IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-10-18
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00:08:17 <Ailure> are bricks usually transported by air?
00:08:35 <Ailure> I'm so considering to transport goods by air, expect the goods is from a brickworks
00:11:35 <SmatZ> aircrafts have very low cargo capacity :-/
00:13:07 <Ailure> they usually have a somewhat decent capacity with goods
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01:24:32 <DaleStan> <Rubidium> DaleStan: can we rename NewGRF to XGRF? Just so it is more generic? <-- My sarcasm detector is failing to register. Please tell me you just broke it, and a new one is on its way.
01:25:14 <DaleStan> <Belugas> problem, though, is that i want to add variable ... A1, but... <-- What new information are you trying to provide?
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02:16:56 <Nia-Teppelin> So uh, Sorry for just bustinin here and asking a question..
02:17:04 <Nia-Teppelin> Is there a way to bring AI into multiplay games?
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02:19:55 <Belugas_Gone> 04:25:14 < DaleStan> <Belugas> problem, though, is that i want to add variable ... A1, but... <-- What new information are you trying to provide?
02:20:06 <Belugas_Gone> Dalestan : the version of OTTD
02:20:25 <DaleStan> Is it possible to do that in a single flat number?
02:20:47 <DaleStan> Or are you just doing "version" and not "revision"?
02:21:29 <Belugas_Gone> yes, revision too
02:21:41 <Belugas_Gone> i have the scheme somewhere...
02:21:44 <Belugas_Gone> give me a minute
02:23:54 <Belugas_Gone> The NewGRF revision of OTTD:
02:23:54 <Belugas_Gone> 28-31 major version
02:23:54 <Belugas_Gone> 24-27 minor version
02:23:55 <Belugas_Gone> 19 1 if it is a release, 0 if it is not.
02:23:57 <Belugas_Gone> 0-18 revision number; 0 for releases and when the revision is unknown.
02:24:33 <Belugas_Gone> on our side, it willbe something like
02:24:40 <Belugas_Gone> _openttd_newgrf_version = 0 << 28 | 6 << 24 | 0 << 20 | 0 << 19 | @@REVISION@@ & ((1 << 19) - 1);
02:25:26 <Belugas_Gone> it is in fact the specs Rubidium wrote, but it has not yet been implemented
02:26:41 <Belugas_Gone> the pendant of var 8B, in fact
02:27:35 <DaleStan> How do you determine whether you're looking at a build of newgrf_ports, which supports Newairports, or trunk, which does not?
02:29:41 <DaleStan> Or is that the job of some other test?
02:29:44 <Belugas_Gone> i'm not totally convinced branches should be taken into account regarding that
02:30:02 <Belugas_Gone> no other test planned, from what i recall
02:30:30 <Belugas_Gone> anyway, the idea of a branch is to be merged to trunk one day or the other
02:32:37 <Belugas_Gone> but i guess 1 or 2 of the 19 bits of revision number could be used to indicate a branch, if ever it is required, which is not a bad idea, after thoughs
02:32:52 <Belugas_Gone> as to indicate which branch...
02:43:12 <DaleStan> As I see it, the version number is only useful if it can be used to determine the support for the vast majority of @FEATURES, and preferably all. If newairports and trunk use the same range, then this becomes rather difficult, unless some other test is available. Of course, Patch would probably always report either 0 or -1 for A1.
02:44:14 <DaleStan> So the exact implementation in Open is more a matter of making it useful to GRF coders, not Patch coders.
02:46:20 <Belugas_Gone> indeed. Unless a new feature that Ottd brough up (not the case already, but it might be) would be implemented in Patch, as it is the case right now (but the other way around)
02:46:34 <Belugas_Gone> so this is why i was checking for a free variable spot,
02:46:55 <Belugas_Gone> and got a bit... mixed up :)
02:51:20 <Belugas_Gone> and until tomorrow
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02:52:17 <DaleStan> Belugas: A1/21 is indeed free.
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07:33:31 <dihedral|away> thanks TrueBrain
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08:27:06 <dihedral|work> does squirrel thread?
08:28:12 <TrueBrain> now that is a clear english sentence indeed
08:28:21 <TrueBrain> depends on what you ask :)
08:29:06 <dihedral|work> would it be possible to let squirrel do what autopilot does?
08:29:31 <TrueBrain> depends on what you think autopilot does
08:29:36 <TrueBrain> really, you questions couldn't be more vague
08:34:46 <dihedral|work> let me be as specific as possible
08:34:54 <dihedral|work> as to what i am thinking :-)
08:35:13 <dihedral|work> autopilot has the ability to act as some sort of irc bot
08:35:25 <dihedral|work> or more like a bridge to irc
08:35:35 <dihedral|work> if squirrel threads
08:35:50 <dihedral|work> one thread could connect to irc and keep that connection live
08:36:07 <dihedral|work> if squirrel has the ability to perform such actions that is
08:36:31 <TrueBrain> okay, so you want to know if Squirrel can make its own parallel threads. No, it can not.
08:36:32 <dihedral|work> it could be used to maintain a black / white list based on other data
08:36:52 <TrueBrain> nevertheless, it doesn't need to, to do what you want
08:36:57 <TrueBrain> but that is all in the future anyway
08:37:07 <dihedral|work> so squirrel processing time is actually openttd processing time
08:37:21 <TrueBrain> of course, as it is part of OpenTTD
08:37:32 <dihedral|work> that is why i asked about the threads :-)
08:38:02 <TrueBrain> but AIs run in threads, but they are serial threads, not parallel
08:38:33 <dihedral|work> that means, as long as the nut script is running, openttd cannot?
08:39:38 <dihedral|work> so if one builds some hungy nut script... openttd will lag?
08:40:15 <dihedral|work> so an ai needs to run in it's own openttd instance?
08:41:10 <dihedral|work> but i could not play 'with' the ai in one game
08:41:53 <dihedral|work> say i start openttd, load a nut script so i have a specific ai
08:42:06 <dihedral|work> could i play in that same game?
08:42:24 <dihedral|work> or, as the nut script is threaded serially and not parallel
08:42:28 <TrueBrain> you can even start up to 7 AIs at the same time
08:42:55 <dihedral|work> if it's serial threading
08:43:02 <TrueBrain> why would you think a serial thread would block till the end of execution of a thing as a script
08:43:10 <dihedral|work> then i would have to wait for the ai to do it's 'thing'
08:43:16 <TrueBrain> you think it would be useful to put something in a thread, that keeps running till the end of its live from the start?
08:43:23 <TrueBrain> sounds like a good waste of serial thrading :)
08:44:00 <TrueBrain> now consider the simple solution, where the serial thread gives back its control every time a command is issued outside the thread
08:44:17 <TrueBrain> basicly, every DoCommand 'pauses' the serial thread for a moment
08:44:29 <TrueBrain> giving back control to the main thread
08:44:43 <dihedral|work> but that could have influence on the length of a tick, no?
08:44:49 <TrueBrain> so unless you make long long for loops calculating things, openttd won't lag
08:45:24 <TrueBrain> the only way to increase the length of a tick, is to make scripts work longer than.. say on an average game the gamelogic takes 10ms, you have say 7 AIs, so that is:
08:45:28 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 3.28571428571
08:45:35 <TrueBrain> They have to work longer than 3.2ms
08:45:37 <dihedral|work> would it be spossible to 'also' give squirrel the ability to do parallel threading?
08:46:02 <TrueBrain> technicly, of course, but it won't be done for OpenTTD in the longest time I hope
08:46:20 <dihedral|work> i mean - support both, for 2 different purposes
08:46:31 <TrueBrain> not going to happen, is my best guess
08:46:57 <TrueBrain> well, simple reason: parallel threads will be limited to.. what... 1 API function
08:47:00 <TrueBrain> which would be.. STOP
08:47:13 <dihedral|work> let me rephrase that
08:47:32 <dihedral|work> the 2 different purposes being, ai and console :-)
08:47:48 <dihedral|work> so when at some point squirrel becomes the console language
08:48:01 <dihedral|work> when writing a nut script, choose wether parallel or serial
08:48:09 <dihedral|work> (for the console that would be)
08:48:19 <TrueBrain> what I said above goes for any SQ piece where-ever and when-ever in the code
08:48:35 <TrueBrain> parallel threading won't happen in OpenTTD any time soon
08:48:46 <TrueBrain> even the TGP status thingy isn't parallel
08:48:52 * dihedral|work was not thinking of "soon" :-P
08:49:06 <TrueBrain> if I say any time soon, I mean like in the next 3 years :p
08:49:10 <TrueBrain> landscape generator
08:50:38 <TrueBrain> dihedral|work: OpenTTD is NOT thread-safe, in any way
08:50:47 <TrueBrain> therefor, you can't have 2 things doing things in the game at the same time
08:50:52 <TrueBrain> console does things in the game
08:50:58 <TrueBrain> cases race-conditions
08:51:11 * dihedral|work understands that
08:51:16 <TrueBrain> the only way to make OpenTTD thread safe, is a long long long long long long long long
08:51:20 <TrueBrain> did I say: long long already?
08:51:36 <dihedral|work> you forgot to mention how long it would be...
08:51:58 <TrueBrain> best way of approach would be microthreads, but that requires making classes of all code, and no class can write directly into an other class
08:52:11 <TrueBrain> (so 1 class would be: _map, with tons of accessors (which we in fact already have))
09:17:45 <gfldex> i was looking for a game that is challenging, fun to play in a team and doesnt take more then one hour per day
09:18:14 <gfldex> all i came up with was VGAPlanets, what we used to play about 15 years ago over BBS
09:19:00 <gfldex> takes more then 1 hour per day
09:19:09 <gfldex> and you cant really play it in a team yet
09:19:13 <TrueBrain> depends.. if you puase after an hour :)
09:19:35 <gfldex> can you share money and stuff?
09:19:42 <TrueBrain> you can join 1 company
09:19:54 <Ammler> we do that all the time at #openttdcoop
09:20:10 <gfldex> and do you stop after 1 hour?
09:20:19 <TrueBrain> you can pause and continue later, sure, why not
09:20:28 <Ammler> sometimes after half an hour
09:20:52 <Ammler> but others might play forward then...
09:20:55 <TrueBrain> but okay, there are more ideal games for team-to-team :p
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09:21:21 <TrueBrain> Quake? Long? Lol :p
09:21:27 <TrueBrain> my average match length if 10 minutes :p
09:22:01 <TrueBrain> and in my case also: EVE: Online
09:22:06 <TrueBrain> can't play that game for more than an hour
09:22:19 <TrueBrain> (because of the boring factor)
09:22:20 <gfldex> i used to play 16 hours in one go at lan parties
09:22:34 <TrueBrain> sure, if you like you can play as long as you want
09:22:35 <gfldex> quake does for sure take more then one hour
09:22:42 <TrueBrain> but then all games don't fit your description
09:22:48 <gfldex> the point is that i want to force myself to play less
09:22:52 <TrueBrain> as you can always play them for a long long time
09:23:01 <TrueBrain> set a power-interupter on your PC
09:23:11 <Ammler> gfldex: then you should look for worst game
09:23:16 <gfldex> and VGAPlanets got a tern every 2nd day so there was simply no reason to play more :)
09:23:21 <Ammler> you are wrong here then...
09:23:35 <TrueBrain> go play chess via email
09:24:55 * dihedral|work sends A2 => C3 to TrueBrain
09:25:14 <gfldex> i got so depressed that i started to reimplement VGAPlanets
09:25:37 <gfldex> now i code 10 hours a day and still waste a lot time
09:25:39 * dihedral|work might have confused where numbers and chars are located on a chess board
09:26:15 * dihedral|work corrects is last statement, to b1 => c3
09:26:30 <Ailure> and oh yeah, just wanted to mention something funny before going to bed
09:26:59 <Ailure> Gotta love how the same keyboard command can differ alot between games
09:27:18 <Ailure> Ctrl+S is screenshot in openTTD
09:27:23 <Ailure> but save game in Simcity4
09:27:34 <Ailure> I nearly ruined a Simcity4 savegame that way
09:27:36 <gfldex> you got a lot screenshots, right?
09:27:50 <Ailure> I saved when I thought I was taking a screenshot
09:27:51 <TrueBrain> Ailure: don't play simcity, problem solved :)
09:28:06 <Ailure> but Simcity 4: Rush hour is addicting
09:28:12 <TrueBrain> or ask simcity if they can give a warning when an OpenTTD users plays SimCity, on CTRL+S keypress
09:28:27 <gfldex> so you wanted to keep nice pics of that fat disaster?
09:28:59 <dihedral|work> fixes when selling loc and rebuying it
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09:33:14 <Brandinger> i've got a little question
09:33:48 <Brandinger> ...considering the funtionality of the transfer-button when giving orders to vehicels
09:35:48 <Brandinger> i connected 2 cities for passernger transfer. when i just gave normal goto-orders without any load/unload/transfer he took as much people from one destination and the other way. i got the money and the people walked away.
09:36:48 <Brandinger> then i changed the order to transfer (german "Umladen und beladen"). he throuh everybody out of the train, i got the money but the people stayed at the station
09:37:31 <Brandinger> after some time i got 3000 people waiting at the station because they did not wanted to finish their journey :)
09:37:46 <TrueBrain> transfer in general does that exactly that: move things from one station to the other, but do not unload them
09:37:52 <TrueBrain> useful if you want to bring them even futher
09:38:13 <Brandinger> but i got the money for the transportation
09:38:21 <TrueBrain> then don't transfer them
09:38:42 <Brandinger> yeah thats what i did not understood ^^
09:39:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> Brandinger: if you use transfer, you do not get any money, just an estimation how much money you would get if you unloaded them there
09:39:09 <TrueBrain> transfer means: pick up at A, bring to B but don't get money (transfer). Someone else picks up at B, brings them to C (non-transfer), and everyone gets money
09:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's why the money is not green
09:40:33 <dihedral|work> Bandinger "umladen" != "ausladen"
09:43:00 <Brandinger> one more question :) how did the trick work to make two different stations one with space in between?
09:44:01 <Brandinger> to make one station with train and airport that are not touching directly
09:44:13 <gfldex> you make one big station with a connection
09:44:27 <gfldex> and then remove the connection with the bulldoze icon thingy
09:44:48 <gfldex> like you would remove a signal without touching the track
09:46:14 <Brandinger> ok, thanks alot :)
09:46:23 <Brandinger> i think that will help
09:47:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> pay attention, bulldozing a train station tile removes the entire station
09:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> actually, that's the dynamite
09:47:50 <Brandinger> yep so i would use bus-stations for build the connection, right?
09:47:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> early morning...
09:48:02 <gfldex> you can but you dont have to
09:48:22 <gfldex> if you use the single tile paint thingy to drag stations across your screen
09:48:27 <gfldex> you can just start to paint away
09:48:35 <gfldex> and then remove the bits you dont like
09:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can do that, but hitting the "build station" button, and then the "bulldozer" button on the right (like you do with rails) should also work
09:49:08 <gfldex> isnt there a wiki page with screenshots and all?
09:53:11 <Brandinger> alright, thx again and byebye :)
10:06:39 <dihedral|work> TrueBrain: would there be any outlook on the possiblility tcp or udp rcon patckets that will not require one to be a client to the game?
10:12:05 <TrueBrain> depends if someone programs it :p
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10:21:20 <dihedral|work> well - just adding packet types for udp should be simple enough
10:21:51 <dihedral|work> do i not need a handshake for tcp?
10:22:28 <TrueBrain> tcp handshakes the OS takes care of for you :p
10:22:50 <TrueBrain> but it should be telnet alike
10:22:56 <TrueBrain> udp is too insecure for something like this
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10:26:07 <dihedral|work> i'll see what i can do ;-)
10:27:18 <gfldex> if you leave your lan and enter the wild ocean that is the internet you will have to deal with 3% packet loss all the time
10:27:36 <gfldex> if you got asymetric lines with load it can get a lot higher
10:28:48 <dihedral|work> yes, aint all that nice :-)
10:28:59 <dihedral|work> i hate lost packets
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10:42:42 <dihedral|work> clients on my nightly are desyncing a lot when giving train orders to new trains...
10:43:06 <dihedral|work> 'a lot' meaning when train orders are being given it may occure :-)
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10:52:20 <dihedral|work> TrueBrain: would that rcon tcp connection need to be to another port?
10:52:33 <dihedral|work> or would a 'packet type' be sufficient to dertermin that
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10:52:51 * dihedral|work greets boekabart
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10:52:59 <dihedral|work> just in time :-P
10:57:09 <TrueBrain> dihedral|work: other port, of course
10:57:27 <TrueBrain> rcon should be text-based
10:59:28 <dihedral|work> another question, just to help me understand...
10:59:38 <dihedral|work> other games tend to use udp for their rcon protocol
10:59:54 <dihedral|work> why then use tcp - i mean - there must be a reason why they use udp...
11:00:04 <TrueBrain> I know zero games who do
11:00:28 <dihedral|work> and why on earth do you find _UDP_ web interfaces to the rcon
11:00:43 <dihedral|work> q3 uses udp also
11:00:46 <TrueBrain> hl uses udp for gaming
11:00:52 <TrueBrain> but server control is tcp
11:01:20 <TrueBrain> (as you can do it via telnet too)
11:03:32 <dihedral|work> thanks TrueBrain
11:04:55 <TrueBrain> dihedral|work: you use UDP if it doesn't matter if the other end receives your packet
11:04:58 <TrueBrain> you use TCP when it does matter
11:05:01 <TrueBrain> Rcon -> does matter
11:05:06 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD Game Logic -> does matter
11:05:12 <TrueBrain> HL Game Logic -> doesn't matter
11:05:31 <TrueBrain> (in HL you don't care if you miss 1 update package of a persons position)
11:06:15 <dihedral|work> yes - does make sense :-)
11:12:19 <gfldex> q3 handles the packet lost "by hand"
11:12:36 <gfldex> so they reimplement the handshake/resend semantics of tcp
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11:30:13 <Kilinich> hi, is here someone who try write OpenTTD AI ?
11:30:25 <TrueBrain> search wiki for NoAI
11:31:13 <Kilinich> and realize that no AIRail clall in framework
11:31:30 <TrueBrain> dihedral|work: didn't I told you? :)
11:31:46 <TrueBrain> Kilinich: first try to make a good AI in Road, then come back to us about Rail
11:32:56 <dihedral|work> dont start with the most complicated :-P
11:32:59 <Kilinich> what isn't related things. ok.
11:33:51 <Kilinich> imagine that I did it. and then come back... -) so...
11:34:07 <Kilinich> let's talk about rail
11:34:20 <TrueBrain> someone still needs to code it
11:34:47 <TrueBrain> but because there is little enthoisasme in building roadAIs for example, my spirit of doing so is a bit low lately ;)
11:35:18 <dihedral|work> TrueBrain: is there AI API stuff for ships?
11:35:32 <Kilinich> what is the problem with class AIRail ? why AIRoad done and it isn't?
11:36:00 <dihedral|work> for ships, can i find out if a ship can atall get from dock A to dock B?
11:36:01 <TrueBrain> so show me a good RoadAI, and I make Rails for you :)
11:36:17 <TrueBrain> no pathfinding in API yet, for any class
11:36:38 <dihedral|work> would that be a lot of work to implement?
11:36:45 <Kilinich> I don't ask for pathfinding i wan builr rails -)
11:36:52 <TrueBrain> base already is there for PFs, so no
11:36:56 <dihedral|work> Kilinich: I am asking about ships
11:36:59 <TrueBrain> Kilinich: I was tlaking to dihedral|work :)
11:37:18 <TrueBrain> Anyway, Kilinich, make me a good RoadAI, I make you Rail support, and I am pretty serious :)
11:37:45 <dihedral|work> that means, post the road ai somewhere so it can be tested :-)
11:38:13 <dihedral|work> perhaps start a new thread in tt-forums to get others more enthusiastic about it too
11:40:00 <dihedral|work> are there some sort of 'nightly' builds for the noai branch?
11:40:32 <dihedral|work> i just dont have the options to build on windows
11:40:42 <dihedral|work> and - dont like the thought of it either
11:41:07 <Kilinich> i start my IA already, trying some stuff, i think week-two and i can show it.
11:41:09 <TrueBrain> for all our branches we always supply binaries
11:41:18 <TrueBrain> Kilinich: would be awesome :)
11:41:35 <Rubidium> Kilinich: there were also a lot of people who said they were going to make a road AI when it would be possible. As far as I remember there are still no road AIs, which made us a little hesistant to add more effort for something that nobody was going to use.
11:42:39 <dihedral|work> the only thing i could think of would be to use the ai on a multiplayer from my client...
11:42:52 <dihedral|work> to start the company making some cash before i then take over :-P
11:42:55 <TrueBrain> dihedral|work: it is possible to battle AIs against eachother :)
11:43:17 <dihedral|work> is the ai aware of patch settings/
11:43:39 <dihedral|work> that might be a good thing too
11:43:58 <dihedral|work> add it to the todo list
11:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> rewrite the difficulty settings if you're at it ;)
11:44:16 <dihedral|work> 2 different things
11:45:11 <Kilinich> TrueBrain: that criteria of good Road ai? is there example of what is done?
11:45:15 <dihedral|work> but making the ai aware of intrest rates, subsity multiplyer, breakdowns, 90degree turns for trains, etc could be very important
11:46:11 <Kilinich> making some profit easy, hard to do something compare to people
11:46:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> dihedral|work: yeah, but so is "allow turning in stations"
11:46:38 <TrueBrain> Kilinich: let's say, it can survive for 10 years :)
11:46:46 <Kilinich> lanscaping is free am i right?
11:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> and accessing difficlty settings is probably difficult
11:47:05 <TrueBrain> it can only do what real players do
11:47:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean more difficult than patch settings
11:47:58 <Kilinich> TrueBrain, have you ICQ?
11:48:09 <TrueBrain> nope, but I do have IRC!
11:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> can i have that, too?
11:48:30 <Kilinich> and you are always here?
11:48:39 <TrueBrain> always.. hmm.. yes :p
11:49:18 <TrueBrain> nothing to be sorry about :p
11:49:38 <SpComb> I don't have an ICQ account, but I'm on MSN whenever my IRC client is up, which it has been for 173 days now
11:50:44 <Kilinich> TrueBrain: what common advice for road AI you have?
11:51:05 <TrueBrain> read some good AI documentation
11:51:33 <TrueBrain> I myself am pretty bad in AIs :p
11:52:09 <Kilinich> I myself a good AI -)
11:52:59 <Kilinich> and translate to squirrel
11:54:08 <TrueBrain> squirrel is almost equal to C++, so if you know that, you should be fone
12:09:53 <dihedral|work> TrueBrain: can you pin the wwottdgd thread in the OpenTTD General Forum
12:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> i finally think i got this station entrance right: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2020.%20Okt%201947.png
12:18:27 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause2: diagonal foundations needed :P
12:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: yeah, that would be nice sometimes
12:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, diagonal bridges and CBR, because those tunnels are unrealistic
12:19:38 <Ammler> it also looks like typical PBS
12:20:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> Custom Bridge Heads
12:20:50 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause2: try BKTunnels, would look better, I think...
12:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> to place signals or crossings on bridge heads
12:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> not just a straigt rail
12:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> the previous attempt was stopped, because the signal part was not possible with the current system
12:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, PBS would be nice, but it works without
12:23:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> i'd only have half the problems with PBS
12:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: i don't really like those
12:26:39 <Ammler> those aren't allowed to use in OTTD
12:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> but also they lack a drawing of the rail basement
12:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, something is wrong with the freight overview of trains...
12:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> "-0 Tonnen Getreide (252 Getreide) (x4)"
12:29:16 <Ammler> I asked Osakar to use them in OTTD too, he told, BK Tunnels looks much better, I should use them
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12:57:09 <dihedral|work> anybody here that does grf stuff?
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12:59:11 <dihedral|work> or some sprite stuff?
13:02:21 <dihedral|work> we are looking for a grf for #wwottdgd
13:02:31 <dihedral|work> it will also be included in the #openttdcoop grf pack
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13:28:01 <dihedral|work> TrueBrain: can you pin some threads for me?
13:28:15 <dihedral|work> us as in #wwottdgd
13:43:49 <Purno> anyone here who knows some stuff about cpanel coincidentally?
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14:24:42 <DorpsGek> dihedral|work: Wolf01 was last seen in #openttd 16 hours, 44 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <Wolf01> 'night
14:26:59 <Sacro> dihedral|work: i'll spam it in #tycoon
14:58:29 * dihedral|work is looking for TrueBrain
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15:37:26 <PIP> just a quick question 8love the game though)
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15:37:36 <PIP> is it possible to destroy a city owned crossroad?
15:37:41 <PIP> it's basicly a roundabout
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15:38:16 <dihedral|work> you need the coorect rating in that town
15:38:34 <dihedral|work> there is also a patch setting
15:38:40 <PIP> doesn't help even if i have outstanding
15:38:43 <dihedral|work> remove more town owned blah
15:38:52 <dihedral|work> what does it say
15:39:23 <dihedral|work> you get a message if something does not work what you are trying to do
15:40:19 <Greyscale> going home now. BYe
15:40:41 <PIP> Can't clear this Area. local Authoroty refuses to allow this.
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15:43:09 <dihedral|work> remove more towned owned something
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16:20:29 <Ammler> Problems with webpage / SVN Server ?
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20:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> who was that again who said he was "always on"?
20:56:04 <TrueBrain> connection problems too
20:59:45 <Phazorx> reminds me of an issue i had 2 hours ago
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21:11:39 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: sadly enough, if this client is dropped, the problems are slightly bigger than yours :p
21:11:47 <TrueBrain> (as that means around 10000 customers can't see their website :p)
21:11:51 <TrueBrain> but okay, minor detail :)
21:12:06 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: that's all matter of preception :)
21:12:16 <TrueBrain> I am gone :) Have fun all!
21:12:32 <Phazorx> my OSes suddenly loosing tcpip.sys was big problem AFAIC
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21:15:02 <valhallasw> I still need some comic groeper
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21:18:59 <valhallasw> something that groups xkcd, little gamers, megatokyo, etc :)
21:18:59 <Wolf01> we should make a webcomic on ottd
21:18:59 <Prof_Frink> valhallasw: It's called an RSS aggregator
21:18:59 <Wolf01> maybe with sacro as protagonist
21:18:59 <valhallasw> Prof_Frink: yes. but most web comics don't embed the comics in RSS
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21:42:32 <Phazorx> err what do i do with .cpp.rej after unsuccessful patching?
21:42:39 <Phazorx> from what i can see it should have worked
21:42:44 <Phazorx> and output does not make sense to me
21:43:31 <glx> .rej contains rejected part of diff
21:44:45 <Phazorx> glx: i figured that but from looks of it it should work
21:45:06 <glx> maybe a trailing space somewhere
21:48:12 <glx> this paste miss the important thing :)
21:49:47 <Phazorx> ints rej shows original and patch both?
21:50:22 <glx> .rej contains exactly the same as .patch
21:51:05 <glx> and in a different format
21:52:52 <glx> patching should have work indeed
21:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> just edit the file and search for ">>>"
21:54:05 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't work with patch
21:54:19 <Phazorx> /home/trunk# grep ">>>" src/landscape.cpp
21:54:38 <glx> >>>> is for when you have .mine and .rXXXX
21:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, then edit the file manually :p
21:55:25 <glx> yes it's a one line change
21:56:06 <Phazorx> i want to get the point whi it fails and what does .rej supposed to show
22:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: i'm guessing tab vs. spaces
22:03:29 <Phazorx> which doesnt maitain spaces and crlfs
22:03:42 <Phazorx> i direct link is nice for patches
22:03:52 <Phazorx> otherwise "smart" services are getting in the way
22:04:29 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: this patch should work on server side only, right?
22:04:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it has to be on both clients and servers
22:05:22 <Ammler> so does every single client generate randomly trees?
22:05:47 <Ammler> if you have more clients you will also have more trees?
22:06:07 <Eddi|zuHause> all clients generate the same tree
22:06:22 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise they desync
22:06:45 <Ammler> does not the server generate the tree and tell clients where?
22:07:16 <Eddi|zuHause> communication like that is only initiated for player instructed commands
22:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> all (pseudo)random stuff is calculated on each client
22:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> after each 100 ticks, the randomseed is compared
22:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> if different -> desync
22:10:05 <Ammler> and why is that needed?
22:10:24 <Ammler> wouldn't be better to do that stuff on server only?
22:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> because you cannot send all that data through the net
22:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> there are multiple thousand random decisions each tick
22:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd practically have to send the entire map each tick, because almost all tiles can change
22:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the premise of that system is to send as few data through the net as possible, so whenever you can deterministically recalculate something on all clients, you do that
22:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that goes for pretty much everything, except player intervention
22:15:15 <Ammler> ok, now, I see, thanks
22:16:00 <Ammler> how many ticks has a day?
22:16:28 <Eddi|zuHause> grep "#define DAY_TICS"?
22:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> something like 72
22:19:11 <Ammler> now, I also understand, why there are so many desyncs on some patches
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23:11:09 <Maarten> you know you have played openttd too much when you receive your paycheck, and the "ka-ching" sound rings in your head.
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continue to next day ⏵
