IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-05-01
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00:04:28 <coaxial> anyone know standardgamer?
00:13:48 <Belugas> that's a game? a riddle?
00:15:51 <coaxial> well his name comes up in the logs anyway
00:16:07 <Belugas> does no ring a bell, sorry
00:16:49 <coaxial> whats this or anyway? gamedev?
00:20:06 <Belugas> yes, as well as user advice and general chatting
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02:09:01 <glx> avec des espaces c'est mieux
02:10:14 <ln> i've got some french girl's phone number in my phone now.
02:10:48 <ln> as if it made any damn difference about anything.
02:13:51 <ln> and that bonsoirmercivoilà phrase was what a funny contrôleur in Suisse train said to everyone
02:14:57 <glx> "take ticket" and "give ticket" are the spaces ;)
02:16:32 <ln> and a thumbs up gesture after the voilà. :)
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06:27:17 <Patrick`_> what's the difference between a duck?
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07:00:59 <mynetdude> talking to yourself tonight Patrick`_?
07:01:12 <Patrick`_> no, I just lost the game
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07:28:11 <Roest> how are we this morning
07:32:02 <Alberth> quite nice, sun is shining, enjoying my days off, figured out that I should make a doc about intra-window comm so we can have a discussion.
07:32:16 <Alberth> only minor problem is lack of mail from FS
07:33:41 <Alberth> devs must be very busy with other things
07:34:26 <Roest> guess they have it a little slower after the stress of the last weeks
07:34:57 <Alberth> that is also part of 'other things' :)
07:35:58 <Roest> good thing is, with less commits, less problems to merge old patches :)
07:37:07 <Roest> though i must say, a little dev feedback on what needs to be done to get something at least considered for trunk would help every now and then
07:37:42 <Alberth> indeed. In my case, I want to stack a few patches on top of currently waiting patches. However I don't dare doing that without confidence that the current ones are ok
07:38:19 <Alberth> on the other hand, plenty of room for experimenting with next steps
08:05:48 <Roest> hmm having twenty gazillion vehicle grfs might be nice, but i guess i just stick to one trainset
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08:32:36 <peter1138> "primarily removes the fixed engine type limits"
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08:32:51 <peter1138> "also happens to allow multiple NewGRF vehicle sets to coexist"
08:33:45 <Roest> just tested it, with several trainsets activated
08:33:53 <Roest> i can tell you it works tho
08:35:37 <Roest> morning Ammler, btw do you guys keep the grf pack updated somehow?
08:35:59 <Roest> or is 7.0 the final version
08:38:36 <peter1138> it's in svn, isn't it?
08:38:43 <peter1138> so you can svn up occasionally, heh
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08:44:20 <Alberth> I definitely need to play more with GRF files
08:46:14 <Roest> peter1138: they hid their svn url pretty well
08:51:21 <Ammler> it just needs releasing
08:52:00 <Roest> well i checked out from svn now
08:52:40 <Roest> i wonder if the german rv set will ever be released, that homepage leads to a 404 now
08:53:29 <Ammler> Roest: trunk won't be compatible with servers.
08:53:46 <Ammler> thats why we hide the trunk :-)
08:55:28 <Roest> so i just tested my patchpack and noticed a train driving on the wrong side, thought: great something broke yapp
08:55:55 <Roest> then i noticed it didnt even have a path to the right side, so everything is good now
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09:02:42 <wleader-away> Quick question, Who be the master of wiki.openttd.org?
09:03:01 *** wleader-away is now known as wleader
09:03:47 <wleader> well, yes. But I mean more along the lines of who administrates it.
09:09:26 <wleader> Looks like the usual suspects.
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09:29:12 <Ammler> Roest: that stationtiles are still in working progress, you won't find them anywhere.
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09:36:07 <Roest> grammar sergeant peter1138
09:36:36 <peter1138> can't scroll its media library lists without clicking on each one first
09:37:16 <Roest> besides ammler is swiss, they haven't even decided on one language yet
09:38:00 <Ammler> we have added a 4. some years ago :-)
09:38:41 <Roest> i'm thinking about starting a new paxdest, but that task seems so huge, i rather sit here and do nothing
09:39:46 <Ammler> that would be the 4. one?
09:40:07 <Roest> i don't know, i only know the one we're using right now
09:41:14 <Roest> but i don't think anyone can fix the mutiplayer issues in the current one
09:43:09 <Ammler> prissi did the 2. almost a year ago
09:43:22 <peter1138> destinations needs to be done in stages
09:44:01 <peter1138> it also needs to be not passenger only
09:44:05 <Roest> yes peter1138 that's what i'm thinking, the current one is too big and overloaded with features
09:47:15 <Roest> step one would be generate the list of connected stations, though the question is limit destionations to connected stations, all stations or even all towns
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10:03:05 <Ammler> omg that would be too much realistic, you would need to make the network for the cargo, not like now, where the cargo follows your network :-)
10:03:56 <Ammler> new tiype of gameplay then.
10:03:57 <peter1138> it should of course be optional
10:04:15 <peter1138> no destinations, passenger destinations, and all cargo destinations
10:04:36 <peter1138> the current patches are way too strongly tied to passengers only
10:05:36 <Ammler> same like ECS, more will be too complicated to play
10:05:51 <Roest> ecs is already too complicated imho
10:06:00 <peter1138> actually, 4 options
10:06:13 <peter1138> no destinations, passenger destinations, all non-freight cargo, and all cargo destinations
10:06:25 <peter1138> third includes mail and valuables
10:06:40 <peter1138> i think valuables anyway
10:07:17 <peter1138> ecs is way too complicated with its secret codes and such like
10:07:22 <peter1138> and the graphics don't fit in too well
10:07:49 <peter1138> in the industry view window
10:07:50 <Roest> non freight? i take it that passenges, mail and valuables?
10:08:04 <peter1138> Roest: yes, as i said
10:08:55 <peter1138> no, they can go in the tanker wagons i reckon
10:09:10 <Roest> transport giant had an interesting approach, every town had a random list of other towns on the map where passengers want to go
10:09:33 <peter1138> that might be a simple solution
10:09:50 <Roest> but that wouldn't work with inner town transports
10:10:10 <Roest> unless you divide them into commuters and travellers
10:10:23 <peter1138> do it on a per-station basis then, instead of per-town
10:12:09 <Ammler> Roest: I guess, prissi did something like this
10:13:11 <Onack> split them into travellers and workers :P
10:13:37 <Onack> workers within a city and travellers(eventually buissnessmen) to other cities
10:14:25 <Roest> actually i dislike that idea
10:14:36 <Ammler> I miss that "cargo-type" on the ECS scheme
10:14:57 <peter1138> just have more local traffic than long-range
10:15:05 <peter1138> could be a difficulty setting
10:15:24 <peter1138> otoh, local traffic is easier to transport but less profitable
10:17:18 <Onack> and a worker would never use a chopper or a concorde
10:17:47 <Roest> and a businessman never a bus
10:18:21 <Ammler> that would push Roujins Traffic patch
10:19:03 <Onack> if this was possible it could also be smarter to have fewer but larger cities
10:19:43 <wleader> You can have fewer and larger cities by using minimum town distance, and adjusting town growth.
10:20:03 <Onack> i havent tested it mutch, thanks ill test it
10:20:35 <wleader> The town growth settings are in the trunk. Minimum town distance is not, but its a very simple patch that adjusts a constant.
10:20:42 <Onack> problem in large cities atm is that bus stations got 2000 passangers
10:21:27 <Onack> by dividing the people into classes
10:21:37 <Onack> you need different transportations for different classes
10:22:09 <Roest> ammler most trams dont solve that problem
10:22:28 <Roest> their capacities are too low compared to busses
10:22:39 <Ammler> with the new conditinal orders you can build really nice pass networks
10:22:44 <peter1138> that's what 'tourists' exist for, heh
10:23:23 <Onack> tourist is a class yes :)
10:23:39 <peter1138> wleader: nice warning :)
10:23:39 <Onack> but doesnt solve that everyone and their mother wants to use a helicopter
10:24:17 <wleader> peter: On the wiki pages?
10:24:38 <wleader> peter: Just trying to play nice.
10:28:25 <Ammler> wleader: yorick reached to pack a MP save TS / YAPP combination
10:28:58 <peter1138> still doesn't make sense
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10:29:34 <Ammler> we had desyncs with the civ
10:29:55 <Ammler> but no desyncs with yorick's patchpack
10:30:38 <wleader> I was just posting to the forum about the desyncs. and I looked back at IRC because I was going to ask if anyone had suggestions about how to debug desyncs.
10:36:12 <Ammler> is it possible to make a "nonGPLd" patch for OpenTTD?
10:36:38 <cjk> what you do with your .diff it does not matter
10:36:52 <Tefad> you can make a patch all day long
10:37:03 <Tefad> however if it isn't GPL it will not make it into trunk
10:37:22 <Alberth> and neither can you distribute it afaik
10:37:43 <Tefad> nah i think that's fine
10:37:56 <Tefad> it's just that users need to actively manipulate the source
10:38:00 <cjk> if patch means .diff then, as said, it's not that interesting; if it's an openttd patch (bad wording btw), something else applies
10:38:16 <Tefad> maybe an automated process, but the patch can't be distributed inside trunk code
10:38:55 <Tefad> in other words, it'd be a royal ass-pain to have people use your patch
10:39:37 <Ammler> but you can take all patches published in tt-forums or fs as GPLd?
10:40:38 <Alberth> I am not sure about this. For OpenTTD itself, you can distribute a binary, as long as you provide (a pointer) to the source. I think you can also distribute a patched version, as long as you give the patch in source form away too.
10:41:32 <Ammler> if you publish the source, then that means, its GPLd, doesn't?
10:41:48 <Tefad> you cannot distribute a binary with a patch compiled in that isn't GPL
10:42:08 <Alberth> Ammler: I think you have to ask the authors explicitly, or have them sign a paper that they do. When you read GNU dev docs, they devote a large part of the administration to tracking who wrote/changed what.
10:42:15 <Roest> ammler there's a new version of the dutch tram set
10:42:15 <Tefad> you cannot distribute GPL code with non-gpl patches in-place
10:42:44 <Ammler> Roest: for ottd now, too?
10:43:02 <Tefad> source code or machine/binary executable.
10:43:03 <Roest> i'm using that one, r20 for a while now
10:43:22 <Alberth> Ammler: no, MicroSoft could theoretically publish the source and have a license that forbids to use it unless you pay them
10:43:29 <Roest> you still have r15 listed or is your html file just out of date
10:43:41 <cjk> Hm, what does "minimum cargo moved to station" in table/build_industry.h mean?
10:43:58 <Ammler> oh, well, possible that r20 is already in 7.0
10:44:38 <Roest> in the set i just checked out it is still r15
10:44:51 <Tefad> Ammler: the GPL is written in such a way that it is very difficult to contribute code without your contribution also being GPL code.
10:44:54 <Ammler> Alberth: I asked about OTTD diff
10:45:21 <Alberth> Formally, a patch has a GPL license when the author agrees to that
10:45:22 <Ammler> because there is no patch
10:45:35 <Ammler> which has written something about a license
10:45:52 <Tefad> why are you trying to not use the GPL for your patch?
10:46:20 <Alberth> In America that means lots of trouble
10:46:24 <Ammler> no, I am asking, if I am allowed to use others patches
10:46:53 <Roest> ammler i'm under the impression i can use everything posted on the forums
10:47:07 <Ammler> because wleader has something written about that in the rules for CIV
10:47:08 <trd> As far as I understand it, GPL says that if you use someone elses code, you have to leave a note that you took the code from them.. no?
10:47:17 <Ammler> and I am not sure, if that is really needed
10:47:34 <cjk> it's obvious you have to leave the ©s in though
10:47:41 <Roest> no one has sued me yet for putting their stuff into one pack
10:47:43 <Alberth> The question is whether published code is automatically GPL, I think not
10:48:22 <Ammler> wleader: you should remove that paragraph then
10:51:38 <Tefad> no, if no license is expressed, it is assumed the owner retains full rights to the code
10:52:02 <Tefad> even if the owner is anonymous
10:53:16 <Ammler> Tefad: but if you publish your source on the forums, you would like others to use your patch, else it doesn't make sense...
10:53:42 <Alberth> why? Maybe I just want others to give comment on it
10:54:02 <Ammler> but then you need to write that
10:54:22 <Roest> actually i want others to put comments intomy code, so i dont have to do that
10:54:26 <Ammler> like some does in the readmes for GRFs
10:55:00 <Alberth> If I just publish a patch without comment whatsoever, you have no way of knowing
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10:56:37 <Alberth> To get rid of legal trouble, you need explicit written permission I think. Then you can show the court hard proof. Anything electronic can too easily be modified, so it won't hold in court
10:57:44 <Alberth> not that I'd like a move in that direction though.
10:59:45 <cjk> git detection is broken in config.lib
11:08:28 <Roest> anyone here an expert with wxwidgets?
11:12:23 <Roest> didn't expect a positive answer :)
11:13:45 <Roest> ok here's the problem, uploading a screenshot now to explain it better
11:14:25 <Roest> this is a wxframe with some sashlayoutwindows which hold the glwidgets
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11:14:56 <Roest> my problem here is the propagation of the mouse events
11:18:56 <Roest> well from the glwindows through the sashlayoutwindows to the frame where the eventhandler should be located
11:19:14 <cjk> I am not sure GL windows propagate anything by default
11:19:26 <cjk> I have not worked with GL inside WX though.
11:19:39 <Roest> mouseevents aren't propagated
11:20:03 <cjk> might try #wxwidgets on freenode
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11:33:00 <wleader> I just read the comments I missed, and thinking about it, how can a patch to GPL work not also be GPL, since the patch itself is a derived work?
11:34:22 <Gekz> wleader: because its not derived
11:35:13 <wleader> Gekz, I don't understand how that argument, but I would like to.
11:35:52 <Gekz> I don't understand your sentence, but I would like to.
11:37:05 <wleader> How is a patch not considered a derived work?
11:37:34 <cjk> Because a recipe is just not a derived work?
11:37:54 <wleader> I think authors of cook books might disagree.
11:38:18 <cjk> a patch is basically instructions how to change which lines
11:38:48 <wleader> cjk: so it is not a modified version, just instructions on how to modify.
11:40:37 <cjk> unless the diff is so big you see all the code
11:42:28 <Chrill> Why does my trains, when entering the depot, STAY there? :P
11:42:40 <Chrill> Have I hit some weird setting or is this a new bug in 0.6.1 RC1?
11:43:38 *** Osai is now known as Osai^city
11:45:59 <cjk> you sent them to the depot?
11:46:11 <Chrill> No, they only enter for servicing
11:46:50 <Chrill> Only happens to one train model as well, may I add
11:49:20 <Roest> do you have autoreplace on?
11:50:04 <Roest> and as always with such things, a savegame would be nice
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12:00:45 <Chrill> The AM2 of the UK trainset was replaced with Am10s. The auto-replace didn't wanna do this so I had to myself. Now, the Am10s enter the depot and stay there, as if I ordered them to
12:01:00 <Chrill> Think it's the GRF playing around, nothin else
12:01:55 <Chrill> tryin to send all to depot, then let em all go
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13:09:28 <yorick> @openttd commit g9c620225
13:09:28 <DorpsGek> yorick: Invalid arguments for _commit.
13:45:48 <Belugas> # WHERE IS EVERYBODY??
13:50:18 <Ammler> what error could it be if the server just exit, but no assert or sec fault?
13:51:01 <peter1138> rcon <password> "quit"
13:51:28 <Ammler> how do you mean "user error"?
13:51:32 <glx> or ctrl-c in the wrong screen
13:52:04 <Ammler> if someone does rcon, I would see that on the console
13:53:02 <Ammler> ctrl-c would close the screen and you wouldn't see the output anymore
13:53:36 <peter1138> ctrl-c would dump you to the parent shell
13:57:53 <Ammler> well, we start ottd with autopilot/expect, so ctrl-c would just break that
13:58:28 <glx> maybe autopilot exited by itself then
14:01:14 <Ammler> glx: can you remember why?
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14:56:27 <`Ka> I don't spose anyone with some knowledge would mind taking 5minutes out to help me get my head round the 32bpp stuff and the instalation? thanks
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15:02:14 <peter1138> well, good luck finding a complete 32bpp pack
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15:38:08 * Belugas thinks about adding some logs on music_gui and such
15:38:27 <Belugas> kind of getting tiresome to hear "my music is not playing" blablabla
15:39:26 * DaleStan thinks it failed to put the gm folder in the correct location. Or it thought "gm folder" meant "gm.cat".
15:40:33 <Sacro> why isn't there gm.cat usage?
15:42:10 <peter1138> because we don't have a built-in midi player
15:47:48 <`Ka> just put a few hundred mp3s in winamp before youplay?
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15:49:49 <Belugas> because, strangely, there are people who want the original music
15:50:06 * Belugas agrees with DaleStan, btw
15:55:51 <Belugas> like... not understanding a thing at all
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15:57:39 <`Ka> why should that not be possible
15:58:13 <`Ka> just replace the monorail maglev skins sets with rail vehicle skins, and reskin the monorail and maglev tracks to railways, and there you go
15:58:41 <Belugas> mostly because it's not only skin...
15:59:46 <`Ka> i dont know anything abotu this im not going to pretend i do, interested though
15:59:51 <Belugas> and because the whole engine is really a replacement, and not just an addition. The system can tell if it is replacing the vehicle or just adding a new one based on the original
16:00:02 <peter1138> but there's already a grf to enable the original vehicles
16:00:41 <`Ka> so he has underestimated the system rather than requesting something that isn't yet possible?
16:01:07 <Belugas> not underestimate. not understanding it at all
16:01:41 <Belugas> if the grf creator decided that his engine 1 replaces original engine 1, that's not up to us to make it otherwise
16:02:08 <Belugas> same goes with newhouses, newindustries and all
16:06:42 <Digitalfox> It's harder to play with ECS.. Industries are always complaining of bad service When they have a 67% of service :p
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18:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> damn i am tired...
18:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> <peter1138> no destinations, passenger destinations, all non-freight cargo, and all cargo destinations <- the third category should also contain all town-based cargos [goods, food, whatevernewgrfcargostheycancomeupwith]
18:28:11 <Digitalfox> My head is going to explode.. Too much ECS connecting everything.. *Note to himself next time don't choose so many ECS at the same time.. :p
18:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Ammler> is it possible to make a "nonGPLd" patch for OpenTTD? <- it's very hard to do a patch that does not qualify as a "derived work" [if only for the context lines] or especially "links to", from that point, the GPL states you have to put it under GPL, too, if you distribute it, otherwise you violate the GPL license of openttd
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18:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> where the term "distribute" is a bit problematic... in german law, "distributing" can only be involving physical objects (books, CDs, ...), sending electronically can only be "reproducing" or "copying"
18:42:33 <Ammler> from my sight, every patch of ottd in tt-forums is automatically GPLd
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18:44:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, but a pedantic court might catch on the fact that the license was not explicitly stated
18:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> PS: by german law, "author" can only be a natural person, not a legal entity [like a company]
18:44:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> [or "the ottd team"]
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18:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, i'm just warming up hour old discussions ;)
18:52:55 <yorick> huh? discussions? where?
18:53:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> the "/mode +b yorick" ones
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19:42:58 <Wolf01> uh... "good" local authority rating and I can blow up houses but roads are untouchable
19:51:23 <Belugas> Wolf01, can you trace back which rev you could?
19:52:27 <Wolf01> r12919, I'm waiting for other bugfixing before update the nightly
19:52:59 <peter1138> well that's already fixed
19:53:44 <peter1138> @openttd commit 12920
19:53:44 <DorpsGek> peter1138: Commit by smatz :: r12920 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2008-04-29 18:08:14 UTC)
19:53:45 <DorpsGek> peter1138: -Fix (r12859): town rating was affected even after the test run
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19:55:02 <Wolf01> eh, a description of what noticeable bugs which a commit fixes...
19:58:22 <Wolf01> "fix: cannot remove town roads because test run affected town rating"
20:00:50 <Wolf01> I can wait a bugfix for the eternity until somebody tell me that the bug is already fixed, because I usually read about bugs fixed, not how the code (doesn't) work
20:01:12 <peter1138> if you're in the mood for waiting for bug fixes, you shouldn't be using trunk
20:02:40 <Belugas> Wolf01, the commit message is fine as it is. It describe exactly the problem. You want to have the effect reflected
20:03:18 <Belugas> plus, do you know how difficult it is to write a decent commit meesage? sometimes, it takes longer than the patch itself :P
20:04:21 <Prof_Frink> r1842: Fixed stuff.
20:04:44 <Prof_Frink> r7294: Added features.
20:05:44 <Belugas> so easy to critisize...
20:06:19 <peter1138> r5123: Fix that bug Wolf01 is having but didn't tell anyone
20:11:23 <Tefad> how often do you guys tell people certain behaviors aren't bugs at all but are in fact features?
20:12:35 <Belugas> VERY oftenly thank you
20:13:08 <Belugas> and often, is it escalading into words fighting
20:20:01 <Prof_Frink> peter1138: No, that's nobody forking cares
20:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> real men don't fork, they spoon :p
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20:25:04 <Pinchiukas> is there a setting that allows me to see the price of doing anything before actually doing it?
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21:46:56 <welshdragon> is there a port of openttd for the psp?
21:50:13 <Digitalfox> what exactly does this mean that george said about ECS paremeters?
21:50:15 <Digitalfox> bit 0=1 + bit 1=1 + bit 2=1 = 7
21:50:37 <Digitalfox> So switch 1 1 1 isn't right?
21:55:22 <glx> the "difficulty" parameter?
21:55:48 <Belugas> not at all, Digitalfox
21:56:08 <Digitalfox> So what is the right order or numbers? :\
21:56:11 <Belugas> bit 0 = 1 , so value = 1
21:56:20 <Belugas> bit 1 = 1, so value = 2
21:56:30 <Belugas> bit 2 = 1, so value = 4
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21:56:46 <Digitalfox> Oh so 1 2 4 is the right switch :)
21:56:46 <Belugas> bit 0,1,2 = 1 each, so value = 7
21:57:08 <glx> difficulty param is the latest param (you need to put all others param even with default values before it)
21:57:11 <Belugas> beacuse it is 1 + 2 + 4
21:58:18 <Digitalfox> No I just don't get why I didn't understood this in the sec I read it.. .(
21:58:42 <Digitalfox> Thank you Belugas + Glx :)
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22:00:28 <Belugas> maybe because you do not play around with bits and bytes everyday, Digitalfox
22:01:23 <Belugas> fucking debuig session
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22:52:26 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12933 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: minor errors related to industries accepted/produced cargo
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continue to next day ⏵
