IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-08-16
⏴ go to previous day
00:01:47 <Bjarni> we have a saying about problems that you should "sleep on it", meaning that the brain will solve the issue while you sleep and the next day you have the solution... maybe he is doing something like that
00:01:55 <Bjarni> and even coding in his sleep
00:09:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: richk * r10915 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/table/files.h: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: Recalculated MD5 of airports.grf to eliminate warning.
00:15:05 *** krushia has joined #openttd
00:15:53 <krushia> is there any way to play mukltiplayer against AI players?
00:19:15 <krushia> i searched the wiki and the forums and can't find an answer
00:23:30 <Tobin> Bjarni: Does sound interesting actually...
00:23:41 <Tobin> Bjarni: But I'm on holiday now. :P
00:24:07 <Tobin> If it's still unsolved on Monday I might take a look.
00:54:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
00:58:19 <krushia> alright, i got it working. i guess the only way to have AI in multiplayer is to use the "new AI"?
01:05:44 *** Lost-Hope|Thardas has quit IRC
01:31:00 *** Eddi|zuHause3 has joined #openttd
02:46:46 *** manveru has joined #openttd
02:49:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: richk * r10916 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (3 files in 3 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Feature: Added Helidepot to HELI class in airportsextended.grf.
02:54:42 <manveru> sorry, but how do i start openttd?
02:54:57 <manveru> i use 'openttd sample.cat'
02:55:17 <manveru> but somehow the options it gives me won't have any effect
02:55:30 <manveru> this is on linux, i'm in the directory sample.cat is in
02:57:16 <manveru> ah, i think i found it
02:58:56 <manveru> ok, copying the right files to the data directory worked :)
03:08:42 <manveru> starting in the year 1500 isn't such a good idea... :P
03:27:08 *** SERVEPRO has joined #openttd
03:49:21 *** Progman has joined #openttd
03:50:36 *** Diabolic-Angel has quit IRC
04:29:51 *** ThePizzaKing has joined #openttd
07:10:18 *** Maedhros has joined #openttd
07:13:49 *** Smoovious has joined #openttd
08:15:09 *** marc-andre has joined #openttd
08:17:20 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
08:20:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10917 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/newgrf_config.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: if you force NewGRFs to be always loaded, make sure it still forces the NewGRF to be loaded when it is marked as "init only".
08:21:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10918 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/newgrf.cpp: [NewGRF_ports] -Fix: do not mark NewGRF properties as "unknown"/"unhandled" when you have handled them correctly during load.
08:22:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10919 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/station.h: [NewGRF_ports] -Codechange: use the dummy airport from the NewGRF instead of the hardcoded one.
08:24:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10920 /branches/NewGRF_ports/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): [NewGRF_ports] -Cleanup: remove the tables/files that were used to define airports as they will all be defined in a NewGRF and we do not need them anymore.
08:56:01 <Ammler> good morning, I liked to "clean up" my ottd installs, (used symlinks etc) and moved all my newgrfs and the original data files to /usr/share/openttd/data, now openttd doesn't start anymore. Do I have to do something else?
08:58:33 <peter1138> is it not /usr/share/games/openttd/data ?
08:58:46 <peter1138> just guessing, it's /usr/local/share/games/openttd/data for me
08:59:02 <Ammler> hmm, read something else in forum, but I try it
09:02:33 <peter1138> well, -d misc=4 will show you
09:04:47 <Ammler> dbg: [misc] /home/marcel/.openttd/ found as personal directory
09:04:47 <peter1138> maybe that only shows it if the path exists though, i dunno
09:05:03 <Ammler> does that mean, that it uses only that?
09:05:16 <peter1138> no, it uses all the search paths
09:05:24 <peter1138> the personal directory is where things are saved
09:05:40 <Ammler> dbg: [misc] /usr/local/share/games/openttd/ added as search path <--- local
09:09:10 *** Progman has joined #openttd
09:24:44 <Ammler> that the personal directory is a hidden one, is a little bit strange, isn't?
09:25:13 <Ammler> usually you don't need hidden directories offen, only if you like to change configs.
09:25:52 <Ammler> but .openttd would be needed more because you have saves, screenshots etc. in it, workaround is a symlink
09:26:13 <Rubidium> Ammler: you can configure it at configure time
09:26:15 <Ammler> and I thought, I can get rid of them
09:27:32 <Ammler> Rubidium: for me, its not a problem, but I think also of our "visitors" at #openttdcoop
09:28:02 <Ammler> I guess, in windows, its not hidden?
09:29:43 <Rubidium> it's where it should be according to the guidelines set for the different OSes
09:37:45 *** XeryusTC has joined #openttd
10:11:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10921 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#1130] (r10323): the company related news messages still thought that companies were described by two parameters instead of one.
10:19:01 *** Wezz6400 has joined #openttd
10:20:42 *** Farden123 has joined #openttd
10:27:18 *** Farden123 is now known as Farden
11:00:31 *** Nameeater has joined #openttd
12:01:41 *** Dark_Link^sleep is now known as Dark_Link^
13:08:50 *** BobingAbout has joined #openttd
13:13:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10922 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp:
13:13:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Allow building and removing tracks and signals when there is a
13:13:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: train on a parallel diagonal track that doesn't interact with this one. (frosch)
13:13:50 <Ammler> the bridge is from the orange company, the land is bought from blue
13:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> \o/ great feature! :)
13:18:39 <SmatZ> yes, nice work Maedhros
13:19:37 <SmatZ> hmmm nice work frosch :)
13:21:04 <Maedhros> yeah, i can't really take any credit for it at all :)
13:35:31 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
13:55:59 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
14:22:28 *** Progman has joined #openttd
14:31:15 <glx> Ammler: your "problem" is only visual I think
14:32:02 <Ammler> glx, you mean the bridge over a foreign company?
14:32:44 <Ammler> hmm, I meant the possibilty to build something over others land
14:33:14 <Ammler> the other isn't able to expand his airport, (that's for he bought the land)
14:33:32 <Maedhros> it's explicitly allowed, at the moment
14:34:37 <Ammler> should be possible to forbid it, shouldn't?
14:35:01 <Ammler> or then it should be possible to build under bridges
14:35:12 <glx> Ammler: what if the planed construction is just a track or a road?
14:35:37 <Maedhros> you can build under bridges. just not airports :p
14:36:17 <Ammler> but I guess, its the most used reason for buying land
14:37:33 <Ammler> so it should at least be setable over [patches]
14:37:57 <glx> many people already buy land to just annoy others
14:38:20 <glx> this case is just the opposite :)
14:39:30 <Ammler> glx, thats an other thing and not the resbonsibilty of devs
14:40:09 <Ammler> but hey I don't think, someone can build a brdige over my land without asking me
14:42:01 <Ammler> else you have just to reserve your land with building pseudo bridges, is that the want of devs?
14:42:29 <Ammler> you can remove the buy land, its useless so
14:44:18 <Belugas> so you're suggesting that the construction of a bridge cannot be permitted over bough land, but can be done over rails/roads that are owned by opponents?
14:45:47 <Ammler> you can still build a tunnel under bought land
14:46:15 <Ammler> or maybe the possibilty to build stations etc. under bridges
14:46:44 <Ammler> but that will be difficulty for the grfs, I guess
14:46:47 <hylje> stations under bridges! newbridgeheads!
14:47:50 <hylje> arbitrary stuff on bridgeheads
14:49:30 <hylje> but for now i'm cool with just bridgeheads like that
14:49:52 <Ammler> yes, looks nice, like enhanced tunnels
14:50:15 <Belugas> did i ever said the I hate the expression "Real Life"?
14:50:48 <Ammler> that's why I wrote something else
14:50:57 <SmatZ> Belugas: and 'in real world'?
14:51:38 <Ammler> Belugas: I agree with TTD hasn't to be like RL/RW
14:52:41 <hylje> but arbitrary limitations should be considered fixable over time
14:53:05 <Belugas> unfortunately, it is one of the mostly used argument in any discussion about features...
14:53:49 <Maedhros> going up one level, too
14:54:42 <Belugas> that would be nifty indeed :)
14:55:29 <SmatZ> :-) I though about that feature, but that would need a lot of code change... I think :-) The idea I had was to make one more Pool with tunnels - idea was to make TTD not slowed-down, not consuming a lot of memory (like 3D map array)
14:55:53 <hylje> i think expandable map has been considered
14:56:04 <hylje> ie. "teleports" to arbitrary map extension points
14:56:17 <hylje> for arbitrary shaped bridge platforms and tunnels
14:56:19 <Belugas> where is the "english" button/flag ?
14:56:28 <Ammler> since trams, we played much with RV's, found out that tunnels are "good" overtaking parts for faster RV's
14:56:41 <SmatZ> hylje: yes, this way I though
14:58:32 <hylje> it needs a neat design and someone to hac-- implement it
14:59:04 <Ammler> Belugas: just images...
14:59:43 <Maedhros> magic tunnels would probably be a lot easier than bridges
14:59:54 *** skidd13 has joined #openttd
15:00:07 <Maedhros> all you have to do with tunnels is tell the train where to come out, in which direction, and how long it should take
15:00:35 <hylje> so.. diagonal tunnels pls?
15:00:39 <Maedhros> whereas with bridges it has to be visible all the way, and actually follow the track
15:01:41 <Ammler> so tunnels are already teleporters
15:01:49 <Maedhros> so are bridges, technically
15:02:07 <hylje> bridges just pretend they have the train on them
15:02:21 <Belugas> the problem with tunnels will be how to viusually set the exit tile, i think
15:02:46 <hylje> the same way autorail decides which way the rail piece goes
15:02:57 <hylje> its much easier given just three potential directions
15:03:24 <Belugas> you just miss the elevation part
15:03:46 <hylje> elevation is tricky with magic
15:04:10 <hylje> i'd say one shouldnt do it before magic-removal bridges and tunnels
15:05:08 <Rubidium> and when you remove the magic, you can add signals in tunnels and bridge too (or even stations)
15:07:30 *** Frostregen_ has joined #openttd
15:07:32 * Belugas has an idea he would like to test
15:07:52 <SmatZ> isn't all of this possible in Locomotion?
15:08:27 <Belugas> maybe, don't know. so?
15:09:15 <SmatZ> maybe there could start some project 'openlocomotion', with all these features already done
15:10:13 <hylje> of implementing newGRF on a stackless python-based ttd-like app
15:10:31 <hylje> actually, that'd be quite doable too
15:12:17 <Ammler> before It's getting forgotten: Is the "Bug" with building over bought land already in the tracker?
15:12:46 <hylje> you can add it yourself
15:12:56 <Belugas> **IF** **EVER** diagonal tunnel, it will require diagonal tunnel entrance sprites
15:13:02 *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
15:13:22 <Belugas> current ones are not good for this purpose
15:13:41 <Ammler> hylje: so, I'm the first who found it :)
15:14:03 <Belugas> further more, the current way of building tunnels would have to be changed, like click here for entrance and clicke there for exit, or something like that
15:14:07 <SmatZ> diagonal road would be nice too
15:14:23 <Belugas> forget it, not enough room on the map for now
15:14:24 <hylje> SmatZ: mostly a sprite issue
15:14:42 <Belugas> and hat too yes, but mostly, the room
15:15:00 <SmatZ> hylje: I am not sure about free map bits and road/rail crossings
15:16:07 *** Deathmaker has joined #openttd
15:16:26 *** Wolf01 is now known as Wolf01|AWAY
15:16:43 <Ammler> hmm, how does jabber function with flyspray?
15:16:55 <hylje> just out of curiosity, how bolted-in are any newgrf engines?
15:19:13 <Ammler> oh, Maedhros removed the "complete" from the diagonal crossing. :)
15:19:46 <hylje> if i ever get time for designing and building a truly Free ttd clone, i could use a common newgrf thing
15:55:37 <Rubidium> hylje: only you can't implement NewGRF as it wouldn't be truly free
15:57:16 <Rubidium> the "default" values are not truly free (I think)
15:57:34 <Rubidium> they are part of TTD
15:59:22 <hylje> default values in what sense?
16:00:13 <DaleStan> Like the default values for vehicle property 0. But most default values are not part of TTD.
16:00:14 <Rubidium> a newgrf does change the default values, i.e. I can make a newgrf that only changes the speed of vehicles but doesn't change anything else
16:01:21 <hylje> then newgrf needs a subset that does not involve default values? :p
16:02:07 <Belugas> it is in the essence of newgrf to work that way
16:02:26 <Belugas> you would be better off with a new system of your own...
16:03:07 <hylje> something that is quite human readable!
16:03:30 <Belugas> are you saying that DaleStan is not human ? ;)
16:03:56 <hylje> but its not like i could get started in that project anytime soon
16:04:17 <hylje> however not all is lost, maybe in a few years i could use my leet skills for that :)
16:04:18 <Rubidium> you must make it completely XML as people do want that and you can do anything with XML...
16:04:54 <hylje> XML problems are solved like violence, by more of it
16:05:32 <Belugas> and if it's not XML, it's LUA or god knows waht else...
16:05:33 <Rubidium> <sprite width="1" height="1"><pixel red="255" blue="255" green="0" alpha="128" /></sprite>
16:05:44 <Rubidium> see, completely XML ;)
16:05:54 <Rubidium> completely human readable
16:06:05 <hylje> human-readable images, hweh
16:06:05 * manveru prays that this won't happen
16:08:13 <Rubidium> better use blender directly ;)
16:08:56 <hylje> but i'd think my design would aim for somewhat playable
16:10:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
16:11:36 <hylje> i think distributed computing could be involved too
16:11:53 <hylje> trains would run in just one box in a network game
16:12:03 <Belugas> and multithreading too, don't forget that...
16:12:11 <hylje> stackless is mini-multithreading
16:12:19 <hylje> trains would essentially get their own microthread
16:12:20 <manveru> hmm, ttd in erlang :)
16:12:23 <Belugas> and why not savegame in XML too ;)
16:12:40 <hylje> but it doesnt scale on multiple processors as it is
16:12:49 <hylje> but it can spawn multiple "servers" on a single box
16:13:02 <hylje> which would quite seamlessly work together
16:15:21 <Rubidium> by the way, what's stackless?
16:15:56 <Rubidium> I don't eat pythons ;)
16:16:07 <hylje> but you can lick one though
16:17:11 <Maedhros> is that still maintained? i thought it had been abandoned a while ago
16:18:04 <hylje> and got commercial usage mostly by CCP of eve online
16:18:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: glx * r10923 /trunk/src/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: use 'real' exception handling in saveload code
16:20:14 *** NW|Aerandir has joined #openttd
16:39:26 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
17:08:51 * Maedhros hadn't seen that bug
17:09:15 <Maedhros> anyway, the generic tram set has arvs
17:09:22 *** Digitalfox has joined #openttd
17:16:50 <Ammler> Belugas, did you ever see Cargo Trams in RL :P
17:17:40 <Maedhros> one of them is actually called the CarGo tram :p
17:18:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> more exactly "CarGoTram" :)
17:18:30 *** Wezz6400 has joined #openttd
17:18:40 <Belugas> the only tram i ever took was on a museum ;)
17:18:49 <Belugas> the only cargo that i saw was passengers :D
17:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> you don't have trams in canada?
17:20:22 <Belugas> not in Quebec, at least
17:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> compare these two sentences:
17:21:01 <Belugas> well... for sure, not in Montreal, not too sure about Quebec city
17:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> CarGoTram (Dresden) - Wikipedia
17:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> Die CarGoTram ist eine
17:21:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> Cargotram (Zürich) - Wikipedia
17:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> Das Cargotram ist ein [...]
17:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> it has different gender in (east) germany and in switzerland :)
17:22:20 <ln-> the one in Dresden is for girls?
17:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, actually, the word "tram" is not very common in east germany, usually it's "die Straßenbahn", and "artificial" replacement words often take on the gender of the original word associated with them
17:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> same as you would say "die URL" for "die [Internet-]Seite", while it would technically be "der [...] Locator"
17:27:43 <Ammler> But still I'm once per week in Zürich and never saw this cargotram, I have to looking more for it
17:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> looks like it is a garbage collector
17:40:54 <Phazorx> Belugas: there are streetcars in Toronto
17:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> Phazorx: you mean "busses"?
17:42:13 <Phazorx> trams, but they are called streetcars
17:42:33 <Belugas> Never been in Toronto. Good to know :)
17:43:43 <Phazorx> i only saw cargo trams as part of repair crews back in .ru
17:43:54 <Phazorx> and only during night
17:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> not the most promising photo on the front page :p
17:44:12 <Phazorx> they are not used for transportation, only as utility vehicles
17:59:14 *** Ameecher has joined #openttd
17:59:39 <Ameecher> peter1138, you there?
18:01:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10924 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp:
18:01:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#1120]: VS_STOPPED is only set for the front part of an articulated
18:01:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: road vehicle, so don't check any other parts when testing if the vehicle is
18:01:50 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: stopped inside a depot.
18:04:49 <Maedhros> Ameecher: he hasn't spoken since 10 this morning - i think he's on holiday at the moment, so isn't around as much
18:05:03 <Ameecher> ah right, thank you Maedhros
18:08:34 *** Diabolic-Angel has joined #openttd
18:09:39 *** Acerbus has joined #openttd
18:29:19 *** Nussa is now known as _Mucht
18:32:13 *** Diabolic1Angel has joined #openttd
18:37:05 *** raimar2 has joined #openttd
18:39:03 *** Diabolic-Angel has quit IRC
18:45:31 *** Someone has joined #openttd
18:46:03 *** pPACO_BAN has joined #openttd
18:49:36 *** Wolf01|AWAY is now known as Wolf01
19:49:30 *** pPACO_BAN is now known as Phazorx
19:58:32 *** Darkebie has joined #openttd
20:21:14 *** RichK67 has joined #openttd
20:21:22 *** RamboRonny has joined #openttd
20:28:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: richk * r10925 /branches/NewGRF_ports/ (3 files in 3 dirs):
20:28:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [NewGRF_ports] -Add: Added graphics placement of Intercontinental and Helistation. State Machines not yet functional.
20:28:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Change: Both Intercontinental and Helistation now loaded for old games.
20:28:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: **All old game airports now have newgrf equivalents.**
20:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> ***just they don't work yet*** :)
20:31:27 <RichK67> a minor issue ;) just time in editing a newgrf now.... no more coding needed for original airports
20:31:43 <Bjarni> that's the idea of having a branch... you can break stuff and not have to fix it right away
20:32:08 <Bjarni> I mean, you can think about the big picture rather than thinking about how to make it playable all the time
20:32:51 <RichK67> yeah - except of course to test the state machine, i have to be able to play it
20:33:00 <RichK67> so it gets sort of circular
20:33:44 <Bjarni> testable isn't always the same as playable
20:33:46 <RichK67> but the important thing is whether the airport loads... all state machine stuff after that is just data
20:34:30 <RichK67> yeah... its why ive done the LaGuardia and seaplane airports early, as they are fun, and i wanted a little entertainment along the way ;)
20:34:46 <Bjarni> say you make some unsound balance stuff that you know you will have to solve before merging, but something else needs to be done first, then the game can run, but it's likely not enjoyable
20:42:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, we urgently need a revolution! :p
20:43:09 <Bjarni> yeah, that's a good picture of why branches are needed
20:43:36 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: but we already got rid of the communists...
20:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> so what? we could have an islamic revolution or something :)
20:49:30 *** DaleStan has joined #openttd
20:50:14 *** BobingAbout has joined #openttd
21:18:39 *** Farden123 has joined #openttd
21:19:21 *** Digitalfox has joined #openttd
21:25:57 *** Farden123 is now known as Farden
21:49:58 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
21:54:36 *** Dark_Link^ is now known as Dark_Link^sleep
23:19:16 *** Ammller has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
