this does not happen with any other single application I have
16:22:18 <AlexFili> why would it just be with one application?
16:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it's your router... you tell us...
16:24:25 <AlexFili> can anyone think of a reason why openttd would be intensive to a router?
16:24:44 <glx> yorick: I don't get the warnings but I have the linking error
16:25:41 <Belugas> AlexFili, no, otherwise we would have told you
16:25:59 <Belugas> in fact,it works fine for the immense majority of users
16:26:14 <glx> and it's not intensive at all
16:26:17 <fjb> OpenTTD is not intensive to a router. Your router is simply not able to handle OpenTTD. So either don't use that router or don't use OpenTTD.
16:26:42 <AlexFili> don't use OpenTTD online? I can still play single player fine
16:27:09 <fjb> Yes, play it offline. You alone with the ai.
16:27:33 <AlexFili> I can play toyland all I like!
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16:32:47 <fjb> I just got a pm: [18:30:27] <AlexFili> shame there isnt a 'complete asshole' landscape type
16:36:54 <glx> the problem is because it uses the wrong libstdc++.a
16:37:43 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
16:37:52 <glx> 4.3.0 libs are in lib/gcc/mingw32/version while 3.4.x libs were in lib
16:38:29 <glx> (and the new paths are more logical if you want multiple gcc versions on the system)
16:38:40 <yorick> but what files to remove?
16:39:22 <orudge> hey, everyone, buy some OpenTTD swag!
16:39:43 <glx> lib/libstdc++* and lib/libsupc++*
16:41:02 <yorick> the warnings should also be fixable
16:43:39 <glx> maybe buildottd doesn't use the latest mingw-runtime and win32api
16:44:19 <yorick> not that I'm still using the standard bottd
16:45:06 <yorick> it was made vista-compatible, erased, copied, un-vista-compatiblized, copied again, vista-compatiblized, upgraded and fixed
16:45:36 <glx> but you changed gcc and g++ only
16:46:05 <yorick> davis-: the broken tool noobs are supposed to compile openttd with
16:46:32 <Belugas> translated to "I see" ;)
16:46:58 <Phantasm> Belugas: How is the fixing going on?
16:47:26 <Forked> noob is such a counter-strike/WoW word :\
16:47:52 <|Jeroen|> nah noob is way older
16:48:32 *** davis- is now known as davis-_
16:48:39 <yorick> glx: the errors left, but the warnings are still there
16:50:08 <yorick> they started when the standard libs got upgraded
16:51:42 <Belugas> Phantasm, it has been worked out a bit further :)
16:52:08 <Belugas> i do now have to find proper way to store the numbers to be dispatched for each day
16:52:25 <Belugas> and well as how to fill thoses days more... uniformly
16:52:43 <Belugas> thing is, it has to be network safe
16:57:32 *** Rob-Ankh has joined #openttd
16:59:18 <Rob-Ankh> any detailed information about trams?
16:59:41 <Rob-Ankh> are they much better then buses?
17:00:33 <yorick> hm, why are the standard libs missing all win* files
17:00:42 <yorick> Rob-Ankh: they can carry more
17:01:14 <Rob-Ankh> I guess it depends on what GRF you use?
17:01:25 <peter1138> Trams are just road vehicles with additional restrictions.
17:02:02 *** Phoenix_the_II has joined #openttd
17:02:12 <yorick> installing win32api might help, I said nothing
17:05:05 <Rob-Ankh> do the AI use trams?
17:05:26 <yorick> the ais in development might
17:05:41 <yorick> but the ais currently in openttd do not know how to use trams
17:05:44 <Rob-Ankh> do the AI use monorail and maglev?
17:06:22 <Rob-Ankh> do they also replace vehicles when they get old? and upgrade them?
17:07:03 <yorick> they use train lines, roadvehicles, and sometimes ships
17:07:19 <yorick> they build one vehicle on each line
17:07:36 <FauxFaux> Clearly need to work on a new AI.
17:07:45 <Rob-Ankh> train lines can have multiple engines
17:08:09 <glx> yorick: they never use ship IIRC (they don't know how to)
17:08:37 <Rob-Ankh> I think the AI does use ships, or there wouldnt be a ship AI
17:09:03 <Yexo> Rob-Ankh: are you talking about a new (NoAI) AI or the old AI in trunk?
17:09:21 <Rob-Ankh> pathfinder for ships: original
17:09:29 <Rob-Ankh> although I guess thats for player ships too eh?
17:09:38 <yorick> that is the ship pathfinder
17:09:39 <Yexo> the pathfinder has nothing to do with the AI
17:09:44 <Rob-Ankh> ah yes sorry my mistake
17:09:51 <Rob-Ankh> i'll make a sea map and see if the cpu builds ships
17:11:44 <Rob-Ankh> I guess the AI doesnt use roll-in bus/lorry stops either?
17:12:16 <yorick> don't ask what it doesn't
17:12:16 <Rob-Ankh> so pretty much any feature implemented after TTDX is unavaliable to the AI?
17:12:35 <Rob-Ankh> wow thats lame, the cpu isnt building any ships at all
17:12:59 <Rob-Ankh> theres even an oil rig in the middle of the map
17:13:19 <FauxFaux> You can't have oil-rigs in the middle of the map.
17:13:51 <Rob-Ankh> if it helps, the mapsize is 64x64
17:14:28 <Rob-Ankh> also, using a hovercraft in zoomed out mode results in graphical glitches
17:14:55 <Belugas> looks like we need bigger bounding boxes then...
17:15:11 <Rob-Ankh> the draw method for zoom out is incorrect :p
17:15:17 <Rob-Ankh> or at least, its not perfect
17:16:00 <fjb> We need full vector graphic support.
17:16:15 <Rob-Ankh> someone did make a patch that corrected the zoom draw function actually :p
17:16:28 <Rob-Ankh> they used a simple anti-aliasing i think
17:17:43 <fjb> 256 colours anti-aliasing...
17:17:52 <Rob-Ankh> I'm very suprised that the AI doesnt use ships
17:18:24 <FauxFaux> I'm supposedly intellegent, and I never use ships, why should they?
17:19:03 <FauxFaux> The traditioanl AI has code for building ships.
17:19:11 <Rob-Ankh> so how do you get oil from an oil rig then FauxFaux?
17:19:18 <Ammler> has noai branch support for ships?
17:19:28 <FauxFaux> Rob-Ankh: I land-bridge out and build a train station. :p
17:19:37 <Rob-Ankh> what a waste of money lol
17:19:40 <FauxFaux> LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND BRIDGE
17:20:11 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
17:20:12 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com
17:20:33 <yorick> you could just have done a @ban command ;)
17:20:36 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o TrueBrain
17:20:48 <TrueBrain> yorick: possible, but I wanted to be sure it went okay :)
17:20:50 <FauxFaux> I really need to install an irssi plugin to tell me who just got banned.
17:20:57 <TrueBrain> yorick: and concratz, this guy was by far more annoying then you are :)
17:22:08 <FauxFaux> I haven't looked at the noai stuff much, but I understand it doesn't have support for trains, I don't understand why? Surely once you have the bindings for vehicles it's not that much harder?
17:22:38 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
17:22:42 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +q *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com
17:22:46 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com
17:22:49 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o TrueBrain
17:22:59 *** ben_goodger has joined #openttd
17:23:14 <TrueBrain> FauxFaux: just because it isn't done yet :)
17:23:49 * FauxFaux would love to play, wtb motivation to code at home after work. :(
17:23:56 <TrueBrain> oh, and Rob-Ankh, my attempt was to silent ~AlexFili@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com, not you (Well, you share the same mask)
17:24:43 <Prof_Frink> lazy TrueBrain is lazy
17:25:01 <TrueBrain> Prof_Frink: nah, it has little to do with lazy
17:25:02 *** davis-_ is now known as davis
17:25:03 *** davis is now known as davis-
17:25:05 <TrueBrain> as now his name is Bob .. I mean ..
17:25:10 <TrueBrain> how much more names does this guy have?
17:25:30 <Prof_Frink> TrueBrain: I mean, "@deop" instead of "/deop tr<tab>"
17:25:37 <FauxFaux> -!- likes [...] has joined. -!- men [...] has joined.
17:26:06 *** ManyNames has joined #openttd
17:26:42 <TrueBrain> oh, for the love of God
17:26:42 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
17:26:47 *** TrueBrain sets mode: +b *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com
17:26:52 <TrueBrain> @kick ManyNames and stay out
17:26:53 *** ManyNames was kicked by DorpsGek (and stay out)
17:27:02 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -q *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com
17:27:05 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -o TrueBrain
17:27:11 <TrueBrain> really, enough is enough
17:28:49 <fjb> TrueBrain: Where is your flood ping?
17:31:05 <TrueBrain> "2 problems with r14242:"
17:31:10 <TrueBrain> "- it reports as r14239 in the title bar"
17:31:13 <TrueBrain> I love some reports :)
17:32:12 *** GeekyTeen has joined #openttd
17:33:21 <fjb> peter1138: Is your screenshot with the bridge over a station online?
17:33:28 <glx> TrueBrain: of course, 14240-14242 were not code changes
17:33:59 <TrueBrain> glx: :) You win a cookie! www.amazon.com :)
17:34:12 <GeekyTeen> what exactly does noAI mean?
17:34:32 <fjb> No artificial intelligenz.
17:34:38 *** OdwallaBongwater is now known as nckomodo
17:34:57 <Yexo> GeekyTeen: it's a branch of openttd to create an api for new AIs
17:35:00 <TrueBrain> GeekyTeen: it doens't 'mean' anything, but itis the name of the new AI framework, which allows custom AIs to be build by you, as user
17:35:35 <fjb> Like people from btcentral.
17:36:38 <Yexo> GeekyTeen: what's your question?Openttd is open source, and some Ais are
17:37:02 <TrueBrain> fjb: it looks like an investation ...
17:37:04 <GeekyTeen> just wanted to know what noAI means thats all, and now I know. thanks
17:37:54 <fjb> TrueBrain: They are like martians.
17:38:01 <TrueBrain> GeekyTeen: check the wiki page for more details :)
17:38:56 <Belugas> GeekyTeen: the idea behind it is to get rid of the current AI ingame, which sucks.
17:39:10 <TrueBrain> Belugas: the idea, or the current AI? :)
17:39:15 <Belugas> so instead, use the brain of humans to build ais
17:39:50 <GeekyTeen> the AI on the playstation 1 version is much worse
17:39:56 <TrueBrain> your sentence was ambiguous :)
17:39:57 <GeekyTeen> the trains actually LOAD from power stations instead of coal mines
17:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> may i voice a different opinion? :p
17:40:22 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I gave you voice for a reason ;)
17:40:35 <GeekyTeen> the problem with AI is that it only thinks one step at a time, not the bigger picture
17:40:44 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: I fear we are not able to deter you.
17:41:22 <Belugas> GeekyTeen, no, the main problem is the code ;)
17:41:28 <Belugas> it's hellish to the max
17:41:48 <TrueBrain> fjb: well, we are, but lets not go there ;)
17:41:55 <GeekyTeen> I guess making openTTD required a lot of cleaning up the old code? :P
17:45:04 <GeekyTeen> are user-made AIs avaliable for use in 0.6.2?
17:45:37 <TrueBrain> hence the NoAI project
17:46:56 <GeekyTeen> wow, so these AIs use things like Minimum Spanning Tree? wow, I had no idea
17:47:59 <GeekyTeen> I like the idea of testing out AIs against each other, reminds me of Robot Wars :)
17:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> steiner trees are a lot more funny than spanning trees ;)
17:48:29 <TrueBrain> those are interesting
17:48:51 * GeekyTeen goes to his garden to plant a random tree of no particular description
17:49:57 <|Jeroen|> plant somthing that bears fruit
17:50:24 <Prof_Frink> Plant something that fruits bears.
17:50:29 <GeekyTeen> it bears random fruit and/or random seeds
17:50:41 <GeekyTeen> lots of games use random seeds ;)
17:54:34 <GeekyTeen> any good newGRFs for helicopters?
17:55:10 *** Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggstry
17:57:48 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the italians have different alphabet :p
17:57:59 <GeekyTeen> he gets brownie points for following his own destiny
17:58:12 <fjb> Wolf01 only used a different datatype.
17:58:44 *** Jerimiah40 has joined #openttd
17:59:02 <GeekyTeen> we were progressing alphabetically
17:59:17 <TrueBrain> GeekyTeen: clearly he wasn't
17:59:56 <TrueBrain> fjb: lol! I have to remember that .. IRC is not type safe .. haha :)
18:00:38 <Prof_Frink> Safe typing. Wear rubber gloves.
18:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> statically or dynamically?
18:00:51 <yorick> dih: I studied the code some more, the connection before PACKET_SERVER_JOIN times out
18:01:36 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: clearly neither one :)
18:01:51 <GeekyTeen> anyone remember when you used to delete level crossings in TTO? :)
18:02:20 <yorick> means you can only bruteforce passwords that have len() = 2 if you don't join
18:03:21 <GeekyTeen> yorick: why would anyone have a password of a length of 2?
18:03:49 <GeekyTeen> having a password length of 1 would be funny
18:04:15 <GeekyTeen> it accepts a space? lol
18:04:35 <GeekyTeen> my default password is niave
18:04:43 <fjb> That is secure. A space does not have len() = 2.
18:04:51 <Wolf01> not on OTTD, in forums etc, if they accept
18:05:42 <GeekyTeen> why can't you bruteforce passwords that have len() = 1?
18:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <yorick> bad wolf! <- i fear nobody got that one :p
18:08:12 <GeekyTeen> you mean the doctor who reference?
18:08:41 <GeekyTeen> or did you mean red riding hood? or the three little pigs?
18:09:41 <GeekyTeen> Now hurry up and get me Scissors! 61!
18:09:44 <Prof_Frink> GeekyTeen: Don't blink.
18:10:03 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
18:10:28 <GeekyTeen> Mr Flibble is very cross
18:11:32 <Prof_Frink> Why's it got to be built?
18:11:50 <GeekyTeen> Because the king of the potato people demands it
18:12:06 <GeekyTeen> shall I get on my knees and beg him for your forgiveness?
18:12:22 <Prof_Frink> What do you mean, why's it got to be built? It is a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.
18:12:47 <GeekyTeen> Always take your towel with you
18:13:26 <GeekyTeen> Thomas the Tank Engine is a really useful engine
18:13:53 <GeekyTeen> Remember: Only you can start house fires
18:14:44 <GeekyTeen> Well, you're wondering how much money I have for a station, in all the confusion I kind of forgot myself... so do you feel lucky? well do ya? PUNK?!
18:15:22 <GeekyTeen> noAI > original AI? THIS IS MADNESS!
18:15:42 <Prof_Frink> GeekyTeen: There was no original AI. Only AS.
18:16:06 <GeekyTeen> Thats only what you want to believe
18:16:22 <GeekyTeen> tomorrow you'll wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe
18:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if you build it, he will come.
18:16:38 <GeekyTeen> I'm Brian and so's my wife!
18:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want somebody to build it for you, press 1.
18:17:52 <GeekyTeen> To be or not to be that is the question
18:17:58 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: How did you survive that thread?
18:18:24 <GeekyTeen> I knitted a sweater with it
18:18:33 <fjb> Ok, Ifeared for your mental health...
18:18:57 <GeekyTeen> good, that means you do not fear for me now, i am as sane as Hannibal Leckter
18:19:14 <Eddi|zuHause> if 5 pages of posts appear within 2 hours, in a forum that often has only 2 posts per day, there can't be anything useful inbetween :p
18:19:25 <GeekyTeen> Ships > Road > Train > Air... TAKE THAT stereotype!
18:19:40 <Prof_Frink> Take That? Get out.
18:19:43 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Don't think you missed anything.
18:20:04 <GeekyTeen> by the way, the fast forward icon just makes the program run twice as fast, it doesnt actually speed up the game. TOUCHE!
18:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> besides, they discuss an outdated version of a patch pack... that can't be good...
18:21:12 <fjb> No, really not? But it is the patch pack with the most patches. It has to be the best. Doesn't it? :-)
18:21:55 <GeekyTeen> If you're having patch problem I feel bad for you son, I've got 99 problems but a patch aint one, HIT ME!
18:22:36 <GeekyTeen> router = trouter = trout = fish
18:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you better slap yourself with it.
18:23:02 <DorpsGek> Ammler: rortom was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 5 hours, 3 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <rortom> TrueBrain, supreme commander :) lagged as hell ;)
18:23:03 <GeekyTeen> my logic is impecable
18:23:24 <TrueBrain> did someone took the wrong pill today? :s
18:23:44 <GeekyTeen> the answer to that would be; banana boats
18:24:21 <GeekyTeen> I am neither here nor there, what am I?
18:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that quote looks horribly out of context :p
18:25:22 <GeekyTeen> if my openttd directory is (23,754,026 bytes) how many ships can I make before the computer crashes?
18:25:28 <TrueBrain> nightmare, I vote yes
18:25:30 <Ammler> this rortom still does distribute our pack without permission...
18:25:35 <GeekyTeen> answer in less then 10 characters
18:26:03 <Belugas> answer is 6 characters long
18:26:04 <GeekyTeen> only forest fires can prevent bears
18:26:20 * Prof_Frink fights for the right to arm bears
18:26:48 <GeekyTeen> You gotta fight. For your right. To part with E.
18:27:00 * Belugas fights for the right to save bears
18:27:10 * Belugas fights for the right to drink beer
18:27:21 <GeekyTeen> its official, the Kirby Paul Tank is of no relation to Paul McCartney, take that Heather Mills!
18:27:40 <Belugas> someone has a pill for GeekyTeen?
18:27:48 <TrueBrain> GeekyTeen: enough is enough already, cool down
18:27:57 <Prof_Frink> Belugas: You have an @...
18:28:04 <TrueBrain> (or interested in an other +b?)
18:30:11 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
18:30:16 *** TrueBrain sets mode: -b *!*@host86-136-221-52.range86-136.btcentralplus.com
18:30:19 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o TrueBrain
18:30:32 <TrueBrain> (btcentral is dynamic IP, don't like to ban some random other person who is unrelated ;))
18:31:13 *** peter1138 sets mode: +b *!*@*.btcentralplus.com
18:31:15 <peter1138> That's the real one ;)
18:31:18 *** peter1138 sets mode: -b *!*@*.btcentralplus.com
18:32:04 <peter1138> Hmm, I bought two components to build my headphone splitter... but I forgot I don't have a soldering iron...
18:32:28 * Belugas gives it to peter1138
18:32:40 <Rubidium> hmm, should I do a /mode +e Rubidium!~rubidium@rbijker.net ?
18:32:47 <TrueBrain> peter1138: I still have to buy one too, only they are either VERY expensive, or suck ..
18:33:01 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you have chanserv access
18:33:30 <fjb> Especially with the new lead free solder...
18:33:45 <Belugas> i have mine for 10 years, i think and i guess that since it is not falling in the expensive category, it would sucks but surprisingly, it does not
18:34:10 <Prof_Frink> Sacro bums instead
18:34:15 <TrueBrain> Belugas: buy me one too :)
18:34:22 <peter1138> I have a gas-powered one, but it leaks, and I've got no replacement gas anyway.
18:34:31 * Belugas sets time-machine -10 years
18:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: i think you are right ;)
18:35:18 <peter1138> Bouncy Sacro is bouncy.
18:35:44 <peter1138> Hmm, which bit is which in a TRS connector?
18:35:57 <Wolf01> I would like to have fast forward on life like on OTTD
18:36:21 <Ammler> orudge: still at quakenet?
18:36:35 <peter1138> Ah, tip is left, ring is right, sleeve is ground.
18:36:40 * fjb gives Sacro a bouncy castle.
18:37:48 <Belugas> Wolf01, no you don't... since there is no turning back, in OpenTTD nor in real life ;)
18:38:06 <Belugas> or rolling back, or revert-last-change
18:38:21 <fjb> Safe your life, so you get it back.
18:38:21 <Wolf01> I don't want to turn back
18:38:27 <Prof_Frink> Belugas: I'd like you to meet my friend.
18:38:33 <Wolf01> only see forward, and quick as possible
18:38:35 <Prof_Frink> He's called The Doctor
18:39:40 * fjb invents a yeti at home project.
18:39:58 <Belugas> Wolf01: message : youth is wonderfull, getting old is... not as enjoyable
18:40:13 * Belugas wishes he could be "just" 10 years younger
18:45:41 <fjb> A tiume mashine won't help there.
18:46:31 * yorick is running some tests to see how long it would take to bruteforce the rcon password, no, he won't publish :-)
18:47:39 <yorick> it turns out bruteforcing slows the server down havily, enough to get a password with lenght 4 in a minute or so
18:48:41 <Wolf01> but, Belugas, a customisable daylength feature would be right on real life
18:48:48 <yorick> after trying to clear the console backlog
18:49:37 <Belugas> Wolf01: already exists : called traveling ;)
18:50:23 <yorick> but traveling doesn't have a patch option to make it affect your need of sleep
18:51:34 <Belugas> listening to radio head
18:51:46 <Belugas> that is for more sleep
18:51:47 <Wolf01> living to see the time flow
18:52:25 <Belugas> easy. heat your clock until it is liquid :)
18:52:51 *** Belugas was kicked by Belugas (can you make sens once in a while???)
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18:53:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Belugas
18:53:56 <Wolf01> mmmh... I want to do something...
18:54:17 <Wolf01> ...to make the time flow faster
18:54:47 <eekee> I am playing a 64x64 temperate map with one town. It started with 3 coal mines. Now the 11th one has just appeared
18:54:58 <eekee> Wolf01: I know the feeling
18:55:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas spent too much time interpreting paintings of Dalí
18:55:23 <Wolf01> anybody tried my swamp scenario?
18:55:48 <Belugas> a cookie for Eddi|zuHause :D
18:57:12 <Eddi|zuHause> swamp should be a terrain type where rails suddenly disappear :p
18:57:47 <Wolf01> if you remove a tile of river you should see the sea coming and flood all
18:58:03 <Wolf01> a tile of river near the coast
18:59:53 <eekee> ahh wow. what terrain grfs did you use?
19:00:46 <Wolf01> the terrain should be the standard one, I loaded rivers and TTRSv3 only to make the screenshot
19:01:21 <eekee> it's ugly without a rivers grf ^^'
19:09:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14243 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2269]: clicking on the smallmap didn't break the "follow vehicle in main viewport".
19:11:43 <yorick> hm, possibly not so good, I can bruteforce everything before "dab9" with abc-order
19:12:39 <eekee> erm, how do you follow a vehicle in the main viewport? Shouldn't it be on the T key, like it was in TTD?
19:12:52 <yorick> eekee: ctrl-click the eye in the vehicle toolbar
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19:16:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14244 /trunk/ (Makefile.in Makefile.lang.in Makefile.src.in config.lib): -Fix: add 'Auto-generated' text when autogenerated, not in template (complain by blathijs ;))
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19:28:12 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v michi_cc
19:29:09 *** valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
19:30:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
19:36:10 <Wolf01> mmmh seem that full load doesn't work very well
19:36:42 <Wolf01> my trains leave half empty
19:37:07 <eekee> I've thought that a couple of times, but usually it only seems not to work when the engine has some capacity for some different cargo
19:37:22 <eekee> it fills up th eengine & goes >_>
19:37:55 <Wolf01> no, it is a steam engine and it doesn't have room for cargo
19:38:38 <Wolf01> every time they leave with a different load: all wagons 10t of steel, another time 25t of steel
19:38:46 <Wolf01> another time they full load
19:39:17 <Wolf01> I have not timetabled the schedule and the orders are set on full load any
19:40:01 <eekee> oh same one as I'm using. it's been ok
19:43:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14245 /trunk/src/ (gfxinit.cpp newgrf_config.cpp): -Fix: NewGRF configs loaded from the config file would always default to the DOS palette instead of the "default" palette.
19:44:37 <eekee> Wolf01: where do you get your rivers grf?
19:45:13 <ccfreak2k> Wolf01, or...half full?
19:45:37 <ccfreak2k> <Wolf01> my trains leave half empty
19:45:49 <eekee> peter1138: not there, nor does it seem to be in the graphics section of the forums
19:46:38 <Wolf01> eekee, I downloaded them from Michael Blunck
19:47:32 <eekee> I guess I missed downloading one of the opengfx files
19:47:57 <peter1138> # discovery of fire, america,
19:48:04 *** nappe1_ has joined #openttd
19:48:08 <peter1138> # the invention of the wheel, steel work and democracy
19:48:08 <Ammler> eekee: newWaterFeature or something like that
19:48:17 <peter1138> # philosophy, the soviets and other events in history of humanity
19:48:24 <peter1138> # happened at a certain given moment in time
19:48:29 <peter1138> This lyrics sure are snappy...
19:49:03 <peter1138> # won't go back, to the days, couldn't even start a fire
19:49:13 <peter1138> # won't go back, to the days, america'd not been discovered
19:49:20 <peter1138> # the transition has been operated for ever
19:49:30 <peter1138> # what had gone on before from what there'd been after
19:50:00 <peter1138> Tune's good though :p
19:51:12 <peter1138> # you and me, are molded by things
19:51:23 <peter1138> # well beyond, our, acknowledgment
19:52:35 <Wolf01> eh... Pikka's industries raise the production also when the estimate transported is > 100%
19:53:58 <Wolf01> sorry, I was wrong.. s/100%/275% :P
19:54:13 <fjb> More than 100% transported? That is really amazing.
19:54:33 <Wolf01> no, more than 275% transported, thats more amazing
19:54:40 <Prof_Frink> Wolf01: Your regex is missing a trailing delimiter.
19:55:00 <peter1138> NEVER forget the Trailing Delimiter.
19:56:03 <Wolf01> I'm not so good on regex
19:56:35 <Prof_Frink> Unfortunetely you had stuff after the regex, so s|$|/| doesn't work
19:57:00 <Wolf01> I tried an hour ago to search on the logs with a nickname and something he said, but without luck
20:15:01 <dih> peter1138: i have a reproducable issue with cargopackets ;-)
20:23:21 <dih> i thought you developed on that branch too
20:23:42 <dih> newgrf's can be the cause of desyncs
20:24:03 <dih> so a bug report regarding a game that is running with newgrfs is not always the best right?
20:24:43 <Ammler> well, if you can reproduce it, why not?
20:25:13 <dih> because i am hesitant to running my auto nightly server with newgrfs
20:25:56 <dih> and was kinda hoping that there were some 'safe' newgrfs
20:26:01 <dih> like generic trams or something
20:26:32 <Ammler> at least the static grfs sould be safe :P
20:26:54 <dih> i dont need to run the static's server side
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20:29:17 <Ammler> it should also be part of the nightly playing to find GRF bugs
20:34:50 <Eddi|zuHause> brianetta is already on to hunting the grf bugs
20:35:33 <dih> then i can leave it as it is :-)
20:38:26 <eekee> oh crap. I can't load my savegames from today
20:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> happens when you mess around with patches...
20:42:57 <eekee> no patches, stock ottd svn pull
20:45:24 <eekee> in fact I think the only ones I can't load are the ones saved from the revision I'm trying to load with - r14239. It's also a nightly, so I dunno if anyone else has had the problem
20:54:49 <eekee> that doesn't load it either
20:57:54 <eekee> hmm the only trunk changes outside trunk/os/debian are trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp (2 changes, one a change to sorting) and trunk/src/cargopacket.cpp
20:59:31 <eekee> is there any way to find what version a save game was saved with?
20:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> err... the latter is very likely breaking something...
21:00:38 <Rubidium> saveload works fine for me
21:00:54 <eekee> might be something wierder
21:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... i thought you meant local changes
21:01:48 * eekee files it, with savegames
21:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think anyone is going to be able to help there...
21:02:45 <eekee> I did some tricky track work in those saves, lol
21:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well, when you can't load a savegame, either your harddisk failed, or your version was changed
21:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> like, for example, cargodest savegames won't work in nightlies
21:04:30 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: you're over-explaining
21:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> # Sin eriol natha túr
21:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> # In úgarnen Mi naurath
21:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause> # Oroin Boe hedi i Vín
21:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> # Han i vangad i moe ben
21:07:08 <fjb> Hm, Fva revby angun gúe also doesn't make sense.
21:07:34 <glx> eekee: check the first bytes in the save game (4 of them are the savegame version)
21:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 00000000 4f 54 54 5a 00 69 00 00 |OTTZ.i..| <- this is what mine looks like
21:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> eekee: failing to load savegames might also be due to lack of zlib
21:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> the 69 there is my savegame version
21:11:22 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: this computer hasn't changed much in the last year. It certainly hasn't lost zlib overnight
21:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> should be 105 (dec)
21:12:08 <eekee> mine has 65 where yours has 69
21:12:39 <eekee> Eddi|zuHause: you using r14243?
21:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> custom cargodest with timetables
21:13:58 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: "Es wurden keine mit Ihrer Suchanfrage - Fva revby angun gúe - übereinstimmenden Dokumente gefunden"
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21:15:56 <glx> and it's like that since 14233
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21:21:27 <eekee> hmm I doubt disk errors would affect a number of successive saves identically, unless my run of luck with hard drives really has run out :)
21:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'm no expert on RIFF, but shouldn't anything remotely resembling the filesize be at the start of the file?
21:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> well... you most likely just cut off the first 8 bytes and pipe the rest into zlib...
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21:30:39 <Elukka> i thought i'd wander here
21:31:03 *** Celestar_ has joined #openttd
21:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i only wonder here...
21:31:27 *** Celestar is now known as Guest5302
21:31:27 *** Celestar_ is now known as celestar
21:31:43 <Elukka> anyway, i actually came to bug you for help
21:31:49 *** celestar is now known as Celestar
21:32:01 <Rubidium> Celestar: can you take a look at FS#2260?
21:32:35 <Elukka> i wanted to try if i could change a 32bpp, as an experiment
21:33:07 <Elukka> what do i actually do with the pngcodec thing? it just appears for a split second and then disappears
21:33:58 <Elukka> my nerdom must be incomplete
21:34:08 <Elukka> because i have no idea what you just said
21:34:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that's because he missed the closing delimiter
21:34:35 <glx> you can't use pngcodec by just clicking on it
21:35:16 <Elukka> i failed to find anything in the wiki or the thread
21:35:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought pngcodec wasn't needed anymore since we now have ini files? (or something...)
21:35:47 <fjb> I would try to start it from the command line.
21:36:13 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: png codec is still needed to add offsets in 32bpp pngs
21:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> then i probably misunderstood some statement that i caught on a half eye
21:37:10 <Elukka> i do need to redo the offset if i modify a sprite, right?
21:37:57 <glx> only if your image editor removed the tags
21:38:21 <Elukka> right, managed to open pngcodec
21:38:40 <Elukka> another basic question... how do i repack the thing into a tar?
21:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> tar -cf archive.tar filelist
21:39:52 <eekee> I wonder if winzip might be able to make a tar file? I think it can unpack them
21:40:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think making a tar is necessary
21:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> it just helps keeping the files together
21:40:19 <Elukka> winrar did unpack it, but i think it can only compress into zip or rar
21:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can just try to drag the file back into the archive ;)
21:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> tar is not actually compressed, only all files packed after each other
21:42:17 <glx> and a header before each file
21:42:55 <Prof_Frink> iirc 7zip can do tars
21:42:57 <TrueBrain> tar is optional yes
21:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it was originally meant as a tool to store several files on a tape drive, that allowed only the storage of one big file
21:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so you pack the files into one big tar file, and then put the tar file on the tape
21:44:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the advantage of tar is, with some magic you can access the individual files without unpacking the archive
21:44:53 <Elukka> ...uh, i could just access the individual files with winrar, right?
21:45:04 <glx> yes and sometime the magic fails ;)
21:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> tapes were invented some 40 years before winrar :p
21:45:36 <glx> we had nice weird bugs in NoAI because of failing magic
21:46:13 <Elukka> the forbidden art of software magick
21:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: you don't need to make a tar, you can have the files in a simple directory
21:47:14 <glx> just keep the structure you get when you extract the tar
21:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> directories are actually more complex than tars ;)
21:47:55 <Eddi|zuHause> only the access is more comfortable ;)
21:48:20 <Elukka> some magic must have failed
21:48:42 <Elukka> i have things setup for 32bpp, i tried it earlier and it worked
21:48:59 <glx> using tars is nice because you need only 1 FILE pointer for all the files in the tar
21:49:20 <Elukka> now i have these grass sprites, the same file structure, yet they dont show up in the game
21:49:44 <Elukka> could the problem be i modified one of them?
21:50:10 <Eddi|zuHause> do not do too many steps at once ;)
21:50:17 <Rubidium> as stated on the wiki page about pngcodec (should be VERY simple to find)
21:50:28 <Elukka> so i do need to use it
21:51:50 <Elukka> glx mentioned i need to redo it only if the editor removes the tags, which i guess it did
22:13:05 <Elukka> now i cant play with industries that dont have stockpiles :/
22:16:17 <Elukka> hmm.. i think i can use the us trainset with ukset industries
22:16:47 <Sacro> Elukka: what about the atlantic?
22:17:51 <Elukka> are there any industry sets with stockpiling, besides ukset?
22:19:15 <Yexo> Elukka: pbi (or is that ukset?) and ecs
22:19:40 <Elukka> if pbi means pikka's, thats ukset
22:21:58 <Yexo> TrueBrain: the urls in the mercurial rss logs arewrong
22:22:43 <Ammler> :-) now we are complete
22:23:53 *** WhitePower88 has joined #openttd
22:23:55 <TrueBrain> stupid piece of software :)
22:24:09 <WhitePower88> DCC SEND www.stormfront.org 0 0 0
22:24:18 <WhitePower88> white power www.stormfront.org
22:24:23 <TrueBrain> @kban WhitePower88 don't ever again
22:24:23 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!~wpww1488@tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net
22:24:24 *** WhitePower88 was kicked by DorpsGek (don't ever again)
22:24:53 <TrueBrain> that OFTC let him in ..
22:25:05 <glx> did he dcc send to you too?
22:25:08 <TrueBrain> first tor abuse I have seen
22:25:13 <TrueBrain> glx: he DCC send to #openttd
22:27:35 <Ammler> might need worth to tell about at #oftc
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22:28:06 <TrueBrain> Ammler: I think he is klined already :p
22:28:29 <Elukka> if i install every ECS vector
22:28:34 <Elukka> my guess is it will be crazy
22:29:24 <Elukka> do i need a special kind of trainset for this?
22:29:27 <Ammler> you can easy add them later
22:29:35 <Yexo> Elukka: the default trains won't work
22:29:41 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
22:29:46 <Yexo> all (big) sets that I know of do
22:30:04 <Elukka> haven't used default trains in ages anyway
22:31:55 <Ammler> Rubidium: is it possible that old saves now per default use dos palette?
22:32:14 <Ammler> (on nightly with the new feature)
22:32:44 <Rubidium> Ammler: specify "old" saves
22:32:53 <Rubidium> what range of revisions/versions are you talking about?
22:33:16 <Rubidium> or are you using nothing more recent than the nightly
22:33:42 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: I've found the reason for the wrong routing with via/goto-switching
22:33:46 <Ammler> and loaded then with the cargodest
22:33:57 <Ammler> Rubidium: yep, didn't try trunk :-)
22:34:08 <Elukka> i'm going to totally confuse my friends with all the new grfs im getting the next time we play multiplayer
22:35:04 <Ammler> Elukka: it is worth to read the docs about the GRFs
22:35:30 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: and fixed it
22:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that is good news, i suppose ;)
22:35:49 <Elukka> real men jump in without reading any documentation
22:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm asleep right now
22:36:05 <Elukka> no, i really do read it
22:36:14 <Celestar> my bed just collapsed :o
22:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> too much wild... wait...
22:36:38 <Elukka> i've had 2 chairs collapse
22:36:42 <Elukka> NOT WHEN I HAVE BEEN SITTING ON THEM
22:36:51 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: I'm alone and and NOT masturbating over the cargodest code :P
22:36:58 <Celestar> Elukka: i _am_ in bed
22:37:06 <Elukka> and it just collapsed?
22:37:09 <Elukka> and you're still there ircing?
22:37:22 <Celestar> Elukka: well, it's just 15 cm above the groun
22:37:35 <Celestar> but I think I'll be off and survey the damage :P
22:37:36 <Rubidium> Ammler: it should work fine in HEAD
22:37:38 <Elukka> so not a big enough chance to warrant moving
22:37:47 <Celestar> Elukka: not really, no
22:38:09 <Celestar> exactly what I need at 1 am :S
22:38:32 <Elukka> "Oh, I seem to have fallen down. No matter."
22:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the word is "whatever"
22:41:01 <TrueBrain> Ammler: well, if I can help you with diong nothing, any day :)
22:41:23 <TrueBrain> (my way of saying: tnx for what?)
22:41:36 <Yexo> the urls in the rss logs ;)
22:41:43 <Rubidium> Yexo: most likely is a file listed in sources.list that doesn't exist
22:41:58 <Yexo> thx Rubidium,I'll have a look at that
22:42:05 <TrueBrain> then Ammler is thanking the wrong person
22:42:17 <TrueBrain> I guess either Rubidium did it, or we have ghosts
22:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> a propos... need to set recording time for ghost whisperer...
22:44:41 <Elukka> ECS is strange and bewildering
22:44:46 <Elukka> i really do have to read some documentation
22:45:32 <Yexo> Rubidium: only thing I found is that table/palette_convert.h is not in source.list
22:45:54 <Ammler> hehe, so Rubidum did answer my question about the dos while he fixed the url, thank you... :-)
22:46:55 <Rubidium> Yexo: the problem is likely caused the other way around (file in source.list that doesn't exist)
22:47:23 <Yexo> I just found it (3rdparty/squirrel missing)
22:47:41 <Yexo> table/palette_convert.h is not in source.list <- that is in trunk, so you might want to fix it :)
22:48:00 <glx> how did you get the source?
22:48:45 <Yexo> glx: it was entirely my fault, I created a diff between noai and trunk and applied that to cargodest
22:49:21 <glx> indeed externals are not in the diff
22:51:20 <Ammler> is there no hg repo for ai?
22:51:38 <Ammler> noai, shouldn't that be easier to merge?
22:52:25 <Yexo> there is an hg repo for that but I've no idea how that should make merging easier
22:53:00 <Yexo> the noai hg repo seems seperated from the trunk hg repo (no common commits)
22:53:01 <Ammler> well, don't ask me, just what I heard about mercurial...
22:53:59 <Ammler> it might just be a "export" of svn branch
22:55:58 <Elukka> holy hell, ECS is complicated
22:59:04 <Ammler> how many vectors do you use?
23:00:15 <Elukka> i tried putting them all on, but i'm probably going to play with less at first
23:04:34 *** welshdragon2 has joined #openttd
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23:09:08 <Yexo> nckomodo: extended cargo scheme (or somehting like that)
23:09:41 <nckomodo> I see ECS and think of Entity Control Suite
23:10:20 <Celestar> TrueBrain: we could use the compile farm once more at some point
23:10:57 <TrueBrain> Celestar: you can use it as often as you want :)
23:11:03 *** Jerimiah40 has joined #openttd
23:11:19 <TrueBrain> (After all, you ARE a developer
23:12:36 <Celestar> TrueBrain: then let's fire away (=
23:12:41 <Celestar> 3 critical crash fixes in
23:12:46 <Celestar> 2 potential desync fixes
23:12:47 <TrueBrain> that is bad luck, as currently it is working :)
23:13:10 <TrueBrain> (testing 64bit debian package creation)
23:13:16 <Celestar> TrueBrain: that'll be ok
23:13:23 <TrueBrain> so I will schedule cargodest after that :)
23:13:24 <Celestar> TrueBrain: I'll try to stay away long enough (=
23:15:06 <Celestar> but I still have no idea why we lose orders
23:15:46 <Ammler> Celestar: will you make additional commits until then?
23:15:55 <Ammler> or shall we update the server...
23:15:56 <Celestar> Ammler: I don't think so
23:16:05 <Celestar> Ammler: not before tomorrow noonish I guess
23:17:54 <Elukka> is ECS supposed to put masses of fishing grounds everywhere?
23:18:40 <TrueBrain> 250 seconds left .. tick tack
23:19:51 <Elukka> im going to guess each produces very little?
23:20:01 <Elukka> or its going to be a bit silly in that the world revolves around fish
23:21:36 <TrueBrain> oeh, I love this building system .. auto-scheduler, auto-job-cleanup, flexible-procs-per-job, ...
23:21:46 <TrueBrain> (Basicly, you only tell it: compile this, for this and this target, and off it goes)
23:21:53 <TrueBrain> Celestar: compiling
23:22:33 <Celestar> Ammler: you seem to have a problem with the system.
23:23:23 <TrueBrain> Ammler: it looks like your hg is completely broken :)
23:23:37 <Celestar> TrueBrain: I don't think so. The system reported "Too many open files" earlier
23:23:40 <TrueBrain> check /usr/lib/python2.N/site-packages/mercurial
23:23:47 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
23:24:01 <TrueBrain> Celestar: okay, that is worse :)
23:24:07 <TrueBrain> (and really hard in nowedays systems :p)
23:24:10 <Celestar> Ammler: try a reboot
23:24:19 <Ammler> TrueBrain: it is a virtualserver
23:24:43 <Celestar> Ammler: maybe we should
23:24:57 <Ammler> uptime: couldn't get boot time: Too many open files in system
23:25:06 <TrueBrain> mostly you are allowed 1024 files
23:25:19 <TrueBrain> what have you running?! :)
23:25:34 <Celestar> Ammler: try "ulimit -a"
23:26:27 <Celestar> Date/Time: Fri Sept 5 00:26:16 CEST 2008
23:26:29 <Celestar> CRITICAL - load average: 29.53, 20.23, 12.82
23:26:53 <Celestar> TrueBrain: no, IBM's backup software
23:27:12 <Celestar> which is a SINGLE-threaded program apparently :P
23:27:44 <TrueBrain> 1024, pretty normal
23:27:47 <TrueBrain> Ammler: what is running?
23:27:56 <TrueBrain> anything sane you want to close? :p
23:29:30 <Celestar> my user currently has 6000 files open
23:30:50 <Celestar> it's just a normal session
23:31:00 <Celestar> X + konsole + konqueror + kontact
23:31:43 <Ammler> I have some defunct processes?
23:31:45 <TrueBrain> where in /proc are the current open files?
23:31:55 <TrueBrain> (I only know it under a vserver kernel in a VPS :p)
23:32:35 <TrueBrain> openttd-web has 2000 files open (which serves ALL web-related material for OpenTTD)
23:32:51 <Celestar> TrueBrain: heh ... some files are opened over 60 times :P
23:32:52 <TrueBrain> the compile-farm has just 300 files :p
23:32:59 <TrueBrain> so I don't see how you get 6000 :p
23:33:10 <Celestar> TrueBrain: for example all the locale files
23:33:20 <Ammler> how do you count open files?
23:33:28 <Celestar> Ammler: lsof | wc -l
23:33:41 <Celestar> TrueBrain: the compile-farm does not run an X server
23:33:51 <TrueBrain> don't have lsof installed on any of my systems :p
23:34:11 <Elukka> did the latest nightlies remove the "invisible trees with transparent buildings" patch?
23:34:25 <Celestar> TrueBrain: so I have about 600 individual files open
23:34:39 <Yexo> Elukka: not sure, use ctrl+x to set transparancy options
23:34:55 <Elukka> there doesnt seem to be a way to get invisible trees
23:34:57 <Ammler> but the dev has only 600
23:35:01 <Celestar> 400 of which are in /usr/lib
23:35:18 <Yexo> Elukka: as I said, use ctrl+x,and use the green box under the trees
23:35:19 <Celestar> Elukka: there's a solid-colored-button in the transparenty options
23:36:07 <Celestar> I should have merged :P
23:36:14 <Celestar> before firing up the compile farm
23:36:34 <Ammler> server is now compiling...
23:36:42 <TrueBrain> bad Celestar, bad bad Celestar
23:36:56 <Celestar> well, no important fixing since the last merge
23:37:04 <Ammler> Celestar: merge of trunk?
23:37:07 *** welshdragon2 is now known as welshdragon
23:37:21 <DorpsGek> Celestar: Temporary Offline
23:37:46 <Celestar> it's just a palette thingy
23:38:49 <Celestar> TrueBrain: well, closing kontact closes almost 1000 files (=
23:39:18 <Celestar> TrueBrain: closing ONE of the konqueror windows, 400 files
23:39:38 <Celestar> the other, another 400 files :P
23:39:48 <Celestar> many many many shared libs
23:40:00 <Celestar> they're all listed as open files
23:40:15 <TrueBrain> Celestar: that aren't your TRUE open files
23:40:19 <TrueBrain> lsof shows many many more
23:40:24 <Celestar> TrueBrain: how do I get the "true" open files :P
23:40:48 <TrueBrain> is in /proc somewhere
23:41:06 <TrueBrain> as I said, I can only find it 1-2-3 for my VPS servers :)
23:41:55 <TrueBrain> all targets are ready ... but not Windows
23:43:22 <Ammler> TrueBrain: will OSX ever come back
23:43:30 <Ammler> or is that "unsolveable"?
23:44:07 <Celestar> I'm 100% that compiling openttd for fBSD on the compile farm would be no hassle. so why is macos that stupid :P
23:44:37 <TrueBrain> /usr/src/OpenTTD/compile/src/station_gui.cpp: In member function 'virtual void StationViewWindow::OnClick(Point, int)':
23:44:37 <TrueBrain> /usr/src/OpenTTD/compile/src/station_gui.cpp:1074: warning: 'offset' may be used uninitialized in this function
23:44:40 <Celestar> Ammler: start new server?
23:44:55 <Ammler> Celestar: still compiling
23:44:59 <TrueBrain> (for a change, MSVC is NOT complaining about that)
23:45:34 <TrueBrain> Celestar: no Virtualization Software supports OSX (well VMWare claims, but ... we don't want to run VMWare)
23:45:50 <Celestar> TrueBrain: the warning is syntactically correct. semantically not :P
23:46:35 <Celestar> TrueBrain: I shall fix it anyway.
23:46:44 <Celestar> TrueBrain: no other warnings? :D
23:47:03 <TrueBrain> contains all you want
23:47:07 <TrueBrain> (and all I know :p)
23:47:10 <TrueBrain> hmm .. a FreeBSD VM
23:47:22 <Celestar> TrueBrain: I have one somewhere
23:47:46 * Celestar wonders "was it VMware or Xen?"
23:48:28 <TrueBrain> Celestar: well, it is not that hard to build one
23:48:31 <TrueBrain> just needs to be done
23:48:55 * FauxFaux wonders if a vs2008 and/or win64 nightly build log would be useful.
23:49:32 <TrueBrain> Iron Man is a nice movie
23:49:54 <Celestar> TrueBrain: /proc/sys/fs/file-nr and /proc/$PID/fd
23:50:45 <TrueBrain> 3456 on my workstation
23:51:05 <Celestar> TrueBrain: open files is first number - second number
23:51:21 <Celestar> 4928 on my workstation
23:51:45 <TrueBrain> second is 0, so that is easy
23:52:04 <TrueBrain> 1152 on my other workstation
23:52:12 <SmatZ> huh 344k max open files?
23:52:13 <TrueBrain> (but that is just hosting mplayer and NoMachine currently
23:52:19 <TrueBrain> SmatZ: normal value
23:52:22 <Celestar> SmatZ: maximum allocatable file descriptors
23:52:34 <TrueBrain> the max value you ever reached it is
23:52:37 <SmatZ> I wonder, it is not 2**n or so...
23:52:56 <TrueBrain> that is the word :)
23:53:43 <TrueBrain> Celestar: happy with your binaries? :p
23:53:57 <TrueBrain> I hope we can finish the new website soon, then at least I can make a webinterface for the compile farm
23:54:17 <Celestar> # cat /proc/sys/fs/file-nr
23:54:25 <Celestar> TrueBrain: ask Ammler
23:54:38 <Celestar> SmatZ: "echo $NUMBER > /proc/sys/fs/file-max" ;)
23:55:37 <Ammler> the binaries are alreay "connnected" to the our dev server :-)
23:56:11 <TrueBrain> I love scripting :)
23:56:13 <Ammler> oh, and I wish you all a good night
23:57:18 * SmatZ guesses the third number depends on size of RAM
continue to next day ⏵
