IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-07-07
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00:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> but you can also have fun with pointers
00:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> imagine lists as struct {data, *next}
00:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> and cat(*l1,*l2) {walk to end of l1, l1->next=l2}
00:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> and now call cat(l,l)
00:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause2> gives you a (incorrect) endless loop
00:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause2> more correct would be: cat(*l1,*l2){walk to end of l1, walk to end of l2 doing l1->next=new element(l2->data)}
00:17:16 <Sacro> hmmm, now i'm seriously confused :(
00:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> mission accomplished :p
00:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> polymorphism is fun :)
00:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause2> it is totally cool :)
00:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> and it's also totally natural
00:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause2> if you go to a car rental, you go there with a variable "car" of abstract class Car, that you want to fill with an instance of a subclass of Car
00:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> and if you call car->gas_pedal, you don't care, if that is a polymorphical call to something really complex
00:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause2> because it behaves totally different on a diesel car, or a hybrid car, or a solar car even
00:32:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> you only care that the car will go faster than before
00:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> that will usually not work :) (only when you push the car yourself)
00:45:30 <Smoovious> no! no bed! must... play... openttd...
00:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> that site is strange... it adds an extra scrollbar next to the existing one of the browser, and the normal scrollbar scrolls into a white area then
00:46:34 <izhirahider> the one I posted here?
00:46:55 <izhirahider> weird, it is fine here
00:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause2> (i use konqueror)
00:47:34 <izhirahider> ah. It's just an open source local news site saying good things about this game
00:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, i understood that :p
00:48:13 <izhirahider> and some bad things like still depending on outside files :)
00:48:31 <izhirahider> but generally good
00:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> i learned spanish in school, so i understand a little portuguese
00:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> what a waste of bandwidth :p
01:05:12 <Ailure> anything intresting lately happening+
01:05:27 <Ailure> Kinda not been paying attention in the last week.
01:05:42 <Ailure> Oh yeah, that above was supposed to be a question mark but key input messes up for some reason
01:08:35 <izhirahider> When is the next OpenTTD release scheduled to be approximately?
01:09:51 <Smoovious> releases aren't scheduled... when they're ready, they're released... the only one that you could call scheduled, would be the automated Nightly builds
01:15:58 <Digitalfox> izhirahider: Nice :)
01:16:25 <Digitalfox> izhirahider: Thanks for the info ;)
01:17:49 <izhirahider> Smoovious, lol, my question certainly deserved that answer :) It was not for me, but for someone else who doesn't want to compile. But I completely forgot about the nightlies, thanks
01:20:09 <Digitalfox> izhirahider: Theres also a tool on the forums to compile windows builds of openttd
01:20:51 <Digitalfox> it's very easy to use
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01:37:30 <Ailure> [03:06] <Smoovious> releases aren't scheduled... when they're ready, they're released... the only one that you could call scheduled, would be the automated Nightly builds
01:37:37 <Ailure> Like Duke nukem forever then
01:38:45 <Smoovious> answer that same question so many times a day... should really set up an event for it
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06:42:33 <Chris|Zzz> is there a way to gracefully remove a patch without breaking savegame compatibility?
06:42:37 *** Chris|Zzz is now known as Chris82
06:43:57 <Rubidium> depends on what the patch initially did
06:44:19 <Rubidium> but it's usually (if not always) technically possible
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06:46:01 <Chris82> I want to remove the signal autocomplete patch from the ChrisIN
06:46:19 <Chris82> I tried to leave the patch setting there and use this MiniIN magic trick, but that doesn't seem to work
06:47:51 <Chris82> oh hmmmm I just compiled a debug version
06:48:10 <Chris82> and it tells me Assertion failed, industry.h line 240 when I load the savegame
06:48:29 <Chris82> industry.h has nothing to do with the signal patch though
06:50:42 <Rubidium> Chris82: might be caused due to the fact that you removed the patch variable from the savegame incorrectly
06:51:29 <Chris82> hmm I used this SDT_CONDBOOL(Patches, sig_autocomplete, IN_CHRISIN_SINCE(70), IN_CHRISIN_TILL(71), 0, 0, false, STR_NULL, NULL),
06:51:38 <Chris82> and increased savegame version to 72
06:51:59 <Chris82> also I left the bool sig_autocomplete in variables.h
06:52:13 <Chris82> I removed the source for the patch in the rail cpp files tho
06:52:27 <Chris82> and I removed it's listing in the patch GUI
06:54:34 <Rubidium> hmm, that looks ok to me, though you could use SDT_CONDNULL (a bool is 1 byte)
06:55:07 <Chris82> do I need to change the false to something else when I use CONDNULL ?
06:56:45 <Rubidium> well, CONDNULL needs only three parameters IIRC
06:57:11 <Rubidium> SDT_CONDNULL(size, first rev, last rev)
06:58:01 <Chris82> right :) just figured that out
06:58:41 <Chris82> size will be the name of the patch? or what do I put there?
06:59:11 <Rubidium> the size of the variable that used to be there
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07:01:59 <Chris82> hmmm nope I still just get this assertion failed error with industry.h line 240
07:02:12 <Chris82> which reads assert(type < INVALID_INDUSTRYTYPE); btw
07:02:18 <Chris82> I did not modify this line tho
07:04:15 <Rubidium> question is: did it work before you try to revert that patch?
07:06:03 <Chris82> yeah, with the patch in there I could load any version since IN-10351
07:06:24 <Chris82> I wanted to replace it with Peters trunk version tho
07:06:59 <Chris82> it can't be the source I removed from the rail files since it just handled how signals are built
07:07:13 <Chris82> that's nothing that would be stored in a savegame, I am pretty sure
07:09:03 <Rubidium> does it happen without the saveload change?
07:13:40 <Chris82> yep happens as well (with peters sig complete)
07:13:51 <Chris82> with the old autocomplete it obviously works
07:14:28 <Chris82> I don't really understand it, I thought when I leave the patch setting there and just remove some source it's as if the patch was still there, it's just doing nothing
07:18:25 <Rubidium> did peter's one add a patch option?
07:19:06 <Chris82> it's just a ctrl "hack"
07:23:31 <peter1138> hack?! how dare you! ;)
07:24:52 <Chris82> :p oh see who's here hehe
07:25:05 <Chris82> I just try an older revision and remove it there
07:25:17 <Chris82> just to see what happens when I only remove the patch option without replacing any source code
07:28:24 <Phazorx> Rubidium: what's the condition on closing primary industries now?
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07:34:01 <Rubidium> very low production -> close
07:39:18 <peter1138> when was that broken? heh
07:39:40 <peter1138> how i do make _name_array allocable?
07:40:00 <Chris82> ok I made some progress Rubidium :)
07:40:14 <Chris82> I only removed the if conditions for the patch and made it SDT_CONDNULL and increased savegame version
07:40:19 <Chris82> I can still load the savegame now
07:40:34 <Chris82> now I try to update source from r10436 to the latest and see if savegames stay intact
07:41:25 <Chris82> I hope this is once again one of the "do it in the right order and everything goes fine" problems :D
07:55:59 <Chris82> the savegame load problem occurs when I update from r10436 to r10439 :(
07:58:57 <Chris82> even tho nothing in saveload, settings, variables etc. is changed in between
07:59:08 <peter1138> well, 10439 has saveload changes
08:01:43 <Chris82> you mean oldloader.cpp?
08:02:16 <Chris82> which change are you refering to?
08:02:31 <peter1138> industry changes... in 10439... uh...
08:03:54 <Chris82> well I had an assertion error in line 240 of industry.h with a debug version I compiled before
08:04:05 <Chris82> I don't know how that would affect my IN tho ?!?
08:04:20 <Chris82> I haven't changed anything with the industries
08:06:08 <Chris82> let me verify it's really r10439 that's causing the problem and not 37 or 38 already
08:09:35 <Noldo> btw. why is there custom array and fixedsize array when stdlib has so many nice containers
08:09:57 <Rubidium> because C doesn't know stdlib?
08:10:10 <Rubidium> and because asm doesn't know stdlib either
08:11:15 <Chris82> yep r10439 breaks the whole IN, but I don't understand which patch these changes could possibly affect
08:11:20 <Rubidium> Noldo: as if *everything* magically starts using std when converting from asm -> c -> c compiled with c++ -> c++
08:11:57 <Rubidium> someone has to refactor the code before it actually starts using stl stuff
08:12:15 <Noldo> Rubidium: someone yes, but it's not neede in openttd codebase
08:13:13 <Rubidium> then why are you asking why those arrays aren't using stl?
08:14:32 <Noldo> Why doesn't openttd use stdlib containers instead of custom made ones?
08:14:58 <Rubidium> because asm and C didn't have the stdlib containers
08:15:34 <Noldo> Why doesn't openttd use stdlib containers instead of custom made ones made in c++?
08:16:11 <Rubidium> because we were C till a few months ago and nobody refactored everything... remember, most of the code is C compiled as C++
08:16:48 <Noldo> Why doesn't openttd use stdlib containers instead of custom made ones made in c++ that use templates so that they can't be used from C code?
08:17:07 <Smoovious> why use standard containers instead of custom ones? generally speaking, custom-to-the-need is better than off-the-shelf...
08:17:15 <Rubidium> BECAUSE WE DIDN'T CONVERT ALL C CODE TO C++ YET!!!!
08:17:44 <Noldo> Rubidium: it's not that
08:18:57 <Rubidium> oh, by the way, we use stl in some places
08:19:13 <Noldo> Rubidium: and for that I'm very happy
08:19:29 <Chris82> hmmm in industry_cmd.cpp there was an SLE_CONDARR added for incoming cargo and one SLE_ARR for produced cargo
08:19:47 <Chris82> this change breaks savegames compatibility within the ChrisIN branch
08:19:48 <Smoovious> what's so great about generic containers?
08:20:10 <Chris82> can I make the second a CONDARR too?
08:20:19 <Rubidium> Smoovious: not reinventing the wheel
08:20:20 <caladan> Just everybody knows how to use them
08:20:31 <Noldo> and the real answer to the question is "Because KUDr wrote yapf to be compilable with 2.95 g++, while now some of the code already needs later version"
08:21:07 <Rubidium> it's still g++ 2.95 compilable IIRC
08:21:27 <Noldo> 2.95 doesn't have c++ stdlib
08:21:50 <Chris82> don't discuss such silly stuff :P help me instead :D
08:23:03 <Rubidium> Chris82: there were savegame changes in that commit, but no savegame bump; the savegame changes that were made in that commit take only effect *after* then next savegame bump is done, which is perfectly fine because saving of those variables is not needed yet
08:23:47 <Rubidium> but because the ChrisIN already has done the savegame bump it's getting messy in there.
08:23:59 <Chris82> hmmm but I don't get why I can't load any savegame anymore with the IN when these changes are added
08:24:08 <Chris82> I can't even load trunk anymore
08:24:27 <Rubidium> the easiest way is to remove the added line *but* you'll need to readd it when trunk bumps it's savegame version
08:24:49 <Chris82> hmmm ok that's an idea :) I didn't know that these variables were not really used yet
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08:27:32 <Chris82> ok I will simply keep the r10438 versions of these files for now then and just update everything else to r10454, these 5 files from your commit aren't modified in any way by the IN anyway so it won't be a problem updating them later
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08:40:43 <Rubidium> Chris82: removing the added CONDARR array, not the complete diff
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08:49:19 <KUDr> <Noldo> btw. why is there custom array and fixedsize array when stdlib has so many nice containers << because stl containers are too slow for yapf
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08:52:20 <Noldo> Rubidium: I'm sorry about the argument we had. I haven't been my self lately.
08:52:47 <Noldo> KUDr: tell me more when I get back from the supermarket
08:53:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10460 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: add some more variables needed for newindustries regarding to the creation of the industries.
08:56:47 <Smoovious> KUDr has to try to come up with more to tell Noldo
08:57:31 <KUDr> Noldo is our ne ottd CEO? or what?
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09:13:30 <peter1138> seems to be assuming the switch from C to C++ involved refactoring everything in one go...
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09:21:12 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10461 /branches/noai/ (187 files in 18 dirs): [NoAI] -Sync with trunk r10349:r10460.
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09:27:09 <Smoovious> just for laughs, and make cross-platform compatability easier, why don't we convert it to Java? :D >ducks<
09:29:38 <KUDr> it is not doable step-by-step
09:30:12 <Smoovious> I sure as hell wouldn't wanna play it in Java
09:30:52 <KUDr> why? Java is fine. Small maps would run ok there
09:32:06 <KUDr> no, i am working on sigsim in java and map 256x256 renders fine (same coord system and transforms as in ottd)
09:32:33 <Rubidium> Smoovious: don't underestimate the power of a JIT compiler
09:32:40 <KUDr> also map scroll is fast enough
09:33:02 <Rubidium> ok, awt/swing aren't that fast, but that isn't used most of the time
09:33:22 <Smoovious> (that was a hint to elaborate)
09:33:41 <KUDr> you can render into images and lay them on top of each other and then it is fast
09:34:12 <Smoovious> so sigsim is a graphics editor?
09:34:34 <KUDr> gui for signal simulator
09:35:15 <KUDr> where you can simulate map, tracks, signals, and run trains and watch for srashes
09:37:43 <KUDr> i do it only because i need to learn more about Java & Swing (for work)
09:38:02 <KUDr> but it give surprisingly good results
09:38:35 <Smoovious> well, the majority of my comparisons had to do with T and Az
09:39:24 <KUDr> depends on how you write
09:39:45 <KUDr> it is much easier to write slow program in Java than in C
09:39:58 <KUDr> and harder to get it fast
09:40:14 <Smoovious> yeah... but with C you don't bring your system to its knees just loading a runtime environ
09:40:17 <KUDr> bu i saw also examples where Java was faster
09:40:21 <Noldo> KUDr: more as in, what did the stdlib do wrong
09:41:24 <KUDr> Noldo: stl doesn't have suitable container - fast filling, growing ability, persistent iterators (no relocations)
09:41:41 <KUDr> so list was slow, vector was slow, etc
09:42:24 <KUDr> i needed to keep pointers to items stored there, so vector ws unusable
09:42:44 <KUDr> list uses lot of allocations so it is slow and fragments memory
09:43:01 <KUDr> and contains links that i don't need
09:43:15 <KUDr> i needed something like memory pool
09:43:31 <KUDr> and the old mempool was in C and terribly slow
09:44:14 <KUDr> you should understand that stl is good to be used when it gives us benefits but there were no benefits
09:44:44 <KUDr> and similar it is with blob
09:44:58 <Noldo> yes I should, some how it never seems to sink in ;)
09:45:14 <KUDr> stl doesn't have similar things (from performance POV)
09:50:43 <Noldo> where are the blobs used?
09:51:44 <KUDr> which is inherited from it
09:52:18 <Noldo> yes it seems to have a very baseclass feel to it
09:53:02 <KUDr> yes it is made to be as simple as possible
09:54:04 <KUDr> but still suitable for use as return value from a functions (without need to copy buffer as stl strinf does in this case)
09:54:53 <KUDr> and sizeof(blor or CStrA) == sizeof(void*)
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10:06:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10462 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
10:06:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Add: a command dumper/loader that could be enabled compile-time and server side
10:06:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: only to aid debugging some desyncs, i.e. dump the stream of commands so it could
10:06:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: be replayed in exactly the same way later. This should primarily be used to make
10:06:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: desyncs more easily reproducable, so it can be properly debugged.
10:12:07 <ln-> greetings from helsinki-vantaa airport
10:17:09 <Noldo> KUDr: what about hashtable, is there anything special about that besides using blobs
10:20:39 <Noldo> I would guess that it too is designed to be fst
10:21:00 <KUDr> but here i had no choice
10:21:10 <KUDr> stl doesn't have such thing
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11:44:26 <Tlustoch> Is it possible to build pre-signals automatically? In ttdpatch pre-signals are added automatically.
11:45:01 <Tlustoch> That's lot of extra work
11:47:24 <Tlustoch> You should allow building in pause so one would have time to do it :-)
11:48:30 <hylje> or yes, but its around 5 million years
11:49:01 <Tlustoch> I thought that the game ends in some year.
11:49:06 <Tlustoch> And the score is recorded.
11:50:04 <hylje> you can continue from that
11:50:23 <Smoovious> building in pause is in the cheat menu, for single-player only
11:55:23 <Tlustoch> Btw do you have some save of advanced game?
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11:58:39 <Gekkko`> is the Fund New Town patch still in ChrisIN?
11:58:53 <Chris82> Rubidium: I found the perfect solution for the savegame problem now :) I just made the stuff you added IN_CHRISIN_SINCE(72), SL_MAX_VERSION), instead of 70, SL_MAX_VERSION...
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11:59:34 <Chris82> I don't know yet what'll happen when trunk is 70 but I'll figure that out when time has come :p
11:59:50 <Gekko> Chris82: Fund New Town patch still in ChrisIN?
12:00:28 <Chris82> I just removed autosignals and added two new so far
12:00:35 <Chris82> I probably post a new build today or tomorrow
12:01:03 <Gekko> just span around on my computer chair
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12:49:57 <stillunknown> Chris82: trunk is at 70
12:57:15 <Rubidium> stillunknown: it iss?
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13:02:01 <peter1138> for the new definition of 'at 70'
13:21:38 <skidd13> How many sprites are in the flags.grf?
13:45:47 <skidd13> I rewrote the nand signal patch, but something is wrong :( . Can someone chech my patch.. IMO it is something with the map array...
13:50:38 <Chris82> stillunknown: Trunk is at 69 afaik, but this new patch that was prepared will be 70 and with trunk these conditions aren't checked, but since ChrisIN is at 72 they were checked
13:59:45 <stillunknown> if (CheckSavegameVersion(70)) {
13:59:51 <stillunknown> But revision is at 69
14:00:14 <stillunknown> It's newindustries related so i'm guessing that's you.
14:02:25 <Chris82> does anybody know who made the Mail Subsidy Patch? I don't remember who wrote it
14:03:12 <Smoovious> but with the changes being made to industries and economy lately, I don't know if they'll conflict or not... was going to wait and see what direction it goes
14:04:03 <Smoovious> didja have a problem?
14:04:20 <Chris82> no I just intended to add it to ChrisIN
14:04:48 <Chris82> I have figured out now how to remove a patch, so if it goes into trunk or something similar is introduced with new industries it shouldn't cause problems
14:04:54 <Smoovious> oh ok... lemme know if it gets uppity... I'll whip it back into submission
14:05:17 <Chris82> all it will do is offer mail subsidies right?
14:05:41 <Smoovious> well, there was some re-organizing done, but essentially, yeah
14:06:10 <stillunknown> The concept of maglev engines is so screwed up.
14:06:28 <Smoovious> unless there was a change in trunk directly related to town subsidies tho, should be ok
14:06:40 <Smoovious> yeah... maglevs have motors
14:07:01 <Smoovious> ya can't really buy track to build a train t ho
14:07:27 <stillunknown> I'm considering this kind of beheaviour for maglev:
14:07:57 <Chris82> well just use DB Set XL :p
14:08:06 <stillunknown> Maglev can go up hills fine, but are length limited.
14:08:11 <Chris82> the Vanilla TTD trains are screwed up anyway
14:08:30 <stillunknown> So let the number of engines be irrelevant.
14:08:37 <stillunknown> Assume track is adapted to region.
14:09:04 <stillunknown> Fixed acceleration up to a certain train length (10 wagons), then max out due to power requirements.
14:09:53 <stillunknown> The transrapid for instance (on flat terrain) has a tractive effort of 90 kN. Maximum length of 10 cars.
14:10:22 <stillunknown> And since gradients up to 10% are possible it should be hardly be hindered by 3%.
14:13:07 <Chris82> Smoovious: Very nice patches :) I like that patches that add some good functionality without requiring a patch option hehe
14:13:13 <Chris82> saves a lot of savegame hazzle
14:13:38 <Chris82> when I am done testing it I will make a fix inflation patch
14:13:46 <Chris82> it's way too high late in the game
14:14:05 <Chris82> and after that regional taxes :D
14:15:11 <Smoovious> well, that subsidies one was more about bringing something back that got lost... my original version included some customization to it too, but I started it over... gonna hold off on the original plan until the new industry stuff is done being worked out
14:15:36 <Smoovious> <Chris82> it's way too high late in the game <--- sounds prototypical to me. :P
14:16:13 <Chris82> well I have a game that's in 2318 and demolishing one house costs a few hundread billion
14:16:42 <Smoovious> yeah, that sounds about right
14:16:47 <Chris82> that's nowhere near real life inflation, although we can never know how many world wars happen until 2318 so the assumption might be wrong :D
14:17:13 <Smoovious> well, inflation is cumulative...
14:17:26 <stillunknown> Maybe a reevaluation of currency is needed every 100 years.
14:18:24 <Smoovious> just look at how yen amounts were years ago before they re-valued it...
14:18:29 <Smoovious> way too many zeroes
14:21:35 <Chris82> well assuming inflation is 2% and in 2000 you pay 1 million for demolishing a house then you should pay 380 million in 2300
14:21:52 <Chris82> but in the game it's more like in 2000 you pay 100k and in 2300 you pay 1 billion
14:22:29 <Chris82> assuming an inflation of more than 2% on average for the next 300 years is exaggerated if you don't bet on a few world wars
14:22:44 <Smoovious> some areas of inflation out-pace others. :)
14:25:04 <Chris82> I just try to figure out how high inflation actually is in the game
14:25:38 <Chris82> Approximation for (100 + infl_amount)% ** (1 / 12) - 100%
14:25:44 <Chris82> I wonder what value infl_amount has tho
14:28:23 <Noldo> is inflation even relevant for most of the game?
14:30:09 <Smoovious> or your income would never match expenditures
14:30:20 <Chris82> if inflation is turned it's very relevant yeah
14:30:25 <Chris82> even when you only play 50 years
14:34:27 <Chris82> static void AddInflation() < I don't really get what is done by this function
14:34:45 <Chris82> I mean what it does is clear, but not the how and what all the values mean
14:36:18 <Tefad> infl_amount looks like it's per 12months
14:36:20 <Noldo> does it effect both income and costs?
14:36:56 <Tefad> my guess ist hat addinflation tweaks some globals
14:37:39 <Chris82> _economy.interest_rate = _opt.diff.initial_interest;
14:37:39 <Chris82> _economy.infl_amount = _opt.diff.initial_interest;
14:37:59 <Chris82> do I assume it correctly that inflation amount is controlled by the interest rate set in difficulty?
14:38:31 <Rubidium> stillunknown: it was me who added the if (CheckSavegameVersion(70)) {
14:39:26 <Rubidium> and the savegame bump isn't needed because we don't care if you get the wrong founder for the next few hundred trunk revisions and it's certain there will be a savegame bump before newindustries (finally) hits trunk, so I don't see a problem
14:45:29 <Chris82> hmmm one good thing I just found out already is that daylength patch has no influence on yearly inflation
14:49:56 <Chris82> hmmm with interest rate at 4% inflation is 2,9% in the first year and 4,2% in the second year
14:50:40 <Tefad> i'm going to assume the base unit of money doesn't inflate
14:51:37 <Chris82> I don't really get how this is calculated I observered 10 years with an interest of 2% and 4% now
14:51:48 <Chris82> with 2% inflation is 1,5%-2,5%
14:51:57 <Chris82> 2% interest rate I mean
14:52:11 <Tefad> why are you using non-english number marks
14:52:14 <Chris82> with 4% inflation is 3% to 5%
14:52:34 <Tefad> , is not english decimal place
14:52:54 <Chris82> well that doesn't make sense at all to me
14:53:06 <Chris82> since when does interest rate influence inflation
14:53:16 <Tefad> so 3% and 5% are both 2x 1.5 and 2.5
14:53:33 <Chris82> ah that's what you mean with makes sense
14:53:50 <Tefad> and i see what you mean by not making sense : D
14:53:58 <Chris82> yeah I figured out how inflation is calculated now, but based on what I see it's way too high
14:54:14 <Tefad> it appears to be based on interest rate
14:55:44 <Chris82> hmmm I think I am too young
14:56:03 <Chris82> when I look at history for the time span from 1920-1970 such an inflation is actually pretty realistic, if not too low
14:56:16 <Chris82> it's only been the last two decades that inflation was so low
14:56:28 <Tefad> low inflation is kind of a good thing
14:56:43 <Tefad> and remember this game is a over a decade old
14:57:12 <Chris82> yeah, but I had the wrong assumption that the inflation we had the last 20 years was there the time before too, but in the 70s inflation was partially well over 10%
14:57:31 <Chris82> yeah so at the time of programming this was even a low value for inflation
14:58:05 <Chris82> result... I will try to make a patch with higher inflation in the beginning and low inflation after 2000
14:58:38 <Chris82> I assume not many people pay long past 2050, but for those who do numbers just get way too big
14:59:05 <Tefad> look at other currency's histories
14:59:40 <Tefad> some went as high as being less than the value of the paper the older (smaller denomination) bills were printed upon
15:00:03 <Tefad> people using that currency found it cheaper to insulate buildings with money rather than buy insulation
15:00:59 <Tefad> in the US, the one cent (penny) was changed from copper to zinc with copper plating, due to the value of the copper in a penny exceeding $0.01
15:01:06 <Chris82> I just figure Japan actually had deflation this century
15:01:22 <Chris82> good thing when you have money on your bank account and it's loosing worth :D
15:01:45 <Tefad> eh deflating means your money gains value
15:02:24 <Chris82> I know but I've learned it's bad for economy
15:02:39 <Tefad> well people get paid less as a result i'm guessing
15:02:45 <Smoovious> cuz people aren't willing to get paid less to compensate
15:02:47 <Tefad> and don't want to spend as much
15:02:59 <Smoovious> even tho they're really getting more
15:03:13 <Smoovious> so inflation is permanent
15:03:30 <Smoovious> with t he occasionala burp here and there
15:03:48 <Smoovious> nah... never 0%... we got unions...
15:03:57 <Chris82> I am sure inflation/deflation has been measured at world war times as well
15:04:04 <Chris82> must be crazy high values for DM
15:04:30 <Tefad> what's the currency code for DM? .. DM?
15:05:19 <Noldo> it seems deflation as such is just a symptom
15:06:07 <Chris82> well deflation only occurs in short intervals and also only in "closed" areas of economy such as valuables (immovables etc.), or wages
15:06:08 <Noldo> it happens when the demand for money goes down and that only happens when companies stop investing
15:07:10 <Tefad> On June 21, 2007 the American ambassador to Zimbabwe, Christopher Dell, told the Guardian newspaper that inflation could reach 1.5 million per cent (1,500,000%) by the end of the year. The current unofficial inflation rate is above 11,000%, and the black-market exchange rate is Z$400,000 to the pound.
15:07:29 <Sacro> i'm sure this isn't honey oat bread
15:07:46 <Chris82> if that currency was a stock I'd short it big time :D
15:09:32 <Chris82> hmmm so maybe I could even make a patch that has different inflation for all currencies
15:09:42 <Chris82> so choosing the currency actually has a real effect on games
15:10:07 <Chris82> I mean right now inflation is the same for all currencies, they have a fixed exchange rate
15:10:30 <Tefad> maybe you could have a "realistic" inflation patch that would reflect the actual currency through out its time period?
15:10:43 <Tefad> in multiplayer games, this patch could not be used
15:10:58 <Tefad> or has to match the server eh?
15:13:58 <Noldo> I don't think that direction would give anything valuable to the gameplay
15:15:56 <Chris82> well it would definitely be a realistic inflation patch and not replace the current situation
15:16:17 <Chris82> I primarily intend to try out new stuff with patches not get my stuff in trunk forceably :D
15:17:41 <Noldo> now the currency setting is just about the presentation of money
15:18:08 <Noldo> that kind of historic inlfation would make it a gameplay setting
15:18:31 <Tefad> when to save money and when to invest in capital eh?
15:18:39 <Tefad> or when it's worth it to save money
15:18:47 <Tefad> or cheapest to payoff loans
15:19:15 <Noldo> and also the selected currency would tie the game world to certain historic economies
15:19:25 <Tefad> interest rate could be done to reflect real values too
15:20:41 <Chris82> hmmm actually when I consider it this would be more fun when it's more like random and not like real currencies developed
15:20:50 <Chris82> otherwise you would know in advance when to save and when to invest
15:21:00 <Chris82> with random events you would need to handle your money more with care
15:21:18 <Chris82> there could be pre-signs like a news message stock exchange crash or something like that
15:22:04 <Noldo> let's build an economy simulator! \o/
15:23:43 <Tlustoch> I have started a game with total town replacement set and the cities generate unnaturally lot of people. Is it normal?
15:23:59 <Chris82> TTRS only replaces building graphics iirc
15:24:11 <Chris82> maybe your patch setting city growth is on fast?
15:24:31 <Chris82> oh sorry I misunderstood you I think
15:24:39 <Chris82> you mean buildings generate more people than they usually do right?
15:25:04 <Tlustoch> I dont know. I just have over 1000 people at station.
15:25:16 <Tlustoch> I never had that in the begining of the game
15:25:57 <Tlustoch> I also started the game in 1927. Maybe this could be problem?
15:26:06 <Rubidium> once a town starts expanding a little the amount of "commercial" buildings in/near the center rises
15:26:11 <Chris82> but in the beginning there are small towns and they grow to big cities
15:26:17 <Chris82> and big cities generate a lot more people
15:26:35 <Rubidium> the amount of passengers generated by "commercial" buildings is much larger than that amount of passengers generated by houses
15:27:23 <Chris82> maybe TTRS generates more commercial buildings than normal OTTD
15:27:30 <Chris82> I have no comparison since I always play with TTRS :)
15:27:31 <Tlustoch> I play 1024x1024 map and I have cities with around 2,500 in the beginning. But that's still no reason to generate over 1500 to the station.
15:28:03 <Chris82> depends, if you build a bus station in the city center and only send one bus there with a long travel distance there can easily wait that many people in a 2,5k city
15:28:04 <Rubidium> passengers accumulate over time, so if you don't transport enough people they stockpile
15:28:57 <Rubidium> they are removed too, but apparantly the rating of the station is still too high to get it down quickly
15:29:51 <Chris82> I think passengers start to dissapear only short before a 0 rating
15:32:44 <Chris82> I have a problem with TortoiseSVN
15:33:06 <Chris82> when I create a patch file from some of the language files all special characters are converted to a black box breaking the .diff file
15:33:13 <Chris82> is there an alternative to Tortoise?
15:34:53 <sartsj> does anyone know if it is possible to run openttd in dedicated mode under linux without an x window installed?
15:35:54 <sartsj> well i know the parameter, i was just wondering if it is possible to run it at all without x window
15:36:03 <Rubidium> sartsj: did you compile OTTD yourself or did you take some binary from somewhere?
15:36:23 <sartsj> i was trying to compile it myself, but i think it needs x windows when you compile it?
15:36:29 <Rubidium> because you can compile OTTD without any libraries that need X
15:36:45 <Rubidium> what version of OTTD? 0.5.something I presume
15:37:18 <sartsj> i received an error from libSDL
15:37:19 <Rubidium> open Makefile.config, search for DEDICATED and set that to 1
15:37:19 <sartsj> /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i486-slackware-linux/3.3.4/../../../../i486-slackware-linux/bin/ld: warning: libX11.so.6, needed by /usr/lib/libSDL.so, not found (try using -rpath or -rpath-link)
15:37:20 <sartsj> /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i486-slackware-linux/3.3.4/../../../../i486-slackware-linux/bin/ld: warning: libXext.so.6, needed by /usr/lib/libSDL.so, not found (try using -rpath or -rpath-link)
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15:50:00 <thomas001> hi, i've a little ingame question: i have a railway with one track per direction, but it gets overfull,too many trains,a breakdown stops sometimes 5 trains and slower trains also slow the fast ones down. is there a standard way to build a high traffic railway? i sometimes build 2 tracks per direction for those situations and interweave those both tracks,but i'm pretty sure i don't to it optimally.
15:55:06 <sartsj> i think i've seen examples of a 2-track railway somewhere
15:55:55 <thomas001> hmm no,i'll have a look,thx
15:59:39 <thomas001> hmm why has the overtaking track a small strait section and does not go directly onto the other track?
16:00:00 <thomas001> i used to leave that out :-/
16:00:51 <stillunknown> thomas001: because you block two lines when switching
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16:06:53 <thomas001> hmm why are those exit signals two-sided? first i thought its some kind of priority,but it doesn't seem to be one?
16:12:59 <stillunknown> thomas001: it prevents switches from track if the track is full
16:13:30 <stillunknown> Otherwise you block a mainline.
16:14:17 *** skidd13 has joined #openttd
16:16:41 <thomas001> hmm i think about that while jogging,thx
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16:39:23 <Chris82> hi there, is it right that I can't start latest trunk without a sound card anymore?
16:39:37 <Chris82> my server doesn't have a sound card obviously and I get a can't find suitable sound driver error
16:41:39 <Noldo> check the command line arguments
16:41:55 <Noldo> you might be able to set the sound driver to null or something like that
16:43:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10463 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
16:43:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-07 18:42:35
16:43:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 4 fixed by arnaullv (4)
16:43:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 15 fixed by kristjans (15)
16:43:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: japanese - 4 fixed by ickoonite (4)
16:43:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: piglatin - 28 fixed by adammw (23), miham (5)
16:43:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: romanian - 7 fixed by kneekoo (7)
16:44:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10464 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/latvian.txt:
16:44:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-07-07 18:44:01
16:44:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 293 fixed, 21 changed by amjaliks (254), pakalns (60)
16:45:24 <Progman> Chris82: openttd -s null
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17:11:00 <Phazorx> hmm.. if a station order is timetabled and fullload
17:11:10 <Phazorx> is it gonna be trigegred by whatever happens 1st?
17:11:30 <Rubidium> it only leaves when all preconditions for leaving are met
17:14:37 <Phazorx> hmm... that's not good
17:14:50 <Phazorx> OR would be more usefull than AND
17:15:00 <Phazorx> and btw - gradual loading is not supposed to affect trams?
17:15:45 <Rubidium> it does; trams are no different than trains, ships or whatever other vehicle in the loading/unloading algorithms
17:16:41 <Phazorx> Rubidium: could it be set problem then?
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17:16:49 <Phazorx> i see serbina trains laod instantly
17:17:47 <Phazorx> and as a requst - it would be nice to have either triggerable OR if not just OR as default for full load/wait time
17:18:11 <Phazorx> cuz using vehicles as colelctor from multiple points would benefit from it
17:18:13 <Rubidium> well, full load is useless in that case
17:18:35 <Phazorx> but think about - there is no point of keeping to schedule if vehicles is full already
17:18:51 <Rubidium> Phazorx: but then it has to wait at the unloading station
17:19:12 <Phazorx> why would it wait there ?
17:19:21 <Phazorx> if i only schedule loading part
17:19:38 <Phazorx> the setup i'm applying that to is ships polling oil rigs
17:19:57 <Phazorx> they are instructed to wait certain amount of time proportional to output of each rig
17:20:18 <Rubidium> but in that case if the oil rig has an enormous amount of oil and you didn't specify enough time, it'll just go when it can still load
17:20:21 <Phazorx> however sometimes they get full even before that - and waiting extra days on next rig where they can nto laod anything is quite pointless
17:21:16 <Phazorx> oh no, say ot takes 30 days to laod whole thing - then i'd have 40 days of loadining scheduled at different points
17:21:32 <Phazorx> so assuming there is enough oil - it will take all it can
17:21:58 <Phazorx> however "all it can" can be reached before end of route due to timing with other vehivles
17:22:32 <Rubidium> I really do not see any benefit of letting ships wait (long) in this scenario
17:22:50 <Rubidium> just let them go from oil rigs to oil rigs and let them load all they can and then let them continue
17:23:25 <Phazorx> it'd better for getting rating higher to keep ships at rigs for a while
17:23:42 <Phazorx> preferably - one ship waits at each rig and takes cargo at any point of time
17:23:49 <Phazorx> but that is unreachable goal
17:24:15 <Phazorx> so i time it in a way so ships "poll" each rig for certain time and then go to base
17:24:18 * Rubidium wonders why a waiting ship is soo much better
17:24:41 <Phazorx> Rubidium: waiting full is useless waiting and loading means there is no stockpile at station
17:24:50 <Phazorx> hence raiting goes up
17:25:06 <Rubidium> yes, but waiting for nothing with cargo aging in your ship is even worse
17:25:29 <Phazorx> considering ship traveltime which in that case is 3x load time
17:25:38 <Phazorx> it can be cared les about
17:26:02 <Phazorx> perhaps i should go back to dedicated ships per rigs
17:26:43 <Rubidium> there are much people that use the AND variant and do not need the OR variant and making both of them available isn't really a good idea imo
17:26:50 <Phazorx> so u'd recommend no time table, nothing 0 just take all you can and move on?
17:27:23 <Phazorx> well AND means there is not much sense in timetable, they just wait for full load then?
17:28:17 <Rubidium> full load and timetable shouldn't be used at the same time
17:28:36 <Rubidium> but that's something completely different
17:28:49 <Phazorx> well.. it is pointless with AND scenario.. it could be usefull with OR
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17:29:44 <Phazorx> ona s side not - is it possible just to have same mechanizm measurung ships travel/wait time averages and presenting in info?
17:29:51 <Rubidium> *if* the ship is full, it should go straight to the unloading place, not go to twenty other pickup points
17:29:52 <Phazorx> since information is collecetd already
17:30:08 <Phazorx> Rubidium: that would be even nicer, but i bet harder to do
17:30:24 <Phazorx> skip-if-full functionality makes sense to me
17:30:35 <Rubidium> still, I'm not into the order handling stuff, and I don't really care about that at the moment either
17:33:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10465 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix: first run the WE_CREATE callback and then perform the dirtying of the window, so you won't get glitches if you resize a window in the WE_CREATE callback.
17:36:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10466 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix: the minimum amount of waiting cargo shouldn't be 65535; that should be the maximum amount of waiting cargo.
17:37:11 <Progman> now a station can have >4095 amount of cargos?
17:38:52 <peter1138> heh, someone confused min/max again :)
17:39:27 <stillunknown> Luckily newgrf_industries is unused ;-)
17:41:40 <Rubidium> Progman: you could already before that commit as the station had nothing to do with it
17:42:48 <Progman> the industry see that there were already 4095 tons and dont load there anymore?
17:50:24 <alex_> anyone running openttd on debian?
17:50:34 <alex_> im having a couple of troubles compoiling
17:51:29 <Noldo> please share, there is a pastething in the topic if you need it
17:51:36 <Rubidium> apt-get install libsdl-dev zlib1g-dev g++ libpng12-dev libfontcache-dev libfreetype2-dev
17:51:58 <Rubidium> I wonder whether that are the correct package names though
17:52:25 <alex_> Rubidium: im running etch
17:52:43 <Rubidium> shouldn't be a problem
17:52:51 <peter1138> libsdl1.2-dev i think
17:52:58 <alex_> E: Couldn't find package libfontcache-dev
17:53:02 <peter1138> that, along with g++, is the most important
17:53:16 <Rubidium> it should've been libfontconfig1-dev
17:53:42 <alex_> im going to be throwing up around 10 dedicated servers
17:53:48 <alex_> i absolutley love openttd
17:53:59 <alex_> been playing it ttd since the ole days
17:55:16 <stillunknown> alex_: I sure hope you don't intend to run all of those servers on a single computer?
17:55:25 <alex_> stillunknown: of course not :)
17:55:48 <alex_> i have a few machines in my rack doing nothing
17:55:53 <alex_> and some at home doing nothing
17:55:57 <alex_> so ill put em to some use
17:56:39 <alex_> E: Couldn't find package libfreetype2-dev
17:56:40 <alex_> debian:/home/user# apt-cache search freetype2
17:56:40 <alex_> freetype2-demos - FreeType 2 demonstration programs
17:56:51 <alex_> hmmm etch doesnt have libfretype?
17:57:21 <peter1138> libfreetype6-dev - FreeType 2 font engine, development files
17:58:26 <Noldo> alex_: apt-cache search or aptitude search might have helpped
17:58:31 <hylje> debian package names are not always predictable
17:58:46 <stillunknown> Sometimes based on library major versions.
18:01:09 <hylje> and that major version can be x, x.y..
18:01:25 <colle> debian often (always?) does the naming the way stillunknown says
18:01:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10467 /branches/0.5/ (industry_cmd.c window.c):
18:01:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.5] -Backport from trunk (r10406, r10465):
18:01:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Visual glitches when a window is resized in the WE_CREATE callback (r10465)
18:01:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Only industries in the temperate climate should be affected by the "do not increase production" flag [FS#968] (r10406)
18:08:37 *** skidd13 has joined #openttd
18:14:47 <sartsj> everytime i start my openttd with -D, my .cfg gets reverted to an old one (i changed the diff_custom and map_x/y values)
18:15:10 <sartsj> those 2 values go back to the default ones
18:16:16 <caladan> and what version and OS do you use?
18:17:08 <sartsj> it works fine, it saves other options i changed
18:17:32 <caladan> hmm, strange thing, i use in gentoo 0.5.2 and it preserves all settings
18:17:34 <sartsj> but i've tried to change those 2 for a few times now, but everytime it starts up with the default values, and changes my .cfg back as well
18:18:04 <caladan> you change it manually with text editor?
18:18:34 <caladan> hmm, what about extra config?
18:18:38 <caladan> does it change it too?
18:19:33 <sartsj> i just changed it again and started openttd, and now it starts with a big map
18:20:16 <sartsj> it did keep the map size now
18:20:30 <sartsj> but it reset the diff_custom to default again
18:21:10 <caladan> i assume that you know how to use linux :P
18:21:10 <peter1138> make sure diff_level is 3
18:21:38 <alex_> in debian where should i stick the data files for openttd?
18:22:15 <thomas001> alex_: /usr/share/games/openttd as the packages tells you
18:22:54 <alex_> the package told me that it needs to data files
18:23:02 <alex_> not the path to put them :P
18:23:17 <thomas001> /usr/share/doc/openttd/something tells you that ;)
18:27:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10468 /branches/0.5/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [0.5] -Prepare 0.5 branch for release of 0.5.3-RC2.
18:31:11 <edeca> Hrm, when the frontpage says "this release candidate sometimes crashes when trains go over bridges".. does it mean that the actual trains crash?
18:31:21 <edeca> I've just had 2 trains crash that were on completely seperate lines
18:33:56 <Thomas[NL]> don't use that release it is buggy as hell
18:41:10 <edeca> Yeah, I just found out as I became profitable :)
18:41:19 * edeca wonders if the game will load in an older version
18:42:37 * alex_ has openttd working in debian :)
18:43:19 <alex_> Rubidium, peter1138, thanks for you help
18:44:15 <alex_> are things such as autoclean a mod? or a cfg'able option?
18:49:11 <sartsj> does anyone else think the orange in ttd isnt really orange
18:50:17 <peter1138> whoops, i left my game running
18:55:44 <alex_> does openttd ned udp and tcp?
18:58:47 <Ammller> sartsj: orange is the color of #openttdcoop
19:00:29 <sartsj> i meant orange as livery color, not sure if thats what you mean?
19:01:14 <alex_> dbg: [NET] Listening on 0.0.0.0:3979
19:01:14 <alex_> dbg: [NET] Server could not start network: bind() failed
19:01:23 <alex_> hmmmm any ideas why i cant get her up ?
19:01:28 *** Chicago_R_A has joined #openttd
19:01:51 <alex_> ./openttd -D -n 192.168.0.8:3979
19:02:41 <Rubidium> dedicated server and trying to join a network game
19:03:04 <alex_> dbg: [NET][Core] Network online. Multiplayer available.
19:03:04 <alex_> dbg: Detected broadcast addresses:
19:03:04 <alex_> dbg: [NET] Listening on 0.0.0.0:3979
19:03:04 <alex_> dbg: [NET] Server could not start network: bind() failed
19:03:05 <alex_> dbg: Generating map, please wait...
19:03:12 <alex_> debian:/usr/games# ./openttd -D
19:03:30 <Sacro> alex_: something else is using the port
19:03:35 <Rubidium> well: a) there's already an instance op OTTD running, b) you don't have the right to open that port
19:05:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10469 /tags/0.5.3-RC2/ (6 files): -Release 0.5.3-RC2.
19:05:42 <alex_> moved it up to 3980, works fine :)
19:05:56 <alex_> could any of you jump on my server - its called alex's test server
19:06:03 <alex_> so i can watch cpu usage
19:06:05 <peter1138> clearly you have two servers running :p
19:07:08 <Sacro> so, how come i can ping www.google.co.uk
19:07:16 <Sacro> and access the whole interwebs, but not ping 192.168.2.1
19:08:05 <colle> 'cause some servers don't answer icmp-requests
19:08:43 <Sacro> ping pc.benwoodward.me.uk :)
19:09:08 <colle> so do a traceroute to that address
19:09:48 <Sacro> 1 192.168.2.50 (192.168.2.50) 1584.895 ms !H * 1980.068 ms !H
19:13:05 <Sacro> hmm strange, when player goes first its fine
19:13:09 <Sacro> but when i choose to go 2nd
19:13:14 <Sacro> the computer gets 3 goes and a line :(
19:15:22 <Sacro> something is not quite right with that
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19:18:33 <alex_> how long does it usually take for the master server list to update your newly created server>?
19:19:17 <Rubidium> or your server wasn't reachable from the masterserver and then it won't get added to the list
19:20:00 <alex_> dbg: [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
19:20:00 <alex_> dbg: [NET][UDP] Advertising to master server
19:20:12 <Rubidium> did it say that is was advertised?
19:20:49 <alex_> im getting lots of queries hmm but i cant see it on the list :)
19:22:40 <alex_> im not using the default port
19:22:51 <alex_> that shouldnt make a difference tho
19:22:55 <Rubidium> probably the packet is being thrashed somewhere by your firewall
19:23:28 <benc_> nmap/portqry, udp, the master server from shell
19:24:08 <alex_> im getting TONS of queries
19:24:21 <alex_> but i cant see the server in the list? :)
19:24:36 <benc_> wild guess, any weird characters in the name?
19:24:36 <alex_> benc_: nmap works fine for master server
19:25:37 <alex_> ill change my server name to
19:26:15 <alex_> server_name = [alex test server]
19:26:51 <alex_> dbg: [NET] Resolved master.openttd.org to 81.171.98.111
19:26:51 <alex_> dbg: [NET][UDP] Advertising to master server
19:26:51 <alex_> dbg: [NET][UDP] Queried from 81.171.98.111
19:26:57 <alex_> dbg: [NET][UDP] Queried from 90.14.174.235
19:26:58 <Rubidium> "[NET][UDP] We are advertised on the master-server!" <- you should see that if you are advertised
19:27:22 <Rubidium> if you don't see it, you're not advertised
19:27:22 <alex_> i only need to open ports 3797+ ?
19:27:41 <alex_> ive opened 3000-5000 tcp and udp
19:28:03 <_42_> Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication and UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advsertise) communication (outbound)
19:29:02 <alex_> could i setup a server on port like 4000?
19:29:17 <alex_> would that cause issue?
19:29:59 <Rubidium> it shouldn't as there are many servers not running at the default ports
19:33:50 <alex_> debian:/usr/games# nmap -p3900-4000 master.openttd.org
19:34:03 <alex_> All 101 scanned ports on master.openttd.org (81.171.98.111) are closed
19:37:20 <alex_> nmap -pU3900-4000 master.openttd.org
19:37:36 <benc_> nmap -u -p3900-4000 master.openttd.org
19:37:39 * Sacro hands a dangly pointer up and goes for food
19:38:12 <alex_> -u by itself doesnt work
19:38:24 <alex_> and yeah still all closed....
19:45:57 <alex_> dbg: [NET][UDP] Queried from 81.171.98.111
19:45:57 <alex_> dbg: [NET][UDP] We are advertised on the master-server!
19:46:07 <alex_> i setup a DMZ to the server
19:46:11 <alex_> and now it works.... interesting
19:47:24 <alex_> could you guys join [alex test server]
19:47:28 <alex_> and piss around for a little bit
19:47:33 <alex_> so i can test CPU usage please :)
19:47:50 <alex_> then ill fire up the rest of the variants tonight
19:48:31 <benc_> if you want to test peak CPU usage, just log on yourself, cheat yourself a few mill, then use the level land tool on a large scale
19:48:51 <Rubidium> just load pile transport or so ;)
19:49:12 <Rubidium> or check whether he has YAPF for ships enabled
19:49:39 <benc_> or grab some of openttdcoop's saves
19:50:04 <Rubidium> benc_: already said that
19:50:11 <benc_> the number of players connected really doesnt seem to go cpu crazy
19:50:52 <benc_> ah, didn't know that. thanks
19:51:23 <Rubidium> it's the largest (pre 0.5) OTTD network savegame I've ever seen
19:51:47 <benc_> i'm missing out, will have to grab that
19:52:02 <alex_> i need to test this server :)
19:52:11 <alex_> dual core e6600 - 2gb ram
19:58:30 *** Ammller is now known as Ammler
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20:13:24 <alex_> whats the cfg setting to change size of map???
20:13:37 <Rubidium> map_x & map_y or something like that
20:13:42 <EQYNoX> the extra dynatme patch under constrction ist this working in the current nighlys ?
20:14:13 <Rubidium> alex_: they are powers of two, so 8 => 2^8 = 256
20:14:55 <EQYNoX> and i have herad something about extra zoom levels how can i use this ?
20:15:18 <Rubidium> EQYNoX: it works here
20:15:37 <Rubidium> and there are only a few extra zoom-out levels
20:16:19 <EQYNoX> usally there are 3 zoom levels , is there an options for more ?
20:16:51 <alex_> . /usr/games/openttd -D -c openttd2.cfg
20:17:09 <alex_> my -c flag isnt working, do i have to set the path too the cfg file ?
20:17:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10470 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Fix: clamp station build date to 16 bit value for newgrf, preventing overflow and incorrect graphics shown past a certain date.
20:17:35 <EQYNoX> Rubidium: maybe one of the grf packs breaks the extra dynamite ?
20:18:31 <EQYNoX> hm well i have to admit that i`m useing Integrated Version 2.4-10462 [07/07/2007]
20:19:10 <Rubidium> well, that's something for Chris82
20:19:42 <EQYNoX> or i do something wrong with the demolishen tool ?
20:19:51 <alex_> i have just setup a second server
20:19:57 <alex_> and now BOTH dont show up on the list
20:20:21 <alex_> both say they are advertised
20:22:32 <Rubidium> they are on the list
20:22:57 <EQYNoX> is it possible to open the cheat menu in a multiplayer mode ?
20:23:12 <alex_> Rubidium: you can see alex server miniworld?
20:23:51 <EQYNoX> i dont want to use this for cheating realy , everybody who is on the server agree with this
20:24:18 <EQYNoX> maybe an startup option on the server ?
20:24:29 <EQYNoX> or a console command ?
20:26:01 <Rubidium> alex_: it's [alex server - miniworld] though
20:26:02 <EQYNoX> okay , change the question , is it possilbe to raise the startup money/ credit amount on server games ?
20:26:35 <Rubidium> EQYNoX: not beyond 500 000 pounds IIRC
20:27:52 <alex_> Rubidium: can you check agian for me please :)
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20:27:55 <peter1138> bah, bloody fireforx :/
20:28:05 <alex_> Rubidium: should see two servers
20:29:08 <alex_> Rubidium: now why the crap can i see it in my openttd
20:29:39 <Rubidium> because your router has trouble routing the IP traffic back into the network
20:30:08 <EQYNoX> okay thanks for the answers
20:30:11 <alex_> i can connect to my other one fine
20:30:17 <alex_> but thats one default port
20:30:35 <alex_> hmmmmm any way i can direct connect? :P
20:30:48 <Rubidium> because you basically connect to your router which has to forward it to the server, but because you connect from the intranetwork it doesn't do the forwarding back into the intranet
20:31:04 <Rubidium> alex_: add server, local IP address:port of the server
20:31:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10471 /trunk/src/ (21 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: implement driver probing priority so that 'preferred' drivers are loaded first
20:33:35 <alex_> Rubidium: thanks agian!
20:40:21 <Digitalfox> With so many commits, like features, code changes and bug fixes, 0.6 is going to be huge for people palying with 0.5.* :\
20:41:22 <Rubidium> Digitalfox: 0.4 -> 0.5 was pretty huge too
20:42:12 <peter1138> 0.5 had nothing new!
20:42:17 <peter1138> not even more smoke ;(
20:43:42 <Digitalfox> And with 32bpp in 0.6, i truly don't know what you guys will come next for 0.7, i mean almost everything people needed/wanted is in 0.6..
20:44:23 <Digitalfox> Even newgrf support is now in 0.6 is huge :\
20:45:50 <caladan> what about data files for OpenTTD? it isnt going to be done in 0.6.0
20:46:08 <caladan> there's still much to do :-)
20:46:10 <Digitalfox> don't thik so caladan
20:46:33 <Digitalfox> until someone draws a complete replacement for ttd graphics, i don't think we will ever see that
20:46:42 <Digitalfox> and that is a huge task
20:47:00 <Digitalfox> who knows if brick land isn't a start ;)
20:47:20 <alex_> im setting the map to be very flat
20:47:26 <alex_> in my dedicated server cfg file
20:47:33 <alex_> but there is still a fucking huge hill in it
20:48:29 <colle> silent hill? beware of the pyramid head. :(
20:49:14 <alex_> se_flat_world_height = 1
20:50:25 <hylje> peter1138: implement autosignal logic to track upgrading? :(
20:50:47 <hylje> the big magical demolisher is convenient but could see a track-following viral way of doing it
20:50:49 <peter1138> i have thought about it
20:53:03 <hylje> now you got community support for it
20:53:51 <alex_> is there a cfg option to set minimum amount of cities?
20:54:01 <alex_> im trying to create a miniworld
20:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> alex_: make a scenario in a local game, and load that in the server
21:14:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10472 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r10741): typos prevented compilation
21:19:15 <peter1138> on parts i can't test :p
21:27:04 <alex_> is there a cfg setting on the amount of trees that the dedicated server uses?
21:27:15 <alex_> as in the amount that gets generated
21:29:03 <alex_> is that a setting in the cfg?
21:29:15 <Rubidium> no, it's probably tree_placer
21:29:46 <Rubidium> I think 0 is none, 1 is "old", 2 is "new"
21:30:13 <hylje> what? who could possibly want a "none" map?
21:34:15 <alex_> i cant set the maximum loan about 300k?
21:35:21 <Rubidium> 500 000 pounds is max, 100 000 is minimum
21:36:35 <Rubidium> *but* don't forget to set diff_level to 3
21:36:42 <Rubidium> otherwise it'll be overwritten
21:39:23 <alex_> lol i created a 2,048 x 2,048 server with max industries and max towns
21:40:21 <Phazorx> i wonder how manu is unzipped and if you have a tree on every tile
21:40:44 <Rubidium> trees don't grow the savegame that much
21:40:48 <Rubidium> towns and industries do
21:43:08 <Phazorx> Rubidium: i notcied a lot of difference between blank map and blank map with trees
21:43:26 <Phazorx> on 512x512 w/o changing anything it jumped like 5 times
21:44:16 <Phazorx> yes... so trees even sparesely will affect compression
21:44:21 <Phazorx> in same way as towns would
21:44:33 <Phazorx> uncompressed map might not differ that much tho
21:44:34 <peter1138> 2MB without compression, so :P
21:44:35 <Rubidium> but a unzipped map with or without trees is the same size.
21:44:54 <Phazorx> Rubidium: i figure that... but comrpession takes a lot of overhead
21:45:31 <Phazorx> so flat map with no stuff compresses nicely
21:46:05 <Phazorx> i wonder if compression can be optimized
21:46:19 <peter1138> you can set the compression level somewhere
21:46:23 <Phazorx> such as separating data onto layers and dealing with them independantly
21:46:26 <Rubidium> in that case a 64x64 map should be almost the same size as a 2048x2048 map
21:46:30 <Phazorx> peter1138: that's not what i meant
21:46:38 <Phazorx> gz is not smart enough
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21:47:54 <peter1138> well you could bzip2
21:47:56 <Phazorx> i ithnk just be separating towns, industries, decor and landscape you can save quite a bit on more plain data
21:48:15 <Phazorx> peter1138: still, the idea is to use most advanced compression applied in most usefull way
21:48:18 <peter1138> what do you mean "separating" ?
21:49:02 <Phazorx> peter1138: tile data, such as type of it is probably different by length and structure from town/industries
21:49:14 <Phazorx> actualy i could be quite wrong on that one i simply dont know
21:49:52 <Phazorx> but if i were making it - towns would be less geometrical and mroe data while landscape is purely geometrical
21:49:54 <Rubidium> Phazorx: go read the source code regarding to saving/loading of the map and other structures, then try to tell us how you want ot improve it
21:50:32 <Rubidium> because splitting the tiles into groups for each tile type is going to be much larger than smaller
21:50:50 <Sacro> save the map as an md5 string
21:50:53 <Phazorx> Rubidium: i'll do that... however ferasibility of that can be scoped right away if you can tell me how much town data differes from tree by size and structure
21:51:20 <peter1138> trees are stored only the map
21:51:49 <Rubidium> adding 4 bytes of random data (tileindex) for each tile to save isn't going to make it smaller when you can shave less than 4 bytes from the smallest tile types
21:51:55 <peter1138> towns have 1048 bytes per town
21:52:18 <peter1138> (not all of which is necessarily saved)
21:53:08 <Phazorx> Rubidium: i didnt get that part
21:53:30 <Phazorx> i meant only segregating information ratehr than adding category to evey tile
21:53:47 <peter1138> segregating what information?
21:53:52 <Phazorx> like a "save" would do a scan first, group data then save
21:53:59 <alex_> i cant seem to reduce my max loan
21:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there exists a universal (ultimate) compression, it is just not computable :)
21:54:22 <Rubidium> Phazorx: grouping what data?
21:54:45 <Rubidium> I can't see anything that would yield better compressability when grouped
21:54:49 <Phazorx> peter1138: town data grouped together for example, if they have similar structurem being solidified as one piece will compress better
21:55:06 <alex_> diff_custom = 2,2,1,3,300,2,0,2,0,1,2,0,1,0,0,0,0,0
21:55:17 <alex_> i could make diff_level = 2? or 3?
21:55:23 <Phazorx> tress separated from landscape... say there are 16 types of trees possible - 4 bits per tile mask
21:55:28 <alex_> and then diff_custom = 2,2,1,3,200,2,0,2,0,1,2,0,1,0,0,0,0,0 rihgt?
21:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> alex_: diff_level=3 is a must
21:55:41 <alex_> when i set diff_level to 3 it goes back to 0
21:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise diff_custom is ignored
21:55:51 <Phazorx> trees data will have some patter to it
21:56:08 <peter1138> Phazorx: i suggest you read up on how the data is saved before you go any furthor
21:56:11 <Phazorx> since it is grown... pehaps compression which is wavelet's aware will take advatange of that
21:56:11 <alex_> ok so i set diff_level to 3
21:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> alex_: do not edit the .cfg while openttd is running
21:57:06 <Phazorx> peter1138: as i mention i'll do that .... but just from sheer data structuring concept - you must have geometrical data, based on X/Y and refrecned data associtaed with some tile
21:57:22 <Phazorx> be that towns or industries, vehicles or stations
21:57:27 <Rubidium> Phazorx: READ THE CODE FIRST!
21:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: suggestion, take a few uncompressed savegames, and try to compress it with various methods, then compare results
21:58:39 <Rubidium> it's really annoying when people tell you it can be made *much* smaller when they do not even have a clue how it is saved
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22:22:25 <alex_> what would be some popular settings?
22:22:35 <alex_> for mapsize, vech breakdowns etc..
22:24:26 <glx> depends on the wanted difficulty
22:25:06 <glx> breakdowns on and hilly landscape can be quite hard to play but some people like that
22:26:02 <valhallasw> most people have breakdowns off however
22:26:27 <valhallasw> but all other settings... nothing to say about them really
22:26:31 <glx> yeah breakdowns are anoying :)
22:26:32 <valhallasw> except everyone hates toyland ;)
22:26:41 <alex_> yeah i hate toyland too
22:30:43 <alex_> whats the highest interest rate you can sit?
22:32:25 <elmz> probably changed since my version or something ^^
22:33:11 <elmz> is there a recent nightly that doesnt crash all too much?
22:33:16 * peter1138 has the greatest idea ever
22:33:24 *** lolman__ has joined #openttd
22:35:03 <SmatZ> a spambot ... computer infected with some kind of malicious software (Min464)
22:36:03 <SmatZ> peter1138: what is youe great idea?
22:36:18 <valhallasw> in the old days people would code it in mirc :')
22:37:15 <SmatZ> maybe mirc doesn't have any more flaws...
22:38:39 <SmatZ> peter1138: yes, it is a great idea :) good night then
22:41:18 *** lolman__ is now known as lolman
22:41:26 <alex_> that im going to work on
22:42:03 <elmz> well, back to my question about ightlies ^^
22:42:04 <alex_> im going to create a website which acts as a portal for users to create openttd games that i host for em
22:42:35 <elmz> one where I actually might play a game for some time? :)
22:42:40 <Sacro> is there a reddish blue?
22:42:48 <Sacro> or am i after a blueish red
22:44:05 <glx> nightlies are as stable as they can :)
22:44:32 <elmz> I'll stick to my old version then ^^
22:50:07 <alex_> any reasons my trains feel like they are going fucknig slow on my server?
22:50:56 <alex_> like i think my time passing slowly on my server
22:51:03 <alex_> what setting would speed that up?
22:52:00 <glx> map size can slowdown things
22:52:47 <alex_> nah eve nthe players are saying it
22:52:53 <alex_> the trains are really slow
22:52:56 <alex_> its not a hardware issue
22:57:31 <iPandaMojo> Serving off a debug build maybe?
22:58:02 <alex_> there is no time setting?
22:58:08 <alex_> im hunting through my cfg atm
22:58:16 <alex_> iPandaMojo, come check out my server im on
22:58:21 <Rubidium> alex_: why can't it be a hardware issue?
22:58:23 <alex_> [alex test server: medium]
22:58:30 <alex_> cause im only at 2% cpu
22:58:37 <alex_> Rubidium: come jump on my server for 5mins
22:59:15 <iPandaMojo> I'd have to update :3
22:59:15 <Rubidium> but... your OTTD doesn't do stockpiling ;(
23:04:34 <Sacro> while(again != 'n' && again != 'N')
23:04:38 <Sacro> will that ever be true?
23:05:20 <Sacro> this book wasn't proofread very well
23:05:25 <Rubidium> Sacro: it could be true
23:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: try again = 'x'
23:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: it ignores all answers except 'n' and 'N'
23:06:42 <Sacro> Rubidium: what a horrible font... and ZOMG NEWINDUSTRIES
23:06:58 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: shouldn't it be ||
23:07:18 <Rubidium> Sacro: if you wanted it to be while (true)
23:07:32 <Sacro> Rubidium: which is an infinte loop
23:07:43 <glx> <Sacro> != <-- you started to use your brain :)
23:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i always use while(true) and if (exit condition) break; if i do interactive structures
23:09:20 <alex_> whats cfg command for realistic accel?
23:09:57 <Eddi|zuHause> alex_: there's a list patches command
23:10:42 <Sacro> glx: i'm trying to get my head around referencing, pointers, inheritence and polymorphism
23:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i do not like the thin font...
23:11:20 <iPandaMojo> Rubidium: Is that screenshot w/ FreeType?
23:11:30 <alex_> iPandaMojo: its backup :)
23:11:35 <alex_> iPandaMojo: come maxout my server
23:11:57 <Rubidium> iPandaMojo: yes it's freetype
23:12:03 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that's your problem ;)
23:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i have a suggestion, in the timetable window, for the active order say "Travel for 14 days (current time 22 days)"
23:13:20 <Sacro> actually, i have a request
23:13:39 <Sacro> so that say i have a timetable, thats 27 days
23:13:50 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: who said the delay was made during the last travel?
23:13:53 <Sacro> i can set one to run at 0 days late, one at 7 days late and one at 14 days late
23:13:57 <Sacro> and keep them seperated
23:14:32 <Sacro> i could put the offset to 28, and have another running 21 days late, and make it look like i know what 7*4 is
23:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, nobody... you could split that up between orders, or not
23:15:32 <Rubidium> it's just that it went into a depot at some time
23:15:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but it is definitely missing an indicator what the current order is
23:16:08 <Rubidium> the timetable is made in such a manner that it can catch up fairly quickly
23:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. when you have several items going to the same station in a rotational schedule (like A-B-A-C-A-D)
23:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't see which of the "goto A" is currently active
23:28:53 <Sacro> it compiles nicely, but i get a shedload of linker errors
23:32:53 <Sacro> adding some missing code helped
23:33:00 <Sacro> funny how it compiled without it ;\
23:35:13 <alex_> iPandaMojo: anything else an issue? i could make breakdowns less :)
23:36:10 <iPandaMojo> not that I noticed
23:36:37 <iPandaMojo> I don't play online too much, and I just finished up a 1500mi road trip
23:36:47 <iPandaMojo> So I'm a bit distracted to be playing right now especially
23:37:48 <iPandaMojo> moving-with-all-my-shit-crammed-into-the-van-I'm-sleeping-in roadtrip
23:38:19 <iPandaMojo> My left hand is all sunburned too
23:39:24 <iPandaMojo> San Diego, CA ---> Seattle, WA
23:39:45 <iPandaMojo> Normally that's only a 1200mi drive I think
23:39:54 <iPandaMojo> but I accidentally took a detour or 15
23:40:01 <Rubidium> that's not even from coast to coast ;)
23:40:07 <iPandaMojo> Because, being a real man (tm), I don't even look at the map
23:40:17 <iPandaMojo> Rubidium: Yeah, but I did it in only 2 days
23:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that would be more like 3000mi?
23:40:27 <iPandaMojo> And I started out at the beginning of a heat wave
23:40:44 <iPandaMojo> I've done coast-to-coast drives
23:41:21 <iPandaMojo> but I didn't want to leave my flat screen monitors and such in the van to get stolen, without sleeping in said van to keep an eye on them
23:41:43 <iPandaMojo> And it took a good hour at least to get everything to fit in the van
23:42:01 <iPandaMojo> I couldn't see anything in my rear view mirror, too much junk piled up
23:42:15 <alex_> mvoed it all in one trip?
23:42:21 <sartsj> would be nice if openttd also saved company passwords in multiplayer games
23:42:22 <Ailure> the miniium cargo thing
23:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i was in a fully packed van was when we made a paddle tour in france
23:42:40 <Ailure> wait, so all stations suddenly were always full or what+ \\
23:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> 6 people + 4 boats + clothes
23:42:57 <iPandaMojo> I should note that this was a crappy 4-cylindar minivan too
23:43:35 <iPandaMojo> I want to get a good van sometime
23:43:40 <Rubidium> oh, and it's in the USA so it has automatic gears
23:43:51 <Rubidium> poor van when it needed to go up the hills
23:44:18 <iPandaMojo> It's fun to barely mantain speed @ 70mph while flooring it uphill
23:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> we bought it right after they opened the border in 1989, it was almost a year old, from a distant relative who works in the factory in wolfsburg
23:44:51 <Rubidium> I've been in the USA and we had a rental car, that car was constantly changing gears (like at 54 and 56 mph)
23:45:09 <Eddi|zuHause> we finally sold it last year ;)
23:45:21 <Rubidium> when going up a hill
23:45:37 <iPandaMojo> Yeah, mine tends to do that too
23:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 2006-1988=18 years old
23:45:54 <iPandaMojo> Mine's only like 10
23:46:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never driven an automatic car
23:46:27 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
23:47:12 <sartsj> is it possible to change game options in savegames?
23:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause> they probably sold it to a 3rd world country where it will run another 20 years :)
23:47:41 <glx> sartsj: everything is possible, but it's not easy
23:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> sartsj: yes, load the savegame, edit options, save again :)
23:49:02 <glx> else the AI will mess things ;)
23:49:26 <sartsj> i could pause it and then save it when in multiplayer
23:49:35 <sartsj> itll be paused when i load it right?
23:49:49 <Eddi|zuHause> gnah, don't you love it when an 8MB program update carries 200MB dependencies?
23:50:00 <sartsj> can i pause and save from the console?
23:51:11 <glx> not in openttd console :)
23:51:23 <sartsj> i meant from linux console
23:51:41 <sartsj> i have it saved in a screen anyway
23:51:58 <Sacro> glx: it needs vi commands
23:52:23 <glx> Sacro: code it and post a patch :)
23:52:32 <glx> maybe it will be included ;)
23:52:38 <sartsj> what needs vi commands?
23:53:07 <Sacro> oops, rested elbow on numpad
23:53:17 <sartsj> some people actually dont like vi you know
23:53:31 <Rubidium> for them there's vim
23:54:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i have heard tales of emacs users:)
23:54:54 <Sacro> eight megs and constantly swapping...
23:54:55 <glx> but only when I haven't an X session
23:55:00 <sartsj> i'm not afraid of looking like an idiot, i actually use pico ;p
23:55:12 * Eddi|zuHause adds another tale :)
23:55:29 <sartsj> all these years, and i've never wanted a different editor
23:55:51 <sartsj> funny thing is, i've never used pine
23:55:58 <sartsj> i always installed that package just for pico :D
23:57:09 <Sacro> i can lose the net, rmmod, modprobe, and reconnect
23:57:25 <sartsj> hmm, i saved it after i paused it on my server, but it didnt load in single player while paused
23:57:39 <glx> yeah sometimes my modem reboot and I'm still on irc
23:57:54 <Sacro> glx: yes, but you will ping out
23:58:21 <glx> I just notice an increased lag
23:58:54 <Sacro> well i've caught up again now i think
continue to next day ⏵
