IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-11-12
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01:06:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11416 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp: -Fix(r11411): For once, the warnings of MSVC are not useless. Inversion of the two parameters of DoTriggerHouse cause a complain which was legit, in this case
01:12:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11417 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix[FS#1421]: Let the main viewport stay where the vehicle was last seen while been center-followed
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01:38:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11418 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp: -Fix (r11416): forgot an instance
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09:46:21 <divo> Is it possible to configure openttd to work through a proxy server? I'm trying to play an internet game but I can't even get the server list.
09:47:51 <divo> I've configured a proxy tunnel and it works with other games like Warcraft 3 but not with openttd
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09:50:07 <Rubidium> the serverlisting can't be done via a proxy, but you can view servers at servers.openttd.org and connect directly using their IP/port
09:52:13 <divo> I will try that out, thanks
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09:55:53 <divo> That worked beautifully, now I can play oTTD in class :)
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10:15:09 <dihedral> that was a short visit
10:15:42 <titus> wth, it doesn't even need any silent-death shit which creates the need of using udP :/
10:16:17 <Rubidium> it's needed due to the fact that you cannot open more than 500 connections on 'plain' Windowses
10:16:31 <titus> windows doesn't know about setrlimit?
10:16:53 <titus> how about primary tcp and then fallback to udp if errno for that crap is detected?
10:17:02 <titus> tho most NAT's are able to map UDP traffic too nowadays
10:17:35 <dihedral> whats wrong with the way it is?
10:17:48 <Rubidium> titus: it's not simultanious connections, it's network handles that can be opened in total by a Windows application
10:18:07 <titus> god bless I don't program windows servers
10:19:22 <titus> disabling RAW sockets cause the hacking done with RAW sockets... give me a break :/
10:20:48 <titus> but disabling functionalty due some windows stupidity is just plain ignorance :)
10:22:10 <titus> unless you're javaprogrammer and your library (what you don't know what its doing) does that for you :)
10:23:36 <Rubidium> so, I hope you now understand why we use UDP for that, and it's rather the reason why we use UDP that is 'wth' than actually using it
10:23:40 <dihedral> titus, ignoring a very wide spread OS is ignorance
10:24:19 <titus> I still don't understand why udp
10:24:43 <dihedral> Rubidium just explained it to you
10:24:44 <titus> which windows has that 500 limit?
10:24:53 <titus> which cannot be modified with setrlimit() kinda basis
10:25:22 <dihedral> if you have success, post it in bugs.openttd.org
10:26:04 <titus> well first I would need to know which windows has the 500 limit which "can't be modified" with any kind of syscall on hard/soft-level
10:26:30 <dihedral> you have all you need for a good query
10:26:55 <dihedral> oh - hint: www.google.com/winodws
10:27:35 <dihedral> or have a look at www.google.com/codesearch
10:28:38 <titus> "windows 500 filehandles limit" I get only about the 1024 / C10K limits.. 500 is something unheard of to me during my career of 10years of programming various servers :)
10:31:09 <dihedral> titus... rething your search
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10:32:56 <titus> inbound connections....
10:33:20 <titus> why in earth do you need inbound connections when you can receive just tcp established packets or is this again some witty microsoft term
10:33:39 <titus> oh you want to run master on windows
10:33:55 <dihedral> that was just a 'hint' that there are some odd limits
10:34:03 <dihedral> to encourage you to search a little more
10:34:38 <titus> I haven't seen a limit which limits to 500 outgoing connections :)
10:34:41 <dihedral> and... why on earth are you complaining about it?
10:34:50 <Rubidium> titus: 500 is approximate -> 512. Furthermore it seems to 'use' two handles for each opened network connection
10:34:51 <dihedral> is it in anyway limiting you?
10:35:23 <titus> I just get mad when some network programming is done awful :)
10:35:35 <dihedral> then go write a patch
10:35:40 <Rubidium> complain at the friends of Microsoft
10:36:41 <Rubidium> I've personally had this issue too when I tried to implement some cross-platform network socket library long ago
10:36:52 <Rubidium> so it could be a 9x-only issue
10:37:10 <Rubidium> but then again, we still support 9x, so you still can't use TCP
10:37:25 <dihedral> i thought 9x was no longer supported
10:37:40 <titus> page says it doesn't even support windows 2000 :P
10:38:00 <dihedral> Windows Zip File (Windows 2000/XP/Vista ONLY)
10:38:33 <Rubidium> recent enough win9x binary to say we still support it?
10:38:53 <Rubidium> dihedral: and on the downloads page:
10:38:55 <Rubidium> In addition, binaries for different Linux distributions, MorphOS, Windows 95, 98 and ME, Windows64, etc. are available here. Or you can download the files via BitTorrent. For a list of torrents, see here.
10:39:01 <dihedral> Rubidium: just found it :-P
10:39:53 <titus> ok you could support DOS too and then rip all the network functionality because one of the platforms don't support it :-)
10:40:06 <titus> (did somebody write a decent stack to dos btw :> )
10:41:02 <Rubidium> DOS doesn't need any real changes -> ./configure --disable-networking (or something like that)
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10:50:06 <Rubidium> hmm, wrong focuses suck!
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10:52:05 <titus> get focus follows mouse :P
10:53:13 <Rubidium> nah; wouldn't have solved the issue
10:54:15 <Rubidium> lag on the line meant that my server was in another window than my client showed
11:01:37 <dihedral> Rubidium: what do you think of FS1363
11:02:37 <dihedral> unfort i specified a wrong 'reported version' number :-S
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11:26:58 <Rubidium> dihedral: why is it hardcoded in one place and not hardcoded in another? Even... why does it use hardcoded numbers at all.
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12:05:08 <dihedral> Rubidium: do you mean the if (client_index == 0)?
12:09:59 <dihedral> Rubidium: the only place i see an '8' is in a console output (which is not very nice, i agree - i'll fix that)
12:10:06 <dihedral> are you looking at v5 of that patch?
12:12:43 <dihedral> and i need to replace ActivePlayerCount()... that aint good there...
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12:42:43 <dihedral> Rubidium: what do you think of the general idea?
12:47:40 <fjb> The nfo interpreter is a really strange kind of virtual machine.
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14:20:45 <DorpsGek> dihedral: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 27 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Bjarni> the reply to you just got queued
14:39:57 <ln-> finnair charges the violent passenger 250 euros per minutes late.
14:40:48 <ln-> and the plane was 160 minutes late
14:42:48 <mikl> |fjb|: That gives me bad associations to Ruby...
14:54:53 <fjb> What's so unpleasant with Ruby?
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15:26:09 <dihedral> when the server checks that clients are in sync, there is a check on a 'random' value, correct?
15:26:51 <dihedral> i assume this calculation is based on the map the client is using?
15:27:31 <dihedral> or could it be possible to return the correct value, without handling map and doCommands?
15:33:51 <glx> dihedral: the 'random' seed value depends on how many times Random() has been called
15:35:07 <dihedral> so i actually could wriet a client, that stays connected in the game all the time (i.e. does not desync) but does not have to process all pathfinding and industry de/increases etc?
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15:35:39 <glx> all these things use Random()
15:36:00 <dihedral> well... i would have to write something that emulates the amout Random() is called... no?
15:36:08 <glx> and you can't know in advance how many times Random() needs to be call
15:37:00 <dihedral> well - having all pathfinding functions and so on cut down to calling random?
15:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> wääh... my DVD drive is broken...
15:37:19 * dihedral feels sorry for Eddi|zuHause
15:38:00 <dihedral> glx: if all methods that use Random() are cut down to do nothing else, but call Random()
15:38:15 <dihedral> would that be a start?
15:38:33 <dihedral> my thought is going towards an rcon interface :-P
15:38:34 <glx> but as I said you can't know how much call to Random() are needed
15:38:59 <glx> a path can need 1 Random(), but another 1 can need 2 or more
15:39:35 <dihedral> so i would need another tcp port :-P
15:39:47 <dihedral> and run everything via that
15:40:14 <blathijs> dihedral: What are you trying to achieve?
15:40:25 <dihedral> 16:38 < dihedral> my thought is going towards an rcon interface :-P
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15:40:46 <dihedral> a graphical admin interface that has a client and company list
15:42:08 <blathijs> It would be a lot more correct to modify the protocol (perhaps add a new type of client or something) than to pretend to be a normal client and fake random values
15:42:57 <dihedral> yes, that's true blathijs
15:43:07 <dihedral> didn't think of it that way :-P
15:43:26 <dihedral> well - then the way would be another tcp port dedicated to rcon
15:44:05 <blathijs> dihedral: Perhaps, but you might be able to fit into the existing protocol
15:44:40 <blathijs> Which would not require a new port (might make the protocol a bit more complicated for your remote console, though)
15:50:09 <dihedral> yeah - make a PLAYER_RCON = 200 :-P
15:50:39 <Unknown_Entity> can anyone help me with a problem which i'm having with my ds port? i'm still getting wrong SpriteIDs.
15:51:06 <Unknown_Entity> the offending line is still viewport.cpp:705: *vd->parent_list++ = ps;
15:52:10 <Unknown_Entity> i've split that line into *vd->parent_list = ps; vd->parent_list++; for debug purposes and this is the debug output i get after the first part is executed: http://paste.openttd.org/291
15:52:47 <Unknown_Entity> as you can see the value of _cur_vd->first_tile->image is being changed without intention
15:53:23 <Unknown_Entity> (btw this is compiled with -o0)
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17:43:57 <fjb> Is an empty action 0 allowed?
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17:49:38 <LeviathNL> you can't attach more than 1 file on flyspray?
17:50:19 <Wolf01> you shouldn't show me that kind of images... now i'll take another night to search my tongue
17:50:23 <fjb> Belugas: I have seen it about an hour ago. Zimmlock is a great artist. But is there a limit for the number of sprites in the game?
17:50:46 <LeviathNL> oh wait a select more files button :P
17:51:01 <fjb> LeviathNL: Attaching more than one file didn't work for me.
17:51:32 <Belugas> fjb, i'm sure there is a limit, i just dont know precisely the nmber. quite high, in fact...
17:51:57 <LeviathNL> Fjb, no problems here
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17:52:46 <fjb> Belugas: You seam to know much about nfo. I'm just a beginner and so I'm looking into other people GRFs to learn. Now I have found something I don't understand:
17:52:54 <fjb> 3 * 7 00 02 01 01 00 08 FF
17:52:54 <fjb> 6 /home/frank/TTD/grf/newships/newshipsw.pcx 114 8 01 1 52 -14 -7
17:53:14 <fjb> LeviathNL: Maybe that is browser dependent.
17:54:06 <fjb> What are that empty action 0? Or is that a bug in grfcodec?
17:54:12 <LeviathNL> you mean part of sprite 1 & 2 are missing?
17:54:54 <Belugas> or undocumented feature ^_^
17:54:56 <fjb> LeviathNL: No, that was a cut and paste error, sorry.
17:55:02 <Belugas> but it looks like broken
17:55:18 <fjb> I mean spricte 5, 7 and 8.
17:55:26 <LeviathNL> does grfcodec make absolute paths?
17:55:27 <glx> looks weird with grf2html
17:56:00 <fjb> That is from Michaels newships, but you guessed that, I think.
17:56:43 <glx> Action1: Sprite #5 must be a RealSprite
17:56:43 <glx> Action1: Sprite #7 must be a RealSprite
17:56:45 <glx> Action1: Sprite #8 must be a RealSprite
17:56:48 <fjb> The newships behave a bit starnge sometimes, so I wanted to look into it. And to learn.
17:57:15 <fjb> Hm then there is really an error in that grf?
17:57:52 <fjb> I couldn't get grf2html to work with wine.
17:58:09 <Ammler> hmm, it looks also that way by me...
17:58:44 <fjb> I don't want to make a bug report, else the new DBSet will take even longer to be released...
18:00:17 <Ammler> nforenum don't output errors about it
18:00:25 <LeviathNL> what strange behavior did you see?
18:01:27 <fjb> LeviathNL: Container ships disappear about 2030 (don't know the exact date). I don't think that is intended.
18:02:17 <LeviathNL> Sprite 6 is only a thin line with some collours :s
18:02:18 <fjb> And I would like to teach the newships about some ECS goods.
18:03:55 <Belugas> confirmed, pseudo sprite 5,7,8 are just one 00 each
18:03:58 <Ammler> fjb: I would ask MB, I am pretty sure he will answer very fast
18:04:15 <Belugas> i wonder if they are not ovrwritten at some point
18:05:07 <Ammler> you guys have the grf from MBs page?
18:05:31 <LeviathNL> sprite 4 action 1 is feature trains :s
18:05:58 <glx> looks like a misinterpreted action 0
18:06:20 <LeviathNL> Mine is from coop pack. Same behavior
18:08:25 <Rubidium> maybe it's ugly but it gets the job done very efficiently
18:10:06 <fjb> Rubidium: It has very strange opcodes, looks more like a hack than like a virtual machine.
18:10:34 <Rubidium> it for sure it complex
18:10:49 <Rubidium> but it is also *very* powerfull
18:10:59 <fjb> Self modifying code is not the best solution. :-)
18:11:43 <fjb> It sure is powerfull, but it is really difficuld to create something like an assembler for it.
18:11:50 <Rubidium> most of it isn't self modifying, only one action is
18:11:50 <Belugas> well... that's the solution that has been brought, and so far no other viable solution has been proposed
18:12:22 <fjb> One self modifying opcode is bad enough...
18:16:08 <fjb> Hm, Michael doesn't have contact information at his home page. There is an "Impressum", but it lacks the important things. :-)
18:17:20 <Rubidium> look at his profile at tt-forums.net?
18:19:07 <slafs_> Are there any known bugs about network desync? I can't find any on bugs.openttd.org and my game keeps crashing :)
18:19:52 <slafs_> but all clients disconnect
18:20:03 <glx> connection lost or sync error?
18:20:21 <slafs_> dbg: [net] 'Slafs' reported an error and is closing its connection (desync error)
18:20:24 <slafs_> *** Slafs has left the game (desync error)
18:20:51 <Rubidium> create a savegame that can be loaded in a server which then desyncs clients within a few seconds of joining
18:21:07 <Rubidium> otherwise there is no way to debug it
18:21:15 <slafs_> It only happens when I give orders to a particular train
18:21:56 <fjb> Rubidium: I'm writing him a message at the german forum.
18:22:09 <slafs_> ... and only if that train is using a particular engine
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18:24:40 <fifafrazer> Yo! Why is there no forest in the subarctic environment?
18:25:51 <Rubidium> because forest only exist above the snowlevel and you have virtually no flat snowy surfaces?
18:26:31 <fifafrazer> oh.. I've set the snow level pretty high, and set the terrain to flat ;)
18:27:18 <fjb> Why do most people play at a flat terrain?
18:27:40 <Rubidium> 'cause that's 'easy'
18:28:05 <fjb> Isn't the game easy enough?
18:29:07 <Rubidium> the debug build is even easier
18:29:16 <LeviathNL> I only dislike all the small lakes when it is set to rough or higher and water on low
18:29:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11419 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1388]: articulated vehicle breaking up when making a 90 degree turn immediately after a 180 degree turn.
18:29:39 <glx> <Rubidium> the debug build is even easier <-- yeah alt-0 is nice
18:30:18 <fjb> I get rich in the first years without sheeting or easy settings...
18:30:49 <fjb> Rubidium: Road vehicles not breaking up anymore. Should look much better.
18:33:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11420 /trunk/src/ (39 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#1006]: industry closure news not properly shown when the news item pops up after the industry has been removed from the map.
18:36:50 <fifafrazer> fjb, I'm totally new to the game, so for figuring out how signals work and so on, I thought it would be easier to experiment on a flat terrain :)
18:39:39 <fjb> It was the first time that I got a casino resort when the world was created. And then the management has choosen the stupid point on the map. :-)
18:57:38 <fjb> Hm, I can build canals even if no ships are in the game yet. Is that a bug?
18:57:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
18:58:59 *** Bjarni changes topic to "0.5.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices"
19:00:04 <Bjarni> forget about the fact that it claims to be recorded at 13 PM.... I think he means 1 PM or 13 O'clock
19:01:55 * fjb hates youtube for using flash.
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19:06:45 <Bjarni> doesn't look like 1 AM on the light
19:07:23 <Bjarni> looks like the peak light hour (this is way north of the Polar circle)
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19:09:55 <LeviathNL> with the last couple of revision the casino resort get's generated almost all games, most of the time even twice.
19:10:56 <fjb> shouldn't it not be generatd only once? I have to look into the wiki again.
19:11:45 <LeviathNL> I think it should, but it is not on the wiki iirc (fore none of the tourist centres)
19:12:02 <LeviathNL> All others appear only once
19:13:42 <LeviathNL> and the japanese centre often appears on water
19:14:21 <LeviathNL> I think george has to check it is not build on shores in the grf
19:16:59 <LeviathNL> should I make a bugreport on the double tourist centres? I just confirmed it on the trunkhead and made screenshots
19:17:45 <Rubidium> LeviathNL: is most likely a duplicate of FS#1424
19:17:45 <fjb> Hm: Build > FF FF FF FFh tiles from a specific industry (specified ID) with the same layout (N=FF FF FF FFh forces only one industry of that type on the map)
19:18:36 <LeviathNL> ok, I'll add my screenshots in the comments
19:19:57 <LeviathNL> should I add my mapsize? Beleguas asked george once which he was using when he asked a question about multiple of the same tourist centre
19:21:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11421 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1431]: do not use a function that asserts when wrapping around the map's edge when you use the wrapping (and MP_VOID tiles) to determine whether the bridge can be build.
19:23:57 * Stoffe is away -[ Gone, or otherwise missing. ]- at 08:24p -[ P:On / L:On ]-
19:24:31 <hylje> Stoffe: please refrain from using public away
19:29:48 <hylje> its certainly a reference to a certain movie
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19:41:01 <DaleStan> fjb, glx, Ammller, Belugas: Those "empty action 0"s are dummy real-sprites, that will never be drawn. Its a common system, and it works, but it's wrong.
19:42:05 <LeviathNL> just placeholders while coding?
19:42:07 <DaleStan> The correct solution is to use a set with one sprite in it, instead of a set with one real and three dummies.
19:43:55 <fjb> Maybe I will learn nfo some day...
19:44:43 <DaleStan> It's like having a 4-entry table when only the third will ever be used. If that makes the others placeholders, then yes, but usually placeholders have useful information on both sides of them.
19:45:41 <fjb> Empty placeholders... :-)
19:45:58 <fjb> Ok, I will dig further into that grf.
20:03:51 <SmatZ> but I am back to write some OTTD code ;-)
20:05:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11422 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix [FS#1430]: properly support genders coming from newgrfs instead of crashing.
20:07:15 <MarkSlap> Bjarni, can you read swedish?
20:07:54 <glx> he can read a lot of languages even languages he never learnt
20:08:21 <SmatZ> fjb no... KUDr is the YAPF god ;-)
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20:12:06 <LeviathNL> stillunknown, how is work on the DS-port?
20:12:29 <stillunknown> You've got me mixed up with someone.
20:12:57 <Ammller> SmatZ: your fake in real
20:15:12 <LeviathNL> Unknown_Entity, stillunknown what is the difference :P
20:16:51 <dihedral> (?:stillu|U)nknown(?:_Entity)?
20:17:00 <dihedral> but that matches stillunknown_Entity too
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20:29:34 <titus> man I hate replacing airports to bigger ones... :>
20:29:59 <titus> don't mess with local authority!
20:30:37 <Gonozal_VIII> always attach a bus station or something first or you could have to change lots of orders...
20:30:53 <titus> and then.. I have 10 airplanes flying in....
20:31:19 <titus> keeping their all order windows opened -> skip skip skip skip :)
20:31:32 <titus> and same time trying to keep local authority happy -> win win
20:32:35 <titus> (yeah the #" international airport which was 1x1 bigger while I thought it took same area heh)
20:32:36 <Gonozal_VIII> if they all have shared orders you could remove the airport from the orders until you have changed it
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20:33:01 <Gonozal_VIII> then you don't have to skip
20:33:21 <titus> hmmz oh, I can't replae a airport with another airport building just?
20:33:46 <Gonozal_VIII> you have to demolish the old one first
20:34:00 <titus> yeah same thing annoyed with old ttd :)
20:34:13 <titus> when you got finally the bigger airports
20:34:19 <Gonozal_VIII> there is a close airport patch in chrisin
20:34:56 <Gonozal_VIII> keeps planes from landing
20:34:59 <dihedral> shared orders, remove the order then replace airport, then add the order again
20:35:18 <Gonozal_VIII> yes that's the normal way of doing that
20:35:25 <titus> bonus was that the city managed to build its own crap into the area where was old airport :)
20:35:45 <Gonozal_VIII> hehehe yes they can be very fast with that
20:35:55 <titus> then again leveling some terrain to make space -> local authors not happy :)
20:36:12 <titus> should have had bought the land
20:36:22 <dihedral> i.e. reserve space for bigger airports way in advance
20:36:35 <Gonozal_VIII> there could be a new building in the same second you remove the old airport
20:36:44 <titus> I wonder if sombody could make a patch(?) so the land gets bought in after airport gets demolished?
20:37:21 <titus> though I think its really marginal patch but anyways
20:37:36 <titus> or am I just alone with airports :)
20:38:02 <dihedral> well - i am off to bed, night everyone
20:38:19 <Gonozal_VIII> they are way too cheap anyways so it's just fair to have some work with placing them ;-)
20:39:50 *** Dark_Link^ has joined #openttd
20:41:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11423 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_commons.cpp newgrf_commons.h): -Codechange: store grfid when adding an override
20:42:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11424 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix: an override can be set only once
20:43:04 <Bjarni> <MarkSlap> Bjarni, can you read swedish? <-- funny... earlier today I talked about some Swedish short story I read a while ago.... I guess that means yes ;)
20:43:38 <Bjarni> <glx> he can read a lot of languages even languages he never learnt <-- yeah and the list of languages that I have never learned but are able to read increases all the time :D
20:43:48 <Bjarni> l33t will never be one of them though :/
20:45:09 <Bjarni> I think glx refers to the time when somebody posted Dutch wikipedia links and I read and understood them
20:45:33 <glx> or when you translated something for Sacro
20:45:46 <titus> want that I start to feed some finnish links?-)
20:46:22 <Bjarni> I really like that he screwed up once again and mixed up languages and sent me Dutch text to translate and I told him what to do
20:46:59 <Bjarni> command based language :P
20:48:07 <Gonozal_VIII> (not really rammstein)
20:48:22 <Bjarni> seriously... listen to German... it sounds like they are giving commands/orders all the time
20:48:41 <titus> you've watched too much hitler's documents
20:49:38 <Gonozal_VIII> i don't know... i think russian is more like that
20:49:53 <Bjarni> and I have yet to watch "Der Untergang" even though I recorded it when it was on TV
20:49:54 <titus> russian is pretty softy :)
20:50:23 <titus> I always think the one who speaks russian is drunk...
20:50:41 <Gonozal_VIII> austrian dialect is much softer than regular german
20:51:30 <Ammler> Mucht: is that true? ^
20:51:34 <Bjarni> now that you mention it... you guys do speak differently
20:52:05 <Mucht> at least, not the salzburg side of dialect
20:52:12 <Bjarni> but... I'm not entirely sure if it's more soft than regular German
20:52:41 <Gonozal_VIII> <-- also austrian
20:52:45 <Mucht> soft dialects are located in western and northern germany
20:53:06 <Gonozal_VIII> depends on the definition of soft...
20:53:25 <hylje> you folks are arguing about the softness of the german language
20:53:30 <Bjarni> #define soft soft_gonozal
20:53:45 <Ammler> hmm, where do we place swiss german then?
20:54:00 <Gonozal_VIII> that's not german^^
20:54:03 <Mucht> if you are refering to hitler, his 'r' is typical bavarian/austrian styled ;-)
20:54:10 <Bjarni> hylje: yeah... that would be like arguing about short Finnish words :P
20:54:37 <hylje> contary to popular belief they do exist
20:55:46 <Gonozal_VIII> i can understand swiss if i concentrate real hard... but they usually use german subtitles and such on tv
20:56:07 <Bjarni> so do non-staving Ethiopians, but it's not the same as they are common
20:57:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r11425 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix [FS#1424]: overriden industries were ignored when mapping newgrf industry type to 'real' industry type
20:58:34 * Belugas bows down and salutes glx's great work :)
21:01:48 <csaba_> I have many trouble with my wehicles
21:02:07 <Gonozal_VIII> what kind of troubles?
21:03:16 *** csaba__ has joined #openttd
21:03:30 <Ammler> swiss-german: Engelchen87
21:04:39 <csaba__> does it make sense transporting by wehicle?
21:05:43 <csaba__> i think the transporting by wehicles is bad idea
21:06:12 <Gonozal_VIII> how else would you transport stuff?
21:06:15 <csaba__> after couple of year they going to wrong
21:06:30 <glx> it's ok to grow a city with road vehicles
21:06:32 <Gonozal_VIII> ah road vehicles
21:07:01 <csaba__> i think the railroad transportion is a better solution
21:07:53 <Gonozal_VIII> depends on the vehicle sets you are using but with default you are right
21:08:42 <Gonozal_VIII> ok... not gay porn :-)
21:09:07 <Bjarni> no, it's the long, hot and steaming kind :P
21:09:33 <Belugas> the one where they make hot-dogs?
21:10:03 <Bjarni> it also reminds me of something :)
21:10:04 *** Ammler was kicked by Belugas (No youtube please)
21:10:18 *** Bjarni was kicked by Belugas (No youtyube please)
21:10:18 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
21:10:21 <Bjarni> we don't have that rule anymore :P
21:10:58 * Belugas is going to change the topic, as he finds youtube posting ennoying
21:11:13 <Gonozal_VIII> you don't have to click ;-)
21:11:28 <Gonozal_VIII> but ok.. your decision
21:11:31 <Bjarni> maybe he installed a plugin that automatically clicks all links
21:12:07 <Bjarni> in that case he were lucky that it wasn't a gay porn link :P
21:12:52 *** Belugas changes topic to "0.5.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | And please, no YouTube.com Posting"
21:13:42 * fjb hates Youtube and every website which uses proprietary formats.
21:14:29 <Bjarni> maybe we should consider that rule to make it fit our needs
21:14:29 <Gonozal_VIII> proprietary formats <-- what?
21:14:39 <Bjarni> like: no posting of spamming links
21:14:46 <Belugas> [16:13] <Gonozal_VIII> you don't have to click ;-) <--- I don't click them. But the appearance is a bit... tiresome
21:14:47 <hylje> /ignore -pattern "youtube" * PUBLICS
21:15:02 <SmatZ> Gonozal_VIII: flash animations
21:15:23 <Gonozal_VIII> flash animations are cool :D
21:16:33 <fjb> Why using Flash when there are open formats?
21:18:06 <Gonozal_VIII> that's the old everybody uses it because everybody uses it thing
21:18:48 <fjb> Not everybody uses Windows. Not everybody can see Flash, even if he wants to.
21:20:07 <Gonozal_VIII> but the majority... so they will keep making hard/software that works best with that and people will keep using it
21:21:17 <fjb> Flash doesn't work best, they only have a good marketing.
21:24:30 *** DaleStan_ has joined #openttd
21:24:36 <Bjarni> I like the linux system in the lab at uni. It lacks stuff like flash by default but we got permission to install it :)
21:24:53 <Bjarni> youtube works better with sound support though
21:25:57 <fjb> The flash plugin crashes my browser every minute, if it plays something at all.
21:26:44 <Gonozal_VIII> works fine with me
21:26:44 <Bjarni> try reinstalling or something
21:26:49 <Bjarni> it works just fine here
21:27:04 *** MarkSlap has joined #openttd
21:27:22 <fjb> And last year I was explizitly forbidden to use that plugin. Then they changed their mind and allowed it again. Stupid people.
21:27:43 <fjb> Reinstalling doesn't change anything.
21:27:44 <Bjarni> why would it be banned?
21:28:10 <fjb> The licence stated that I was forbidden to use it.
21:31:54 <fjb> Always check the licence if a new version of the player or plugin gets released.
21:33:05 <Sacro> what is wrong with my dutch?
21:33:23 <fjb> The same as with mine? :-)
21:33:52 <Bjarni> you need me to translate for you
21:35:01 <SmatZ> fjb: how was it forbidden? like 'anyone who uses nick fjb is forbidden to use this SOFTWARE' ?
21:35:27 <Sacro> Jeg haver sgu en stor kartoffel i min hals
21:36:06 <Gonozal_VIII> store potatoes in the neck?
21:36:23 <Bjarni> well at one time a licence for a compiler stated that you were not allowed to install it on a computer with a specific compiler from another company
21:36:25 <Sacro> Må jeg smage dine lakrisser
21:37:01 <fjb> No, it was only allowed to use it on certain listed operating systems.
21:37:07 <Bjarni> you like languages... figure out what it means and why I said it :P
21:37:22 <Sacro> (Can I taste some of your licorices?) Migth be good to use if your hungry, but remember: Danish licorices are the strongest in the world! if you eat more that 4 you will die instantly!!!
21:38:28 <Bjarni> I would likely die at the first one :s
21:38:47 <Bjarni> I'm not into anything like that
21:39:57 <SmatZ> I didn't know Dutch is spoken in the Netherlands
21:40:31 <Bjarni> they speak Netherlandish
21:40:42 <Bjarni> Dutch is spoken in Dutchia
21:40:46 <SmatZ> then Google is broken - 'nl' is paired with 'Dutch'
21:40:47 <Bjarni> don't you know anything? :P
21:41:04 <SmatZ> and doesn't translate Sacro's text...
21:41:21 <Bjarni> that's because he tried to write something in Danish
21:41:50 <SmatZ> ah... so it wasn't Dutch
21:42:41 *** skidd13 has joined #openttd
21:42:43 <Bjarni> no. Sacro tries to be a pervert in many languages
21:47:33 <Bjarni> Sacro stopped talking after I called him hentai
21:47:44 <Bjarni> he is likely looking at tentacle porn or something right now
21:48:22 <Gonozal_VIII> i wonder why there is a different name for every country in every language...
21:49:12 <fjb> Because the languages are different? :-P
21:49:16 <Bjarni> specially I wonder why we call Japan for Japan
21:49:26 <Bjarni> most if not all European languages do that
21:49:36 <Bjarni> but it's a European name
21:49:58 <Bjarni> it's named "Nihon" in Japanese
21:50:12 <Gonozal_VIII> they could simplidy it a bit so that they are able to say it without breaking their tonges but most names are entirely different
21:50:16 <Bjarni> I fail to connect those two names
21:50:33 <Gonozal_VIII> i fail to connect austria and sterreich
21:50:33 <Bjarni> yeah like the example I just wrote
21:51:34 <Bjarni> We call it Østrig which is basically just a word by word translation of Österreich
21:52:02 <Bjarni> Germany is a screwed up name though
21:52:18 <Bjarni> I have yet to find two languages where it's named the same
21:52:20 <Gonozal_VIII> yes.. has nothing to do with deutschland
21:52:21 <fjb> Do you know the game "Stille Post"? (I don't know how it is called in english).
21:52:53 <Gonozal_VIII> obviously because it's german...
21:52:59 <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> yes.. has nothing to do with deutschland <-- to make it even more fun, we call it "Tyskland"
21:53:16 <fjb> When a word is not written but spread by mouth, over a long time and distance, it just changes.
21:53:45 <Sacro> Kde je tu nejbližší bordel?
21:53:52 <skidd13> Gonozal_VIII: It's easy the name is different because the foregin countries call the land by the tribe which is next to them
21:53:52 <skidd13> Example: Deutschland; Germany -> "Die Germanen"; Allemagna (I hope I spellt the italian right) -> The Allemannen
21:54:12 <Bjarni> Germany is based on Germania, the Roman word for the area in question. Tyskland is actually the name of the northern part of Germany (the part closest to Denmark)
21:54:39 <fjb> That much. Just take a bunch of people. Tell a word to one of them without the others hearing it. Then one should tell it to the other. And then ask the last one what he has benn told. :-)
21:54:50 <Bjarni> Germany is a collection of countries and different countries has given the name of the combined country in different languages
21:55:54 <Bjarni> Sacro: don't talk about your perversions in here and please don't use prostitutes for those sick ideas. They are living beings too you know
21:56:18 <Bjarni> I don't know the origin of the word "Deutschland" though
21:56:46 <Gonozal_VIII> what is the origin?
21:57:04 <Gonozal_VIII> i somehow read "i don't like..."
21:57:34 <Bjarni> it's in German so odds are that I don't :P
21:58:40 <Gonozal_VIII> maybe the common language in the parts was called deutsch before the country and they named it after that...
21:58:55 <Gonozal_VIII> but i don't know
21:59:15 <Gonozal_VIII> sterreich has geographic reasons
21:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> "Teutonen" was a german tribe most likely
22:00:19 <Gonozal_VIII> [22:59:52] Bartleby: Der Begriff deutsch leitet sich vom althochdeutschen theodisk, diutisk ab, was ursprnglich diejenigen, die die Volkssprache sprechen (germanisch theoda, Volk) bedeutete, im Gegensatz zu denen die des Lateinischen mchtig waren.
22:00:25 <skidd13> Bjarni: The word "Deutsch" commes from the medieval word "by the people"
22:01:35 <LeviathNL> people in the Netherlands where also called Duits
22:01:43 <Gonozal_VIII> so deutsch means: "can't speak latin"^^
22:03:21 <LeviathNL> even our national anthem states we're German (sort of)
22:04:17 <Gonozal_VIII> with all that global warming and ice caps melting you will have to move there soon anyways ;-)
22:04:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a language called "pennsylvania dutch", which is more or less a german dialect
22:05:00 <Sacro> "...ik zou jou wel eens hebben willen zien staan durven blijven staan kijken."
22:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a senseless aggrivation of verbs... but my dutch is weak :p
22:06:17 <Rubidium> now the real question: Sacro, what does that mean?
22:06:33 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's actually correct, though *very* hard to read ;)
22:06:41 <Bjarni> Rubidium: he has no idea.... he is just copy pasting stuff
22:06:53 <Gonozal_VIII> but it does read like all verbs
22:07:14 <Sacro> "...if i could have drunk beer"
22:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> well, this overzealous verb conglomeration is often a joke in german ;)
22:07:57 * Sacro ponders... # Weet je wat ik wil, een opblaaskrokodil.
22:08:15 <ln-> pardon, bent u 'n romulaan?
22:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> ln-: at least you can sustain conversations if you accidently happen to run by a star trek convention in the netherlands ;)
22:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Gonozal_VIII: "kölsch" is not exactly what i would classify "beer" :p
22:10:33 <Gonozal_VIII> i thought that crocodile thing was klsch...
22:11:19 <Eddi|zuHause> well, kölsch and dutch are quite closely related :p
22:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> closer than saxon and dutch anyway ;)
22:13:35 <Gonozal_VIII> i'm not very good with all those dialects
22:14:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you are austrian :p
22:14:42 <Gonozal_VIII> our dialect is much better :-)^^
22:21:42 <spark_> is there a way how to destroy road in the city ?
22:22:02 <spark_> i need to place bigger airport
22:22:11 <LeviathNL> the government needs to like you enough
22:22:17 <Gonozal_VIII> plant some trees then they will like you more
22:22:24 <spark_> i have outstanding rating
22:22:37 <spark_> but the road is "closed"
22:22:42 <Gonozal_VIII> ok.. there is a patch setting for that
22:22:45 <spark_> it's made a circle from it
22:22:48 <LeviathNL> click on the town name and than local authority to see how they like you
22:22:51 <spark_> or it doesn't matter ?
22:23:42 <Gonozal_VIII> configure patches, construction tab, allow removal of more town-owned roads
22:23:58 <spark_> ah it's working thanks
22:25:53 <spark_> now then don't like me very much :D
22:26:11 <spark_> i'm just "very good" :)
22:26:58 <spark_> hmm and is there a way how to change old vehicles ? something authomated ..
22:27:07 <spark_> like "replace vehicles" for new types
22:27:22 <LeviathNL> look in the patch options under vehicles
22:28:01 <spark_> thanks guys very very much ;)
22:28:21 <Gonozal_VIII> open the vehicle list and select it from the "manage list" dropdown
22:28:23 <spark_> are there t-shirts of openttd ?
22:28:51 <spark_> that replace is only for new types
22:29:27 <Gonozal_VIII> ah... you wanted old to new same type ok then
22:29:35 <Rubidium> autorenew == replace vehicle with same type, autoreplace == replace vehicle with other type
22:34:29 <spark_> btw, when the game ends ?
22:34:53 <Gonozal_VIII> you get a screen in 2051
22:36:13 <Gonozal_VIII> no new inventions after that, no... i think even with newgrfs there is nothing new
22:37:30 *** ThePizzaKing has joined #openttd
22:43:13 * lolman wanders into #openttd for the first time in a while
22:44:24 <LeviathNL> in unmovable_map.h; IsStatueTile and IsStatue can't you combine these 2 functions?
22:45:25 <Rubidium> calling IsStatueTile is a waste of resources when you already are sure it is an unmovable tile
22:45:33 <glx> one asserts, the other one don't IIRC
22:45:39 <Rubidium> furthermore IsStatueTile will call IsStatue
22:47:01 <Sacro> Hoe dichter bij nul, hoe strakker om de lul:
22:47:13 <Sacro> lolman: i am teaching dutch
22:47:38 <lolman> Sacro, why not get people that are actually Dutch to do that?
22:47:54 <Sacro> lolman: cos uncyclopedia is perfectly fine
22:48:26 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Rubidium
22:48:31 *** Rubidium sets mode: +b *!*Sacro@*.karoo.KCOM.COM
22:48:31 *** Sacro was kicked by Rubidium (Sacro)
22:48:39 *** Rubidium sets mode: -o Rubidium
22:49:22 <lolman> Bjarni, I was in Hull a few days ago :P
22:49:50 <lolman> And this IRC connection is running through Hull too...
22:50:19 * Bjarni expects lolman to time out any minute
22:50:21 <LeviathNL> correct me if I'm wrong but IsStatue is only called by IsStatueTile. Which checks before calling IsStatue if IsTileType(t, MP_UNMOVABLE)... why the assertion?
22:50:36 <Rubidium> to make sure IsStatue isn't called inappropriately
22:50:39 <lolman> Bjarni, I probably will, knowing how reliable KCOM are
22:50:59 <Rubidium> and you may not know it, but with release builds assertions are turned off
22:51:04 <Gonozal_VIII> remove isstatue?
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22:52:32 <LeviathNL> I did not know :) and i just learned what a assertion is but if you merge it there is no IsStatue so it can't be called (inappropriately). (Sorry if I'm annoying, just trying to understand)
22:53:08 <Rubidium> what's the sense in checking whether a tile is 'unmovable' when you already know that?
22:53:21 <Rubidium> the same thing happens in much more places
22:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> <Gonozal_VIII> why that now? <- unsuitible profanity i assume
22:56:33 <Gonozal_VIII> i couldn't understand what it was... was it that bad?
22:57:03 <LeviathNL> I still fail to see the difference between return IsTileType(t, MP_UNMOVABLE) && IsStatue(t); and return IsTileType(t, MP_UNMOVABLE) && (GetUnmovableType(t) == UNMOVABLE_STATUE); But that is my problem and I'll try to figure it out myself (thank for the attempt to explain :))
22:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need to understand that, it's uncyclopedia :p
22:58:04 <Rubidium> LeviathNL: it's just that all the IsXXXTile(t) functions are IsTileType(t, MP_Y) && IsXXX(t)
23:00:47 <LeviathNL> oh, it's just more clear to keep them all the same
23:02:40 <Gonozal_VIII> why not merge all of them into something like getTileType(t) ?
23:03:13 <LeviathNL> little typo in the comment on line 194; transmitter should be lighthouse.
23:05:25 <LeviathNL> tiletype can for instance be MP_UNMOVABLE but this can be transmitters, lighthouses, statues etc etc you also need to check if this is right (I think)
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23:11:18 <SmatZ> skidd13: I just wanted to say - with some algorithms (probably the one with uint x = 0 to 31) to FindFirstBit will be compiled as one instruction, BSF.. so it is the fastest solution in one instruction
23:14:02 <Rubidium> still depends on how long the instruction takes
23:15:07 <Rubidium> but then again, it's likely that a bsf instruction is cheaper than jumps, compares and shifts
23:15:20 <Rubidium> although you never know
23:16:27 <SmatZ> thats true... bsf is rather "expensive" instruction, but given how many instructions and branches you save...
23:16:40 <ln-> has someone travelled on the eurostar?
23:17:03 <Rubidium> at least the Queen of England IIRC
23:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny how people always ask the wrong questions :p
23:18:37 <SmatZ> from AMD64 optimization guide: BSF takes 8 ticks...
23:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> jumps usually kill the pipeline...
23:19:36 <SmatZ> simple instructions are also more likely to be paired
23:19:43 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Not with jump prediction...
23:19:47 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: yes... but you do not have to use jumps
23:19:55 <Rubidium> fjb: also with jump prediction
23:20:07 <Rubidium> as the word says, it's a prediction
23:20:19 <SmatZ> there is conditional instruction execution, laki conditional move
23:20:29 <fjb> Modern processors calculate both possible branches ahead.
23:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: that is still half a wasted pipeline
23:20:55 <SmatZ> simple rule - branch bacward is likely to be taken, branch forward is likely not to be taken... but there are also some branch caches
23:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: yeah, but you also need time to determine wether a branch is forward or backward
23:22:25 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: it can be done during instruction decode
23:23:08 <SmatZ> if it has immediate address, not computed during execution
23:23:58 *** gono_ping_timeout is now known as Gonozal_VIII
23:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> also, this assumes the compiler does some kind of "sane" ordering of basic blocks
23:25:11 <SmatZ> or the programmer is aware of all these things
23:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (a basic block is a sequence of data flow that ends with a jump)
23:25:46 <skidd13> SmatZ: The current way of implementation (3 more or less different functions) is the fastest. But I'm working on the cleanup of the whole thing to group the stuff togehter in math_func.h ;)
23:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> an abstract jump to one or more locations, the resulting code can have more or less jumps
23:26:43 <SmatZ> skidd13: what about FindFirstBit2x64? would it be problem if it found a bit set outside the first 6 bits of both bytes?
23:28:02 <Rubidium> would generally indicate something went wrong somewhere; read as: I don't think those bits are used when FindFirstBit is going to be done.
23:28:11 <skidd13> The input of the functions do not have any other bits than the first 6 and the first 6 << 8 set.
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23:44:28 <skidd13> SmatZ: What about a mix of lookup-table and calculation? Lookup if (value & 0x3F) else calculation?
23:45:58 <SmatZ> skidd13: I wonder why the simplest solution is not the fastest
23:46:27 <SmatZ> you may try it, but I am not sure if it will help
23:47:13 <SmatZ> while((x & (1U << pos)) == 0) { pos++; }
23:48:15 <skidd13> I know. This one is more or less a fast log2(int x) implementation ;)
23:56:04 <skidd13> SmatZ: The reason why the complex function is faster should be the better convergence.
continue to next day ⏵
