IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-10-08
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00:00:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't see your problem...
00:00:26 <DaleStan> Well, it's not there for the machine check. It's just an 01 or an 00 there. But failing to change both simultaneously is not a solution.
00:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if the textual representation is misspelled, don't change anything
00:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> let the user handle that
00:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> huma: different airports appear at different times
00:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that's how it works
00:01:43 <DaleStan> Yes it is. The decode must produce something that will encode functionally identical. Changing text strings is not permissible.
00:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> DaleStan: yes, that's why i said keep it. maybe give a warning, so the user can notice it
00:02:50 <huma> Eddi|zuHause: i can build a heliport, but not a helodepot to actually buy a heli. it doesn't make sense.
00:02:58 <glx> huma: helidepot available in 1976
00:03:05 <Eddi|zuHause> huma: you can buy helicopters at airports
00:03:06 <DaleStan> Then buy the heli at an airport.
00:04:22 <DaleStan> And if the coder chooses to use \7!, \7>, \7<, or some other operator?
00:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that is nothing i understand...
00:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> this does not need to be foolproof... if you don't understand the input, bail out...
00:08:20 <DaleStan> There are thirteen tests for action 7. All have a different byte representation. At least 6 of them can used for determining whether the palette is DOS or Windows. Which one should be generated automagically, and what should be done when a different one is encountered? Or when the coder does any of several hundred other things of varying obscurity?
00:09:31 <DaleStan> NFO is way worse than Perl when it comes to there's-more-than-one-way-to-do-it.
00:10:06 <Eddi|zuHause> well, just let me restate my opinion:
00:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> 1) introduce some kind of preprocessor directive
00:10:36 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) replace that with exactly one way of determining DOS or Windows palette
00:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> 3) upon decompiling, only check for that exact one way
00:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> 4) if you do not find it, give a warning
00:11:47 <DaleStan> And let my restate the state of the world: I'm not doing it. If you produce a patch for GRFCodec (And, if that breaks NFORenum, a patch for NFORenum too) then I'll consider committing them.
00:12:10 <DaleStan> 4) What if the GRF does not need different forms for DOS and Windows?
00:12:22 <glx> like action F for example
00:12:29 <DaleStan> There are such GRFs. Town names and translations especially.
00:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> still warn, and let the user decide that
00:13:06 <Eddi|zuHause> OR find a way to detect that no palette information is needed
00:13:21 <Eddi|zuHause> OR introduce a "don't care" flag
00:13:43 <DaleStan> Which is really quite easy. IF there are no real sprites, no palette information is required.
00:14:30 <SteamWilly> does anyone use "extended cargo scheme"? - and if: do i need a special trainset to get the new goods transported? some are available for transport but not all
00:14:53 <SteamWilly> only the opel-truck seems to transport anthing
00:15:33 <toresbe> the opel-truck? A truck for Opel cars? Wow, that's a bit specific, isn't it?
00:15:38 <SteamWilly> or depends iton the date?
00:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe the ECS grfs are quite new, so you would need similarly new grf sets
00:16:41 <SteamWilly> no . i mean the truck can cary it but not thr railway
00:16:46 <Sacro> What does "descarger" men?
00:18:42 <glx> from the same place as ECS
00:20:00 <SteamWilly> oh .. sems to be v3
00:20:04 <Sacro> are they the nsfw ones?
00:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see MB doing a release of DBSet 0.9 any time soon...
00:20:26 <huma> damn, these "goods" are so unstable. one day station accepts it, the other it doesn't.
00:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> get a bigger town...
00:21:13 <huma> it actually has a subsidy for goods
00:21:13 <SteamWilly> i can only find "Long road vehicles. Version 3 "
00:22:12 <SteamWilly> bad link on this site directed me to olddownloads ..
00:23:52 <DaleStan> Yes. Only as always-red or always-green, but they work.
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00:24:59 <DaleStan> The tile those signals are on is coded to be impassible.
00:25:16 <DaleStan> Hence, the signals function as if they are always red.
00:25:19 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so it's not real
00:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. you cannot force a train through it
00:25:50 <DaleStan> Not without rebuilding the tile to something that is passable.
00:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i understand now...
00:29:47 <SteamWilly> glx: ok .. i installed LV4 .. but as expected it has no affect on the ability to refit the rail-wagons -> still no way to transport sand with trains
00:30:40 <glx> <SteamWilly> no . i mean the truck can cary it but not thr railway <-- well I asked if trucks were LV4 trucks ;)
00:33:05 <Ammller> hmm, maybe the serbian train set has better ECS support?
00:33:07 <SteamWilly> now i know the answer to my question and additionally am aware of new LV4 beeing there :)
00:33:41 <SteamWilly> does serbian train set go with dbsetxl?
00:33:56 <SteamWilly> or have i to decide?
00:34:12 <glx> dbsetxl is a full set so you can't mix it with another
00:35:11 <SteamWilly> i'll give the serbian set a try
00:35:11 <Ammller> dbsetxl can't ECS, you need to wait for 0.9
00:35:50 <SteamWilly> dbstxl does at least transport sulphur
00:36:02 <Ammller> but MB seems to be more motivated since ottd has newindustries support...
00:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammller: where do you get that?
00:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> my impression of MB is of a rather "i don't care about open" opinion
00:37:49 <Ammller> hmm, for tt-ms.de/forum
00:38:31 <Ammller> but since newindustries is in ottd, there are more guys asking him about it...
00:38:56 <Ammller> and he likes to have a solution for using his set...
00:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "Mit v0.82 im Prinzip alle ECS-Vektoren von George. Es gibt (auch bei ihm auf der Seite) eine Zusatz .grf für´s DB Set (namens "ECS vehicles" o.s.ä.) die erlaubt alle Wagen auf ECS-Güter umzurüsten, allerdings ohne passende Frachtgrafiken"
00:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> probably something for SteamWilly
00:45:49 <Ammller> its seems to be very ugly
00:46:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i never tried that stuff...
00:46:57 <Ammller> me too, I just looking for a good Alpine GRF
00:47:34 <Ammller> Eddi|zuHause: you tried Alpine.GRF, with which Cargo Sets?
00:47:56 <Eddi|zuHause> no extras, just alpine and dbset
00:48:19 <Ammller> but alpine self has no new cargo, has it?
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00:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammller: not technically new, but nonnative to the arctic climate
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00:51:36 <Ammller> yeah, I will use it with NewCargo from MB then...
00:56:37 <SteamWilly> thx Eddi|zuHause for the hint on dbsetxl
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01:01:14 <Ammller> SteamWilly: serbian set not working?
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01:02:38 <SteamWilly> i don't have allready testet it - i was afk
01:02:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> what exactly was that?!
01:03:00 <Brianetta> Can somebody test my bittorrent tracker?
01:03:11 <Brianetta> You should get my grf pack
01:03:35 <SteamWilly> sorry no torrent client installed here
01:04:49 <SteamWilly> Eddi|zuHause2: i could not find any download regarding ""ECS vehicles" o.s.ä.) die erlaubt alle Wagen auf ECS-Güter umzurüsten"
01:04:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> appears to work...
01:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> SteamWilly: best you read that thread
01:08:26 <Brianetta> Ammller: Cool. I must have a local issue then.
01:11:16 <SteamWilly> Ammller: i allrady have the latest ECS grf from this source
01:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> i am connected to 1 seeder from switzerland and one leecher from uk
01:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it says it has 4 seeders
01:11:39 <SteamWilly> Eddi|zuHause2: this thread does not offer a solution for me
01:11:50 <Sacro> i'm connected to one peer in the USofA
01:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> SteamWilly: no, but a big warning not to use that grf
01:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> your location detection is wrong
01:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> as i am clearly not in the USA
01:13:16 <Sacro> p54B75063.dip.t-dailin.net
01:13:27 <Sacro> which does cross reference with Eddi|zuHause2
01:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, µTorrent probably only looks at the top level domain
01:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> is 1.7.5 the newest?
01:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> ammler probably has more upload capacity than i have download capacity :p
01:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Leecher: 0 (429496294)" <- that does not sound too great
01:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> unsigned overflow...
01:23:46 <Ammller> I have a sharing rate of 1.99 :)
01:23:54 <Rafagd> overflow is teh sux0r =(
01:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> i have like 0.17 :p
01:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> download time: 00:09:24 upload time: 00:05:13
01:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> average upload speed: 1.3KB/s
01:28:25 <SteamWilly> serbian train set look cool. but what's the meaning of a "?" aside an engine?
01:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> probably a missing character glyph
01:31:12 <SteamWilly> no - not in the text
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01:31:20 * SteamWilly makes a screenshot
01:32:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a missing sprite in any case
01:35:55 <SteamWilly> thx for your help... i'll go to bed now...
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09:45:18 <TrueBrain> oh no, not this guy again
09:45:30 <TrueBrain> does anyone know who this Rubidium is? I find him rather annoying
09:47:28 <TheMask96> all dutch people are annoying ;)
10:05:19 <TrueBrain> any FON user here? :p
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10:31:02 * TrueBrain slaps Purno: don't poke, it is rude
10:31:33 <TrueBrain> @kick Purno now stop doing that
10:31:33 *** Purno was kicked by DorpsGek (now stop doing that)
10:32:09 <TrueBrain> yeah, that is what you get :p
10:32:11 <Purno> what the hell is wrong with poking someone?
10:32:24 <TrueBrain> it is rude! And then you switch to slapping? I don't like SM :(
10:32:29 <TrueBrain> (not in this channel anyway :p)
10:32:36 <Purno> you were the first one slapping
10:32:53 <TrueBrain> @kick TrueBrain now stop doing that
10:32:53 *** TrueBrain was kicked by DorpsGek (now stop doing that)
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10:33:16 <TrueBrain> so, now I am back on my kick quota for today :) Sorry Purno, I just dislike dutch people :p
10:34:21 <Purno> I hope your dutch too, otherwise it'd be rather discrimating
10:34:34 <boekabart> fortunately he is. Low self esteem...
10:35:43 <TrueBrain> @kick TrueBrain NO MSN ICONS!
10:35:43 *** TrueBrain was kicked by DorpsGek (NO MSN ICONS!)
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10:35:54 <TrueBrain> hard to keep up with the rules...
10:36:17 <TrueBrain> I wish HalfLife OrangeBox was there...
10:36:26 <Purno> eh... don't tell me you seriously have those kind of silly rules?
10:37:04 <TrueBrain> only when it annoys me
10:37:35 <TrueBrain> and yes, MSN Icons really are a true pain in the ass to read on IRC
10:37:45 <TrueBrain> but tha tmostly because nobody understands...
10:40:46 <TrueBrain> hmm, mouse needs new batteries
10:45:04 <TrueBrain> toen onze boekabart een boekje was, was hij aardig om te zien! Nu boekt hij alle boeken, en neust hij bovendien! (don't ask, I am totally bored)
10:46:22 <boekabart> TrueBrain: then read and critize boekje's deepwater patch :)
10:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i figure i really shouldn't ...
10:46:44 <TrueBrain> boekabart: in fact, I was doing just that :p
10:46:59 <boekabart> then you really _are_ bored
10:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, who was the guy with the tunnel patch, and where did he disappear to?
10:47:50 <boekabart> Eddi|zuHause: what tunnel patch do you refer to?
10:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the one with the video
10:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> arbitrary rails in tunnels
10:48:49 <TrueBrain> yeah, I know what you mean
10:48:53 <TrueBrain> the guy publishing a ogg video
10:50:00 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 12 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <SmatZ> good night
10:50:46 <boekabart> TrueBrain: you even gave him his own directory on your ~ folder..
10:51:06 <TrueBrain> yeah, so I could remember the name :p
10:51:26 <TrueBrain> I might look stupid, but I have my moments :)
10:56:02 * boekabart cannot play divx/xvid at work ;(
11:03:37 <toresbe> the tunnel feature realle looks cool
11:03:42 <toresbe> it's not in SVN is it?
11:04:05 <TrueBrain> I believe nobody has seen the code
11:04:09 <toresbe> meh. It's a really good idea though
11:15:44 <Ammler> you mean the thing from SmartZ?
11:16:59 <toresbe> well, that tunnel thing what makes me can place lights
11:17:21 <Ammler> ah, ok, there is no patch available for that
11:17:48 <toresbe> Are there any other tunnel improvements out - or in the works?
11:19:02 <Ammler> hmm, not that I know off, peter???? is working on enhanced tunnels, but also no patch availalbe for, as much as I know...
11:19:30 <boekabart> peter???? as in peter1138?
11:20:40 <boekabart> afaik, he's kind of missing
11:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what this needs is proper ground sprites
11:21:54 <boekabart> what this needs is a patch that works first :)
11:24:35 <Ammler> boekabart: is there a patch for that already? (a non working one)
11:26:13 <boekabart> yes, ttdpatch :) (no, not that I know of)
11:26:43 <Ammler> yeah, the screen is from there... :)
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13:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> what is "Industry Stations Renewal"?
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13:45:01 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: buggy facelift for industry stations
13:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> so you don't recommend it?
13:45:38 <Phazorx> more variety of station tiles (as well as non track ones) but they work normally only with rails, monorail and mlev is a bit buggy
13:45:51 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause: i'd say wait till release, sionce curerntly it is beta
13:55:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually use monorail or maglev
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14:56:36 <SpComb> hylje: ...and I don't particularly like paster, it's just the web framework that I've used and seems kind of quick to use
14:57:19 <SpComb> but the load averages on marttila.de were between 4 and 14 for the past few weeks, and now that I've restarted paster (which was at around 170m of ram, RES), they're down to about 0.10
14:57:47 <SpComb> which makes me contemplate if I want to switch MyOTTD to something a bit more lean before its too late
14:58:05 <SpComb> SpBotII's stagnating for somewhat similar reasons...
14:59:16 <hylje> i didnt manage to get pylons up
14:59:41 <SpComb> writing cgi python apps was very enjoyable <3
15:00:10 <SpComb> there wasn't fifty thousand lines of bloated (but admittedly useful) code between your code and the web server
15:02:04 <SpComb> things like routes are really nice features in Pylons that Django doesn't have (at least by default)
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15:05:21 <SpComb> but if pylons is keeping you from looking at MyOTTD, I wouldn't mind looking at alternatives...
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15:06:00 * SpComb is starting to run into problems with his maths/physics stuff at university though, and needs to give those priority over MyOTTD, though
15:07:08 <hylje> i suppose i could work on porting that thing
15:07:32 <SpComb> the web app isn't particularly complex, most of the real code is in the twisted daemon
15:07:36 <TrueBrain> SpComb: I know that problem...
15:07:47 <Csaboka> I have some problems with the OTTD source code
15:08:00 <TrueBrain> Csaboka: with the source-code, you don't hear thatone every day
15:08:17 <Csaboka> I'm trying to extend the animated tile list from 256 items to a dynamically allocated array
15:08:33 <Csaboka> but I got really lost with the load/save routines
15:09:05 <TrueBrain> look at other dynamic arrays
15:09:23 <Csaboka> in TTDPatch, you just give it a bunch of bytes and off you go, but OTTD has to do it in a more complicated way
15:09:53 <Csaboka> well, I couldn't find any other array whose size can't be figured out before loading
15:10:15 <TrueBrain> almost all arrays for big things are dynamic
15:10:23 <TrueBrain> best example I guess is either depots or signs
15:11:30 <Csaboka> but those use an array of objects, and that seems to be different from the RIFF format the animation array seems to use
15:11:41 <glx> Rubidium started to do something for animated tiles
15:12:26 <Csaboka> oh, so I guess I'm working in vain, then, he must be more familiar with the code :)
15:12:45 <glx> he have problems with saveload too :)
15:13:31 <Csaboka> in TTDPatch, I would have saved a length prefix, then the TileIndexes, but I don't know if this is the right way for OTTD or not
15:13:57 <Csaboka> or even, how to read a simple uint32 from the savegame
15:14:18 <Csaboka> there is SlArray for arrays, but ReadUint32 is static
15:14:49 <SpComb> the Java course is trivial, uninteresting and takes a fair amount of work, the Digital Engineering course has a fair amount of familiar stuff, and some new stuff, the Basics of Electrical Engineering has a good lecturer and is somewhat interesting (although there's a lot of maths/physics involved), but maths and physics... lectures start at eight in the morning, the practice sessions suck and I don't like those subjects at all
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15:15:42 <Phazorx> boekabart: is there a way to county used and unused track tiles?
15:17:49 <Csaboka> I think I'll revert the changes I've made, I could only do the easy part anyway, I guess Rubidium has already done that
15:18:45 <boekabart> Phazorx: there is a way :)
15:18:52 <boekabart> but not in the current patch
15:19:10 <Phazorx> boekabart: would be very nice
15:19:31 <Phazorx> especialy applied to coopers aproach to evaluate performance of network
15:20:31 <boekabart> Phazorx: well the 'usage' is a byte between 0 and 255
15:20:49 <boekabart> 0 = 'new / just used'
15:21:25 <boekabart> so 'counting' is hard - an average number would be doable but it's exact meaning is tricky, although 'the lower the better' is a good indication :)
15:22:03 <Phazorx> i mean what does the count represents?
15:22:28 <boekabart> Nothing: over time it in increases, on usage, it decreases
15:22:40 <Phazorx> decreases or restets?
15:22:53 <boekabart> decreases, the first train doesn't clean everything away
15:23:05 <boekabart> if it would, it would be useless as a 'usage indicator'
15:23:19 <Phazorx> what i meant is actualy that param across all tiles of same company
15:23:36 <boekabart> the way I did it (non-linear), it will stabilize around a certain number indicating the track usage
15:23:46 <boekabart> lower = more efficiently used
15:23:57 <Phazorx> well logarifmic scale would make great sense
15:24:34 <Phazorx> but i really want to know total count of all tacks per type and some number representing percentage used
15:24:45 <boekabart> pls look at patch, I don't know the exact formula by heart, but I did it this way (loga-ish) so that it would settle around a certain value based on the number of trains per 'time'.
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15:24:59 <Phazorx> and for making game more challening - property tax should be proportional to amounf of tracks
15:25:30 <Phazorx> boekabart: i'll check the patch and from sound of it looks like you are on right track
15:25:41 <boekabart> Phazorx: it's definately possible to take the average of the numbers and derive an efficiency number from it - not in % though
15:25:55 <Phazorx> i'm just saying it would be ncie to have more than just visual representation... that data has economical/game menaing as well
15:26:07 <boekabart> i know - it should be added to tile-info ? as wel
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15:37:16 <SpComb> or perhaps I should write my own web framework, if I knew the code in and out then I wouldn't have any of these problems
15:37:30 * SpComb is looking at CherryPy
15:38:03 <SpComb> web.py's templating is ridiculously bad, and I didn't like the weird globals magic either
15:38:32 <SpComb> pylons uses threadlocal globals (imported via "import * from ..."), which are even worse
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16:01:27 <DorpsGek> skidd13: Wolf01 was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 47 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Wolf01> 'night
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16:23:53 <SpComb> hmm, taking a big screenshot gets a little big unrealistic once the map size goes up
16:24:44 <SpComb> 8x8 was reasonably fast, but 10x10 seems to be taking a while
16:25:18 <Rubidium> it's "only" 16 times as big
16:26:31 <SpComb> I'm assuming that there's currently no way to get a minimap out of a dedciated server in .png form?
16:36:24 * SpComb ponders feasability of modifying smallmap_gui.c to draw the minimap as a PNG image
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16:37:43 <SpComb> I'm getting closer and closer to patching openttd for use with MyOTTD
16:38:57 <SpComb> I probably will, although I'll run lots of risks in terms of stuff breaking with different versions of OpenTTD and not compiling/crashing
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17:12:16 <Ihmemies> youtube links aren't cool? :(
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17:36:52 <Wolf01> boekabart, how's going with the water?
17:38:33 <boekabart> Wolf01: Wet, very wet
17:39:04 <Wolf01> do you are in deep water with that patch?
17:39:05 <boekabart> I don't know - I've been getting feedback from the devs
17:39:29 <boekabart> but if it's actually really considered - ask them :)
17:40:52 * boekabart just opened a scanjet2400.. by force
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17:41:51 <Vaevictus> can the advanced signals be used in an optimized fashion with bidirectional stations? or just with loops?
17:41:51 <boekabart> it might be closeable and working again,, but the glass was dirty on the inside
17:43:30 *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
17:47:14 * boekabart is quite happy with the result of the cleaning job
17:47:18 <SpComb> looks like a bunch of people tried to create MyOTTD servers, but there were some slight bugs in the add-a-new-server part
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18:05:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
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18:07:08 <mcbane> is there a way to log activity of network games if i host one?
18:07:48 <mcbane> because i dunny why but with ECS i getting a huge desync rate.
18:08:46 <TrueBrain> there are ways to debug it, but you need a dev to help you out I guess :)
18:09:03 <boekabart> right.. probably what ah, the ttdpatch newindustries developer suggests in the forum
18:09:09 <boekabart> not enough animated tile slots
18:09:24 <TrueBrain> shouldnt' desync ;)
18:09:29 <Rubidium> boekabart: that shouldn't cause desyncs
18:09:41 <boekabart> well depends how the tile slots are being filled, right?
18:10:01 <Rubidium> in the same manner in each client, or so it should be
18:10:02 <boekabart> but ok, if it's not 'screen position related', it shouldn't
18:10:51 <DaleStan> Apparently, ECS uses its animation state for storing other state. Could the extra animated tiles be getting undefined info for their animation state?
18:11:15 <TrueBrain> a good grf should check the flag if there are more-animations, not? :p
18:11:28 <Rubidium> DaleStan: undefined maybe, but the same on all clients/servers
18:11:48 <DaleStan> Nope. No way to know the moreanimation setting, and even if there were, there's no way to know if it's large enough.
18:12:05 <TrueBrain> | (0 << 0x1C) // moreanimations
18:12:14 <DaleStan> Unless it's set to at least $TILES_ON_MAP.
18:12:57 <DaleStan> That just returns on/off. Which could just as easily be moreanimation 256 (no change) or moreanimation 65535 .
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18:16:07 <mcbane> another thing i noticed at creating the random map at bout 50% itis really sol for about 10%...
18:16:49 <DaleStan> (It's also wrong; the switch is "moreanimation", not "moreanimations".)
18:17:16 * SpComb straightened out the MyOTTD code
18:17:16 <DaleStan> mcbane: Could you try again, but in English this time?
18:17:31 <SpComb> and tested/fixed the Add Server thing for the first time since I first wrote it
18:18:00 <mcbane> dale: when creating a random map the progress is shown in %
18:18:26 <DaleStan> Anyone here can be assumed to know that.
18:18:41 <Bjarni> I think it's the sol part that we don't get
18:19:12 <DerFraggy> hi guys, is there a specific irc-channel for ttd-internetgames?
18:19:13 <mcbane> ok at creating industries when it reaches 50% its like something slowing the creating of industries dramatically..
18:19:15 <DaleStan> "bout" isn't valid in that context either.
18:20:11 <Bjarni> mcbane: do you mean that when it's at 50%, it stalls for a moment?
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18:20:56 <Bjarni> this would have been a whole lot easier if you just said so from the beginning
18:21:01 <Bjarni> and said it in English as well
18:23:19 <Bjarni> what's the idea about spam that don't sell anything or contains any links at all? :s
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18:23:48 <Bjarni> I just got one saying "bigger is better" and that's it. No product name or links or anything
18:25:36 <boekabart> Bjarni: just say the word
18:26:02 * boekabart pats Bjarni, he's a good boy :)
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18:27:16 <Bjarni> you know, it could be one of those unit enlargement thingies, but they usually tell you how to give them money for their worthless pills
18:28:51 <boekabart> there we have it, bigger thingies
18:29:26 <boekabart> she says that just to be nice
18:29:54 *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
18:29:57 <Bjarni> even lower than the belt area
18:30:04 <boekabart> exactly there, in fact.
18:30:15 <boekabart> sorry, that was indeed childish
18:30:39 <boekabart> i was bored waiting for the stupid scanner
18:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r11227 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-10-08 20:45:04
18:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 3 fixed, 236 changed by TrueTenacity (239)
18:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 5 fixed by knovak (5)
18:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changed by lorenzodv (1)
18:46:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovak - 2 fixed by lengyel (2)
18:46:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 2 fixed by eusebio (2)
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19:08:48 <glx> <mcbane> ok at creating industries when it reaches 50% its like something slowing the creating of industries dramatically.. <-- probably because it can't place some industries and retries a lot
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19:10:57 <mcbane> if you use a 1k x 1k map there is a lot space with setting industries on low.
19:11:49 <glx> but some industries want a certain slope, or distance too water, or ...
19:56:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11228 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: implement the "moreanimation" feature of TTDP, so we can properly support newindustries.
19:59:34 <Ihmemies> implement a GUI which is usable at 2560x1600
19:59:39 <Ihmemies> and some kind of nicer scaling..... :P
20:00:58 <Rubidium> can you be more vague that that?
20:03:10 *** |Bastiaan| has joined #openttd
20:03:50 <Ihmemies> what's not clear then?
20:04:42 <Ihmemies> the gfx get absolutely too tiny at higher res
20:05:32 <Rubidium> well... all problems are solved when you change the resolution to 1280x800 I guess
20:06:01 <SmatZ> I use 1600x1200 on 21" CRT, and everything is nice
20:06:37 <SmatZ> if you use 2560x1600 on monitor <=21", then everything is very small, yes...
20:06:50 <Rubidium> even on my 1920x1200 at 15-ish" it's legible
20:06:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11229 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#1307]: one could sell vehicles that were crashed in a depot, which would still yield money.
20:07:18 <Ihmemies> you can probably spot a flea flying half a kilometer away on a rainy autumn night too
20:07:19 <De_Ghost> what's wrong with that
20:07:49 <Rubidium> yeah, but scrap metal is not worth a penny
20:08:13 <De_Ghost> why you think people recycle aluminum
20:08:28 <Rubidium> De_Ghost: relatively to the price of the vehicle...
20:08:44 <De_Ghost> i mean it's at least worth 200 bux
20:10:21 * Rubidium hates bugs that aren't really that dependant on eachother
20:16:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11230 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1228]: one could construct trains out of crashed wagons and engines. Based on a patch by SmatZ.
20:21:26 *** Hendikins is now known as Hendikins|Work
20:24:27 *** dihedral|work is now known as dihedral
20:42:27 <huma> eh.. still no youtube goodies
20:42:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11231 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1311] (r11128): Someone misplaced a "static". This results in wrong bounding boxes for tunnels in X direction. Patch by frosch.
20:55:43 <dihedral> Rubidium: could it be that the vast amount of desyns you see lately are from moving the network_client.tmp file to My Documents?
20:56:44 <dihedral> because if you are connected to 2 games...? :-)
20:57:06 <dihedral> having 2 separate folders is not enough anymore
20:57:14 <Rubidium> dihedral: only if you join them at the same time
20:58:47 <dihedral> so it does not keep the file pointer open?
20:59:03 <Rubidium> only when downloading the game and loading the game
20:59:31 <dihedral> why then not download directly into memory?
20:59:44 <glx> the save should be in a place relative to openttd.cfg
20:59:44 <dihedral> or would that make things more complicated
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21:00:11 <dihedral> why not relative to the executable?
21:00:44 <Rubidium> dihedral: that would require a total rewrite of the saveload code
21:01:12 <dihedral> relative to executable or download to mem?
21:01:35 <glx> you can use 1 exe for many servers
21:01:38 <Rubidium> the latter, though the former won't work on read-only install directories
21:01:49 *** [1]Mark is now known as Mark
21:02:00 <Rubidium> such as installed-by-admin-and-played-by-normal-user on Windows
21:02:21 <dihedral> i was just wondering because XeryusTC desynced yesterday a lot
21:02:34 <dihedral> i desynced on the day before a lot
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21:03:29 <XeryusTC> my desyncs were caused by building certain stations
21:03:57 <dihedral> but you were the only one desyncing
21:03:58 <XeryusTC> i desynced everytime i build stations from a certain class
21:04:02 <dihedral> and that like 10x in a row
21:04:10 <dihedral> all right after joining
21:04:42 <dihedral> i was on my nightly game the other day and 1 guy got a connection lost and 2 others got a desync... at the same time
21:06:17 <dihedral> so a desync is when the seed differes right?
21:06:19 <Bjarni> sounds like a desync bug
21:06:45 <dihedral> which happens when the client map is different from that of the server, right?
21:06:48 <Bjarni> like something happened at the server and not at any of the clients
21:07:09 <Bjarni> and the server map is presumed to be correct
21:07:13 <dihedral> Bjarni: when the that happend i stayed connected....
21:07:39 <Bjarni> so all clients having a different map (or vehicle count/location) will desync
21:07:55 <dihedral> then why did i not...?
21:07:58 <Bjarni> <dihedral> Bjarni: when the that happend i stayed connected.... <-- odd
21:08:18 <dihedral> i had been desyncing all the time before that
21:08:21 <Bjarni> try to figure out how to reproduce this
21:08:29 <dihedral> then was connected for like 10 mins and the other 3 guys flew out
21:08:39 <dihedral> Bjarni: i wish i could
21:08:53 <Bjarni> you use a little endian CPU, right?
21:09:28 <Bjarni> I don't care for brand, only if it could be caused by different endianess
21:09:29 <dihedral> for both, server & workstation
21:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: are you aware that your tracker has a overflow issue with the client count?
21:11:12 <Bjarni> I wish I could say something clever regarding what could have caused this desync and a plan on fixing it, but right now I can't think of anything :(
21:12:10 <dihedral> Bjarni: in theory, if it was the endianness, i should be able to play on my PPC mac and never desync...
21:12:36 <Bjarni> usually it's the PPCs that desyncs
21:12:59 <dihedral> IIRC they support some kind of switching between the both
21:13:00 <Bjarni> but yes, it could be interesting to test it on PPC
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21:13:16 <dihedral> well - i'll be doing that tomorrow evening then :-)
21:13:17 <Bjarni> I know how PPC works ;)
21:13:18 <TrueBrain> dihedral / XeryusTC: I missed like 90% of the story, but do I get it right that XeryusTC desynced (as the only person) when he tried to build something?
21:13:22 <TrueBrain> where the rest didn't desync?
21:13:33 <Bjarni> and I know that PPC OpenTTD for OSX is big endian
21:13:49 <TrueBrain> dihedral: and did the building he was trying to build really built on your side?
21:13:55 <dihedral> Bjarni: well i did not know :-D
21:14:13 <dihedral> TrueBrain: i have no idea what he was building
21:14:18 <Bjarni> I made the port. I should know
21:14:27 <dihedral> TrueBrain: but that would let XeryusTC have desynced ONCE, and not 10x
21:14:53 <TrueBrain> so the case is simple: either the DoCommand issued a Random() outside the DC_EXEC block, or the server gave a CMD_ERROR where the client of XeryusTC said it was okay
21:15:08 <TrueBrain> my bet is on the first case ;)
21:15:09 <Bjarni> I also know that on G3 and G4, the game will use an opcode to read an int in reversed byte order, hence switching endianess in hardware
21:15:15 <dihedral> TrueBrain: but XeryusTC desynced like 10x right after connecting again
21:15:24 <TrueBrain> dihedral: after building the station again, right?
21:15:26 <XeryusTC> not right after comming in
21:15:27 <dihedral> like within a second and 15 i'd say
21:15:39 <XeryusTC> after i build stations from a certain newgrf file
21:15:46 <dihedral> TrueBrain: i dont think he would have had that chance every time
21:15:48 <TrueBrain> so it is really the building that caused the desync
21:15:51 <XeryusTC> the stations were build, but were the default station when i rejoined
21:16:13 <TrueBrain> and the grfs of your client are 100% in sync with the server?
21:16:21 <dihedral> TrueBrain: well - i build nothing when it happened on my nightly :-)
21:16:34 <DaleStan> Isn't newgrf sync guaranteed?
21:16:41 <TrueBrain> dihedral: never confuse 2 desyncs
21:16:54 <dihedral> TrueBrain: well now i know :-)
21:16:57 <Bjarni> dihedral: basically PPC OSX and the CPUs it uses are big endian (Apple used PPC 7xx and 9xx). PPC 4xx can switch to a little endian mode, but I don't think 7xx and 9xx can do that
21:17:00 <TrueBrain> dihedral: if XeryusTC said it happened when he build something, it happens because of that. If you desync too, that can be a very different reason ;)
21:17:03 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: well, i could join the server, so it should be
21:17:20 <Rubidium> DaleStan: not 100%; one could sneak in a different newgrf just after the checks have been done, but before the newgrfs are loaded.
21:17:21 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: should be and are, are 2 different worlds ;)
21:17:37 <TrueBrain> someone could modify the client to give always the right md5
21:17:41 <XeryusTC> but, i deleted the directory and copied exes from another ottd copy and put the correct newgrfs and stuff in there
21:17:45 <TrueBrain> and I can think up some other clever things to avoid it :p
21:17:55 <XeryusTC> might also be because i removed static newgrfs in that proces
21:18:13 <XeryusTC> i also had this kind of thing before, but i dont know how to reproduce it
21:18:15 <TrueBrain> so you currently have no way to reproduce?
21:18:34 <TrueBrain> next time, copy your whole map which caused a desync reproducable, before starting to get it to work again ;)
21:18:40 <TrueBrain> that is, if you want to be of any use to us ;) :p
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21:19:15 <dihedral> what if overwriting newgrfs with their newer versions
21:19:18 <dihedral> while the game is running
21:19:23 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: tnx ;) :)
21:19:34 <XeryusTC> dihedral: doesnt matter if it was running
21:19:43 <TrueBrain> dihedral: in theory the grf-specs are already in the memory
21:19:44 <dihedral> well - it did not matter to my server...
21:19:44 <XeryusTC> even after restarting the game it still happened
21:19:47 <TrueBrain> the sprites aren't though
21:19:58 <dihedral> sorry - it did matter to my server
21:20:47 <dihedral> it was sending md5sums in the info packet that were never resolved to names
21:21:08 <dihedral> or grfid's for that fact - not sure
21:21:47 <dihedral> i extracted the ottdc update pack into the data dir of my server while it was running
21:21:59 <dihedral> and issued a newgame
21:22:42 <dihedral> yes - i will admit that i was being lazy :-)
21:23:26 <dihedral> any how - afaik - XeryusTC was not the only guy to have desynct a lot on that game
21:23:48 <dihedral> there were a few desyncs the day before, by i-dont-know-who... :-(
21:24:14 <dihedral> perhaps one could find them in the irc log file :)
21:27:53 <dihedral> well - night time for me
21:28:35 <dihedral> and thanks for answering that question i had :-)
21:29:07 <SmatZ> r11230 uses call to DeleteVehicleChain
21:29:19 <SmatZ> assert(v->type != VEH_TRAIN && v->type != VEH_ROAD);
21:29:29 <SmatZ> it doesn't work for trains/rvs
21:29:58 <SmatZ> eg. current trunk ends in assert when deleting flooded vehicles
21:30:29 <SmatZ> anyway - it says my patch was incorrect, too
21:34:56 <SmatZ> actually I see no reason why this assert is there
21:37:38 <Rubidium> probably so-called histerical raisins
21:42:55 <Rubidium> Phazorx: first try to reproduce it with a somewhat smaller list of NewGRFs
21:44:57 <Phazorx> Rubidium: it hapepnds on a save with only first 3
21:46:39 <Rubidium> and when you disable the other two, or move them around?
21:47:37 <Wolf01> Phazorx, i confirm it, it happens with the firestation to me, sometimes with the hospital
21:48:10 <Phazorx> game wont load if i disable pbi
21:49:13 <Phazorx> and rearranging has no effect
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