IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-04-25
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00:22:53 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12885 /branches/noai/ (18 files in 6 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AISubsidy and AIEventSubsidyNNN (Yexo)
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01:39:45 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12886 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/aircraft.h: [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Added test for IsInFlight to detect if an aircraft is flying between airports, or is in the main body of the FSM.
01:42:44 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12887 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (newgrf_fsmports.cpp newgrf_fsmports.h station_cmd.cpp):
01:42:44 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: When upgrading an airport, remove the existing FSM first.
01:42:44 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Add: Added function to RemoveFSMSpecFromStationList when the index is unknown.
01:44:23 <Gekz> does CIA-3 have to be in here?
01:44:32 <Gekz> there _is_ #OpenTTD.notice
01:45:47 <glx> CIA needs to be here, else our stats won't be updated
01:48:54 <Belugas> plus, those poor users who do not know how to use svn log are relying on it to see news of commits ;)
01:56:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12888 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (8 files in 4 dirs): (log message trimmed)
01:56:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Rewrite of aircraft movement to correct shallow descents, which werent working correctly. Use of target_altitude variable for added clarity.
01:56:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Change: Helicopter speed in holding pattern specified.
01:56:33 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Change: Helicopter landing limited to a minimum of 65kmh
01:56:34 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Change: Helicopters only change height vertically when landing/taking off.
01:56:34 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Change: Helicopters fly 5 below same speed aircraft.
01:56:36 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Change: Helicopter descent position marked by Bit9=1 in amd->flags.
02:02:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can always /ignore CIA-*
02:04:43 <Belugas> but waht a shame it is, then...
02:12:53 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12889 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/newgrf_fsmports.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Optimise before commit ;)
02:13:09 <glx> usually it's compile before commit
02:15:52 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: richk * r12890 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/newgrf_fsmports.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Change: Add comment to new function, and correct comment in old.
02:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> hence the smilie, i assume ;)
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02:57:10 * mynetdude takes a beating stick and beats town authorities in the head... GET smarter! :)
03:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> provide a patch ;)
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03:21:16 <mynetdude> Eddi|zuHause3 a patch for what?
03:21:36 <mynetdude> if you were saying I should write a patch to beat up town authority... lolz not happening I don't write code
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06:15:35 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12891 /branches/0.6/src/ (aircraft_cmd.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp ship_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): [0.6] -Fix (r12868): breakdowns were broken and would cause vehicles to go slower than they should have been moving.
06:16:10 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12892 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Fix: too many items in the vehicle toolbars were greyed out.
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06:54:06 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12893 /branches/0.6/src/lang/ (20 files in 2 dirs):
06:54:06 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk (r12543, r12861):
06:54:06 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Language updates (r12543, r12861)
07:07:09 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12894 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_subsidy.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix (r12885): Obiwan with months; months go from 1..12, so doing modulo 12 on that causes December to be invalid.
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07:43:51 <Celestar> I guy just called me, trying to sell us [the department] a 16000-buck hardware firewall.
07:43:56 * planetmaker wishes an especially good morning to Celestar...
07:44:12 <Noldo> Celestar: I take it you didn't buy it
07:44:14 <Celestar> because we're endangered since "Your computers broadcast IP addresses and our firewall prevents that"
07:44:40 <planetmaker> What the crap is that^^ ?
07:44:52 * Celestar wonders whether it is a prudent thing to purchase a firewall from someone who apparently knows less about IP network than a rhinozerus knows about tap-dancing
07:45:21 <Noldo> salesmen are often a bit lost
07:45:22 <ln> maybe the router didn't support the IP protocol but something like NetBIOS only.
07:46:08 * Celestar tries to imagine a world where every DHCP packet would be forwarded to every single machine on the damn planet
07:47:38 <peter1138> mmm, mac address collisions
07:47:45 <Celestar> more like dddddddddddos attack
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08:13:58 <Rubidium> a firewall that explicitly prevents the use of DHCP... how useful
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08:19:37 <HMage> 2e3000 people die in a f-f-f-f-fireball
08:21:03 <Celestar> Rubidium: maybe it prevents broadcast packets to be routed :P
08:21:34 <Rubidium> Celestar: not if that quote it correct
08:22:42 <HMage> NAT is not? not is NAT?
08:23:18 * HMage sends SYN packets to everyone
08:28:01 <Gekz> The SYN packets hurt my testes
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10:21:49 <Celestar> why are people always complaining that I make too complicated sentenses in English? It's not even my native language ...
10:22:21 <Rubidium> Celestar: known problem ;)
10:22:24 <Celestar> my colleagues for example
10:22:40 <Celestar> just because they don't understand the damn language properly in the first place :P
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11:17:30 <Roest> is anyone getting a compiler warning in dbg_helpers or is that just a linux/gcc thing?
11:25:17 <Gekz> its another strike against the machine
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11:37:48 <Roest> uff savegame is at 94 now?
11:38:34 <Roest> dont mind me asking the obvious
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13:11:49 <Ammler> Roest: is your patchpack "MP save"?
13:12:13 <Ammler> ah, yes, safe of course
13:13:04 <Ammler> community integrated version
13:15:46 <planetmaker> Ammler: what's going wrong with it? Didn't it work yesterday...?
13:15:59 <Roest> i'm not 100% sure, the version without paxdet 'should' be
13:16:40 <Roest> what's breaking it in the CIV?
13:17:26 <Ammler> track sharing or daylength maybe?
13:17:55 <Roest> peter1138: can you have a look at #1952, rubidium said that's your field of expertise
13:18:08 <Ammler> truelights patch was safe, but they made something else
13:19:04 <Roest> Ammler: i'm not happy with the current daylength patch either
13:19:28 <Ammler> why don't you want that?
13:20:11 <Roest> Ammler: i'm doing a r12892 version of my pack right now, want me to leave daylength out?
13:20:38 <Ammler> Roest: no, it was just a question
13:20:54 <Ammler> if you say your pack is safe, so I know, its an other patch
13:21:17 <Roest> since i'm not the author of these patches i can say for sure
13:21:36 <Ammler> never played MP with it?
13:22:11 <Roest> i had a dedicated server running with the first two
13:22:37 <Gekz> i ran with daylength on a dedicated server
13:23:18 <peter1138> Roest: i prefer that version of the patch to the other one i saw
13:23:39 <Roest> peter1138: i had some counseling from belugas
13:23:41 <Gekz> i should have whois'd you
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13:24:09 <Gekz> Du sprechen Deutsch oder Französisch?
13:24:11 <peter1138> Roest: i dislike it though :)
13:24:34 <Ammler> I have them about monthly
13:24:52 <Gekz> I meant they started after 2 decades
13:24:57 <Gekz> they were constant after that
13:27:52 <peter1138> Roest: because it sends a command for every scheme, which is bad
13:28:01 <peter1138> so i'm doing it server side ;)
13:34:02 <Gekz> peter1138: what, the daylength patch, serverside?
13:34:09 <Gekz> Like i suggested last week and was told pfft
13:35:18 <blindcoder> Hi all. I don't suppose there's an easy way to convert from electric to monorail trains like it is from steam/diesel to electric?
13:35:41 <Yorick> someone was making a patch doing that
13:36:06 <blindcoder> okay thanks, just thought I was too stupid to use the update trains screen
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13:36:54 <Yorick> what update trains screen?!
13:37:08 <Yorick> autoreplace can't covert cross-railtype
13:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes it can, from standard rail to electrified rail
13:37:39 <Yorick> electric & normal = same rail type
13:37:46 <Yorick> at least its compatible enough
13:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, that is just a one-line-change to enable all railtypes
13:38:30 <Yorick> you can autoreplace, but good luck getting an electrical train into a monorail depot
13:38:46 <Yorick> or getting a monorail train out of an electric depot
13:39:53 <Eddi|zuHause> upgrading a depot with trains inside is aonother one-line-change
13:39:58 <blindcoder> Yorick: what about converting the electric to a monorail depot?
13:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and then you click the "upgrade all trains here" button
13:40:49 <Yorick> go making it, but then I don't understand why it took so long for ...
13:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it does not take long, it is a design decision to not allow it
13:41:17 <blindcoder> yeah, that's the way I'd do it. It sure beats building a new train, giving it the same orders/a shared order with the old one and doing that for 50+ trains :)
13:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> 50? you have a small network :p
13:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, using a newgrf railset mostly eliminates this "upgrade" step anyway
13:42:30 * blindcoder whistles innocently
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13:53:57 <Roest> Ammler: i put a new version of the patchpack up, can you test it if it's multiplayer safe?
13:54:22 <Roest> i also have a version without daylength
13:55:37 <Roest> good thing i dont see you yorick
14:06:58 <Roest> ah shit guess this wasn't a clean checkout, gimme another minute :)
14:15:27 <Roest> peter1138: is it supposed to do something at ctrl-click?
14:16:15 <Roest> if so, it's not working
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14:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> is the 16th most common element
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14:42:33 <Roujin> i understood eddipedia, but now i'm asking eddipedia about the user rubidium..
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14:43:13 <Roujin> i found a bug that road tiles with road construction cannot be flooded by water
14:43:49 <Roujin> made a quick check in code and now it can be flooded, but the effectvehicle (the bulldozer) will stay
14:44:22 <Roujin> no hylje, normal road that has a road construction going on (you know, the stuff you can fund in the town authority window..)
14:46:49 <Roujin> digging a bit in the newly by rubidium arranged effectvehicle.*, it seems there's no way to prematurely kill (or even get access to) an effectvehicle
14:48:18 <Roujin> they are just created, a pointer is returned, but at least in case of the road construction bulldozer, it's thrown away.
14:48:36 <Roujin> and the effectvehicle just deletes itself once its animation cycle has ended.
14:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> can't you find vehicles by tile?
14:50:23 <Roujin> ...i wonder if the roads with road construction cannot be flooded by design - since the bulldozer on water looks even weirder than the non flooded tile
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14:51:27 <dragonhorseboy> peter1138 figured out any progress on your ukrs+ukrsi server and class 91's or no new news yet?
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14:55:03 <Roest> blah you can only attach 3 files to a post :/
14:55:13 <Yorick> it's strange: dt-stop with normal road under it: normal dt stop, dt-stop with tram rails under it: tram stop! dt-stop with both: tram stop and road stop!
14:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> make two posts :p
14:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Yorick: what is strange about this?
14:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it is very common that trams and busses stop at the same place
14:58:20 <Yorick> hmm...in amsterdam, they're definatly called different
15:01:20 <Roest> too many drug addicts in amsterdam
15:05:31 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: glx * r12895 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt icelandic.txt): -Fix: restored Icelandic plural form and removed cases from Brazilian Portuguese (again)
15:05:54 <Yorick> restore it in webtranslator
15:06:04 <Yorick> everytime it gets updated, the bug appears again
15:06:16 <peter1138> webtranslator is supposed to treat svn as canon
15:07:26 <glx> and I noticed the icelandic error recently (it's from r12543)
15:07:50 <DorpsGek> Yorick: Commit by miham :: r12543 /trunk/src/lang (14 files) (2008-04-03 07:20:32 UTC)
15:07:51 <DorpsGek> Yorick: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-04-03 08:42:55
15:07:52 <DorpsGek> Yorick: brazilian_portuguese - 18 fixed by fukumori (18)
15:07:54 <DorpsGek> Yorick: bulgarian - 17 fixed by thetitan (17)
15:07:55 <DorpsGek> Yorick: catalan - 11 fixed by arnaullv (11)
15:07:57 <DorpsGek> Yorick: dutch - 19 fixed by habell (19)
15:07:58 <DorpsGek> Yorick: french - 11 fixed by glx (11)
15:07:59 <DorpsGek> Yorick: hungarian - 5 fixed by miham (5)
15:08:00 <DorpsGek> Yorick: icelandic - 24 fixed, 2 changed by scrooge (26)
15:08:01 <DorpsGek> Yorick: italian - 11 fixed, 1 changed by lorenzodv (12)
15:08:02 <DorpsGek> Yorick: korean - 17 fixed, 3 changed by leejaeuk5 (20)
15:08:03 <DorpsGek> Yorick: slovak - 18 fixed by lengyel (18)
15:08:04 <DorpsGek> Yorick: slovenian - 19 fixed by Necrolyte (19)
15:08:05 <DorpsGek> Yorick: swedish - 33 fixed by daishan (33)
15:08:06 <DorpsGek> Yorick: turkish - 18 fixed by jnmbk (18)
15:08:07 <DorpsGek> Yorick: ukrainian - 17 fixed by mad (17)
15:08:13 <dragonhorseboy> *smacks a spammer*
15:08:24 <Roujin> don't get DorpsGek kicked for spamming, yorick :P
15:08:47 <dragonhorseboy> so peter did you see my question to you a while ago? ;)
15:08:59 <Yorick> seen * also makes a nice one
15:09:02 <dragonhorseboy> ok just checking ^-^
15:09:10 <peter1138> i already said the other day
15:09:16 <Yorick> if you're pressing @more 50 times again
15:09:20 <dragonhorseboy> and what about -today-? ;)
15:09:45 <peter1138> it'll be sorted in the next release
15:10:17 <dragonhorseboy> so the game is basically frozen for now till 0.6.0 is updated?
15:11:10 <Roest> that's the answer we got when asking if yapp goes in anytime soom
15:11:19 <Belugas> 0.6 is on a branch of its own now
15:11:29 <Belugas> it does not need to have trunk frozen
15:11:31 <Roest> belugas can we get diagonal roads please
15:11:53 <Belugas> where is tat kick function again???
15:12:02 <peter1138> dragonhorseboy: well i can unpause it but it'll desync
15:12:08 <peter1138> maybe start a new game again
15:12:38 <Belugas> Roest, that SirXavius can just blabla and die
15:12:59 <dragonhorseboy> peter...ah ok...well at least it was a nice game while it lasted
15:13:08 <Yorick> should be possible to clone/share orders with list entries
15:13:21 <dragonhorseboy> peter..hopefully the next one would be a bit more fun with having to start with only steam or early electrics rather than having almost all modern engines present ;)
15:13:58 <peter1138> errr... it started in 1921...
15:14:26 <Roest> belugas that's like the guy that keeps asking if i can add engine pool to the patchpack, everytime he sees a new file in peters dir
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15:15:53 <dragonhorseboy> peter..well I mean..I came in like in a bit after 2000
15:15:58 <dragonhorseboy> thats what I mean ^-^
15:21:09 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12896 /branches/noai/ (75 files in 9 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r12824:r12895.
15:22:44 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12897 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: some coding style in station_cmd.cpp.
15:25:42 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12898 /trunk/src/unmovable_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: coding style in unmovable_cmd.cpp.
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15:29:56 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12899 /branches/noai/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs):
15:29:56 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: added AIEventCompany(New|Merger|InTrouble|Bankrupt) (Yexo)
15:29:56 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Fix: don't export constructor for AIEventTypes, as you shouldn't do it via SQ
15:34:16 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12900 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_event_types.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix r12899: a cosmic ray hit my HD and removed a ';'.. now that sucks!
15:51:24 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12901 /branches/noai/ (11 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Add: added AITown.IsWithinTownRadius, AIStation.IsWithinTownRadius and AITile.GetOwner (Yexo)
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15:57:10 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12902 /branches/noai/ (8 files in 2 dirs): [NoAI] -Fix r12901 [API CHANGE]: renamed IsWithinTownRadius to IsWithinTownInfluence, as that reflects the meaning much better
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16:05:25 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12903 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_event_types.hpp: [NoAI] -Fix r12899: wrong doxygen param-name comment
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16:34:03 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12904 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt openttd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#1953]: remove trams from savegames saved in OTTD without tram support, it is better than to simply crash
16:34:21 * Belugas just noticed Roujin's forum signature :) funny
16:40:17 <Roujin> yeah when i read those two lines, it made my day :D
16:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> he always leaves these cryptic messages, nobody ever figured out what they mean
16:45:57 <SmatZ> doesn't he always say the same?
16:46:21 <NukeBuster> perhaps it's an SOS?
16:51:30 <Rubidium> it's more a request to get kicked
16:59:54 <Roujin> I have spotted something wasting cpu..
17:00:13 <Celestar> it's called ntoskrnl.exe
17:00:46 <Roujin> tiles with x=255 and/or y=255 are being flooded every tileloop
17:01:33 <Roujin> or, more generally the fake tile row at the lower end of the map
17:01:47 <Celestar> the shadow cells ...
17:02:09 <Roujin> yeah, if that's the correct name for them..
17:03:00 <Roujin> i guess it's because the tiletype is checked to be not MP_WATER
17:04:15 <Roujin> i'll add a check for MP_VOID
17:06:10 * Rubidium wonders how you can determine whether it's wasting CPU when you haven't profiled with and without that extra check
17:08:02 <Roujin> well, i can tell it's wasting CPU
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17:08:28 <Roujin> i cannot tell if it's wasting a significant amount, that is...
17:09:30 <Roujin> i can tell it's not of any sense to call DoFloodTile on those tiles
17:10:00 <Roujin> i can tell that it's not of any sense to check for vehicles being on those tiles to see if they are going to be destroyed by the flood...
17:10:11 <Rubidium> and the overhead of doing the branch 2047x2047 times extra?
17:12:30 <Rubidium> I've seen more 'obvious optimisations' that have backfired pretty hard
17:13:02 <Roujin> there's already a check for MP_WATER..
17:13:14 <Rubidium> and the other check is then immediatelly free?
17:13:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:14:26 <Roujin> ok, you've got a point there. I shouldn't assume without any testing that including a check there would make things better.
17:17:39 <Roujin> it seems that for water tiles it was better to check for them. the comment says /* do not try to flood water tiles - increases performance a lot */
17:18:04 <yorick> yeah...from 60% to 30%
17:18:52 <Roujin> well on an empty map, that changes flooding of all tiles every tileloop to none.
17:19:41 *** yorick is now known as FalseBrain
17:19:52 <hylje> 7nick FileNotFoundBrain
17:20:37 *** FalseBrain is now known as Yorick
17:22:35 <Roujin> evidently, x+y DoFloodTile() saved per TileLoop cycle is nowhere as much as x*y. But the overhead by the if-clause is only created for tiles that actually should be flooded.
17:23:47 <Belugas> heheh too bad i do not have the possibility to "freeze" a nick :)
17:24:00 <Roujin> how many tiles are there actually to be flooded in an average game? i dare to say less than x+y (the void border)
17:24:07 <Belugas> blocks a user to change his nick
17:24:20 <Fingon> there's a channel function so you can't change your nick while you are in that channel
17:24:22 <Yorick> mode +m does the trick
17:24:44 <Fingon> i don't think it's +m :p
17:24:50 <Yorick> you on #openttd.notice?
17:24:56 <Yorick> then you can't change nick
17:25:06 <Yorick> [19:25] #openttd.notice You may not change nickname while banned or moderated on a channel (+b/+q/+m)
17:25:29 * Yorick hopes he didn't bring good ideas with that +b/+q
17:26:46 <Belugas> no, but your FalseBrain would have been cool if it was kept as such for ever ^_^
17:27:11 <Yorick> you could register and link it
17:27:40 *** Yorick is now known as questionmark
17:27:58 *** questionmark is now known as Yorick
17:29:30 <dih> hey oh so lovely openttd devs
17:29:40 <dih> would you be very very kind to #openttdcoop?
17:30:04 <dih> we were wondering if you would let us use your maillist :-)
17:30:09 <Roujin> hmm, docks are also constantly flooded every TileLoop
17:30:21 <dih> perhaps @coop.openttd.org
17:30:35 <dih> or if it's possible we can use our own domain
17:33:10 <Eddi|zuHause> <Roujin> how many tiles are there actually to be flooded in an average game? <- about 90% of the map as soon as someone vandalises it
17:33:45 <Roujin> no, only the border of the area
17:34:10 <Roujin> and only for as long as everything is flooded
17:34:56 <Roujin> during this time, there actually is an amount of tiles that should actually be flooded, starting from max 2*(x+y) and constantly decreasing
17:35:29 <Roujin> whereas the void tiles exist ALWAYS, during all games they are constantly being flooded
17:36:44 <Roujin> i think the overhead of one if-clause for the validly flooded tiles is small enough if that if-clause prevents a heap of functions to be called for the (x+y) void tiles
17:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> don't "think", proove
17:38:33 <Roujin> i don't know how to profile something like this
17:38:34 <Belugas> Roujin, it might be interesting to have some profiling here
17:38:40 <Roujin> i can only do the maths..
17:39:57 <Fingon> run a game at speedup for say 120 seconds (no ai), check what date you are at. Then apply your patch, and run again and check again
17:40:04 <Roujin> no seriously.. i've never done something like this before. I have a windows machine which i assume is not exactly the optimum for programming stuff (i use msys and mingw to have access to stuff like make)
17:40:10 <Fingon> if date is higher, patch makes it better
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17:40:41 <Roujin> wasn't there a command line option i read shortly ago that makes a two week benchmark or something?
17:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "Der Stürmer Mladen Petric der Borrussia Dortmund wurde observiert, nachdem am Telefon die verdächtige Phrase "Bin Mladen" gefallen war." <- that is so evil :p
17:41:10 <Yexo> you can try make run-prof
17:41:28 <Yexo> don't know if/how it works though, as I can't run openttd from cygwin
17:43:08 <Roujin> okay, i found it again: these were the instructions given to a user to compare to different versions.. time ./openttd -c path_to_config -v null:ticks=1000 -m null -s null -g path_to_savegame
17:43:44 <Roujin> that was for osx though
17:44:29 <Belugas> you should ask Rubidium or SmatZ, they do both some profiling
17:44:58 * Belugas thinks there might be a need for a wiki entry on profiling...
17:47:32 <Roujin> ooh, i think i can work with these instructions...
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17:49:16 <Roujin> and it saves about 10% even!
17:49:19 <mynetdude> if I have newgrfs installed and a friend and I want to play multiplayer, can he still play without installing the newgrfs?
17:49:40 <Yexo> mynetdude: he'll need to have the exact same grf's
17:50:03 <mynetdude> ah so it won't even let him connect without it :(
17:50:17 <mynetdude> guess I'll just remove them so he can play
17:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> errr... "real" is irrelevant
17:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "user" is the relevant number
17:51:07 <Roujin> ok, 10% is misleading because it was a pretty much empty savegame where nothing is happening
17:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "real" is affected by other processes running on your computer
17:51:44 <Roujin> so, in a game stuffed with trains and stuff it will of course not save 10%
17:51:59 <Yorick> is that time util also there for windows?
17:52:27 <Yexo> Yorick: it is available under cygwin
17:53:35 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 26 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Bjarni> the thing is the guy is a lawyer and knows that he due to his history can't be an independent witness yet he didn't inform of this
17:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Roujin: did you listen to anything i said?
17:55:14 <Roujin> i just now read it... sorry...
17:55:41 <Roujin> well then i have to increase the number of ticks before i can get numbers big enough to notice any change i guess
17:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that is a trivial adjustment, really ;)
17:56:59 <Roujin> can you tell me more about the three values there and why user is the important one
17:57:39 <Yexo> real is the time spend as you could have measured with a stopwatch
17:57:45 <Yexo> sys is the time spend in the os
17:58:02 <Yexo> and user is the time the cpu spend running your program
17:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> if real >> user+sys, it it means you have lots of stuff running in parallel
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18:00:14 <Roujin> i see. well i said before i have no clue about profiling :> thanks for helping me and not laughing at me for being a n00b btw
18:00:49 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: not perse, as time the program spends waiting for io is also in real iirc
18:00:54 <Belugas> Roujin, someone who tries and makes efforts is not one to laugh at
18:01:07 <Roujin> now why is it that user time is still the same when putting 100.000 instead of 1000 ticks in the benchmark?
18:01:32 <Yexo> does openttd run fast forward?
18:01:47 <SmatZ> Roujin: is the game paused?
18:01:57 <SmatZ> and the numbe rhas no effect for 0.5
18:02:24 <Roujin> eh? its a command line option.. no real game is run, it's just a benchmark in the background
18:02:29 <Eddi|zuHause> seems to have no effect in fairly recent trunk either
18:02:55 <Roujin> and i'm running trunk of.. yesterday for that matter
18:03:00 <SmatZ> Roujin: when the game is paused, it won't benchmark anything
18:03:12 <SmatZ> it will run 1000 "ticks" of nothing
18:03:22 <Roujin> smatz: ah i understand, you mean the savegame
18:03:46 <Roujin> no, it's not in paused mode
18:03:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, paused, that might be a reason
18:04:09 <Roujin> it's a freshly generated map though, without anything running
18:06:11 *** sickie88 is now known as SickieAway
18:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the CPU usage of ECS is insane
18:06:57 <Belugas> always been, and should remain the same, Eddi|zuHause
18:07:17 <Belugas> unless george finds less cpu intensive tests
18:07:27 <Yorick> wouldn't some xml-based savegame format suit better?
18:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> xml is the worst format for data storage ever...
18:08:03 <Roujin> i added some random vehicles now and tested again for 1000, 10000 and 100000 ticks
18:08:20 <Lakie> Its quite wasteful size wise.
18:08:20 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: I disagree.
18:08:30 <Lakie> However its easily phrased.
18:08:33 <Prof_Frink> .bmp images of punched cards
18:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> let me rephrase that
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18:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> xml is the worst format for data storage ever being publicly hyped
18:09:21 <Belugas> indeed... only a hype
18:09:36 <Roujin> 1000 ticks gives real: 1.266 secs, user: 0.015 secs -- 10000 gives real: 3.860 secs, user: 0.030 secs -- 100000 gives real: 33.266 secs, user: 0.015 secs
18:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> these numbers look totally weird
18:10:20 <Belugas> good for computer to computer data exchange, even more cross platform. but as data definition? yurk
18:10:39 <Yexo> Roujin: when running under windows, the timer is not that precise, so 0.015 and 0.030 can both be approx 0.22 or something
18:10:43 <Yorick> the current binary format isn't too well either
18:10:54 <Roujin> am i doing something wrong, or does mingw something wrong or where's the fault :/
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18:11:06 <Belugas> it is perfect for our use, Yorick
18:11:11 <Yexo> try running it again with a 2048x2048 map
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18:11:23 <Yorick> unless you'd want to edit a savegame
18:11:23 <Roujin> but i mean, if real increases that much, shouldn't user also increase? oO
18:11:27 <Eddi|zuHause> probably it can't get these numbers properly in windows
18:11:43 <Yexo> Roujin: not if the game is not running in fast forward
18:11:46 <Belugas> [14:10] <Yorick> unless you'd want to edit a savegame <-- muwhahahaha!!!!
18:12:20 <Belugas> "please, mister dev, can you fix my savegame? I've fooled around and now it does not work anymore"
18:12:33 * Yorick unstucks belugas again
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18:14:00 * Yorick tries to unstuck belugas again
18:14:34 *** Yorick was kicked by Belugas (A kick works better than a hammer!)
18:15:06 * Yorick takes the kick from belugas and tries to unstuck him with it
18:15:13 * Yorick kicks belugas, *ah finally*
18:16:25 <Roujin> Yexo: well, I *assume* it runs in fast forward because it's a benchmark?
18:16:57 <Yexo> if it runs for 33 seconds, you can check taskmgr during that time
18:17:23 <Yexo> I also assumed it would do that, but better check then assume
18:17:35 <dih> yorick: you know it's kinda funny - all who are ops in #openttd #openttd.noai (other unmentioned chennels you have been), #openttdcoop #openttdfairplay have at least kicked you once
18:18:08 <Yorick> not all ops in #openttdcoop
18:18:37 <Yorick> -wait: why are you counting that?-
18:19:06 <Roujin> well i come to the conclusion that for some matter this profiling tool is broken and does not display the right value for user for me
18:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> your operating system is broken
18:20:19 <dih> Yorick: put it this way, the only channel you have never been kicked from is the one you and your bot cuddle in
18:20:29 <Patrick`_> it's called a circlejerk?
18:20:57 <Belugas> false, dih. He nver was kicked from #openttd.notice
18:21:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Roujin: alternative approach, make sure nothing else is running, and take a series of statistics of the "real" times
18:22:09 <Belugas> Roujin, it's that or there may be more magic to cast before using it. Unfortunately, profiling is not my stuff, to be honest
18:22:09 <Roujin> eddi: i'm pretty sure i can't archieve this
18:22:39 <Roujin> there is always some system stuff running
18:23:02 <Roujin> which i shouldn't just kill
18:24:03 <dih> Belugas: is that channel moderated?
18:24:35 <Belugas> and no one but Trurbrain and his bot can speak on it!
18:25:12 <Roujin> now what i could do is add the one line patch to flyspray and ask that someone who is able to do it please profile it
18:25:56 <Roujin> actually it's just a side effect from the bug i actually wanted to fix, and now i'm stuck on this ><
18:26:01 <dih> Belugas: it is moderated (has the +m flag)
18:26:09 <dih> that means only op and voice can talk!
18:26:40 <Roujin> i actually added a debug message every time the function for checking if a vehicle would be flooded is called
18:26:55 <Roujin> and then i wondered why it already pops a heap of messages every tileloop in the main menu
18:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> text output kills any kind of information in performance measurement
18:27:57 <Roujin> resulting in my find that every tileloop the void tiles at the lower end are flooded
18:28:28 * Belugas kinda remember some TICK TOCK stuff in regards of profiling or such
18:28:28 <Roujin> eddi: i know, for profiling i reverted my changes first and only added the if-check
18:30:42 <Yorick> any opinions about fs 1940?
18:30:52 <Rubidium> Roujin, about profiling: you need to do several runs (at least 5) to get something statistically comparable
18:31:31 <Yexo> Yorick: difficult one, since it might be possible that an oil rig is also serviced by a train station
18:32:01 <Roujin> Rubidium: someone told me that the "real" value is not important but the "user" value
18:32:24 <Roujin> but the "user" value is always 0.015 or something, really low for me :/
18:32:52 <Roujin> no matter btw if I let the benchmark run 1000, 10000 or 100000 ticks, it's the same.
18:33:35 <Rubidium> which would mean that user isn't what you need to be looking at
18:33:38 <SmatZ> maybe it has problems loading the game or it is paused or so
18:33:55 <Yorick> if you would allow things to be transfered to the station, everyone could go & use the oil
18:34:00 <Rubidium> still... the binary must be doing something
18:34:06 <Rubidium> and 1000 ticks doing nothing
18:34:23 <Rubidium> either takes no time at all, or 30000 ms, (30 seconds)
18:34:25 <SmatZ> if the game is paused, it does nothing 1000 times :)
18:34:42 <Roujin> SmatZ: i checked, the savegame was not paused..
18:34:59 <Yexo> Roujin: did you check cpu usage during your test?
18:35:34 <Yexo> few % cpu usage and approx 30sec run time would indicate real is also not the time you need to look at
18:36:47 <Roujin> Rubidium: would you kill me if I post that patch on flyspray (it's a one-liner) and ask you to profile it? I can't get it right it seems x_x
18:37:13 <Rubidium> ./configure --enable-profiling
18:38:02 <Rubidium> maybe even make run-prof OPENTTD_ARGS="-g <savegame> -v null -s null -m null"
18:40:29 <Roujin> what should I start it with once it's done compiling?
18:40:40 <Yexo> make run-prof starts it for you
18:40:41 <Rubidium> make run-prof OPENTTD_ARGS="-g <savegame> -v null -s null -m null"
18:42:08 <Roujin> and after it's done, should i run it again some more times, to get more data?
18:42:32 <Rubidium> yup, that's the best way to do it
18:42:45 <Rubidium> but it'll will create a lot of data
18:44:47 <Roujin> whoops, it couldn't load the save game.. maybe due to some newgrfs that were in it. i'll try again with the 2048^2 i created without newgrfs
18:45:17 <Patrick`_> benchmark without grfs, they might be shoddily-written
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18:49:49 <Roujin> do i have to write the savegame in ' ' or something?
18:50:03 <Rubidium> if there are no spaces in the path
18:50:09 <Rubidium> then you don't need it
18:50:17 <Rubidium> however, it needs to be relative to the bin/ directory
18:50:58 <Roujin> that seems to have done the trick
18:52:16 <Roujin> can i dump the output to a file somehow?
18:52:55 <Yorick> time ./openttd.exe <ARGUMENTS> > profilelog
18:53:16 <Rubidium> Yorick: time doesn't profile!
18:54:33 <Roujin> i used the line you gave me before, rubidium, followed by > dump.txt
18:54:57 <Roujin> it really does output a whole lot of data O_O
18:56:07 <Roujin> so, i'll do this again 4 more times, and then 5 times with the clean build? (i currently have the change done on the source)
18:56:38 <Yorick> you mean make run-prof OPENTTD_ARGS="-g <savegame> -v null -s null -m null > dump.txt ?
18:57:01 <Rubidium> Yorick: yes, but with the required closure of the string
18:59:01 <Roujin> Rubidium: that sure outputs a lot of data, it's too massive for me to see the relevant part oO
18:59:57 * Rubidium recommends "Reading gprof output for dummies"
19:00:35 <Rubidium> ‘‘gprof: A Call Graph Execution Profiler’’, by Graham, S.L., Kessler, P.B., McKusick, M.K.; Proceedings of the SIGPLAN ’82 Symposium on Compiler Construction, SIGPLAN Notices, Vol. 17, No. 6, pp. 120-126, June 1982.
19:03:11 <Rubidium> dih: you missed a part
19:03:16 <Rubidium> ‘‘gprof: A Call Graph Execution Profiler’’, by Graham, S.L., Kessler, P.B., McKusick, M.K.; Proceedings of the SIGPLAN ’82 Symposium on Compiler Construction, SIGPLAN Notices, Vol. 17, No. 6, pp. 120-126, June 1982.
19:03:36 <Rubidium> or... is my irc client acting up again?
19:04:02 <Yorick> gmon.out: No such file or directory <-- only thing I get
19:04:03 <Yexo> you're repeating yourself now
19:04:39 <dih> the only thing i remember where i highlighted you was about the maillist...
19:05:10 <Rubidium> dih: you always miss stuff ;)
19:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause> like an "edral" in the nick :p
19:05:33 <Rubidium> Yorick: you didn't compile with profiling enabled
19:07:16 *** pm|away is now known as planetmaker
19:08:32 <Roujin> hmm. seems the differences between each run are quite big
19:09:03 <Roujin> do i have to run it 100 times and compute the average to have numbers i can actually work with?
19:09:25 <Roujin> I'm afraid 5 times doesn't really make a cut..
19:10:08 <glx> Roujin: if you want a good test use pile transport final from openttdcoop
19:10:57 <Rubidium> Roujin: just show the profiles
19:11:08 <glx> every little improvement is visible with pile transport ;)
19:11:15 <Rubidium> and yes, they'll always differ, but that's because of how profiling works
19:12:30 <dih> thanks Rubid <-- just to prove a point ^^
19:13:26 <Roujin> hmm if i'm reading the right stuff, it was no good idea after all since the mean time increased with my change.. then again i don't really know how to read it, so i'll shove it into the pastebin and you can make your own picture of it
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19:14:03 <dih> Rubidium: what do you think of the mailing list question?
19:14:30 <Rubidium> I'm not the mailinglist guy
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19:21:00 <Roujin> has pastebin got a limit?
19:23:24 <Yorick> 15.69 0.24 0.24 1020325 0.00 0.00 <-- guess the function - part 2
19:25:13 <Yorick> should blame coop pack
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19:25:42 <Rubidium> I always remove the symlink to the newgrfs from ~/.openttd/data/
19:26:18 <Yorick> why did it run chatmsg_dailyloop?
19:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 22.12 4.53 4.53 31890679 0.00 0.00 Resolve(SpriteGroup const*, ResolverObject*)
19:27:36 <DorpsGek> Prof_Frink: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 0 hours, and 0 seconds ago: <Bjarni> the thing is the guy is a lawyer and knows that he due to his history can't be an independent witness yet he didn't inform of this
19:27:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12905 /branches/0.6/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
19:27:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [0.6] -Backport from trunk r12904, r12876:
19:27:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove trams from savegames saved in OTTD without tram support, it is better than to simply crash [FS#1953] (r12904)
19:27:41 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: GCC on FreeBSD does not support -dumpmachine causing configure to fail. Use g++ instead [FS#1928] (r12876)
19:28:44 <Eddi|zuHause> where did the "0 minutes" go?
19:29:01 <DorpsGek> Yorick: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 0 hours, 1 minute, and 29 seconds ago: <Bjarni> the thing is the guy is a lawyer and knows that he due to his history can't be an independent witness yet he didn't inform of this
19:29:02 <Tefad> 0 minutes into the future
19:29:25 <Yorick> that timing was great :)
19:29:47 <Prof_Frink> I almost missed it
19:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> why do "Save_MAP*()" get called 3 times each?
19:35:31 <Belugas> because it is stuttering?
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19:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i am not sure if i like that request
19:49:28 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you know, what I like?
19:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> is that a trick question?
19:50:21 <Ammler> just because you don't like it
19:50:33 <Ammler> I asked about the preview images
19:52:47 <Ammler> you woudn't need to click through all
19:56:28 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: 2 autosaves?
19:57:20 <Eddi|zuHause> within 1000 ticks?
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19:57:48 <dragonhorseboy> any of you ever play maps where there's pretty much no freights at all?
19:58:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i play mostly passenger games
19:58:53 <Fingon> no freights = no industries ?
19:58:55 <dragonhorseboy> eddi heh so you'll like a multiplayer map that has industries set to zero and a grf that almost only has express trains alone?
20:00:31 * dragonhorseboy is just wondering
20:02:37 *** pm is now known as planetmaker
20:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't like multiplayer maps
20:13:13 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: likes to play with the AI. :-)
20:13:33 <dragonhorseboy> ammler....bah :p
20:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you just forgot a word :p
20:13:45 <dragonhorseboy> how about you ammler? express-only or nah?
20:14:46 <Ammler> I play OTTD only in MP
20:15:05 <Belugas> playing OTTD? sooo pass..
20:15:23 <Fingon> i just let the AI play :)
20:15:43 <Ammler> yeah, I am looking forward to see AI against AI playing
20:15:59 <Ammler> well, then we have maybe more clients as server :-)
20:16:42 <dragonhorseboy> ammler...hmm so you'll like to play a map with no freights at all if we wanted to? :p
20:17:02 <Fingon> dragonhorseboy : is my plane ai invited? :p
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20:19:08 <Ammler> I have enough OTTD for today
20:21:10 <dragonhorseboy> fingon....no planes unless you want to use russiaplanes grf sorry ;)
20:21:21 <dragonhorseboy> ammler...well what if it was another time tho?
20:22:08 <Ammler> I prefer coopish games
20:22:24 <Ammler> I am too lazy to build everything alone
20:22:34 <dragonhorseboy> ammler...heh well quick question
20:22:49 <dragonhorseboy> do you mean two players in one company or two companies that can share resources together (including rail traffic)? ;)
20:25:16 <Ammler> dragonhorseboy: don't you know #openttdcoop?
20:26:07 <dragonhorseboy> ammler..so you like the former then I presume?
20:27:55 <Ammler> the problem is if you join a MP server (not from coop or Brianetta), you should stay there
20:28:06 <Ammler> else your company is gone next day
20:28:17 <Ammler> I like to play same map around a week or so
20:28:31 <Ammler> just 1-2 hours per day
20:29:27 <dragonhorseboy> I still remember playing two cooperative play maps some time ago while I was still able to find some people willing to download the mini-in folder ^-^
20:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i've been known playing the same savegame for months
20:34:53 <Fingon> an average game for me lasts 10 minutes, speed mode
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20:39:01 <peter1138> Fetched 10.6MB in 12s (842kB/s)
20:39:36 <ln> oh, what's wrong with your connection?
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20:58:48 <Roest> made any planets lately?
20:59:57 <Roest> slartibartfast just made norway
21:00:10 <Rubidium> no, that one to replace the one that needed to be demolisched for the highway
21:00:21 *** planetmaker has left #openttd
21:00:27 <Roest> or did he made the whole thing and the price was just for norway
21:00:34 <Prof_Frink> Roest: Well, not just Norway
21:00:49 <Prof_Frink> He just liked doing crinkly coastlines
21:01:13 * Roest goes off reading it again
21:01:42 <Roest> i was always bad about remembering details from books i read
21:02:21 *** planetmaker has joined #openttd
21:02:28 <Roest> is it against the good spirit to tell someone on the forum he's getting annoying?
21:02:55 *** pm|away is now known as planetmaker
21:03:52 <Belugas> Roest, there are so many people on the forums who are sooooo stupid....
21:04:07 <Belugas> so, by all means, by my guest >:)
21:04:22 <Belugas> and me, meanwhile, i'm going home
21:07:30 <Prof_Frink> Belugas: s/forums/internets/
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21:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, especially people who call themselves "prof"
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21:52:30 <Roest> you can get rid of all one way signals there
21:52:38 <Yexo> I'll post an explanation then :)
21:52:51 <Roest> besides the signals that lead away are place wrong too
21:53:32 <Roest> you place signals where you want trains to wait, so leave space that trains can clear the junctions
21:53:50 <Yexo> you mean they should be further away from the junction?
21:54:25 <Roest> also about one way, read michis post at the end of the first page of this thread
21:54:28 <Yexo> I know, but I want trains to leave as soon as possible, so i allow them to wait on the junction, because it's impossible to block other trains except those leaving the same way
21:54:45 <Roest> yea but pbs does that anyway
21:55:14 <Roest> you should turn on show reserved tracks, that shows how it does it
21:56:01 <Roest> that's the beautiful thing about this patch, you only need one signal type, if you dont completely fuck it up
21:57:43 <Yexo> Roest> yea but pbs does that anyway <-- I know, but if I place the signal right after the junction the trains can with a smaller gap
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22:42:51 <mynetdude> do trains your layout get lost often?
22:43:58 <mynetdude> and I noticed the game ends in 2051, and I have noticed others have taken their game all the way to 2069 is there a way to keep going beyond 2069 or 2051 for that matter :XD?
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22:59:26 <Yexo> mynetdude: just don't stop playing when you get your score
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23:03:45 <mynetdude> oh you mean it will let me continue on? :D
23:03:52 <mynetdude> at 2051 it scores me?
23:04:05 <Yexo> at 2051 you get your score, but you can play on as long as you want
23:04:13 <mynetdude> www.thenetdude.com/myttd/mndlayout.jpg
23:04:19 <Yexo> there is even some ttdpatch savegame around in 9000 or something
23:04:43 <mynetdude> Yexo awesome :D wished they had some perks for going beyond the score date
23:05:33 <mynetdude> ah maybe someone will patch that in someday if they are up to it
23:05:45 <ben_goodger> my strategem is to put the date back every couple of years so that it stays permanently in 2012
23:06:41 <Tefad> that's when the mayans say the world ends ; )
23:06:46 <ben_goodger> the grfs I'm using have niceness in that year
23:06:57 <Tefad> coincidence? i think not.
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23:08:44 <mynetdude> sorry off topic, but if the mayans think the world ends in 2012, we are not far from it... shouldn't mankind already be doing something to prepare for it? Or are they just going to live on until we go "boom"? assuming that is what happens
23:09:12 <teeg> Oh, I think Bush is trying to prepare us just fine
23:09:28 <teeg> with all the "oooo we're all gonna die due to GLOBAL WARMING"
23:09:42 <ben_goodger> I think it was a flood as opposed to a "boom"
23:09:43 <teeg> and "you're ALL TERRORISTS thwwwphphphphp"
23:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> if i had an euro for each time somebody has told me the world would end... :p
23:09:48 <Yexo> well, if the worlds ends, there's not much we can do anyway
23:09:55 <Yexo> if there was, the world wouldn't end :P
23:10:19 <Prof_Frink> If I had a pound for every time the world ended, I'd have... £2.50
23:10:21 <teeg> Yexo: well, if the world was going to end, and we all knew it, I'm sure there'd be a bit more fucking going on
23:10:22 <ben_goodger> since there is not much evidence that the previous three or four mayan apocalypses happened, I doubt we have anything to worry about on 2012-12-26
23:10:24 <mynetdude> its not within human powers/ability to stop it anyhow
23:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> the only non-human end of the world is when the sun goes nova, which is like a couple of years away still...
23:11:54 <Yexo> teeg: true, but if we were *sure* it was going to end, we couldn't stop it, else we wouldn't be sure
23:11:56 <ben_goodger> of course it is, we just have to revert to a neolithic society in order to stop the nasty carbon
23:12:12 <Yexo> enough offtopic for me now
23:12:43 <mynetdude> ben_goodger thats alittle hard to do.. humans would not wand to devolve back to that
23:12:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> ben_goodger: good luck feeding 6 milliard people with a neolithic society ;)
23:13:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> there's not much about "want" ;)
23:13:32 <mynetdude> OTOH Eddi|zuHause2 made a good point that I didn't think about... but just try getting from San Francisco to New York in a few hours for a business conference you have to get to without jets
23:13:46 <teeg> I'm sure we could live without returning to a neolithic society, but it would probably involve quite a drastic change in population numbers
23:14:07 <teeg> as in returning from 6-8 billion people to around 1-2 or so I guess. but good luck in achieving that.
23:14:07 <stillunk1own> Some big change has to happen within the next few decades.
23:14:15 <mynetdude> I don't see how the population would need to change, just things would need to be done differently
23:14:23 <ben_goodger> er, that's "billion"
23:14:34 <ben_goodger> 6.5 billion, in fact
23:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> go learn real numbering systems :p 1 milliard = 1000 million, 1 billion = 1000 milliard
23:15:32 <mynetdude> hmm anyway about ottd... is there a patch to allow you to make your existing map bigger?
23:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> mynetdude: no chance
23:16:00 <stillunk1own> Eddi|zuHause2: It depends on language/country.
23:16:16 <ben_goodger> go unlearn nineteenth-century numbering systems. the post-horse-and-cart world uses the short scale
23:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, in every country except the USA, and the half-stupid british are successively adopting that...
23:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> nobody in germany uses "short scale"... germans don't even have a name for that
23:17:46 <ben_goodger> no, the USA has always used the short scale. only quite old british people use the long scale, as we abandoned it in 1974
23:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> that is exactly what i said...
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23:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> but that still makes 3/4 of the world not use the "short scale"
23:19:59 <ben_goodger> let's all just use standard form, shall we?
23:20:09 <ben_goodger> world population = 6.5 E 9
23:20:14 <mynetdude> ben_goodger I agree, that'd be nice
23:20:22 <Zuu> how about inventing a new stupid system that is neutral ;)
23:20:59 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: No, we'll end up with people talking Gibi'rish
23:21:04 <ben_goodger> Sacro: I've only seen that notation in command-line hard disk partitioners
23:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> "standard" ... i've not had such a good laugh in a long time :p
23:21:15 <Sacro> ben_goodger: i use it a fair bit
23:21:16 <stillunk1own> I don't think a prefix works without attaching it to something.
23:21:58 <ben_goodger> in english, we call it standard form. synonyms include scientific notation (used by non-scientists who don't know what it's for)
23:22:12 <mynetdude> so Eddi|zuHause2 why is it not possible to expand an existing map?
23:22:27 <mynetdude> or connect two or more existing maps together
23:22:30 <Zuu> mynetdude: Because it is a lot of work.
23:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> mynetdude: there's a row of "invisible" tiles at the border of the map, you can neither expand nor join these in any way
23:23:07 <teeg> mynetdude: it could probably be done, but it would be a lot of work, and it might not even end up pretty
23:23:14 <mynetdude> well the largest map you can even create is 2048x2048 anyhow
23:23:16 <Zuu> It has recently been up for discussion on tt-forums I think.
23:23:38 <Zuu> recently as in the last month or two :)
23:23:57 <mynetdude> not too concerned about prettyness... but if you start off small and decide you like what you've done you'd like to expand on it
23:24:05 <mynetdude> then again you can just start a new/bigger map
23:24:20 <teeg> there's something to be said for having proper ambitions :P
23:24:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> it is not feasible in any way
23:24:28 <Prof_Frink> Why not just write the numbers out in full?
23:24:38 <mynetdude> Prof_Frink what do you mean?
23:24:44 <Prof_Frink> It's not like there are numbers above 45,000,000,000
23:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> let's use the babylonic number system
23:25:36 <mynetdude> but I do agree... we should standardize numbering systems globally... makes things easier to understand/comprehend and less need for conversion
23:25:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> because of that system we count time and angles in groups of 60
23:25:44 <mynetdude> this world needs better/more standardization :P
23:25:57 <mynetdude> Eddi|zuHause2 like the sundial?
23:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> standardiSation ;)
23:26:09 <mynetdude> uh its standardization for you in the USA
23:26:18 <mynetdude> you UK english spell it with an S
23:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm speaking a foreign language ;)
23:27:02 <mynetdude> well the thing is not that there is anything wrong with spelling it standardiSation vs Standardization...
23:27:02 <Sacro> standardisation if you please
23:27:18 <Sacro> mynetdude: English please
23:27:30 <mynetdude> but I wonder which is most correct... well standardization is english c'mon now
23:27:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> see... you people cannot even standardise your own language, how do you want to standardise "the world"...
23:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> well... except by invading them...
23:28:01 <mynetdude> the thing I DO like about the UK english is colour it is spelled as it sounds, I don't know why US english decided to eliminate certain vowels
23:28:25 <mynetdude> Eddi|zuHause2, I AGREE, but I didnt' say the US should do the standards...
23:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, when germany makes standards, you don't accept them anyway...
23:29:14 <mynetdude> We use A4, we call it legal size
23:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> germans introduced it
23:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> no "legal" is not the same as A4
23:29:51 <Prof_Frink> Neither is "letter"
23:29:53 <mynetdude> how so? I thought we had our own equiv to A4 that being "legal"?
23:30:02 <mynetdude> well I know A4 is not letter
23:30:16 <Prof_Frink> And *everything* *always* wants to print on "letter"
23:30:33 <mynetdude> see thats just the thing, I don't understand why we the whole world including the US can't just agree whether its their idea or ours
23:31:10 <mynetdude> Prof_Frink well in theory you could delete those size presets and create your own as long as you know the paper size you can set the print boundaries and then the margins all you want
23:31:30 <stillunk1own> mynetdude: The differences between us and uk come from the fact that someone in the us tried to eliminate quite a few french and latin influences.
23:31:40 <mynetdude> I've had to do that for paper you wouldn't normally print on and I just took the measurements and input it into the software and the printer sees that data
23:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> as you can see, letter is slightly shorter, and legal slightly longer than A4, and both are slightly wider
23:32:26 <mynetdude> stillunk1own, well I think they did eliminate a lot of latin AFAIK from what I understand the latin language is no longer used except in the scientific communities pretty much
23:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> A0 is defined as 1m² with a ratio of 1:sqrt(2)
23:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> A1 is A0 folded to half, with the same ratio
23:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> A2 is A1 folded to half
23:34:58 <stillunk1own> mynetdude: The significance in science is not that big anymore, but the difference in spelling happened a long time after latin became a "dead" language.
23:36:28 <mynetdude> stillunk1own ah lots have changed since I was taught why we say "homio sapiens" (or however you spell it) the biology teacher explained that Homio Sapiens is the latin way of saying Human.
23:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> actually, it is Homo Sapiens Sapiens
23:36:56 <mynetdude> I didn't know there were spelling variations and based on what I knew or didn't know it seemed like thats what it was
23:37:09 <mynetdude> ah ok so I had it spelled wrong, my bad :(
23:37:15 <Sacro> mynetdude: not sure about you but i'd prnounce it "culer"
23:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> and "Human" is derived from that
23:37:33 <mynetdude> Culer? thats how you pronounced Homo Sapiens?
23:38:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd pronounce it "Kalor" ;)
23:38:24 <mynetdude> oh, you mean the colour was not pronounced "color" for you?
23:38:45 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: That's bottled gas
23:38:51 <mynetdude> ah see over here most pronounce it as it is... color
23:38:54 <Sacro> Prof_Frink: that's what i was thinking
23:38:56 <Zuu> Why not go all way as Norway and spell things just as they sound. And have funny names for things by the way. :)
23:39:46 <Prof_Frink> Zuu: Eh, if you want to say things as they's spelled, and not worry about word order or capitalisation, go back to Latin.
23:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm not sure i get the "bottled glass" reference
23:39:49 <mynetdude> this is really interesting :) I don't mean to be ignorant... but really this is all interesting some of it I had forgotten about
23:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> i love capitalisation ;)
23:40:20 <Zuu> mynetdude: example of what?
23:40:22 <mynetdude> but anyway... the city names in ottd what are they based from?
23:40:30 <mynetdude> Zuu words in norway as they sound?
23:40:48 <mynetdude> I know you can get a newgrf to change city names
23:41:39 <Zuu> J where you pronounce J and not G as in Swedish.
23:42:04 <mynetdude> that sounds like you're about to say octopus
23:42:08 <ben_goodger> Prof_Frink: I don't think the concept of capital and miniscule letters actually occurred during the development of latin
23:42:17 <mynetdude> ock/och that's easy enough
23:42:22 <ben_goodger> scots spell it och also
23:42:39 <ben_goodger> though it means "oh", as in "oh yes", there, I think
23:43:12 <mynetdude> thats another confusing thing about language... you can have the same word mean so many things in various countries
23:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> when someone around here says "ooch" he means "auch" [meaning "also"]
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23:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i suppose nobody of you can pronounce that correctly ;)
23:44:23 <stillunk1own> It's not that hard.
23:44:24 <mynetdude> anybody see my screenie of my map?
23:44:39 <mynetdude> and I noticed you can play on heightmaps... what is that?
23:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> heightmaps means you generate a map from a picture
23:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> especially useful for real world maps
23:45:13 <mynetdude> what kind of picture?
23:45:39 <mynetdude> is there any place specific I can get blank heightmaps?
23:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> one with either 16 colo[u]rs or a greyscale
23:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are probably lots in the forums
23:46:15 <mynetdude> Eddi|zuHause2 you don't have to be so silly to type color or colour, I am perfectly ok with either :D
23:46:19 <Zuu> I think there is even a HOWTO for that in the forums.
23:46:27 <mynetdude> cool will look around
23:50:01 <mynetdude> is 12904 the latest nightly?
23:50:25 * mynetdude wants to see if there is something different in the nightly
23:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> @openttd commit
23:51:28 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: Commit by rubidium :: r12905 /branches/0.6 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2008-04-25 19:27:27 UTC)
23:51:29 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: [0.6] -Backport from trunk r12904, r12876:
23:51:30 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: - Fix: Remove trams from savegames saved in OTTD without tram support, it is better than to simply crash [FS#1953] (r12904)
23:51:32 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: - Fix: GCC on FreeBSD does not support -dumpmachine causing configure to fail. Use g++ instead [FS#1928] (r12876)
23:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> with all the backporting, there is probably not too much new right now
23:52:13 <mynetdude> ah I see 12905 is the latest... but it doesn't show that on the site yet
23:52:18 <Zuu> mynetdude: You can look in the file changes.log if you have downloaded it.
23:52:25 <mynetdude> sorry, backporting means?
23:52:36 <mynetdude> Zuu oh ok I'm downloading it now
23:53:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> porting from the current development branch [trunk] to the previous release branch [0.6], to prepare a bugfix release
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23:54:19 <mynetdude> ah I just saw the shortlog
23:54:33 <mynetdude> the latest 12904 will not save trams
23:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> you read it wrong
23:55:19 <SmatZ> it would be pretty useless :)
23:55:37 <SmatZ> it will remove trams from savegames saved with OTTD versions that didn't support trams
23:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> but you don't have old savegames, so it does not affect you
23:57:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> mynetdude: the most important ones from user point of view are the commits tagged "-Feature:"
23:58:27 <mynetdude> oh sorry I am new to the dev stuff
23:58:41 <SmatZ> but sometimes an interesting change/feature is hidden in a decent message ;)
23:58:54 <mynetdude> ah ok so it removes the trams on older savegames because the older saves would not support it anyhow
23:59:17 <mynetdude> ah ok SmatZ you're the one who fixed the tram from older savegames :D
23:59:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, on very old savegames, trams would have behaved like busses, so when loading them now they would end up without rails
continue to next day ⏵
