IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-09-02
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00:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause2> isn't "stamgast" a little exaggerated for someone who stays only for half an hour?
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05:49:10 <simon444> OpenTTD is going bankrupt?
05:49:29 <simon444> why not ask for donated server parts
05:56:14 <simon444> I am donating $130AUD
05:56:43 <simon444> just wondering if there are any paypal fees
05:57:18 <simon444> i.e. are you recognized by paypal for being a charity
05:57:45 <simon444> I mean cross-currency fees
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06:18:05 <mcbane> they are not goig bankrupt
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06:52:52 <simon888> <simon444> mMmMm sEaWeeD
06:52:52 <simon888> <simon444> it is the stuff dolphin's get high on
06:52:52 <simon888> <simon444> (it says that on the pack of seaweed I bought yesterday)
06:52:52 <simon888> <simon444> (talk about weird)
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09:27:26 <peter1138> do they betray your secrets?
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09:37:22 <mcbane> btw what hapened to celestar didnt see him for longer time.
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09:53:29 <Rubidium> mcbane: ask him when he returns
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10:12:16 <Chris82> I've got a little problem with the new GetDisplayRunningCost() function
10:12:49 <Chris82> I modified the original line to look like this Money GetDisplayRunningCost() const { return (this->GetRunningCost() * VehRunCostFactor() >> 8); }
10:13:04 <Chris82> this will multiply the running costs with a certain factor e.g. 10
10:13:30 <Chris82> it works fine for ships, aircraft and road vehicles but for trains it calculates the running cost * 10 * 10 why is that??
10:14:17 <Rubidium> because you do the * VehRunCostFactor in the train Train::GetRunningCost too?
10:14:58 <Chris82> nope that's not the problem unfortunately
10:15:21 <Chris82> I have to do it there so the actual running costs are properly calculated as well not only the display
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10:15:30 <Chris82> but even when I remove it there the display is still * 10 * 10
10:15:42 <Chris82> only the calculated costs are wrong then as expected
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10:16:36 <Rubidium> without more clues I can't help you
10:17:23 <Rubidium> and I'm not going to be happy when I get a 500 kiB diff file either
10:17:38 <Chris82> well I am a bit lost right now... I thought the way Vehicle Running Costs are displayed and calculated have been unified
10:18:32 <Chris82> so I thought I can simply the daypatch to just do VehRunCostFactor() * GetRunngingCost() and VehRunCostFactor() * GetDisplayRunCostFactor()
10:18:48 <Chris82> but in fact that's not possible because the costs are still calculated seperately in numerous files
10:19:34 <Noldo> could you put the * factor in to the GetRunningCost() funxtion ?
10:20:24 <Chris82> I don't quite get how GetRunningCost works
10:20:52 <Chris82> for example virtual Money GetRunningCost() const { return 0; } ...how does this return the actual running costs of a vehicle??
10:21:26 <Noldo> it's just a base class function that is overloaded in the derived classes
10:21:40 <Noldo> it's propably never called
10:22:54 <Chris82> I also don't understand why GetDisplayRunningCost() is only used in the specific vehicle files and not in the build vehicle gui and engine gui
10:22:59 <Chris82> that's pretty confusing :/
10:23:29 <Chris82> so basically there are two different ways vehicle running costs are handled now
10:23:29 <Noldo> it was specificly inserted to be used by the vehicle window unification
10:23:50 <Rubidium> who said everything gets unified in the same single step?
10:24:04 <Chris82> yeah but I thought it was supposed to simplify things, instead it made things more complicated
10:24:23 <Chris82> well ok if it gets changed I have to wait I guess
10:24:35 <Noldo> no you can just use the new one
10:25:52 <Rubidium> problem is that engines are completely different entities, i.e. the build vehicle GUI and engine GUI use different variables and are only for a single part of an engine and not the complete thing.
10:28:41 <Chris82> I think I take a few steps back and try to do it step by step... i.e. first make the display right and then secondly make the calculation output correct values
11:17:57 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11036 /branches/noai/ (155 files in 12 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync: with trunk r10774:11035.
11:59:19 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11037 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (140 files in 8 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Sync: with trunk r10844:11035.
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12:24:31 <TrueBrain> then he was all like: wow!
12:28:17 <Noldo> the dudes were like "dude!"
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12:57:01 <redmonkey> i think i've found a bug
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12:58:11 <redmonkey> the maximum rating in the company performance is 1000, right?
12:59:07 <redmonkey> but the AI suddenly have a company performance rating of ~8600
13:02:06 <redmonkey> i'm gonna upload a screenshot
13:05:00 <svip> Could look like a wrapped unsigned int.
13:05:55 <redmonkey> don't tell me, i'm not a programmer :)
13:06:17 <svip> It could be a bug in the graph window.
13:06:24 <svip> Try removing your own graph, redmonkey.
13:06:37 <svip> :( Can't remember if that is possible.
13:07:03 <SmatZ> redmonkey: can you clink on details for come other company than red?
13:08:55 <redmonkey> another shot, that shows that everybody is a tycoon:
13:09:27 <svip> But yet you haven't show us the details for the other companies.
13:09:39 <svip> See the "Detailed performance rating" window?
13:09:44 <svip> We are not interested in red.
13:10:42 <Noldo> which uint has valuerange of 0 - ~8640 ?
13:10:47 <svip> SmatZ: This guy is also working with some extreme cases.
13:11:13 <SmatZ> svip: I am going to like him ^_^
13:13:36 <glx> total should be 50 not 8179
13:13:39 <svip> redmonkey: Thanks for bothering to play to 2157 to find this bug. :)
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13:16:58 <Noldo> it rates the money wrong?
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13:19:48 <SmatZ> what is 'Show company liveries' patch good for?
13:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> SmatZ: it shows/hides the custom liveries of other companies
13:21:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
13:22:21 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: what are 'custom liveries'?
13:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> SmatZ: like painting busses blue/white and lorries green/white and trains yellow/red
13:23:59 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: ah, thank you
13:24:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> hiding them will show all vehicles in the base company colour
13:25:19 <Bjarni> actually it could be interesting to have red/white busses and another company has white/red busses (if the grf supports this feature). Might make a mess if they are driving in the same town :)
13:25:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Noldo> it rates the money wrong? <- it could be the loan
13:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> or something completely unrelated, as they all have similar rating
13:27:40 <Bjarni> SmatZ: for the record: the default vehicles don't support 2nd colours, so to use this feature, you need to use newgrf. You can always have white trains and yellow busses if you like though
13:28:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> the DBSetXL does not support company colours at all
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13:34:06 <SmatZ> Bjarni: so this is the "extended colour scheme"? when I select "light blue" for Trains - Electric engines, it remains yellow :-x
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13:35:56 <Bjarni> you can select one colour for steam, one for electric and so on
13:37:21 <SmatZ> Bjarni: I have some problems comparing _patches.xxx with some value ... eg. when it prints if printf("%d %d\n",_patches.xxx == 2, _patches.xxx);
13:37:39 <SmatZ> so even when it is ==2, comparison is false
13:38:20 <Bjarni> there is something wrong with the colours :(
13:40:34 <SmatZ> what is "error code 40"?
13:40:51 <Bjarni> you have to enable each line (the square to the left of the line) for it to overwrite the globally set colour
13:40:59 <Bjarni> <SmatZ> what is "error code 40"? <--- user error
13:47:43 <SmatZ> hmm I will switch to gcc 4.1.2 ...
13:49:58 <SmatZ> hmm it didn't help me at all :(
13:50:13 *** rm^away is now known as redmonkey
13:52:22 <SmatZ> gcc 4.2.0 and 4.1.2 work in a different way...
14:05:35 <redmonkey> uhmmm, shall i report that performance rating bug i found, or is it enough that i told you about it?
14:05:50 <SmatZ> redmonkey: it is better to open a bug report
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14:10:21 <redmonkey> SmatZ: in what category would you put it in?
14:10:38 <SmatZ> ^^^ this is my output...
14:11:40 <SmatZ> when _patches.loading_indicators == 2
14:12:47 <SmatZ> seems the compiler expects it to be 0 or 1... but why?
14:14:04 <Noldo> it still thinks it's a bool?
14:14:39 <SmatZ> but how can I force it to think it is NOT a bool?
14:15:08 <SmatZ> SDT_VAR(Patches, loading_indicators, SLE_UINT8, S,MS, 2, 0, 2, 0, STR_CONFIG_PATCHES_LOADING_INDICATORS, RedrawScreen),
14:15:16 <SmatZ> ^^^ it is defined as UINT8 ....
14:17:26 <SmatZ> I am absolutelly lost :-x
14:18:59 <Noldo> that printf is just to test the value of _patched.loading_indicators ?
14:22:07 <Noldo> what happens with switch (_patches.loading_indicators)
14:22:15 <peter1138> bool loading_indicators; // Show loading indicators
14:22:26 <peter1138> that might have something to do with it
14:25:20 <SmatZ> peter1138: yes, it was the problem, thanks again :-x a bad day today maybe :)
14:25:32 <SmatZ> the same as other days..
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14:44:18 <SmatZ> redmonkey: does this problem occur in 0.5.3-RC3 ? in current nightly? is it possible to a savegame?
14:45:03 <redmonkey> i only have the 0.5.2 stable version here
14:45:42 <redmonkey> oh yes, i forgot to attach the savegame
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14:58:48 <redmonkey> ok, i attached the savegame
15:28:24 <ln-> not yet, i'm "reading" for an exam...
15:32:42 <Bjarni> that's how some of the bash quotes starts
15:32:56 <Bjarni> studying for an exam way too late
15:33:43 <Bjarni> like "is base another word for acid" on the night before the chemistry exam x)
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15:48:56 <peter1138> fortunately my chemistry education never got up to using 'base' ...
15:49:33 * Prof_Frink steals peter1138's complete supply of sodium hydroxide
15:49:52 <Prof_Frink> All your base are belong to me!
15:54:50 <Bjarni> you know, chemistry can be great fun
15:55:18 <ln-> as long as it involves mixing liquids of different colours
15:55:22 <Bjarni> like mixing sulphur acid with sugar
15:55:34 <Prof_Frink> glx: Doesn't do much
15:55:37 <Bjarni> but do open the window first :)
15:55:53 <Prof_Frink> Try a group I metal instead
15:56:30 <Prof_Frink> Or mix Fe2O3 with Al, and ignite with Mg
15:56:56 <Bjarni> most channels talk about acid... we talk about metals and bases :D
15:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> that gets a little hot :p
15:57:01 <Prof_Frink> Or make a fuel-air explosion-powered spudgun
15:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> letting phosphor dry up is also fun :)
15:58:11 <Prof_Frink> Make a thermite shell and fire that at something you don't like
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16:36:03 <svip> Bjarni: I thought we talked about trains.
16:37:16 <redmonkey> uhmm, is someone able to remove attachments from bugs.openttd.org here?
16:39:12 <redmonkey> because the owner of the savegame that i posted doesnt want it to be published :(
16:39:24 <redmonkey> i told him that it isnt possible.. but i will ask
16:40:19 <glx> it's possible but a savegame is helpful for this kind of bug
16:41:30 <svip> :/ Why doesn't the owner want it to be posted, redmonkey ?
16:41:46 <redmonkey> aren't the screenshot enough? if yes, just remove it. if no, don't remove it..
16:42:17 <redmonkey> svip: good question. maybe he doesn't wat others to see his build-style :)
16:42:23 <glx> screenshots show the bug but savegame may explain it
16:42:35 <svip> That's not why we are downloading, redmonkey.
16:43:50 <redmonkey> ok no problem. if it's good for the developement of the game, leave it where it is ;)
16:48:14 <elmex> what are the 'Transfer Credits' for btw.? they are always 0 here
16:48:25 <elmex> even when picking up transfered stuff
16:52:53 <redmonkey> i'm also the owner of this savegame, because we played it as a network game together (teammode). but i've built 80% of everything. so i technically i'm the owner
16:53:15 <redmonkey> wait no, that was another game
16:53:27 <redmonkey> it's NOT a network game
16:54:41 <redmonkey> btw: where can i find the "what's new" section for every version?
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17:00:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> in changelog.txt?
17:03:06 <redmonkey> ahh yes. thank you!
17:19:25 <Tekky> Hi, I have a short question: The savegames of TTDPatch and OpenTTD are completely incompatible, aren't they?
17:19:47 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD -> TTDP, yes
17:19:53 <TrueBrain> TTDP -> OpenTTD, works partly
17:20:42 <TrueBrain> (so loading a TTDP savegame in OpenTTD, works for the basic part)
17:21:53 <Tekky> Thanks. I am currently designing a new PBS system for OpenTTD and needed to know whether people will be attempting to load their TTDPatch PBS track layouts into OpenTTD.
17:22:16 <TrueBrain> most extended things in TTDp (which are not in TTD) aren't loaded when loading such a savegame
17:22:19 <Tekky> Since my PBS system is very different, I wanted to know whether I need a TTDPatch compatibility mode.
17:22:20 <TrueBrain> some parts do, most don't
17:22:34 <TrueBrain> don't worry about it too much, okay? :)
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17:30:02 <elmex> thats gonna be exciting
17:32:44 <Bjarni> wait until you actually see it
17:32:54 <Bjarni> it's easier said than done :(
17:33:12 <Bjarni> however I still find it good news that somebody actually works on it :)
17:33:47 <elmex> yea, of course, but finally at least someone says he is doing it :)
17:35:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Tekky> Since my PBS system is very different, I wanted to know whether I need a TTDPatch compatibility mode. <- i'd vote no, just have a TTD compatibility mode, and downgrade TTDP PBS on load to TTD signals
17:36:34 <DaleStan> But what do you do when there are already multiple trains in a single block?
17:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's the user's fault :)
17:37:10 <Bjarni> make working PBS first and then we can consider loading afterwards
17:37:24 <DaleStan> The user's fault for using TTDPatch's PBS, or the user's fault for trying to load a TTDPatch save in Open?
17:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not like he couldn't just reload and pause immediately
17:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> in 98% of all cases, the trains exit normally anyway
17:38:47 <TrueBrain> For the general information: these are the opinions of individual users and are in no way related to the general line OpenTTD likes to follow. They can or can not match.
17:39:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> "may or may not" is probably more appropriate
17:39:30 <TrueBrain> yeah, my english sucks from time to time :p
17:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause3> i still think it's a non-issue
17:44:24 <Tekky> Sorry, I was afk. I am reading now.....
17:44:35 <TrueBrain> Wow, it can read! :p :p :p
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17:51:28 <Noldo> what kind of pbs system ttdpatch has?
17:51:41 <Tekky> I think that I will not offer any support for TTDPatch PBS signals, because my PBS is completely different and they therefore wouldn't be compatible anyway.
17:52:23 <DaleStan> What do you mean by "what kind"?
17:53:25 <Tekky> this is a good explanation of signals in TTDPatch, also including PBS signals.
17:55:07 <TrueBrain> Tekky, I like that name
17:56:23 <Tekky> hehe, I used the nick "TekBoy" when I was 16 years old :) But now that I am 28 I renamed myself to "Tekky", because the suffix "Boy" is no longer appropriate for a 28 year old :)
17:57:01 <TrueBrain> so TekOld should be better :p
17:57:34 <Tekky> well, I could have called myself TekMan, but that sounds too much like SpiderMan, BatMan, SuperMan, etc....
17:57:53 <Tekky> so I just called myself Tekky :)
18:00:21 <Tekky> Noldo: My PBS system will be completely different, though. My system will only have signals in front of intersections and not after intersections. This is because in my system, as in reality, signals are only placed in locations where trains are allowed to wait. And since trains are never supposed to wait inside an intersection, signals are only placed BEFORE intersections in my system, as in
18:00:37 <Tekky> reality. Also, my signals will show red by default and will only show green when a train has reserved a path past the signal.
18:01:39 <TrueBrain> Noldo: does it help?
18:03:49 <Tekky> The main thing I am currently thinking about now is whether I should still offer support for pre- and exit signal setups. These will be mostly redundant in my new PBS system, but maybe I should support them anyway for backward compatibility.
18:04:20 <Noldo> TrueBrain: no, but having set the request the way I did I'm forced to be content with it
18:04:21 <TrueBrain> a bit nasty to make it impossible to load OpenTTD savegames from before your ocmmit ;)
18:05:07 <Tekky> well, the savegames will still work, just the presignals will behave like normal PBS signals :)
18:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> Tekky: you should definitely have a switch (patch setting?) to say signals should behave exactly like before (TTD+presignals)
18:05:42 <Noldo> remainds me of the fact that there are two ways to ask "How many..." in finnish
18:06:36 <blathijs> Tekky: It sounds like you're taking a sensible and realisic approach to signaling, nice :-)
18:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> also you could have slightly different semantics for those signals
18:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> i also like the signalling... it will need a little getting used to, and change of building style...
18:08:56 <Tekky> Eddi: This will be not easy to make presignals behave the same way as before, because block and path signalling aren't very compatible. However, I am thinking about whether I should treat presignals in such a way that trains which pass the presignal must also reserve a route past the next exit signal. This won't be exactly the same behavior as current OpenTTD behavior, however I think
18:09:07 <Tekky> that all current track will be compatible with this system.
18:10:03 <Noldo> Tekky: doesn't that just mean that pre-exits are ignored?
18:11:30 <Tekky> no, normally trains must reserve a route TO the next signal in order to pass a signal. In my last post, I proposed that trains passing a presignal must reserve a route PAST the next exit signal.
18:11:59 <Tekky> or at least past the next signal, whether it is an exit signal or not.
18:12:26 <Noldo> but if you just treat exit signals as normal rail won't that make the train reserve track to the next signal on the way
18:12:54 <Tekky> blathijs: Yes, I have spent many months thinking about my PBS system and finding a good design.
18:13:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> i like that idea :)
18:13:36 <blathijs> Tekky: Did you write it down somewhere?
18:14:22 <svip> I didn't understand a bit.
18:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> Tekky: what i find most disturbing about silently upgrading would be the ability to open up one-way routes for 2-way travel
18:15:06 <Noldo> maybe the tekky-one-ways should be special signals
18:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> needs more map bits...
18:15:33 <Noldo> I feel that there will be a need for both kinds of one-ways anyway
18:15:45 <valhallasw> realistic PBS cannot just be used with existing games, no
18:15:52 <valhallasw> could be used as a patch setting though
18:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's what i was saying... it should be toggleable
18:16:22 <svip> Eddi|zuHause3 is always so wise.
18:16:24 <Noldo> where did Hacky find the space for the pbs signal ?
18:16:46 <svip> :/ Noldo can't see sarcasm when it hits him in the face.
18:17:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> Noldo: there was once an additional map bit available, but afaik that has been occupied by newstations since
18:17:44 <Tekky> yes, I have already decided that there should be two kinds of single signals: 1. single signals with the current OpenTTD graphics 2. single signals with a one-way sign on the other side.
18:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> but that was a different kind of map bit... might not be related
18:18:53 <Noldo> hmm, could we reuse the pre-signal space with not too much work
18:18:59 <DaleStan> Tekky: Why should I not pack trains into this a junction when the trains don't have a choice of which exit they take?
18:19:33 <MrBrrr> Should everything be toggleable?
18:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> Tekky: there was the idea of upgrading from tile-based signals to edge-based signals at the same time as introducing PBS, have you considered that?
18:20:42 <Noldo> I would like edge-based signals very much
18:20:56 <Tekky> Noldo: In your message " but if you just treat exit signals as normal rail won't that make the train reserve track to the next signal on the way", what do you mean with exit signals? Signals after an intersection in general, or specifically exit signals in a pre- and exit signal setup?
18:21:18 <Noldo> specifically exit signals
18:21:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> Noldo: he said treat exit signals like normal signals, not normal rail
18:23:15 <Tekky> DaleStan: I don't understand what you mean when you talk about "packing" trains into junctions?
18:24:31 <DaleStan> You say that "trains should never wait in junctions". I say that when the train has exactly one choice of path through the junction, it should enter the junction anyway.
18:24:55 <DaleStan> That is, regardless of whether its desired exit is free.
18:26:16 <Noldo> in tekky's system that would mean it will crash with something
18:26:37 <eggburt> if it enters then it could block something else :o
18:26:38 <MrBrrr> In any sensible system it would mean crashes x_x
18:26:59 <Tekky> Eddi: Well, I don't think that is very important for my PBS system to whether signals are in the middle or on the edges of tiles. The main reason for signals being on the edges of tiles is that it would allow more efficient track layouts with the current (non-PBS) signalling system.
18:27:35 <Tekky> sorry, correction, I had a word too much:
18:27:51 <Tekky> Eddi: Well, I don't think that is very important for my PBS system whether signals are in the middle or on the edges of tiles. The main reason for signals being on the edges of tiles is that it would allow more efficient track layouts with the current (non-PBS) signalling system.
18:27:59 <DaleStan> <Noldo> in tekky's system that would mean it will crash with something< -- which is why I want signals on both sides of my junctions.
18:28:25 <Noldo> DaleStan: but it's a completely different paradigm
18:29:30 <Noldo> in tekky's system you put signals only in places that trains can safely wait
18:29:40 <DaleStan> But the train can safely wait there.
18:29:47 <blathijs> Tekky: I think that you should not worry too much about how to handle presignals with PBS
18:30:21 <blathijs> Tekky: In particular, I think you need to implement this without removing the old signalling style
18:30:27 <Noldo> DaleStan: you need to draw a picture now
18:30:32 <Tekky> DaleStan: How do you define a junction? Is a track split a junction?
18:30:59 <blathijs> Tekky: But I also think that in any given game, either one of the signalling styles should be used
18:31:05 <blathijs> not both at the same time
18:31:17 <blathijs> So either all signals are old style or all signals are pbs
18:31:27 <blathijs> perhaps that could be a per-player setting, though
18:31:46 <DaleStan> It's a dual-track load balancer, plus a split and a depot.
18:32:00 <Tekky> With a track split or a track merge, there is no need to prevent a train waiting on top of the switch. However, if there are multiple entry tracks and multiple exit tracks (which I call a junction), then no trains should wait in the intersection area, I think.
18:34:35 <Noldo> DaleStan: ok, now I get it, yes trains can safely wait in a track merge with just one exit
18:34:43 <DaleStan> There are two entrances, three exits, and a depot. But no train may have a choice. The paths are selected to be non-conflicting.
18:36:09 <blathijs> What do you mean by "no train may have a choice" ?
18:36:29 <blathijs> Every exit leads somewhere else, so every train will pick exactly one exit
18:37:00 <Tekky> The old OpenTTD PBS implementation uses block signalling and only inside PBS blocks it uses path-based signalling. However, I plan to get rid of block signalling altogether and only use path-based signalling. Therefore, all signals in my system will be PBS signals and not block signals. However, I could try to make existing track layouts work, despite them being based on block signals and
18:37:29 <DaleStan> Approximately. Two of the exits lead the same place, but no train passing through may switch tracks unless a train is exiting the depot.
18:38:04 <blathijs> Tekky: I think you will not get away with completely replacing the block signalling code by path signalling code
18:38:38 <DaleStan> Beyond that, the entrance location and the current order specify exactly one valid path through the junction.
18:38:58 <blathijs> Tekky: IOW, when you start a game, you should select either path based or block based signalling
18:39:33 <DaleStan> And as soon as I find my users password, I'll post a shot of the junction.
18:39:54 <blathijs> Tekky: So, you would only need to have some kind of converting tool, which tries to convert an existing block based game to a path based game (but that is a one shot conversion)
18:40:24 <blathijs> DaleStan: I don't think the signalling should or can take into account such things (basing itself on orders)
18:40:58 <DaleStan> Oh, so trains should just go somewhere randomly?
18:41:17 <Noldo> DaleStan: I know what you mean
18:41:45 <Tekky> blathijs: I think that it will not do any harm to upgrade standard block signals to PBS signals, provided that single signals continue to be considered one-way in my system (i.e. a no-entry sign is put on the other side). The only problem I see is that I must also implement pre- and exit PBS signals for all existing track layouts to work.
18:42:13 <Noldo> DaleStan: but it can be built so that it's actually just two different 2 to 1 merges
18:42:14 <DaleStan> Trains have a target. That target is specified by the order. Therefore, the pathfinding, and, for PBS, the signalling, must obey the orders.
18:42:34 <DaleStan> Noldo: Not without using space I don't have.
18:43:29 <Noldo> DaleStan: show the picture
18:44:58 <Tekky> blathijs: No, there should be no need for a conversion tool. A single signal will just look different when my patch is active (it will have a no-entry sign on the other side). However, the binary representation (mapbits or whatever) will be the same in my patch. However, I will need a few additional mapbits.
18:45:36 <Tekky> I will need an additional mapbit in order to store whether a single signal is one or two way.
18:48:06 <DaleStan> The meaning of the purple dot, for most purposes, is that trains may not go under the bridge unless they entered from the north entrance.
18:48:16 <Noldo> DaleStan: a train coming from the depot going to the right track can't safely wait without blocking the other track
18:48:39 <Noldo> but the left track is ok to wait
18:49:01 <DaleStan> That can't happen. Trains out of the depot are prevented from going under the bridge.
18:49:11 <blathijs> Tekky: So, you want to support block based and path based signalling in the same game?
18:49:36 <DaleStan> See the purple dot? That says means the signal is restricted.
18:50:10 <DaleStan> The restriction is, in part, "trains from the depot may not pass this signal".
18:52:12 <Tekky> blathijs: I plan to support current OpenTTD track configurations, however, they will be using path-based signalling instead of block signalling.
18:52:43 <DaleStan> Or, more accurately, "The pathfinder cannot find a path from the depot past this signal". If a train ended up there anyway, it would still pass.
18:52:55 <Bjarni> <svip> Did you not miss me? <--- no we didn't
18:52:55 <Tekky> blathijs: The signals will be the same, however, internally, they will work completely differently.
18:53:04 <Prof_Frink> svip: Is half of your face gone?
18:53:26 <Prof_Frink> Then yes, I missed you
18:53:43 <TrueBrain> svip: you get one free ticket to kick someone at your choice :p
18:53:45 <svip> To make your answer more confusing!
18:53:59 <svip> All people are lovable in here.
18:54:14 <svip> He has that Danish mystic about him.
18:54:18 <blathijs> Tekky: So the signals will look the same, but they will have (slightly) different semantics
18:54:32 <Bjarni> looks like svip is gay
18:54:59 <Tekky> blathijs: I will not mix block- and path-based signalling, because they are not very compatible. I only plan to make existing signal layouts work as path-based signals.
18:55:16 <Bjarni> what's so special about Estonians?
18:55:21 <Noldo> TrueBrain: I woudn't mind terribly if by some accident you happened to say something usefull about FS1149
18:55:25 <TrueBrain> redmonkey: we can read in #openttd.notice, no need to say it here
18:55:27 <blathijs> Tekky: I think you also plan to fully support block signalling, ie don't enable PBS at all?
18:55:40 <TrueBrain> Noldo: won't happen in this month
18:55:56 <blathijs> Tekky: If you're not going to mix them, I would propose a onetime conversion when PBS is enabled
18:56:21 <blathijs> Tekky: AFAICS, presignals completely lose their value with path based signalling
18:56:32 <Tekky> blathijs: Yes, the signals will look the same, except that signal signals will get a one-way sign on the other side with my patch, by default. This one-way sign can be removed then to allow bi-directional traffic.
18:56:46 <blathijs> so, when PBS is enabled, you should convert them to some comparable layout of normal signals with PBS
18:57:14 <Tekky> blathijs: Yes, presignals will be redundant to a large extent when PBS signals exist, except for special things like priority lines.
18:57:21 <Bjarni> Tekky: do you have a written "plot" for your PBS plans?
18:57:37 <Bjarni> like what should the signals be able to do and how should they do it
18:58:55 <blathijs> Tekky: I would propose to reuse the presignal bit combinations when PBS is enabled, so you won't need an extra bit
18:59:05 <Tekky> yes, however, in that wiki article, I mainly talk about bi-directional double track. But this requires "weak" reservations and "unsafe" signals, which I don't plan to support in my first PBS release.
18:59:16 <blathijs> but, I'm really off to watch a movie now, but I'll read back later tonight :-)
18:59:31 <TrueBrain> have fun blathijs :)
18:59:51 <TrueBrain> I watch moving while waiting for gf, while IRCing...
19:00:38 <Noldo> moving as in moving picture
19:00:45 <svip> How about a new disaster in the game? POWER CUT.
19:00:57 <Bjarni> I tried that in real life
19:01:00 <svip> o_o All your trains that run on electricity fail.
19:01:14 <Bjarni> svip: inspired by DSB?
19:01:25 <svip> But eggburt also suggested it.
19:01:31 <Bjarni> well, it was actually BaneDanmark, who screwed up yesterday
19:01:46 <svip> o_o Did you hear about the stuff at Nørrebro?
19:01:47 <Bjarni> maybe not screwed up, but became really unlucky
19:02:02 <svip> I don't know how it works in English.
19:02:26 <svip> My brother says it was worse than last time.
19:02:27 <Bjarni> as usual with those people
19:02:35 <mcbane> could it be that internet refresh dont work?
19:02:47 <MrBrrr> Well, how about needing a supplied Power Station for electrified rails to work?
19:02:55 <mcbane> i created a server and my friend dont find ti
19:03:02 <svip> Would make sense, MrBrrr.
19:03:15 <Bjarni> mcbane: did you advertise it?
19:03:21 <MrBrrr> Well, since someone's suggestin :)
19:03:33 <svip> Well, with an IP or domain name?
19:03:34 <Bjarni> mcbane: try to make your friend join your IP
19:03:50 <svip> o_O Oh that kind of server.
19:03:55 <mcbane> i used internet (dvertise)
19:04:07 <Bjarni> <svip> My brother says it was worse than last time. <--- I hate to ask, but.... why was your brother present at a riot?
19:04:20 <svip> He was at his girlfriend's birthday party.
19:04:26 <svip> And she lives just were it was worse.
19:04:40 <svip> So he wasn't in the riot.
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19:05:17 <Bjarni> about not being allowed to take over a building owned by somebody else
19:05:23 *** MarkSlap has joined #openttd
19:05:50 <Bjarni> they tried to burn down the city again last night
19:06:10 <MrBrrr> The entire city? Oh dear.
19:06:18 <svip> I thought they were celebrating the Copenhagen Bombing.
19:06:38 <svip> You know about the Copenhagen Bombings?
19:07:14 <svip> Bjarni: I thought other people didn't care about us!
19:07:16 <Bjarni> <MrBrrr> The entire city? Oh dear. <--- well, maybe not the entire city, but they started more than 20 fires
19:07:36 <Bjarni> svip: well... he is Canadian... they are always different
19:07:41 <MrBrrr> And that means what svip?
19:07:59 <Bjarni> it means that US citizens never realise what happens here
19:08:12 <MrBrrr> Canadians are not americans, geez :P
19:08:25 <Bjarni> that's what I just said :)
19:08:28 <svip> I know you have geography in school.
19:08:33 <Bjarni> Canadians are different
19:08:35 <MrBrrr> When your neighbor is like a frat party gone wrong, you look elsewhere :)
19:08:40 <svip> But do you have to care about us Danes?
19:08:52 <svip> Why is your English not Canadian English?
19:09:01 <svip> You are not Canadian! >:O I knew it!
19:09:06 <Bjarni> Canada is trying to steal our island so they have to story their enemy :P
19:09:21 <svip> But MrBrrr's cover has been blown.
19:09:25 <svip> He is obviously an American.
19:09:34 <MrBrrr> My word... Conspiracy theorists hard at work :P
19:09:46 <svip> I saw him using American English.
19:09:47 <peter1138> Well, Canada is in (North) America
19:10:05 <svip> You know what I mean, Peter Paul Mary.
19:10:12 <MrBrrr> Kanada sounds nicer anyway.
19:10:17 <Bjarni> American English is still corrupted English and should still be avoided
19:10:24 <svip> It is not Kanada in Danish any more. :(
19:10:45 <svip> It is still Kanada in Estonian.
19:10:55 <svip> Just as Denmark is called Taani in Estonian.
19:10:58 <Bjarni> what is it with you and Estonia?
19:11:09 <svip> I might know in half a year.
19:11:19 <svip> :O I am going to Estonia this Christmas.
19:11:48 <MrBrrr> How are females in Estonia?
19:11:59 <Bjarni> sounds like James Bond.... travelling to former USSR to meet a woman
19:12:02 <svip> o_o Dunno, but they claim to be better than the Swedish.
19:12:11 <svip> It is not Estonia SSR any more.
19:12:35 <svip> But just like you don't talk to Tekky about the war.
19:12:49 <Prof_Frink> The name's Ip. Sv Ip.
19:13:17 <svip> That's why I am going to be more knowledgeable
19:13:25 * Bjarni wonders why svip fails to find a Danish woman
19:13:31 <Bjarni> there are plenty of them
19:13:39 <svip> But they speak Danish too.
19:14:04 <svip> It is more exotic being Estonian.
19:14:09 <Bjarni> you make it sound like it's bad to be able to speak Danish o_O
19:14:16 <MrBrrr> I'll be waiting to be briefed when you get back.
19:14:21 <svip> It's just that... then they understand me.
19:14:31 <Bjarni> MrBrrr: don't hold your breath
19:14:32 <peter1138> BEER BEER BEER, we're going for a bee-eer
19:14:43 <svip> As it is only after Christmas.
19:15:02 <Prof_Frink> peter1138! newbeers!
19:15:19 <svip> Why isn't there beer in OpenTTD?
19:15:31 <Bjarni> <svip> It's just that... then they understand me. <--- you mean you talk garbage to females?
19:15:39 <peter1138> There is with certain NewGRFs
19:15:45 <svip> No, that doesn't make it interesting, Bjarni.
19:15:54 <svip> :( Will you stop teasing me?
19:16:28 <Bjarni> I really don't get why it should be so interesting to go that far to meet women with a language barrier :s
19:17:04 <svip> Have you created your own artificial language, PERHAPS?
19:17:11 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: He told her he was a cunning linguist.
19:18:03 <svip> I told her I was an amateur linguist.
19:18:10 <Bjarni> svip: do you always lie?
19:18:15 <svip> And besides, she is studying finno-uric languages at the University of Tartu.
19:18:16 <Prof_Frink> ...But that doesn't make the joke.
19:19:06 <svip> That is a stupid question, Bjarni.
19:19:24 <svip> Cause I can only answer "no".
19:19:28 <svip> And that won't tell you anything.
19:19:33 <Bjarni> svip: you were supposed to say no, which would be a useless answer :/
19:19:56 <svip> Great Danes think alike.
19:20:02 <svip> And not talking about the dogs.
19:20:12 <svip> Anyone who laughs is a communist.
19:20:43 <Bjarni> looks like Prof_Frink is a communist :/
19:20:51 <Prof_Frink> svip: Fools seldom differ.
19:21:00 <svip> Prof_Frink has a point though.
19:21:09 <svip> And it is also a problem if great minds think alike.
19:21:17 <svip> Cause then they don't come up with good ideas.
19:21:35 <Bjarni> I don't think 100% like you
19:21:51 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: s/think 100% //
19:22:38 <Bjarni> it would be really odd if you think just like me
19:22:55 <svip> Especially since you aren't going to Estonia.
19:23:15 <Bjarni> that's a very good example of how we differ
19:23:27 <Bjarni> I still don't get why you are into that Estonia trip
19:23:56 <svip> I was in Canada, France and the Netherlands this summer as well.
19:24:00 <Bjarni> maybe you are going to buy and import a future wife or something
19:24:09 <Bjarni> or maybe she thinks so
19:24:28 <svip> A man can dream though, a man can dream.
19:25:03 <Bjarni> such marriages are usually investigated by the mafia and that's no fun
19:25:16 <svip> You've got to be kidding me.
19:25:22 <svip> There are only 1.3 million Estonians.
19:25:59 <Bjarni> it takes less than 50 people to create a really nasty mafia
19:26:51 <svip> I didn't read that you said "buy and import".
19:27:14 <Bjarni> well, the fact is that they find people from the Baltic countries, who moved to the west and blackmail them to get money from the west or something nasty will happen to the family left behind
19:27:19 <Bjarni> it happened several times
19:28:06 <mcbane> i was in sweden and norway this year =P
19:28:26 <Bjarni> must have been hard on you
19:29:23 <Bjarni> well, there is one good thing about Sweden compared to Denmark
19:29:29 <Bjarni> they have a better view
19:30:25 <Bjarni> anyway what were you doing there?
19:31:13 <mcbane> why do they have a better view? on what
19:31:38 <Bjarni> whenever I look at the water, Sweden is on the other side
19:31:49 <Bjarni> go figure out the rest
19:33:37 <Bjarni> but it's not entirely a joke
19:34:52 <Bjarni> take the ferry between Sweden and Denmark. On the Swedish side, it's full of big tanks (fuel?/chemical plant or something) and on the Danish side, we have Kronborg and a town with a waterside front with buildings dating back 2-300 years
19:35:06 <Bjarni> that's 200-300, not 2 years to 300 years ;)
19:35:55 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: The latter is also true
19:39:48 <MarkSlap> Hmm, why can't I remove some streets in a town when I'm "Exellent"?
19:40:25 <MarkSlap> Bjarni, that's a Danish site :p
19:40:33 <peter1138> You can only remove end pieces
19:40:49 <MarkSlap> And there is'nt any snow here now ^^
19:41:03 <MarkSlap> Is it a new "function"?
19:41:17 <thingwath> and there is no railway at all, uh
19:41:24 <peter1138> Not that I'm aware of. There is a patch option to fiddle with.
19:41:33 <Bjarni> <MarkSlap> Bjarni, that's a Danish site :p <-- yes, but if you "step back" (wow, waterwalking) from where the picture is taken, you will end up in Sweden
19:41:51 <Bjarni> odds are that the photo is taken onboard a boat
19:42:02 <MarkSlap> Bjarni, I only read the last sentence
19:42:59 <Bjarni> that's usually not enough to claim a whole point in a conversation as incorrect :P
19:43:20 <Bjarni> or rather, the proof of the point
19:43:22 <MarkSlap> Bjarni, are you Danish?
19:43:43 <svip> Even his ident is Danish.
19:43:50 <Bjarni> not to Swedes, it seems :|
19:43:54 <MarkSlap> Didn't check that :D
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19:44:29 <MarkSlap> I think you're a litlle hard on swedes right now :D
19:44:45 <svip> We are not the ones adding a's to every second word.
19:45:03 <MarkSlap> But I'm tired and sucks a english for the moment
19:45:05 <svip> From the Swedish part of Finland, I presume?
19:45:28 <MarkSlap> I live in Sweden you see
19:45:31 <svip> You just woke up one day and realised you live in Finland?
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19:47:08 <Bjarni> actually I don't think it's a "Swedish talking part" of Finland, more like some people speak Swedish and some speak Finnish and they are mixed (but most likely mainly near Sweden)
19:47:20 <Bjarni> it's not Swedish colonies in Finland
19:47:37 <svip> There is a Swedish part of Finland.
19:47:39 <MarkSlap> My family comes from finland
19:47:48 <svip> Indeed, it is so great that Swedish is a second official language of Finland.
19:47:52 <MarkSlap> And I'm like, a quarter finnish(?)
19:47:57 <svip> And the national anthem has a Swedish version.
19:48:10 <MarkSlap> There is even swedish signs in Helsinki
19:48:19 <Bjarni> [21:44:47] <MarkSlap> And I'm finnish :>
19:48:19 <Bjarni> [21:47:51] <MarkSlap> And I'm like, a quarter finnish(?)
19:48:20 <ln-> and in many other major cities
19:48:24 <svip> MrBrrr and Belugas would inform you that the Canadian anthem has an English and a French version.
19:48:49 <MarkSlap> I think i'm gonna shut up right now
19:49:06 <svip> Finland and Canada aren't at war.
19:49:14 <MrBrrr> How does everyone feel with the loading times?
19:49:21 <ln-> Bjarni: there are certain areas where >50% of people speak swedish.
19:49:29 <MrBrrr> I mean, should I build a 20 square long station for my 20 wagons long train?
19:49:34 <ln-> Bjarni: even areas where 90% of people speak swedish.
19:49:39 <MrBrrr> Seems like an odd sort of thing to do.
19:49:53 <svip> A waggon doesn't fill an entire square, MrBrrr.
19:50:01 <MarkSlap> MrBrrr, 10 square long station = 20 wagons long train
19:50:01 <Bjarni> ln-: is that parts of towns or whole areas?
19:50:21 <MrBrrr> ie: 39 wagons + one engine
19:50:32 <ln-> Bjarni: areas on the coasts.
19:50:39 <MarkSlap> If you don't have a doubletrain
19:50:40 <ln-> consisting of several towns
19:51:19 <MarkSlap> ln-, in land there are'nt many people who speaks finnish
19:51:39 <ln-> bjarni: not really, but take the car and drive 30 km towards the archipelago and it gets a lot more swedish
19:51:54 <MarkSlap> What is a archipelago?
19:52:00 <ln-> MarkSlap: Åland is an exception.
19:52:03 <Bjarni> a lot of small islands
19:52:47 <MarkSlap> Now I'm gonna play again
19:53:42 <ln-> Bjarni: but the especially swedishistic areas are on the western coast, both south and north of Vaasa.
19:53:57 <Bjarni> MrBrrr: the odd part about loading times, train stations and train lengths aren't when you can fit a train in the station (it's perfectly fine if you can). It's more like if you can't
19:54:48 <Bjarni> like it's realistic that it takes many times as long to unload if a passenger train with an engine in both ends sticks the rear engine out of the platform...
19:55:26 <MrBrrr> What's the largest station one can build ? (7 square long?)
19:55:33 <Bjarni> I can tell you this much: in real life, loading times are reduced if you decide to place the engine outside the platform instead of the cars
19:55:53 <Prof_Frink> MrBrrr: As big as station spread allows
19:55:53 <Bjarni> there is no real limit other than the max station spread, which is a patch setting
19:56:39 <Bjarni> set the station spread to 200 (and pray that your computer is fast enough to handle that... it's not likely) and build a single station covering the whole map
19:57:00 <MrBrrr> Well, that would be overdoing it.
19:57:11 <ln-> Bjarni: i ett litet kommun, Närpes, är dialekten så konstig att varken finnar eller svenskar förstår den, och den är närmare till arkaisk norge än svenska, säger några.
19:57:27 <SmatZ> Bjarni: why will it slow down the computer? except the AI
19:57:35 <Bjarni> most likely you will not need more than 51 tiles as no train can be longer than 101 units, or 50,5 tiles
19:58:05 <Bjarni> SmatZ: the bigger the station spread is, the more CPU time it takes to calculate stuff for each station
19:58:37 <SmatZ> Bjarni: when I have big stations and lower station spred to, say, 4, will it be faster?
19:58:57 <Bjarni> SmatZ: and the CPU load increases experientially with the station spread setting
19:59:46 <ln-> Bjarni: btw, if i had said that sentence to you aloud (as opposed to writing), would you have understood a word of it?
20:00:00 <SmatZ> Bjarni: I think there was some problem with AI, that with higher spread it went very slow... so I though that when this was solved, the spred doesn't slow down the game
20:00:47 * Bjarni has more Swedish than Danish TV channels
20:01:01 <ln-> Bjarni: also remember that i don't speak rikssvenska and especially not skåne-style svenska, but this a little different-sounding finlandssvenska.
20:01:04 <Bjarni> it happens that I watch Swedish TV....
20:03:19 <Bjarni> ln-: actually rikssvenska is easier to understand than anything from Skåne (odd, but true). However I guess you speak with a "melody" kind of like Finnish and that wouldn't stop me from understanding it
20:10:42 <peter1138> i've never noticed high station spread to slow anything down
20:11:21 <Bjarni> the text contains a warning against high numbers
20:11:51 <Bjarni> and I think I had a severe slowdown once, but that was likely when I used a computer that was noteworthy slower than everybody else
20:21:40 <svip> Is it possible to get the distance to an industry?
20:21:51 <svip> By knowing where you are and having the industry?
20:23:03 <Bjarni> we have functions to find the distance between two tiles
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20:23:14 <svip> Cause I can't find them in there.
20:23:45 <Bjarni> I can remember HOW they work, but not WHERE they are :/
20:23:55 <svip> Then you must remember their name.
20:25:25 <svip> Alternatively, I can get the X and the Y of both tiles, and then compare them.
20:25:30 <svip> But I'd think a function already did that.
20:26:17 <Bjarni> src/map.h:uint DistanceManhattan(TileIndex, TileIndex); ///< also known as L1-Norm. Is the shortest distance one could go over diagonal tracks (or roads) <--- something like this?
20:26:43 <Bjarni> uint DistanceSquare(TileIndex, TileIndex); ///< euclidian- or L2-Norm squared
20:27:10 <svip> Which of them should I pick?
20:27:33 <Bjarni> Manhattan is build out of square blocks and a lot of parallel roads, so manhattan distance is the distance in manhattan following the roads
20:27:45 <Bjarni> the other one is the direct (fugleflugt) distance
20:28:34 <Bjarni> actually there are 5 different functions depending on what you need the result for
20:29:11 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: miham * r11038 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
20:29:11 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-09-02 22:28:19
20:29:11 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 4 fixed by tucalipe (4)
20:29:11 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 1 fixed by thetitan (1)
20:29:11 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: catalan - 4 fixed by arnaullv (4)
20:29:11 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: croatian - 6 fixed, 563 changed by knovak (569)
20:29:11 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: czech - 4 fixed by Hadez (4)
20:30:12 <svip> Bjarni, how do I fill an array quickly?
20:30:39 <ln-> or what kind of arrays are we talking about
20:30:50 <ln-> and i'm not Bjarni, just for the record.
20:31:08 <svip> Which I want to fill with CT_INVALID
20:32:06 <Rubidium> Tekky: have you thought about trains reversing? When there is no signal at the end of a junction, the train would go back onto the junction without even seeing a red signal.
20:36:16 <Bjarni> svip: memset is the way to go
20:36:59 <Bjarni> you give it a pointer to the first part of the array, the value you want, how many and the size of each block
20:37:13 <Bjarni> for details, do as Rubidium said
20:37:31 <Bjarni> make sure you always set all of them and NEVER TOO MANY
20:37:36 <ln-> Bjarni: no, only how many bytes, not block size.
20:37:54 <Bjarni> the last one is tricky to find if it happens because it will screw up something else
20:38:15 <Bjarni> ln-: it's the same in this case as CargoID is a byte
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20:39:03 <ln-> Bjarni: memset always takes the number of bytes.
20:39:20 <svip> CargoID cargo_list[MAX_CATCHMENT];
20:39:20 <svip> memset(cargo_list, (int)CT_INVALID, MAX_CATCHMENT);
20:40:10 <Bjarni> why do you typecast to int?
20:40:22 <svip> Because it said int in the man page.
20:40:34 <Rubidium> and why do you make a list of size MAX_CATCHMENT?
20:40:47 <Bjarni> wouldn't it be logical to typecast to byte since you are dealing with bytes?
20:41:04 <Bjarni> and that is another good question :)
20:41:05 <ln-> svip: do not typecast that way, you can easily cast anything to anything, even if it doesn't make any sense.
20:42:00 <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11039 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp graph_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#1191]: underflow that caused overflows in the performance rating calculation.
20:44:09 <svip> So I just pick what is closest.
20:44:09 <Rubidium> svip: why MAX_CATCHMENT?
20:44:16 <svip> Cause that is the area I search in.
20:44:34 <peter1138> can you not add it up as you go along?
20:44:34 <Rubidium> MAX_CATCHMENT defines the radius
20:45:08 <Rubidium> furthermore tiles can accept multiple cargo types
20:45:14 <svip> So I put them in the list by their destination to the industry.
20:45:21 <svip> And then afterwards I can pick which is closest.
20:48:30 <Bjarni> svip: actually when I talked about making an overlay of accepted cargo, I was thinking about selecting one cargo type only and then have a bool for each tile to see if I could deliver that particular cargo to the tile in question
20:49:18 <svip> The function can do that as well.
20:49:30 <svip> Indeed, I might remove that it can do them all right now.
20:49:36 <svip> Until I add the options to the GUI.
20:54:04 <mcbane> how to get faction with local authorities?
20:54:21 <mcbane> advertising or house building?
20:55:58 <svip> But only within their area.
20:56:09 <svip> :> And if you had my patch, you could easily see where that was. ;)
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21:20:47 <mcbane> umm what dies the fix of fa#1191 do ? recalculate te right rating of stations and industry?
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21:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> have you considered that not all tiles of the refinery actually accept oil?!?
21:37:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> same with power stations
21:38:55 <redmonkey> hi again. just one question. will the bug FS#1191 be fixed in the next stable version now (0.5.3)?
21:39:52 <glx> Additional comments about closing: In r11039; will be backported. It won't fix the old entries in the graph, but new entries will be correct.
21:40:43 <redmonkey> yea, but what does "backported" means? i'm not into programmer talk :)
21:41:02 <glx> it means it will go in 0.5 branch
21:42:32 <svip> <Eddi|zuHause3> have you considered that not all tiles of the refinery actually accept oil?!? << Huh?
21:42:48 <svip> It's different from tile to tile?
21:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> use the query tool :)
21:43:37 <Rubidium> even considered that one tile does not always make a steel mill accept passengers?
21:44:03 <Rubidium> you need a few tiles in the coverage area for a steel mill to accept passengers
21:44:19 <Rubidium> s/you need/your station needs/
21:45:03 <svip> So I need to get the IndustrySpecTile and not just the IndustrySpec?
21:45:39 <svip> But that requires I get the IndustryGfx.
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21:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, like with houses
21:46:44 <Rubidium> svip: guess how a function would be called if it gets an IndustryGfx?
21:46:56 <glx> there's an accessor for it
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21:48:40 <glx> that should help you to find where it is declared
21:49:50 <svip> How do I found out all Cargos used by the current map type?
21:51:24 <Rubidium> something that would be a gazillion times easier is just using GetAcceptedCargo instead of implementing the same thing again (I think)
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21:55:15 <svip> O_o How make the ac though?
21:55:20 <svip> The AcceptedCargo argument.
21:55:47 <glx> check how it's done in Place_LandInfo
21:57:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> i think it would be more useful to check how it is done in station building, but i don't actually have a clue :)
21:57:56 <glx> well Place_LandInfo is the query tool
21:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, i figured that :)
21:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> but he wants the cargo that gets accepted by the area around the current tile, which is similar to what the station placement code does to show which cargo the station will accept
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22:03:56 <svip> But doesn't that mean I have to run through the entire list of cargo's each time?
22:05:17 <skidd13> svip: yup, have rewritten the whole direction usage in the town growth... so haven't got time ;)
22:06:02 <mcbane> question i have 99% transported but mine dont raise production
22:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> we' s'hould ha've 'a memo'rial mi'nute fo'r al'l t'he abuse'd apostrophe's
22:06:47 <glx> mcbane: random at work :)
22:09:16 <mcbane> i have one kind of mine (for example all same production at start (shouldnt it be random?)) and dont raising output...
22:11:27 <glx> it's all random, but random may look not random
22:12:54 <glx> many values can give the same result as we don't use all bits of the random number to determine what to do
22:17:50 <mcbane> but start values are all same for one type cargo thats changed..
22:20:50 <glx> no I just generated a map, it has 10 coal mine, only 2 have the same production
22:24:03 <svip> Why does it always print the colour of passengers now, glx?
22:25:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> uninitialised variable?
22:26:16 <glx> it stops on the first cargo found
22:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> what is the sense of that for loop anyway?
22:27:17 <svip> It loops through all cargos.
22:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you search for a fixed cargo (e.g. oil), why loop through anything?
22:27:29 <svip> And the ac array contains all cargos the industry accepts.
22:27:47 <svip> Cause I have to loop through it to find it, Eddi|zuHause3. :|
22:27:54 <svip> I used a different method before.
22:28:09 <svip> But then Rubidium said no no no.
22:28:16 <svip> There is a GetAcceptedCargo() function.
22:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> what? the same cargo has always the same index...
22:28:59 <svip> :| But right now it can also look through all cargo.
22:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> so if you search for oil, just check ac[oil]
22:29:12 <svip> Which I will remove when I have added the "pick a cargo" feature.
22:29:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> also, this totally misbehaves if you have less than 8/8 cargo on a tile...
22:31:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have a weird problem, my graphics driver lacks 3D acceleration (which is a problem, but not the weird part)... the weird part is that OTTD now is extremely slow, even though it should only need 2D acceleration
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22:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> and it gets even weirder, it is totally alright, when i start with -b 32bpp-simple
22:34:21 <stillunknown> Eddi|zuHause3: what driver are you using?
22:34:40 <glx> 8bpp->32bpp conversion may be slow
22:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> linux, ati, sdl
22:34:55 <glx> that's why fullscreen sometimes help
22:35:20 <stillunknown> Eddi|zuHause3: What hardware if i may ask?
22:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... Radeon 9700 i think... it was allright previously, but on some recent update it failed to compile the 3D kernel module or something, and it hasn't worked ever since, even with downgrading to previous versions
22:37:25 <ln-> hmm, are there really non-stop flights from London to Sydney?
22:38:17 <glx> it should be possible, depending of plane type
22:38:45 <stillunknown> Eddi|zuHause3: It's possible that most of the 2d acceleration goes through the 2d engine.
22:38:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> the only person i have seen traveling in that direction had stop in singapore
22:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> stillunknown: i never had problems with other programs
22:40:05 <svip> How do I draw a TEXTBTN with a function?
22:40:23 <svip> I basically wants to draw a legend when a user picks a specific zoning.
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22:43:32 <stillunknown> Eddi|zuHause3: There's also the possibility that because of a broken drm, you have reverted to the vesa driver or something alike.
22:43:42 <stillunknown> Which could offer no 2d acceleration at all.
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22:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> stillunknown: i HAVE 2d accelleration everywhere... just not with openttd 8bbp
22:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> and no acceleration would also make 32bpp slow
22:45:50 <MrBrrr> Has anyone ever thought about removing the 180 degree turn a train does when reaching the end of the line?
22:45:50 <stillunknown> Maybe the fallback 2d acceleration is not enough for openttd.
22:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> MrBrrr: lots of people... big problem...
22:46:17 <MrBrrr> What were the big problems?
22:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> the first problem is making a train go backwards, meaning the last wagon has to become engine, and all first pointers need updating, it gets quite messy
22:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> the second problem is not all trains are realistically capable of driving backwards
22:47:49 <MrBrrr> the second problem doesn't seem that problematic, but the first one, eeek.
22:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> the third problem, in order to realistically solve problem #2, you need shunting (separating between engine and wagons) and turntables
22:48:21 <glx> main problem is a train need to have an engine as first "vehicle"
22:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> also problem III. a) in order to switch engines at a terminus station, you need a stash of replacement engines
22:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> which need to rotate through the trains scheduled to the stations
22:51:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> but only a subset of all trains
22:51:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> it creates a huge order mess at best
22:52:21 <MrBrrr> Isn't that solution a bit too much?
22:52:40 <MrBrrr> So far the main problem remains the whole engine as first vehicle :(
22:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, either stupid or realistic, there is no useful version inbetween
22:53:42 <MrBrrr> Well, with the way depots work, realistic is a long way off.
22:53:56 <MrBrrr> Seeing 10 wagons enter that little tile always makes me smile :)
22:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> that is probably easily solveable when you implement #3
22:55:25 <MrBrrr> I'd have to read on turntables.
22:57:23 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause3: hehe, switching engines at the terminii is fun
22:57:29 <Sacro> doing SimSig Kings Cross
22:57:35 <Sacro> you need a few extra locos for trains
22:57:47 <svip> src/zoning.h:32: error: expected primary-expression before '=' token
22:57:52 <svip> I don't even have a "=" token on that line.
22:59:32 <svip> I found out what it was.
22:59:38 <svip> I had defined something as = 7;
22:59:45 <MrBrrr> Question: How much realism should there be in OpenTTD?
22:59:56 <svip> :( I completely forgot how #define worked.
23:00:10 <svip> That's the tax fee as well.
23:02:53 <svip> I create a variable in the header file.
23:03:04 <svip> But yet it says I have undefined references to it.
23:04:47 <svip> zoning_gui.o(.text+0x154): In function `ZoningToolbWndProc(Window*, WindowEvent*)':
23:04:47 <svip> : undefined reference to `_outer_legends'
23:05:01 <svip> VARDEF StringID _outer_legends[ZONING_COLOURS];
23:05:57 <glx> you need to implement it in a cpp file too
23:07:31 <MrBrrr> In RC3, which is the more "realistic", normal acceleration or the "realistic" one? As far as climbing hills and such?
23:07:35 <svip> Can I run memset outside of a function?
23:08:19 <svip> And this function is called over and over again.
23:08:34 <svip> Cause it is the Window function thingie.
23:09:01 <svip> O_O I check if it is good.
23:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> svip: make an initialisation on game startup
23:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> gnah... i play for 10 minutes and already miss PBS :(
23:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> also, the daylength patch was kinda fun... besides of its quirks
23:14:07 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause3: it had no quirks
23:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, it had yearly running costs 3 times the build costs!
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23:15:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> i think it grew way beyond 5 lines before i ever used it :p
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23:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> capacity of single track lines heavily reduces without PBS :/
23:28:05 <svip> How does the last arg in DrawString() work?
23:29:19 <svip> But it doesn't seem to give me the *right* colours.
23:30:28 <svip> And why does it give some sort of shadow?
23:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's probably one of the named colours
23:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> blue, red, etc.
23:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> like in the company colour selection
23:31:29 <svip> But I thought that palette image in the docs is the same as the colours there.
23:32:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> looked in docs/ottd-colourtext-palette.png?
23:32:26 <svip> That's what I just told you.
23:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> and what exactly is wrong then?
23:36:52 <svip> Also, I'm going to bed in a jeffy.
23:37:07 <svip> The Bad and Dunno is okay.
23:37:18 <svip> But there should be a Good text between Dunno and Bad in Light Blue.
23:37:26 <svip> And the Can't Build should be red.
23:38:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> and the line that calls this stuff?
23:39:12 <svip> DrawString(4+(i*35), 31, _outer_legends[i], GetColourByPosition(i));
23:39:31 <svip> Well... I am not pleased with that either.
23:40:02 <glx> _outer_legend is only used there?
23:40:16 <svip> But that is for the stuff below.
23:40:21 <svip> The call looks very similar.
23:40:33 <svip> Well... _outer_legends is used one place else.
23:40:41 <svip> ChangeZoningLegend(_zoning.outer, _outer_legends);
23:40:47 <svip> Namely the function the gives them their names.
23:41:02 <glx> anyway that's not the problem :)
23:41:14 <svip> Cause it worked when all word was black.
23:41:32 <glx> what is the code in GetColourByPosition?
23:43:43 <svip> O_o There are only 16 colours?
23:44:06 <svip> And what about the other colours?
23:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> only the ones listed in the ottd-colourtext-palette.png are available for text
23:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> and they have the indices printed in front of them
23:45:05 <svip> But he just said there is only 16 colours.
23:45:10 <svip> And that image lists 255 colours.
23:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, it's a different picture!!
23:46:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> also look in gfx.h around line 290
23:46:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> although that order seems different...
23:47:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> and of course it is uncommented...
23:50:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> PS: the drawing on sloped road is weird
23:50:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> either do all roads, or none
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23:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can still build tram on sloped road
23:51:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> or make roads a different colour...
23:51:33 <glx> you can use any color with IS_PALETTE_COLOR
23:53:32 <glx> funny values in the enum in gfx.h are never used it seems
23:54:30 <glx> Eddi|zuHause3: and you're right, order is broken
23:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> they may mean something completely different...
23:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> possibly connected to this ominous "_colour_gradient" directly below
continue to next day ⏵
