IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-09-10
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00:00:19 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing major, but at least i know of two definite conflicts from reading commit messages ;)
00:00:31 <TrueBrain> you have blitter changes? :)
00:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> should be easy one-liners
00:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no, commits from a few days ago
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00:03:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r11081 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Fix r11080: now solved the problem in a pretty way: don't do animation if we are not drawing to the screen-pointer
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00:04:06 <TrueBrain> oh, tnx to glx for the help on the last commit :)
00:04:33 <TrueBrain> [01:57] <glx> use BlitterParams maybe
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00:04:41 <TrueBrain> [01:56] <glx> it should not assume it is drawing on screen
00:05:03 <glx> you already known the second I think
00:05:31 <TrueBrain> have someone saying it to you helps a lot :)
00:05:40 <TrueBrain> as I didn't realise the solution could be this simple ;)
00:05:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r11082 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Fix r11081: save before commit (yeah, whitelines are important too!)
00:05:53 <TrueBrain> okay, 4 commits, 3 fixes, you got to love it :)
00:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it is elementary :p
00:17:41 <SmatZ> seems you are trying to increase average number of commits per day
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12:07:55 <dihedral> you're a quiet bunch...
12:12:28 <N101> dredding school for tommrow
12:17:17 <dihedral> it's monday afternoon
12:18:24 <guru3> finally getting around to writing yesterday's blog entry
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14:49:10 <glx> red and green with some blue
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14:52:33 <frosch123> TrueBrain: Thanks. But why do you clear the anim-buffer, when skipping transparent pixels?
14:52:52 <TrueBrain> frosch123: euh.. DOH
14:53:00 <TrueBrain> that was old code that was needed for some testing...
14:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> that is feeled fix #12 to a commit? :p
14:53:26 <TrueBrain> you forgot to skip the anim buffer at all
14:53:31 <TrueBrain> so I wondered what went wrong
14:54:03 <SpComb> what's changed between 0.5.2 and 0.5.3-RC3 that would cause console commands sent to openttd -D's stdin to work in the latter, but not in the former?
14:54:58 <frosch123> Oops, indeed. Stupid copy and paste.
14:55:03 <SpComb> oh, right, I just answered that myself with a quick `diff` - printf("%s\n", str); becomes fprintf(stdout, "%s\n", str); fflush(stdout);
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14:57:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truelight * r11083 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Fix r11078: don't clear the anim buffer when alpha = 0 (tnx to frosch)
14:58:22 <TrueBrain> so there you go frosch123
14:58:35 <TrueBrain> when can we expect a patch that makes the 32bpp-optimized encode stuff like 8bpp-optimized does? :)
14:59:11 <frosch123> I had a feeling, that the zoom-level-based rendering does not increase performance.
14:59:25 <TrueBrain> it does a bit, but more: it reduces the amount of memory needed ;)
15:00:16 <frosch123> If you compare 8bpp-simple and 8bpp-optimized, 8bpp optimized is 8 times faster on my machine.
15:00:30 <frosch123> but the skipping can only explain factor 2
15:01:04 <frosch123> So I can only guess a cache issue, because of very small mem usage of the 8bpp-optimized
15:01:06 <TrueBrain> on nomral zoom-in you mean?
15:01:19 <frosch123> but the 32bpp blitters use more memory
15:01:23 <TrueBrain> put your cache on 16M, and it should never give any problem :)
15:01:29 <frosch123> yes the normal zoom-in
15:01:46 <frosch123> I mean processor first level cache.
15:01:52 <frosch123> My spritecache is 64M
15:01:53 <TrueBrain> main thing about 8bpp-optimized, is that memcpy is used to copy bytes, instead of one by one
15:01:58 <TrueBrain> (in case of no REMAP and TRANSPARENT)
15:02:15 <TrueBrain> So L1 cache? I think L2 is more important in this, but okay, good enough :)
15:02:36 <frosch123> When using 8bpp-optimized for zoom-out levels, it is not that fast compared to 8bpp-simple.
15:02:57 <TrueBrain> it looses it advantage yes
15:03:23 <TrueBrain> memcpy(dst, src, pixels);
15:03:23 <TrueBrain> dst += pixels; src += pixels;
15:03:29 <TrueBrain> This was a factor 4 speed-up or something :)
15:04:01 <frosch123> That only works for fully opaque pixels.
15:04:09 <TrueBrain> frosch123: 8bpp....
15:04:37 <TrueBrain> anyway, the point here is: you can't get as fast as 8bpp-optimized with 32bpp, simply because you can't memcpy
15:04:44 <TrueBrain> but a speed of 8bpp-simple should be reachable
15:05:04 <TrueBrain> although that is just a random number
15:05:09 <TrueBrain> (they cna't be really compared)
15:06:01 <frosch123> Perhaps split the M channel from CommonPixel and store length of fully opaque pixelblocks as well.
15:06:08 <frosch123> Then memcpy would be possible.
15:06:15 <TrueBrain> for small pieces, indeed
15:06:27 <TrueBrain> (depending on the source of course)
15:07:21 <TrueBrain> anyway, I got to go
15:12:05 * SpComb shakes fist at whoever forgot to flush stdout
15:12:23 <SpComb> I have to run openttd inside a pty, which introduces all kinds of nasty things, but at least it works
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15:21:50 <Rubidium> so, did anybody test the current 0.5 branch?
15:21:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11084 /trunk/ (Doxyfile src/command.cpp src/command.h): -Documentation [FS#1219]: of command.*. Patch by Progman.
15:29:45 <skidd13> Rubidium: Anything special in mind?
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15:32:23 <Rubidium> quite a lot, cause there were some major changes in the command subsystem
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15:37:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11085 /trunk/src/command.h: -Fix-ish (r11084): some tabs that did not show up in the diff, which caused a mess of tab and non-tab usage.
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15:43:11 <Ammlller> Hi, strange bug in current nightly: we have to stop trains to join, else we will desync
15:44:26 <glx> current is not a version :)
15:44:42 <Rubidium> they're running 11085
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15:46:35 <Ammlller> is that not current nightly?
15:46:54 <glx> it is yesterday nightly :)
15:47:07 <Ammlller> and that is current untily this night :)
15:47:43 <glx> and what version was previously used?
15:48:33 <Ammlller> 11047, is that importend?
15:49:24 <glx> reduce the changes to check :)
15:49:45 <Ammlller> I guess, it has something to do with the vehicle list?
15:50:43 <SmatZ> Ammlller: hello, what's the problem?
15:51:11 <Ammlller> If someone likes to join, we have to stop trains (not pause) else he will desync
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15:52:00 <Farden> and if we forget a train, even if it doesn't move, desync...
15:52:31 <glx> there's a stopall command IIRC to not forget any train :)
15:53:50 <Ammlller> and SmatZ, 2 error witch patch setting on start, is that wanted? (
15:53:50 <Ammlller> advanced_vehicle_list = 1
15:53:50 <Ammlller> loading_indicators = 1
15:53:52 <SmatZ> why do you think my patch caused this?
15:54:13 <SmatZ> you have to set different value now
15:54:24 <SmatZ> it is saved in openttd.cfg, not in savegame
15:54:28 <SmatZ> fully client-side option
15:54:34 <Ammlller> hmm, possible that server has still old settings
15:54:54 <Ammlller> could that be the problem
15:54:59 <Farden> (and on exit, too, the errors)
15:55:07 <SmatZ> really, changes in GUI shouldn't cause any of described problems
15:55:21 <SmatZ> I even used modified r11042 client with those patches on #openttdcoop with no problem
15:55:38 <SmatZ> whne you set new value, it gets saved
15:58:03 <SmatZ> Ammlller: go to Patch settings, change those "problematic" patches to some value and leave the game -> it will be saved and give no more warning
15:58:13 <SmatZ> it is fully client-side patch, it cannot cause desyncs...
15:58:29 <SmatZ> if it can, there is something horribly wrong in the code ...
15:59:02 <Ammlller> SmatZ: you can also delete them..
15:59:13 <Rubidium> my suspect is FS#11059
15:59:14 <Ammlller> I will check server settings
15:59:22 <Rubidium> especially the train_cmd.cpp change
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16:04:00 <Ammlller> Rubidium: it has definitly something to do with trains, its easy reproducable
16:04:32 <skidd13> Does anyone remember who has written the town growth speed stuff?
16:05:56 <Bjarni> try svn blame and read the log entry for the commit in question
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16:14:55 <DorpsGek> skidd13: Maedhros was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 21 hours, 19 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <Maedhros> i'm not entirely sure what that code should be doing though (and the cider isn't helping ;)
16:19:54 <DorpsGek> skidd13: Commit by maedhros :: r9613 /trunk/src (7 files in 2 dirs) (2007-04-12 17:24:34 UTC)
16:19:54 <Bjarni> damn he had to be drunk if he has a two week handover o_O
16:19:55 <DorpsGek> skidd13: -Feature: Make it possible to have some control over the town growth. The
16:19:56 <DorpsGek> skidd13: default rate is TTD's original rate, and to approximate OpenTTD's previous
16:19:57 <DorpsGek> skidd13: behaviour the rate should be set to "Fast" or "Very Fast". Town growth can be
16:19:58 <DorpsGek> skidd13: switched off entirely, and if so, buildings will not be rebuilt. It is also
16:20:15 <DorpsGek> skidd13: Commit by maedhros :: r9614 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2007-04-12 18:23:47 UTC)
16:20:16 <DorpsGek> skidd13: -Feature: Use the normal growth rate values when the growth rate is set to none and "Fund new buildings" is used.
16:20:30 <svip> Does it really need to add an extra line with "(...)"?
16:20:38 <svip> Couldn't it just wrap up the line before that with thaT?
16:20:48 <skidd13> It's a bot it's stupid
16:20:56 <svip> You can make a bot smart.
16:21:11 <Bjarni> only if you want to invest too much time in it
16:21:30 <skidd13> svip: you can but do you want? ;)
16:21:37 <svip> But of course it is stupid, it performs simple tasks.
16:21:43 <svip> Just think it is a waste of lines.
16:22:03 <svip> In fact, why don't it just remove the line feeds and move as much as possible on one line.
16:22:04 <Bjarni> for some reason it's funnier when they are dumb and fills the channel with something not that bright :P
16:22:25 <Bjarni> <svip> In fact, why don't it just remove the line feeds and move as much as possible on one line. <-- readability
16:22:48 <glx> <@Bjarni> for some reason it's funnier when they are dumb and fills the channel with something not that bright :P <-- kick because flood?
16:23:07 <ln-> Bjarni: so, gravity 1 - SAS 0
16:23:21 <svip> "You win again, gravity!"
16:23:51 * Bjarni never really liked Dash 8 anyway
16:24:20 <Bjarni> it's the wrong plane for the route
16:24:33 <svip> :/ Who goes to Aalborg anyway?
16:24:43 <Bjarni> that's another very good question
16:24:54 <svip> And if you are, why are you flying?
16:25:05 <svip> Do it the OTTD way... take the train.
16:25:19 <svip> Luckily you don't have to build the tracks yourself.
16:25:22 <ln-> it was a DeHavilland Q400, wasn't it?
16:26:08 <Bjarni> I once took the train there and had to change... and the other train didn't drive on that particular weekday. DSB sold me an invalid ticket >_<
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16:26:38 <Bjarni> ln-: the news here claimed it to be Dash 8-Q400
16:26:42 <ln-> (their ticket vending user interface must have been in danish so they couldn't understand a word)
16:27:08 <ln-> hmmm, so are there two planes called Q400, funny.
16:27:36 <ln-> or it might be an alternative name
16:28:45 <Bjarni> actually it was before computers took over, so the ticket sales person looked up the schedule in a book and it appears that she read the wrong weekday (aka the wrong page)
16:29:00 <glx> ln-: nice of you to give the norwegian page :)
16:29:48 <ln-> glx: it was closest to danish i could find.. google found japanese page first.
16:30:19 <Bjarni> post that one as well :P
16:30:22 <Rubidium> at least there are quite a few Japanese->English translators (at least more than Norwegian->English)
16:30:41 <svip> "9 September 2007: The crew on board Scandinavian Airlines flight 1209, en route from Copenhagen to Aalborg reported problems with the locking mechanism of right side landing gear, and Aalborg Airport was prepared for an emergency landing."
16:30:42 <Bjarni> and then everybody can use bablefish to understand anything in it :P
16:31:03 <Bjarni> svip: you didn't know?
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16:31:15 <svip> I is just fooling around.
16:32:23 <Bjarni> whenever you can blame somebody on the other side of the Atlantic, then do it
16:33:01 <Bjarni> but you only get full points when you blame Bush... how can this be Bush's fault?
16:34:04 <ln-> without americans the operating airline would have been lufthansa or klm.
16:34:27 <ln-> a little far-fetched, yes.
16:34:40 <Rubidium> because under Bush' administration they still let (proven) unsafe planes fly for years
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16:35:27 <Rubidium> a large part of the crashes due to technical "issues" happen quite a few times after they have found the "cure" for it
16:36:52 <glx> yeah 737 should not be allowed to fly
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17:14:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11086 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix/Revert (r11053, r10984): "fixing" r11053 made the acceleration code use the wrong speed, which can be fixed by reverting a small piece of r10984.
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17:27:25 <Phazorx> have some time/desire to discuss?
17:29:02 <Rubidium> not really as it is a hell of a lot of work for making the game even less balanced *and* basically ditching "proper" newgrf support.
17:29:28 <Phazorx> well less balanced is something that can be countered by other measures
17:29:50 <Phazorx> as i mention in the original post - i recon how complex would it to be to get it done properly
17:29:56 <Phazorx> and i'm not even leaning that way
17:30:39 <Phazorx> however there can be ways to deal with "undeserved extra income"
17:31:58 <Phazorx> i wonder if there are other things that will be affected aside of price calculation
17:33:21 <Wolf01> uhm, this night 2 hours of the simpsons inedited episodes
17:34:58 <Bjarni> now that is kind of off topic
17:35:11 <Bjarni> specially because it's likely on a channel I can't watch :P
17:35:20 <TrueBrain> Wolf01: any new version of your fast GUI patch?
17:35:37 <Wolf01> no, i'm stuck with... all
17:36:07 <Bjarni> then how can you have time for watching unedited cartoons?
17:36:37 <Wolf01> i need an help tool-like behaviour, but without the white square
17:36:54 <Wolf01> Phazorx, what about making trains cars to be continuous instead of "draw the next one where the current ends"?
17:37:35 <Wolf01> i don't want to use a placement tool, i want to click tiles directly
17:37:40 <Phazorx> Wolf01: you mean overlaying them?
17:38:43 <Wolf01> have you ever saw a train car with a door on the roof of the next car?
17:39:18 <Wolf01> *saw -> seen or "place the right verb"
17:39:51 <TrueBrain> hmm, WWT_TRANSPARENT doesn't even work, hehe :)
17:40:08 <Phazorx> Wolf01: it is possibel i guess... but math/engine solution is probably simplier
17:40:29 <Wolf01> yes, but you can fix both the speed and the appearance of a train
17:43:00 <Phazorx> well as Rubidium mentioned - gfx fix is much more tidious
17:49:18 <Rubidium> after thinking about this issue I've come to the solution that you can never fix it: you can't make a vehicle that is exactly long enough so you won't get the FS#1063 "issue" when going from straight to diagonal and when going from diagonal to straight
17:51:05 <Rubidium> as the length of the train must be proportional to sqrt(2), which isn't something you can achieve (nicely) with 28 or so pixels
18:00:53 <Phazorx> Rubidium: once again, what if we forego realistic/proper way of fixing it
18:00:59 <Phazorx> and play around with math
18:01:58 <Phazorx> contracting/misplacing grfs is probably not a bes idea but if we fake math to be 1 instead of srt(2)/2 for diagonals
18:02:25 <Phazorx> and compensate early arrivals for trains that have traveled a lot of space fiagonaly by afefcting profit
18:04:20 <Rubidium> Phazorx: how long should the vehicle be?
18:04:39 <Phazorx> half tile, both visualy and realisticaly
18:05:10 <Phazorx> i mean a tile for size/speed/distance calcualtion part has size of 1
18:05:18 <Phazorx> either way, straight or diagonal
18:06:03 <Phazorx> oh... i have no idea... i would not like the solution if it had to toch gfx
18:06:14 <Phazorx> i'd say exactly same as now grafically
18:06:30 <Phazorx> i only want to affect positions of everything
18:06:58 <Rubidium> positioning needs some sqrt(2) thing in diagonals
18:07:05 <Phazorx> essentialy as soon as 1st car of train is fully diagonal (half tile), a straight part of train should be one car (hal tile) less
18:07:35 <Phazorx> yes it does and the images used are coping with that very nicely
18:07:47 <Phazorx> since they are stretched byt sqrt(2) as well
18:09:28 <Phazorx> again Rubidium i do not have anything against unrealistic looking "expanding" effect, that is unavoidable heritage
18:09:45 <Rubidium> Phazorx: mathematically (not even graphically) a vehicle must be sqrt(2)/2 (or something like that) long on the diagonal track to not get the issue of FS#1063 on the begin *or* end of the diagonal track
18:10:34 <Phazorx> Rubidium: yes, and graffics used right now are exactly like that - a 2 full cars of train make whole diagonal track
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18:10:52 <Phazorx> each one of them is sqrt(2)/2 in visual length i guess
18:11:29 <Phazorx> but time it takes for these cars to get there is proportional not to their length but to traveled distabce which uses different scale
18:11:35 <Phazorx> which is the root of the problem
18:12:30 <Phazorx> if it is possible to make trains travel diagonaly with same proportions as grafical representation suggests you would get rif of growing/shrinking effect
18:13:07 <Phazorx> it will not look either nice, realistic or proper since trains would visualy and mathematicaly move faster on diagonal parts of tracks
18:13:38 <Phazorx> but that can be dealt with separately
18:13:44 <Rubidium> which is even wronger
18:14:04 <Rubidium> moving FASTER and a SHORTER distance, that's like giving it double bonuses
18:14:08 <Phazorx> well i'd say that is to be debated upon, i can suggest multuiple strategies for balancing that
18:14:30 <Rubidium> well, write a fix and show us how "easy" it is
18:14:48 <Phazorx> heh... i guess i am planing on that
18:15:01 <Phazorx> but my priginal question was what else can be affected by such change
18:15:30 <Rubidium> quite a lot, but what I don't know
18:16:17 <Phazorx> am i right to assume that for price calculation manhattan distance is used instead of any other model?
18:16:47 <Nite> where 2 ask about "reliability" calculation in ottd ?
18:18:11 <Ammlller> Nite, why didn't you just ask?
18:18:14 <Nite> hoped someone here could say something bout it
18:18:31 <Nite> is it purely random or can you influence it somehow?
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18:20:35 <TrueBrain> it is fully based on your creditcard number
18:22:21 <Bjarni> if you give your credit card number and the date of expiration, the vehicles will break down way less
18:22:45 <Prof_Frink> And the security code on the back
18:22:58 <TrueBrain> oh, just wire us all your money :)
18:24:18 <Nite> just thinking about money - pah - what about true values!
18:25:44 <TrueBrain> that was what we were talking about: money
18:26:15 <Prof_Frink> True value is 1. Credit card value is >1.
18:26:25 <Prof_Frink> (Subject to owner of said card)
18:31:47 <Belugas> was getting interesting :)
18:34:45 <Phazorx> i guess his time much closer to "true value" than what has been suggested here :)
18:42:55 <Wolf01> TrueBrain, now i succeeded to open the gui by clicking on a tile
18:43:14 <Belugas> Nite, define trillian, please
18:43:27 <Belugas> then no. I'm on coffeing
18:44:26 <Wolf01> multiprotocol chat program
18:45:06 <Phazorx> like miranda, but bloated
18:52:11 *** Dark_Link^Maxi is now known as Dark_Link^
18:53:19 <Belugas> quite happy that i CAN use IRC, and that's it...
18:53:24 <Belugas> make it as simple as possible
18:54:31 <Phazorx> bx/iirc would be as simple... xchat is also possible :)
18:56:23 <Wolf01> i use it with my DS when i use DSLinux :P
19:04:44 <Bjarni> oh no, the devil returned
19:05:24 <Ammlller> Rubidium: commit 11086 solved our desync problem, thank you very much...
19:05:39 <Sacro> Bjarni: with my new shiny hard drvies :D
19:05:46 <Sacro> though i need to find some screws to attach them
19:06:00 <Sacro> having wasted an hour or so trying to plug the sata port back in :(
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19:19:37 <Sacro> you can't prove anything
19:20:05 *** Sacro was kicked by Bjarni (I don't have to have proof of anything as long as my word is the law in here)
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19:22:15 <Bjarni> usually he returns within 30 sec
19:23:09 <Belugas> 3 minutes for resurrection
19:26:03 <Wolf01> his soul splitted from the body in the last netsplit
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20:11:19 <TrueBrain> I wish people would stop joining and leaving...
20:12:24 <TrueBrain> @kick Wolf01 and stay out!
20:12:24 *** Wolf01 was kicked by DorpsGek (and stay out!)
20:12:34 <Wolf01> but i left and joined :(
20:12:49 <Wolf01> you said join and leave
20:12:51 <Prof_Frink> /ignore #openttd JOINS
20:12:55 <Bjarni> I'm sorry, but I have to leave and join once in a while
20:13:04 <Bjarni> like when I turn the computer off or reboots
20:13:26 <ln-> YOU TURN THE COMPUTER OFF??? what kind of a freak does that and admits it.
20:14:01 <Bjarni> people, who cares about the environment
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20:14:44 <Prof_Frink> If you're gonna turn your computer off, IRC from somewhere else.
20:14:48 <Bjarni> like environment around a bed
20:15:04 <Bjarni> specially the audio environment
20:15:45 <Rubidium> Bjarni: use a more silent computer
20:16:03 <Bjarni> I can't really do that
20:16:11 <Bjarni> you see, I already switched to a silent computer
20:16:31 <Bjarni> but I can still hear the HD itself (even though it's a silent HD)
20:16:48 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Have your computer somewhere else, and a flash-based thin client in your room
20:16:55 <Bjarni> besides wouldn't it be a waste of power?
20:17:03 <Bjarni> since I wouldn't need it to be on
20:18:32 <Rubidium> configure your OS so it stops the HD when it isn't used, or can't your OS handle that?
20:21:40 <Bjarni> it will not stop the HD with the swap partition and the log
20:24:19 <Rubidium> as if those are important in an idle system?
20:24:46 <Bjarni> it will write to the log if I keep IRC open
20:24:58 <Bjarni> to store all the people quitting and joining
20:25:04 <Rubidium> then configure it to not flush it immediatelly
20:25:24 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: mount a flash drive as ~/.irssi
20:25:45 <Bjarni> but then.... why waste power on a computer that's not supposed to do anything?
20:27:44 <Rubidium> time == money, and waiting for the thing to boot takes time, i.e. money. Most likely more than what it would cost to keep it turned on ;)
20:29:00 <SmatZ> I wonder how much time took developing OpenTTD (=I would like to know the money devs would be paid, if it weren't under GPL)
20:29:57 <Bjarni> and how many hours do you expect us to spent figuring out the answer for that question?
20:35:30 <Belugas> TrueBrain did some calculations a while ago (i think it was him) and it was evaluated that OpenTTD is worth 4 milions$ regarding dev-work
20:35:48 <Belugas> does it answer the question, SmatZ?
20:36:22 <SmatZ> Belugas: yes, thanks, interesting, really - you all would be very rich now...
20:36:45 <SmatZ> Bjarni: maybe, 0, maybe...
20:36:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r11087 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
20:36:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-09-10 22:36:01
20:36:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 6 fixed by tucalipe (6)
20:36:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 6 fixed by arnaullv (6)
20:36:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 6 fixed by webfreakz (6)
20:36:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 6 fixed by kristjans (6)
20:36:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 6 fixed by glx (6)
20:38:26 <TrueBrain> Belugas: yeah, I used sloccount :) Current value: 4.5M dollar
20:38:39 <TrueBrain> cpp: 115185 (88.20%)
20:38:51 <TrueBrain> ansic: 15046 (11.52%)
20:39:03 <TrueBrain> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 130,591
20:39:07 <TrueBrain> Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 33.32 (399.87)
20:39:11 <TrueBrain> (Basic COCOMO model, Person-Months = 2.4 * (KSLOC**1.05))
20:39:15 <TrueBrain> Schedule Estimate, Years (Months) = 2.03 (24.36)
20:39:19 <TrueBrain> (Basic COCOMO model, Months = 2.5 * (person-months**0.38))
20:39:19 <TrueBrain> Estimated Average Number of Developers (Effort/Schedule) = 16.42
20:39:19 <TrueBrain> Total Estimated Cost to Develop = $ 4,501,430
20:39:19 <TrueBrain> (average salary = $56,286/year, overhead = 2.40).
20:39:20 <Bjarni> I don't think we could be paid full for the work as a lot of the time is spent on stuff we had to check because we aren't professionally schooled developers (at least not all of us)
20:39:54 <Bjarni> like it would be unlikely to hire a person to port the game, who never ported anything before
20:40:27 <TrueBrain> sorry about the spam, it was more text then I assumed :s
20:40:39 <TrueBrain> 2 years of fulltime work, not bad :)
20:40:44 <Bjarni> I did manage to get it working within a week though... had a serious SDL issue (nice undocumented feature)
20:40:56 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: no, that is just you
20:41:02 <MiHaMeK> TrueBrain: well, if I would be an investor, I'd expect much more stuff for 4.5M usd
20:41:19 <TrueBrain> MiHaMeK: then you are being unrealistic :)
20:41:30 <TrueBrain> sloccount in fact returns a value that most of the time is very close to the real value
20:41:51 <TrueBrain> just remember that it includes maintanance and stuff
20:41:57 <MiHaMeK> TrueBrain: did it count language files as source code?
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20:42:43 <MiHaMeK> TrueBrain: it still looks unrealistic to me, but I'm too tired to argue on this :)
20:42:56 <Bjarni> translators can be ridicules expensive, but sometimes we can question the quality of our translations :(
20:43:07 <Bjarni> odd translations are usually found though
20:43:24 <MiHaMeK> Bjarni: yeah, you know what: only those err who works something :)
20:43:25 <Prof_Frink> "My hovercraft is full of eels."
20:43:26 <TrueBrain> MiHaMeK: :) If the 130,000 lines is realistic, it is pretty correct ;)
20:44:08 <TrueBrain> 0 src_lang (none) <- it skipped the lang dir ;)
20:44:24 <TrueBrain> maybe I should run sloccount every night :p
20:44:32 <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: not only stuff like that. I once noticed a Danish translator and started to wonder if he was dyslexic or something (he left a while ago)
20:45:18 <Prof_Frink> TrueBrain: What if you count graphics work?
20:45:44 <TrueBrain> Prof_Frink: sloccount only does, as the name suggests, count Source Line Of Code, so no graphics work for you :)
20:46:29 <Bjarni> so spending time on changing code will not be counted either
20:46:41 <TrueBrain> is already included in the model
20:46:52 <TrueBrain> bug fixes, minor rewrites
20:47:04 <TrueBrain> of course, starting from scratch isn't detected ;)
20:47:13 <MiHaMeK> ok, i'm pretty tired, let's go to sleep
20:47:26 <TrueBrain> MiHaMeK: have a jolly good night :)
20:47:42 <MiHaMeK> TrueBrain: thanks, i wish the same to you :)
20:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, that part went into the wrong window...
20:47:53 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: the 'uck' part?
20:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, something like that :p
20:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, i actually wanted to type "df"
20:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> now i have a stray d in the console window, and don't know how to handle it
20:48:50 <Bjarni> there is one thing that's not counted: the time spent on patches that resulted in something we couldn't use and where the patch would have to be started over based on a new idea
20:49:04 <Bjarni> since the original patch was never committed
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20:56:57 <Prof_Frink> Also not counted is thwarting the opposition by giving patchman a WoW trial
20:57:53 <TrueBrain> for your pleasure ;)
21:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> am i reading that correctly as "if there were 16 people working full time, they'd have taken 2 years to program this"
21:04:31 <Rubidium> according to some emperical research
21:04:41 <Prof_Frink> "If there were an infinite number of monkeys..."
21:05:04 <TrueBrain> anyway, it misses a few files, it adds other files...
21:05:06 <svip> But can you have an infinite number of monkeys without dramatically creating a black hole?
21:05:08 <TrueBrain> it is a nice estimated, nothing more :p
21:05:23 <ln-> offtopic: what does "düssel" mean in düsseldorf?
21:05:28 <Eddi|zuHause2> so, who is now paying the 4.5 Mio $?
21:05:33 <Prof_Frink> You just need an infinite volume to contain them.
21:05:47 <svip> You are aware that putting about 40 to 50 billion people in the same hall will create a black hole.
21:05:47 <Rubidium> basically the developers
21:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: pretty problematic to determine, village names change a lot over time
21:07:28 <Rubidium> ln-: In the 7th and 8th centuries, the odd farming or fishing settlement could be found at the point where the small river Düssel flows into the Rhine. It was from such settlements that the city of Düsseldorf grew.
21:07:35 <TrueBrain> svip: even blackholes have a finite mass
21:08:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, would be my first guess, too, name of a river/stream
21:08:00 <TrueBrain> [23:05] <svip> You are aware that putting about 40 to 50 billion people in the same hall will create a black hole. <- LOL! That aint true :)
21:08:03 <Rubidium> from our famous, but not to be used in scientific studies, source
21:08:08 <TrueBrain> you have your statement reversed :)
21:08:11 <svip> But the whole idea about producing an infinite amount of monkeys is ludicrous.
21:08:38 <TrueBrain> to fit 40 to 50 billion (semi-living) people in the same hall, you need a blackhole created there :)
21:08:38 <svip> Consider the aftermatch.
21:09:02 <TrueBrain> main difficulty is: you won't be able to see them...... ;)
21:09:03 <svip> Well, the mass of 40 to 50 billion people.
21:09:05 <Rubidium> svip: why, producing an infinite number of rabbits is easy -> fib(infite) == infinite ;)
21:09:22 <svip> But we are talking about monkeys.
21:09:32 <TrueBrain> okay, let's talk about sheep
21:09:33 <svip> What did you get in biology?
21:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> just make the monkeys reproduce like rabbits
21:09:41 <svip> Sheep doesn't have a plural form.
21:09:54 <svip> Same reason we don't talk about furniture.
21:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> i thought sheep was already the plural form...
21:10:15 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: and the singular form is...? :)
21:10:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are lots of words in german whose plural is the same as singular
21:10:29 <svip> German is just crazy apparently.
21:10:30 <Prof_Frink> germans are crazy.
21:10:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> although sheep is not one of them ;)
21:10:33 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: sheep are never alone
21:10:47 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: good point :)
21:10:52 <Prof_Frink> orudge will be with them. Always.
21:10:54 <svip> But let's not mention that the Danish word for sheep doesn't have a plural form either.
21:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> see, they got that from the danish, not from the german
21:11:26 <svip> Sheep is "får" in Danish.
21:11:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> not the word, the plural creation :p
21:11:54 <svip> I'm not sure about that either.
21:12:08 <svip> Otherwise I am marking your comments with [citation needed]
21:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> but what is the etymology of "får"? it is very different
21:12:32 <Rubidium> svip: the Danish just named the animal after the stuff it creates, i.e. fur
21:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> that explains it
21:12:51 <svip> But that is called... "uld" in Danish, Rubidium.
21:13:16 <svip> Hey, Bjarni, you gotta help me out here.
21:13:18 <ln-> Bjarni: Which one do you produce?
21:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> but in german, "Schaf(e)" produce "Wolle"
21:14:31 <ln-> "lammas/lampaat" produce "villa"
21:14:57 <svip> Why are there two l's in Llama?
21:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Herkunft:aus westgerm. skæpa „Schaf“; Herkunft unklar; vermutlich von schaben [1]
21:15:17 <Bjarni> because it's one short of Lllama
21:15:41 <svip> :( I thought we weren't going to talk about sheep.
21:15:47 <svip> Let's go back to the infinite monkeys.
21:16:00 <Eddi|zuHause2> svip: same as there is "ll" in "Mallorca"
21:16:08 <Rubidium> because they spoke it as ljama? (the spanish that is)
21:16:26 <svip> But if I recall correctly, English isn't Spanish.
21:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> but they took it as loanword
21:16:49 <Sacro> and two is in llanfairpyth... whatsit
21:17:07 <Rubidium> ah well, better get back to war with the UK then ;)
21:17:07 <svip> Why not add a silent M in front of it?
21:17:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: could be some celtic roots in spanish
21:17:30 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: you should ask Born_Acorn
21:17:35 <Sacro> he is from the land of the welsh
21:17:47 <Bjarni> hi, do you live in MUK? :)
21:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> i never understood how so many beginning letters in english are silent
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21:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause2> like in "Pterodactyl", the 'P' is silent in english...
21:18:42 * Prof_Frink stabs Eddi|zuHause2 with a knife
21:19:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, also "Knight" (from german "Knecht" == lower vasall)
21:19:18 <svip> And why do they even have H in French?
21:19:19 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: you should come to Hull
21:19:27 <Sacro> pronounced 'Ull round 'ere
21:20:01 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause2: "You silly English ker-nigets"
21:20:26 <Prof_Frink> Dammit, now I want to watch Python as well
21:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Karnickel?" no, those are bunnies :p
21:20:40 <svip> I thought he wanted to code in Python.
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21:21:09 <Bjarni> <svip> I thought he wanted to code in Python. <-- he isn't THAT crazy
21:21:22 <Sacro> Prof_Frink: i don't think he wants one
21:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> probably half the jokes in monty python get lost in the translation
21:21:29 <Sacro> he's already got one, you see
21:21:29 <svip> I coded my website in Python, Bjarni.
21:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, i need to learn some python these days...
21:23:17 <Sacro> Bjarni: i fart in your general direction, your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries
21:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> my professor and especially his assistant do a lot in model checking, now my project is to get some "real world" code from a company, and build a translator from python and C++ into those models
21:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> thus i need to have some kind of an idea how a python program looks like
21:25:20 <Bjarni> Sacro: those nuts are coconuts :P
21:25:38 <Bjarni> coconuts are way bigger than that
21:26:50 <Bjarni> I already told him that, but I don't think he understood it :P
21:28:39 <Bjarni> see, he just admitted it
21:28:56 <Bjarni> "* Sacro [...] his nuts"
21:28:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> in german "Eins auf die Nuß geben" means to slap one's head
21:29:04 <Sacro> i've got a lovely bunch of coconuts...
21:29:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> actually not slap, more like knock
21:29:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> (another silent 'k')
21:29:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are even silent 'g', like in "gnome"
21:31:39 * Prof_Frink throws Magdalene College at Eddi|zuHause2
21:31:40 <Sacro> gnome doesn't have a silent g
21:31:56 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: The little man on the toadstool does
21:32:17 <Prof_Frink> the GNU Network Object Model Environment doesn't
21:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> in all kinds of english i heard, "gnome" (as in the little person) had silent "g"
21:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> there's even a joke about it in Charmed
21:33:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> which is totally untranslateable into german
21:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> because in german, the g is not silent
21:33:25 <Prof_Frink> Tefad: Yeah, that's weird
21:33:44 <Tefad> anything gnu related has hard g.
21:33:51 <Tefad> so.. guh-nome for gnome.
21:34:11 <Tefad> unless some developer is being weird.
21:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> english is totally weird
21:34:30 <Prof_Frink> The wildebeest (plural, wildebeest or wildebeests), also called the gnu (pronounced /nu/ or /nju/)
21:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> whatever a "mutt" is
21:35:53 <Diabolic-Angel> a mail client?
21:37:34 <Sacro> grr, sat waiching python now
21:38:42 <Tefad> mutt is a mix of a lot of things
21:38:59 <Tefad> english is derived directly from old german (or something)
21:39:15 <Tefad> however the english speaking lands were occupied by french speakers
21:39:27 <Tefad> and the english language took on many french words
21:39:48 <Tefad> so english has german and french rooted words for just about everything
21:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> english is a horrible mix of latin, german, nordic and french
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21:40:48 <Bjarni> 1000 year old English looks like Nordic
21:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> basically everyone who ever conquered britain :p
21:41:10 <Bjarni> Germany conquered England?
21:41:32 <Bjarni> AFAIK Hitler didn't win the Battle of Britain
21:41:44 <svip> I have to rewrite my story book.
21:41:47 <[Surge]> 10 barbarians with clubs
21:42:00 <Tefad> as there are native languages to the british isles
21:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> german tribes ("Angeln" and "Sachsen") moved to britain after the romans left, hence the name England (Angelland)
21:42:26 <svip> They still use the term Anglo.
21:42:29 <Tefad> the normans took a while, but invaded later
21:42:50 <svip> Wikipedia even has an Anglo-Saxon edition.
21:44:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> incidentally, the name "France" also comes from a german tribe ("Franken") who moved westwards
21:44:57 <Bjarni> I have a good story about languages. Some old Dane (from the western parts of the country) went to London and went to a pub. He found some young ladies and started talking to them in the only language he knew (try and guess which one). His son noticed, went over and asked the ladies if they could understand him and they replied that it was a bit hard, but they guessed it was because he was from Scotland
21:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, languages from similar groups often have a lot in common
21:46:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> and since english belongs to almost any group... :p
21:48:13 <Bjarni> actually old people from the western part of Denmark do speak something that sounds closer to Scottish than the language spoken by young people or people from the rest of the country
21:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> i would probably understand a dutch person if he was speaking slow enough
21:48:46 <Bjarni> the odd part is that I might have better luck understanding a Scottish person o_O
21:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> i always get adjectives and averbs wrong
21:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause2> because they are the same in german
21:49:10 <svip> Like that language they made in Skåne, Bjarni?
21:49:19 <svip> Which neither Swedes nor Danes could understand.
21:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are weird german dialects around also
21:50:13 <Bjarni> at least I tend to understand their questions and I think they understand my replies
21:50:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> in Thüringen you occasionally have villages who can't understand people from the neighbouring village
21:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause2> because they speak totally different dialects
21:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> note that Thüringen was one of the most fractured areas before the first "unification" (in 1871)
21:51:16 <Bjarni> I like the story about a group of people from the far eastern part of Denmark meeting a group from the far western part and they needed a translator :D
21:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> meaning states of the size of one castle+surrounding village
21:52:29 <Bjarni> sounds like a place where diplomacy had to be very efficient and active it would be total chaos
21:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause2> there's a most funny line in the "False friends" list on wikipedia within german: "Word: 'na', meaning: 'yes'/'no' (depending on dialect), misunderstanding: 'no'/'yes' (the other meaning)"
21:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> e.g. in bavaria "na" means "no", while in saxony "na" means "yes".
21:55:56 <Bjarni> this sucks if you are asked something like "are you guilty?"
21:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> other common misunderstandings between germans from different regions involve clock times
21:56:21 <Bjarni> you could be beheaded for admitting a crime you didn't commit :P
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21:57:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> e.g. in one part you say "viertel vier" (meaning 15:15), while in other parts you say "viertel nach vier" (meaning 16:15)
21:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> so if you show up an hour early/late you either forgot summer/winter time or you fell in that trap
21:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> btw, it is also a problem with translating to english, germans say "halb zwölf" (meaning 11:30) while the english say "half past twelve" (meaning 12:30)
22:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, most west germans don't understand the time "dreiviertel vier" (15:45) [where they say "viertel vor vier"]
22:06:00 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause2> btw, it is also a problem with translating to english, germans say "halb zwölf" (meaning 11:30) while the english say "half past twelve" (meaning 12:30) <-- there is the same problem between Danish and English
22:07:06 <guru3> you can say half twelve and have it mean 11:30 in english
22:08:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> guru3: a friend of mine tried that, and it did not quite work :p
22:09:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> but i assume that is also very regional
22:09:22 <guru3> well honestly i would probably only use it on eleven
22:09:27 <guru3> say 'half evelent' and have it mean 10:30
22:09:34 <guru3> or maybe it's cause i live in sweden :/
22:09:41 <Bjarni> I think it would work in the area where peter1138 lives
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22:15:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, "Märchenstunde" is such a great show :p
22:17:23 <Bjarni> sounds like either a chick series or porn :P
22:18:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> they take famous german fairy tales, and tell how it "really happened"
22:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a comedy series
22:18:52 <svip> Then everything is alright.
22:18:59 <svip> <Sacro> porn? << Do you have that on highlight?
22:19:08 <Bjarni> so it's as funny as "Verstenen Sie spaß?"?
22:19:16 <Sacro> svip: no, i was just passing
22:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> different kind of funny ;)
22:19:30 <Bjarni> just like "lesbian, tits and boobs"
22:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> PS: it's "Verstehen"
22:19:48 <Bjarni> PPS: I knew I had it wrong :P
22:19:54 <svip> You are sorta getting Sacro in the mood.
22:20:25 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Verstehen Sie Spaß" is more like reality fun (hidden camera)
22:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> "Märchenstunde" is scripted fun
22:20:58 <svip> He is off fapping it off.
22:21:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> yesterday he was happily quoting weird foreign language phrases
22:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> then you came along!
22:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> that cannot be a coincidence
22:21:51 <Bjarni> I was offline the whole day yesterday
22:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> that's what i was talking about
22:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> he was fine, until you came back
22:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> you must have brought in a disease
22:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> i never know how to spell that one
22:23:14 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: disease
22:23:26 <Sacro> Bjarni: Jeg er allergisk over for muskatnød
22:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> can i see more of that alledged "fixing"?
22:23:57 <Sacro> Hvor er den nærmeste rutsjebane?
22:23:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> what does "Jeg er" mean?
22:23:59 <Bjarni> Sacro: so you have a problem getting near nuts
22:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> something like "are you"?
22:24:08 <Bjarni> I guess you aren't gay then
22:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> or rather "i am"?
22:25:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes to which one? :p
22:25:11 <Sacro> Unnskyld, Frøken, kunne De fortelle meg hvor i nærheten jeg kan få kjøpt et forkle?
22:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause2> this is right --->
22:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't understand that one...
22:26:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> doesn't change anything :p
22:27:13 <Bjarni> we think that forkle means apron
22:27:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> only that "Verkleidung" also can mean two things
22:28:05 <Sacro> De jättelika kräftorna försöker ta över Jorden!
22:28:06 <Bjarni> but I don't get the dirty remark in that line... and there is always dirty stuff in the odd quotes Sacro copy pastes
22:28:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> he migrated from uncyclopedia
22:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> to pure weirdness
22:28:50 <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: do you understand "Frøken"?
22:29:06 <Sacro> Oho! Tota noin ... Eihän se vaa ollu' sun ajokoira?
22:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: i said i don't
22:29:19 <ln-> zomfg, sacro has learned finnish.
22:29:35 <svip> That looks like flaux Finnish.
22:30:37 <ln-> Eddi|zuHause2: Fräulein. even begins and ends with same letters.
22:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> there are lots of words which begin and end with the same letters :p
22:34:53 <Sacro> Miért nevet - annyira rosszul beszélek magyarul?
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22:35:35 <Bjarni> the stuff Sacro says went from idiotic to ununderstandable
22:35:59 <Sacro> Ich bin kein Mitglied dieser Konferenz, dennoch möchte ich einen Pinguin.
22:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> important phrase if you happen to stumble into a linux conference in germany... :p
22:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> it'll probably also get you a beer in a beergarden :p
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22:39:29 <Sacro> Wat jij nodig hebt is voedselvergiftiging
22:41:26 <glx> good luck to get the right meaning ;)
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22:44:03 <Sacro> Geben Sie mich dass Geleeschaumgummiring. Ihre HinterteileSIND im Begriff zu explodieren!
22:50:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> we had that discussion yesterday already...
22:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> also, i have never met persons who have multiple backs :p
22:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> (on the same person)
22:52:16 <ln-> yesterday it was "dab" though
22:52:55 <Diabolic-Angel> qdb needs a rss feed
22:56:39 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's so totally old...
22:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro doesn't even know where the error is...
22:59:21 <Sacro> a^2 - ta = b^2 - tb <- i don't see how he got that
22:59:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> that one is correct
22:59:55 <glx> <prepared>(a - t/2)^2 = (b - t/2)^2
22:59:55 <glx> <prepared>a - t/2 = b - t/2
23:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it shouldn't
23:01:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: he takes the square root on both sides
23:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> because 2^2 = (-2)^2, but 2 != -2
23:02:23 <glx> (a -t/2)(a -t/2) != (b - t/2)(b -t/2)
23:02:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> which is the error they abuse her
23:02:58 <Bjarni> all Sacro will see is "[garbage] abuse her"
23:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> it's funnier with roots of higher degree ;)
23:07:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> because you get complex results
23:08:12 <ln-> i wonder how common an error it is to assume sqrt(4) would be +/-2.. one mathematically talented guy at school thought so too, once.
23:08:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> a student i know here failed in the maths exam with an easy question like "calculate the 4th roots of i"
23:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: it totally depends on context
23:09:38 <ln-> in what context sqrt(4) would be something else than 2?
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23:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: in a context where "sqrt" means both branches
23:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> like when you want to extend sqrt analytically (or holomorphically, which is the same, depending on which book you read) from the positive real axis to the complex plane
23:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can choose a random branch
23:15:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> not necessarily the positive one
23:15:11 <ln-> hmm, wikipedia seems to agree with your definition.
23:17:37 <ln-> blah, i'll stick to addition with small natural numbers from now on.
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23:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> you can reduce that to peano arithmetics :p
23:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> so you only need "zero" (or "one", depending on flavour) and "successor"
23:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> addition then reduces to simple rules like
23:20:46 <Eddi|zuHause2> plus(X,zero) = X
23:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> plus(X, succ(Y)) = succ(plus(X, Y))
23:22:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> (those also come in different flavours, like one which evaluates the left operand)
23:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> multiplication is easy, too, you just replace "plus" with "mult", "succ" with "plus" and slightly adapt the right sides
23:23:57 <_42_> Sacro, Bjarni (~Bjarni@0x50a41604.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) was last seen quitting #openttd.notice 1 minute ago (10.09. 23:22) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 17 hours 38 minutes there.
23:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause2> it gets really funny when you want to define integer division ;)
23:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, i have heard of something like that also
23:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> basically they made all crossings "right before left"
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