IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-10-06
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00:15:44 *** valhalla1w has joined #openttd
00:18:31 <huma> hmm, here goes the 3rd subsidy :)
00:23:53 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: belugas * r11216 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Codechange: Protect the callback who would access var 45 against a randomness that could eventually cause desynchs. Instead, use a controlled random value.
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01:06:13 <Phazorx> well since PBI is on the menu now we ened to get sac to do trees for alpine...
01:07:19 <Sacro> Born_Acorn! NEWINDUSTRIES!
01:07:42 <Sacro> peter1138! newindustries!
01:07:45 <DorpsGek> Sacro: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 16 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <peter1138> _minime_, looks good to me
01:08:59 <Phazorx> really tho, default trees look horrable
01:09:33 * Sacro considers starting Sacro's Nightly Server
01:11:44 * Belugas thinks Sacro has been sleeping the whole day...
01:11:56 <Sacro> Belugas: no, at uni, then at a mates
01:15:39 <Belugas> looks like a good day :)
01:19:06 <Phazorx> hmm... how do i get brick chain to work?
01:19:20 <Phazorx> or is it temperate only?
01:19:43 <Phazorx> it is loaded 1st, right before
01:25:22 <Phazorx> and only one quary on 8x8
01:25:37 <Phazorx> have to be particular slope?
01:28:26 <glx> yes quarry need a specific landscape
01:28:44 <Sacro> openttd over x-forwarding sucks :(
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01:39:01 <Phazorx> well 5 quaries on 6 8x8 maps :(
01:42:34 <Sacro> where does the nightly store openttd.cfg
01:43:09 <Sacro> tell it to GTFO of $HOMEDIR
01:43:13 <glx> mydocs\openttd by default
01:43:45 <glx> but if there is one in exe dir it will use it
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03:06:38 <toresbe> I've got a question about path-based signalling
03:07:12 <toresbe> I'm running latest SVN and I'm running a save game now and I've disabled YAPF to try to build some of these signals
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03:09:21 <toresbe> is it a build option, or something...?
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05:37:10 <SquireJames> Hello, I was just wondering if anyone knew if anyone had any plans for Restrictive Signalling in OTTD
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05:42:32 <De_Ghost> or a always green signal
06:00:44 <SquireJames> Okay, i'll ask here ;)
06:01:01 <SquireJames> Does OpenTTD support enhancedtunnels or custombridgeheads?
06:03:00 <DaleStan> toresbe: PBS was removed ages ago. (Before 0.5.0)
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06:34:32 <SquireJames> Right, sorry if i bother people with questions but
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10:54:51 <toresbe> DaleStan: ah. The wiki does not reflect this :)
11:02:33 <XeryusTC> <SquireJames> Does OpenTTD support enhancedtunnels or custombridgeheads? <- no, no
11:14:41 <Tefad> i've not known many wiki's to be very reflective
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12:19:49 <dihedral> max_ships = 0 a and i was just offered a hovercraft :-)
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13:19:06 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11217 /trunk/ (Makefile.in readme.txt): -Update: the readme as some things weren't quite right anymore.
13:20:40 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: glx * r11218 /trunk/ (Makefile.in config.lib): -Codechange: remove unused ENABLE_INSTALL in Makefile.in, and add --disable-unicode in configure help
13:21:27 <Betalord> is that autoreplace button working?
13:21:44 <Betalord> I tried dragging a plane to it (in the hangar) to replace it as it was old, but it didn't do anything
13:21:54 <glx> you just need to clic on it
13:21:56 <Betalord> so I had to sell it and buy a new one
13:22:02 <Bjarni> you press that button and then it will try to replace everything in the depot
13:22:03 <Betalord> I clicked too, nothing happened
13:22:20 <Bjarni> make sure that you have enough money and all that
13:22:28 <glx> and it doesn't renew, but replace
13:22:31 <Bjarni> and that you set up replace for the engine in question
13:22:34 <Betalord> yeah, money's no a problem. 200 million will do? ;)
13:22:58 <Betalord> aha, how do I set up a replacement?
13:23:12 <Bjarni> 200 million is not really a useful info as it lacks the info about currency and if you set up some obscene autorenew money setting
13:23:23 <Betalord> (I thought it would just replace it with the same model, just that it's new)
13:23:50 <Bjarni> <Betalord> (I thought it would just replace it with the same model, just that it's new) <-- this is what it will NOT do ;)
13:25:22 <Betalord> ok again, where can I set up a replacement?
13:25:34 <Betalord> can't find any button or anything anywhere
13:26:07 <Betalord> the plane button, bottom right?
13:26:40 <Betalord> ah, found it: manage list -> replace vehicles
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13:27:03 <Bjarni> glx: you need to be quicker to point to the wiki
13:27:06 <dihedral> Rubidium: [14:20] <dihedral> max_ships = 0 a and i was just offered a hovercraft :-)
13:27:29 <dihedral> or is that intended?
13:27:42 <Bjarni> a hovercraft is not a ship as it's ON the water, not IN the water :P
13:27:49 <Bjarni> however the game don't know that difference
13:28:07 <dihedral> and out of which depot does it come
13:28:13 <glx> dihedral: you can't buy it but it's not a problem for the game
13:28:17 <dihedral> and how many can you build if max_ships is set to 0
13:28:41 <dihedral> glx: i would not have thought it were a prob to the game
13:28:45 <dihedral> it's just missleading
13:29:07 <glx> well, make a patch to prevent it ;)
13:29:22 <Bjarni> you have an autosave from just before it happened
13:29:58 <Bjarni> by keeping, I mean move it elsewhere so it's not overwritten
13:30:17 <Betalord> Bjarni, how does this work though? Does it replace all vehicles of that type, or just too old ones, or can you even controle which individual vehicles to replace?
13:30:52 <glx> but you can prevent some groups to be replaced
13:31:08 <Bjarni> globally next time they enter a depot (or if they are already in a depot and you click the button)
13:31:09 <Betalord> Bjarni, that is not very useful though
13:31:20 <Betalord> I want to replace just the ones that are too old etc.
13:31:41 <glx> there's autorenew for that
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13:31:59 <Betalord> oh, where's that? :)
13:32:56 <Betalord> aha found that option. How does it work? When vehicle gets old is gets to hangar automatically and new one is bought?
13:33:56 <Betalord> ok this is not what I'm looking for either, I don't want some old outdated models to get replaced by the same outdated models, I want to have some control over it
13:34:42 <glx> use autoreplace for outdated->newer
13:34:52 <Bjarni> updated that wiki page
13:35:00 <Bjarni> somebody wrote something incorrectly :(
13:35:04 <glx> autorenew for old->new (same type)
13:36:34 <Betalord> ok, I still don't get it - how can I make use of the "Autoreplace all aircraft in the hangar" button?
13:36:55 <Bjarni> say you have a plane of type A in the hangar
13:37:04 <Bjarni> and you want it to be type B
13:37:15 <Bjarni> then you set up autoreplace so A->B
13:37:28 <Betalord> in vehicles list, you mean?
13:37:30 <Bjarni> and then you press the button to activate that replace rule on all aircraft in the hangar
13:37:50 <Bjarni> <Bjarni> then you set up autoreplace so A->B <-- in the autoreplace window, which is opened from the vehicle list
13:38:09 <Betalord> yes I've got that set up, but the button in hangar still doesn't do anything
13:38:28 <Bjarni> then you did something wrong :P
13:38:38 <Betalord> should I enable "Start replacing vehicles" in that vehicle list?
13:38:53 <Bjarni> do as the wiki tell you to do
13:38:54 <Betalord> because last time that I clicked that, it replaced ALL of myy planes of that type, which is NOT what I want
13:39:26 <Bjarni> autoreplace is a tool to use when you want to replace a whole lot of one type to another one
13:39:40 <Bjarni> it's actually not really designed to replace just a single vehicle
13:39:46 <glx> it's a global replacement but using groups you can prevent unwanted replacements
13:40:21 <Betalord> ok I guess I'm doing something wrong
13:40:35 <Betalord> my goal: to replace aircrafts in the hanger with new ones
13:40:56 <Betalord> went to vehicle list, then manage list -> replace vehicles
13:41:10 <Betalord> selected the type that I want to replace on left pane, selected type B on right pane
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13:41:20 <Betalord> now 2 different scenarios:
13:41:43 <Betalord> a) I clicked "start replacing vehicles". That replaced ALL of my planes of that type, which is not what I want at all
13:42:17 <glx> that is how it is supposed to work
13:42:31 <Betalord> b) I didn't click the replace button, but I did set up type B on the right pane. I went to hangar where I had a plane of type A parked, and clicked "Autoreplace all aircraft in hangar". Nothing happened
13:42:53 <Bjarni> this is how it's supposed to work
13:43:00 <Betalord> now my question is, how do I replace that plane in the hangar with new plane?*
13:43:09 <Bjarni> as I said: it's designed to work on a whole lot of vehicles, not just a single one
13:43:21 <Betalord> (withouth selling it and buying a new one)
13:43:36 <Bjarni> you can't, unless you mess with vehicle groups
13:43:45 <Bjarni> selling and buying a new one is likely faster
13:43:47 <glx> in nightlies you can group vehicules and protect them against global replacements
13:44:03 <Betalord> ok, then tell me what does the "Autoreplace all vehicles in hangar" button do? Beceuse it doesn't do anything in my case
13:44:52 <glx> autoreplace is done when vehicle enter in depot
13:44:55 <Bjarni> normally autoreplace trigger one vehicles once they enter a depot. If your depot is full of that type of vehicle when you start to replace, you can hit that button to replace everything inside
13:45:07 <Bjarni> otherwise you would have to make all of them leave and return to replace them
13:45:53 <Betalord> hm I don't understand
13:45:54 <Bjarni> that's basically the only use I can find for this button, but people requested it, so I made it
13:46:20 <Betalord> why would such a button be needed if autoreplacement is done automatically anyway?
13:46:43 <Bjarni> most of the time it's not needed
13:46:45 <glx> because autoreplacement is not done if the vehicle is already stopped in depot
13:47:04 <Betalord> ok anyway, my suggestion is this: make it so that upon clicking on this button all the planes parked in the hanger are replaced with new ones, according to rules set in "autoreplace list"
13:47:08 <skidd13> My current openttd binary segfaults sometimes when autosave :(
13:47:21 <Bjarni> you stopped say 10 vehicles in the depot, then you set replace for them, hit the replace button and stop the replace setting in the autoreplace window
13:48:38 <Bjarni> the OSX port had an autosave issue. It was due to letters like ä, but I think unicode got rid of this for good
13:49:06 <skidd13> The problem is that the autosave works as normal quite a long time and then suddenly bang.
13:49:12 <glx> maybe a NULL dereference in saveload code
13:49:19 <Bjarni> btw ä is a bad letter not to be able to use as the savegame by default also includes the name of the month
13:49:41 <Bjarni> skidd13: play in a debugger to figure out why it dies
13:50:05 <Bjarni> would be nice to know which line it dies in
13:55:53 <Phazorx> are there any NI crucial changes since last nighty?
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13:56:59 <skidd13> The stange thing is, it happens from time to time, I noticed it after the NewIndustries got in, but I can't really reproduce.
13:56:59 <skidd13> That's what I got in the console.
13:56:59 <skidd13> "Laden des Spieles fehlgeschlagen" = "Savegame loading aborted"
13:56:59 <skidd13> "Spielstandsdatei defekt" = "savegame corrupted" - Invalid chunk size
13:57:41 <skidd13> Hmm, still 3,8 GB free
14:01:26 <skidd13> If I notice it again I'll tell you
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14:03:28 <TrueBrain> idiotic Windows Media Encoder... it doesn't output a thing :s
14:03:45 <Phazorx> hmm... 11218 doesnt want to compile with AI bug
14:03:56 <Phazorx> In file included from /home/ottdcoop/svn-devserver/src/ai/ai.cpp:5:
14:03:56 <Phazorx> /home/ottdcoop/svn-devserver/src/ai/../variables.h:243: error: expected unqualified-id before '<<' token
14:04:33 <glx> search for <<<< and >>>> in this file
14:05:21 <Phazorx> $ cat src/variables.h | grep "<<<"
14:05:39 <glx> that is a conflict marker
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14:06:41 <Phazorx> and what do i do with that?
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14:07:34 <glx> compare the lines in conflict and fix it
14:08:07 <Phazorx> oh... some ancient patch i guess
14:17:12 <Bjarni> you will also get src/variables.h.* where * is rxxxx or mine... those should be deleted once you solved the conflict or svn will think that you still have it
14:17:51 <glx> just use "svn resolved src/variables.h"
14:27:05 <Phazorx> glx: there was a few patches i didnt know about applied
14:27:23 <Phazorx> i just cleaned them since theya re really outdated
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14:30:33 <nStensen> hi all, im trying to start a dedicated server on a machine running gentoo, but I get this in the log: "dbg: [NET] Server could not start network: bind() failed"
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14:32:09 <glx> nStensen: what did you set in server_bind_ip ?
14:32:51 <nStensen> server_bind_ip = 91.189.124.72
14:34:01 <nStensen> wont that make it bind to all IPs?
14:34:23 <glx> you can use a local ip too
14:34:50 <nStensen> hmm, it works now .. but I need it to bind to 91.189.124.72
14:35:10 <nStensen> I want to run several openttd servers running on different IPs instead of different ports
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14:35:14 <glx> why do you need it to bind to the external one?
14:36:55 <nStensen> i'm not sure I follow .. could you define "external"? I have 18 IPs on this server, and I only openttd to listen on one of these atm
14:39:46 <gfldex> nStensen: do you use any virtualization software on that machine?
14:41:17 <nStensen> yes, it's running openvz (openttd is in a vps) .. but I dont see why it wouldnt work, because it works when running on a VPS running debian
14:42:31 <gfldex> does openvz support linux capabilities?
14:48:34 <nStensen> after you found what's wrong with capabilities you can add missing capability to your VE with vzctl command.
14:50:08 <nStensen> guess I need to add "NET_BIND_SERVICE" ?
14:50:35 <Ailure> do we really need four diffrent newindustries threads in general? :)
14:53:25 <glx> Amix: no need to put one way on all tiles
14:53:49 <Amix> the city will destroy the design
14:54:10 <Amix> it will make crosses which i dont want it to make ;=)
14:54:31 <Amix> glx: ? i want the city to grow
14:55:08 <nStensen> ahh:) now it works :)
14:55:15 <nStensen> thanks for you help folks ;)
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14:55:29 <Amix> thats tram with its own track allmost
15:13:33 <Sionide> Amix, why not just use the existing road and lay the tram on top of it?
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15:27:10 <Ailure> this reminds me so about my Simcity 4 sessions :=
15:27:17 <Ailure> with one-way roads, avenues and highways
15:28:37 <Amix> Sionide: because tram isnt a good tram on roads
15:28:38 <Ailure> I use them alot in Simcity4
15:28:43 <hylje> imma gonna open a bunch of tickets for sc4 features on ottd
15:29:05 <hylje> Ailure: ottd revolves around trains and tracks, simcity around roads and vehicles
15:29:10 <Ailure> some dosen't translate as well to ottd
15:29:28 <Ailure> roads have no traffic other than trucks and buses
15:29:40 <hylje> ottd needs private traffic
15:29:42 <Ailure> but in Simcity4 there's all kind of automobiles
15:30:09 <Ailure> there's a lack of cars on thoose pictures
15:30:19 <Ailure> probably becuse I paused the game right away and then zoomed in
15:30:28 <Ailure> there's usually tons of cars there
15:30:37 <Ailure> it's high-traffic parts of my road network :P
15:30:48 <hylje> how does one build arbitrary bridges on sc?
15:31:02 <Ailure> the ones on the screenshot
15:31:09 <Ailure> was built with the help of a networkaddonmod
15:31:23 <Ailure> even in somewhat sucky u-drive-it mode
15:32:13 <Ailure> ...oh yeah there's a avenue with a tram track in the middle for that mod too
15:32:46 <Ailure> says lightrail/tram in the game :P
15:33:09 <hylje> when i get around to my ttd clone
15:33:22 <hylje> ill do that and go towards simcity when it comes to cities
15:33:37 <SpComb> forget your TTD clone and svn co myottd :(
15:34:02 <SpComb> SpBot was out of #tycoon for a week before anyone noticed
15:34:09 <SpComb> or at least before anyone bothered to tell me
15:34:23 <hylje> so what does myottd need
15:34:34 <hylje> for development and features
15:34:44 <Amix> Ailure: i am running openttd on morphos
15:34:51 <Amix> so i dont have simcity4 here
15:34:54 <SpComb> something along the lines of a feature-set compareable to autopilot
15:35:07 <SpComb> and then other things as needed
15:35:31 <SpComb> e.g. I got eis_os to create an XML-based API for GRF Crawler which I plan on using for some kind of NewGRF thing
15:36:11 <hylje> svn: Client error in parsing arguments
15:36:24 <SpComb> svn co svn://svn.martila.de/myottd/trunk
15:36:27 <Ailure> [17:33] <Amix> Ailure: i am running openttd on morphos
15:36:27 <Ailure> [17:33] <Amix> so i dont have simcity4 here
15:36:39 <Ailure> Simcity 4 is limited for Windows and any platform that Wine runs on
15:36:48 <Ailure> it runs faster in Wine than Windows according to most reports xD
15:37:51 <hylje> SpComb: so what else do i need?
15:38:06 <SpComb> in terms of dependancies, now?
15:38:23 <Amix> Ailure: simcity4 exsists for osx
15:38:38 <Ailure> I heard that version is rather quirky though
15:38:56 <hylje> mac ports of games fail when it comes to modding
15:39:21 <Ailure> but any added buildings
15:39:23 <Ammller> we have set up a NewIndustrie Server with PBI, if someone like to join: #openttdcoop.dev
15:39:25 <Ailure> won't have nightlits working
15:39:35 <Ailure> since the game have a day->night shift
15:39:48 <SpComb> well, python, twisted, pylons/paster, sqlalchemy should get you quite far along
15:44:24 <SpComb> I can't really help very much at the moment, we're preparing to start an Empire Earth game
15:44:51 <hylje> i have that game somewhere but heard it doesnt quite work on wine
15:45:21 * SpComb just commited a typo fix
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15:55:51 <Amix> a nice game would be GTA:Norway
16:00:10 <SpComb> hylje: oh, and postgresql as well, including psycopg2 and pypgsql (yes, both :P), I just commited a database dump as db_2.sql
16:00:29 <SpComb> we're still waiting for one player to join...
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16:04:07 <hylje> oh god these dependencies
16:04:25 <hylje> now does this thing come with a server?
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16:12:53 <Sacro> rail_cmd.cpp doesn't appear in solution explorer
16:14:53 <glx> look in Landscape subsection
16:17:50 <Sacro> not bad considering i don't have DXSDK or usefil.zip
16:20:40 <Sacro> *starts ripping the signalling section to shreds*
16:25:35 <SpComb> hylje: a server for what?
16:26:03 <SpComb> and yes, it does have a fair amount of dependancies, it's really meant to be run centrally...
16:26:25 <hylje> am i supposed to run apache to poke on it?
16:26:37 <SpComb> paster serve --reload development.ini
16:27:31 <SpComb> but the game continues -->
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17:12:16 <Sacro> glx: getting freetype errors :(
17:12:58 <glx> gnuwin32 libs are mingw ones
17:13:14 <Sacro> and that probably won't work :p
17:13:25 <Sacro> someone should remove the link to them from the wiki page
17:13:37 <glx> gcc can use .lib from msvc but the opposite fails ;)
17:13:56 <Sacro> still 8 unresolved externals
17:14:28 <glx> what are the missing symbols?
17:15:43 <Sacro> __imp_@FT_{Done_Face@4, LOAD_CHAR@12, Init_FreeType@4, Select_Charmap@8, New_Face@16, Render_Glyph@8, Set_Pixel_Sizes@12}
17:19:15 <Sacro> extracted include and lib
17:19:33 <Sacro> into a folder which i then pointed VS at
17:22:05 <Sacro> do i need to compile anything for freetype
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17:26:13 <Sacro> glx: it works fine when you paste them into the VC folder :s
17:26:40 <glx> I have them in VC folder :)
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17:34:57 <SquireJames> looking for a kind soul who can help me solve some of my compiling woes
17:35:34 <SquireJames> I'm using BuildOTTD and I'm trying to add the routemarkers patch to the latest nightly, so I can Pikkas Industries and routemarkers
17:35:52 <SquireJames> but, it just complains that the compile has failed, I can't seem to find any logs of why
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17:44:25 <SquireJames> right, okay, no answer, okay go simpler. Firstly, does the latest nightly r11208 hve newhouses support
17:45:01 <Sacro> most people tend to use a proper compiler
17:45:05 <Ailure> newhouses been in for a long long time now
17:45:12 <SquireJames> Hmm, I wonder why TTRS is having trouble then
17:45:31 <SquireJames> it seems to function, the new houses and roads appear, but in the newgrf menu it says disabled
17:45:53 <SquireJames> and as soon as i click apply or try and add any new grf, it seems to realise that its disabled and the towns return to normal
17:46:24 <Sacro> i have a PPC2003 emulator :\
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17:48:43 <toresbe> I like how the mines are over the tunnel
17:48:54 *** SquireJames has joined #openttd
17:49:05 <SquireJames> Whoops, i clicked the link and it logged me out
17:49:08 <Ammller> yeah, hopefully, they don't dig more there
17:49:15 <SquireJames> Could you perchance repost it?
17:49:34 <SquireJames> and do we have any idea why TTRS is suddenly throwing a fit?
17:51:07 <SquireJames> I see from the screenie, you have TTRS working
17:55:23 <Sacro> i need to find out how to convert blender to grf
17:55:31 *** Desolator has joined #openttd
17:55:35 <Sacro> or maybe pov-ray to grf
17:57:07 * Desolator slaps SquireJames around a bit with a large trout
17:57:40 <TrueBrain> Sacro: good luck :)
17:58:00 <Sacro> i have all the rails done
17:58:47 <glx> Desolator: did you see my post in ChrisIN thread?
17:59:24 <glx> your win9x build is not a win9x build
17:59:33 <Desolator> blame that on MinGW
17:59:53 <glx> no you didn't configure correctly
18:00:24 <Desolator> I followed the wiki article
18:01:12 <glx> you should do "configure --disable-unicode"
18:01:18 <Desolator> ok, i'll compile againb
18:03:30 <Ailure> command line interface
18:03:53 <Desolator> "or directly "make bundle_zip" (if you have zip CLI installed)"
18:03:54 <Ailure> which is graphical user interface
18:03:57 <Sacro> we got asked "What is a CLE"
18:04:21 <Desolator> well glx, what do you mean there?
18:04:36 <TrueBrain> that WinZip doesn't do it
18:05:32 <Desolator> TrueBrain: ok you confused me even more
18:05:56 <TrueBrain> Desolator: WinZip == GUI
18:06:24 *** Greyscale has joined #openttd
18:06:28 <Desolator> I guess I'll zip up it myself
18:07:09 <Desolator> (using IzArc, who wants to pay for something that's worse than a freeware app?)
18:08:14 <Desolator> (though I'm starting to kill Windoze & M$)
18:10:33 <Ailure> I love the mess I wind up with sometimes
18:11:44 <Ailure> that town form earlier
18:14:46 <SquireJames> I have to say, all of Pikkas work really makes OTTD for me
18:15:08 <SquireJames> UKRS, PBI, Brickchain, all brilliant and very British feeling
18:16:05 <Ailure> they go together well with the rest of the graphics too :P
18:16:36 <SquireJames> my only wish is that the roads on the industries could somehow be overidden with the TTRS roads
18:16:54 <SquireJames> but i can overlook them :) hmm i wonder if i can override the roads on TTRS with the UK Roadset?
18:17:09 <Ailure> heh I usually use TTRS
18:17:14 <Ailure> but I skipped TTRS this game for some reason
18:18:04 <dihedral> i want a newIndu game
18:18:29 <SquireJames> hmm no luck overriding, ah well
18:19:55 <simon_> the music is blasting crazy here at Tsim Sha Tsui
18:19:59 *** simon_ was kicked by DorpsGek (bye)
18:20:16 <SquireJames> this may sound odd
18:20:27 <SquireJames> but why kick him? Is he a troublemaker?
18:20:34 <simon_> hmm, what was that for?
18:20:35 <dihedral> how do i make use of newindustries ?
18:20:45 <mcbane> never greet someone with hello punks. =D
18:20:46 *** Diabolic-Angel has joined #openttd
18:20:46 <SquireJames> dihedral, you will need some grf sets
18:20:50 <Desolator> you download a nightly and use a newindustries grf
18:20:52 <TrueBrain> at least mcbane gets it
18:21:06 <SquireJames> either ECS, or if your a brit or like british things, go for PBI
18:21:23 *** Greyscale has joined #openttd
18:21:25 <SquireJames> they may work together, i'm not sure if they cause some interesting conflictions
18:21:45 <simon_> I got too many wifi networks here
18:21:54 <Ailure> Probably try ECS after I played with PBI
18:22:01 <simon_> I am in the main nightclub area of tsim sha tsui
18:22:19 <simon_> this place is awake all night
18:22:31 <mcbane> but use low industries as there will be a lot on the map (high = colorful map)
18:22:40 <simon_> the only time it is quiet is in between 6:30-9AM
18:23:41 <simon_> and there is a traffic jam outside
18:23:57 <simon_> through out the whole day there is not traffic jams
18:24:04 <simon_> only after 1AM do they start
18:24:29 <Ailure> [20:21] <mcbane> but use low industries as there will be a lot on the map (high = colorful map)
18:24:40 <simon_> I got some labels I need to remove from boxes
18:24:41 <Ailure> heh I forgot to do this for PBI, and ECS seems to have more industries
18:24:50 <simon_> any one got any ideas?
18:24:56 <Ailure> it got little cluttered around some towns
18:25:01 <Desolator> what labels & what boxes?
18:25:06 <Ailure> but the industries close down on their own after awhile so oh well :p
18:25:20 <simon_> Desolator: cardboard boxes and paper labels
18:26:34 <simon_> Desolator: you don't know of any magic alcohol that will not ruin the box but get the paper off?
18:27:20 <simon_> I am using a pocket knife to get under the paper and left it up but it is very slow and I poked a hole in the box once already
18:29:56 <TrueBrain> we glad you do Amix :)
18:30:23 <Desolator> We'd love it more if you could announce an estimated release date of 0.6 RC1 ;)
18:30:38 <TrueBrain> @kick Desolator When It Is Done
18:30:38 *** Desolator was kicked by DorpsGek (When It Is Done)
18:30:47 <TrueBrain> damn, that felt good
18:30:52 *** Desolator has joined #openttd
18:31:10 <Desolator> I said *estimated*...
18:31:51 * Desolator warns TrueBrain that he doesn't really love stupid kicks
18:32:06 <TrueBrain> Desolator: it wasn't stupid, so that is a plus
18:32:29 <TrueBrain> you are free to have your opinion :)
18:32:38 <simon_> TrueBrain: come on... don't do that to people
18:32:40 <Prof_Frink> Desolator: Between a minute and a century.
18:32:57 <Desolator> it would have been easier to type it directly and less annoying for me
18:33:00 <simon_> but you miss out on the channel which gets annoying
18:33:11 <TrueBrain> Desolator: but don't worry, it isn't personal: I kcik everyone asking for a release date, with that very same message
18:33:11 <Desolator> Prof_Frink: kinda...long...
18:33:15 <TrueBrain> I should add it to DorpsGek...
18:33:29 <Amix> also thank for morphos support :) as osnews person wrote. its something special with amigaos thats so different from other operating systems which is necessary to bring on into the future.
18:33:37 <TrueBrain> Amix: you use MorphOS?!?!?! :P
18:33:54 <TrueBrain> wow, that I experience that in my life...
18:34:06 <TrueBrain> a person who really uses the MorphOS version...
18:34:23 <Amix> but not as active as me telling that
18:35:24 <simon_> I use much more than morphos
18:37:02 <TrueBrain> Amix: does the nightly also still work on MorphOS?
18:38:15 <Amix> this is nightly with trams ;)
18:38:24 <Desolator> TrueBrain, why did you left "mainstrea" dev?
18:38:41 <TrueBrain> Desolator: keep trying :p
18:39:14 <TrueBrain> Desolator: and I did? I can't remember if I did ot nor did, I confuse myself :(
18:39:42 <Desolator> well I barely see you commiting to SVN
18:39:57 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
18:40:26 <Desolator> btw, any dev on Windoze here?
18:40:53 *** toresbe has joined #openttd
18:41:11 <TrueBrain> Desolator: last commit was just 21 days ago... didn't know you are degreded that fast in this community :p
18:45:23 <Amix> TrueBrain: i am using morphos, macosx, win2k and symbian daily
18:45:37 <TrueBrain> hehe :) Good choices ;)
18:45:56 <Noldo> I don't love this XP I'm forced to use
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18:46:40 <Amix> if BeOS did well, BeOS could be a hero os :)
18:48:20 <TrueBrain> now I need to remember my Steam password :(
18:48:21 <Bjarni> after all there are very few heroes and very few BeOS users
18:49:41 <Bjarni> TrueBrain: the key (or password if you like) is to add coal in an even load (not a pile in the middle) and you will do fine ;)
18:52:48 <Amix> Bjarni: well.. BeOS had potential
18:53:45 <Bjarni> that's likely, but odds that it will get though today are... well not in the BeOS favour
18:55:47 <Amix> its kinda ironic that the slowest oses survive
18:56:00 <toresbe> no it isn't... they're harder to shut down
18:56:11 <toresbe> "oh, screw it, I'll just stick with Windows..."
18:56:50 <Noldo> the OS race has never been about technical superiority
18:57:16 <Amix> its the gamers that have pushed hardware producers
18:57:19 <Noldo> but I wonder how much resources does it take to "keep an OS alive"
18:57:39 <TrueBrain> MorphOS is still alive
18:57:44 <Amix> Noldo: you need a community, a trusted company etc
18:58:02 <Amix> community can survive without company though
18:58:07 <Bjarni> you don't need a trusted company
18:58:20 <Bjarni> look at some linux distributions
18:58:32 <Amix> well, linux is open sourced
18:58:44 <Amix> i thought we talked about commercial oses
18:59:49 <Rafagd> anyone has a link to the video of that dude who drives a box? o.o
19:00:38 <Amix> TrueBrain: MorphOS is alive because there are bunch of hardcore Amiga fanatics which loves it. Its only alive because of its community thru forum, irc and the web. I bet that without the net, AmigaOS, MorphOS and all minor oses would die much quicker. So you could say that Internet is pretty much a hero for small oses :)
19:01:35 <Amix> just look at www.amigaworld.net
19:01:42 <Bjarni> I don't think OpenTTD would be anything without the internet either
19:01:44 <Amix> how many hates Amiga Inc.
19:01:57 <Amix> but they stick to their oses, because thats what others have
19:02:10 <mcbane> i hate them for beeing sold to stupid ppls.
19:03:38 <Amix> and then you read the comments
19:03:58 <Amix> from the CEO of Amiga Inc.
19:19:52 <TrueBrain> I tried like 10 things
19:19:54 <TrueBrain> and they all failed
19:20:13 <TrueBrain> I wanted to convert a x264 to wmv3(VC1), but it failed to do what it was supposed to do (Windows Media Encoder)
19:20:24 <TrueBrain> I am trying to install Steam, but both Cedega as Wine don't feel like it
19:20:36 <TrueBrain> I am trying to disassemble a DOS application and recompile it
19:20:39 <TrueBrain> but it doesn't let me
19:33:56 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: could ofcourse break the negative thingy...
19:34:04 <Rubidium> you could try to get kicked from #openttd ;)
19:34:17 <TrueBrain> @kick TrueBrain be kicked
19:34:17 *** TrueBrain was kicked by DorpsGek (be kicked)
19:34:20 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
19:34:48 <Rubidium> don't know, the negative spiral has at least been broken ;)
19:34:54 <Rubidium> now you've tried 11 things and not all failed
19:35:10 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: what DOS app are you trying to disassemble?
19:37:04 <Bjarni> TrueBrain: why would you disassemble populous and then recompile it?
19:37:18 <Bjarni> are you gaining anything that DosBox can't do?
19:37:21 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: because I want to
19:37:33 <TrueBrain> Rafagd: abandonware of course
19:37:49 <Rafagd> i've only seen that game 1 time
19:38:18 <Rafagd> i've ever wanted to play that game =(
19:39:20 <Bjarni> I still have it for my Amiga 500
19:39:29 <Bjarni> that is, if the disk still works
19:41:35 <Bjarni> networking with Amiga 500 was kind of cool, but not really useful
19:41:51 <Bjarni> I can't remember anything good MP networking games
19:42:03 <Bjarni> stuntcar racer worked on network, but besides that
19:52:43 <simon_> what new features have been added to the nightly in the past month and half that I have been away partying?
19:53:14 *** De_Ghost has joined #openttd
19:53:15 <simon_> any info about what that is?
19:53:48 <Rubidium> hmm, glx must be talking to someone I'm ignoring
19:54:06 <Rubidium> or that is at least the most logical explanation of his sudden "newindustries"
19:58:23 <Bjarni> because I also only see the "newindustries" line
19:58:30 <simon_> Rubidium: you still remember who I am!
19:58:42 <simon_> It has been more than a month!
19:58:45 <glx> he can't see what you say
19:59:00 <simon_> I am back in Hong Kong now
19:59:12 <Bjarni> one can only imagine this conversation based on what glx says
19:59:20 <simon_> glx: yes he can... he just pretends he can't.
19:59:36 <Bjarni> ok, cleared the ignore list
20:00:32 * Bjarni wonders why simon_ was on ignore
20:00:46 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: I suggest you put him on ignore again
20:00:48 <TrueBrain> really, a good idea
20:01:12 <simon_> Bjarni: I don't know... I haven't been here for months
20:01:20 <simon_> maybe someone else uses this nick
20:02:00 <Bjarni> we are being nice to him, right :P
20:03:20 <simon_> you never ignored me all those months ago when we were friends
20:04:57 <Sacro> how would i go from a rending to a grf :(
20:04:57 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: just: you are
20:05:34 <Bjarni> I just don't know what it is
20:06:14 <Bjarni> I bet simon_ said something stupid again
20:07:02 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: please spear us the details of your ignore-list
20:07:18 <Bjarni> simon_: why did I put you on ignore ages ago?
20:07:44 <Bjarni> I guess he won't answer me
20:09:47 <hylje> i'm reading pbf and seeing the sillyness here
20:10:32 <Bjarni> some sort of mirror plane of pdf?
20:11:24 <Amix> i see there are demonstrations in Denmark again Bjarni
20:12:25 <Bjarni> last I heard on the news was that they arrested 300 people
20:12:51 <Bjarni> and a political party encouraged the bullies to move on even when told to stop
20:13:00 <Bjarni> so it will be interesting to see what happens next
20:13:21 <Bjarni> political parties aren't allowed to tell people to ignore direct orders from the police
20:24:43 <Amix> ASTRA promovideo from 1990
20:28:06 <Sacro> we can do ottd models with lightwave?
20:34:46 <Sacro> just no way of rendering them into the game
20:34:58 <Sacro> cos i dunno how to use blender, povray or lightwave
20:36:18 <Bjarni> back then you could build your own decoder without any problems
20:36:55 <Bjarni> now those bastards use digital encryption so a simple setup of capacitors and resistors can't fix signal anymore
20:37:38 <Bjarni> I once saw schematics for a circuit that could break any encoding (at that time)
20:38:10 <Bjarni> it had a variable resistor and all you had to do was to turn it until it cleared up the signal
20:38:33 <Bjarni> and then you hit the frequency they used to scramble the signal and you could watch all the stuff you like
20:38:52 <Bjarni> go figure why they changed that system :P
20:38:58 <huma> i wish i was good at this stuff
20:39:13 <Bjarni> it's a thing of the past
20:39:41 <TrueBrain> wow, djgpp seems to be able to cmopile for dos :)
20:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Bjarni> simon_: why did I put you on ignore ages ago? <- i have logs of "ages ago", are you really that interested?
20:40:07 <huma> Bjarni: so you never touch your soldering iron now?
20:40:51 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: I remember now.. he is the guy, who claimed to be in Hong Kong using an .au domain and he didn't know shit about Hong Kong
20:41:02 <Bjarni> and he said all sorts of other silly stuff like that
20:41:11 <Bjarni> didn't know shit about Hong Kong either
20:41:33 <huma> em.. you repeat yourself :)
20:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i remembered from his line "<simon_> I am back in Hong Kong now"
20:41:44 <Bjarni> huma: you do and you can make stuff that works... you just can't use it to break the modern ways of encoding pay channels
20:42:11 <huma> maybe he was using the aussie proxy? :)
20:42:35 <Bjarni> <huma> em.. you repeat yourself :) <-- that's on purpose. I use repetition to make sure that you remember what I try to tell you
20:42:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: no, now you go to the next best forum and get a key there
20:42:56 <huma> Bjarni: well, at least you can still mock up useful or funny things
20:43:05 <Bjarni> <huma> maybe he was using the aussie proxy? :) <-- no... he wasn't. He wasn't using is brain either
20:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> to use with your player plugin
20:43:14 <huma> Bjarni: ok, just don't use recursion :)
20:44:10 <huma> Bjarni: is there a good book on soldering simple stuff?
20:44:22 <huma> Bjarni: guess it's never late to start
20:44:40 <Bjarni> but I have no need to read it... you see, I already know how to do this ;)
20:44:54 <huma> Bjarni: you could be like a.. inspiration :)
20:45:09 * Bjarni is an engineer in the field of electronics
20:45:17 <huma> Bjarni: i suppose you haven't known it all your life :)
20:45:33 <huma> Bjarni: recommend me some book :)
20:46:07 <Bjarni> what do you want to make? :)
20:46:20 <huma> yes, it is when you know too much about the field :)
20:46:53 <huma> well.. something like this for a start.. wait, let me find the link..
20:47:22 <Bjarni> if you want to say make a device to check if all windows are closed in your house, then you wouldn't need to know about how to handle frequency filtering
20:47:52 <Bjarni> that is, unless you decide to actually use a certain frequency to avoid problems with static electricity and 50 Hz noise
20:48:13 *** svippery is now known as svip
20:51:07 <huma> i think he's gone to make one for his cat :)
20:52:00 <Bjarni> you need a really quick shutter speed if this should work
20:52:12 <Bjarni> you see, it's kind of hard to tell the cat to stand still while taking pictures
20:52:34 <Bjarni> <huma> or.. yourself :) <-- why would I want a whole lot of pictures of IRC?
20:52:42 <huma> i'm not sure this tiny camera has any means to control shutter speed :)
20:53:35 <huma> you could call it a scrotcam though :)
20:56:46 <Bjarni> this camera is perfect
20:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> on trip 2, there's a "on the run" picture
20:58:00 <Bjarni> I can place it under the frame and record bogie movements while driving and it's not a big loss if the camera is lost
20:58:51 <Bjarni> but it's too dangerous to place yourself at that location while driving ;)
21:06:23 <Bjarni> Big moment no. 1: attach the collar with the camera to the cat. The reaction was not very happy but finally accepted. Reality check passed :-)
21:10:29 <huma> yea, the guy is funny :)
21:11:20 <Ammller> Cannot find user-level thread for LWP 32465: generic error
21:11:28 <Ammller> thats the output of my dbg
21:14:13 *** Greyscale has joined #openttd
21:14:25 <Bjarni> dammit, can't find any local dealer of VistaQuest
21:16:47 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11219 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (199 files in 17 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r11035:11218.
21:17:31 <Bjarni> nahh, I guess I will make somebody in Germany or UK send it to me
21:17:53 <Bjarni> I just need to find some fool... err... naive person with a visa card
21:23:38 <Bjarni> but I'm too cheap to pay for getting one
21:23:56 <Bjarni> you see, I really rarely need it and they charge you an arm and a leg for just having it
21:24:31 <Bjarni> buying anything on the net inside the country allows me to use my debit card, which is almost free of fees (unlike visa)
21:24:47 <ln-> but how do you pay on itunes?
21:25:15 <Bjarni> also using a local card gives me better protection against fraught, both in the sense that it can only be used in Denmark and in the law
21:25:55 <Bjarni> <ln-> but how do you pay on itunes? <-- I don't use iTune store. I rarely buy music anyway (which results in me listening to the same music again and again)
21:25:55 <huma> ln-: there's soulseek for that :)
21:26:37 <Bjarni> I don't use p2p to get music either
21:27:31 <Bjarni> it takes me say 10 minutes to get to a real music store and then I will avoid all that DMA crap
21:27:44 <Bjarni> ok, maybe it can take 15 minutes, but still
21:28:00 <ln-> Bjarni: just for comparison; i pay 20€ per year for a Visa.
21:28:48 <Bjarni> 20... I think that's a bit cheaper than what I can get
21:29:50 <Bjarni> but if I only use it say twice a year, it will be an extra €10 on each purchase and if the purchases are like €16 each, then it's a fee that really matters
21:30:10 <ln-> with 20€ the per-month limit for purchases is 1000€.
21:30:16 *** Tefad_ is now known as Tefad
21:30:45 <ln-> Bjarni: don't worry, when you have one, you just happen to order all fancy stuff from amazon.com and others a lot more frequently.
21:30:51 <Bjarni> the limit isn't 1000€ if you don't have 1000€ :P
21:31:30 <Bjarni> I better not buy amazon.com or anything else that fancy
21:31:53 <Bjarni> you see I don't have a job, so whenever I spend money I have to consider how to get more :(
21:32:29 <Rubidium> the idea of a credit card is that you pay afterwards, so you don't need money at the moment of actually paying
21:32:55 <Bjarni> newsflash: if I don't have the money afterwards, then the problem is still there
21:33:03 <ln-> Bjarni: wrong, the limit _is_ 1000€ even if i don't have that much.
21:33:15 <Bjarni> besides they add fees for using money you don't have
21:33:29 <Rubidium> you can delay all paying with about a month
21:33:45 <Bjarni> wouldn't do me any good
21:33:46 <Rubidium> effectively leaving you with the "pay" of month
21:34:13 <Bjarni> I would still need to find the cash somehow
21:34:27 <Rubidium> get a proper job for a few hours in the week
21:34:35 <ln-> Bjarni: you can withdraw cash from an ATM with the credit card.
21:34:57 <Bjarni> guys, you are missing the point
21:35:22 <Bjarni> if I don't have a visa card, then I don't have to spend money on it and I don't NEED the stuff it offers
21:36:36 <Bjarni> if I don't have [money], then I don't have to spend money on it and I don't NEED the stuff it offers?
21:36:47 <Bjarni> I guess I don't really need money as it is now
21:37:01 <Bjarni> but it does leave me without buying new stuff
21:40:43 <ln-> when are you switching to euros?
21:41:11 <Bjarni> we have a financial benefit from not using euros
21:41:21 <Rubidium> he's still using pebbles
21:42:14 <toresbe> Bjarni: Swede, or Brit? I'm guessing Swede...
21:42:15 <Bjarni> also technically our constitution prevents us from giving other countries the option of making certain financial decisions like the interest and inflation of our currency
21:42:29 <ln-> Bjarni: it's not about the financial benefit, it's about the treaties you have already signed.
21:42:48 <ln-> toresbe: don't insult him.
21:42:53 <Bjarni> we didn't sign anything telling us to use euro
21:43:10 <toresbe> Sweden is in no way committed to switching to the Euro.
21:43:17 <Bjarni> we added an exception to the treaty telling that the euro part (and 3 other parts) don't include Denmark
21:43:28 <ln-> Bjarni: the finnish constitution stated that the monetary unit in finland is markka, and how much did that matter?
21:43:46 <toresbe> ln-: Constitutions can change.
21:43:57 <toresbe> Here in Norway, ours just did, quite significantly
21:44:42 <Bjarni> besides it can be rather hard to find a qualified majority of the politicians to enable it when the population is against it
21:45:12 <Bjarni> toresbe: what new stupid law did you add?
21:45:18 <gfldex> you mean those 2 other contries that found a nice lumb of oil in north sea?
21:45:27 <gfldex> no wonder why they dont want to be part of euro land
21:45:39 <gfldex> oil prices are made in $
21:45:44 <toresbe> Bjarni: didn't add anything. A deprecated law was removed.
21:46:22 <toresbe> it's a technicality referring to the separation of two houses of parliament that had been equivalent for near a century.
21:46:33 <Bjarni> <gfldex> oil prices are made in $ <-- I'm not talking about oil prices, though our oil reserves aren't any bad at the current prices
21:47:37 <gfldex> you use nearly as much as you drig from the ground and it's getting less already
21:47:45 <gfldex> you will have the euro very soonish :)
21:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> in Hessen, they are afraid to try to remove the death penalty from the constitution
21:48:05 <Bjarni> it's more like if it goes bad in Germany, then Germany will have to use their financial tools to recover (the euro prohibits most of those tools, leaving in this case Germany in a poor situation). Being outside of the euro, the big countries to the south will not pull us down
21:48:08 <toresbe> basically, the party representatives would decide on a law in one room, then cross the hallway and put the law into the Norwegian Law in a different "House" which hasn't been a different house since 1866
21:48:14 <SquireJames> Can you have multiple track waypoints in OpenTTD
21:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> because of the possibility that the attempt might fail
21:48:20 <Bjarni> well, not as much. Germany is still a great export market
21:48:33 <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: hessen has death penalty?
21:48:45 <toresbe> Bjarni: The entire point of the EU was to fuse the European governments to such an extent that another European war was impossible.
21:48:50 <Bjarni> DKK is a stronger currency than EUR
21:48:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: federal law overrides that
21:48:53 <SquireJames> at the moment i am using stations with non-stop, but it would be easier if i could have a multi-track waypoint
21:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> but technically, it's still in their constitution
21:49:07 <ln-> btw, the king of finland was the prince of hessen.
21:49:22 <toresbe> Bjarni: that's a relatively absurd claim. The EUR is far stronger by force of inertia and versatility of commerce.
21:49:34 <Bjarni> <toresbe> Bjarni: The entire point of the EU was to fuse the European governments to such an extent that another European war was impossible. <-- I think this is an odd argument. Everywhere else somebody tried to do that it ended in civil war
21:49:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, and the king of england was the duke of hannover
21:49:51 <gfldex> a stronger currency is bad if you are an export oriented country, what germany is
21:50:05 <gfldex> our economy dont really want a strong currency
21:50:13 <toresbe> Hell, Germany is a larger exporter than China.
21:50:15 <gfldex> yes you can have more then one SquireJames
21:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> in the 17th/18th century was very common for people to have titles in multiple countries
21:50:29 <Bjarni> <toresbe> Bjarni: that's a relatively absurd claim. The EUR is far stronger by force of inertia and versatility of commerce. <-- stronger in the sense of being more stable and presumed stable in the future
21:50:54 <toresbe> Bjarni: it's working quite well. The EU is a decent idea, and the world could do with Europe as a superpower.
21:51:32 <SpComb> There's Amixii in the channel
21:51:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's why in the early days, it was called "King in Prussia", instead of "King of Prussia"
21:51:45 <Bjarni> the main problem is that EU is used for absurd ideas like making a law that prohibits selling cucumbers if they are too curved
21:51:52 <gfldex> we dont want to be a super power. it would mean we would have to fuck up other ppl
21:51:58 <gfldex> that is not our intent
21:52:04 <SquireJames> How do I make one gfldex
21:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> because the guy had titles in a dozen more countries
21:52:30 <gfldex> you should have a button for creating waypoints in the track toolbar
21:52:33 <Bjarni> the problem is that the EU structure isn't stable
21:52:40 <toresbe> Bjarni: consumer interest laws are a Good Thing, even though their minutae are debatable.
21:52:41 <Bjarni> specially not after adding even more countries
21:52:45 <SquireJames> Everytime I place a waypoint next to another it becomes a new waypoint, regardless as to whether there join stations is on
21:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> e.g he was "Kurfürst in Brandenburg"
21:52:53 <gfldex> it seams to work out quite well Bjarni
21:53:00 <SquireJames> What I am after is making a waypoint go across multiple tracks
21:53:05 <toresbe> Bjarni: We Norwegians are very happy about Poland being added. We are starved for a workforce.
21:53:11 <gfldex> the problems of low price markets in the east solved itself
21:53:27 <gfldex> they got the same prices and payments as we do now
21:53:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> they then agglomerated more and more territories through titles
21:53:46 <Bjarni> <toresbe> Bjarni: consumer interest laws are a Good Thing, even though their minutae are debatable. <-- didn't help us at all. In fact if leaves people in Denmark in a bit worse position if something breaks after say 8 months and you want warranty to fix it
21:53:51 <gfldex> i think you cant do that SquireJames
21:54:07 <toresbe> gfldex: the hell they do
21:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> (including east prussia, which was a very outer territory)
21:54:21 <SquireJames> ah, well okays, i'll stick to my non-stop station method then
21:54:23 <toresbe> gfldex: which is why we can hire construction workers for pennies to the building here in Norway
21:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> only much later the called the whole country prussia
21:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> then it was changed to "King of Prussia"
21:54:51 <Bjarni> <gfldex> it seams to work out quite well Bjarni <-- not really... whenever something important comes up, then they can't agree
21:55:31 <gfldex> that was that constitution problem with poland and that was a press problem. that does not apply to day by day business
21:55:40 <gfldex> hot air doenst count even in the EU :)
21:56:20 <gfldex> toresbe: that's true but the money is leaving your country and get's exchanged into their currency and thus your whole economy get's a los
21:56:37 <Bjarni> btw EU is trying to force Denmark to change a law that says that only people who worked in Denmark can get a retirement paid by the government in Denmark. EU wants all citizens to be equal so all retired people can move to Denmark and get a pension from the government even if they never paid any taxes in Denmark
21:57:02 <gfldex> Eddi, may it be that wikipedia is your start page in mozilla? :->
21:57:06 <huma> how about localized town styles in openttd? like italian, french, swedish, etc?
21:57:25 <Bjarni> naturally we object because all countries would break from such a condition and go bankrupt and then EU will fine us for not listening
21:57:34 <toresbe> gfldex: the money we are paying them is going toward lowering property prices (because we simply cannot find construction workers enough)
21:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> gfldex: why would i do either of those things? (wikipedia as startpage, or use mozilla)
21:58:10 <toresbe> property prices for commerce is a major problem in Oslo, and there are tons of constructions underway.
21:58:18 <toresbe> we have the money, but not the builders :)
21:58:26 <gfldex> Eddi|zuHause2: to be able to post even more wikipedia links?
21:58:43 <Bjarni> toresbe: we have the same issue. Poland has the same issue, xxx has the same issue
21:58:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> i posted exactly one wikipedia link today...
21:58:57 <Bjarni> I don't see how Poland joining EU helped preventing this case
21:59:02 <gfldex> you are below your rate then. shame on you!
21:59:08 <SquireJames> If you ask me, we brits have the right idea, I just wish we were less influenced by the US
21:59:35 <toresbe> Bjarni: it helped because otherwise it would not be feasible for the Polacks to enter Norway to work.
21:59:53 <toresbe> the leaking of money into Poland isn't a problem in the long term, as the European economies fuse ever closer.
21:59:56 <SquireJames> but with Brown as PM now, maybe we will be, Blair was so far up GW Bush's backside you couldn't tell where one began and the other ended
22:01:52 <Bjarni> <toresbe> the leaking of money into Poland isn't a problem in the long term, as the European economies fuse ever closer. <-- this is never going to work. ALL financial experts claims that EU is not built on solid financial ground. In fact it's bound to fail, but the politicians moves on anyway and for some reason the media doesn't really investigate why the financial experts warns about this
22:02:43 <toresbe> "ALL financial experts" is so biased it barely warrants a response.
22:03:01 <gfldex> if you got a lot forein workes they are going to exchange into their currency you create (artificial) need for your own currency. that means relative price to other currency goes up. that means it gets more expensive to buy foreign currency what you need to import stuff. ATM that's not a problem because you can keep it in balance with selling oil. But that will change.
22:03:17 <Bjarni> <toresbe> "ALL financial experts" is so biased it barely warrants a response. <-- well, prove me wrong then :)
22:03:49 <toresbe> No. Do you really think that the EU would even begin to happen if as you say, everyone with a clue about finance opposed it?
22:03:57 <Bjarni> and I mean a real expert, not just a self proclaimed expert
22:04:00 <gfldex> Bjarni: they dont do worry much because it works for the US since decades
22:04:21 <toresbe> In fact, when it comes to political parties, the more traditionally financially oriented the parties become, the stronger they favour EU membership, in most cases.
22:04:37 <toresbe> Of course, in Norway it's a no-brainer: Joining EU would be truly disasterous.
22:04:50 <toresbe> for the economy, and for the environment.
22:05:14 <toresbe> It is in the EUs short-term interest that oil and gas prices be low. The interests of Norway, and the environment, are the opposite.
22:05:17 <Bjarni> the US has problems as well due to this. They are transmitting a whole lot of money between the states in order not to bankrupt states and close most jobs in them
22:05:20 <toresbe> huma: I find it to be truly fascinating.
22:05:42 <toresbe> Bjarni: not so. The US system is idiotic for entirely different reasons.
22:05:56 <Bjarni> also the US has a fundamental difference. It allows bigger difference between the states than EU will allow between the countries
22:06:15 <gfldex> the US is in trouble because their currency is not covered anymore. It wasn't with gold and it isnt with economics growth
22:06:39 <gfldex> but they dont care because so many other contries have so much $s that they simply dont know where to put them
22:06:45 <gfldex> so they end up in the US
22:07:13 <gfldex> in the end they will let their currency crash and make anybody else a long nose
22:07:15 <Bjarni> <huma> politics is boring.. <-- idiot :P
22:07:45 <huma> Bjarni: you're biased :)
22:08:01 <gfldex> being biased is what politics is all about
22:08:16 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: truelight * r11220 /trunk/Makefile.in: -Fix r11217: not all gmakes allow "" in ifeq (go figure)
22:08:19 <huma> that's why it's boring :)
22:08:20 <Bjarni> idiot: word originates from ancient Greek and means a man, who do not pay interest in politics
22:08:57 <Bjarni> so I will claim by rights to call huma an idiot if he claims politics to be boring
22:09:15 <Sacro> from the latin "poly" meaning many
22:09:23 <Sacro> and "tics" meaning blood sucking leeches
22:09:28 <huma> "Idiot is a word derived from the Greek ???????, idi?t?s ("person lacking professional skill," "a private citizen," "individual")"
22:10:08 <gfldex> you got that wrong Bjarni. Idiots where not allowed to vote or getting elected. What put them at the same level with women and foreigners. What is a bit mean.
22:10:25 <huma> etymology is fascinating though
22:10:26 <Bjarni> I read the other thing...
22:10:38 <Bjarni> I wonder if the book got it wrong
22:11:02 <Bjarni> but if a person had no rights to vote, he was likely not very interested in politics, at least not as interested as the voters
22:11:31 <Bjarni> not to mention the teacher said the same thing
22:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> huma: your client is broken
22:12:13 <huma> gfldex: from that point of view it's funny how feminism and idiotism turned out
22:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> huma: more specifically, your utf8 characters are replaced by '?'
22:12:46 <Sacro> facebook is good for stalking
22:13:03 <Bjarni> <huma> gfldex: from that point of view it's funny how feminism and idiotism turned out <-- yeah... the US idiotists even elected one of their own as president
22:13:22 *** Rubidium_ has joined #openttd
22:13:39 <huma> damn, you got me into it after all! :)
22:13:41 <gfldex> do you call religious ppl idiots nowadays?
22:14:06 *** Rubidium_ is now known as Rubidium
22:14:11 <Sacro> you stupid danish person
22:14:14 <huma> i try to not label anyone
22:14:14 <gfldex> with what kind of religion would you be cool with?
22:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> but you do know that the majority of the gene pool in america is from poor immigrants who were often low peasants in their homecountry
22:14:48 <Bjarni> Sacro: I didn't say anything about what religion I referred to
22:15:07 <huma> Eddi|zuHause2: how about the australian gene pool? :)
22:15:08 <Bjarni> in fact I was thinking about Jehovah's witnesses and stuff like that
22:15:19 <gfldex> like the ppl from Hessen that got sold to fight for england?
22:15:25 <Sacro> System.Console.WriteLine("Bored");
22:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> it was only in the mid 19th century when lots of highly decorated scientists went there
22:15:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> (usually jewish people expelled from germany)
22:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> er, i mean the 20th century
22:16:42 <Bjarni> I will upload a pic to prevent him from getting even more bored
22:16:46 <gfldex> and most ppl left europe because their religion got them at trouble at home
22:16:46 <huma> Bjarni: i told you, politics is.. :)
22:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's why the two politically important groups in america are idiots and jews
22:16:59 <gfldex> that's at least true for germany and england
22:17:18 * huma waits for a nsfw picture from Bjarni
22:17:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> actually, in germany, the religion thing was fought out
22:17:59 <huma> i hope the latter will come to power next term :)
22:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> 30 years war, 1618-1648
22:18:20 <Bjarni> there are two pictures on my camera that I don't recall taking
22:18:26 <gfldex> that you declare the war to be over after 30 years does not mean that you agree with each other
22:18:33 <huma> Bjarni: you're getting old :)
22:18:35 <gfldex> it just means you are out of ammo
22:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> in the end, neither side won, and the country was totally devastated
22:19:05 <Bjarni> <huma> Bjarni: you're getting old :) <-- I'm more thinking like "who took my camera while I was elsewhere"
22:19:22 <gfldex> a lot land switched hands and preussen got a good head start
22:19:27 <gfldex> wasnt all the bad in the end
22:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, a pretty large group of german immigrants were soldiers, who were forced to fight on the english side in the independence war
22:19:33 <Bjarni> I presume asking the person in the picture would solve this :)
22:22:16 *** Greyscale_ has joined #openttd
22:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> gfldex: yeah, the father of the guy in the wikipedia link was a major agitator in the "Westfälischer Frieden", he got quite a lot of land through diplomacy that way
22:23:04 <Bjarni> I took this picture earlier this week
22:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> they use Windows?!?
22:24:02 <Bjarni> I didn't really figure out why they prefer to sit in the dark. When I asked they replied that they just want to do so
22:24:47 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause2> they use Windows?!? <-- it sure looks like it. Makes you wonder why more than 80% of the delays are caused by signal issues
22:24:57 <Bjarni> I think that's delays more than 3 or 5 minutes
22:25:36 <Bjarni> a train being delayed 1 or 2 minutes in departure due to a child carriage or something is not included in those statistics
22:25:50 <gfldex> the invention of LCD displays is the salvation of such work places i bet
22:26:20 <gfldex> think of that in terms of CRTs. what would be 1kW heating for each work place
22:27:05 <Bjarni> actually I was once in an EMU and two guys went from the cab to the middle of the train, opened a closet like device and pressed a few buttons. The lights and all sounds died and then they pressed a few more buttons and everything started to come back. One of them then said "now it will be ready in 3 minutes"
22:27:13 <Bjarni> they really rebooted the train o_O
22:28:07 <gfldex> in some regional trains in germany you can see voltage displays of the train as a passanger
22:28:29 <gfldex> if you had the right key you even could switch the train off :)
22:28:41 <Bjarni> I have seen voltage gauges and pressure gauges in passengers cars... it's not like it's odd
22:29:43 <Bjarni> I once saw some settings for a car (I think it's scrapped now). It was behind a glass cover so the staff could see the setup without opening, but it also meant that everybody else could see it
22:29:59 <Bjarni> it had interesting switches, like turning taillights on and off
22:30:07 <Bjarni> switching between steam and electrical heating
22:30:15 <Bjarni> turn the indoor lights on and off
22:30:37 <Bjarni> I don't think they maintained the steam part of it anymore though
22:31:05 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: glx * r11221 /branches/noai/ (118 files in 10 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r11145:11220
22:31:34 <gfldex> that's why they dont use steam engines in the winter anymore :)
22:32:33 <Bjarni> the diesel engines used to have a boiler to produce steam to heat up the cars
22:32:55 <Bjarni> I think the last "normal" train using this system in Denmark drove it's last trip in 1989
22:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> most german diesel engines were equipped with electrical heating
22:33:36 <gfldex> that one is still going with 2 steam trains in the middle of germany
22:33:54 <Bjarni> the issue is not to produce the electricity. It was that when DSB moved from steam to diesel (starting in 1954) they had a whole lot of cars that had steam heating only
22:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's narrow gauge :p
22:34:19 <Bjarni> looks like the Harzen guys
22:34:23 <gfldex> that Harzquerbahn Eddi
22:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> i know where hasserode is :p
22:34:35 <gfldex> you ever used that one?
22:34:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> only the beer tastes crap :p
22:34:44 <Bjarni> they have narrow gauge tracks all over that funny mountain thingie
22:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, my mother is from that region
22:35:12 <Bjarni> those guys master a special skill
22:35:14 <Eddi|zuHause2> and my grandparents still live there
22:35:15 <gfldex> i went there as a child a few times
22:35:29 <gfldex> lovely place but the steam engine is not as funny as one may think
22:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> but it is a while ago since i actually used it
22:35:42 <gfldex> you are breathing smoke when it's moving slowly
22:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> the last time i can remember was around 1989-1990
22:36:17 <Bjarni> whenever they make wheelslip, they add sand to stop the wheels from spinning really fast. The wheels are then slowed to the correct RPM, but since the pistons are at high speed, they are likely to crack and they produce a breakdown :s
22:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> when they opened the Brocken for the public
22:36:53 <Bjarni> I don't know why they don't just reduce steam until it catches the rails again (like the rest of us)
22:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> it didn't drive up there yet, so we walked from schierke to the peak
22:37:12 <Bjarni> it really is the only way to stop wheelslip on a steam locomotive
22:38:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> it was winter, but not a hard one
22:38:40 <gfldex> i grow up in Leipzig, so they send me to that place to change the color of my lungs from black to something more healthy
22:38:46 <Bjarni> hehe... I think this is an interesting channel. One guy posts an image and the two other active guys in the channel can tell where it's from :D
22:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> not like the 1988/89 winter, which we spent in neuhaus
22:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> with like 2m snow in one night
22:39:15 <Bjarni> gfldex: they sent you to the steam locomotives to ensure that your lungs didn't turn black?
22:39:36 <gfldex> that's how polluted my home town was
22:40:05 * Bjarni notes not to go to Leipzig
22:40:05 <gfldex> if you dig in your nose what color do you get out of it?
22:40:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: it has way improved since they closed down all the industries
22:40:25 <Bjarni> if I have been on the railroad, then black
22:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> i mean literally _all_ the industries
22:40:40 <Bjarni> specially if I have been on top of the enigne
22:40:55 <gfldex> my bogeys where all black in that time
22:41:02 <gfldex> because anybody was heating with coal
22:41:17 <gfldex> that crappy stuff we digged out of the ground nearby
22:41:26 <Bjarni> that brown coal from Eastern Germany?
22:41:39 <Bjarni> or black coal from Poland/Ruhr?
22:42:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: leipzig is in east germany, and when he says "nearby"...
22:42:10 <gfldex> the brown one with that nice level of sulfur in it
22:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause2> actually, leipzig is not far away from here...
22:42:40 <Bjarni> sulfur isn't bad when it comes to creating black smoke... all the other impurities in the coal are though
22:42:52 <Vikthor> Eddi|zuHause2: You say it was bad in Leipzig, but it was even worse on the other side of Erzgebirge
22:43:35 <gfldex> in Leipig it depends where the wind came from
22:43:48 <gfldex> so we had good and bad days. other places where not so lucky
22:43:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> Vikthor: that may be, but tschechia has much lower unemployment rates than east germany
22:43:52 <Bjarni> we could stop a whole lot of pollution if Germany would stop using their poor coal in the powerplants
22:44:06 <Bjarni> switching to coal from Ruhr would actually improve conditions
22:44:09 <gfldex> we dont use it anymore
22:44:22 <Bjarni> you finally got rid of it?
22:44:31 <gfldex> the mines are nearly empty anyway
22:44:44 <gfldex> we would have to open new mines and remove a few cities
22:44:48 <Bjarni> when did you stop using it?
22:44:50 <Vikthor> Eddi|zuHause2: You know not only we had our brown coal-powerplants, due to prevailing winds we have been getting your pollution
22:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's funny, near Bitterfeld they wanted to flood a "Tagebau" [= open mine], it was projected to be filled in 10 years
22:45:28 <gfldex> we stopped in the end of the '90s
22:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> then there came the big flood
22:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> and it filled up in 5 days
22:46:03 <gfldex> there are 3 new sees near leipzig. they where not there 10 years ago
22:46:37 <gfldex> that flood was indeed not planned :)
22:46:38 <Vikthor> You should see the landscape around Most, its the same
22:46:43 <Bjarni> strip mining is bad for the environment and actually dangerous even after the mining stops
22:47:05 <gfldex> but if those who felt victim would have listened to their grandpas it would not have hit them that hard
22:47:19 <gfldex> the older ppl knew why they didnt build houses there for ages
22:47:54 <gfldex> it's bad for ground water levels Bjarni
22:48:07 <gfldex> but if you stop the pumps at gets better real quick
22:48:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, the housing business boomed in the past ~15 years
22:48:20 <gfldex> the parts of Leipzig that are close to that 3 sees even got problems now
22:48:28 <gfldex> some basements are getting quite wet
22:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause2> of course there come along greedy guys who buy cheap land, not considering the reasons why it's so cheap
22:49:10 <Bjarni> DSB found a nice empty spot near the tracks and built a depot to prepare the EMUs for service... then they figured out why it was vacant. They had problems making a stable foundation (really soft) and they have to use a pump at all times or they will have 50 cm of water on the floor
22:49:32 <Bjarni> there are certain places where it's just not meant to build anything
22:49:52 <gfldex> like the subway in newyork? :)
22:49:55 <Bjarni> <gfldex> it's bad for ground water levels Bjarni <-- that too
22:50:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> new york is funny, after 50cm of digging, all you find is rock :p
22:50:56 <Bjarni> during the war Denmark did some strip mining for brown coal as well. Now the area is sealed off because it's dangerous and it's full of lakes
22:51:26 <gfldex> luckyly we dont got that problem in germany
22:51:37 <gfldex> the coal was compareable close the surface
22:51:40 <Bjarni> there is a small museum there on one of the relatively safe spots, though they have signs everywhere telling people not to leave the trails
22:51:40 *** Progman has joined #openttd
22:52:36 <Bjarni> one of the lakes (at least the one they told about) makes a chemical reaction with something underneath so it's an acid lake without anything living in it
22:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are still more areas to be flooded here
22:52:58 <Bjarni> too strong acid for just being pure carbon acid
22:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> like one "Tagebau" west of Merseburg
22:53:14 <Bjarni> it had a pretty colour though
22:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's an area which was not affected by the big flood
22:53:26 <gfldex> where do you live Eddi?
22:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> i live west of Halle
22:54:16 <gfldex> is halle a ghost town allready?
22:54:32 <Vikthor> Bjarni: Here(Well not exactly here, around Teplice) they flooded one mine and now it is open for swimming
22:54:48 <Bjarni> without any acid burns?
22:55:03 <gfldex> a friend of mine is teacher in leipzig and he got friends in halle.
22:55:14 <gfldex> teachers aswell and they say there is not much to do for them
22:55:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> don't believe _all_ stories on www.hoelle-saale.de.tt
22:55:32 <Bjarni> well, I wouldn't go swimming in any of the lakes I saw. The reason is that the ground in the area was basically sand, so all the shorelines were really unstable
22:56:13 <Vikthor> I am not sure but there should be no acid if you have not been refilling the mine with ash from the coal
22:56:19 <TrueBrain> does the extension .tt exist?
22:56:25 <Vikthor> and this mine was closed for rother long time
22:56:33 <TrueBrain> we should get www.open.tt :p
22:57:20 <gfldex> .tt is trinidat and tabogo
22:57:30 <gfldex> so they are basicly voodoo domains :D
22:57:46 <huma> open.tt is available, btw
22:57:54 <Bjarni> it's called Trinidad and Tobago
22:58:13 <Bjarni> yeah, we should get that one :D
22:59:00 <Bjarni> that's the rest reason if they ever was one :D
22:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> getting such a top level domain might get tricky if you do not own a server in that country
22:59:33 <TrueBrain> else you need to take open.co.tt
22:59:37 <TrueBrain> but that spoils it :p
22:59:37 <Bjarni> I think we will stick to openttd.org
23:00:15 <TrueBrain> Registration Fee, FOREIGN, 2nd level domain
23:00:45 <gfldex> if you got a .tv domain you are in trouble btw
23:00:56 <gfldex> because you need a state to get a top level domain
23:01:04 <gfldex> and they will be gone in 50 years
23:01:28 <TrueBrain> I once requested if I could have my own TLD :p
23:01:31 <TrueBrain> I got a very nice response :)
23:01:33 <gfldex> at least for that kind of TLD
23:01:37 <Bjarni> the domain called sex.tv was once for rent for $1.000.000/year
23:01:46 <Bjarni> all of a sudden it contained a porn site
23:02:26 <Bjarni> <huma> a state? <-- it's a whole island in the Pacific and it's a country of it's own
23:02:46 <gfldex> it is a island for now ...
23:02:58 <Bjarni> they are like 25k people and some US company offered them $4 million a year for the rights to all .tv domains
23:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> .tv belongs to the country of tuvalu
23:03:07 *** Jaywizzle has joined #openttd
23:03:18 <gfldex> the first country to get disbanded because they will run out of land in history
23:03:25 <Bjarni> 4 million a year is a lot for 25k people in a poor country
23:03:27 <huma> their whole economy is based on cybersquatting?
23:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> 4 million? they can get better deals than that
23:03:52 <Jaywizzle> Ok this may be a horribly stupid question, but i was playing a randomly generated game and its 2020 and i see all the aval trains but i cant build any, how do i gain access to build them??
23:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause2> selling all domains individually
23:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> Jaywizzle: build a depot, click on it
23:04:25 <Bjarni> yeah, but it looked like they wanted to sell them all for a steady income without any work
23:04:25 <huma> i wonder how many of those 25k have internet access
23:04:32 <TrueBrain> I am so bored... what to do...
23:04:33 <Bjarni> then the buyer sells them individually
23:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> Jaywizzle: you cannot build vehicles from the vehicle list
23:04:42 <Bjarni> TrueBrain: code something really cool
23:04:55 <huma> TrueBrain: yes please :)
23:05:00 <Bjarni> TrueBrain: like an air condition controller
23:05:04 <gfldex> if they sell them by themself they need the infrastructure to run a registry
23:05:04 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: I already made a server for EaB in Stackless Python
23:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: exactly, and make a gazillion of extra money
23:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> for very little work
23:05:14 <gfldex> that way they simply rent the right to have a registry out
23:05:17 <Jaywizzle> yup did so i have plenty of trains but i want the new engines i dont see them aval on my list at depots
23:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> Jaywizzle: then build a depot of the proper railtype
23:05:51 <TrueBrain> a cool game that closed down some years ago
23:06:01 <Jaywizzle> i see them as being aval and they should be bwecause of the year, but when i click a depot and build a new train all i have aval is two engines
23:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> electric/monorail/maglev
23:06:50 * Bjarni was just attacked by a bug
23:07:00 <Bjarni> it flew right into my face
23:07:01 <TrueBrain> huma: proof of concept more than anything else, but also because it is the right language for that job
23:07:12 <TrueBrain> as example: EVE: Online switched to it too, for a good reason
23:07:21 <Bjarni> I guess it's payback for all the bug hunting and bug killing I have done
23:07:27 <gfldex> you need stackless python because of the stack limitations on windows
23:07:33 <gfldex> that's why eve is using it too
23:07:41 <TrueBrain> gfldex: euh, like: wrong!
23:07:50 <TrueBrain> stack limitations is not related to Windows, to start
23:08:00 <TrueBrain> second, it is a 'cheap' way for threading, the reason EVE uses it
23:08:11 <huma> haha! stacks flame war! :)
23:08:11 <gfldex> true but they are more ugly on windows then anywhere else
23:08:20 <TrueBrain> gfldex: it is not related to Windows
23:08:30 <TrueBrain> that is why in C, and all languages based on C, you have a stack limit
23:08:42 <TrueBrain> Python is made in C
23:08:46 <gfldex> i know, you got problems with the stack anywhere if you have lots and lots of small functions that call each other
23:09:02 <TrueBrain> and we call it recursion
23:09:11 <gfldex> C got (at least in theory) an endless stack
23:09:22 <gfldex> the heap starts to grow from one end and the stack at the other
23:09:25 <TrueBrain> in theory even, the stack is the size of the memory
23:09:36 <Bjarni> I found another youtube video today. Some candid camera in Japanese trains and they filmed the reaction when famous people started telling stories (or something) though the speaker system
23:09:50 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
23:09:58 *** TrueBrain changes topic to "0.5.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | YouTube link == Ban"
23:10:01 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o TrueBrain
23:10:10 <Bjarni> it was in Japanese and with Japanese subtitles, so I think it could be really funny, but I didn't get it :(
23:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> we tried that with bash links previously, it did not exactly work out :p
23:10:36 <huma> Bjarni: hint: use tinyurl :)
23:10:49 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: for the same reason as bash-links == ban
23:11:01 <TrueBrain> gfldex: anyway, the stackless part of stackless python isn't real, and not the main advantage
23:11:04 <TrueBrain> the microthreads are
23:11:07 <Bjarni> I asked for the reason
23:11:20 <huma> TrueBrain doesn't have flash to watch videos :)
23:11:20 <TrueBrain> and I refered you to the reason which states that bash links result in a ban
23:11:58 <Bjarni> TrueBrain: the link was bad anyway
23:12:05 <gfldex> CCP seam not to be that happy then them tho
23:12:07 <TrueBrain> gfldex: in fact, there is a microthread lib for C, but it is rather ugly :s
23:12:15 <Bjarni> it's some gay looking guy in leather talking German
23:12:22 <Bjarni> didn't bother to finish watching it
23:12:28 <huma> what's cool is when flash has a link to skip it inside the flash :)
23:12:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's actually a german comedy show
23:12:41 <TrueBrain> downside of Python, it is rather memory inefficient for jobs like MMO servers
23:12:45 <huma> or even better - has a link to download flash :)
23:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> and moreover, a crossover between two comedy shows :p
23:13:03 <TrueBrain> and after working for 2 weeks in python now, I have to say: I don't like Python-syntax
23:13:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> although it is pretty old
23:13:30 <huma> 2 years? as the main language?
23:13:46 <gfldex> i read the syntax of python and i decided to stick with perl when it comes to scripting
23:13:57 <TrueBrain> python is good for scripting
23:14:09 <gfldex> javascript (1.7 and later) is a true beauty tho
23:14:09 <TrueBrain> not so 'hackish' as Perl
23:14:22 <TrueBrain> but... the mistakes I make 2 weeks ago, I still do
23:14:27 <gfldex> i like the hackish part in perl :)
23:14:28 <TrueBrain> as it means that the language sucks
23:15:02 <TrueBrain> but then again, implicit decleration sucks too
23:15:10 <TrueBrain> in Python: buf = len("abc")
23:15:18 <gfldex> $_ together with destructuring arrays is quite nice
23:15:20 <TrueBrain> not the 2nd, the 3rd
23:15:37 <gfldex> and you solve the problem with variable parameter count in function quite elegant
23:15:45 <gfldex> because it's the default :)
23:16:07 <TrueBrain> my biggest problem with Python are the error messages
23:16:12 <TrueBrain> gcc is unclear in its messages
23:16:26 <gfldex> and they can be like a mile long :)
23:16:49 <TrueBrain> bah, it is tempting to start playing EVE: Online
23:16:54 <TrueBrain> lucky for me cedega doesn't work here at the moment :p
23:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: the most funny part is, the original "sex tv" sketches were part of the "Wochenschau", which was broadcast on Sat.1, but the guy walking in greets the "Pro 7 viewers" (knowing that he would later broadcast this sketch on his show on the other channel)
23:17:09 <gfldex> i stopped playing eve. did it for more then 4 years
23:17:30 <TrueBrain> last time I played it (2 years ago or so), I found it boring
23:17:39 <gfldex> then we moved shit worth 35B from lower tash to deep 0.0 and nobody really nobody could cause us a problem
23:17:41 <TrueBrain> the reason I started to work on the EaB server :p
23:17:46 <gfldex> and that's plain wrong
23:18:24 <TrueBrain> but now I have a nice stackless python server for EaB, but several packages take 80ms to build
23:18:29 <TrueBrain> which is just too long
23:18:44 <TrueBrain> and that is because I can't allocate N bytes of memory, and roll a struct over it
23:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> if you browse through youtube, you can probably find either more "sex tv" sketches, or more "rabigramm" sketches
23:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> like the rabigramm with the klitschko brothers... that one is great :p
23:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> (that was in the show "Wetten, daß..?!" (on ZDF))
23:20:20 <gfldex> are discussions about youtube links allowed?
23:20:38 <TrueBrain> gfldex: Eddi|zuHause2 knows he is pushing it ;)
23:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> probably not :p
23:22:55 <gfldex> what exactly do you need the microthreads for in that server TrueBrain?
23:23:03 <TrueBrain> anyway, I now wonder if I should try to increase the speed of my server, but... I think I should pick an other language and try again :s
23:23:15 <TrueBrain> gfldex: simple: every connection goes in its own thread
23:23:20 <TrueBrain> if you do this via, say, pthread
23:23:23 <TrueBrain> there is a BIG overhead
23:23:26 <TrueBrain> and a max of, what, 1200?
23:23:36 <TrueBrain> (most systems drop out when you try to create 1000+ threads)
23:23:50 <gfldex> linux should be fine with that
23:23:55 <TrueBrain> microthreads aren't 'real' threads, as in that they don't push and pop the stack
23:24:01 <TrueBrain> gfldex: no, even linux drops out at 1200
23:24:50 <gfldex> you have to iterate of those connections, right?
23:24:59 <TrueBrain> not via this way :)
23:25:01 <gfldex> so you end up with polluting the CPU cache quite a lot
23:25:48 <TrueBrain> Anyway, you can also put timers in threads like this
23:25:53 <TrueBrain> so you say: wait(3)
23:25:55 <TrueBrain> and it waits 3 seconds
23:26:00 <TrueBrain> without holding the rest of the application
23:26:12 <TrueBrain> 1 thing you really have to keep in mind, is that all local variables are gone when it returns
23:26:19 <TrueBrain> but that is just a matter of coding correctly :)
23:28:00 *** Greyscale_ has joined #openttd
23:28:30 <TrueBrain> wow, CCP helped with a lot of improvements in Python I didn't know about..
23:28:36 <TrueBrain> most of them are exactly what I need :)
23:28:47 <gfldex> if you would have to serve that many connections in c++ you would try to handle all connections in one process
23:28:56 <TrueBrain> blathijs: EVE: Online creators
23:29:06 <TrueBrain> gfldex: yes, which overcomplicates things
23:29:18 <gfldex> depends on your implementation
23:29:22 <TrueBrain> gfldex: simple example: I read 4 bytes of the network, indicating a length of the packet
23:29:35 <TrueBrain> with microthreads I just do: while True: socket.read(). tasklett.suspend()
23:29:43 <TrueBrain> till the length is read
23:29:46 <gfldex> stackless p. has to be written in some language and my bet is it's c++
23:29:48 <TrueBrain> in your case, it would be much more complicated
23:29:50 <TrueBrain> and in fact: slower
23:29:58 <gfldex> you will type yourself bloody fingers tho
23:29:59 <TrueBrain> gfldex: it is a small patch over Python, so it is C
23:30:06 <Sacro> TrueBrain: how did you get my lego train into ottd?
23:30:25 <TrueBrain> "ordered dictionary"
23:30:30 <TrueBrain> haha, I love how CCP things :)
23:30:57 <gfldex> you could use trolltechs Qt
23:31:10 <gfldex> very easy and nice to write as well
23:31:16 <gfldex> and you dont need threads
23:31:27 <TrueBrain> you don't get it :)
23:31:42 <TrueBrain> without microthreads, a server of this magnitude == slow
23:31:48 <TrueBrain> in which ever langugage
23:32:05 <TrueBrain> only for some simple GUI
23:34:00 <gfldex> TrueBrain: you know that CCP is switching from stackless to C++ bit by bit?
23:34:05 <gfldex> at least for the server part
23:34:17 <gfldex> the client will stay in stackless for some time
23:34:18 <TrueBrain> at the 17th of August they claimed something else
23:34:48 <TrueBrain> gfldex: anyway, CCP doesn't use microthreads (yet)
23:35:19 <Sacro> TrueBrain: thats too complex for stupid little me
23:35:20 <gfldex> did you see the vids from last fanfest?
23:36:05 <TrueBrain> "We will start experimenting in the use of Python threads in conjunction with tasklets to try to reduce client side lag."
23:36:20 <TrueBrain> gfldex: no, I didn't
23:36:37 <gfldex> they had some good interviews with quite a lot ppl
23:37:06 <gfldex> and oveur sayed they replace python on server side bit by bit with c++
23:37:11 <TrueBrain> "On the server side, we have found that increased responsiveness reduces lag"
23:37:23 <TrueBrain> (talking about replacing C++ with Python)
23:37:25 <TrueBrain> hehe, confusing times :p
23:37:31 <TrueBrain> not that important, I guess :)
23:38:24 <gfldex> they more or less pay the development of stackless python
23:38:34 <gfldex> so they wont say anything bad about it
23:39:09 <gfldex> or better stay spend money to that uni where the guy got a position that is doing it
23:39:53 <TrueBrain> anyway, normal threads are just too slow, and without threads, servers like this are a complete mess
23:40:30 <gfldex> that's what C++ is for. hide the mess behind classes (that happen to be messy then :)
23:40:42 <TrueBrain> :) It is not only that
23:40:54 <TrueBrain> take the EaB servers, there are 2 other versions: Java and C++
23:40:59 <TrueBrain> Java I don't know, didn't look into
23:41:04 <TrueBrain> but the C++ is done via pthreads
23:41:11 <TrueBrain> each connection gets a thread
23:41:22 <TrueBrain> that server will be slow with a high amount of clients connected
23:41:30 <gfldex> maybe they wantet to run it on spark? :)
23:42:38 <TrueBrain> but okay.. I like Python Stackless concept, I dislike Python :p
23:43:19 <gfldex> is there any language that is actually good all around?
23:43:33 <gfldex> a good project for you then :->
23:43:43 <TrueBrain> hehe, I ahve been thinking about it ;)
23:43:57 <TrueBrain> but no, if you are a good programmer, you will never find a language that is perfect all around
23:44:04 <TrueBrain> there is always something :p
23:44:04 *** Greyscale_ has joined #openttd
23:44:27 <gfldex> i missplaced a & in c++ code a few days back
23:44:35 <gfldex> took me 2 days to find out whats wrong
23:45:17 <gfldex> that gives you a compiler error on most cases
23:45:46 <gfldex> i got a iterator that refused to stop to iterate
23:46:37 <gfldex> resulting in a segfault
23:47:59 <TrueBrain> and C++ is one of the best languages ;)
23:48:07 <gfldex> i ended up with comparing memory positions of pointers (that's what's left of iterators after optimizations)
23:48:30 <gfldex> and i got to pointers that where different where they had to be the same
23:48:40 <gfldex> i still could not see what was going wrong
23:48:43 <TrueBrain> gfldex: btw, one other advantage about Python, you can reload parts of it without shutting down ;)
23:48:59 <ln-> an ottd rewrite in python?=
23:49:27 <TrueBrain> I wonder if you can make a convertor...
23:49:35 <gfldex> at first you would have to abond the grf and savegame void* deep deep black magic
23:49:48 <ln-> i do have the python book, but i'm approximately at the "hello world" page..
23:49:48 <gfldex> and all those nice grfs are the point of that game
23:50:11 <TrueBrain> lol, the memorypools would be a cool one too :p
23:50:31 <gfldex> you would have to change anything
23:50:42 <TrueBrain> so basicly: a rewrite :p
23:51:11 <gfldex> wouldn't be the worst move tho
23:51:20 <SpComb> Python asynchronous networking/IO <3
23:51:23 <gfldex> you would release earth from a source of pain
23:51:40 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD in Python, interesting concept :)
23:52:08 <gfldex> there are bindings for SDL and kairo
23:52:33 <SpComb> OpenTTD server in python...
23:52:37 <gfldex> so you could build a fully zoomable gui fairly easy :)
23:52:50 <TrueBrain> SpComb: sadly enough, impossible
23:52:55 <TrueBrain> as the server needs to know the gamelogic
23:53:02 <TrueBrain> and as the gamelogic is equal to the whole game
23:53:37 <TrueBrain> @kick Sacro nice try, but it still is a youtube to me
23:53:37 *** Sacro was kicked by DorpsGek (nice try, but it still is a youtube to me)
23:53:52 <gfldex> you could give the grf (or better mod) writers a lot more freedom
23:54:12 <TrueBrain> gfldex: we can also just take Squirrel from NoAI branch, and allow that for grfs :)
23:54:26 <gfldex> i would prefere javascript tbh
23:54:40 <gfldex> i looked over the squirrel syntax and it got a lot stuff you dont really need
23:54:42 <TrueBrain> we picked Squirrel, and for a simple reason: it is light
23:54:54 <TrueBrain> 6000 lines of source-code to compile Squirrel
23:54:59 <TrueBrain> JavaScript is a bit... bigger :p
23:55:14 <gfldex> and you can load scripts in unicode
23:55:15 <TrueBrain> the last time I checked, you needed a lot of files :p
23:55:34 <gfldex> and that means you could implement the gui description completely in javascript
23:55:55 <gfldex> translaters could translate the gui then instead of to short strings :)
23:55:56 <TrueBrain> gfldex: any scripting language can do that
23:56:26 <TrueBrain> only a bit slower, but okay :p
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