IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-11-25
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00:00:02 <Gonozal_VIII> numpad in the middle of the letters? that sucks...
00:01:06 <Gonozal_VIII> but i guess seperate doesn't work with less then 17"...
00:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> laptop keyboards used that trick to save space
00:01:30 <egladil> never use the numpad on laptops anyway
00:02:39 <ln-> do you have the latest generation iBook G4?
00:05:17 <egladil> i have the 2004 model
00:06:44 <ln-> no two-finger scrolling then, pity.
00:07:33 <Gonozal_VIII> i know what two-finger scrolling is :D
00:07:59 <ln-> if you were thinking something perverted, that's you own problem.
00:18:57 <SmatZ> ln-: what bug were you talking about?
00:19:20 <SmatZ> [00:32:33] <ln-> try to scroll the map quickly with right-mouse down, release button only after the cursor is outside OTTD window.
00:20:05 <SmatZ> when I go out of the OTTD window while holding button and then return back, my cursor disappears...
00:32:33 <Zuu> SmatZ: That one is quite old, and was SDL related on linux if I'm not wrong.
00:36:41 <Zuu> But if I'm not wrong that is not a real issue with relative input devices?
00:37:10 <Zuu> As the cursor position don't move when you scroll.
00:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> something was funny recently, when you scroll, and alt+tab out of the window, and then go back, you scroll without holding the mouse button
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00:41:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11518 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Codechange: enforce (by assert) unused parameters of widgets to be zero. Better readability of DrawWindowWidgets(), too
00:45:57 <Zuu> Not easy to know everyting when so MUCH is happening in the ottd world :)
00:48:19 <Zuu> Beeing the one who submitted that bug it is quite easy to remember it.. :p
00:49:02 <ln-> Beeing = attacking someone with an army of bees?
00:49:18 <SmatZ> no wonder you remember it :)
00:49:23 <Sacro> my chinese housemate thought that walking the dog == dogging
00:50:42 <Belugas> ln-, what is it about? i can't read german, but it sound interesting to me
00:53:25 <Zuu> Sacro: As always it is those who are less familar with a langage that creates new facinating combinations. :p
00:53:44 <Sacro> she was most embarresed when i told her what dogging is
00:54:30 <Gonozal_VIII> <-- too stupid to understand it but it seems to be an algorithm that is trying to avoid wrong guesses when you pipeline stuff through the cpu
00:54:53 <ln-> Belugas: something like "If conversion from SSAs".
00:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> he wants to reduce the conditional branches when converting SSA into code
00:56:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> because the less branches you have, the less the branch prediction can fail
00:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> and taking wrong branch always is a loss of pipeline
00:57:47 <ln-> has he written that much text just for fun, or is "Studienarbeit" something like a bachelor's thesis?
00:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> it is definitely some requirement for his studies, but i don't think he is studying for bachelor/master
00:58:33 <Belugas> i think the latter will be more exact
00:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> more probably he is studying for "diplom", where this thing would be a prerequisite for starting his diploma-thesis
00:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> "Diplom" would be loosely comparable to "Master"
01:00:38 <Gonozal_VIII> they want to start bachelor/master system here in the next years
01:00:39 <ln-> this sounds funny: "Prof. em. Dr. Dr. h.c. Gerhard Goos"
01:01:32 <Gonozal_VIII> here = my university
01:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> they started last year here, i think
01:02:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> but tron already studies a tiny bit longer than that ;)
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01:03:15 <Zuu> soon I have to choose if I want to get the old exam that is also called Master or if I want to get the bolonga-master or there was a third possibility I don't remember...
01:03:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> a paper like this is usually directly followed by the diploma-thesis, which is another 6 month to finish studying
01:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> here, everyone would recommend you to study after the old scheme, if you have the choice
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01:05:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> it is even questionable if the newly introduced bachelor even fulfils the bologna criteries
01:05:30 <Zuu> okay. I mostly have heard from people that they want to go the old way to get out a half year earlier (after 4.5 instead of 5 years) so that they can start to work earlier.
01:05:36 <Belugas> i know he is studying on computer sciences (obviously), that he has achieved quite a degree so far, but i do know know the exact level he reached
01:05:36 <ln-> the first time i see Dr. twice in front of someone's name
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01:06:44 <Gonozal_VIII> they are very strict with titles here... and some people like to collect them all^^
01:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: that is very common in germany, but really uncommon in english speaking areas
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01:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> like people have "Prof. Prof. Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr."
01:07:35 <ln-> would "diplom" be localized to english as something else than "master of science"?
01:07:35 <Belugas> he was not alwasy easy to get along,but he's damn good and sometimes, even fun to talk to
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01:09:01 <Gonozal_VIII> everybody knows, that unununium is not stable!
01:10:20 <ln-> the last thing i said was:
01:10:22 <ln-> 03:03 < ln-> would "diplom" be localized to english as something else than "master of science"?
01:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> a couple of google results: "Prof. Prof. Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. (wenn man den Buchumschlag glauben soll) Guido Knopp"
01:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> "Herrn Prof. Prof. Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. (kein Witz!) Theodor Berchem"
01:10:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> "Prof. Prof. Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. rer. nat. phil. med. vet. hc Dipl. Betriebswirt Dipl. Psych. Dipl. Ing. Adolf Samuel Rothschild"
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01:11:06 <Sacro> you can't call a child Adolf
01:11:27 <ln-> Sacro: obviously mr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. is not a child.
01:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> i assume he was born between 1933 and 1945
01:11:49 <Zuu> My gosh, that's just wierd amount of titles... compared to the situation here where you say 'you' to almost anyone.
01:12:30 <Gonozal_VIII> but they would be offended if you forget one of the dr.
01:14:13 <Gonozal_VIII> btw isn't samuel jewish?
01:14:15 <ln-> what have they done to gain (Prof.)³ (Dr.)¹¹ ?
01:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, those are extreme cases, but it is quite common to have "Dr. Dr." or "Prof. Dr. Dr."
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01:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, the name could be jewish
01:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> but also jews were born in that period :p
01:15:17 <Gonozal_VIII> but named adolf?^^
01:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i do neither know this person nor this person's parents nor this person's parents' reasoning behind the naming
01:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> but if he was born in that period, he would be between 62 and 74 now
01:17:29 <Gonozal_VIII> can't be much younger with that many titles
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01:19:14 <ln-> i live in a country where getting a doctoral degree requires at least a few years of post-graduate research.
01:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, especially in medical studies, they have an accelerated doctor degree
01:20:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> because people don't go to a doctor that is not a doctor
01:20:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> so they make the doctor degree for the name plate
01:21:15 <ln-> what's the degree below that?
01:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> "dipl. med." allows you to be medical practitioner
01:23:17 <ln-> "Lizenziat der Medizin" over here, as far as the term Lizenziat is translatable.
01:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> "Diplom" is the usual finish of studying
01:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> "Doktor" is typically a 2-4 year advanced study after that
01:25:03 <ln-> "Magister" (i.e. master) is the usual finish here.
01:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> that time depends mainly on how much teaching you have to do in that period as well
01:26:58 <ln-> but in medicine and dentistry people do not (and cannot) graduate as masters, but instead they graduate directly to Lizenziat, which is somewhat higher degree.
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01:46:43 <Sacro> "To continue reading this article, subscribe to New Scientist. Get 4 issues of New Scientist magazine and instant access to all online content for only £2.95"
01:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, the company with the big T has that kind of protective thinking...
01:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> like they sued someone for using of the URL "e-online.de"
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02:49:44 <Gonozal_VIII> why sleep when you can stay up instead?
02:50:46 <Gonozal_VIII> time for sleeping is when all that light starts to come in through the windows and hurts the eyes
02:51:26 <Belugas> it's when your wife calls you to bed
02:52:02 <Belugas> who can resist the voice of sirens ?
03:02:32 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm just testing the needed curve radius that trains need to prevent slowdown... but that seems to change
03:03:13 <Gonozal_VIII> a train with 180 takes the same curve with 180 3times and then the 4th time it slows down to 160
03:03:38 <Gonozal_VIII> how is that possible?
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11:37:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11519 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Codechange: enumerization and cleanup of NetworkLobbyWindow in network_gui.cpp
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12:14:06 <Hendikins> Nothing like non-timetabled trains to make an otherwise boring Sunday at work somewhat interesting.
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12:58:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: egladil * r11520 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/event.mm: -Fix: [OSX] The cocoa video driver let the mouse cursor escape the window when using rmb scrolling. Thanks ln- for pointing this out and providing a fix.
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14:43:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: egladil * r11521 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: [OSX] Check what the running os version is in a cleaner way.
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15:00:20 <PinguTux> hi guys! i have written a patch that brings back the selection of different screen resolutions on mac
15:00:24 <Gonozal_VIII> stupid 12h radio clock... i just woke up and thought it was 4am on monday and i slept through the whole sunday instead of some hours
15:00:47 <Tefad> Gonozal_VIII: so fix your clock?
15:00:57 <Tefad> i use my mobile for timekeeping
15:01:04 <Tefad> it's quite accurate, auto-syncs too.
15:01:23 <Tefad> reboots for unknown reasons sometimes though . ..
15:04:01 <Gonozal_VIII> my laptop clock is synced and shows 24h time but the laptop was off and i my radio clock should show a little red dot when it's pm but there was a power outage some days ago and i set it 12 hours wrong...
15:04:03 <skidd13> PinguTux: Ask egladil. He's the one who works on that
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15:11:22 <Sacro> PinguTux: send it to Bjarni :)
15:11:53 <Gonozal_VIII> a patch for screen resolutions on mac
15:12:58 <Bjarni> oh the thing on flyspray that I have open right now
15:17:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r11522 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix: The scrollbar of the network gui could run out of bounds
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16:23:37 <dihedral> helo Bjarni :-) (1 hour later ;-) )
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16:32:39 <Bjarni> oh what a nice highlight
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17:08:42 <ln-> i'm watching a TNG episode with "John Locke" as an admiral
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17:15:08 <Bjarni> we don't prefer Hungarians over other nationalities :P
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17:16:46 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: btw it was you who talked about syncronised TV, right?
17:17:06 <Bjarni> I think I know something that even beats German synchronisation
17:17:59 <Bjarni> Swedish children TV broadcasted in Denmark... it's not like Swedish is that hard to understand but they still add Danish talk to it
17:18:16 <Bjarni> they use a single woman for it so everybody gets the same voice
17:18:44 <Bjarni> then she tells who says what and that results in longer lines so she talks over sound fxs and stuff
17:18:50 <Bjarni> and leaves stuff out due to lack of time
17:19:03 <Bjarni> they didn't remove the Swedish talk either
17:19:20 <Bjarni> I don't think you can get much lower than that
17:19:30 <Gonozal_VIII> good for the children, they learn to filter information :-)
17:19:47 <Bjarni> I can remember that I never liked that woman
17:20:29 <Bjarni> later I learned that as an adult I don't like how that woman behaves
17:20:44 <fjb> :-) That is pretty low. Hard to beat.
17:21:05 <Gonozal_VIII> bah ln that's crap
17:21:25 <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: it isn't, and you didn't understand it.
17:21:47 <Bjarni> ln-: looks like a budget video but somehow it's very fitting
17:21:53 <Bjarni> beats some other music videos
17:22:26 <ln-> Bjarni: the funny thing is that it's really produced by the tv-avgift authority.
17:22:28 <Bjarni> "Nordens Billigaste". <--- yeah.... sure looks like it
17:23:08 <ln-> those two artists are relatively well known and have performed as rabbit and cat many, many times before.
17:24:04 <Bjarni> <ln-> Bjarni: the funny thing is that it's really produced by the tv-avgift authority. <-- here they spent a fortune building a new building that's way too expensive and costs just keeps on increasing and it's a crap building that's way too cold because the wind goes right in and such
17:24:16 <Bjarni> and they keep talking about how they want more money to make TV :s
17:25:27 <Bjarni> but luckily the politicians says that they can't just get more money from the viewers because they fuck up their economy by poor management and they still demand the same quality of TV. There is an interesting future for the TV in Denmark
17:27:33 <dihedral> i can remember someone who would 'ban' others for posting youtube links ;-)
17:27:34 <Bjarni> ln-: watching a 2nd time actually makes it kind of awesome :D
17:27:53 <Bjarni> dihedral: he isn't here so I discarded the ban rule
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17:28:13 <dihedral> topic: And please, no YouTube.com Posting
17:28:27 <Bjarni> but the word "ban" isn't part of it anymore
17:28:47 <dihedral> no - it's a lot politer now
17:28:59 <dihedral> just nobody will pay attention to it :-P
17:29:20 <Bjarni> now it's like: "don't do it" (somebody does it anyway) "ok, but don't do it again"
17:29:37 <dihedral> yes - a bit like english and us police men
17:30:10 <Bjarni> it's like the Danish law regarding escaping prison
17:30:11 <dihedral> british police man: "Stop!, or i'll say 'stop!' again!"
17:30:20 <dihedral> us police man: <bank> "Stop!"
17:30:34 <Rotonen> where is the root of this anti-youtube? (or is it just to avoid unnecessary attention catching stuff from the web in general?)
17:30:46 <Bjarni> if you escape and is caught then you aren't supposed to get an additional penalty... but naturally you have to be there until you served your time
17:30:57 <HerzogDeXtE1> isnt this channel about openttd? :D
17:31:05 <dihedral> what is that, ottd...
17:31:16 <dihedral> this is a youtube posting channel
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17:31:28 <HerzogDeXtE1> ;D dihedral i dont think so
17:31:32 <Bjarni> Rotonen: it originates from the fact that youtube didn't work on TrueLight's computer but now he resigned
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17:31:51 <Rotonen> kind of selfish, but ok :)
17:32:10 <dihedral> it's kinda annoying if everybody posts their funny vids here
17:32:14 <Bjarni> <HerzogDeXtE1> isnt this channel about openttd? :D <-- it's a waste of bandwidth not to use it when nobody talks about OpenTTD :P
17:32:45 <HerzogDeXtEr> okay Bjarni :D it just was a joke...
17:32:54 <Rotonen> but by talking here you make all the routers inbetween draw more power and hence warm the globe more!
17:33:35 * fjb thinks about leaving irc now.
17:33:52 <Prof_Frink> YouTube's alright, non-youtube flash places less
17:34:10 <Rotonen> although there are some really solid flash animations around there
17:34:22 <Rotonen> mostly the scene died at around 2003
17:34:29 <Bjarni> Rotonen: well... if you consider the rooter heating to be a major concern compared to say the merchant navy then I would like to see your reasons for thinking so
17:34:37 <Prof_Frink> 'caue I *know* youtube links have to be opened in fx rather than konqui, whereas with $videositeoftheday I don't
17:35:07 <fjb> Flash has one security hole after the other. I don't understand why people are always using flash. Especially for movies there are many better formats.
17:35:12 <Rotonen> Bjarni: just the direct link between power consumption and electricity production
17:35:25 <Rotonen> although there are renewal sources, non-carbon sources
17:35:33 <Rotonen> and not really going into that discussion :)
17:35:54 <Rotonen> fjb: well for animations it is a good format
17:35:57 <dihedral> Rotonen: sinse when is a network packet cpu intense? :-P
17:36:23 <Bjarni> besides... are you sure that routers use more power when really active. Remember that the LED turns off for a really short time when transferring. Can you prove that the less power to the LED is less than the extra spent on handling the package?
17:36:27 <Rotonen> dihedral: if the network hardware is decent, it won't go through the cpu of it at all
17:37:02 <Rotonen> Bjarni: i can prove more throughput of same type equals more power required
17:37:02 <dihedral> Rotonen: does that not depend on the router setup?
17:37:33 <Rotonen> but i'm just fairly certain that talking here consumers more power around the world than idling here
17:37:39 <fjb> Hm, many modern network chips use a MIPS core...
17:37:49 * Sacro sits and wastes electric
17:37:59 <dihedral> wait Sacro i'll join you
17:38:10 <Bjarni> Sacro: you are a waste in general so there is nothing new there :P
17:38:20 <Sacro> actually, we got told at uni to use UK servers rather than Europe/Asian/US ones
17:38:21 * Prof_Frink plugs Sacro into the electric
17:38:24 <fjb> I have a cheap network card, that has more CPU power than my older PCs.
17:38:31 <Sacro> as it saves electric and lowers our carbon footprint
17:38:38 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: That's to save on long-dista
17:38:58 <dihedral> just iptables does not run in the network chip
17:39:04 <Prof_Frink> Where are these enter characters coming from?
17:39:07 <Rotonen> Sacro: i think the real cause is indeed to save on upload traffic
17:39:24 <fjb> iptables? What crap is that? :-)
17:39:42 <Bjarni> at uni we have the servers on the intranet. It saves bandwidth
17:39:53 <Bjarni> and it also saves time when somebody decides to send a huge file
17:40:31 <Rotonen> pretty much any IT department should do that, yes
17:40:36 <Rotonen> naw, studying is far too much fun
17:40:47 <Rotonen> although i do have a job too :(
17:40:47 <Bjarni> we also have a tucows mirror on the intranet
17:40:59 <Rotonen> Prof_Frink: some things do not even need to be said :P
17:41:24 <Rotonen> Bjarni: is that really useful or is it rather a remnant of the past?
17:41:25 <Bjarni> but I don't drink... should that mean that studying isn't fun or ?
17:42:05 <Bjarni> <Rotonen> Bjarni: is that really useful or is it rather a remnant of the past? <--- it was really useful when I needed to download a huge file and the speed was in MB/s all the time
17:42:42 <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: your rail network sucks... it looks like your high speed steam train is slowed to a crawl
17:45:40 <Bjarni> anyway I don't think it's a huge concern that packages for IRC should create global warming due to extra load on the routers as I'm pretty sure the routers will not really be able to tell the difference
17:47:03 <Bjarni> Rotonen: if you want to do something good for the environment then stop farting and burping. Methane gas in farts and burps hurts the atmosphere more than CO2
17:47:25 <Prof_Frink> Rotonen: Or, light your own farts.
17:47:33 <Bjarni> you should also stop breathing because you exhale CO2
17:47:52 <Rotonen> in the spirit of the previous conversation in total: your argumentation is far too thorough and well versed
17:47:59 <Bjarni> basically you should stop living but you shouldn't die either because it's also bad to rot
17:48:26 <Rotonen> diving into the sun would probably be the best
17:48:41 <Rotonen> more hydrogen for the star to burn and prolong our system
17:48:56 <Prof_Frink> Yes, 'cause the momentum transfer would push us away from the sun and cause the Earth to cool
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17:49:17 <Bjarni> but then you need to escape the gravity of our own planet and to do so you take up energy that will also hurt the environment
17:49:38 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Solar powered rocket.
17:50:11 <Rotonen> the most ridiculous thing is that the could actually build one in the near future
17:50:25 <Bjarni> but it hurts the environment to produce solar powered rockets
17:51:27 <Bjarni> we need something like a solar powered cannon to get rid of you without pollution and that we can reuse for the next environmental hazard
17:52:09 <SpComb> don't forget the gravity: www.conservegravity.org
17:52:16 <Gonozal_VIII> [18:50:11] Rotonen: the most ridiculous thing is that the could actually build one in the near future <-- a solar powered rocket? how should that work?
17:52:17 <SpComb> I wonder how much gravity talking on IRC uses up
17:52:28 <SpComb> I guess it depends on the altitude difference between the participants
17:52:55 <Bjarni> <SpComb> I wonder how much gravity talking on IRC uses up <-- it depends on the font size
17:53:06 <Prof_Frink> SpComb: So /that/'s why patchbloke left us
17:53:25 <Bjarni> and what kind of paper you use for printing your logs
17:54:46 <SpComb> perhaps I should note at this point that it's kind of hard to read text with this font size
17:55:00 <SpComb> and the resolution in terms of rows/cols in really big, meaning more data transferred over SSH
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17:57:23 <Bjarni> I don't get the conserve gravity idea...
17:59:28 <Bjarni> it's like saying that we should stop drinking because the oceans might run dry
17:59:33 <Rotonen> an absurd counter movement to overzealous carbon conservists?
18:02:15 <Bjarni> you mean those guys who thinks carbon should be in the ground where it has always been (in their lifetime)?
18:02:44 <SpComb> there's carbon in my bones
18:02:58 <Bjarni> currently we have access to enough coal to power our civilisation for 300 years
18:03:13 <Bjarni> so we have a 300 year deadline for finding an alternative
18:03:39 <Bjarni> the deadline for oil is much shorter but we can always just revert to coal
18:04:16 <Bjarni> we can even use coal to produce oil if we like. It's just not very efficient
18:04:23 <Sacro> not the way i like to live
18:04:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
18:04:49 <Bjarni> <Sacro> not the way i like to live <-- what do you mean by that?
18:05:10 <Gonozal_VIII> setting free all the carbon that has been stored for millions of years won't destroy the earth but it will cause changes... we will have to adapt to that changes and that will cost us money... the trick is to predict those costs and balance them with the investment in alternate energy sources
18:05:52 <fjb> Bjarni: Should the people in DK not slowly start to develop submarine houses?
18:06:04 <Bjarni> Sacro: you are born a century too late... in 1907 they wanted a whole lot of people to shovel coal into steam engines... maybe even more earlier as the steam engines were less efficient
18:06:52 <Sacro> i want to work on the railways :(
18:07:24 <Bjarni> <fjb> Bjarni: Should the people in DK not slowly start to develop submarine houses? <-- actually the ground below Denmark was under a lot of pressure from the ice 10k years ago. The ground is like a huge sponge so it expands when the pressure is gone so the land is actually rising
18:07:48 <SpComb> better polish up those coal-powered steam engines in preperation for when the oil dries up
18:07:55 <Bjarni> <Sacro> i want to work on the railways :( <-- they have an electric future
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18:08:03 <fjb> Bjarni: You are lucky then.
18:08:09 <Sacro> i want electric and diesel :(
18:08:11 <SpComb> but meh, an oil production shortage would have severe effects upon the global economy
18:08:21 <Prof_Frink> Not if you play UKRS ;)
18:08:29 <SpComb> it's about more than suddenly, one day not being able to fill up at the gas station anymore
18:08:37 <Bjarni> <SpComb> but meh, an oil production shortage would have severe effects upon the global economy <-- yeah... the Norwegians would actually have to work
18:09:09 <fjb> And US would have less wars. :-)
18:09:10 <Bjarni> I try but it's damn hard
18:09:13 <SpComb> is there oil in kenya?
18:09:25 <Gonozal_VIII> that's a flash loop
18:09:26 <Sacro> possibly the crappiest DMU in the country
18:10:06 * hylej throws a F40PH at Sacro
18:10:37 <Bjarni> not only do you guys appear to be rather strong, but you also have the right rolling stock near you
18:10:46 <Bjarni> and can aim pretty well over huge distances
18:11:13 * Sacro goes down to the air raid shelter
18:11:15 <hylej> we're awesome like that
18:11:48 * Bjarni watches as Sacro drowns
18:11:49 * Prof_Frink throws a TBM at Sacro
18:11:58 <Bjarni> people just claimed the sea to be raising
18:12:34 <Bjarni> but... it's an open question if that will really happen
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18:12:48 <Gonozal_VIII> but throwing train engines over huge distances wastes lots of gravity!
18:13:17 <Bjarni> then you better get to the gravity station as soon as possible
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18:15:01 <Gonozal_VIII> i've already chained myself to the floor so i won't float away :-)
18:15:07 <Bjarni> but seriously... if the global temperature raises then some ice will melt but hotter air will be able to contain more water. It's still an open question if the result of this will be raising or lowering sea levels
18:15:32 <Bjarni> besides melting floating ice will not make the water level rise
18:16:00 <fjb> But there is much ice on the land.
18:16:04 <Gonozal_VIII> as i said... it won't destroy the earth or kill millions of people and so on but it will change some things and that will cause costs
18:16:46 <Bjarni> <fjb> But there is much ice on the land. <--- there is lot's of ocean to fill up. Imagine how much water it takes to raise the Pacific 1 cm
18:17:08 <Bjarni> and if you increase the temperature enough to melt so much ice then the air will contain more water
18:17:42 <Gonozal_VIII> somewhere i read that the greenland ice would be 5m for global sea level... i don't know how well calculated that was
18:17:49 <fjb> The bigger problem is the raising temperature in the mountains.
18:18:22 <Rotonen> yes, that leaves a lot of people without water
18:19:18 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> somewhere i read that the greenland ice would be 5m for global sea level... i don't know how well calculated that was <-- Greenland is big but still...
18:19:41 <Bjarni> besides it's unlikely that all of it will melt in the near future
18:20:36 <Bjarni> it has been there for ages and it tells us the story of the planet's temperatures and what was in the air
18:20:37 <Gonozal_VIII> they didn't fear that it all melts but that it breaks apart and slides into the ocean
18:20:39 <Rotonen> well the problem is the water acting as a lubricant and sliding it all fairly rapidly into the ocean
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18:21:30 <Bjarni> drilling in the ice in Greenland has told us that the temperature has dropped noteworthy compared to 1000 years ago
18:21:51 <Bjarni> while it was much colder 400 years ago than it is today
18:22:33 <Bjarni> it also tells us that around 1880 the temperature dropped rapidly (most likely due to the eruption of Krakatora)
18:23:08 <Bjarni> while it was much colder than usual the scientists started to measure temperature and when the planet recovered the scientists noticed an increase in temperature (go figure)
18:23:10 <Rotonen> the temperature is not high, yes, but the rate at which it is rising, is new
18:23:50 <Bjarni> <Rotonen> the temperature is not high, yes, but the rate at which it is rising, is new <-- are you sure? It looks like it will just continue to rise at the same speed as it did the last 100 years
18:24:29 <Rotonen> have you actually taken a look at the raw data yourself?
18:24:36 <Bjarni> that is if you look at scientific evidence rather than what Al Gore pulls out of his hat (with no evidence or theory to support it)
18:25:09 <Bjarni> ALL scientists agreeds that there are nothing to support what Al Gore talks about
18:25:36 <Bjarni> well... he might pay a few to do so but nobody that aren't paid by him
18:25:37 <Rotonen> but a healthy majority of oil funded ones, yes
18:25:58 <Rotonen> and no, not going to find a non-affiliated one soon
18:27:33 <Bjarni> 30 years ago the scientists claimed that we were heading for a new ice age
18:27:57 <Bjarni> I wonder what they will say in 30 years
18:30:24 <Gonozal_VIII> if the water rises, they will build higher dikes, if there will be less water available to drink, they will pay more for it, if it gets colder they will spend more on heating... nothing we can't adapt to... but we have to calculate if it's cheaper to change behaviour now or to adapt to a changing environment
18:30:29 <Bjarni> but the theory about CO2 is a good one for politicians. "black smoke is bad" and they can measure it and put taxes on it
18:30:38 <Bjarni> so they appear green to the voters
18:31:49 <Bjarni> so the theory of CO2 turned into a political case without real scientific proof
18:33:24 <Bjarni> and now it turned into a case where "it's common knowledge" that global warming is caused by CO2 so the fact that the sun is hyper active and more active than ever recorded before is discarded as a reason for global warming
18:34:11 <Rotonen> well the increase WAS measured.. :)
18:34:30 <Rotonen> just that it's in the wrong order of magnitude to be the culprit
18:35:14 <Bjarni> but nobody can tell that the impact of CO2 has the right order of magnitude
18:36:06 <Rotonen> it's the only known factor so far which has an impact, so it's easy to blame
18:37:12 <Bjarni> actually the original theory about CO2 is disproven because it tells that a certain layer in the atmosphere should keep the heat. That layer is actually cooling down
18:38:01 <Gonozal_VIII> reflect, not keep :-)
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18:38:27 <Bjarni> there is no question that we should take care of the environment but.... there is no scientific evidence that whatever the politicians comes up with will have an effect
18:40:03 <Bjarni> like the concept of cleaning the smoke from a coal powered powerplant for CO2 and putting it in tanks. We know that it can be done by testing it but we know that it takes 30% of the produced power to do so and then what to do with the stored CO2... the idea is to pump it into the ground and pray that it will stay there
18:40:46 <Bjarni> personally I consider a project like that a waste of money and resources compared to what else we could have done with the same resources
18:41:08 <Bjarni> also it will not remove everything from the smoke... I think it was like 85% of the CO2 or something like that
18:42:41 <SERVEPRO> all the people in siberia welcome global warming
18:42:50 <Bjarni> we can stop all the powerplants in the country and it wouldn't matter because other countries wouldn't do so
18:43:37 <Bjarni> and can you imagine China who is building coal powered powerplants right now would welcome an expense they can't pay and an output reduction of 30% for something as CO2 reduction?
18:44:02 <Rotonen> SERVEPRO: well it makes the terrain unpassable when it melts.. :)
18:44:03 <Bjarni> in reality we have less options than we have in theory
18:45:27 <Bjarni> yeah... in the arctic regions they prefer below 0°C temperatures because otherwise everything will melt and their buildings will be submerged into the mud
18:45:46 <SERVEPRO> haha interesting i didn't know that
18:45:50 <Gonozal_VIII> storing co2 as a gas won't work... you could only try to store it with burrying plants or something like that...
18:45:56 <SERVEPRO> but you are right, china will burn all the coal
18:46:13 <SERVEPRO> and all the oil they can buy
18:46:39 <Bjarni> not to mention that snow below... -28°C (I think) will not melt when hitting stuff so it's not wet like we know snow and it will not join together in big piles like the snow we know
18:47:07 <Bjarni> it's like sugar or something... only small "grains" that will not stick together and is easy to move around
18:47:43 <SERVEPRO> usually snow around here freezes together into chunks like big rocks
18:47:56 <Rotonen> afaik -32 in some sane humidity, but still there's variation
18:47:58 <Bjarni> <SERVEPRO> but you are right, china will burn all the coal <-- what we could do would be to help China to increase power output by say 10% (would still be less efficient than our power plants) without using more coal
18:48:08 <Rotonen> how the crystals have formed, what is the humidity
18:48:42 <SERVEPRO> that will be helpful, but aren't they still going to burn the coal until it is all gone
18:49:06 <Bjarni> <SERVEPRO> usually snow around here freezes together into chunks like big rocks <-- no that's not the snow, that's snow that melts for a sec and then freezes as ice. If you prevent it from melting for a sec then the "glue" is gone
18:49:16 <SERVEPRO> i dont know frankly, i just dont see them moving to solar or something even if we do
18:49:27 <Bjarni> snow itself will not pack together in big balls
18:49:40 <Bjarni> you can't make snowballs with really cold snow either
18:50:05 <Rotonen> well you can't really make snowballs when it's more than -5 celcius anyway
18:50:08 <Bjarni> that would be like taking some sugar and presume to make a ball out of it
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18:50:54 <Gonozal_VIII> [19:49:40] Bjarni: you can't make snowballs with really cold snow either <-- you can with enough pressure... but that's no fun
18:50:57 <SERVEPRO> white sugar ou brown ;)
18:51:22 <Gonozal_VIII> ok, technically it's not cold snow anymore then...
18:53:02 <Gonozal_VIII> we sometimes have -25 here but it doesn't snow when it's that cold...
18:54:51 <Rotonen> also making snowballs just wets your mittens and ruins the waterproof leathery ones
18:55:18 <Gonozal_VIII> real pros use bare hands
18:55:45 <Gonozal_VIII> much more control then
18:55:49 <SERVEPRO> yes, protection clothing is for the weakk
18:56:13 <Prof_Frink> See, I just use rocks
18:56:29 <Rotonen> well, in a serious snowfight, which might take hours, bare hands are not the choice of winners
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18:57:01 <SERVEPRO> it depends whether you are allowed to wear clothing in the snow fight or not
18:57:10 <Prof_Frink> Oh, if we're taking things seriously, you can't beat an AK47
18:57:29 <Gonozal_VIII> you don't want to make a snowfight when it takes some minutes of preparation to get a single ball to stick together anyways....
18:58:11 <Gonozal_VIII> you just throw some ice chunks then^^
18:59:15 <Rotonen> Prof_Frink: well the modern all-metal variants with superior sights might have a significant leverage in an average firefight
18:59:39 <Rotonen> the original had 2 faults: poor sights and the selector made a click
19:00:08 <Prof_Frink> Rotonen: All metal and freezing temperatures may be a bad thing if you want to be able to put it down
19:00:18 <Gonozal_VIII> but cheap and reliable :-)
19:01:04 <Rotonen> Prof_Frink: well handles are customarily made from plastic these days, but "all metal" as in the integral parts
19:01:07 <Gonozal_VIII> just be sure to have dry hands all the time, shouldn't have a problem then
19:03:09 <Gonozal_VIII> yay nightly time
19:05:39 <Gonozal_VIII> now they want to clone trees :S
19:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> attack of the clone trees? is that a mixture of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings?
19:16:13 <Gonozal_VIII> they want to make an entire new forrest out of clones of some very old redwood tree
19:16:53 <Prof_Frink> The New Forest is over there <--
19:17:30 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think that's a good idea... a forrest with lots of genetically identical trees would be very vulnerable
19:20:23 <Bjarni> yeah we would want to have different trees so if one is hit with a disease then there is a chance that the one next to it will survive
19:20:53 *** Lord_Dudelsack has joined #openttd
19:21:16 <Bjarni> btw I just remembered some facts about China and powerplants. They are building new powerplants (mainly coal powered) so they increase their power output by the power output of England every year
19:21:39 <Bjarni> they aren't very efficient (like 30% or something)
19:21:53 <Bjarni> a standard Siemens power plant has an efficiency of 38%
19:22:09 <Bjarni> we have the most efficient in the world (49%)
19:22:24 <Bjarni> and that's pure electricity
19:23:00 <Bjarni> we use the cooling water as a heating source so we actually use more than 90% of the energy in the coal
19:23:02 <Gonozal_VIII> is that with fuel cell technology or something?
19:23:34 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> is that with fuel cell technology or something? <-- fuel cells has an efficiency of around 25% as it is now and I'm talking about coal powered powerplants
19:24:00 <Bjarni> the trick is to use as high pressure as possible and they use somewhere around 300 atm
19:24:26 <Bjarni> so a single litre of steam is really full of energy
19:24:55 <Bjarni> also the burner is constantly tweaked for max efficiency (airflow and so on)
19:26:44 <Bjarni> But during the conversion of one form of energy to another, about 65% of the coal's energy is lost, says Weibel. <-- fits with the description of a Siemens standard powerplant that uses 38%
19:26:50 <Bjarni> (and that's a modern one)
19:27:38 <Gonozal_VIII> that's because it is the description of a modern coal powerplant
19:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> 38% is already a lot...
19:27:57 <Bjarni> but it's not as good as we can build them
19:28:46 <Bjarni> but Siemens will have to support and repair the plants after they are build and then they will not dare to push for really high efficiency like we do with our homemade powerplants
19:30:35 <Bjarni> I believe that the fuel cells has a future but it's in the future, not right now
19:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> any future has a path that leads there
19:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> it does not make *snap* and suddenly it comes
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19:33:03 <Bjarni> The program's goal is to develop a multi-megawatt SOFC power system, 100 megawatts and larger, with at least 50 percent overall efficiency <--- "goal"
19:33:53 <Gonozal_VIII> FuelCell Energy recently announced an electrical efficiency milestone of 56 percent for the DFC/T power plant, a record for a combined cycle sub-megawatt fuel cell power plant.
19:35:31 <Bjarni> I wonder how well it works
19:36:01 <Bjarni> today we have SO2 and NOx as serious issues when burning coal
19:36:49 <Bjarni> looks like it can take care of the NOx issue by using a lower temperature
19:37:20 <Bjarni> but what will happen with the sulfur in the coal and will it do anything else that we didn't expect and don't want it to do
19:42:07 *** Sacro was kicked by Bjarni (such an insult was uncalled for)
19:43:12 <Bjarni> I thought the same thing
19:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> but shouldn't it be sulphUr?
19:43:25 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
19:43:37 <Rotonen> any more capitalizations available for emphasizing?
19:43:49 <Bjarni> I try to write in your language and because I make a single spelling mistake you show up with a mighty insult
19:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway, the real name is "Schwefel" ;)
19:44:28 <Gonozal_VIII> A Yankee is someone of United States origin or heritage.
19:45:05 <Bjarni> I'm not related to anybody in USA
19:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> over how many edges do you count?
19:45:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11524 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1485]: assertion when tram reversed at a station.
19:46:03 <Bjarni> my granddad once got a letter from a lawyer that the single person from the family who went there died without family so now all his cousins in Europe got his money
19:46:37 <Bjarni> it kind of looked like the American dream happened for him because it was a decent amount of money and my granddad bought a brand new car for the money
19:46:51 <Bjarni> while wondering "who was this guy. I never heard of him"
19:47:23 <Bjarni> that's basically how well related I am to USA... one guy nobody heard about and who died without getting any children
19:52:03 <Sacro> Bjarni: i said "bloody yanks" cos it was them who bastardised the name
19:53:07 <Gonozal_VIII> hmm i like that "o" instead of "ou" stuff they do
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19:54:34 <Rotonen> Sacro: thank you for the correction, but do save some mercy for the non-natives such as us
19:54:54 <Rubidium> Gonozal_VIII: yes, they are great in destroying anything and everything...
19:55:00 <Sacro> Rotonen: I am teaching the foreigners how to speak English
19:55:56 <Desolator> could you recommend me a gnu/linux distro? I tried Ubuntu & Xubuntu, but they're quite simple...
19:56:12 <Rubidium> Learning them to speak English, it is rather about writing it.
19:56:50 *** Knightmare has joined #openttd
19:57:07 <Desolator> neah, no livecd stuff, it's slower that a turtle
19:57:24 <Desolator> Sacro: Arch is a bit to...complicated
19:57:28 <Bjarni> <Sacro> Bjarni: i said "bloody yanks" cos it was them who bastardised the name <-- you did it in a way that indicated that you meant that I should be one of those people who vandalise a perfectly good language like English
19:57:29 <Sacro> Desolator: in what way?
19:57:51 <Knightmare> can someone confirm a bug for me...? What do i need to post, my cfg, the sav & what else...?
19:58:03 <Rotonen> arch is a nice distro if you constantly manage to keep it up to date and are not drowned in the infinite configuring of chancing specifications
19:58:15 <Rubidium> start with telling what the 'issue' is?
19:58:19 <Bjarni> Knightmare: knowing what version you use and what OS would help too
19:58:23 <Desolator> Sacro: how about needing to ask a ton of questions about how to install X & Y, why Z doesn't work, etc. on my first install
19:58:26 <Bjarni> depending on what the issue is
19:58:33 <Knightmare> i get the NOT_REACHED triggered at line 152 of /compile_farm/openttd/nightly/compile_dir/src/slope.h on XP when using any nightly or 0.6b
19:58:41 <Sacro> Desolator: pacman -S foo
19:58:42 <Prof_Frink> Desolator: Debian.
19:58:48 <Sacro> or pacman -Ss foo to search
19:59:11 <Bjarni> Knightmare: ok that is an issue... could you tell when it happens. Is it linked to a specific action or something?
19:59:16 <Rubidium> Knightmare: that would require the savegame and how to reproduce it.
19:59:45 <Knightmare> ok, so this happens when trying to load said savegame. I can post GRFs and such on a server if that helps
20:00:18 <Knightmare> Bjarni: its from main menu trying to load savegame which works ok in 0.5.3
20:00:20 <Rubidium> Knightmare: does *any* nightly also mean the one of today?
20:00:32 <Knightmare> yes just tested tonights and the 0.6RC
20:00:44 <Bjarni> hylej: that's a good case of what can happen as a result of a brake failure. The teacher put this one on the screen when he was about to talk about train brakes and how to ensure that they work as expected
20:01:12 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Why not the infamous "Shit!" poster?
20:01:19 <Desolator> 0.6RC? Cool! The beta period went over so fast!
20:01:40 <Bjarni> surprisingly only one person was seriously hit... the newspaper seller on the street who got hit in the head
20:01:50 <Bjarni> and is likely still under the engine when the picture was taken
20:01:54 <Prof_Frink> Ah, it /is/ that one
20:02:15 <Prof_Frink> That'll teach me to look at links before commenting on them.
20:02:17 <Knightmare> affecting all my savegames, tested without "slopes built on" and seems ok
20:02:17 <Gonozal_VIII> driver wasn't hurt?
20:02:24 <Bjarni> <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Why not the infamous "Shit!" poster? <--- most likely... it's used all over when it comes to train brake safety
20:02:51 * Prof_Frink points at his later commentary
20:02:55 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> driver wasn't hurt? <-- the driver and the fireman jumped off onto the platform before the train derailed because they knew what would happen
20:03:05 <Rubidium> "The train, the quickest way to get into the city"
20:03:21 <Bjarni> this is the main station in the heart of Paris
20:03:50 <Prof_Frink> Maybe he was trying to go on the Undergroud
20:03:55 <Bjarni> they think it was due to ice in the brakepipe so when the locomotive started braking the wagons didn't
20:04:04 <Rubidium> oh, that's the reason why they have a "Gare du Nord" and a "Gare du Sud" now, that was the old main station ;)
20:04:36 <Bjarni> I think this one is the northern one
20:04:55 <Knightmare> it's based on glasgow underground, but i added lots more lines :)
20:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> actually it's gare du nord and gare de l'est
20:05:40 *** hylej is now known as hylje
20:05:52 <Rubidium> well, with 0.003 MB/s it won't be very useful
20:06:23 <Knightmare> should be faster now
20:06:32 <Bjarni> closed your p2p client?
20:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> tuned down $filesharing_tool?
20:07:07 <Knightmare> yeah i was seeding suse 10.3, doh
20:07:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i'd have said that, too :p
20:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> urgs... 90° turns...
20:08:20 <Bjarni> when I decided to share the OTTD distributions I didn't have any bandwidth issues
20:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> wouldn't it make more sense to have the trains turn around in the station (dead end) instead?
20:09:19 <Knightmare> yeah, it has some poor design details
20:09:23 <Bjarni> Knightmare: this is totally unrelated to the bug report but... why is there catenary on the signal tile (in the middle)?
20:09:41 <hylje> Eddi|zuHause2: turning place
20:10:05 <Knightmare> think i put elrails instead of normal rails
20:10:31 <Knightmare> i was trying to electrify the system and failing
20:10:35 <Gonozal_VIII> i get that not reached thing too
20:11:19 <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: you are banned :P
20:11:38 <Knightmare> when (if) the game is loaded, there are lots of lines running that have no houses near to them. I put the track down first
20:12:05 <Bjarni> I think somewhere in Austria there is a guy who got *!*@*.at banned
20:12:47 <Bjarni> stealth banning... it simply looks like you are trying to reach files that's not there
20:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> i once banned *.t-dialin.net
20:13:26 <Bjarni> I once banned *.uk and then Sacro started laughing because I missed him with his .com domain so I banned *.com too
20:13:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> it wouldn't make much sense to ban sacro elsewhere :p
20:14:09 <Prof_Frink> Why not just ban * and be done with it?
20:14:13 <Knightmare> a good thing would be train depots you can drive through, as the train depot can cause lots of train accidents
20:14:27 <SmatZ> I once banned *!*@* , so nobody could join, I was the master
20:14:27 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause2> it wouldn't make much sense to ban sacro elsewhere :p <-- actually it would make sense to ban him everywhere but that's besides the point
20:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: and that was in #i_am_the_master?
20:15:23 <Knightmare> ok, has everyone taken the files they need from me? I dont want to leave http server going so long
20:15:24 <Gonozal_VIII> [21:14:13] Knightmare: a good thing would be train depots you can drive through <-- very new idea, nobody thought about that before ;-)
20:15:36 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause2: no, there is Bjarni master
20:15:51 <Knightmare> heh, well, i add +1 vote for it ;)
20:16:10 <Prof_Frink> SmatZ: Unfortunately The Master was defeated by The Doctor
20:16:25 <Knightmare> i need to code the car hoist GRF for that scenario before < 1970
20:16:38 <SmatZ> Prof_Frink: I don't know that one :(
20:17:10 <SmatZ> #i_am_the_master - yes, I am :)
20:17:28 <Bjarni> damn right now I forgot his name but our wiki maintainer once managed to ban himself from the wiki so he couldn't log on and unban himself. He wanted to test it and banned himself for 5 minutes. After 5 hours he declared that he needed help as he was still banned
20:17:45 <Bjarni> --- Cannot join #i_am_the_master (You are banned).
20:17:57 <SmatZ> Bjarni: yes, I am the master
20:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a real shame they do not broadcast Doctor Who here...
20:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> the channel bought the rights...
20:18:33 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: The latest series was pretty shit
20:18:38 <Prof_Frink> Except for one episode
20:18:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> and always announces it for the next spring/summer/autumn/winter
20:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> but never actually show it
20:19:10 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: Don't blink.
20:19:31 <Prof_Frink> DOn't turn your back, don't look away, and whatever you do, don't blink!
20:19:35 <SmatZ> Bjarni: how did he solve that ban?
20:20:03 <Bjarni> <SmatZ> Bjarni: how did he solve that ban? <-- server admin had to unban him
20:20:24 <Gonozal_VIII> what if server admin bans himself?^^
20:20:26 <Rubidium> Knightmare: the issue should be solved now
20:20:29 <SmatZ> I wonder what would happen if the server admin would have banned himself
20:20:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11525 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp town.h town_cmd.cpp):
20:20:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: do not do all kinds of 'updates' for town, waypoint, station and other
20:20:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: signs when you haven't converted the map to the 'current' format as that means
20:20:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: you are going to read data in the 'old' format when you assume that it is in the
20:20:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: 'current' format.
20:21:05 <Prof_Frink> SmatZ: DB hackery probably
20:22:37 <Gonozal_VIII> how do large people fit in there?
20:23:35 <Bjarni> they are passengers not people
20:23:49 <Gonozal_VIII> passengers aren't people?
20:23:50 <Ammlller> possible that a client could desync because of different OS?
20:24:28 <Ammlller> only windows clients are connected all the time, other desync after 1min
20:24:30 <Knightmare> clockwork orange is a crazy undergorund
20:24:41 <Knightmare> i use it only occasionaly
20:24:43 <Bjarni> <Ammlller> possible that a client could desync because of different OS? <-- it's more likely that a client can desync due to a different endianess
20:24:44 <Gonozal_VIII> people is the superclass of passengers :-)
20:25:10 <SmatZ> Ammlller: and the server runs on windows?
20:25:14 <Bjarni> there is nothing super about passengers
20:25:27 <Ammlller> server runs on linux
20:25:30 <Bjarni> this is Glasgow, remember?
20:25:39 <Gonozal_VIII> i didn't say that, people are super ;-)
20:25:39 <Ammlller> wait, I have something to check
20:25:45 <Knightmare> Bjarni: i hadnt seen that, no. Looks good tho
20:26:04 <hylje> there's not only one but two underground incomplete metro stations here in helsinki
20:27:00 <Bjarni> there is a forest down there
20:27:13 <Bjarni> the botanic garden station has changed into a forest :D
20:27:36 <hylje> why was that line abandoned?
20:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Gonozal_VIII> passengers aren't people? <- soylent green is people
20:27:46 <Knightmare> if they build second circle for 2014 i will need to update this map :D
20:28:45 <Bjarni> I think it was wrong to close the line with the botanic garden (can't remember the line name). It would be nice to have it today
20:28:48 <Ammlller> does it hurt, if a server is not compiled with --enable-dedicated?
20:29:01 <Knightmare> you could ammend my map to add it ;)
20:29:01 <Gonozal_VIII> it's wrong to close any line
20:29:04 <Bjarni> but the tunnels are still there... they could just go down there and lay new tracks
20:29:22 <Bjarni> after they used chainsaws to cut the forest away
20:29:24 <Ammlller> it does "only" use more cpu usage, or is there something else?
20:29:45 <hylje> Bjarni: suppose they would need to clean up the base too
20:29:58 <hylje> Bjarni: but semi-vegetated platforms would be kewl
20:30:02 <Bjarni> that is part of the track laying part
20:30:25 <hylje> i thought getting rid of trees is also a part of that
20:31:20 <Bjarni> just take a big locomotive and you solve that part
20:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammlller: it does not do anything more, you just need more dependencies and get a bigger binary
20:33:03 <Bjarni> the bigger binary is a huge issue
20:33:34 <Gonozal_VIII> yes.. hard to fit it on a dvd that way...
20:34:02 <hylje> Bjarni: one needs to build the rails before running some locos on it
20:34:40 <Bjarni> if you reach the end of the tracks with high enough speed then you clear the forest in front of the track
20:34:51 <Knightmare> do i need to do anything else with this bug, and where should i be reporting it..?
20:35:20 <Gonozal_VIII> you need a track laying train that has wheels in the front part :-)
20:38:00 <Bjarni> hylje posted a link that shows that you are demanding too much
20:42:15 <Gonozal_VIII> yes... you'll get rid of the trees that way.. but then you have a huge chunk of metal lying around there instead
20:42:34 <dihedral> Bjarni: correct me if i am wrong, but amd and ppc use same endianness?
20:42:40 <Knightmare> maybe i should scale down my metro efforts :D
20:43:16 <Bjarni> PRR 4876 in 1953 in Washington DC
20:43:42 <Bjarni> <SmatZ> some poor, dead train <-- it survived and wasn't withdrawn until 1984
20:43:47 <dihedral> Bjarni: that was with regard to desyncs on the mz games
20:44:18 <Bjarni> <dihedral> Bjarni: correct me if i am wrong, but amd and ppc use same endianness? <-- PPC is big endian and AMD is little endian
20:44:37 <SmatZ> dihedral: interesting... I though ppc uses BE and x86/amd64 LE, but it seems ppc can switch to LE too
20:45:04 <Bjarni> all PPC are big endian
20:45:14 <dihedral> all AMD i take it are be
20:45:29 <Bjarni> except the 400 series that has a little endian mode so the software controls what endianess they have
20:45:39 <SmatZ> Bjarni: maybe wiki is wrong - "Most PowerPC chips switch endianness via a bit in the MSR (Machine State Register), with a second bit provided to allow the OS to run with a different endianness"
20:45:42 <Bjarni> Apple used the 600, 700 and 900 series
20:45:45 <dihedral> ok - but the AMD64 X2
20:46:58 <dihedral> Bjarni: i was in the game with an AMD XP 2400+ and the PPC G4
20:47:08 <dihedral> and i did not desync with my amd
20:47:14 <dihedral> Mucht desynced though with his
20:47:25 <Bjarni> anyway whenever an Apple OS runs on a PPC it runs in big endian mode
20:47:25 <Mucht> at the same time as Osai...
20:47:40 <dihedral> all was at the same time
20:47:43 <dihedral> watching the same town
20:48:24 <Bjarni> G3 and G4 use reading in reversed byte order or switch endianess in hardware rather than software. It's a bit slower than normal read but it's way faster than software conversion
20:48:26 <dihedral> Bjarni: should i not have desynced then with my amd?
20:48:36 <Bjarni> for some reason this feature is not available in G5...
20:49:08 <Bjarni> but then again G5 has a lot of other cool features
20:49:36 <dihedral> but then it got too warm to be put into the powerbooks :-P
20:49:39 <Bjarni> an endian conversion isn't a big issue in OpenTTD anyway
20:49:57 <dihedral> then why would *nix based os's desync
20:50:21 <Bjarni> I mean it's not done in the game, only when loading/saving and other times when time isn't a real issue
20:51:14 <Bjarni> dihedral: here is the rule for endian related desyncs: if there is an endian issue then big endian and little endian will do something different with the same input
20:51:28 <Bjarni> since they do something different then somebody will desync
20:51:39 <Bjarni> and that will be everybody doing something that the server didn't do
20:52:06 <dihedral> but if you say that osx runs in BE mode on a G4
20:52:13 <Bjarni> so basically the computers that desyncs will be the computers that use a different endianess than the server
20:52:58 <Bjarni> AMD is designed to execute windows and windows is hardcoded LE
20:53:11 <Bjarni> OSX for PPC is hardcoded BE
20:53:26 <Bjarni> OSX for intel macs is hardcoded LE
20:54:08 <Bjarni> because of that you will find a few (one?) ifdef in the OSX specific files depending on endianess
20:54:09 <ln-> dihedral: where the hell did you get the idea that AMD is BE?
20:54:28 <dihedral> yes ok, so both the g4 and g5 desynced
20:54:33 <Bjarni> basically it's #ifdef big ending then set big endian flag in sound driver
20:54:34 <dihedral> but out of 2 amd's only one desynced
20:54:59 <Bjarni> <dihedral> but out of 2 amd's only one desynced <-- this clearly showed that it's not an endian issue
20:55:24 <dihedral> so - how could one find out what _is_ the issue?
20:56:49 <dihedral> unless of course there were an endianess diff in amx64 x2 and amd xp 2400
20:58:57 <ln-> there is no endianness difference between amds.
20:59:27 <SmatZ> maybe some newgrf problem, like InteractiveRandom() used where Random() should be used, or rendering affecting some newgrf register that is then used to switch to Random() etc...
20:59:46 <SmatZ> I saw a lot of desyncs while new industry was built, but that was probably fixed
20:59:54 <Knightmare> well i am going to shoot
21:00:04 <Knightmare> thanks for your patience tonight guys ;)
21:02:52 <dihedral> Bjarni - SmatZ : is there anything i could do to find out?
21:03:26 <Bjarni> <dihedral> so - how could one find out what _is_ the issue? <--- sometimes it's easier to rule out what it's not
21:04:28 <Bjarni> <dihedral> Bjarni - SmatZ : is there anything i could do to find out? <--- I know a way but you are not going to like it
21:04:47 <Bjarni> find a savegame that will desync for sure
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21:05:03 <dihedral> we have a save that will desync for sure
21:05:09 <Bjarni> then start the game with the conditions that will make it desync
21:05:23 <dihedral> it's paused on the mz
21:05:23 <Bjarni> edit openttd.cfg for the server and the desyncing client
21:05:39 <dihedral> what do i need to add?
21:05:46 <Bjarni> you can't edit the config when the game is running
21:06:10 <Bjarni> savegame_format = none
21:06:24 <Bjarni> that is ludde talk for "no compression"
21:06:30 <Bjarni> now the savegames will be huge
21:06:41 <dihedral> and then save every month
21:06:54 <Bjarni> but I forgot how to set it to do that
21:06:56 <dihedral> i did not know i could do that
21:07:05 <Bjarni> maybe you can remember
21:07:12 <dihedral> and when it desyncs, diff
21:07:16 <Bjarni> how do you set OpenTTD to save every day?
21:07:29 <Bjarni> I used to do that with you to find the cause of desyncs
21:07:35 <ludde> asking me? i don't remember
21:07:49 <ludde> just edit the code to save it every day?
21:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd say move up the line in the tick handler
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21:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> there's some line like _do_autosave = true
21:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> inside an if (new month) block
21:08:36 <Bjarni> dihedral: well, somebody will have some code reading/editing to do to figure out how to make it save every day
21:08:39 <Gonozal_VIII> save every tick? :D
21:08:50 <Bjarni> maybe that would be a good idea
21:09:04 <Bjarni> but once a day could be enough
21:09:11 <dihedral> Bjarni: if it's not endieness based desync, can i run the server and client on the same machiene?
21:09:20 <Bjarni> then run the game as single player on the server and the client using the same settings
21:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> tick handler has the form "do tick stuf, if (new day) { new day stuff, if (new month) { ... }}"
21:09:39 <Bjarni> and wait until after the desync will happen
21:09:52 <Bjarni> disable background saving too as it will cause problems when saving that often
21:10:10 <Bjarni> them use md5 or something to find the first savegame that's different
21:10:27 <Bjarni> those two savegames will tell what's different and give a clue to what went wrong
21:10:42 <Bjarni> dihedral: got the idea?
21:10:44 <Gonozal_VIII> very good idea bjarni
21:11:08 <Bjarni> even scrolling around the map will modify the savegame
21:12:08 <Bjarni> right now it's the only way I can think of on how to track down this problem because nobody has a clue to what actually goes wrong
21:13:08 <Bjarni> I can remember when we used to do this and it turned out that x86 and PPC didn't handle an overflow in the same way and it resulted in a town building different buildings when expanding... that would have been more or less impossible to find without doing this
21:13:13 <Bjarni> "but I didn't do anything"
21:14:17 <dihedral> i could see if it desyncs on my amd running linux too
21:14:18 <Bjarni> the hardest bugs to track down are bugs that's completely unrelated to user interaction
21:15:33 <dihedral> Bjarni: i'll let you know latest in 2 weeks how that turned out :-)
21:16:12 <dihedral> i'll be in sweeden in one week :-)
21:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> did you manage the autosave thingie?
21:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> back when i played daylength x32 in miniin, i did that
21:16:45 <dihedral> i guess that will not be much of a problem to get it to save every day
21:16:46 <Bjarni> I wonder who would be best to figuring out what is different in the two savegames based on hex reading
21:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> because a day is as long as a month normally
21:17:09 <Bjarni> <dihedral> i'll be in sweeden in one week :-) <-- any reason for this torture?
21:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> there was this line "_do_autosave = true;" in date.c
21:17:36 <dihedral> nice - thank you Eddi|zuHause2
21:17:59 <dihedral> well then - off to bed for me
21:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> just move that from the monthly section to the daily section a few lines up
21:18:22 <Bjarni> are you going to get up at 5 O'clock to milk the cows or something?
21:18:40 <dihedral> and the mz game yesterday made me stay up until 3am
21:19:08 <dihedral> and i only have until Thursday to meet the deadline and finish a project
21:19:35 <Bjarni> then sleeping is wrong
21:19:43 <Bjarni> you should be working on it :P
21:19:53 <dihedral> i will - as of tomorrow
21:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> anyone knows how to handle Ark? i want it to automatically choose RAR format if i unpack a .r00 file
21:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> it always asks me because it is not a standard extension...
21:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> and i don't want to click on the .rar file, because that one is always at the bottom of the list
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21:25:11 <Gonozal_VIII> so you'll have to scroll a little for your illegal filesharing stuff ;-)
21:25:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it's just an additional click...
21:25:41 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause2: Try Kontrollzentrum/dateizuordnungen.
21:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> and it does not have anything to do with filesharing
21:26:23 <Gonozal_VIII> why else would you use such multi volume packages?
21:26:26 * Prof_Frink can rarely be bothered with ark
21:26:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: no, the .r00 files are associated with ark
21:26:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> just after opening them, ark asks what format it is
21:27:08 <Prof_Frink> `unrar x <tab>.rar`
21:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: for example, a DVD is 4.4GB, but you can only put 4GB files on them
21:27:53 <Gonozal_VIII> and you have files, that require so many 4gb parts that you have to scroll for the .rar tile?
21:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> Prof_Frink: that is slower than right click -> extract -> extract here (click)
21:29:09 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: Not if you're sitting at a term parked in the appropriate dir
21:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: i also have files packed to 100MB to fit on a zip dirk
21:29:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> Prof_Frink: that is an argument for my side ;)
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22:12:35 <ln-> is anyone working for, or otherwise in contact with a company that imports computer accessories from asia?
22:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i'm right he... what a beautiful butterfly...
22:13:48 <Gonozal_VIII> most computer stuff comes from asia?
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22:21:11 <ln-> there must be at least five TNG episodes where a starfleet admiral arrives on Enterprise, and then is eventually found out to do something crazy and is relieved of duty.
22:22:14 <Rotonen> as expendable as ever
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23:32:27 <Omnituens> hey guys, whats the latest nightly build based on? 0.6.0 beta, or a different one?
23:32:54 <LeviathNL> 0.6.0 beta is based on a nightly
23:33:16 <Omnituens> because i just installed a nightly, and its saying 0.5.3
23:33:25 <Gonozal_VIII> the nightly is a daily compilition of the current development state
23:33:37 <glx> Omnituens: then it's not a nightly
23:33:51 <Omnituens> i probably just messed up the install
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