IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-09-01
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05:31:19 <planetmaker> morning OpenTTD-ler :)
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05:35:11 <Forked> gf is kicking me out towards work again.. I want to play :\
05:38:22 <planetmaker> nah, just chat@work :P
05:43:40 <Forked> chat at work.. I tried playing through remote desktop .. but it just doesn't work =P
05:44:51 <Jerimiah40> lol. Openttd should fit on a thumb drive :P
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05:45:15 <planetmaker> well... it does :). 10MB fit well on USB :P
05:45:30 <Forked> I think the smart thing would be .. not play at work ;)
05:45:56 <Jerimiah40> or don't get caught playing at work :P
05:46:11 <Forked> I see you've done this before =p
05:46:35 <Jerimiah40> school for me, but it amounts to basically the same thing
05:47:35 <Jerimiah40> Depends where you work, I suppose
05:48:05 <Forked> at my isp :) I'd like to keep the job
05:48:31 <Jerimiah40> yeah, probably a good plan
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06:15:50 <peter1138> TrueBrain, hg is out of date again :(
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06:32:58 <Forked> at work.. must.. avoid.. forums.. hnngh
06:33:32 <Celestar> at home ... must ... write ... final report
06:35:00 <roboboy> Celestar: I got an autoreply from flyspray stating that Rubidium had moved my bugreport to the cargodest version. Just leting you know it had been created if you hadnt been notified.
06:41:40 <Forked> where to submit future bugreports.. if I should find something else
06:41:54 <Celestar> I wish when people find a bug in cargodest, they'd FIRST upgrade to the latest version and THEN produce a bug report for it, and not report alreaddy-fixed bugs
06:45:29 <roboboy> did I upgrade/have the latest version
06:45:53 <roboboy> I just downloaded the one from he folder with the most recent date
06:46:34 <Forked> I don't think that is the latest though :\
06:48:24 <Forked> e79bdd28 is latest of those two
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07:03:13 <roboboy> so I have the latest version
07:04:53 <Celestar> two critical crash fixes and two bug fixes since then (=
07:05:03 <Celestar> crash fixes mostly related to unrouted cargo
07:05:10 <roboboy> so the folder that is newer contains the older version
07:05:36 <Forked> the latest version is not available on binaries.openttd.org atm
07:06:18 * roboboy waits patiently as a tester all ways should
07:08:55 <Celestar> af0f is even older (=
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07:13:47 <roboboy> ok so I do have the latest compiled version
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07:20:29 <Celestar> compile it yourself then? (=
07:24:10 <AndiK> Ah, there's life on this planet. Good morning. :-)
07:24:45 <AndiK> Does anyone here have some experience in compiling modified OTTD source with Visual Studio '05 pro?
07:25:19 <AndiK> I followed the manual on the wiki and actually managed to compile a exe without errors.
07:25:37 * roboboy wonders if BuildOTTD could compile cargodest
07:25:43 <Celestar> roboboy: I think it does
07:25:52 <Celestar> roboboy: but you need a diff against latest trunk I think
07:25:55 <Celestar> roboboy: I can make one
07:26:21 <AndiK> Problem is: It crashes immediately after startup. After about an hour of digging in the source i found out that it didn't find any working palettes.
07:27:04 <AndiK> Something about a missing name field in .obg files
07:27:17 <Celestar> I think that has been fixed yesterday night (=
07:27:38 <Celestar> but not 100% sure yet
07:27:46 <Celestar> which source are you using?
07:29:01 <AndiK> e79bdd28d8bb from the cargodest Mercurion
07:29:04 <Pikka> Celestar: I assume the crash reported in the NARS thread was cargodest related, and not my fault? :)
07:30:25 <Celestar> AndiK: PLEASE use a new version, I've fixed half a dozen bugs since then :P
07:30:27 <Pikka> ah, I see :) thanks robo
07:31:05 <Celestar> Ammler: there's a new diff for the test server (=
07:31:37 <AndiK> Celestar: Oo-kay. Let's see if I can patch advanced timetables on a newer version... But first I want to see if it runs at all.
07:32:15 <Celestar> AndiK: k, but the e79b version doesn't have the obg fix afaik
07:32:36 <Ammler> Celestar: the one you posted to roboboy?
07:33:21 <AndiK> Cele: Oh. I thought it was a faulty orig_win.obg, since peter just posted a link ^^
07:34:05 <AndiK> Okay then... Going back to zero.
07:34:14 <AndiK> Thanks for you help, already. :-)
07:34:57 <Ammler> those obg files confuse me a little bit, in docs is written, it is case sensitive, but the obg for originals isn't case sensitive...
07:36:05 <Rubidium> Ammler: it you use TRGR.GRF and trgr.grf in a .obg-file it will not work, ergo it is case sensitive
07:36:07 * roboboy makes sure he has .net framework 2
07:36:24 <AndiK> Um... If I don't give hg any info about what revision to clone, it'll take the most current, right?
07:36:40 <Rubidium> filenames on windows aren't case sensitive anyways (and we "hack" a little case insensitivity into the unix builds)
07:37:03 <Celestar> what EXACTLY are obg files?
07:37:09 <Celestar> never interacted with them in any way
07:38:08 <Ammler> Celestar: introduced yesterday for e
07:38:16 <Ammler> replacing original GRFs
07:39:28 * peter1138 hmms at the bugs in the newgrf gui update patch.
07:39:42 <Celestar> Ammler: maybe I should hide in my cargodest branch again :P
07:40:46 <Ammler> well, I am quite interested in GRFs things, so I like to look in such things deeper :-)
07:42:12 <Celestar> Forked: I _don't_ understand the crash of yours :P
07:45:31 <AndiK> Um, ah, err... I think I have to ask another rather stupid question.
07:46:25 <AndiK> Where do the [language].txt files hide? Don't they get cloned together with the rest of the source? I'm a bit confused right now...
07:46:55 <Ammler> Celestar: didn't you commit last changes?
07:47:06 <Ammler> last svn on the openttd.org repo is 211
07:47:46 <AndiK> Urghl. Okay, part of the question is resolved.
07:48:13 <Celestar> AndiK: [language].txt files are converted to [language].lng during the compile process. The text files are not needed by the binary
07:49:27 <Celestar> the lngs are basically a binary version of the language file
07:50:01 <roboboy> hm BuildOTTD is not working its giving me erors. it erors connecting to the svn server
07:50:25 <Celestar> roboboy: did you use the correct server?
07:50:34 <Ammler> oh, the other commits aren't in trunk...
07:51:14 <roboboy> what is the correct server? svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk is what the wiki says
07:51:56 <Rubidium> yes, and it works for me
07:52:09 <Ammler> for me too, just used it...
07:52:46 <Ammler> Celestar: server is up2date :-)
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07:53:25 <roboboy> what is the latest nightly?
07:53:31 <AndiK> Huh. Children exploring the world... today: The difference between SVN patch files and those for Mercurion. The Million Dollar Question: Is it easier to harras someone for a Mercurion file of his patch or rather convert it by hand? (As fas as the latter is possible at all...)
07:54:24 <Forked> Celestar: did you manage to reproduce it?
07:54:35 <Celestar> Forked: the crash-after-save? sure.
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07:55:03 <Celestar> Forked: I have no idea why it crashes and I have no idea why it is related to cargodest in any way. It's nowhere near the cargodest code, but it doesn't crash in trunk
07:55:13 <Celestar> v->first should NEVER be 0 in the first place
07:55:26 * Forked makes the impossible possible :)
07:55:44 <Forked> also I have what you can call "brown fingers" .. every plant I touch dies. This might be related :\
07:56:17 <blathijs_> peter1138: Variable sized pool items? That would be malloc? :-)
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07:56:54 <blathijs> peter1138: Interesting thought, though, having an indexed pool that uses malloc as a backend allocator instead of a fixed size pool
07:58:35 <Forked> Celestar: I can try to reproduce in trunk (as well as latest cargodest, when I get my hands on it somehow)
07:58:35 <Celestar> StationID next = RoutingBase_t::Routing(dest->CargoLeft()->Type())->FindNextHop(dest->CargoLeft()->StationIndex(), cp->target);
07:58:40 <Celestar> \o/ hail accessor functions
07:59:54 <roboboy> how do I find what version of dot net I have
08:00:30 <roboboy> as windows says it failed installing dot net 2 as it is incompatable with the version currently installed
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08:01:13 <roboboy> yeah BuildOTTD needs it
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08:01:31 <Forked> first thing I can think of is add/remove programs in the windows control panel .. see what version(s) you can uninstall :-)
08:01:44 * Celestar loves to have a working OS
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08:02:07 <Celestar> I need to factor out this crap
08:03:19 <planetmaker> Rubidium, I try to understand what it does: what is this "base graphics change" you implemented over the weekend?
08:03:48 <planetmaker> Is it basically a way to get OpenGFX replace the original grf from TTDX? So we could have a completely independent game? :)
08:04:27 <Rubidium> planetmaker: exactly
08:04:35 <Rubidium> in a configurable and manageable way
08:04:43 <planetmaker> wow, nice! Congratulations :)
08:05:09 <Ammler> it will still take some time until the replacment is finished
08:05:18 <roboboy> will he old TTD files still work if say someone wanted to use them?
08:06:09 <planetmaker> What I don't quite get: what's the fundamental difference between the obg files and the grf. Is it a new file type introduced for the base grf?
08:06:31 <planetmaker> Or is it just to make sure that the base grf are not confused with newgrf?
08:06:56 * planetmaker has very limited understanding of grf handling :S
08:07:44 <planetmaker> Ah, I didn't see that so far.
08:08:07 <Ammler> obg ist to define, which files you like to use for base graphics...
08:09:22 <Ammler> you can see the different types with -h to use them with -I :-)
08:09:41 <planetmaker> ah... I saw. But now I start to comprehend :) Thx
08:09:55 <AndiK> Yay. My new binary doesn't crash anymore! Instead, it quits telling me that it couldn't find any base graphics - which shouldn't be, because I copied the whole bin folder and the exe into an existing installation that has worked perfectly before.
08:10:37 <AndiK> All the original grfs are there - I've checked.
08:10:37 <Celestar> AndiK: including the original TTD files?
08:10:51 <Ammler> AndiK: you did it the wrong way
08:11:03 <Ammler> you should copy the graphic files to your bin...
08:11:14 <Ammler> if you don't store them "global"
08:11:19 <AndiK> Hm. Where's the big difference?
08:12:18 <Ammler> store originals in your global data dir.
08:12:42 <Ammler> then a openttd download would just work :-)
08:13:01 <planetmaker> Ammler: though OpenGFX might not be complete, my guess is, that this trunk change will at least boost motivation quite a bit :)
08:13:36 <Ammler> planetmaker: there isn't much
08:13:43 <Ammler> at least for temperate
08:14:23 <planetmaker> yeah. Which is good :) Toyland is the ugly side of the game anyway :P
08:14:38 <Ammler> I made some dummy (empty) original GRFs, you can play it quite nice, if you use GRFs
08:14:48 * roboboy wonders why BuildOTTD keeps failing
08:15:16 <planetmaker> roboboy: there's some recent thread on that in the tt-forums.
08:15:31 <planetmaker> Ammler: I'm interested :)
08:15:50 <planetmaker> Maybe make an #openttdcoop base grf pack?
08:15:56 <AndiK> Ammler: Maybe you're right. But whatever way I copy the files, OTTD still tells me that the "name" field is missing and stops parsing the file.
08:16:28 <peter1138> The .obg should be in data/
08:16:41 <peter1138> planetmaker, it does not work with NewGRFs.
08:17:19 <AndiK> Console says 6 times: "dbg: [grf] Base graphics set detail loading: name field missing"
08:17:20 <Ammler> indeed, currently there is no working Replacment GRF
08:17:21 <planetmaker> peter1138: hm, but my guess is, that for a person with some knowledge on grfs it should be possible to convert OpenGFX newgrf into these base grf?
08:17:51 <planetmaker> probably needs knowledge of NFO, though... hm
08:18:08 <Ammler> planetmaker: I like to let that the authors do, Foobar.
08:18:19 <Rubidium> the NFO knowledge required is almost 0
08:18:28 <planetmaker> :) Yeah, right, Ammler :)
08:18:39 <Rubidium> the ability of counting it much more important ;)
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08:18:50 <planetmaker> one, two, many ;)
08:19:38 <Ammler> I replaced all originals with white (and blue) originals and loaded the OpenGFX as usual NewGRFs
08:20:04 <planetmaker> Two thumbs up for you guys. You're making incredibly fast progress :)
08:20:08 <Ammler> if you use blue (transparent) originals, you don't see the missing things... :-)
08:20:49 <planetmaker> He :) Ghost things... they're there... but you cannot see it. Permanent transparency ;)
08:21:12 <Ammler> something like road lights and some houses
08:21:22 <Ammler> which you don't need if you use NewGRFs
08:22:24 <peter1138> I shall continue to hope that the OpenGFX base graphics will be made properly.
08:22:26 <Ammler> so my conclusion is: #openttdcoop games are already playable without originals :-)
08:22:43 <planetmaker> :) as any other game then would be.
08:23:04 <planetmaker> peter1138: we all shall continue to hope that :)
08:23:04 <Ammler> currently you need NewGRFs to support it :-)
08:23:26 <peter1138> Rubidium, can a 'null' base graphics set be made, for dedicated servers?
08:24:00 <Ammler> I could give you mine...
08:24:34 <peter1138> No, I mean a proper one.
08:24:34 <roboboy> the fix gets the source but does not compile
08:24:41 <Ammler> peter1138: that should already be possible...
08:25:05 <roboboy> the fix for BuildOTTD
08:25:14 <AndiK> I know what the problem was!
08:25:17 <roboboy> it gets everything but will not download
08:25:27 <Rubidium> peter1138: I reckon one can do that
08:25:31 <roboboy> hm I geuse ill have to leave it alone
08:25:36 <AndiK> The CR/LF are broken/missing in the .obg files
08:25:58 <peter1138> roboboy, it's still spelled guess.
08:26:01 <AndiK> After correcting them manually, the game starts nice :-)
08:26:08 <roboboy> unless I can get to compile c++ later with a compiler
08:26:27 <roboboy> I dont have time to work out how to compile with a compiler
08:26:48 <Ammler> AndiK: so you are the first windows user using the new nightly... :-)
08:26:53 <roboboy> but I do not have time
08:29:32 <peter1138> Or someone who can make the hg repo respect reality.
08:30:21 <planetmaker> reality sometimes is a merciless bitch ;)
08:33:09 <roboboy> peter did you get told that cargodest has a version on flyspray
08:33:24 <peter1138> I saw you mention it earlier.
08:36:00 <AndiK> How can I get hg to save a diff of certain files?
08:36:28 <Celestar> hg diff list_of_files
08:36:46 <AndiK> And where does it save this diff to?
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08:37:18 <AndiK> hg diff list_of_files >>blah.diff?
08:37:55 <Ammler> 1 is better, else you might have doubles if you do it 2. time :-)
08:38:15 <AndiK> Oh, yes. >> was append...
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08:41:42 <planetmaker> :) stupid windows which requires double confirmation for new lines :)
08:42:16 <AndiK> In the olden times: "You just hit return. Do you really want to start a new line? Y/N"
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08:42:38 <Forked> "Did you press Y by accident?"
08:47:22 <AndiK> Hm. Is there a big difference for the end user between a debug and a release exe?
08:49:17 <Rubidium> AndiK: depending on the compiler you compile with and the size of the game there could be a big difference (primarily in speed)
08:50:54 <AndiK> How can I get only certain files from the repo?
08:52:14 <Celestar> hg clone url:///full/url/to/file somefile?
08:53:51 <Ammler> AndiK: but you might use revert...
08:57:16 <AndiK> Rubi: Mercurion doesn't find the ini.cpp in your diff.
08:57:52 <peter1138> It's Mercurial, by the way.
08:57:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14215 /trunk/src/signs_gui.cpp: -Cleanup (r13866): Strange line wrapping...
08:58:08 <peter1138> Unless there's some other program called Mercurion :o
08:58:09 <AndiK> Mercurial, Mercurion... All the same. ^^
08:58:27 <AndiK> Maybe I should stick with "hg" - that's easy to remember.
08:59:10 <Rubidium> AndiK: then apply it using patch
09:00:32 * Celestar thinks we ought to trunkify cargodest asap, otherwise we'll be drowned in stuff in the channel (=
09:01:23 <Rubidium> AndiK: the application that is called patch
09:02:58 <AndiK> And where do I find that? I'm sorry for asking all those stupid questions. ^_^
09:04:29 <AndiK> Ah. I'll have a try with the TortoiseSVN patch function
09:05:19 <reldred> Celestar: Yes. Hurry the hell up ;)
09:05:44 <AndiK> Aye. TortoiseSVN did its job
09:06:56 <AndiK> In the beginning, it's hard to get through all the versioning systems and their capabilities...
09:08:59 <AndiK> Compile was successful.
09:10:06 <AndiK> Nope, the parser patch doesn't work.
09:11:07 <Rubidium> what newlines does that file have then?
09:11:23 <Rubidium> it isn't '\n', otherwise it'd've worked
09:11:45 <Rubidium> and '\r\n' should've worked too because '\n' works (at least here)
09:12:13 <AndiK> Rubi: How do I find that out?
09:12:20 <Rubidium> so it would be '\r' which would mean you're using an ancient mac (which can't run OpenTTD)
09:12:28 <Rubidium> use a hexeditor or so?
09:19:08 <Rubidium> as it works without a problem here
09:24:02 <planetmaker> AndiK: You tried it with your patched obj files?
09:24:31 <planetmaker> or the wrong binary?
09:24:51 <planetmaker> For me personally it would be quite likely to do it wrong that way :P
09:26:18 <AndiK> I applied Rubidium's patch, then compiled a new binary and recovered the "broken" .obg files.
09:29:49 <AndiK> Right now I'm debugging the file. Question: What is ftell (line 146 in ini.cpp) supposed to do? The parser scans the first line of the file only up to the ; sign. This is intended, I think. In the next call to ReadLine, it seems that the parser thinks that the EOF has been reached and quits.
09:29:54 <TrueBrain> [10:29] * peter1138 prods at TrueBrain <- what can I do for you? :)
09:30:38 <peter1138> Nothing, it's sort now :)
09:31:46 <AndiK> if ((size_t)ftell(file) >= file_end) return false; // ftell returns -30. file_end is 860. The function returns false anyway.
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09:35:57 <peter1138> #define EROFS 30 /* Read-only file system */
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09:39:38 <TrueBrain> peter1138: just that 'ftell' isn't supposed to return that error (ever) :s
09:40:05 <Celestar> I think I fucked it up
09:40:12 <Celestar> > bin/openttd -snull -g bin/save/startup.sav
09:40:19 <TrueBrain> nice job Celestar :)
09:40:37 <Forked> at least it's not drowning..
09:40:37 <peter1138> Division by zero :D
09:40:57 <roboboy> what is the difference between crash.log and crash.dmp ?
09:41:22 <Rubidium> .log is readable by us, .dmp is readable by msvc
09:41:42 <roboboy> ok so are they essentially the same info?
09:42:24 <Rubidium> they share a small set of information though
09:42:55 <peter1138> Yeah, you credit card numbers are in both.
09:57:44 <AndiK> Hurgh. That's strange. ftell doesn't return -30 because of an error, but because it seems to measure a position of -30.
10:02:02 <AndiK> On every \n, the position counter is reduced by one. If I understand the comment correctly, it's because the (expected) '\r's would otherwise be counted wront.
10:02:46 <AndiK> As there are no '\r's, the calculated position is wrong by the total number of lines in the file.
10:03:21 <AndiK> Possible solution: Don't use ftell? ^^
10:03:31 *** AndiK is now known as AndiK[away]
10:11:03 <roboboy> whats the best way to upgrade an airport easily
10:11:22 <roboboy> would you say send the planes to a hanger
10:12:20 <Kloopy> You need the "Close airports" patch ;)
10:13:33 <roboboy> but im using cargodest
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10:18:49 <AndiK[half-away]> Aso. I thought it was something with Windows & Carriage returns
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10:21:30 * Celestar wonders why his copy constructor fails
10:22:15 <TrueBrain> Celestar: you should put some love in it :)
10:23:17 <SmatZ> Celestar: maybe you forgot to add "const" to parameter?
10:23:47 <Celestar> SmatZ: apparently, copy-constructing pool items is not a good idea
10:24:08 <TrueBrain> Celestar: why would you want that anyway
10:24:51 <AndiK[half-away]> Or can he? ^^
10:25:39 <Celestar> TrueBrain: src/cargopacket.cpp:220 ... that should be copy-constructed
10:26:48 <Rubidium> Celestar: and it then automatically adds itself to the right list?
10:27:13 <peter1138> Oh, 220 in trunk :)
10:27:49 <Celestar> Rubidium: no, but we 1) would have less assignemnts right below it, making the code more readable, and 2) increase speed.
10:29:23 <Rubidium> only 2 assignments more
10:29:49 <Celestar> it was just a thought
10:29:57 <Celestar> because I'd basically need a copy constructor in the pool
10:29:57 <Rubidium> and why would it be faster if it memcpy-ies the whole thing first and then overwrites more than half?
10:30:16 <Celestar> because currently it assigns all the members and then overwrites all?
10:30:41 <Celestar> but I'm not going to write a copy constructor for the pool thing (=
10:30:45 * Celestar goes doing something else
10:31:13 <Celestar> who can encode me some sprite into openttd.grf? (=
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10:31:42 <Celestar> but I'd need to find my grfcodec somewhere :P
10:31:55 <Rubidium> begin by svn checkout svn://svn.openttd.org/extra/ottd_grf
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10:38:37 <Celestar> peter1138: how could we make the routing-minimap remember its settings?
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10:39:34 <peter1138> Or store the shown cargo types in a static uint32...
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10:43:00 <Celestar> who's going to do that (=
10:47:14 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
10:49:28 <Celestar> peter1138: well, you wanna commit it? (=
10:49:43 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
10:53:02 <peter1138> No, I've not tested it.
10:56:17 <Celestar> peter1138: good point, it's not working :P
10:58:33 <peter1138> ,...,...,...,...,...,...,...ToggleBit(this->cargo_types, _legend_routemap[click_pos].type);
10:58:41 <peter1138> That should fix it.
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11:01:40 <peter1138> Unless it's not working for some other reason, heh...
11:05:57 <Celestar> Enable/Disable all needs handling apparently :P
11:07:36 <SmatZ> peter1138: when CP is split at cargopacket.cpp : 220, new_cp->feeder_share + cp->feeder_share != "old cp->feeder_share", is it ok?
11:09:12 <Celestar> SmatZ: no it's not. I'm already working on that (=
11:10:50 <Celestar> SmatZ: suggestion: newfs = oldfs * (count / cp->count); oldfs = oldfs * ( 1 - count/cp->count) ?
11:11:04 <Celestar> peter1138: it works now (= want to commit it or should I do it (=
11:12:12 <SmatZ> Celestar: I would prefer multiply before division, if there isn't any chance of overflow
11:12:44 <Celestar> SmatZ: feedershare is of type Money, thus overflow-safe
11:12:55 <SmatZ> new_cp->feeder_share = cp->feeder_share * count / cp->count;
11:13:03 <Celestar> SmatZ: wanna commit it?
11:13:07 <SmatZ> cp->feeder_share -= new_cp->feeder_share;
11:13:16 <SmatZ> I think it could work this way :)
11:13:27 <SmatZ> no no it's your work :)
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11:14:43 <SmatZ> CargoPacket *cp_new = new CargoPacket();
11:14:59 <SmatZ> I wonder if there should be a check for failed allocation
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11:15:10 <Celestar> doesn't new do that?
11:15:27 <SmatZ> Celestar: operator new is overloaded by OldPool
11:15:43 <SmatZ> so it can return NULL if there are too many items in the pool
11:16:01 <Celestar> it CAN return NULL, correct
11:16:10 <Celestar> what do we do in that case?
11:16:24 <Celestar> crash, assert or error out gratefully?
11:16:27 <Celestar> I mean what SHOULD we do (=
11:16:41 <SmatZ> :-) I think that part of cargo could be lost or so...
11:17:44 <peter1138> Just make the index 64 bits ;)
11:17:46 <Celestar> I'm going ahead with that smallmap diff, peter1138 k?
11:19:50 <Celestar> SmatZ: looks better, but at least throw a DEBUG0-level message when we couldn't allocate more cargo
11:19:57 <SmatZ> :) even 32bit is most likely to be enough in all cases, yes :)
11:20:18 <Celestar> how large can the cargopacket pool at the moment?
11:20:43 <SmatZ> typedef uint32 CargoPacketID;
11:21:14 <peter1138> 65535 packets overflowed a long time ago.
11:21:17 <Celestar> DECLARE_OLD_POOL(CargoPacket, CargoPacket, 10, 1000)
11:21:40 <peter1138> 1 million packets? Hah
11:21:52 <Celestar> that's a million cargopackets
11:21:58 <Celestar> this isn't TOO much with cargodest methinks
11:22:20 <peter1138> Well, just increase the 1000...
11:23:25 <Celestar> dbg: [misc] [Pool] (CargoPacket) increasing size of pool to 13312 items (425984 bytes)
11:25:08 <Celestar> 32 bytes per cargopacket
11:26:22 <Celestar> 8 money, 4 sourcexy, 4 loadedatxy, 2 source, 2 count, 1 dit, 1 paid_for, 10 unused :P
11:27:12 <Celestar> er 4 for the CargoPacketID
11:29:11 <Celestar> SmatZ: afaik only on Mac
11:29:27 <SmatZ> Celestar: try sizeof(bool) at your PC :)
11:30:04 <Celestar> gcc can't read from stdin?!
11:31:50 <Celestar> if you use an std::vector<bool>, the bool is one bit in size
11:31:59 <Celestar> because std::vector uses bitmaps for bools
11:33:20 <SmatZ> but that's not performance effective in some cases
11:38:49 <SmatZ> I wonder why I thought bool is 32bit :-/
11:39:02 <Celestar> SmatZ: cuz it is on MacOSX afaik
11:39:58 <SmatZ> Celestar: googling shows it is, yeah :) and also MS's BOOL is in fact int...
11:40:34 <SmatZ> possibly in C-ages, bool was always typedeffed as int, so that's where I learned that...
11:42:57 <Ammler> what are those pseudo sprites for in trg1r?
11:43:24 <blathijs> SmatZ: Actually, in C89 there is no such type as bool
11:43:40 <blathijs> SmatZ: And in practice, bools are usually stored in a 32bit memory or register
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11:48:22 <Celestar> how are those realistic timetables?
11:56:27 <Celestar> where are my testers? :D
12:01:50 <Ammler> I mostly use only the tree view to check where the waiting pass likes to go
12:02:56 <roboboy> ive reported a crash that was already reported
12:03:20 <Ammler> there are 3 locations now to report :-)
12:03:29 <Ammler> wiki, tt-forums and FS
12:05:12 <Celestar> noce this is trunkified, everything will go to FS (=
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12:07:32 <roboboy> I think I gave a bit more info on my report for the crash though
12:07:36 <Ammler> yeah, usually not before :-)
12:08:10 <Ammler> wiki talk page should be used for discussion content of the page
12:08:41 <Ammler> so it would be only the tt-forums left :-)
12:09:10 <peter1138> Ammler, colour remapping.
12:09:21 *** LordAzamath is now known as LA
12:09:24 * roboboy wonders why im getting warnings telling me that train 0 is old or getting very/old
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12:09:40 <Ammler> peter1138: answer to my grf question, I assume...
12:10:02 <peter1138> Celestar, they're not "realistic"
12:10:12 <peter1138> Celestar, they are an improvement, however.
12:16:00 <Celestar> peter1138: how's the code?
12:18:07 <eekee> grrr. trains using yapp should not turn around unless a blocked path will result in them turning straight back around again.
12:20:06 <eekee> in particular having a train wait for free path when it's only option is the reverse side of a one-way advanced signal is a pain
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12:22:04 <Celestar> eekee: or a one-way normal signal
12:22:43 <Celestar> maybe we could ask michi_cc :)
12:24:01 <eekee> I think I could timetable things so the trains don't reverse, but I don't like mucking about with timetables. forcing the wait_for_pbs_path option so trains don't reverse at all causes other problems
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12:24:55 <Brianetta> You know what would be cool? Towns building drive-through bus stops.
12:25:24 <Brianetta> Especially with cargo destinations. Passengers could change between companies there (:
12:25:28 <Gekz> what would be cool is buses pulling over at busstops
12:25:39 <Celestar> You know what would be cool? DTRS on slopes
12:25:44 <Brianetta> Gekz: That Never Happens.
12:25:48 <Celestar> and DTRS that DON'T BLOCK the whole road
12:26:05 <Brianetta> Bus stops where I live block the whole road...
12:26:05 <Celestar> drive through road stops
12:26:12 <Celestar> Brianetta: what backwater is that?
12:26:21 <Gekz> you just said what I just said then
12:26:24 <Brianetta> Th ebusstation is non-blocking
12:26:39 <Gekz> Celestar: make the busses go off the road :)
12:26:45 <Brianetta> but basically, many bus stops are just a pole with a flagsign at the top
12:27:01 <Brianetta> sometimes with a yellow BUS STOP box painted into the road
12:27:02 <peter1138> Bah, I can't find those LED/switch motherboard connectors on Maplin's site :(
12:27:07 <Gekz> busstops in Australia are light posts with a sticker on them
12:27:33 <Brianetta> Some have a lay-by, but not all
12:27:59 <Brianetta> and such lay-bys are not easy to build unless they're there form the time of construction of the road
12:28:37 <eekee> they're much easier here. cars are merely not allowed to park on the bus stops. Instant lay-by on 90% of town roads
12:29:16 <Brianetta> In Newcastle, many cycle lanes are interrupted for bus stops.
12:29:38 <Gekz> buses are more important
12:29:43 <Gekz> they carry more people than a bicycle.
12:29:57 <Brianetta> They pollute more than a bicycle, too
12:30:04 <Brianetta> and they are far more resistant to imnpact
12:30:09 <Gekz> not as much as if each person drove a car
12:30:19 <Brianetta> Who brought cars into this?
12:30:27 <Gekz> you brought up pollution
12:30:30 <Brianetta> Shall we compare bicycles to cars?
12:30:43 <Gekz> bicycles are terrible for long distances.
12:30:44 <eekee> busses are useful for people who can't/don't have a car or who can't cycle to their destination, but as economic entities they SUCK
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12:31:19 * Celestar just got an EVIL idea
12:31:20 <Brianetta> Trams and inner city elevated monorails.
12:31:23 <Brianetta> That's the solution.
12:31:41 <Gekz> a permanent fixture on a road
12:31:45 <Gekz> that takes up yet more space
12:32:03 <Celestar> limit the speed in YAPP blocks that are not safe waiting locations to 100km/h :P
12:32:07 <Brianetta> Gekz: They're less polluting, and more predictable
12:32:12 <Gekz> that monorail is quite useless tbh
12:32:36 <Celestar> or just limit the speeds on switches in general
12:32:48 <Gekz> Celestar: its a suicide mission!
12:32:52 <peter1138> What about my high-speed junctions?
12:33:03 <Brianetta> Celestar: How do you tell a safe waiting location apart from a block without one?
12:33:16 <eekee> trams get stuck in traffic, involved in collisions and =I think= actually cost as much to install as elevated monorail
12:33:24 <Celestar> Brianetta: I wasn't 100% serious about it
12:33:38 <Gekz> busses are still cheaper
12:33:44 <Gekz> and less useless in Australia
12:33:49 <Gekz> where the population is sparse
12:33:51 <Celestar> Brianetta: but think of it. Trains usually don't cross the "big junction" in front of a terminal station with maximum speed (and that's nothing to do with the station being there)
12:33:56 <Rubidium> Celestar: then new operator may, by specs, never return NULL
12:34:28 <Celestar> Rubidium: our overloaded operator in oldpool might?
12:35:25 <Rubidium> cause at OOM it goes BOOM
12:35:31 <Celestar> Rubidium: what happens if no more pool items can be allocated?
12:35:37 <Celestar> not OOM ... pool limit ..
12:35:58 <Brianetta> Celestar: I'd say a train should slow when it crosses more than one junction at once
12:36:02 <Brianetta> Even if they're on the same tile
12:36:07 <Rubidium> for cargopackets it'll do the wrong thing I reckon
12:36:11 <Brianetta> That way, a "high speed switch" can still be used
12:36:20 <Rubidium> the rest checks whether there's space before it try too create them
12:36:36 <Celestar> Brianetta: something like that
12:36:40 <Brianetta> welshdragon: That's a Wright Gemini
12:36:55 <Celestar> Brianetta: high-speed switches are rare. Especially on the "splitting" (correct term?) track
12:37:00 <welshdragon> but it's a special bus
12:37:01 <Brianetta> In fact, those are getting old and there are nicer buses around here
12:37:30 <Brianetta> welshdragon: It's not special, it's common as mutt
12:37:31 <Celestar> dunno if there are any high-speed switch with more than 250km/h in the world
12:37:52 <Brianetta> Celestar: Not that rare. Our mainlines have them.
12:38:00 <peter1138> You could limit the junction speed based on the number of connections on it.
12:38:05 <Brianetta> SOmetimes, sure, they flip a train into a nearby hill...
12:38:10 <Brianetta> ...but they work most of the time.
12:38:21 <Celestar> Brianetta: well, > 160km/h on the splitting line?
12:38:27 <Brianetta> peter1138: I was thinking number of connections under the train at once
12:38:38 <Rubidium> Celestar: they have those in Japan :)
12:38:45 <Brianetta> Celestar: Yes. 200kmh running.
12:38:59 <Celestar> Brianetta: oh. I thought on the straight part only
12:39:08 <Rubidium> Celestar: well, basically every "small" Shinkansen station has a couple of them
12:39:13 <peter1138> What about that grade crossing? heh
12:39:16 <Brianetta> Yes; a train that's actually switching slows down
12:39:29 <Brianetta> it woul dhave more than one connection under the wheels
12:39:30 <Celestar> Rubidium: yes, but not only on the straight tracks.
12:39:34 <Brianetta> which ties with my suggestion
12:39:45 <Forked> Celestar: (late reply) .. sourceview.png - I only use the view where I see people are going (to D via C via B via A). So far I don't really care where they originate, as long as they get where they want to go asap
12:40:37 <Celestar> peter1138: grade crossings are limited to 160km/h in Germany. There are few per-instance-exceptions for 200km/h
12:41:32 <Celestar> well, the 200km/h permission has been dropped in 1992. I'm not up-to-date
12:42:05 *** welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
12:42:31 <peter1138> I can't remember where it is :o
12:43:46 <peter1138> Why does eBay keep giving me a list of tractors...
12:43:46 * Celestar fails to see the difference between 200km/h and 160km/h when a 500-ton IC crashes into the side of your car. You're likely to be goo anyway
12:44:26 <Brianetta> Celestar: It's all about how far down the line they have to retrieve your remains.
12:44:32 <eekee> peter1138: you checked the prices of them once? someone hacked your account and saved a search for tractors? :D
12:45:31 <Celestar> Trivia: the ICE-line from Munich to Stuttgart has a minimum curve radius of about? 2400m, 1200m, 600m, 300m ?
12:46:05 <Rubidium> Celestar: the correct term for the result of such collisions is "that's toast" (J. Clarkson)
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12:47:26 <Brianetta> Bah, *that* collision looked more spectacular because the car had no engine
12:47:32 <Brianetta> They didn't want to break the loco
12:48:43 <Celestar> timeout of trivia. you lose. :P
12:48:59 <Rubidium> Brianetta: but that was only going 100 km/h, not 200 km/h ;)
12:49:43 <Brianetta> I suspect if it was 200 they'd have need kevlar umbrellas.
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12:53:35 * Celestar wonders whether realistic acceleration is too .. gentle .. with curve speed limits
12:53:57 <Gekz> Celestar: stop breaking the matrix
12:55:02 <Brianetta> Celestar: It's not too gentle, and in the future when trains know to slow down in advance, curves will be slower as a result.
12:55:29 <Kloopy> Trains are going to do that in the future?
12:55:47 <Brianetta> I look forward to that wonderful day in the future where our trains can SPAD because they had no time to stop. (:
12:56:00 <Celestar> Brianetta: sounds reasonable
12:56:10 <Celestar> Kloopy: yeah they will
12:56:25 <Brianetta> Signal passed at danger
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12:56:44 <Kloopy> Is someone coding a decent "look ahead" for trains, then?
12:57:03 <Rubidium> it already looks hundreds of km ahead ;)
12:57:11 <peter1138> "realistic" acceleration sucks.
12:57:25 <Celestar> Kloopy: YAPP _is_ a decent look ahead. It's just not being used for that purpose
12:57:28 <Celestar> peter1138: the reason being?
12:57:51 <Brianetta> Trains slow down in a lovely way for a station stop
12:58:00 <Rubidium> Celestar: realistic being less realistic than the non-realistic acceleration (according to some train drivers)
12:58:05 <Brianetta> but come a red light, they just let the passengers pile into the driver's cab
12:58:32 <Kloopy> Rubidium, Celestar: So it's not far from realistic (de|a)cceleration, then? eg slowing down before red signals.
12:58:57 <Celestar> Kloopy: someone 'just' needs to do it
12:59:04 <Celestar> but methinks yapp has all the capability that is needed
12:59:12 <Celestar> except a guestimation of the brake distance
12:59:31 <Rubidium> Celestar: I hope any train can stop in 686 km :)
12:59:39 <Celestar> (maybe increase by 50% above snow line)
12:59:43 <Celestar> Rubidium: why 686km?
12:59:52 <Kloopy> Perhaps the train drivers could use trial and error. They could break less and less hard each time they approach a red singal until their bodies stop turning into mush because of the extreme G forces.
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13:01:00 <Kloopy> haha Rubidium. When you put it like that, it's perfect as it is :P
13:01:07 <Tefad> doesn't that also mean that the vehicles are huge as hell
13:01:29 <Kloopy> A passenger carriage is about 215miles long.
13:01:30 <Rubidium> Tefad: no, because the length of vehicles isn't measured in km/h
13:01:44 <Tefad> yes but it is 686km per tile
13:01:57 <Tefad> that means each vehicle is tens of km long
13:02:00 <Rubidium> graphically a tile is 10 to a few hundred meters long
13:02:24 <Kloopy> You'd be a bit upset if a carriage 343km long pull in to the platform and there were only doors at each end, none in the middle. :/
13:02:25 *** Milloflex has joined #openttd
13:02:59 <Tefad> the reality in which the game exists is quite amusing and distorted
13:03:12 <Tefad> for a while, air travel was several factors slower than ground
13:04:33 <Celestar> for me: A tile is 50mx50m for graphical reasons, 500mx500m for airports, and 5000mx5000m when it comes to map/town size
13:05:11 <peter1138> I want to see more urban sprawl.
13:05:36 <Celestar> but not before we have SOME way to transport passengers into and out of cities
13:05:54 <Celestar> either underground stations, or the possibilty to move roads ..
13:06:18 <eekee> I remove roads all the time, it's a patch option
13:07:11 <eekee> still difficult to get a station into the center of town
13:07:23 <Kloopy> ..it would be in real life.
13:08:42 <Tefad> there's a station downtown here that has a rail crossing in it.
13:08:42 <eekee> true. passenger destinations would help, althouhg honestly even stations part-way in can get swamped with passengers as things are
13:09:00 <Tefad> right off main street : )
13:09:19 <eekee> well if the town grows around the station you're alright
13:10:14 <eekee> hmm shouldn't stations be ok under bridges?
13:10:23 <eekee> I have to go, but been wanting to ask that for ages :)
13:10:48 <Tefad> probably but i doubt the game would like it
13:11:26 <eekee> well anything else track-ish can go under. oh, station canopies couldn't go under
13:14:32 <fjb> How does a 32bpp GRF get created?
13:15:48 <Kloopy> That is the world WORST joke.
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13:18:07 <peter1138> fjb, GRF only supports 8bpp. 32bpp is done by providing PNGs, numbered appropriately for the GRF.
13:18:08 <fjb> Hm, how it it done? Just putting PNGs into a tar? But where does the programming logic for that graphics go?
13:18:34 <peter1138> If you want a 32bpp only GRF, you'll need to provide dummy 8bpp sprites.
13:19:31 <fjb> A standard 8bit GRF + an aditional tar with the 32bpp sprites?
13:20:28 *** reldred is now known as reldred|gone
13:34:51 <Kloopy> Celestar, peter1138: What's the stability of cargodests with regard to multiplayer desyncs at the moment?
13:36:28 <Celestar> Kloopy: closing in on 100%
13:36:43 <Celestar> Kloopy: we've had 3 tests.
13:37:11 *** lobster_MB has joined #openttd
13:37:19 <Celestar> first was a fiasco. second and third had a single problem which is (hopefully) fixed ... worked around ...
13:37:47 <Celestar> peter1138: I'm still wondering whether to keep resetting the whole routing system when a station-xy is changed.
13:37:57 <Celestar> then again, it's not really slower than anything else
13:38:11 <Celestar> it just looks ... clumsy :P
13:40:19 <Celestar> Kloopy: there will be a large openttdcoop test this week. wanna join?
13:40:43 <Kloopy> Depends when it is, I've got my Mum's birthday and two TF2 clan matches this week. :)
13:40:56 <Kloopy> But if I am free, I would love to join.
13:41:45 <Celestar> We plan to start wednesday
13:42:28 <Celestar> Kloopy: can you compile?
13:44:20 <Kloopy> I haven't installed hg or boost before, but it can't be hard :P
13:44:28 <Kloopy> Last time I compiled, it was a straight trunk build from svn.
13:45:05 <Celestar> it actually MIGHT work with buildottd
13:45:34 <Forked> give svn link and I'll try :)
13:46:04 <Celestar> you need boost installed ... somewhere :P
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13:46:25 <Celestar> this assumes revision 14214, Forked
13:47:02 <Forked> sorta figured from the filename :)
13:53:23 <Kloopy> Is the desync due to autoreplace/renew fixed? I think it was recoded wasn't it?
13:54:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14216 /branches/0.6/ (14 files in 4 dirs): [0.6] -Backport from trunk: makefile/installer changes to support the new compile farm.
13:56:26 <Celestar> Kloopy: was it cargodest-related or general?
13:59:03 <Celestar> if it was fixed back then, it's working (=
14:02:33 <Celestar> dunno I don't mess with autoreplace
14:02:48 <Celestar> I'll talk to frosch later on and test some things myself
14:07:45 <Celestar> peter1138: blitter ... (=
14:09:07 <peter1138> Change your resolution :)
14:12:27 <SmatZ> interesting, maybe even 8bpp blitter should be optimized even more
14:12:58 <peter1138> Compilers can optimize everything ;)
14:13:05 <Celestar> SmatZ: that's a 200 vehicle game with cargodest on (=
14:27:06 <peter1138> Have you removed all the std:: stuff yet, SmatZ? ;)
14:27:36 <SmatZ> peter1138: not... though I have "SmallMap" ready for several weeks :)
14:29:28 <DorpsGek> dih: Brianetta was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 31 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <Brianetta> but come a red light, they just let the passengers pile into the driver's cab
14:29:44 <SmatZ> Celestar: replacing std::map, works better for maps with few items
14:30:07 <SmatZ> that are usually in OTTD (drivers, towns affected by exectuing a command)
14:30:25 <Brianetta> dih: I ignore activity on coop.members in general
14:30:48 <Brianetta> Yes. They're usually autopilots after people say !version
14:31:15 <dih> no more autopilots in there
14:31:38 <Brianetta> Here's where the conversation is.
14:31:54 <dih> about autopilot development?
14:32:11 <Brianetta> autopilot development is as on-topic here as anywhere
14:33:34 <Forked> oh, BuildOTTD not working too well these days huh
14:33:55 <jimmy> hello there everyone. I have a question... a few of my trains seem to get stuck in their depots and will leave maybe once every 2 - 3 months then repeat. ive tried replacing the depots / trains moving track and it keeps happening. I am sending to trains to very large stations i have setup. Any advice would be much appreciated
14:35:02 <Yexo> jimmy: can you post a screenshot or savegame somewhere?
14:35:34 <jimmy> i dont have any signals setup... i even put non-stop order in and it doesnt seem to work
14:35:48 <jimmy> i dont have a screenshot atm...
14:36:00 <jimmy> just one train on a track to a station
14:36:04 <Forked> you should have some signals :)
14:36:13 <Forked> if it's more than one train on the same track
14:36:16 <peter1138> Forked, not if it is only point-to-point.
14:36:23 <jimmy> its one train on one train
14:36:33 <Yexo> jimmy: without a savegame/screenshot we really can't help you
14:37:08 <jimmy> how do i take a screen ?
14:38:07 <Celestar> SmatZ: faster than std::map?
14:38:31 <jimmy> where does it put the screens ?
14:38:45 <Brianetta> What OS are you using?
14:39:08 <Brianetta> My Documents\OpenTTD
14:39:10 <Yexo> my documents\openttd\...
14:40:08 <SmatZ> Celestar: linear time search, and it has a better chance to use cache better, so it should have better times in those cases
14:40:39 <SmatZ> eg. not jumping around memory as with binary tree
14:40:42 <Celestar> SmatZ: a normal map as a search of log(n)
14:41:09 <Celestar> so it may be helpful for a handful of items
14:41:46 <SmatZ> [16:29:45] <SmatZ> Celestar: replacing std::map, works better for maps with few items
14:43:03 <SmatZ> fetching data from memory takes 100s of ticks
14:43:27 <SmatZ> while accessing them in an array allows better prefetching and using the same cache block
14:44:13 <SmatZ> also it needs more cache - as cache block is 32-64B in size, and one element of map is usually smaller
14:45:17 <SmatZ> jimmy: near flintown, there is a track crossing two tracks
14:45:22 <SmatZ> making the signal block bigger
14:45:55 <jimmy> there www.iphoneontario.ca/Ronnley-Transport-22nd-Jun-2035.png
14:45:57 <planetmaker> jimmy: with the use of signals it would look way better :) - and you'd save zillions
14:46:19 <jimmy> :/ i should look into train tuts i suppose
14:46:45 <SmatZ> jimmy: remove that unneeded track at Flintown
14:46:52 <jimmy> yup removing those crossings fixed things right away
14:47:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
14:48:55 <jimmy> another weird thing ive noticed in this game i am playing their r no forests yet paper mills and wood plants everywhere... is that normal ?
14:49:48 <jimmy> sub artic climate thing ?
14:50:11 <yorick> there are no oilrigs in arctic
14:50:19 <planetmaker> forrests are only above(?) snow line. So you might have too many low lands.
14:50:24 <yorick> other things might need some change in snowlines
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15:02:30 <SmatZ> cargodest patch adds ~7% to compilation time and ~5% to binary size
15:11:00 <SmatZ> a bit more than YAPP :)
15:11:13 <yorick> only the first compile :)
15:11:42 <yorick> the second time you compile, the compile time will be same as always(assuming you didnt make any modifications)
15:12:05 <SmatZ> when you change any headers, tens of files may need to recompile
15:15:46 <Celestar> sometimes I love our code
15:15:53 <Celestar> #define assert_compile(expr) extern const int __ct_assert__[1 - 2 * !(expr)] <= Best. Macro. Ever.
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15:22:47 * peter1138 ponders allowing GRFs to have more than one error message.
15:23:34 <SpComb> and each error message should get its own popup/alert box
15:23:45 <SpComb> .grfs can have something akin to for loops, can't they?
15:42:29 *** thingwath has joined #openttd
15:49:28 <peter1138> SpComb, popup would be annoying :)
15:49:45 <peter1138> Maybe a single popup saying there were GRF errors...
15:55:20 <De_Ghosty> is there a comman to quickly reinstall package?
15:55:56 <blathijs> De_Ghosty: On what OS/distribution?
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16:00:29 <blathijs> De_Ghosty: aptitude reinstall openttd
16:05:36 <De_Ghosty> i wanna reinstall sshd
16:06:09 <De_Ghosty> Starting OpenBSD Secure Shell server: sshdfdopen failed: Invalid argument
16:06:09 <De_Ghosty> Could not load host key: /etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key
16:06:09 <De_Ghosty> fdopen failed: Invalid argument
16:06:09 <De_Ghosty> Could not load host key: /etc/ssh/ssh_host_dsa_key
16:06:09 <De_Ghosty> Disabling protocol version 2. Could not load host key
16:06:11 <De_Ghosty> Missing privilege separation directory: /var/empty
16:06:15 <glx> how did you manage to break it?
16:06:31 <Celestar> wrohg permissions on the host keys?!
16:06:55 <Celestar> glx: do you get any warnings in cargodest::src/console_cmd.cpp with mingw?
16:06:57 <Celestar> De_Ghosty: possibly?
16:07:02 <SpComb> peter1138: I advocate the possibility for inifinite popups
16:07:10 <Celestar> De_Ghosty: remove the host key and make new ones
16:07:47 <Celestar> De_Ghosty: and what are the permissions on those keys?
16:08:08 <blathijs> Any chance the box has been compromised?
16:08:40 <De_Ghosty> nothing else is running
16:09:10 <De_Ghosty> 10236 ? 00:00:00 syslogd
16:09:10 <De_Ghosty> 11306 ? 00:00:00 mysqld_safe
16:09:11 <De_Ghosty> 11347 ? 00:00:00 logger
16:09:11 <De_Ghosty> 11447 ? 00:00:00 cron
16:09:13 <De_Ghosty> 11461 ? 00:00:00 apache
16:09:13 <De_Ghosty> 11497 ? 00:00:00 miniserv.pl
16:09:15 <De_Ghosty> 14103 ? 00:00:00 miniserv.pl
16:09:15 <De_Ghosty> 14104 ? 00:00:00 sh <defunct>
16:09:17 <De_Ghosty> 14127 ? 00:00:04 server_linux
16:09:17 <De_Ghosty> 5762 ? 00:00:00 miniserv.pl
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16:09:45 <Celestar> De_Ghosty: and be happy that sshd doesn'T run with those permissions
16:09:51 <Celestar> it's the PRIVATE host key
16:11:01 <blathijs> Hmm, world-readable is not good
16:11:10 <blathijs> though the error message doesn't say anything about that
16:11:12 <Celestar> make NEW host keys with 600 or 640
16:11:24 <Celestar> blathijs: "Missing priviledge separation" ?
16:11:27 <peter1138> Reinstall the OS :)
16:11:54 <blathijs> purging the openssh-server (IIRC) package and reinstalling it should help I think
16:12:19 <blathijs> alternatively, removing the key files and running "dpkg-reconfigure openssh-server" should probably do the trick as well
16:13:05 <blathijs> Though I'm not sure what the error about /var/empty means, nor all those fdopen errors
16:13:09 <De_Ghosty> sh: line 1: 7332 Segmentation fault stty -a 2>/dev/null
16:13:09 <De_Ghosty> sh: line 1: 7334 Segmentation fault stty -a 2>/dev/null
16:13:09 <De_Ghosty> debconf: unable to initialize frontend: Dialog
16:13:09 <De_Ghosty> debconf: (TERM is not set, so the dialog frontend is not usable.)
16:13:09 <De_Ghosty> debconf: falling back to frontend: Readline
16:13:11 <De_Ghosty> sh: line 1: 7336 Segmentation fault stty -a 2>/dev/null
16:13:11 <De_Ghosty> sh: line 1: 7338 Segmentation fault stty -a 2>/dev/null
16:13:13 <De_Ghosty> debconf: unable to initialize frontend: Readline
16:13:13 <De_Ghosty> debconf: (This frontend requires a controlling tty.)
16:13:15 <De_Ghosty> debconf: falling back to frontend: Teletype
16:13:15 <De_Ghosty> sh: line 1: 7340 Segmentation fault stty -a 2>/dev/null
16:13:17 <De_Ghosty> sh: line 1: 7342 Segmentation fault stty -a 2>/dev/null
16:13:17 <De_Ghosty> fdopen failed: Invalid argument
16:13:19 <De_Ghosty> Could not load host key: /etc/ssh/ssh_host_rsa_key
16:13:19 <De_Ghosty> fdopen failed: Invalid argument
16:13:21 <De_Ghosty> Could not load host key: /etc/ssh/ssh_host_dsa_key
16:13:21 <De_Ghosty> Disabling protocol version 2. Could not load host key
16:13:23 <De_Ghosty> Missing privilege separation directory: /var/empty
16:13:23 <De_Ghosty> invoke-rc.d: initscript ssh, action "restart" failed.
16:13:36 <De_Ghosty> dpkg-reconfigure openssh-server
16:13:37 <blathijs> De_Ghosty: You should use paste.openttd.org for such long pastes, btw
16:13:51 <Celestar> you have a bigger problem than a b0rked sshd I think
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16:14:03 <blathijs> Any chance that this machine's memory is fubar/
16:14:09 <blathijs> or other hardware failure?
16:14:22 <De_Ghosty> other stuff is working
16:14:27 <blathijs> Or perhaps out-of-diskspace? Shouldn't have this much fallout, but can be pretty nasty sometimes
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16:14:36 <De_Ghosty> no have lots of disk left
16:14:41 <SpComb> mmh, stty segfaulting?
16:15:11 <De_Ghosty> i though if ur rooted it's suppose to be hidden?
16:15:15 <De_Ghosty> not break everything
16:15:52 <Celestar> maybe someone failed to root it?
16:16:05 <Rubidium> well, you could've got an unsafe key and some script kiddo rooted you
16:16:19 <hylje> either way the doubt is up
16:16:51 <SpComb> have you or someone else run a `sudo chmod -R 777 /`?
16:17:13 <SpComb> I've seen a couple servers where someone decided they were too lazy to use sudo, so they did that
16:17:18 <SpComb> (plus nopasswd sudo, of course
16:17:26 <De_Ghosty> i'm always on rot no need for sudo
16:17:28 <peter1138> SpComb... Jolteon? ;)
16:17:42 <SpComb> no, an internal company server
16:17:51 <De_Ghosty> no this is a private server
16:18:14 <peter1138> Always root is bad.
16:18:31 <Celestar> sudo on a box with a single admin O_o
16:18:53 * peter1138 ponders updating his NewGRF sanity checking patch.
16:19:45 <De_Ghosty> ponder how to fix my sshd :d
16:20:23 <De_Ghosty> blah maybe i'll get a fresh slate
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16:25:38 <SpComb> Celestar: sudo on *every* box
16:28:03 <fjb> A friend was always root on his provate Linux box till the day he did a "rm -R *" and realizing too late that it was the wrong directory. He was in "/".
16:28:59 <FauxFaux> sudo on every box indeed, sudo sudo -u lulz -s is far more convenient than su -c 'su lulz' ¬_¬
16:29:29 <planetmaker> gah. People who work as root deserve a rm -rf / once in a while...
16:30:24 <Brianetta> I work as root on many boxen
16:30:32 <fjb> He never did his daily work as root again. Now root was the account for admin puposes only.
16:30:36 <Brianetta> but I am a network technician
16:30:42 <Brianetta> working as root is a requirement
16:31:12 <Brianetta> The only machine here where I'm not root is the one I have my hands on
16:31:13 <planetmaker> Brianetta: when it's necessary, it's fine. But even then I'd only run those commands as root which require it necessarily.
16:31:13 <fjb> >For admin work it is, but not for the daily text editing etc.
16:31:44 <Brianetta> planetmaker: Believe me, they're necessary. Routing changes, restarts, daemon killing, etc
16:31:47 <FauxFaux> alias su=fakeroot and be happy. :)
16:31:52 <planetmaker> Brianetta: sure :)
16:32:11 <Brianetta> This box here, though (pat-pat) is logged in as a regular user.
16:32:11 <peter1138> Hmm, it compiled...
16:32:48 <Celestar> SpComb: I don't use it
16:33:10 <peter1138> Does CopyGRFConfigList() actually need to copy errors?
16:33:43 <fjb> I prefer to have a dedicated root shell fpr admin work over prefixing every command with sudo. Sudo is like the Vista security boxes after a while, just annoying and no additional security because you don't think about which commands need that prefix, you just type it.
16:38:26 <fjb> Yes, su, ssh doesn't accept root login.
16:38:35 <glx> Celestar: no warnings with mingw
16:39:04 <fjb> And only users of group "wheel" are allowed to become root.
16:39:17 <SpComb> Brianetta: but you usually don't need to run e.g. ls or less as root
16:40:07 <Celestar> fjb: sounds like fBSD to me (=
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16:40:57 <Brianetta> SpComb: No; just things like rm
16:41:02 <Brianetta> What's the additional risk?
16:41:59 <fjb> Yes, BSD. BSD, like most other kinds of UNIX don't allow everybody to become root. That is a special "feature" of the GNU people. (Free access to everything by everyone. No specal class of users who are allowed to have more rights.)
16:42:18 <Celestar> fjb: well you can configure it easily
16:42:28 <Brianetta> fjb: Debian derived Linux distributions don't allow anybody to become root.
16:42:45 <Brianetta> well, by anybody, I mean just anybody
16:42:53 <Brianetta> not that they allow nobody
16:43:01 <fjb> Ah, then they adapted the more secure behavior of the usual UNIX.
16:43:22 <Brianetta> They did. They always did.
16:43:31 <Celestar> it's just not configged by default
16:43:33 <Brianetta> Linux is a kernel; not all distributions are alike
16:44:00 <Brianetta> Redhat/Fedora/Suse are all less secure in this respect
16:44:22 <Celestar> They all come with SELinux
16:44:30 <Celestar> you just need to configure it :P
16:44:33 <Brianetta> SElinux is just a kernel too
16:44:34 <fjb> Not the kernel is the problem here, GNU su is. Hurd would have the same security risk because that is the GNU phylosophy.
16:45:06 <Brianetta> GNU su requires root's password. Ubuntu, by default, comes with the root account disabled (password hash is a *)
16:45:28 <fjb> SELinux is a totally different beast. You need a lot of knowledge to handle it.
16:45:43 <De_Ghosty> i demand fix my ssh
16:45:48 <Brianetta> SElinux is great if you know your system
16:45:49 <Celestar> but with a PROPER root password, things are less insecure
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16:46:46 <Brianetta> my /etc/sudoers file allows *me* to do anything I like, but not everybody
16:47:04 <fjb> There is always a way to get a full root shell if you are allowed to do something as root.
16:47:05 <Brianetta> There are a couple of commands my autopilot account can do; sh isn't one of them.
16:47:24 <Celestar> being able to execute root commands without specifying a password is not prudent imho
16:47:39 <Marine> hey guys, i have a question. When my train goes to the next station, i want it to fill up and then continue when the station is empty, but it will sit there, i presume, until its full
16:47:47 <Marine> how can i get it to move on when nothing is left?
16:47:47 <Brianetta> fjb: No, there is not. login runs as root in BSD, from the shell. Go, try and exploit that.
16:48:11 <Prof_Frink> fjb: I dunno, allowing anyone to run /bin/true as root is probably fairly safe
16:48:25 <fjb> And that is all some kind of hacking around the security risk in GNU su to not obey a special wheel group like traditional UNIX does.
16:49:06 <De_Ghosty> Marine jsut use go to station
16:49:16 <De_Ghosty> don't use wait for full load
16:49:19 <Marine> yeah but it seems like its sitting there when there is nothing in the station
16:49:24 <Marine> and no i havent got fiull load set
16:49:37 *** welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
16:50:08 <fjb> Prof_Frink: Do you cofigure evey possible command that could be allowed as root in sudo? Don't forget one you will need and don't have one too much there.
16:50:28 <Marine> maybe it is filling up but before it finishes more comes in
16:50:52 <Brianetta> My sudo setup is like that, for all accounts but my own, on my server
16:51:01 <Brianetta> That is, my server's as secure as my account
16:51:02 <De_Ghosty> yea that can happen if it's a really busy station
16:52:04 <Brianetta> One of the accounts can run chown :www-data
16:52:12 <Brianetta> but that's made secure by trust
16:52:32 <fjb> But it is way more complex than a simple wheel group. And more complex things are prone to error.
16:52:50 <Brianetta> I wouldn't say "way more"
16:53:01 <Prof_Frink> fjb: My system has one user.
16:53:09 <Brianetta> in tital, about five commands are allowed. All but one are scripts that I wrote.
16:54:11 <Brianetta> They're Tcl scripts (:
16:54:46 <fjb> That doesn't matter that much. Still fun, just other fun as sh scripts.
16:55:01 <Brianetta> Doesn't matter? Tcl rocks
16:55:14 <Brianetta> Tcl vs Perl was a Holy War back in the 80s
16:55:30 <Brianetta> Doesn't matter indeed. I bet you're an Emacs user.
16:56:26 <fjb> Tcl just is not more secure as sh or perl.
16:57:10 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
17:01:14 *** Yeggs-work is now known as Yeggstry
17:02:35 <Brianetta> I never said it was more secure. Just that the fact I'm using Tcl says which side of a very old Holy War I'm on.
17:02:46 <Brianetta> [17:54] <Brianetta> They're Tcl scripts (:
17:02:46 <Brianetta> [17:54] <fjb> That doesn't matter that much
17:02:51 <Brianetta> That's all I disagreed with
17:03:34 <Brianetta> If I were an Emacs user I'd have bet you were a vi user.
17:03:44 <yorick> python is still betterer :)
17:03:57 <fjb> And I say that every script can be compromised.
17:04:01 <Brianetta> Python is a young whipper-snapper newfangled newbie of a language.
17:04:30 <fjb> And I still don't get your jump to Emacs.
17:04:38 <Brianetta> fjb: Every script? Even a one-liner?: puts {Hello, World!}
17:04:57 <Brianetta> fjb: The jump to emacs was basically a call for a fight (:
17:05:44 <fjb> Every script, because you can get access to the interpreter. And I bet your 5 admin sripts are no oneliners.
17:05:55 <fjb> And I don't see any reason for a fight.
17:06:08 <Brianetta> You said it didn't matter that I used Tcl (a sensitive area, that) and so I accused you of being an Emacs user, and therefore the enemy.
17:06:21 <Brianetta> since i'm on the vi side of that one.
17:06:39 <Brianetta> I just assumed you were aware of some Unix culture, sorry.
17:07:33 <fjb> Being aware of culture doesn't mean to take any fight, especially not if we are talking about system security.
17:09:06 <Brianetta> fjb: The fight is part of the culture, and it's all in jest.
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17:10:28 <fjb> I don't take senseless fights, even if I know that other people do. Believing that one scripting language is unvulnarable is even foolish.
17:11:00 <Brianetta> "Believing that one scripting language is unvulnarable is even foolish."
17:11:08 <Brianetta> and THAT was you, jumping to a conclusion.
17:11:11 <Brianetta> I never made that claim.
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17:14:05 <fjb> I said tcl is not better than sh, it only is different.
17:15:15 <Brianetta> I never claimed otherwise
17:15:23 <Brianetta> I just said my scripts were Tcl
17:15:29 <Marine> nah, its still doing it. My station says Waiting: Nothing but the train doesn't move on
17:15:42 <Marine> i have to manually skip that station
17:15:51 <Brianetta> I also said that Tcl rocks, because it does
17:16:14 <Brianetta> but all Polish Notation languages are things of beauty
17:16:38 <peter1138> Hmm, that didn't work so well.
17:16:48 <Brianetta> but anyway, I have a train to catch.
17:18:50 <peter1138> I now need to check if an error has already been added :o
17:19:07 <peter1138> (Non-fatal errors are done multiple times)
17:23:50 <peter1138> Heh, tons of warnings from this OTTDC game.
17:23:57 <peter1138> Somebody hasn't read any readmes...
17:24:30 <Wolf01> smell of roasted chicken... no, it's not the computer... I hope it's not the dinner too
17:29:26 *** lobstar is now known as lobster
17:29:35 <Kloopy> Oh man, latest nightlies crash on run. (Win32)
17:29:59 <peter1138> Hmm, that brick's a bit tough.
17:31:24 <Marine> what the hell in one of my stations it had 80000 litres of oil waiting, and then with no train there it just shot down to Nothing waiting?
17:31:34 <FauxFaux> It does indeed, Kloopy.
17:31:47 <FauxFaux> It probably rotted, Marine.
17:33:24 <glx> Kloopy: wait for 30 minutes
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17:35:19 <Kloopy> Is that when the farm recompiles?
17:36:30 <FauxFaux> Is there any particular reason why the repo has no bugtraq properties on it?
17:40:25 <FauxFaux> Sharp corners. :( Agh! 90deg corners.
17:42:30 <Rubidium> FauxFaux: what's bugtraq anyway?
17:42:54 * peter1138 notes that the old trac used to link to flyspray.
17:43:19 <FauxFaux> Rubidium: It's info for prettier clients (ie. tortoise) to make commit-messages have urls in, and provide UI support, etc.
17:43:28 <peter1138> Hmm, I need to make the bottom bit of the NewGRF window scrollable too :o
17:46:25 <Kloopy> You have a very small monitor, peter1138.
17:46:48 <glx> Kloopy: the problem is not really a compilation thing, but some required files are not in the zip and that will be fix when the compile farm will pack the new nightly
17:47:01 <peter1138> I resized the window to get a smaller screenshot. The NewGRF window is at its default size.
17:47:02 <Kloopy> Ah, ok then. Which is in 15 mins or so?
18:01:14 <peter1138> Hmm. Duplicates now handled.
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18:05:07 <Kloopy> glx: Thank you, the new nightly does indeed run :D
18:07:34 <peter1138> Nice lot of errors :D
18:13:17 <Rubidium> FauxFaux: I dislike that feature as it means adding the same information to many many places in the repository
18:14:13 <FauxFaux> Rubidium: Mm, does adding it to the root not work? You most certainly don't need to add it to every folder.
18:14:19 <Rubidium> many many meaning 50+ places
18:14:49 <Rubidium> FauxFaux: not quite as nobody should do a full svn checkout (people doing that are *CRAZY* )
18:15:32 <Rubidium> so, nice idea, unuseable/unmanageable implementation
18:15:33 <peter1138> Oh, the errors are last nights, heh...
18:15:37 * FauxFaux does it locally, job down. :)
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18:23:36 <Bjarni> peter1138: go get your spouse and the problem is solved
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19:51:45 <Noob> How do I get the original files inorder to run OpenTTD?
19:52:12 *** Jezral is now known as TinoDidriksen
19:52:36 <FauxFaux> Are there really not enough graphics to ship at least some shitty free ones yet? :(
19:53:06 <FauxFaux> Why not just drop the non-existent ones?
19:53:17 <FauxFaux> The installer on most oses already tries to force you to copy it.
19:54:01 <fjb> You could simply buy the original game.
19:54:03 <yorick> not allowed to give direct links here
19:54:18 <yorick> but only if you're really really desperate
19:56:35 <peter1138> s/desperate/sensible/
19:57:14 <yorick> that's quite the same if he would be any similar to me
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19:59:39 <dih> Brianetta, did you have a look at the interp thing i had pasted?
20:00:09 * peter1138 attempts to decipher bjarni-code.
20:00:10 <dih> did you think any further about autopilot stuff?
20:00:23 <peter1138> boxes_in_each_row ... generally knowns as 'columns'
20:01:39 <peter1138> That is not specific enough, and would result in cells_in_each_row :p
20:01:55 <yorick> ooh, depot window drawing code with boxes_in_each_row
20:02:06 <dih> Brianetta, i'll post it again for you
20:02:22 <yorick> 00314 uint16 boxes_in_each_row = this->widget[DEPOT_WIDGET_MATRIX].data & 0xFF;
20:02:34 * yorick is curious where d*h is talking about
20:06:40 <Bjarni> * peter1138 attempts to decipher bjarni-code. <--- you can crack encryption algorithms?
20:07:29 <Bjarni> also it looks like you are looking at depot GUI code
20:08:51 <Forked> just to be sure before I try to get this to work .. it is possible to compile win32 binary in linux
20:09:39 <Bjarni> if you have the right software and know how to use it
20:09:46 <Forked> and how big of a pita is it to get working? :)
20:09:59 <Bjarni> I never actually tried it
20:10:53 <dih> Brianetta, what do you think?
20:12:46 *** Jerimiah40 has joined #openttd
20:14:11 <dih> yorick you are getting annoying with your quit's :-P
20:15:27 <Ammler> the about window is freaking fast here
20:16:00 *** lobster_MB has joined #openttd
20:16:02 <yorick> dih: I'm sorry about that, the irc client tried to rejoin
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20:22:23 *** nappe1afk is now known as nappe1
20:22:50 <nappe1> Infra Sharing latest patch does not work...
20:23:04 <nappe1> posted the report to thread moment ago.
20:23:28 <Forked> and it's not fixed already?
20:24:07 <SmatZ> r14152 works, but r14180 doesn't?
20:25:10 <nappe1> SmatZ: have you tried 14152? if not, I need to test that... I just hunted down which patch causing that rather odd crash so I didn't have time to check it yet...
20:26:12 <SmatZ> nappe1: does it crash when you start a new game?
20:26:38 <Ammler> the 2 "core" devs of that patch left it alone long time ago
20:26:39 <nappe1> SmatZ: It crashes when the first production newspaper comes visible.
20:28:00 <nappe1> Ammler: wheeh... how the time flies... I thought this new one not being even that old. :D I do remember that one which was not going to make to trunk in 2005 already, but this is new one. :)
20:28:39 <Ammler> nappe1: you might speak about subsididy or how that is called
20:29:02 <Ammler> that one is much better :-)
20:29:42 <Ammler> planetmaker: just keeps it up2date, he might be able to fix it, but don't expect too much
20:30:09 <Rubidium> Forked: it's easier harder to set up that mingw, but way way easier than compiling OSX on Linux
20:30:57 <nappe1> Ammler: yeah, that's the old one... But you already guessed... I am quite casual OpenTTD player. :D
20:31:16 <nappe1> I don't play nor update game that often. :)
20:31:31 <Ammler> oh, I meant with "that one" the current one :-)
20:32:09 <Ammler> the subsidy patch wasn't that network stable
20:32:26 <nappe1> Ammler: Infrastructure Sharing Patch is about 2 years younger than Subsidies, which was also great.
20:32:58 <Forked> Rubidium: I'd prefer it on the linuxserver rather than on the windows workstation :) but not sure I should continue on it now, work tomorrow and it's already half past ten
20:33:34 <nappe1> peter1138: exactly. pardon my mistakes on language that (should be) my 3rd.
20:34:04 <nappe1> (but to be honest, I don't like swedish, so english is second language.)
20:34:04 <peter1138> Well... just that subsidies were a part of TTD ;)
20:34:25 <Rubidium> peter1138: but there's a subsidy patch too
20:34:45 * nappe1 needs a beer. It always fixes these situations...
20:34:57 * nappe1 makes a note: No Beer.
20:35:02 <Ammler> then I would be drunken all the time :P
20:35:10 * nappe1 makes another note: "remember buy some tomorrow."
20:36:12 <nappe1> SmatZ: excelent. very big thanks. :)
20:36:36 <SmatZ> helped planetmaker a bit ;)
20:37:01 <nappe1> SmatZ: Dare I ask, what was the problem or did the older revision work with just update to trunk revision? :)
20:37:29 * Rubidium guesses string vs stringid
20:37:49 <SmatZ> nappe1: too many enum values
20:37:49 <Marine> where do the saves go to?
20:37:58 <SmatZ> + NS_OPENCLOSE, ///< NT_OPENCLOSE
20:38:07 <SmatZ> it was removed time ago and it caused crash
20:38:17 <Rubidium> Marine: to the place as described in (do not) readme.txt
20:41:20 <nappe1> SmatZ: ok. you probably found it about 1000 times faster what that would have took from me. :)
20:42:28 <planetmaker> mental note to self: proper testing always pais off :P
20:42:46 <nappe1> (besides, I used 5 hours of my today's work as writing SanityChecks for certain excel report generator, due I didn't expect admin of that tool being that stupid, so debuging was not the first on my list to do at home. :D
20:42:56 <planetmaker> but then: patches are like bananas. They ripe at the customer's place ;)
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20:43:43 <Mortal> if I start a save with autorenewal disabled, save and abandon, enable autorenew in patches, load old save game, will autorenewing be enabled?
20:43:43 <Marine_> Ok then guys :) i have a save, but its from me being on a server. I want to start that save so how would i do that and still be myself?
20:44:18 <Ammler> Mortal: no, those settings belong to the save
20:44:47 <Ammler> settings, which aren't disabled in MP...
20:45:27 <Marine_> i have a save, but its from me being on a server. I want to start that save so how would i do that and still be myself?
20:45:48 <Ammler> Marine you need to "cheat" to your company
20:47:32 <Ammler> MP is the only reason I play OTTD :-)
20:48:02 * SpComb has never understood the point or value of competition in TTD
20:48:17 <Ammler> but against humen, it could be nice, too.
20:48:29 <SpComb> no, it just ends up messy
20:48:34 *** Marine_ is now known as Marine
20:48:47 <SpComb> co-op with shared infrastructure or walking passengers would be interesting
20:49:04 <AndiK> co-op with shared infrastructure is interesting
20:49:12 <AndiK> I've played that once or twice
20:49:21 <peter1138> Competition is fine, except there's always some muppet complaining that you're stealing *their* goods...
20:49:42 <AndiK> It's only that you should agree on which parts of the network are for freight and which for passengers. ^^
20:49:48 <Ammler> that is what I am doing mostly on such a server :-)
20:49:59 <Ammler> looking for a good factory already producing goods.
20:50:27 <Marine> SpComb: i'd love coop in MP
20:50:35 <Marine> but the others who play with me just want to rob my oil
20:50:49 <Prof_Frink> SpComb: i'd love coop round chickens
20:50:51 <AndiK> One should be able to hire armies of mercenaries
20:50:59 <AndiK> And then send them on the armies of other players
20:51:01 <Brianetta> That's my server's rules
20:51:09 <Brianetta> Competitive behaviour's allowed
20:51:14 <AndiK> We should call the patch "Transport & Conquer Deluxe"
20:51:15 <Brianetta> Anti-social behaviour isn't
20:51:51 <Brianetta> As long as Joe Kucan plays Kane
20:52:09 <AndiK> No, wait... The cyborgs are for us Krauts only. We can't see blood, you know?
20:52:11 * Prof_Frink clicks on the hangar
20:52:22 <AndiK> At least that's what the government thinks ^^
20:52:43 <Marine> is there a way to send money to toher poeple
20:52:54 <AndiK> Yep. Via the client list
20:53:47 <Forked> OpenCiv2 .. now wouldn't that be something :p
20:54:32 <planetmaker> Well. it's around, isn't it. Just called FreeCiv.
20:54:37 <AndiK> That would only be something if there's Tanya in it.
20:55:50 <peter1138> Ammler, I get a load of GRF errors from one of the coop games ;)
20:57:38 <peter1138> Don't know, it wasn't a save, it was one I had joined.
20:58:10 <peter1138> Has a load of bridge GRFs together :o
20:58:13 <Ammler> hmm, one of the first games with YAPP
20:58:19 <SpComb> yeah, MP co-op is difficult
20:58:34 <peter1138> Total Bridge Renewal Set Version 1.12 complains about all the other bridge sets loaded :p
20:58:55 <peter1138> So many complaints I need to add a scrollbar...
20:58:58 <SpComb> you tend to step on each others' toes, or one person is a bit shy and doesn't end up doing very much, or conflicts of style
20:59:04 <Ammler> yeah, thgergo did a "good" job setup those errors :-)
20:59:06 <SpComb> (other player builds "ugly" networks)
20:59:14 <SpComb> using the "wrong" locomotives :(
20:59:26 <peter1138> SpComb, other people putting down signals every other tile irritates me...
20:59:32 <peter1138> (So ottdcoop is out)
20:59:40 <Ammler> like keep slots free or memory.
20:59:55 <SpComb> that, and building a double-track railway with signals every four tiles across half the map to service one forest also annoys me
21:00:03 <SpComb> i.e. one train running on it
21:00:57 * AndiK loves to build realistic networks. Start out in 1920 with just a more or less short one track line.
21:01:09 <Ammler> peter1138: we play another type with cargo dest test
21:01:21 <SpComb> yeah, I only reluctantly expand to double-track, and electrified
21:01:39 <AndiK> Over time I'd add stuff here and there and expand in all directions
21:01:46 <Prof_Frink> Whereas I just go for world domination.
21:01:50 <SpComb> and a "very hilly" terrain (or whatever the second-last option is)
21:01:57 <SpComb> with enough lakes/seas to get in the way
21:02:20 <AndiK> After a few decades I have to stop traffic in some corners to do a complete (unique) redesign of a station or joint
21:02:23 <Ammler> well, signals every other tile is plain experience and not beatable for efficency
21:03:04 <Ammler> one tile is about 1km, so I think every 2. kilometer a signal isn't that crap.
21:03:13 <draconnier> i do them every 2 tiles
21:03:17 <Prof_Frink> When every coal mine is feeding one power station, it's necessary.
21:03:40 <Prof_Frink> (Around the power station, 4-5 tiles elsewhere)
21:03:44 <AndiK> If one tile is 1 km, then trains are really really fast...
21:04:19 <Ammler> the dimensions vary from thing to thing :-)
21:04:30 <frosch123> no, they are actually quite slow, but very long
21:04:47 <eekee> I typically allow a train length between signals. half a length where efficiency is needed
21:05:13 <AndiK> This discussion is nonsense.. ^_^
21:05:25 <Prof_Frink> This nonsense is a carrot.
21:05:53 <frosch123> we have to enjoy the R word as long as B is not here :)
21:06:42 <AndiK> Gotta get up early tomorrow
21:07:09 <SpComb> I always have five tiles between signals, 2-3 tiles at stations/junctions
21:07:47 <Ammler> I use about 10 on non coop games
21:07:56 <eekee> I have had trouble from too many signals, particularly where they're too close after an exit signal
21:08:57 <fjb> eekee: Plant fewer signals.
21:09:33 <frosch123> fjb: go 32 bit and use antialiasing
21:11:13 <fjb> frosch123: That is 32bpp, bot no alpha chanel used yet. I guess Ihave to try that.
21:12:08 <fjb> The new locomotives are not that easy to paint as I had hoped. That should be a BR 146.
21:13:34 <fjb> No wonder MB has only two of the modern engines in his 8bpp set.
21:15:09 <fjb> Are the full 8 bit of the alpha channel used for transparency?
21:16:23 <frosch123> though due to optimizing either 1/256 or 255/256 opacity is not possible
21:16:54 <fjb> That should be no problem here.
21:18:08 <fjb> The round edges against the background are the difficult part.
21:22:03 <peter1138> Generally 4 levels of transparency are enough/
21:23:10 *** welterde has joined #openttd
21:27:08 <fjb> Now I only have to find out how to paint in the alphy channel so that it has the desired effect.
21:37:14 *** Progman has joined #openttd
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21:49:46 *** [alt]buster is now known as [com]buster
22:04:48 <nappe1> ah... my own build is ready at last... :) took over a week to get it running. thanks peter1138 and SmatZ fixing those small annouances... :) we'll start the server in wednesday with starting year 1810, daylenght 2, Interest rate 25%, eGRVTS, NARS2 beta2 and of course, my own base cost that is not from this world. :)
22:05:26 <nappe1> (Small Airport you like? 4 million pounds please!) ;)
22:06:13 * peter1138 gives up developing his überpatch and goes to sleep
22:14:08 *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred
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22:32:52 *** reldred is now known as reldred|gone
22:36:37 *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred
22:37:42 *** reldred is now known as reldred|work
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22:47:11 <Kloopy> Hm. We had a desync on this nightly, haven't got a savegame for it though. Vanilla nightly, no grfs. :(
22:47:32 <Kloopy> The people who reconnected stayed there ok.
22:47:37 <Kloopy> But everyone desynced at the same time.
22:47:40 <Kloopy> No idea what caused it :(
22:48:09 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
22:52:32 <SmatZ> [00:47:40] <Kloopy> No idea what caused it :( <=== that's bad
22:53:24 <SmatZ> though I noticed a desync with disasters + YAPP ...
22:53:34 <SmatZ> I couldn't reproduce it...
23:01:25 <Marine> can i ask, why do some trains hit a signal and then turn around and go backwards and forwards?
23:04:23 <SmatZ> Marine: they reverse after a timeout
23:04:40 <SmatZ> then they reach a one-way signal at wrong direction, so they reverse back
23:05:20 <Marine> cos it was waiting for a tran to exit the station
23:05:32 <SmatZ> it is a relict from TTO and TTD ...
23:05:39 <SmatZ> but sometimes, it may be useful
23:06:15 <SmatZ> though with one-way signals and presignals, the need for that diminished
23:09:29 *** Jerimiah40 has joined #openttd
23:10:39 *** welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
23:18:17 <orudge> mv /backup/users/SmatZ /home/tycoon
23:23:31 *** ben_goodger has joined #openttd
23:27:03 <Tekky> and with YAPP, the need for automatic train reversal is completely gone :)
23:30:46 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
23:35:56 <Marine> another question guys, why would my friends diamond train be costing him money everytime some is delievered?
23:36:10 *** reldred|work is now known as reldred|gone
23:43:32 <Tekky> Marine: which version of OpenTTD are you using?
23:49:38 <Tekky> were the diamonds transported with only one train or were they transferred by another train beforehand, using the "transfer" order?
23:50:19 <VoiDeD> Transfer + unload, from diamond mines to a major hub
23:50:32 <VoiDeD> Where the train that lost money was hauling from the hub to a bank
23:51:47 <Tekky> was the distance between the diamond mine to the hub large compared to the distance from the hub to the bank?
23:54:40 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
23:58:29 <Tekky> the reason for your problem is that the total income you receive for transport is identical to the money you would have received if you had only used one train.
23:59:46 <Tekky> The first train is paid normally, depending on the distance it transfers the diamonds. And the second train is paid the the total sum minus what the first train has already been paid.
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