IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-08-29
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00:00:00 <Ammler> hmm, the "loading" problem might be something else
00:00:12 <Ammler> I have now same effect on server too
00:10:42 <nappe1> I think I found my bug...
00:11:11 <nappe1> Smooth Economy && Daylenght == No Go
00:11:28 <nappe1> now it did it again. :D
00:12:55 <nappe1> yep, something very weong with industry announcements... first of that kind causes that assert. and somehow it tries to show vehicle viewport to show that industry news.
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01:42:26 <Belugas> another stoke at REAL LIFE!
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06:33:46 <Forked> Good morning, sirs and ma'ams
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06:42:44 <eQualizer> Is there a way to stop trains reverse if their way is blocked?
06:43:19 <Noldo> no, but maybe you should make a patch for it
06:53:39 <eQualizer> Noldo: I don't know how to code. :(
06:53:44 <eQualizer> If I knew, I would.
06:55:21 <Forked> uhm, isn't there a pbs setting for it?
06:55:38 <Pikka> 255 is wait forever in TTDP, it isn't in OTTD? :)
06:56:39 <DaleStan> Assuming you can get to 255. ISTR hearing that something related to that is clamped to 1..100.
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07:03:24 <Noldo> 255 works for the pbs only
07:04:41 <Celestar> 58 EUR train ticket for Munich-Bonn and back
07:04:53 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
07:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> what could you possibly want in Bonn?
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07:11:27 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: Watching the Ballroom World Championship
07:12:17 <Celestar> and for 58 EUR return it's worthwhile
07:12:30 <Celestar> plus the train takes 4 hours from Munich to Bonn (Siegburg :P)
07:14:04 <Celestar> which is clearly faster than by car (unless you drive at night)
07:15:27 <Celestar> and frankly, I'm beginning to hate the stupid rotten germany highways
07:16:47 <Forked> so I managed to get to work on time today.. but only because I got up 1,5 hours earlier (and played openttd with cargodest..)
07:16:59 <Forked> I love bus stops with 1200 people waiting :\
07:17:21 <Celestar> I'm writing a patch to reduce generation
07:17:50 <Forked> I guess I'll level that part of the city somewhat to gain train access
07:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> and frankly, I'm beginning to hate the stupid rotten germany highways <- strange, we only have brand new highways here... :p
07:18:51 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, like the A8, the A6 and the A3.
07:19:02 <Forked> speaking of.. I keep running out of funds with dbxl :) might be because I use double engine sets and I'm replacing most trains
07:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm more thinking about the A9, A14 and A38 ;)
07:21:05 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: around Munich / Upper Bavaria we have: A8 (pre-WW2-condition mostly), A9 (overloaded), A90 (mostly unfinished), A91 (never built), A92 (unfinished, overloaded), A93 (never finished, overloaded), A94 (only 40% finished), A95 (not finished), A96 (still not finished, at capacity), A98 (not built), A99 (unfinished)
07:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> not to speak about the A36, which they had no money for. instead they built that exact same road, and called it B6 ;)
07:23:12 <Celestar> plus Munich has no connection whatsoever to the Germany High-Speed-Railway "network"
07:23:22 <Celestar> we're TOTALLY out in the boonies.
07:23:33 <Celestar> That's why we have one of the 30 busiest airports in the world.
07:28:02 <SpComb> they should tunnel the high-speed rail network over the airport network then
07:29:00 <Eddi|zuHause> on many routes, you are faster by train than by plane
07:31:01 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggs-work
07:34:24 <peter1138> Hmm, any objection to me using m6 bits 2-5 for level crossing animation frame?
07:40:36 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: not out of Munich
07:40:47 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: 6h to Berlin, 5:30h to Hamburg
07:40:54 <Celestar> over 5h to Dusseldorf
07:41:07 <Celestar> all this is faster by plane
07:42:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the trains go like where? via Saalfeld, Erfurt, Leipzig, Berlin?
07:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not exactly the fastest route known to man :p
07:42:30 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: Ingolstadt, Nuremburg, Lichtenfels, Jena ... two other backwater villages
07:42:39 <Celestar> oh sorry 5h to Berlin meanwhile
07:42:57 <Celestar> 1h Munich-Nuremburg, 3h Nuremburg-Leipzig, 1h Leipzig-Berlin :P
07:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, via the Frankenwaldbahn, which is a very hilly and very curvy route...
07:44:13 <Celestar> Germany misses 3-4 very critical High-Speed routes, plus the elimination of terminal stations in mid-country (Frankfurt and Leipzig come to my mind especially)
07:44:24 <Celestar> (Stuttgart too but it seems that will be done)
07:44:39 <Eddi|zuHause> they are building the city tunnel in leipzig
07:44:48 <Celestar> will the station be a through-station then?
07:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> connecting the bavarian station (south) with the main station (north)
07:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know how many problems that will solve...
07:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> because there is not much towards south :p
07:46:06 <Celestar> terminal stations costs a shitload of time and money, even with MUs
07:46:21 *** reldred|work is now known as reldred|gone
07:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> towards south is the route via Reichenbach, Plauen, Nürnberg
07:46:53 <Celestar> plus Munich-Hamburg is only bi-hourly :S
07:47:00 <Celestar> so are MOST routes :S
07:47:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ideally, they would need to route the trains to Dresden via the southern exit, but i don't know how they could manage that
07:48:13 <Eddi|zuHause> most "through" trains in leipzig come from north and go to dresden
07:48:20 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: tear down Leipzig terminal and build a 6-8 platform station underneath.
07:48:43 <Celestar> like they do in Stutgart
07:48:46 <Celestar> and should be doing in Frankfurt
07:49:48 <Celestar> Leipzig doesn't have that much traffic. 6 platforms should be plenty
07:50:04 <Eddi|zuHause> like they did in Berlin, 8 platforms in the (N-S) tunnel, and 6 platforms on the (W-E) bridge
07:50:46 <Celestar> but way too much for the little traffic that Berlin HBF gets :P
07:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> only they had no "Main Station" to tear down in the first place ;)
07:52:34 <Celestar> heh Leipzig HBF is the largest terminal station in Europe (measured by area), but has only 85000 passengers per day
07:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the main problem with the Leipzig-Reichenbach-Plauen-Nürnberg route is: it is not electrified!
07:53:24 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: the City-Tunnel-Leipzig will (apparently) NOT be used by long distance trains
07:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, like i said... there is no useful connection in the south...
07:54:00 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: well, the new highspeed-track to Erfurt/Nuremburg ?
07:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that's using the northern entrance
07:54:36 <Celestar> since Nuremburg is kind of south of Leipzig, innit?
07:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it's passing south of Halle, then joining the main track near Gröbers, and routing through the existing track via Airport, Leipzig Messe, i think
07:55:28 <Celestar> :S Munich should be given "The world's ugliest station" award
07:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> since the beginning of time, the long distance trains went from Leipzig via Thüringen (Jena, Saalfeld) to Nürnberg (the route they electrified during WWII)
07:57:10 <Celestar> hm .. Germany's busiest station is?
07:57:52 <Celestar> 450000 passengers per day
07:58:01 <Celestar> second place is Frankfurt and Munich with 350000 per day
07:59:06 <Celestar> Dresden has 50000 (=
07:59:20 <Celestar> I think that all includes S-Bahn
08:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "Zwischenzeitlich war geplant, einzelne Züge des Fernverkehrs durch den Tunnel verkehren zu lassen - diese Pläne wurden mangels geeigneter Ziele in Südsachsen [...] wieder fallen gelassen." <- that's exactly what i said ;)
08:05:44 <Celestar> apparently the Spanish dropped their plans of using the ICE3 at speeds up to 350km/h and limit them to 300km/h for the time being
08:06:04 <Celestar> so trip time from Madrid to Barcelona (650km) is 'stuck' at 2:41
08:07:18 * peter1138 restrains himself from pedanting a customer who wrote 'should of' in an email...
08:07:26 <Celestar> apparently moving the 350km/h would get that down to 2:25 while increasing total energy consumption by 30% :P
08:07:33 <Celestar> peter1138: should what? :P
08:08:42 <Celestar> but 2:25 for 650km is pretty coolish
08:09:49 <peter1138> Hmm, actually, how many animation frames does one need for a level crossing?
08:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause> smooth opening and closing of crossing bars ;)
08:11:58 * peter1138 wonders how many bits diagonal crossings needed...
08:12:28 <Celestar> peter1138: depends on the resolution we're planning on the long run.
08:12:48 <Celestar> peter1138: I'd guess 8 (=
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08:13:30 <peter1138> There are 6 bits free, 4 of them consecutive.
08:14:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you really expect the need for more than 4 bits?
08:14:59 <Celestar> how many bits for diagonal crossings?
08:15:18 <peter1138> That's the question :)
08:15:28 * Celestar wonders whether we should split tiles into logical units.
08:15:41 <DaleStan> 2 for roads and 6 for rails?
08:15:59 <DaleStan> (That's bits, not units.)
08:16:10 <Celestar> std::vector<std::list<Tile *> > _map;
08:16:35 <Celestar> turn tile into an ABC and use polymorphis for the procs.
08:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the main argument against that was always that the map array should be allocated contingously, for caching effects and speed
08:17:27 <Celestar> or just std::vector<Tile *> _map if we want to go simple.
08:17:49 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: then use std::vector<Tile> _map. works as well.
08:18:12 <DaleStan> Except for the polymorphism part.
08:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> for polymorphism you'd need vector<Tile*>, and then you don't have the allocation in one place...
08:19:32 <Celestar> well, you can have std::vector<Tile *> _map to have the stuff consecutively.
08:19:46 <Celestar> and I don't think we'd lose any speed
08:19:56 <peter1138> I think you're wrong.
08:20:00 <DaleStan> Nope. The pointers will be consecutive, but there's no guarantee that the pointed-to data will be consecutive.
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08:20:16 <Celestar> DaleStan: if you allocate it correctly, you can make that sure
08:20:21 <peter1138> At least 2 extra dereferences for each access.
08:20:31 <Celestar> _map[blah] = new (position) Tile;
08:20:39 <Celestar> peter1138: the question is: how much do they cost us?
08:20:48 <Celestar> peter1138: or do they cost us anything at all?
08:21:04 <peter1138> Clearly they are no free.
08:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> bah... i can't get anything done :(
08:21:41 <Celestar> peter1138: If the prefetcher is clever enough you might get that for free
08:22:08 <DaleStan> Indeed. Not free. How expensive depends on how well they can be optimized out (probably not at all) and whether or not they end up in cache when you want them. But even reading "memory" from the cache is not free.
08:22:48 <Celestar> DaleStan: we'd have to do a callgrind to really find out.
08:23:25 <peter1138> Anyway, I don't think diagonal crossings need 6 bits for rail.
08:23:38 <peter1138> I believe just 2 more bits would suffice.
08:23:45 <Celestar> DaleStan: then again, the polymorphic pointers could be really faster than the proc-array we have now.
08:24:20 <DaleStan> There are six possible rail pieces, unless you plan to forbid junctions.
08:24:25 <peter1138> We already know the axis, so with that there are only 4 possible track combinations, which conveniently is those 2 free bits.
08:24:54 <peter1138> Yes, I don't think junctions are necessary.
08:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> road junctions are...
08:25:27 <Celestar> on railway crossings?!
08:25:29 <peter1138> On level crossings?
08:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> how often have i felt the need on a diagonal crossing to place 3 road bits
08:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the 3rd side LOOKS free to attach another road, but it doesn't allow this
08:26:17 <peter1138> Great. We 18 bits for that.
08:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (thinking back to the MiniIN)
08:27:03 <Celestar> straight road, straight track
08:27:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the main problem of the old diagonal crossing patch was opening and closing of adjacent crossing tiles
08:27:17 <Celestar> rather use the bits for proper reservation (also for RVs)
08:28:21 *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred|work
08:30:47 <reldred|work> How about using PBS to force opening/closing of all the crossings in the signal block? Detect a crossing within a signal block, then force the entry signals heading towards the crossing to all be advanced one-way signals.
08:30:52 *** reldred|work is now known as reldred
08:30:52 <DaleStan> <Celestar> then again, the polymorphic pointers could be really faster than the proc-array we have now.< --I believe most compilers implement virtual functions using tables of function pointers. Either obj.vtable[index](args) or (*(obj.pvtable))[index](args). I'm not familiar with the current system, though, so I can't really compare.
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08:33:45 <Celestar> DaleStan: we do something similar
08:34:34 <Celestar> DaleStan: array of array of function pointers
08:35:22 <Celestar> that is clearly not faster than the table of function pointers (=
08:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really worry about the function access, i worry about the data storage
08:36:39 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: seeing the profile data, that doesn't really matter
08:36:48 <Celestar> at least not in the single-digit percentages
08:37:22 <Ammler> how long has today left in australia? :-)
08:37:25 <peter1138> Celestar, so are you suggesting a new-new map array?
08:37:47 <Celestar> peter1138: nah. I'll just give turning the Tile Types in classes a shot at one point
08:38:22 <peter1138> Won't that require a new storage system?
08:38:53 <peter1138> What about all our static inlines for map access?
08:39:12 <Ammler> Pikka: you bastard knows how to make it exciting... :-P
08:39:29 <Celestar> peter1138: they would still be inlines (=
08:39:58 <Pikka> Ammler: I'm waiting for Dan to come online and give me the last sprites I need. :)
08:40:51 <Celestar> peter1138: I just wanna know whether an std::vector of tile pointers has a noticable impact on performance (=
08:41:30 <peter1138> There is no reason to use a std::vector
08:41:38 <peter1138> The map size does not change in game.
08:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so the diagonal crossing should allow up to 3 road bits simultaneously, of one only one is actually crossed by rail
08:42:59 <peter1138> 1 bit for across it, 1 bit for junction.
08:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: what might be more useful would be to split the map in 16x16 segments. and then dynamically allocate additional 16x16 segments for under/above ground tiles
08:43:17 <peter1138> Then you need to factor in tram and hway...
08:43:21 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but that needs something else than what we have currently
08:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: finish cargodest first :p
08:44:13 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, that doesn't look like PBS :(
08:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> those are old (MiniIN) PBS
08:44:50 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: will do
08:44:55 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: then multistop
08:44:58 <peter1138> Oh yes, the visibly obvious 1 pixel yellow
08:45:01 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: then trying to work on the map array
08:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that yellow light is total rubbish...
08:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't want to overuse the r-word, but it has nothing to do with it :p
08:46:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the yellow pixel on the signals that are called PBS signals
08:47:22 <Celestar> they should be yellow when the next signal is red (=
08:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> there are no semaphore Ks ;)
08:48:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i have "working" advance signals, but combo signals are giving me headaches...
08:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i see 6 sensible combinations for 1 diagonal trackbit and up to 3 road bits
08:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> suppose the rail bit is in the lower corner, then there is 1) straight road in X axis 2) curve from lower X axis to upper Y axis 3) T-crossing from lower X axis to both upper tiles, 4-6 the mirrored pieces for lower Y axis
08:52:48 <DaleStan> Traditionally, junctions have been forbidden on half-tile roads, which is why I suggested two road bits. X and Y
08:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause> then that *4 for the other single-diagonal rail bits
08:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> then there are 2*2 states for double diagonal rails
08:54:17 <DaleStan> But after I think about it some more, that doesn't make much sense.
08:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> meaning 4*6+2*2=28 states for diagonal crossings, so 5 bits, plus one for separating a diagonal crossing from a traditional crossing
08:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and additionall headaches for tram
08:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the 28 states above leave enough room to fit the traditional crossings in
08:58:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so 5 bits should be enough
08:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> to specify the layout
08:58:50 <Celestar> when is the commuter airport released?
08:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never used those...
08:59:30 <Celestar> the stupid city airport is hardly better than the small one :S
09:04:42 <Ammler> Celestar: isn't the commuter only for small planes, too.
09:07:17 <peter1138> 5 bits? That leaves nothing for animation :(
09:10:43 <peter1138> Hmm, we could make a level crossing pool :p
09:10:43 <peter1138> Limited to 65535 crossings might be silly, hehe
09:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> commuter is a "small" airport
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09:13:22 <Celestar> peter1138: std::vector (=
09:14:03 <Celestar> better std::map<TileIndex, LevelCrossing> ?
09:14:10 <Celestar> faster in finding the crossing (=
09:15:48 <Celestar> peter1138: if you have a pool, how do you find the correct crossing?
09:16:16 <peter1138> (And I'm not really suggesting it)
09:16:27 <peter1138> m2 is traditionally an object index.
09:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes only sense when objects can span multiple tiles
09:17:20 <peter1138> Or if there is off-map storage.
09:17:31 <peter1138> Waypoints have an index.
09:17:46 <peter1138> Gah, stupid fucking plaster won't stick :(
09:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> a map (instead of a pool) is not the worst idea for some off-map storage
09:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... "map" is overloaded :p
09:20:04 <peter1138> Well if you had variable size tiles, then a waypoint would fit in the map.
09:20:12 <peter1138> Hmm, saving this new map array might be tricky, I don't know though.
09:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> when you know what you allocated, you can also save it
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09:23:47 <peter1138> And then you get to the issue of elevation
09:27:14 <Forked> Celestar: I saw one strange thing yesterday, cargodest.. suddenly a station claimed it found no route to a station .. I had a route to. Saving and reloading that same save fixed it. I have not been able to reproduce it :\
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09:33:21 <Forked> only thing I can recall doing is deleting a bit of a station - that caused it to be physically seperated from the bus stations it's attached to
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09:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that shouldn't change the route network
09:34:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i once had issues like that with autoreplace
09:34:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and once with changing a go via order to a go to order
09:35:06 <Eddi|zuHause> where i don't know if the latter is fixed
09:36:37 <Forked> so how does a station see if there is a route, by checking where the trains go?
09:37:57 <Eddi|zuHause> from the order list
09:38:09 <peter1138> BUG: soft lockup - CPU#2 stuck for 11s! [openttd:10726]
09:39:17 <Celestar> that maybe the reason for the one single desync we've seen the past days on nettesting
09:39:27 <Celestar> Forked: do you have any autosaves from before and after?
09:41:27 <Forked> Unsure really, I can't remember the time it happend .. so the normal save from right after is there, but not sure which one it is. :\
09:41:51 <Maedhros> --enable-osx-g5 enables optimalizations for G5 (OSX ONLY)
09:42:41 <Forked> I'll check though, might find it
09:43:10 <peter1138> What the fuck are optimalizations?
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09:45:14 <Celestar> why needs every of bjarni's patches triple-checking?
09:45:35 <Forked> note to self: 29th jul 1943
09:46:12 <Forked> celestar: no autosaves, played too much after it
09:46:23 <Gekz> peter1138: they're optimal optimizations
09:46:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14183 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: "optimalization" is not a word
09:46:59 <Forked> and like I said.. a reload (didn't quit the game, just save+load) fixed it. This was af0fc4
09:47:45 <Forked> I found the savegame I think I saved right after I saw it though, but might not be of any use?
09:48:35 <Forked> peter1138: af0fc47 :) the one I found on custom.openttd.org (I belive it was.. or rather.. someone pointed me to)
09:48:43 <peter1138> You want e79bdd28d8bb
09:48:56 <Forked> aw, only see he79bdd28 and the one I have
09:49:34 <Forked> will look at it later, I'm suppose to be working now. Thanks :)
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09:49:54 <Rubidium> the h says that it's a mercurial (hg) revision number
09:50:34 <Forked> I see it now, need more coffee
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09:53:02 <Brianetta> You lot should be grateful that you can't catch my headache over the internet.
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09:56:01 <peter1138> This timetable patch has so many options and buttons. It's confusing :(
10:10:01 <Brianetta> The 15:47 from Funfingford
10:10:34 * Brianetta hands fjb the Keningham timetable
10:11:13 <fjb> Thank you. But please not that station names as long as I'm tired.
10:11:28 <fjb> How is the patch working?
10:20:25 <Brianetta> but I do have a pounding headache
10:20:33 <Brianetta> so it's probably working better than I am
10:21:25 <fjb> Getting to few sleep because of all the new features in OpenTTD?
10:21:32 * TrueBrain gives Brianetta something for his headache
10:21:45 <shodan> i just put 8gb RAM into my machine
10:21:50 <shodan> my openttd is going to flyyyyyy
10:21:54 <TrueBrain> I hope you have a 64bit system
10:22:05 <Gekz> shodan: what makes you think that
10:22:23 <TrueBrain> LOL! You loaded so much newgrfs you need 8 GB? Cool :)
10:22:25 <Gekz> I could get 8GB of 100MHz SDRAM and it would still run slower than 128MB of 800MHz RAM
10:23:30 <Gekz> TrueBrain: native english speaker?
10:23:43 <Ammler> why binaries.openttd.org and not bundles.openttd..org ;-)
10:24:18 <Gekz> TrueBrain: do you speak english natively
10:24:29 <TrueBrain> why Ammler and not CrazyPerson?
10:26:14 <Ammler> will those cargodest binaries made automatically
10:26:23 <Gekz> TrueBrain: what is your native language?
10:26:44 <Ammler> we should really change our server to hg repo...
10:26:48 <TrueBrain> Ammler: not for now; hg repos are hard to produce automaticly
10:27:37 <TrueBrain> really is easier ;)
10:27:45 <TrueBrain> you can't check the revision of a remote hg
10:27:53 <Ammler> (as we have also update scripts...)
10:28:14 <TrueBrain> so there is no way to detect if ther eis a new commit, besides downloading the complete hg (which takes for ever)
10:28:19 <TrueBrain> well, at least: I didn't found a way yet ;)
10:29:06 <Ammler> can you have svn and hg repo in same folder?
10:29:13 <Ammler> so you can switch between...
10:29:20 <TrueBrain> how would that help?
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10:30:49 *** Pikka is now known as Pikka|afk
10:31:01 <Ammler> just thinking how we should manage the server(s)
10:31:33 <Ammler> now we have different checkouts for each server and copy the ./bundle/ ot the gamedir with autopilot
10:31:37 <TrueBrain> that is simple, hg checkout
10:31:41 <TrueBrain> run hg pull; hg update
10:31:44 <TrueBrain> when ever you want to update
10:32:29 <TrueBrain> (you can even update to a given revision)
10:32:54 <Ammler> why is the hg rev on the titlescreen shorter then on the web?
10:34:08 <Ammler> TrueBrain: current cargodest rev: e79bdd28d8bb
10:34:39 <TrueBrain> I thought serverlist ;)
10:34:48 <peter1138> The hg revision detection only uses 8 characters.
10:35:00 <peter1138> Woo, my bank balance is positive again :p
10:35:06 <TrueBrain> but yes, in OpenTTD all revisions are cut to 8 chars (git, hg)
10:36:58 <TrueBrain> Ammler: well, by the time svn gets 8 chars big ... :p
10:37:10 <peter1138> We've not got up to r100000000 yet...
10:37:43 <Rubidium> by then the first of the 9 characters is insignificant anyway
10:37:54 <peter1138> What Would OpenTTD's God Do?
10:38:15 <Rubidium> be amazed that it has that many commits
10:40:48 <TrueBrain> Ammler: we talked about revision, not about postfix ;)
10:41:05 <Ammler> quite important for svn
10:41:13 <TrueBrain> nothing to do with svn
10:41:19 <Rubidium> if we want long version numbers we should adopt TeX's version numbering system ;)
10:41:31 <Ammler> TrueBrain: your reason, why we shuld hg instead of hg
10:41:54 <Ammler> why we should use hg instead of svn
10:45:51 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> if we want long version numbers we should adopt TeX's version numbering system ;) <- 3.141592...?
10:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "This is pdfTeX, Version 3.141592-1.40.3 (Web2C 7.5.6)"
10:46:49 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: he didn't say pi's version, not?
10:47:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
10:48:33 <TrueBrain> btw, Ammler, you were right, you need to modify rev.cpp.in to get the postfix (or use --revision on configure :p)
10:51:56 <Ammler> TrueBrain: rev.cpp.in is better, as BOTTD user can't use the --revision argument
10:52:41 <TrueBrain> well, when it comes from SVN, it should happen automaticly
10:52:47 <TrueBrain> and I guess when you use 'hg branch', it should work too
10:52:55 <TrueBrain> but a pull can kind of ruin that ;)
10:57:11 <TrueBrain> gone for the day, have fun all :)
11:05:58 <peter1138> hg branch does not work on my version of hg :(
11:08:19 * roboboy decides to uninstall all versions of openttd from his computer and start from scratch
11:12:24 <Ammler> changing newgrfs on a running game is not recommend, I know...
11:13:12 <Ammler> but I found a strange thing, if you remove a unused set which is loaded before a used one, the used one will change the IDs
11:13:59 <Ammler> is that worth of a bug report? peter1138?
11:14:09 <roboboy> has anyone released a win32 binary of cargodest? and if so is there a link. I can not seem to find a link in the thread
11:16:36 <roboboy> what versiion would you recomend I have installed before I unpack cargodest?
11:17:19 <roboboy> 0.6.2 or will any 0.6.* version work?
11:17:40 <Forked> you don't need any other version installed :)
11:17:47 <Forked> you just need the usual files
11:20:54 <Ammler> roboboy: read the part about directories in the readme
11:21:27 <fjb> My planes are steeling all my express train passengers. :-(
11:21:28 <Ammler> that will make your life with multiple OpenTTD revs easier :-)
11:27:04 <peter1138> Brianetta, you can't argue with the tile-every-other-signal brigade.
11:27:23 <peter1138> Brianetta, you can't argue with the signal-every-other-tile brigade.
11:29:17 <Brianetta> Tile every other signal... that's dense signalling
11:30:14 <Brianetta> I like long signal blocks. Ideally, 16 tiles or so. Unfortunately, I often don't make routes long enough.
11:30:25 <Brianetta> I shoul dbe more expressive.
11:30:54 <peter1138> Well, I like low town density so there is more space :)
11:31:55 <peter1138> I might even consider something larger than 512x256... ;)
11:32:30 <Brianetta> My server uses 1024x256
11:32:40 <Brianetta> It's supposed to encourage long lines
11:32:42 <peter1138> Yeah, but it's 0.6.2 :(
11:32:46 <Brianetta> only Izel takes comlete advantage
11:32:59 <Brianetta> It's 0.6.2, but frankly that's hardly stable
11:33:10 <peter1138> But Izel does the signal-every-other-tile thing :o
11:33:22 <Brianetta> He signals *every* tile
11:33:26 <Brianetta> His lines look furry
11:33:37 <peter1138> Hmm, I think it wasn't in the current game.
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11:34:38 <Brianetta> He starts off with no signals
11:35:02 <Brianetta> When a section of double-track gets its second train, he signals them up to the chin
11:40:11 <peter1138> Have you seen any desyncs yet?
11:41:28 <Brianetta> Next game I'm adding Freight Stations Renewal
11:41:42 <Brianetta> or whatever it's called
11:41:55 <Brianetta> then after than, I'm adding egrvts
11:42:11 <Brianetta> I suspect egrvts will be the culprit
11:42:22 *** Pikka|afk is now known as Pikka
11:42:47 <Brianetta> If grvts gets to be a problem, I'll remove it for generic trams
11:43:04 <Brianetta> If it's not, I'll add Pikka's av8 back in
11:43:13 <Brianetta> and then Blunck's passenger stations
11:43:30 <Brianetta> and then the UKRS addon
11:44:58 <Brianetta> Once all that's in, Pikka's industries go in
11:45:04 <Brianetta> and we'll see ow that fares
11:51:25 <fjb> Belugas is sleeping right now, isn't he? So I may point out that a signal at every other tile is totally unrealistic. :-)
11:59:34 <Brianetta> I don't understand why Belugas is so anti-realism.
12:00:01 <Brianetta> I wonder if he plays Toyland...
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12:00:48 <Rubidium> Brianetta: he isn't anti-realism, he's anti-"this feature must be implemented at all cost because of realism"
12:01:17 <Brianetta> He doesn't come across that way (:
12:01:20 <peter1138> Rubidium beat me to it :o
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12:03:00 <Brianetta> If you double-head an electric with a diesel, and run it on unelectrified track, does the electric loco have running costs?
12:03:52 <Rubidium> he sometimes has little trouble expressing him in a detailed manner
12:03:55 <Brianetta> So there's absolutely no benefit to just electrifyin gan uphill slope, and having an electric only kick in then?
12:04:42 <Brianetta> Well, I suppose it's cheaper to build
12:04:56 <peter1138> Not really. NewGRF can control the running cost.
12:05:07 <peter1138> I don't know of any that do yet, but NARS2 might.
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12:06:34 <Brianetta> In real life, can any diesels use their power plant to power a coupled electric loco?
12:07:19 <Brianetta> I know EMUs have a power bus
12:07:53 <reldred> Belugas: Can you let me know when you have a build of OpenTTD with your newobjects feature ready for testing? I'm about to start getting sprites off of SAC and code them to the proposed newobjects standard, I can give both lakie and your implementations a thorough thrashing once I've got some code to play with.
12:14:24 <Ammler> fjb: how far is the gap between signals in RL?
12:14:57 <Ammler> then you know the scale is somehow strange in ttd, so one tile is about 1km for signals gaps :P
12:16:41 <fjb> Some km, the maximum breaking distance is 1km, when I'm not totally wrong.
12:17:48 <Rubidium> but a tile is 429 miles across
12:17:50 <Pikka> <Brianetta> In real life, can any diesels use their power plant to power a coupled electric loco? <- does a slug count as a "coupled electric loco"?
12:18:47 <fjb> Brianetta: The diesel lokomotives need their power plant for their own power.
12:19:47 <fjb> We need a "push the next train up that hill and then return here to wait for the next train train" order.
12:19:59 <extspotter> Thats just banking
12:20:24 <extspotter> so both locos would be powering themselves anyway
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12:21:52 <peter1138> It's not real, it's just better.
12:22:22 <peter1138> It is. I've used it.
12:22:33 <peter1138> It's more complicated though.
12:22:43 <peter1138> (Which is its biggest problem)
12:23:17 <Ammler> like cond orders, which are also nice.
12:23:54 <Ammler> presentation looks nice too...
12:24:54 <peter1138> My big problem so far is that when setting up the new schedule on a 4 hour route some of vehicles seem to start as 3 hours late, instead of 1 hour early
12:25:08 <peter1138> So instead of waiting to start, they trundle along being late all the time
12:25:39 <peter1138> But... it works better generally.
12:31:25 <Ammler> why do linux user never provide linux builds?
12:33:16 <Brianetta> Ammler: Linux nearly always comes with a compiler. They don't feel that providing a build is necessary.
12:33:42 <Brianetta> Personally, I'll only install packages, or software I've compiled myself.
12:34:06 <Ammler> OTTD is almost the only thing I compiled myself...
12:35:39 <fjb> Why is nobody providing FreeBSD binaries by default?
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12:37:41 <Ammler> downloading a 2.7M takes about 10 secs, selfcompiling needs about 10mins
12:38:10 <fjb> It has many advantages over Linux, e.g. it can bring up an network interface without an ip number.
12:39:56 <fjb> Yeah, but do that automatically at startup.
12:40:15 <Brianetta> echo ifconfig eth1 up >> /etc/rc.local
12:40:27 <SpComb> what are you using it for? Bridged networking/firewalling?
12:41:02 <SpComb> I'm sure it's possible to set up a bridged firewall with linux, even such that it starts up at bootup
12:41:17 <Brianetta> The Linux kernel is every bit as capable as the BSD kernel, and all the startup scripts work the same way.
12:41:47 <fjb> And /etc/rc.local is prone to errors when you are changing something at the setup. There is no way to bring a network interface up without an ip number in the usual network configuration.
12:42:22 <fjb> The place where you are configuring all the other network interfaces.
12:42:23 <Brianetta> Every major distribution has a different script for setting up the network.
12:42:52 <Brianetta> I'm conversant with all of them, and I'd just add the necessary commands to the scripts they call.
12:43:06 <SpComb> debian's /etc/network/interfaces supports "iface eth1 inet manual" and then some "up ip link set eth1 on"
12:44:29 <fjb> And it is hard to tell which network card is which interface. And there are cases when Linux tends to not always give the same number to the same interface on each startup.
12:44:34 <Brianetta> /etc/sysconfig/networking in Fedora lets you add arbitrary config, too
12:44:54 <Brianetta> Those cases usually involve hit-pluggable interfaces.
12:45:07 <Brianetta> ones you can unplug
12:45:21 * SpComb unplugs Brianetta's PCI ethernet NIC
12:45:36 <Brianetta> Don't pop my motherboard
12:45:43 <fjb> Yes, that kind of interfaces, but it tends to give them different numbers even if they get never unplugged.
12:46:13 <Brianetta> If they're USB, for example, and other USB devices get added and removed, the USB system gets ennumerated differently.
12:46:17 <SpComb> I encoutered that with xen + ubuntu, it had two vif's that were, for some reason, named as eth2 and eth1 (in that order)
12:46:31 <SpComb> but they worked correctly as eth0 and eth1 on the debian vms
12:46:35 <fjb> Even without adding other devices that tends to happen.
12:46:44 <SpComb> took a bit of debugging to figure out that the two interfaces were the wrong way around
12:47:10 <Brianetta> fjb: For a firewall, I'd recommend not using interfaces that might initialise in arbitrary order, then
12:47:20 <Brianetta> Either that, or write your config manually
12:47:21 <SpComb> FreeBSD has it's pluses, but not being able to configure address-less interfaces in linux is *not* one of them
12:48:43 <fjb> Configuring address-less interfaces on Linux involves a lot of custom things prone to errors or being forgotten when changing the network configuration.
12:49:13 *** FauxFaux_ is now known as FauxFaux
12:49:40 <SpComb> perhaps your issue is comparing freebsd against linux as a whole, and not considering that there are different distros
12:49:55 <SpComb> configuring address-less interfaces on *BSD is probably kind of error-prone and custom-things as well
12:50:42 <fjb> I tried Suse and Ubuntu. Didn't want to spend my time on trying the same thing on all that distributions out there to find the one that behaves different.
12:51:27 <SpComb> I was looking at OpenBSD's pf (or at least its man pages) last week, it looked pretty neat
12:51:28 <fjb> No, it is configured as all the other interfaces, you only neave the address blank.
12:51:56 <fjb> pf is really neat. FreeBSD has pf too.
12:51:59 <SpComb> presumeably better than what iptables has to offer
12:52:36 <fjb> iptables has nice features but is very hard to configure.
12:52:39 <SpComb> iproute does the n-addresses-per-interface thing quite well, you have separate `ip addr` and `ip link` subcommands
12:52:59 <SpComb> I've stopped using ifconfig and route alltogether
12:53:10 <SpComb> they could be deprecated for all I care
12:53:39 <fjb> More than one address per interface should be no problem for any Unix like systen out there.
12:53:59 <SpComb> yes, although with ifconfig they're silly things like eth0:2
12:54:13 <Brianetta> SpComb: route would be deprecated except that it's a POSIX command
12:54:28 <peter1138> Ammler, 10 minutes? :o
12:54:52 <Ammler> a guess, maybe more :-)
12:54:56 <fjb> That is only the case with Linux. ifconfig on other systems doesn't assign that silly names.
12:55:07 <Brianetta> I use ip for all permanent stuff, but ifconfig and route for dynamic stuff, since it usually involves less typing
12:55:28 <Maedhros> Ammler: try 2, and this computer is nearly 5 years old :p
12:55:34 <SpComb> `ip -6 ad sh dev eth0` is pretty concise
12:55:56 <Brianetta> concise, but not as easy to type.
12:56:02 <peter1138> Just took me 38 seconds including a make clean...
12:56:12 <Ammler> well, I take the time :-)
12:56:15 <Brianetta> Easier to select and paste (:
12:57:22 <fjb> So what is "ip -6 ad sh dev eth0" exactly doing? I'm not having a Linux manpage here at the moment. And my last try with Linux was a year ago.
12:57:42 <SpComb> shows the IPv6 addresses on the eth0 device
12:57:48 <Brianetta> It's bringing up an IPV6 interface.
12:58:11 <Ammler> plain checkout needs a min :P
12:59:05 <Brianetta> ip -6 address show dev eth0
12:59:14 <Brianetta> but without the lazy
12:59:36 <SpComb> or event ip -family inet6 address show dev eth0
13:00:34 <peter1138> It's addr, as listed in the command help, heh...
13:00:37 <Brianetta> You made him vanish
13:01:03 <Tekky> Who dared make me vanish?
13:01:08 <Brianetta> peter1138: It was originally address. Depending on how it was compiled, either work.
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13:01:33 * Brianetta ties lobster's beard to Tekky
13:02:11 <Ammler> done, 5 mins and another 70 megs on my hd :-)
13:08:07 <fjb> Don't read the german forum. They are discussing how to calculate the number of stars that get displayd next to the user name.
13:17:32 <fjb> Is briging really dependend of the town size? I never saw anything like that.
13:20:33 <Ammler> I am wondering if they will do it ;-)
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13:21:14 <fjb> No, why should I vote? And what should I vote for? 23 stars wouls be cool.
13:24:24 <fjb> "McDonald Douglas MD-8x Package" :-)
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13:33:04 <fjb> I should really vote. I would vote for vour levels. Then they can start discussing if the new level should have 2 or 4 stars.
13:34:38 <fjb> Oh, they deleted my account.
13:35:58 <fjb> I will not create a new account there just to vote, at least not if the vote for 4 levels has no chance to win.
13:37:47 <Pikka> lots of sound effects :O
13:38:11 <fjb> Oh, did NARS2 get released?
13:38:15 <Pikka> mind you, just the NFO is a meg and a half :P
13:39:35 <Ammler> and don't forget to read the pages
13:39:42 <Ammler> specially about parameters...
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13:48:35 <fjb> Is NARS2 compartible to industry sets?
13:49:56 <Pikka> if it isn't, I blame the industry set ;)
13:54:59 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
13:59:57 <sjabby> anywhere i can read about the new signals the advanced onws?
14:07:05 <Ammler> set looks awesome, looking forward to play with it...
14:09:33 <fjb> Now we need some 19th century building sets. :-)
14:09:47 * Pikka is off to bed.. night all
14:10:07 <Ammler> night Pikka and thanks :-)
14:12:51 <Ammler> I guess, found a small glitch
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14:19:50 <Ammler> the livery override for pass wagons seems not to work proper...
14:23:35 <peter1138> I wonder how different is it from the beta I tested a while ago.
14:23:50 <Ammler> it refits to newly engines, but not back, it seems.
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14:37:14 <fjb> I need a "reverse orders list" button.
14:38:36 <Celestar> peter1138: users request something like CTRL+click on a station in the station view window to move to a station. Can we move the view mode toggling to single click or to a separate button?
14:38:53 <extspotter> I need a lufthansa ATR
14:41:36 <fjb> I don't know simultrans. I want to clone the orders of a tram line and setupt a new line going the reverse direction.
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14:43:32 <fjb> Trams are like girls. They go to the depot all at the same time. :-(
14:43:53 <extspotter> are you setting up like a to b and then b to a
14:44:03 <extspotter> because then you could just do a to b to a
14:46:25 <fjb> Im setting up a to b to c to to e backto a.
14:46:49 <extspotter> then just do e - d -c - b - a - e
14:48:01 <Belugas> Response from Belugas concerning anti-realism :
14:48:08 <Tefad> wouldn't that just be d - c - b - a?
14:48:20 <Belugas> hope i've made myself a bit Clearer this time ;)
14:48:23 *** davis-- is now known as davis-
14:48:27 <Belugas> and that it make sens
14:48:34 <Belugas> hello all byu tghe way
14:48:37 <Tefad> or is this not mathematics ; )
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14:49:55 <peter1138> Celestar, it should be a button, or a dropdown list. CTRL+click was a quick hack ;)
14:50:37 <fjb> extspotter: Please make trams going that way zickzack betwenn the stations in a crowded city.
14:51:00 <extspotter> dont cross tramtracks
14:51:11 <Prof_Frink> extspotter: Or the streams.
14:52:07 <fjb> Belugas: If Georges industries are hardly fitting, then ISR is way out of bounds regarding TTD style.
14:53:32 <extspotter> Industrial stations renewal
14:53:51 <peter1138> Nah, ISR's eyecandy fits in with TTD's style.
14:54:32 <Belugas> they do fit in TTD's style
14:54:43 <fjb> ISR fits way better with George's industries than with the standard TTD industries.
14:55:33 <Belugas> George decided to use photorealistic industries
14:55:34 <fjb> Don't count the placeholder industry like the sand pit.
14:55:40 <Belugas> that's hardly fitting
14:55:45 <Belugas> they try to look realistic
14:55:58 <Belugas> while ISR, from waht i've seen, does not aim at that
14:56:08 <fjb> The coal mine, the factory etc are well fitting.
14:56:08 <Belugas> it's still a drawing and not a rendering
14:57:46 <fjb> And that are the industries with building stages and changes over time. So we can expect that those indsties are how the set will loke like when it leaves beta state.
14:58:08 <fjb> The rendered graphics are placeholders afaik.
15:08:22 <peter1138> The coalmine and factory, whilst not photorealistic, have a different style than TTD.
15:08:34 <peter1138> Nothing to do with realism though :)
15:08:34 <Celestar> extspotter: which ATR do you want?
15:08:51 <Celestar> peter1138: can you add a dropdown list? I've had an idea for another view type that might help
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15:22:55 <Celestar> peter1138: I'm pretty convinced I have found the last reason for desyncs in cargodest (the only one we hit)
15:24:41 <Celestar> peter1138: routing_classes.h:169 :D
15:25:55 <peter1138> Is that fixed then?
15:26:03 <Celestar> peter1138: that needs to be done.
15:26:55 <peter1138> Is there any way of doing the smallmap better?
15:27:08 <Celestar> peter1138: situation. station->xy gets modified. routes not recomputed (now). client goes off, client rejoins. client recomputes routing system with new station->xy. Game state different (the routing system might even be the same, but I'm pretty sure it'll affect the seed, will it not?)
15:27:15 <Celestar> peter1138: yes. Make it zoomable (=
15:27:23 <extspotter> Celestar - interested in doing it?
15:27:39 <Celestar> peter1138: VERY far off: click on a station blob, and display only routes into or out of that blob (=
15:27:47 <Celestar> extspotter: yes, but not before September 20 (=
15:28:23 <extspotter> its going to take a while to do the set...
15:28:25 <peter1138> Directly using the edge list instead of using the routingvector stuff (that was supposed to be a temporary thing, heh)
15:32:44 <Celestar> peter1138: well, we'd need to find the in-edges of a vertex
15:33:12 <Celestar> peter1138: this is only possible easily when we tell boost to store the in-edges of each vertex (is a one-word change, but increases memory consumption a bit)
15:33:29 <Celestar> and I think the RoutingVectorThingy is nice
15:34:15 <Celestar> peter1138: storing the in-edge would also simply (and greatly accelerator) updating when station->xy is modified.
15:38:19 <Forked> red food dye in the waffle mix didn't really give a good result.. I reccomend blue food dye for waffle mix, thats blue food dye. Have fun :)
15:41:52 <Ammler> Belugas: I hope you flagged it for "forever" :-)
15:42:30 <Ammler> hehe, I should scrolldown before replaying...
15:43:23 <peter1138> That's okay, we understand.
15:44:08 <Belugas> Ammler, what are you refering to?
15:45:35 <peter1138> Okay, I understood :p
15:46:13 <Belugas> ho... the paste... well.. i'm gonna place it in my dev space, i guess
15:46:38 <Belugas> so i'm going to repeat myself endlessly :S
15:46:41 <roboboy> my game of OTTD is turning out really good with your and celestars patch peter
15:48:59 <roboboy> I restarted a few hours ago after failing with UKRS at 1920 so I restarted in 1951
15:49:38 <roboboy> shall post screenies in the morning/when I get time
15:55:52 <Celestar> peter1138: store the in-edges or not? :P
15:58:56 <Celestar> for the drawing for example, for the recomputation of routes after station->xy has been changed...
16:01:44 <Celestar> peter1138: on a reasonably large game, this increases virtual memory consumption by 0.1% :P
16:02:43 <peter1138> If xy changes, just mark appropriate bits dirty
16:02:50 <peter1138> Or restart the whole lot :p
16:03:32 <yorick> Celestar: 1000 x 0.1% is quite a lot
16:04:04 <Celestar> peter1138: restarting would be the easiest way really
16:04:10 <Celestar> peter1138: seeing that station->xy changes are rare
16:04:16 <Celestar> peter1138: but it feels clumsy
16:04:45 <Celestar> yorick: ok in other words, I have 112kb more memory usage with storing the in eges. Whole game needs 66MB :P
16:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause> 640kB ought to... wait...
16:05:43 <Rubidium> ought to be enough for a 1 pixel pcx, right?
16:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that model is totally out of (TTD) scale :p
16:06:15 <yorick> Celestar: yes, a single copy-paste template 255x255 is 40kb... doing a 2048x2048 one is around 40MB
16:06:59 <Forked> OpenTTD h:e79bdd2 (Not Responding) :\
16:07:15 <Celestar> Rubidium: dunno if you read it. found the last (and only) desync reason in cargodest (=
16:07:29 <Forked> Celestar: did it have anything to do with the thing I saw yesterday?
16:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you zoom out the picture to 12% you can't distinguish the double pantographs
16:08:11 <Celestar> Forked: with the thing when the station sign moves?
16:08:26 <Forked> Celestar: nope.. the thing where suddenly there was no route, but a reload made it refind it :)
16:09:09 <Forked> lets see if I can crash this again
16:09:22 <peter1138> Found the *next* desync reason is more likely :P
16:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how that problem could make a route suddenly disappear
16:09:46 <Celestar> peter1138: I've tried VERY hard to desync it (=
16:09:51 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: neither do I (yet)
16:12:00 <Forked> yay.. 7383 passengers to a local trainstation .. and I just had to try and rebuild the whole local mess :) (could not reproduce crash, meh)
16:18:13 <roboboy> I just got charged for dropping or picking up passengers
16:18:53 <roboboy> or atleast I saw red text saying cost and the only thing that happened under it was one of my trains arrive at its station
16:19:20 <Forked> roboboy: there was something about that in the thread on the board
16:19:46 <Celestar> peter1138: we needa do something about the payment. For example show the income for the whole route in the final vehicle.
16:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> recalculate the transfer credits for the new total credit, and weight it by individual step distance
16:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> example: A-B is 10 tiles, B-C is 20 tiles, C-D is 10 tiles, in some kind of U shape (A-D = total distance 30 tiles)
16:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> when transferring at B, store the distance travelled (10) and show an animation for the preliminary virtual income
16:26:51 <Eddi|zuHause> when transferring at C, calculate the new A-C payment, the new transfer credit of the A-B route gets calculated by A-C income*10/(10+20), and B-C by A-C income*20/(10+20)
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16:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> then when delivering at D, calculate the A-D income (X), and then distribute it by X*10/(10+20+10), X*20/(10+20+10), X*10/(10+20+10)
16:28:22 <Celestar> why that complicated.
16:28:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the preliminary transfer credit is almost always too high
16:28:37 <Celestar> when the cargopacket is created, the system knows where it goes to anyway.
16:28:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so it will get lowered this way to the real share
16:28:51 <Celestar> so we can like guestimate it beforehand (=
16:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> not when destinations are off
16:29:21 <Eddi|zuHause> which has the same problem, only it surfaces not so often
16:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not "complicated", it's a simple weighted mean
16:30:44 <Celestar> code wide it's not easy because you need to store a crapload of things.
16:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, you need to attach a complete list of travelled vehicles to the cargo packet
16:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and it makes it difficult to join packets
16:31:29 <Forked> this metro network is driving me nuts :\ I can't get it to both work smoothly AND shift all the god damn passengers
16:31:59 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: it makes it basically impossible to join packets
16:32:07 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: so memory and cpu consumption will skyrocket
16:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause> an alternative is to disband the cargo packet, create a new one at the transfer station, and make real payment. so waiting time at transfer stations will not be taken into account
16:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> only real travel time will get accounted for
16:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't need to be real payment, can still be virtual
16:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but each segment will not be influenced by the previous segment
16:35:08 <Celestar> I'd just reduce transfer payment by a factor of two or something
16:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> that might help, but not completely...
16:36:30 <Eddi|zuHause> and will get you in real trouble when switching companies is possible
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16:39:33 <Eddi|zuHause> on final delivery, you need to reconstruct exactly which company was responsible for which part of the transfer chain
16:39:49 <Celestar> peter1138: whats your opinion on this?
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17:21:52 <yorick> someone finish combo...
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17:27:06 <Celestar> back back fwd fwd back left back left right hipunch
17:28:36 <Celestar> openttdcoop will get a whole new meaning with cargodest I'm telling ya
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17:37:34 <Brianetta> This "feature" is really annoying
17:37:50 <Brianetta> Many times I've wanted to close a station window, but keep the station's train list open
17:38:01 <Brianetta> Just as I can with the train list for an orders sheet
17:38:33 <glx> it's not a feature, it's a fix :)
17:39:10 <glx> only train list was closed
17:39:17 <Brianetta> That was bad enough
17:39:24 <Brianetta> Now all of them close
17:40:03 <Brianetta> Perhaps, for consistency, you should also have the vehicles list froma shared orders window close when you close the wrong train?
17:41:07 <Brianetta> Is there a particular reason why the related vehicle lists must be closed?
17:41:21 <Brianetta> Normally I want the vehicle list open but the station window closed
17:41:48 <peter1138> Oh, is that what that commit was...?
17:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> some of these forced window closings drive me crazy sometimes
17:42:13 <Prof_Frink> peter1138! NewWindowShade!
17:42:40 <Brianetta> Still, at least I now know what to change to fix it
17:42:49 <Eddi|zuHause> like when the order window closes just because i want to see what a train has loaded
17:42:50 <glx> it's like that since r1009
17:43:07 <Brianetta> glx: That doesn't some how make it less irritating
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17:44:20 <Brianetta> Still, I have the diff for that commit, now, and I only need to delete for lines and change the + to - in the other four
17:46:25 <Brianetta> Shame I have to fudge the Makefile for multiplayer compatibility )-:
17:47:28 <DorpsGek> glx: Commit by tron :: r1009 /trunk (18 files in 2 dirs) (2004-12-10 18:16:08 UTC)
17:47:29 <DorpsGek> glx: -Feature: per-station vehicle lists
17:47:30 <DorpsGek> glx: This adds a little button per vehicle class to the station window which opens a list of all vehicles that have this station on their schedule.
17:47:31 <DorpsGek> glx: As side effect this gets rid of some global variables.
17:47:52 <glx> the auto close came with the lists
17:48:07 <Brianetta> There's no auto close on orders lists
17:48:13 <Brianetta> which is so much better
17:48:48 <Brianetta> I'm just testing out the new "doesn't close" feature
17:51:06 <Brianetta> Oh, that's so much better
17:51:14 <Brianetta> I can just lose the station window an dkeep the list open
17:51:39 <Brianetta> There was me thinking it was some unavoidable side effect of being a child object or some nonsense
17:51:46 <Brianetta> to find that it's four lines of code
17:51:50 <Brianetta> and I can just delete them
17:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no notion of "child" windows ;)
17:52:41 <Brianetta> You want my patch? (-:
17:52:46 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: there is...
17:53:04 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: but there are also false childs
17:53:26 <Brianetta> Losing the orders window when closing the vehicle, that's fair enough
17:53:36 <Brianetta> but the vehicle lists are useful in their own rights
17:54:44 <Brianetta> Once I've got it sorted and sized to manage all the trains using X terminus, there's nothing more annoying than forgetting that closing the station's window will close my train list
17:55:05 <Brianetta> because I'm always closing station windows
17:55:23 <Brianetta> They're so easy to open, because trains are easiest to click when they slow down at stations.
17:56:09 <Celestar> I won't have time for coding this weekend :(
17:56:15 <Celestar> peter1138: you're on your own in cargodest :P
17:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> how difficult would it be to not open a station window when clicking on a train that is in a station?
17:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i pretty much never want the station window
17:58:11 <Brianetta> It's easy enough to click the sation signif you *do* want it
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18:02:10 <Eddi|zuHause> how about introducing a default station non-track-tile, and storing the non-track-edness in the map independently from the grf? that way you could build bufferstops and warehouses on "incompatible" slopes without worrying about the default fallback
18:06:14 <Brianetta> Eddi: Why should such station tiles be railway station tiles at all?
18:06:23 <Brianetta> Introduce a new station tile type
18:06:53 <Brianetta> generic tile, attaches to airports, docks, bus stations, rail stations, and doesn't have to add a train to the station sign
18:10:34 <Brianetta> I *still* don't understand why Belugas is so anti-realism.
18:10:52 <Brianetta> He just listed a whole load of ways that OpenTTD wasn't as good as real life (:
18:11:27 <Rubidium> Brianetta: he isn't against realism, he is against realism as an argument to force us to code some feature
18:11:37 <Brianetta> Yeah, you said that earlier
18:12:02 <Brianetta> He only addressed that bit in part 2 of his text file
18:12:31 <Brianetta> Besides, since when could anybody force anybody to code something?
18:13:37 <peter1138> So far it only works on myself though :(
18:13:44 <Brianetta> Can you get code committed, though? (:
18:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but he often dismisses features that have gameplay value just because it might have remotely to do with realism
18:15:34 <Brianetta> Rubidium: These desyncs definitely seem to be newgrf based, and specifically, are related to newgrfs my server isn't running right now...
18:15:34 * bruce89 wonders if OpenTTD is getting too complex
18:15:49 <Brianetta> I have a plan of re-introducing them
18:16:03 <FauxFaux> There're too many choices for some things. Pathfinders.
18:16:05 <Brianetta> Once I know which grf causes desyncs, I'll let somebody know
18:16:37 <Belugas> Brianetta, i don't mind realism in game. I think i brough some features that are pro-realism.
18:16:48 <Belugas> but to me, realism should only be a side-effect
18:16:52 <Belugas> the game is not a simulator
18:17:03 <Belugas> SAC tress are wonderfull
18:17:10 <Belugas> they do add a good degree of realism
18:17:27 <Brianetta> They don't act any differnetly form regular TTD trees
18:17:41 <Belugas> no, they just do LOOK good
18:18:10 <Brianetta> I remember one realism argument against having double-headed locos being able to keep moving in the event of a breakdown
18:18:40 <Belugas> and that's the kind of stuff I find utterly boring...
18:18:57 <Belugas> or like that argument about speed plane while in breakdonw
18:19:10 <Belugas> or planes that shold not be in the air while break dones
18:19:11 <Brianetta> Whereas for other,s it's the choice between spending more for a more reliable service, or less for a less reliable service.
18:19:29 <Brianetta> See, you totally diverted from double-headedl ocos to planes
18:19:35 <Brianetta> For some reason, it always goes there
18:19:53 * Brianetta couldn't give a toss about the planes
18:19:53 <Belugas> Brianetta, tell me... what the game would gain out of it?
18:20:10 <Belugas> doj't say realims, it's not an argument
18:20:28 <Brianetta> Belugas: If there were shared infrastructure, you could reduce your chances of a breakdown blocking somebody else's network at great cost
18:20:31 <fjb> Apropos SAC's trees. Is there a version out there with building stages and snow yet?
18:20:50 <Brianetta> You could invest in a double-headed train in order to keep a busy network from jamming every time one broke down
18:21:04 <Brianetta> or, yuo could choose not to invest like this, and risk the breakdowns
18:21:22 <Brianetta> I never mentioned realism, but anti-realism is always the reason why it's dismissed
18:22:17 <Belugas> could you repeat the whole discussion of the double head stuff?
18:22:38 <Belugas> or at least summarizxe it?
18:23:19 <Brianetta> Double headed locomotives (that is, more than one on a train) should be more resistant to breaking down, perhaps limping off to the depot at reduced soeed to get fixed.
18:23:23 <Brianetta> That's about the sum of it.
18:24:46 <Belugas> why should they be more resistant?
18:24:47 <Brianetta> Or just limping along their regular route intil fixed.
18:24:55 <Brianetta> Because there's two of them
18:25:01 <Brianetta> One breaks down, the other one drags it.
18:25:30 <Belugas> so you mean one would end up pulling the other plus the convoi?
18:25:45 <Brianetta> You'd lose the broken down one's HP, but keep its mass
18:25:56 <Brianetta> and perhaps it'd have a wagon-style speed limit
18:26:10 <Belugas> but what is the point of being two adding more resistance?
18:26:17 <Brianetta> which they can already do where they are
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18:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> <fjb> Apropos SAC's trees. Is there a version out there with building stages and snow yet? <- last statement that i read from SAC was around the lines of "those aren't even drawn yet, because my scenario is temperate, so i focus on that"
18:26:38 <Brianetta> Breakdowns are a bitch when they happen at a busy crossing
18:26:50 <Brianetta> If your train could keep going, it'd be worth investing
18:27:05 <Belugas> Brianetta, i don't see the point of reducing breakdonws because they are two
18:27:14 <Brianetta> You're not reducing them
18:27:22 <Belugas> i agree that maybe on a break donw, they might continue with reduced spedd,
18:27:28 <Brianetta> but unless they *both8 break down, the train doesn't sotp
18:27:57 <Belugas> currently yes. but it may be due to some code conditions
18:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "single point of falure"
18:28:07 <Belugas> i'm not aware too much of that part of the code
18:28:24 <Belugas> and i don't know how easily it can be done, if ever
18:28:40 <Belugas> but antin-realism wold nit be an argument from me, for sure
18:28:54 <Brianetta> It's a simple idea, but usually it gets shot down after somebody brings up "hey, it's realistic / not realistic enough / what about broken down planes
18:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you add a second independent system, so when one breaks, the whole system can be kept running
18:28:59 <yorick> the breakdown smoke isnt made to move with the train
18:29:19 <bruce89> what about planes which get impounded?
18:29:30 <Belugas> Brianetta, the point of bringing the planes in is more about balance than anythi g else
18:29:37 <Brianetta> yorick: I for one could stand to see one not smoking whilebroken down. I'd get over it, with counselling, I'm sure.
18:29:49 <Brianetta> I never build planes.
18:29:51 <bruce89> for not paying the landing charges
18:29:53 <Belugas> you caoonot "fix" something on one part of the game withouth doing the same on other conditions
18:30:01 <Brianetta> I did build some helicopters in a recent game
18:30:27 <Brianetta> Besides, double headed trains would break down like planes do (:
18:30:32 <Brianetta> It's *more* balanced
18:30:54 * Sacro would love to have dual cl20 trains :D
18:31:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i don't understand the plane argument either
18:31:01 <Brianetta> Single headed trains would be just as lousy as they are already
18:31:43 <Tekky> you should also distinguish between the TRAIN braking down and the ENGINE braking down.... in the original Transport Tycoon Deluxe, there was no such distinction. But now that we may have multi-headed trains, I think such a distinction is necessary.
18:32:20 <Sacro> maybe after a vehicle collision the whole train breaks
18:32:24 <Sacro> but normally just the eingine does
18:32:29 <Brianetta> I'd like to be able to stop a broken down vehicle.
18:32:59 <Brianetta> Currently you have to watch it like a hawk and stop it as soon as it gets fixed.
18:33:08 <Brianetta> bruce89: They have a wagon
18:33:10 <Tekky> a malfunction in the fail-safe braking system of a carriage of the train is also a frequent cause of a train brakedown.
18:33:25 <Brianetta> Tekky: That's realism speaking (:
18:33:48 <bruce89> DMU carriages can be locomotives though
18:33:58 <Brianetta> All wagons can be locomotives
18:34:18 <Brianetta> Depends how much work the newgrf author puts in
18:34:27 <Brianetta> hylje: out of noses
18:34:57 <Brianetta> UKRS is less realistic with Voyagers
18:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> problem can be the ET-87, as they have a "fake" locomotive
18:35:06 <Brianetta> They're a DMU, sure, but every car is powered
18:35:12 <hylje> speaking of special bogies, /me would enjoy a slot-based upgrade system for vehicles in general
18:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> so they are double headed when they really aren't
18:35:21 <Brianetta> in the UKRS, though, you addpassenger coaches
18:35:46 <Brianetta> Eddi: Sounds like out class 91 with its DVT
18:36:18 <Belugas> Tekky gave me an idea tough,,, depending of how the code is done, maybe some random cause of breakdonw can be programmed
18:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: ET-87 is an engine in the middle with two steering wagons
18:36:30 <Belugas> so there might be differnt effects of break dones
18:36:39 <bruce89> no wonder TTD is the way it was
18:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: but the GRF does not allow that, so they have a 1hp "engine" and a 499hp "powered wagon"
18:36:47 <Belugas> those who sto the vehicles and those who just slow them down
18:37:19 <Belugas> but hey... i'mnot going to venture there.
18:37:27 <Belugas> got already toomuch to do
18:37:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: so the have two "engines" (in game terms), when they only have one (in reality terms)
18:38:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so the partial breakdown stuff would malfunction
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18:38:20 * bruce89 would like a wee combo saying "OTTD mode" and "TTD mode" instead of huge numbers of preferences
18:38:36 <Brianetta> That post links pics of the Class 91 gear
18:38:55 <Tekky> I have another idea for breakdowns: Instead of trains braking down for a fixed interval, the train is broken down until a repair train reaches the broken down train. As soon as a train breaks down, a repair vehicle is automatically deployed form the nearest depot. :)
18:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but is totally unrelated ;)
18:39:20 <Belugas> bruce89,up the sleeves and start coding ;)
18:39:28 <Brianetta> Not totally. The APT was going to be a little like that,
18:39:43 <Brianetta> with a power car in the middle and two DVTs
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18:41:08 <Belugas> or better yet, use both games ;)
18:41:49 <bruce89> I just think that patch dialogue is gey big
18:42:11 <Brianetta> "The APT-P trains were designed as two half-trains with twin power cars in the middle, sharing one pantograph."
18:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that the ET-87 were constructed in 1914 ;)
18:44:54 <Brianetta> Not as fast, though
18:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> they were not meant for express service
18:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> (but that's only a 2 part train)
18:46:12 <Brianetta> They resemble a tram.
18:47:19 <Brianetta> Couldn't that be built as a single articulated unit in TTD?
18:47:33 <Belugas> Brianetta, how the train would look like when slowed down by one a of double-head breakdonw?
18:47:42 * hylje wonders how comfortable it would be to ride that train at 160km/h
18:47:43 <Belugas> waht visual impact would there be?
18:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> MB used the same construction mechanism as the ET-87 for them in the DBSetXL ("unrealistically" making it a 3 part train)
18:48:13 <Brianetta> Belugas: Aeroplane-style smoke perhaps, reduced speed, and a red flag in the window.
18:48:13 <hylje> because those newfangled local trains which go up to 160km/h shake somewhat
18:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> he said something about gameplay value
18:51:18 * Belugas likes the plane-smoke idea
18:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> those established track records in the late 1930's that were not broken until the ICEs came
18:51:28 <Brianetta> It's a good looking train. I don't think a train of that shape has ever operated in the UK
18:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also a 3 part variant of those
18:52:11 <Sacro> Brianetta: more tram shaped
18:52:13 <Brianetta> The one in the top photo
18:52:19 <Brianetta> Is it really coupled to an S-Bahn?
18:52:26 <Sacro> actually, might be similar tube stock
18:52:42 <Brianetta> Sacro: Straßenbahn means tram (:
18:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: that's basically a "museum track" in the Leipzig Main Station
18:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a "Ferkeltaxe" next to it, that was used for S-Bahn service
18:53:43 <Brianetta> Cool. All our museums are off the mainline; even York's big museum has its own premises adjacent to the station
18:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and two old electric engines
18:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's so close, but i have never managed to go there...
18:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i have absolutely no time this weekend...
18:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> we have "Laternenfest", which is like the biggest festival of the town each year
19:06:47 <peter1138> Hmm, I've not desynced
19:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> how dare you! :p
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19:09:45 <LordAzamath> peter1138: Are you here?=
19:10:04 <Forked> I love the scripts that autoreply to such questions :)
19:10:46 <peter1138> I wondered why my signals had changed back to normal signals.
19:10:53 <peter1138> Then I remembered it's 0.6.2 :o
19:11:06 <LordAzamath> anyway, Can you do me a favour. To split off the nfo errors related discussion from the OpenGFX topic
19:11:36 <LordAzamath> I think I've filed a report on it too, a while ago, but maybe I didn't hit the submit button :P
19:11:53 <LordAzamath> because there has been no action about it :P
19:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "It turned out that the tilting mechanism was, in effect, working too well. It was perfectly compensating for lateral forces around curves, which induced motion sickness, since the eyes could see turning but the body did not feel it; reducing the tilt by a few degrees so that the curves could be felt cured this." <- that's cool :p
19:14:34 <bruce89> Pedolinos use the same technology I hear
19:16:24 <Brianetta> bruce89: They do. Also, the Mk4 passenger coaches were always ready for a retrofit to tilters.
19:16:49 <Brianetta> It's just that they're only used on the East Coast Main Line, which has no corners to speak of.
19:16:53 <peter1138> Ammler, or the GRFs should be coded properly.
19:17:39 <Ammler> well, guys which load the wrong grf is just one problem, we also have "our" MP problem.
19:18:24 <Brianetta> It's a shame that the game can't tell which palette a newgrf is using, especially since newgrf is supposed to be modern.
19:18:45 <Ammler> 2 palettes makes the whole handling unneeded complicity
19:19:21 <Brianetta> complicity means they're teaming up
19:19:22 <peter1138> The problem is, everyone uses Windows GRFs, but DOS GRFs can have more colours...
19:19:38 <Brianetta> peter1138: Is that a problem>
19:19:48 <Brianetta> Which newgrfs have more colours available int heir DOS version?
19:20:04 <peter1138> At least Michael Blunck's, I suspect.
19:20:26 <Brianetta> I could switch. I have the DOS files on CD too.
19:20:40 <Brianetta> I suspect most people just pirate the files from Owen
19:20:46 <Ammler> I guess, he just use the dos palette, because it is "better" organised
19:20:51 <Brianetta> He has made Windows ones available.
19:20:53 <peter1138> Firstly we need to detect if the NewGRFs are for Windows or DOS.
19:21:07 <Ammler> but as he likes to have windows grf too, he has to exclude those colors, too.
19:21:20 <peter1138> (Or just have a manually set flag somewhere)
19:21:26 <peter1138> Ammler, no, they just get lost in the conversion.
19:22:00 <peter1138> Replaced with a similar colour.
19:22:14 <peter1138> Hmm, on the other hand... we support 32bpp...
19:22:18 <Ammler> like described on "his" palette image.
19:22:23 <peter1138> Palette need not actually matter.
19:23:12 <peter1138> Here is the definitive reason why multiheaded breakdowns don't behave differently.
19:23:55 <peter1138> We just haven't bothered doing it yet, and noone's done a patch.
19:24:00 <peter1138> Except that one in the forums.
19:24:58 <peter1138> Back to palettes...
19:25:01 <LordAzamath> btw, peter1138, to be an annoyance, can you then split off the DaleStan - Foobar discussion from OpenGFX thread?
19:25:22 <peter1138> If DOS contains all of Windows' colours, then everything can be converted to DOS. Hmm.
19:25:57 <DaleStan> Unless there are Windows grfs that use the pinks.
19:26:19 <peter1138> Get your spanner out!
19:26:20 <DaleStan> I know MB uses the pinks, but I think he uses pinks that appear in both palettes.
19:27:28 <DaleStan> On the other hand, the pinks are too similar for me to visually distinguish them.
19:28:42 <frosch123> You cannot automatically convert between dos and windows grfs when the grf supplies his own recolor sprites that remap pink. Though I don't know whether some grfcoder uses that or might ever want to use...
19:31:00 <fjb> peter1138: 32bpp would be best choice, there are not enough kinds of red even in the DOS palatte to get near the different kinds of red the german railways used to use.
19:32:39 <frosch123> btw. I dreamed of replacing grfid and md5sum by some cryptographical hash that reprensents non-static grf properties like the action1/2/3 tree after activation. So real sprites would not matter anymore :)
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19:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> you have sick dreams :p
19:34:17 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: frosch123 studied in Clausthal, that may cause such ideas. :-)
19:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> too much alcohol-free beer you mean?
19:34:47 <frosch123> I read the unofficial hg book at work
19:35:07 <frosch123> to much waiting for compiling, data model generation and such...
19:37:04 <peter1138> fjb, well, just convince MB to make 32bpp graphics then ;)
19:40:19 <fjb> peter1138: :-) I alraedy tried to convince him to include two additional locomotives in the next release of the DBset.
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19:41:06 <fjb> But any existing GRF could be used on a 32bpp display without conversation.
19:41:46 <extspotter> can you explain 32bpp to me
19:41:52 <extspotter> how is it different to 8bpp
19:42:02 <extspotter> I know it is more detailed, but what else
19:42:29 <ben_goodger> 8bpp = eight bits per pixel, three channels, 256 colours
19:42:30 <peter1138> It is not more detailed.
19:42:37 <fjb> 8 bit for read, green and blue each and additional 8 bit for the alpha chanel.
19:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> 32 is more than 8
19:42:50 <ben_goodger> 32 bpp = 32, four channels including a transparency channel, and 16,700+ colours
19:43:09 <extspotter> so you can actualy have the correct colours
19:43:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 16 million, not 16 thousand
19:43:25 <extspotter> that would be so good for arriva in the BRset
19:43:30 <extspotter> there is no turquoise
19:43:32 <fjb> extspotter: Almostr, but should be good enough for TTD.
19:43:34 <peter1138> Indeed, 16,700,000 colours...
19:43:45 <extspotter> well not one that looks right anyway
19:44:05 <extspotter> in terms of sprite creation
19:44:10 <extspotter> how much more difficult is it
19:44:25 <ben_goodger> must have missed the "k" key
19:44:39 <peter1138> You have to mess around a bit to get company colours to work.
19:44:59 <peter1138> If you're not doing company colours, it should be easy, as there are no colours you have to worry about not using.
19:45:09 <Forked> I need to expand my network, but I spend all my time keeping the one I have in shape.. and it's not a big one :\
19:45:18 <fjb> peter1138: Company colors per alpha chanel?
19:45:39 <Brianetta> I'd like to give each vehicle its own colour scheme.
19:45:39 <peter1138> Company colours are done with a separate 8bpp image.
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19:46:01 <extspotter> Are the sprites made bigger then condensed
19:46:12 <peter1138> You can make them how you like.
19:46:13 <Brianetta> extspotter: Often they're direct pixel art
19:46:17 <peter1138> They're the same size in game.
19:46:30 <Brianetta> Pikka's AV8 planes are rendered
19:46:36 <extspotter> Yeah,I wasn't sure because comparing 8bpp to 32bpp looks way mroe detailed
19:46:49 <peter1138> AV8 is rendered and then tweaked to look right :)
19:47:06 <extspotter> which is why I am using it as my base for the uk plane set
19:47:21 <extspotter> the ATRs we have already done look sooooo fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine
19:47:28 <fjb> But how about palette animation, like airport lights and end of train devices?
19:48:00 <peter1138> Also uses the separate 8bpp image.
19:48:36 <extspotter> I'd better take the birthday boy for a night-time walk
19:48:44 <extspotter> see you in about 15 mins
19:48:51 <peter1138> Oh, is it Sacro's birthday?
19:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> <extspotter> Yeah,I wasn't sure because comparing 8bpp to 32bpp looks way mroe detailed <- that's because the artists make them bigger, but that is not supported in the game
19:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. you must not question the peter1138.
19:54:48 <Eddi|zuHause> for his words are holy
19:55:26 <peter1138> Full of holes, maybe.
19:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, the jumbo jets strike again...
19:58:18 <peter1138> dbg: [grf] [custom/pack/7.2/1_other/OpenGFX/OpenGFX_-_newInfrastructure_v0.6.grf:1208] LoadNewGRFFile: Unexpected sprite, disabling
19:58:59 <fjb> I lost total track of my passengers network...
19:59:06 <peter1138> The reason we allowed it to continue is our NewGRF parsing used to suck.
19:59:41 <glx> it's better than it used to be
20:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so now we can assume that the newgrf sucks instead?
20:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i should really not turn on the lights...
20:04:25 <peter1138> DaleStan, there's something for you to reply with ;)
20:04:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14184 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf.cpp): -Codechange: [NewGRF] Since our NewGRF handling is better than it used to be, disable a NewGRF if unexpected sprites are reached.
20:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it causes a full recompile :p
20:09:12 <peter1138> Oh, LordAzamath left.
20:10:07 <Ammler> I hope they not just fix that sprite, they should also a little bit tune the tracks...
20:10:23 <peter1138> That's their problem.
20:10:28 <peter1138> I like the original graphics ;)
20:10:37 <peter1138> Which reminds me, I need to ... test ... this NARS2.
20:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> does it have additional railtypes in it? :p
20:11:31 <peter1138> No, but it can replace the default rail graphics.
20:12:05 <peter1138> It's optional though, and doesn't, afaik, affect the stats.
20:12:14 <peter1138> So it should be simple to make a standalone replacement railtype.
20:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of soundeffects, it was said
20:14:34 <Belugas> right... that reminds me i wanted to touch the ambient sounds callback or somehting in that waay...
20:14:45 <Belugas> there are SO MANY stuff to do :(
20:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> add full realism :p
20:15:30 <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause, just because it's you, i won't kick you :)
20:16:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "irony" around civilised people :p
20:16:34 <peter1138> Belugas, at least the basis of generic callbacks is supported.
20:16:40 <peter1138> You only need to call it ;)
20:17:13 <Belugas> indeed, at the proper timing and such. I know where to hook it up, just needed time to do it properly...
20:17:21 <Belugas> taht and finding a test grf ;)
20:17:23 <peter1138> Rubidium, since the ini changes, my NewGRF config doesn't seem to be saved...
20:17:53 <glx> is there a grf using callback 144 ?
20:18:33 <peter1138> Yes, but I don't know which.
20:21:10 <fjb> Since the sound system got reworked some weeks ago I often have no sound at all when the screen is crowded with vehicles. Sometimes one get one of the sounds every other minute.
20:22:34 <peter1138> Hmm, those tracks are really narrow.
20:23:53 <Belugas> sound system reworked??
20:24:30 <fjb> I was told so. At least that behaviour changed some weeks ago.
20:24:58 <Belugas> ho.. again a case of urban legend...
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20:25:49 <Sacro> insulfrog: noticed you went in #simsig last night
20:26:36 <Belugas> i like those assessments: I was told, I think i've seen or read, i guess etc etc...
20:27:08 <Belugas> i don't deny that fjb, but since i'm not aware of any sound system rework, i may have to dispute your assessment
20:27:36 <insulfrog> Sacro: but I'd probably forgottern to say hi :)
20:27:50 <Sacro> insulfrog: heh, yeah, i was out at a friend's though
20:28:26 <fjb> I asked about that change here and one of the devs told me that something changed in the code. Don't remember who it was and I did not lookm at the code.
20:29:11 <insulfrog> well, I'm just going to have a quick go on TTDP for a bit
20:29:57 <Belugas> fjb, <something> is not <system rework>
20:30:05 <Belugas> freaking big difference
20:30:34 <Belugas> that's how false information is being transmitted
20:30:49 <fjb> I had remembered it that way. Maybe is misunderstood it. My English is not the best.
20:30:51 <Belugas> We HAVE A NEW MAP ARRAY GOING ON
20:31:02 <Sacro> [21:30] <Belugas> We HAVE A NEW MAP ARRAY GOING ON
20:31:12 <Belugas> [16:30] <@Belugas> which is false...
20:31:19 * Sacro likes to misquote people
20:31:20 <Belugas> [16:30] <@Belugas> that's how false information is being transmitted
20:31:34 * orudge deletes c:\openttd\new-map-array then
20:34:45 <peter1138> Hee, 3000 ton train ;)
20:34:52 <peter1138> Maybe I need two engines.
20:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> how can you dismiss feature requests with "requires the new map array" when you tell them that there is no "new map array" being developed? :p
20:35:18 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: use a E 94 ;)
20:35:52 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: it's just the perfect excuse for not implementing certain features :p
20:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i need longer passenger wagons :(
20:39:21 <Belugas> requires new map array
20:39:48 <Wolf01> I need a new map array, does it require itself?
20:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't... it just needs a "no bend" flag for articulated vehicles
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20:40:27 <Belugas> i think you have been contaminated by George :)
20:40:52 <peter1138> No, George wouldn't do it that way.
20:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't want bigger vehicles, the engines and freight wagons are fine. just longer passenger wagons
20:41:21 <peter1138> There's no nob end flag.
20:42:48 <Eddi|zuHause> articulated vehicles solve the drawing issues with tunnels and stuff, and the no bend flag would make the vehicle stick to the previous vehicle in bends
20:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, there was a grf with longer wagons, which was that?
20:43:55 <Wolf01> stupid newindustries grfs... I need to fund new industries every 5 years.. and now I don't have enough money
20:44:12 <fjb> I remember 20px long wagons, one of the eastern european sets.
20:44:24 * ben_goodger quietly laughs to self
20:44:41 <fjb> Wolf01: ECS? Build statues.
20:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> ECS really sucks...
20:44:59 <fjb> peter1138: Then it was 40px.
20:45:16 <peter1138> I bet MB still isn't using the 32px depot handling...
20:45:36 <fjb> Ecs doesn't suck, it just is in early beta state.
20:46:00 <fjb> peter1138: What is the "32px depot handling"?
20:46:03 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, I don't remember which GRF that was, but I do remember it.
20:46:26 <peter1138> fjb, gives the depot window the same spacing between wagons as in the game view.
20:46:36 <peter1138> By default it is 32 pixels in game, and 29 pixels in the depot.
20:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> how did they do it? make the sprite for one wagon longer, and the other wagon invisible?
20:46:50 <peter1138> This is why DBSetXL overlaps and does nasty stuff in the depot.
20:47:06 <peter1138> There has been an option for a long time to make the depot using 32 pixels too.
20:47:25 <fjb> How does TTDP handle the depot?
20:47:30 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, I don't remember that detail. I have a feeling it did actually just bend.
20:47:39 <peter1138> TTDP has that option too.
20:48:35 <fjb> Does that save him some drawing?
20:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's just a single flag to set...
20:49:02 <frosch123> the car transporter in the serbian rail set is an articulated wagon
20:49:23 <peter1138> It makes it look prettier, but MB has in the past based his sprite lengths on the 29 pixel length.
20:49:38 <peter1138> This is why some of the shorter wagons have massive gaps between them.
20:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i think he once said he intended to use 32px in version 0.9
20:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but my memory might be vague there
20:50:39 <Rubidium> peter1138: the NewGRF config saving works for me
20:50:54 <frosch123> maybe we should bundle dbset 0.9 with ottd 1.0
20:51:05 <peter1138> Preset saving works, just not the current config.
20:51:22 <peter1138> frosch123, no, ottd 1.0 would never get released ;)
20:51:33 <fjb> So what scale should one use when starting a new train set?
20:51:39 <glx> peter1138: after game start?
20:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the not-george-scale
20:52:00 <peter1138> 32 happens to divide into 1/8ths easily too.
20:52:52 <peter1138> 4 pixels is the base unit for wagon length.
20:53:10 <fjb> Yes, long vehicles like modern coaches have to be out of scale shortened that way. But width and height should the vehicles have?
20:53:34 <peter1138> 8 pixels wide and 12 pixels high I think it is
20:53:54 <fjb> Short vehicles can be in 4px steps be shorter than the full 32px length?
20:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> catenary is 11 pixels high i thought
20:54:09 <peter1138> Yes. 32px - 28px - 24px, etc
20:54:18 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yes. We draw that incorrectly :p
20:54:24 <Rubidium> peter1138: but I tested saving the 'current' config and that works for me
20:54:40 <peter1138> Minimum is something like 12px due to wagon-following-tricks.
20:55:05 <fjb> What is the wagon-following-tricks? Sorry for asking that much.
20:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> just remember wagons can't be shorter than 3/8
20:55:59 <glx> Rubidium: hmm it doesn't work for me (but maybe it's because I have some duplicates in the cfg)
20:56:02 <peter1138> fjb, wagons in a train follow the wagon ahead.
20:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e the "reduce length" property set to 5
20:56:25 <peter1138> Rubidium, I just deleted everything in the list, quit, restarted, and it was still there.
20:56:50 <Rubidium> peter1138: maybe you've got duplicate entries in the .cfg?
20:56:51 <fjb> The interesting thing would be parts of an articulated locomotive. Say it has three parts. How short is the middle part alowed to be? 12px?
20:57:10 <Belugas> bye bye, see you next weel
20:57:57 <peter1138> Only one [newgrf] section.
20:58:18 <glx> Rubidium: I cleaned the config it still fails
20:58:52 <peter1138> If I delete them all, then add one, then quit, all the old ones are there, and the new one is too.
20:59:08 <Rubidium> ah, so nothing gets deleted?
20:59:26 <peter1138> "So why didn't we say so?" :)
20:59:39 <Ammler> we are not able to fund forest
20:59:54 <Ammler> it appears a msg it needs to be above snowline
21:00:12 <Ammler> but we have now january and the snowline is about 3 tiles lower
21:00:24 <peter1138> A message appears that it needs to be above the snowline.
21:00:28 <Ammler> might it be a problem with dynamic snowline?
21:00:34 <frosch123> the maximum snow line matters
21:01:11 <Ammler> frosch123: bug or feature? :-P
21:01:36 <frosch123> when a industry must be above snowline, it shall be above snowline the whole year
21:02:20 <fjb> Another question about the scale if you don't mind: UKRS, NARS, Canset, and DBset are within that pixel boundaries but still have a different scale. Which fits TTD best?
21:02:47 <Ammler> frosch123: for default industries, I see
21:03:00 <Ammler> else they look strange if there is no snow :-)
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21:07:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14185 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix (r14153): removing NewGRFs from the config file was impossible.
21:07:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14186 /trunk/src/pbs.h: -Fix [FS#2255]: small typo (Jafinto)
21:10:24 <frosch123> Ammler: the highest snow line test is only done for default industries, newgrfs have to implement their own test
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21:11:26 <frosch123> and they can only get current snow line
21:11:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14187 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Fix (r14104): silence warning when compiling without networking enabled.
21:12:56 <Ammler> players spent about 1 billion until they realized it :-)
21:13:22 <frosch123> oh, they tried to prespect :p
21:14:37 <Ammler> then I changed to fund at the msg came,,.
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21:40:13 <insulfrog> well, i g2g, cya :)
21:40:15 *** insulfrog has left #openttd
21:57:15 <Rubidium> and GT failed the test
21:57:27 <GT> You know what I meant.., or else you are
21:58:28 <Rubidium> I did, before you said something ;)
22:00:22 <Rubidium> lalala should be reacted on with pompiedom. Any variation of the lalala should be reflected in the pompiedom. So in this case the correct replies would've been pompie, pomdom, piedom, piepom, dompie and dompom.
22:00:46 <Rubidium> only "dom" is incorrect; would've been valid for la though
22:01:21 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it is mos tlikely the first time you replied correct (just for the record
22:01:44 <fjb> Something eats my money...
22:02:40 <fjb> Hm, no a fleet of 747 getting replaced...
22:03:04 <TrueBrain> those old 747 were getting dangerous
22:03:42 <Rubidium> fjb: silverfish help in eating money too
22:03:49 <fjb> Yeah, luckily few accidents.
22:03:55 <peter1138> Rubidium, cool, a one-liner fix :)
22:04:42 <fjb> Rubidium: I should go hunting silverfish in real life.
22:04:59 <GT> Rubidium: thanks for the lesson, just when I started to think it was a useless day I did learn something today that is of invaluable use for the rest of my life
22:05:19 <fjb> But I really lost control of the passenger flow...
22:06:58 <Rubidium> you haven't heard of T5? It's something aviation related ;)
22:07:54 <fjb> No, not really. I refused to make a flight licence.
22:08:10 <Rubidium> T5 is the new terminal of Heathrow
22:08:11 <peter1138> Terminal 5, probably.
22:08:16 <Rubidium> and it had a few problems
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22:09:58 <Rubidium> basically the baggage handling didn't work as expected the first few weeks
22:10:06 <glx> probably not worse than CDG 2E ;)
22:10:14 <Sacro> i had more issues with Budapest than T5
22:10:16 <Forked> This sounds like heathrow
22:11:11 <Sacro> budapest "forgot" to load my luggage onto the plane
22:11:18 <Sacro> but loaded some due for tel aviv on instead
22:11:51 <Rubidium> then use a proper airline ;)
22:13:17 <ben_goodger> opening ceremony, with HM Queen Elizabeth: "this is where we lose all the baggage, ma'am..." "and this is where we cancel all the flights." "how interesting!"
22:13:17 <ben_goodger> good old private eye
22:13:17 <ben_goodger> I think it was BAA's fault, actually, rather than the airlines
22:13:25 <ben_goodger> (british airport auth.)
22:14:10 <fjb> Ah, that famous terminal. Didn't Monty Python sing about Heathrow?
22:14:29 <ben_goodger> probably, but not about terminal five :P
22:14:31 <peter1138> Not about T5 though :)
22:14:38 <peter1138> Oh for gods sake :o
22:14:52 <ben_goodger> sorry, I live here. :P
22:14:59 <fjb> So they didn't learn at Heathrow?
22:17:09 <Rubidium> Narita Airport is much better: landing to waiting to board next plane takes less than 30 minutes including baggage claim, immigrations and checkin for the connecting flight
22:17:38 <Rubidium> even checking in or taxiing at Amsterdam Airport takes longer than that :(
22:18:03 <fjb> Which town approves the building of an airport? That with the center with the shortest manhattan distance to the airport?
22:18:03 <ben_goodger> I hope to visit heathrow at some point in the near future, however
22:18:05 <ben_goodger> or rather, I probably won't be able to avoid it
22:18:11 <ben_goodger> mmm, at newquay also
22:19:17 <fjb> Be careful not to disguise an a terrorist.
22:19:46 <TrueBrain> that in general is a good suggestions
22:20:59 <Rubidium> but then, maybe the Japanese have organized their stuff better: "your plane will be delayed two hours because we need to replace a cracked windows, please come to the desk with your ticket to receive a food/drink coupon of 15 euros and go that way to go back to the unsecured area where you can use the coupons". And exactly two hours after the original departure time we were leaving.
22:21:12 <Rubidium> Usually I only hear a plane is delayed
22:21:21 <Rubidium> they don't know how long it will take
22:21:32 <fjb> I'm in trouble building a new airport next to a really big town. That town is sourrounded by small villages, and they control the whole area outside the town. :-(
22:21:42 <Rubidium> and that you can basically buy yourself another cup of tea
22:23:01 <Sacro> we where sat on a plane
22:23:05 <Sacro> and the fual line was broked
22:23:13 <Sacro> so we sat for an hour on the tarmac at budapest
22:23:46 <ben_goodger> I can believe all the rest, but I can't believe a cup of tea could cost 2300 yen
22:25:05 <Rubidium> ben_goodger: no, tea's much cheaper, but it really amazed me that they were that clear about it and that they immediatelly started giving out those coupons
22:25:21 <ben_goodger> yeah...that's entirely believable
22:25:45 * Rubidium assigns peter1138 to newsleep
22:25:54 <ben_goodger> I have no unpleasant aeroplane anecdotes due to my tender age, but I do know that heathrow has been using "naked scanners" for about a year --- they use some form of radiation that passes through clothing and reflects off skin, to display a live-updating nude picture of each passenger (and any dangerous tubes of toothpaste, etc on their person) as they walk through the scanner
22:26:10 <peter1138> Born_Acorn! NewSleep!
22:26:16 <Sacro> ben_goodger: mm scanning?
22:30:41 <ben_goodger> apparently the operators are the same sex as the passengers
22:30:41 <ben_goodger> this is meant to preserve human dignity
22:30:41 <ben_goodger> it fails in this area
22:31:16 <fjb> Hm, be aware of female terrorists...
22:32:02 <ben_goodger> well, females are scanned also
22:32:15 <ben_goodger> however, passengers can opt out, and be patted down --- which ruins the entire point
22:33:32 <fjb> The anti terror hype is way beyond any point.
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22:35:01 <Rexxars> trying to compile the daylength patch in, and theres some changes to the language files
22:35:19 <Rexxars> stupid question, but how do I compile the new language files? :P
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22:37:10 <TrueBrain> (oh, bad bad bad :p)
22:38:40 <fjb> Can somebody answer my airport question? Please.
22:38:54 <glx> Rexxars: what are you using to compile?
22:39:04 <TrueBrain> fjb: yes (or no, I don't know the question)
22:39:30 <fjb> Which town approves the building of an airport? That with the center with the shortest manhattan distance to the airport?
22:39:33 <Rexxars> all I can see that it outputs is strings.h ^^
22:39:56 <glx> then don't worry about language compilation it's done when creating strings.h
22:40:10 <Yexo> fjb: afaik that's correct, but note that the topmost tile of the airport counts
22:41:24 <Rexxars> well everything else compiles, so I want to play it.. but the language files arent being compiled (or at least, I can't find em, heh)
22:41:35 <fjb> So I have a town with a noise level of 32, but it is that big, that every tile outside that town is closer to the ceter of one of the surrounding towns.
22:44:21 *** bruce89 has joined #openttd
22:44:24 <Rexxars> nevermind, I'm an idiot... found em :p
22:49:06 <fjb> Somebody complains that the grf is broken, he is not able to get the buffers right.
22:53:45 *** ben_goodger has joined #openttd
23:00:32 *** ben_goodger has joined #openttd
23:16:48 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
23:20:14 *** lobster_MB has joined #openttd
23:54:02 <fjb> One of my brand new 747 crashed. :-(
23:58:51 *** reldred|gone is now known as reldred
continue to next day ⏵
