IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-06-27
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00:40:03 <Smoovious> does RandomRange() return a result starting at 0, or 1?
00:41:36 <glx> GB(Random(), 0, 16) * max >> 16
00:41:40 <Smoovious> like, would RandomRange(3) return results of 1|2|3, 0|1|2, or 0|1|2|3
00:42:50 <Smoovious> 0|1|2 then? or 0|1|2|3?
00:47:39 <glx> anyway most random functions return values between 0 and max-1
00:48:09 <Smoovious> ok... that's what I'm used to from another language, but ya never know...
00:48:16 <Smoovious> been bit by that before :D
01:01:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r10351 /branches/noai/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: [NoAI] -Fix r10350: forgot to update regression.txt (indeed GetCompanyName() and GetPresidentName() were half-broken before r10350)
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06:44:29 <Chris82> I have fixed the cost estimation always 0 bug with the diagonal patch
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06:44:36 <Chris82> but there is still a bug which is also in trunk
06:44:52 <Chris82> the cost estimation is too high (happens with my patch, but it also happens in trunk)
06:45:13 <Chris82> I don't know exactly how this happens since that bit of code is very rarely commented anywhere
06:46:13 <Chris82> cost estimation for demolishing is correct, but for levelling a too high value is displayed
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07:33:28 <blathijs> hylje: Any clue as to the cause? Doing anything special? Does the autosave reproduce it?
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07:38:13 <Smoovious> Chris82... are you still doing INs?
07:38:32 <Chris82> as you can see above yes :)
07:38:52 <Smoovious> sorry, didn't know that was what you were discussing
07:39:21 <Chris82> np :) I just updated the thread a minute ago with some fixes and code from the latest trunk
07:39:36 <Smoovious> would you mind giving my FS#532 patch a try? finished getting it current to r10349 this evening
07:43:15 <peter1138> hylje: r10349 might fix it, but that's a wild stab in the dark
07:43:31 <Chris82> oh that's a very nice idea :) this should be in trunk smoovious
07:43:40 <Chris82> it always annoys me on my servers that chat messages are gone so quicly
07:43:50 <hylje> oo, timetables work rather automagically
07:44:10 <Smoovious> I spent the past 5 days, incrementally getting it up to date...
07:45:35 <Smoovious> now I'm restarting my bring_back_mail_subsidies patch from scratch, cuz getting my previous patch current would take a lot more work than just starting o ver
07:45:46 <peter1138> + SDT_VAR(Patches, chat_text_visible, SLE_UINT16,S,NC, 60,10,900,10, STR_CONFIG_PATCHES_CHAT_TEXT_VISIBLE, NULL),
07:45:54 <peter1138> chat_text_duration would make more sense?
07:45:58 <Smoovious> I'm almost done, but something isn't working right
07:46:35 <Chris82> also I make absolutely every patch I add CONDVAR that highly reduces savegame problems
07:46:49 <Chris82> even when using Flag S I often get savegame problems otherwise
07:46:52 <Smoovious> yeah... I can make that change later... once I finish thtis one
07:47:17 <peter1138> this doesn't need CONDVAR
07:47:30 <peter1138> as it is all client side, in theory
07:47:30 <Smoovious> well, I haven't done a patch yet that directly affects savegames... only c onfig settings
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07:51:41 <dihedral> Rubidium: SirkoZ sends greetings and says you're a king
07:52:54 <Smoovious> peter1138... can I nest "? :"'s? like...: value = ( boolean ? ( x>4 ? yes : no ) : ( y>4 ? yes : no ) ); ???
07:53:49 <Smoovious> that equasion is totally stupid, but the syntax is what I am asking about
07:56:15 <Rubidium> Chris82: the problem is that you can't properly estimate the cost of leveling without actually doing it, so overestimating is the best to do so you won't get a negative balance after leveling
07:56:39 <Chris82> thanks for the info :)
07:57:04 <Chris82> I have fixed all the bugs in diagonal levelling/terraform now :)
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07:57:27 <dihedral> Chris82: well done :-)
07:57:44 <dihedral> perhaps that would make it interesting for trunk - no?
07:57:55 <Rubidium> hylje: what revision of trunk?
07:58:10 <Chris82> nah there are patches used that are working but the code looks ugly if you know what I mean
07:58:27 <dihedral> yeah - know what you mean :-P
07:58:46 <Rubidium> hylje: then I suspect YAPF
07:58:47 <dihedral> Chris82: you could tidy up the code
07:59:07 <Chris82> I removed and changed a lot of stuff already, but I am no coding style guru myself :D
07:59:13 <dihedral> Chris82: or perhaps TrueBrain would do that once he is back :-P
07:59:20 <Chris82> also I am busy with uni stuff right now, so improvements have to wait till afternoon
07:59:34 <Rubidium> hylje: and I hope it is fixed in the next nightly
07:59:56 <dihedral> Chris82: you have an svn repository for the work you do?
08:00:01 <hylje> Rubidium: well see to it
08:00:29 <Chris82> I download trunk with TortoiseSVN and have a few local repositories from which I make my .diff files
08:01:07 <Chris82> is that what you meant?
08:01:38 <Chris82> hmmm I hate limes functions
08:02:10 <Chris82> when I have x^4 / something smaller for x -> infinity, can I say the function goes towards infinity?
08:02:30 <guru3_> tends towards to infinity
08:02:35 <oxygene_> well, simple math ;)
08:02:54 <Rubidium> question is: are the "repositories" just checkouts of trunk, or do you have your own version management system behind those "repositories"
08:02:59 <Chris82> x^4 is obviously bigger than (x^2 - 1) |x| but the problem is I may not think so easily
08:03:07 <Chris82> we had some weird e^xxx limes instead
08:03:43 <oxygene_> i guess math is kind of offtopic here =)
08:03:44 <Chris82> Rubidium: I have no version management system, I only have a trunk checkout which I edit and update with trunk updates
08:03:59 <Chris82> lol yeah :p but I have to do some math exercices for uni right now :D
08:04:39 <oxygene_> i have my final exam friday, so i should stop chatting and start doing something for it ;)
08:05:04 <dihedral> oxygene_: dont bust a final
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08:09:14 <peter1138> Smoovious: "/me > off" means i'm not here :p
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08:13:09 <|Gekkko|> look who the cat dragged in
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08:14:36 <Manslay> why ottd shows negative profit for trains which transfer transit goods?
08:15:43 <dihedral> Manslay: searched the forums?
08:16:11 <Manslay> just played the game :/
08:16:23 <Manslay> i'm browsing wiki atm
08:19:25 * dihedral has another 8 hours at work
08:19:30 <Ev> peter1138: ...but with there was no duplication
08:19:35 * dihedral is in need of sympathy
08:20:36 <Ev> no triple duplication of code
08:20:55 <peter1138> you want it duplicated?
08:21:23 <Ev> i want it be not duplicated
08:21:25 <peter1138> you have redundant checks for IsTileDepot() and is_new_steep
08:21:47 <Ev> sorry :) but with marcos there was no duplication
08:22:06 <peter1138> macros will NOT be accepted
08:22:24 <peter1138> the duplication was hidden in the macro
08:23:48 <Gekkko> dihedral: get a second job
08:24:00 <peter1138> Ev: try fixing the code instead of just rolling out the macros
08:24:12 <peter1138> also note that removing macros could well mean adding functions
08:24:29 <Ev> C/C++ does not support local functions
08:24:50 <Ev> and functions make code more complex then macros
08:25:06 <peter1138> le) == TRACK_BIT_LEFT ) || ( GetTrackBits(tile) == TRACK_BIT_UPPER ) || ( GetTrackBits(tile) == TRACK_BIT_RIGHT )
08:25:11 <oxygene_> macros are not typesafe and a PITA to debug
08:25:29 <peter1138> that's all over the place
08:26:26 <oxygene_> imho needing macros indicated a flaw in the whole design. one should fix the design instead of trying to hide the flaws by using macros
08:26:33 <oxygene_> but then again, i'm not a dev here
08:27:01 <peter1138> oxygene_: you don't need to be a dev to be sensible ;)
08:27:22 <oxygene_> i don't know what the "official" consensus here is
08:27:47 <dihedral> Gekkko: why should i get a second job?
08:28:30 <Gekkko> "it will give you something to do"
08:28:34 <Gekkko> "and stop you annoying me"
08:28:37 <Gekkko> remind you of someone?
08:28:45 <dihedral> Gekkko: yeah right - me & lazy !
08:30:54 <Ev> macro removes code duplication that functions can not solve
08:31:11 <Ev> and it does not make debugging harder
08:32:02 <Maedhros> it doesn't remove any duplication at all, it just hides it
08:32:08 <oxygene_> this is not true in my opinion. you can remove code duplication with functions too
08:32:14 <Maedhros> and macros don't show up in backtraces, for example
08:32:17 <oxygene_> if you think you can't, then your design is bad
08:32:27 <Ev> it "hides" duplication as "functions" hides
08:32:59 <Maedhros> no, functions (unless the compiler inlines them) only appear once in the compiled code
08:33:32 <oxygene_> yes, and functions have the advantage of being typesafe, come up in backtraces etc.
08:33:38 <oxygene_> so no advantage for macros here
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08:34:19 <Ev> functions have redundacy of typesafing and arguments
08:34:30 <Ev> you can not solve this at all
08:34:42 <oxygene_> well, you can just code everything in main()
08:34:49 <oxygene_> this removes al redundancy
08:35:48 <Maedhros> and makes writing the program in C(++) pretty much pointless :)
08:36:09 <oxygene_> macros that work an variable names are the worst
08:36:21 <hylje> OO supposedly work to reduce redundancy
08:36:24 <oxygene_> refactoring such code is a pain
08:46:24 <Ev> i dont see again with what are you going to replace marcos besides saying that "it is flaw in design"
08:47:27 <oxygene_> with functions? with oo design?
08:47:57 <Ev> it can not be replaced with functions
08:48:04 <oxygene_> i just can't think of an example where macros would be _needed_
08:48:37 <oxygene_> that is what functions and classes are for
08:49:08 <Ev> marcos _are not_ function, hence it can not be replaced with it )))
08:49:26 <oxygene_> right, they are not functions
08:49:58 <oxygene_> but if your code is not clear without macros, you should refactor it instead of "fixing" it by adding macros
08:50:14 <oxygene_> i don't see any advantage of macros above functions
08:50:28 <peter1138> macros do have their uses, but not here.
08:51:15 <oxygene_> yup, like DEBUG-macros are useful for example
08:51:43 <Ev> macros does not needs any arguments what does not change, it is the advantage if use it as function
08:52:07 <Ev> and argument is _anything_, not just a variable
08:52:53 <oxygene_> but when they do not take arguments but modify variables for example, they hide things and someone who is not familiar with it doesn't see this modification
08:53:14 <oxygene_> if you call a function with &variable you just see that it might be modified by the function call
08:53:43 <oxygene_> or when you rename a variable you get strange errors, because a macro assumes another variable name
08:53:46 <Ev> guess it does not modify it, only use
08:54:02 <oxygene_> source code needs to be verbose
08:55:13 <peter1138> looks like we will not convince Ev
08:55:20 <peter1138> but also we will not accept those macros
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08:56:19 <Ev> i wont fix it as principle ))
08:56:23 <oxygene_> arguments are never a problem. if you have too much of them, wrap'em in a struct/class and suddenly you have just one argument
08:57:57 <Ev> you can not wrap some into struct if they of different kind, it may mix of any kind )
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08:59:10 <Chris82> SDT_CONDVAR(Patches, finance_history, SLE_UINT8, IN_CHRISIN_SINCE(70), SL_MAX_VERSION, S, 0, 3, 3, MAX_HISTORY, 1, STR_CONFIG_PATCHES_FINANCE_HISTORY, NULL),
08:59:10 <Chris82> SLE_CONDARR(Player, yearly_expenses, SLE_INT64, MAX_HISTORY * 13, IN_CHRISIN_SINCE(70), SL_MAX_VERSION),
08:59:16 <Chris82> I have these two patch lines
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08:59:25 <oxygene__> stupid internet connection
08:59:33 <Chris82> it should not be necessary that this patch is made COND as it uses flag S
08:59:33 <oxygene__> if you've said something, i've missed it
09:00:06 <Chris82> when I make it non-COND no savegame will load though with obscure errors like too many EngineRenews or Gamma Error or whatever
09:00:58 <Maedhros> yearly_expenses at least has to be saved
09:01:23 <Chris82> ah ok so the patch does indeed store something in the savegame?
09:01:25 <peter1138> finance history doesn't, as long as yearly_expenses is not dependent on it
09:01:31 <Chris82> then flag S was misleading my thoughts
09:01:55 <Chris82> those lines are from the same patch so they are "connected"
09:02:37 <dihedral> Chris82: what patch is it?
09:02:39 <Chris82> I was wondering why the patch uses flag S anyway because the author says the patch stores the history for up to 30 years in the savegame
09:03:26 <Chris82> I had removed it from my IN first due to savegame problems which I fixed now through making both these patch options COND
09:03:53 <Chris82> but I've been told several times already that a patch with flag S should not need to be COND
09:04:23 <peter1138> yes. that assumes the original author got it right :)
09:04:28 <Chris82> when I make only the Array COND and not the Patch VAR I get errors
09:05:17 <Chris82> I think the problem is that only the value how long of a finance history you want is not saved, but the history itself is indeed saved
09:05:24 <peter1138> maybe them both COND and remove the S
09:05:58 <Chris82> which flag should I use instead of S ? 0 is wrong, since it's no server option
09:06:08 <Chris82> and I tried N which made my game crash lol :D
09:07:00 <Chris82> let me quickly try something
09:11:30 <Chris82> I can make the patch option itself VAR but the other part must be CONDARR because it's stored
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09:15:18 <Chris82> Smoovious are you there?
09:15:59 <peter1138> if finance_history is not saved, then you need to make sure that yearly_expenses is always the same size
09:16:54 <Chris82> SLE_INT64, MAX_HISTORY * 13, < MAX_HISTORY * 13 is the size?
09:17:57 <Chris82> so no matter if I set the history to 1 or 30 there's always 30 * 13 saved only not everything is displayed
09:18:25 <peter1138> that's good then :)
09:20:38 <Chris82> I especially like the idea of chat text duration being seconds and not game days, integrates nicely with daypatch then :D
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09:22:49 <Chris82> I renamed visible to duration in your diff file btw
09:22:53 <Smoovious> I'll be posting an edit of it by tomorrow
09:23:38 <Smoovious> just changing the name that peter1138 didn't like :P
09:24:02 <peter1138> ah, is that the mode where it only shadows up to the end of the line?
09:24:14 <Smoovious> the shadow is the same length as the individual lines
09:24:21 <Smoovious> not the full widtht of the chat box
09:25:14 <Chris82> I think I put it in my next IN :) I really like this patch and I don't think there should be any complications with it
09:25:20 <peter1138> ///< added in r10254 by TrueLight
09:25:32 <Smoovious> yeah... I dunno what they were for. :)
09:25:47 <peter1138> don't bother commenting them then :)
09:25:58 <Smoovious> one of my conflict-resolution builds had them missing cuz I didn't notice they were different when I resolved the conflict
09:26:00 <peter1138> the history will show it as him
09:26:40 <Smoovious> well, I think that was more for me... planned on replacing them once I found out what their function was
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09:27:05 <Chris82> time_t is a data type in C ?
09:27:10 <Smoovious> could probably change <time.h> to a "time.h" but I have no experience with custom files
09:27:28 <Smoovious> it has to be... I found it in the manual pages
09:27:39 <peter1138> you can use _realtime_tick now
09:27:53 <peter1138> it is in milliseconds, i believe
09:28:33 <Maedhros> Chris82: it's not a native type like int, but it's part of the C specification, i think
09:28:57 <Smoovious> it came with vc2005
09:30:14 <Chris82> I tend to program too much C style my tutor in Java Class said lol :D
09:30:31 <Chris82> but that's probably because I only program C in real life and no Java
09:30:39 <Smoovious> peter1138... if _realtitme_tick stops incrementing when the game is paused, then I'll probably switch to it...
09:31:10 <Chris82> well it's the language we use this semester, it's a lot better than Haskell :D what we used before
09:31:12 <peter1138> why should change messages stay on screen when it's paused?
09:31:17 <peter1138> i know they do currently, but that's a bug imho
09:31:44 <Chris82> a paused game shouldn't lead to "paused" chat
09:32:00 <Smoovious> well, because the routine that checks for old messages, doesn't run when it is paused...
09:32:32 <peter1138> that can be changed too :)
09:32:41 <Smoovious> that's why I would change it if _realtime_tick only increments when thhe game isn't paused
09:33:02 <Chris82> does anybody of you know the Better/New Graphs patch?
09:33:19 <Smoovious> so long as it isn't running 200 times per second... it isn't something that needs to be checked more often than once a second
09:33:24 <Chris82> I was wondering why some people have problems with badly redrawed graphics
09:35:49 <eekee> visuals matter to some people *shrug*
09:36:11 <Chris82> my dad just called me and asked when are you born? 2/9/1984? Which is totally wrong of course
09:36:57 <dihedral> Chris82: never mind - my dad calles by my brothers name
09:37:13 <Smoovious> visuals can get to be too much tho... if it was a choice between nice visuals, and giving some up in return for better gameplay, the visuals are out the door
09:37:50 <Maedhros> my mum and dad have been known to call me by my cat's name before...
09:39:23 <Chris82> right guess and 9/9 not 2/9
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09:40:02 <Smoovious> ok, welp... I guess nested trinaries don't work, so back to rewrite...
09:40:16 <Chris82> Smoovious: The problem with the Newgraphs patch is that especially Linux users (without DirectDraw obviously) have huge empty blocks in the lines with the graphs
09:40:41 <Chris82> on Windows XP those bugs are minimal and on Vista they are almost vanished
09:40:42 <Smoovious> never saw i t I don't think
09:40:59 <Chris82> I just try to re-add it to the code and maybe fix some stuff
09:41:11 <Chris82> but I can test with linux only at university, I don't have it on my home PC
09:41:38 <Chris82> so when the graphs look perfect on Windows it means nothing
09:43:21 <Chris82> how does Linux handle stuff that is handled by DirectDraw in Windows actually?
09:46:28 <Smoovious> welp... I'm crashing... dig back into my patches when I get up
09:52:21 <Chris82> uhm there are strings for Gold and Diamond mine in the default English file?
09:52:31 <Chris82> do they exist in non temperate landscape?
09:53:35 <Maedhros> the gold mine is an arctic industry, and diamonds are in tropic
09:54:10 * Chris82 plays too much temperate
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10:01:24 <peter1138> Chris82: all graphics code is abstracted. direct draw is only used to update dirty rectangles from the video buffer to the screen
10:01:25 <Chris82> was GetPlayerNameString replaced by something?
10:01:51 <peter1138> yes, it was spuriously named, as it got the player number string, not the name
10:01:56 <dihedral> Chris82: play some desert games - they are fun :-P
10:01:56 <peter1138> use SetDParam(0, playerindex);
10:02:09 <peter1138> or something like that
10:03:00 <Chris82> so SetDParam(2, GetPlayerNameString(p->index, 3)); will become SetDParam(2, playerindex(p->index, 3)); ?
10:03:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10352 /trunk/src/network/network_udp.cpp: -Fix: the network did not request the newgrf names of newgrfs that it couldn't find; it only wanted to request the newgrf names of newgrfs that where available locally and than were called "<Unknown>".
10:04:33 <Chris82> 'playerindex': identifier not found hmm
10:04:55 <Chris82> or should I replace the stuff in () too?
10:05:40 <peter1138> SetDParam(2, p->index);
10:06:20 <peter1138> however you've probably got p->name_1 as 0, and p->name_2 as 1
10:06:43 <peter1138> so what you probably want really is SetDParam(0, p->index); SetDParam(1, p->index);
10:07:53 <Chris82> this was the original code yeah:
10:07:53 <Chris82> SetDParam(0, p->name_1);
10:07:53 <Chris82> SetDParam(1, p->name_2);
10:07:53 <Chris82> SetDParam(2, GetPlayerNameString(p->index, 3));
10:08:25 <peter1138> replace it all with those two then
10:13:16 <Chris82> !invalid string id 0 in GetString oops
10:13:38 <Chris82> happens when the 3rd player starts
10:16:08 <Chris82> forgot a letter that didn't show a compile error :D
10:16:53 <Chris82> and the new graphs actually draw perfectly the bug that is happening is that when farm fields are painted behind the graph, the graphs becomes a little messy
10:17:08 <Chris82> but I think the improved functionality weighs more than the graph glitches
10:25:16 <Chris82> hmmm I thought industries can't go below 32 prod anymore in latest trunk?
10:25:25 <Chris82> I have a 24 prod industry tho
10:25:35 <peter1138> as it upset some stuff
10:25:53 <peter1138> like oil rigs usually have very low passenger production
10:26:27 <Chris82> but why is it that iron ore mines are by far the worst producing industries on average?
10:26:35 <Chris82> coal mines for example produce a lot more on average
10:27:19 <Chris82> it can't be luck, I had 20 games in a row like this
10:28:48 <peter1138> coal mines start out with more production, i think
10:29:46 <Ailure> coal mines tend to go into a huge production spree
10:30:05 <Chris82> yeah coal mines are always by far the best producing industries in my games
10:30:22 <Chris82> which is a little unbalanced I think because coal is already the best paid good / cargo unit
10:31:56 <Chris82> oh damn half past 12 =O gotta go
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11:06:54 <Ailure> the AI lows elevated bridges I noticed too
11:07:08 <Ailure> it somehow manage to adapt some of the new features
11:07:11 <Ailure> but in a such stupid way
11:07:37 <peter1138> that's because the old ai doesn't know it can link road pieces up to form networks
11:07:49 <peter1138> but it can build that bridge
11:07:54 <Ailure> the AI reinvents the wheel
11:08:04 <Ailure> when it comes to road networks
11:08:26 <Chris82> well I usually don't play with AI anyway, I am only testing my patched version for long time stability :D
11:08:27 <Ailure> I seen games where the whole center of a town is ruined becuse of a road-happy AI
11:09:51 <Chris82> btw on this screenshot you can see how nice the new graphs can look in Vista :p
11:10:09 <Chris82> someone else sent me a screenshot from Ubuntu where that graph looked totally distorted
11:10:18 <Gekkko> how goes "Found new town" ?
11:10:30 <Chris82> :p not implemented at the moment
11:10:41 <Chris82> I'll give it a look now
11:10:44 <Gekkko> Chris82: update it for the latest nightly at least for me
11:11:21 <Chris82> peter: What town replacement set do you use?
11:11:55 <Chris82> hmmm let me check my version of TTRS because mine looks totally different
11:12:16 <peter1138> well the colour remapping is wrong there
11:13:12 <Chris82> looks a bit like simutrans on that screenshot D
11:15:04 <Chris82> The authors are great artists and so, but I hope that OpenTTD will never look like this by default !!
11:15:20 <Chris82> it would be like making Total Annihilation a DirectX 10 game eeek
11:16:15 <Chris82> TTRS as default selt to replace graphics from the original game are great imho, this 32-bit stuff is not needed
11:16:31 <Chris82> I mean OpenTTD is no 3D Shooter for graphics freaks :D
11:16:48 <hylje> better graphics make the game easier to approach
11:16:54 <hylje> thus more potential contributors
11:17:08 <Maedhros> i don't agree with that
11:17:20 <Chris82> well but better is a way of view... imho TTRS graphics are much better than such 3D stuff
11:17:41 <Chris82> these 3D graphics look complex and complicated compared to the current graphics
11:18:20 <Chris82> I don't want to offend the authors in any way, they indeed look great and they are good artists but it's just not what I am looking forward to in OTTD
11:18:45 <hylje> you can just not mind the details, but i think details make the graphics
11:18:56 <Chris82> yeah too much 3D detail is just distracting
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11:19:18 <Chris82> I play Oblivion if I want nice graphics or something like that
11:19:25 <Chris82> in OpenTTD I want an entertaining simulation
11:19:26 <hylje> why dont you want both?
11:19:52 <Chris82> because if OpenTTD had Oblivion graphics I would sit on a hill and watch the game happening instead of making the game happen :D
11:20:06 <Chris82> I know bad comparison, but you get my point hopefully
11:20:22 <hylje> you can do that, but it doenst prevent you from doing stuff you do now
11:20:42 <Chris82> Oblivion is a look and fight game, OpenTTD is a build and think game
11:20:53 <hylje> instead of first person
11:20:57 <Chris82> yes of course it doesn't but instead of investing time in this I would use it for other stuff
11:21:19 <elmex> openttd is a point&click game :_>
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11:21:23 <peter1138> investing time is not really a good argument
11:21:36 <peter1138> the people who do the 'other stuff' aren't the people making the graphics
11:22:07 <Sacro> hmm, with timetables can trains wait at a waypoint?
11:22:23 <peter1138> hmm, oblivion is pretty
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11:22:34 <Chris82> yeah, but gameplay sucks :D
11:22:39 <Chris82> it's only nice to look at lol
11:23:02 <hylje> contary to popular belief you can have very nice graphics and very nice gameplay
11:23:03 <Chris82> the first version was so full of bugs and the whole gui looks like a console game
11:23:08 <Chris82> I don't want that on my PC
11:23:14 <Chris82> consoles are for little children :D
11:23:26 <hylje> like the nintendo consoles?
11:23:47 <Chris82> well nice graphics and nice gameplay in an example slightly comparable to OpenTTD would be Sim City 4
11:24:08 <Chris82> I really like Sim City 4 graphics so if OpenTTD would look a little like that I wouldn't mind
11:24:12 <hylje> i recall most of the people playing them and buying games for them are 20+
11:24:29 <Chris82> but half-hearted non-perfectly looking 3D graphics are no joy for my eye :D I am a perfectionist :p
11:24:31 <hylje> sc4 graphics are very detailed
11:25:07 <Chris82> Nintendo Wii is maybe nice, but look at a PS3, buying this is wasted money imho, you can get a decent PC for that price
11:25:21 <Sacro> yes, but consoles are the future D:
11:25:28 <Chris82> yeah SC4 is a cool game
11:25:29 <Sacro> everyone seems up on this "HD" idea
11:25:45 <Chris82> well I'd prefer a laptop that has the power of my PC to a console
11:25:52 <Sacro> but i've had 1024x768 for... 11ish years
11:25:53 <Chris82> consoles are too expensive for what they can do
11:26:21 <peter1138> last item in the super savers section
11:26:27 <Sacro> i might buy that wifi card
11:26:28 <hylje> Sacro: ive been enjoying 1600x1200 for some years now
11:26:47 <Sacro> i got a 19" tft back in 2002
11:26:56 <Sacro> though i'm down to 1280x1024 now :(
11:27:08 <Sacro> hylje: 1280p would be nice
11:27:13 <Chris82> hylje: I agree with you especially in the TV sector
11:27:15 <Sacro> but anything less doesn't interest me
11:27:23 <hylje> in the so-called console wars nintendo got it, everyone else just done past generation next generation
11:27:23 <Chris82> I mean who of us can afford a good 1080p LCD TV :D
11:27:39 <hylje> a good 1080p capable display is about 700+
11:27:55 <Chris82> 4096p ? what's that lol
11:28:17 <hylje> Chris82: movies are filmed at that IIRC
11:28:22 <Sacro> Nissan Skyline GTR R34 VSpec Super Car T reg 1999 - 420BHP MINT! + Many Extra's - see specs - Limited Stock!
11:28:36 <Chris82> 4096p ?? are you sure
11:29:09 <Chris82> hmmm I thought HD cameras are 1920x1200 (1080p)
11:29:26 <hylje> usually movies are filmed in the "next generation" of consumer tech
11:29:29 <peter1138> "Notice to all Scan Staff - Not Available on Loan File for Evaluation or Testing in Technical Dept!!"
11:29:42 <Chris82> dihedral: hey that looks nice :D
11:29:53 <Chris82> is the layout customizable?
11:29:55 <Sacro> peter1138: i wonder how they'll deliver it
11:30:01 <Sacro> i can't see DHL fitting that in a van
11:30:01 <hylje> and for all you know, movie theaters push a bit higher resolutions than your basic HD
11:30:13 <dihedral> used HTML_Template_SIigma
11:30:38 <Chris82> well I have a simple old 72 cm TV which can't profit from HD anyway
11:30:45 <Gekkko> scalable vector graphics make my pc lag
11:31:00 <Chris82> before I buy anything like Blu-Ray (I go for HD DVD probably anyway) I need to wait a few years till I have an LCD TV :D
11:31:01 <hylje> Gekkko: no, rasterization makes it lag
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11:31:26 <Gekkko> i was talking about the format
11:31:34 <Sacro> LCD monitor with a dvb card
11:31:37 <hylje> svg just makes it feasible to make huge images
11:31:49 <hylje> try viewing a 7680 x 4320 png
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11:32:30 <Chris82> I have a 150000x30000 tiff here :D
11:32:41 <Chris82> printed a banned on my dads plotter from that file lol
11:32:52 <Chris82> dihedreal: From when are those readings?
11:33:04 <Sacro> peter1138: notice they can't pluralise tyre
11:33:16 <hylje> printing works stuff tends to get crazy
11:33:44 <Rubidium> :( my poor laptop only does 1920x1200... I want that biggest one ;)
11:34:11 <Chris82> only 1920? how big is that screen :D
11:34:25 <Chris82> my eyes would hurt after reading longer text at such a resolution
11:34:43 <Chris82> btw Sacro, how does your Desktop look on the LCD TV?
11:34:49 <Chris82> is it readable? or haven't you checked yet
11:35:19 <Chris82> I don't have a DVD player, I have only my PC connected to the TV and sound system and on a normal TV the desktop looks ugly and unsharp
11:35:28 <Rubidium> Chris82: for me it's readable... others don't always agree with me ;)
11:37:17 <Sacro> its an LCD monitor with DVB tuner
11:37:26 <Sacro> oh, it might not be LCD
11:37:46 <hylje> Rubidium: heh people say the same thing for my 1600x1200 15.4" lappy
11:37:59 <Chris82> ohhhh, got you wrong then, at my PC I have an LCD since 2000 I think, but it's way too small to use it for watching DVDs or TV
11:39:36 <hylje> Rubidium: btw, what model of display you have?
11:41:20 <Rubidium> how do you get that from a LCD embedded in a laptop?
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11:41:34 <hylje> a laptop model is fine too
11:42:26 <eekee> I so want a 130ppi LCD. Not before openttd has greater zoom though lol
11:42:28 <Rubidium> (II) intel(0): Manufacturer: LPL Model: 0 Serial#: 0
11:43:36 <Jerub> I have >2billion dollars
11:44:16 <Rubidium> Jerub: what version?
11:44:19 <hylje> eekee: this one's 133ppi
11:44:22 <eekee> Ack! I have >8bil pounds in one game & dont' see that. Let me get the version #
11:46:54 <SmatZ> :) eekee try loading it with some newer version
11:47:02 <Rubidium> Jerub: and in 0.5.2?
11:47:10 <Rubidium> and can you give me a link to that savegame?
11:47:39 <eekee> Rubidium: sure, give me a min to shunt it over from the ibook
11:48:19 <Jerub> and no laughing at my amateurish rail networks :p
11:48:57 <Rubidium> Jerub: are you using a PPC iBook?
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11:51:39 <Rubidium> it shows fine for me
11:52:19 <Jerub> okay, probably fixed in 0.5.2
11:52:23 <Jerub> I'll grab that and see.
11:53:48 <Jerub> intercontinental airports feel like cheating
11:53:51 <Chris82> looks fine in ChrisIN as well :D
11:54:30 <Sacro> looks fine in r10295 too
11:54:42 <eekee> that ganton transport of mine has 24 planes in an intercontinental, & it's not enough to shift the goods from that factory :D
11:54:53 <SmatZ> works for me in latest release, but I don't have PPC...
11:54:56 <Jerub> you shift goods by plane?
11:55:08 <Chris82> just wanted to ask the same
11:55:16 <eekee> yeah, they're pay well for fast transport, y'see
11:55:20 <Chris82> I never use planes for any cargo except mail and valuables
11:55:38 <Chris82> how much is your yearly income with a goods plane?
11:55:45 <eekee> ok who wants the £8bill savegame?
11:55:58 <Jerub> nope, still displays wrong in 0.5.2
11:56:00 <Chris82> meme :) I like all kind of "extreme" savegames to test
11:56:39 <Sacro> i remember when RichK got over £4G
11:56:50 <Sacro> and the graph went over and came back on at the bottom
11:56:51 <Chris82> Jerub: Your game shows fine on 0.5.2 Win32
11:57:11 <peter1138> need a bjarni to test it?
11:57:41 <SmatZ> Jerub: PPC uses the big-endian data format, doesn't it?
11:58:08 <Sacro> is it Intel or PPC OSX?
11:58:11 <Chris82> I was thinking of a "foundation" patch where you can give all your money too cancer research :D
11:58:19 <Chris82> that will solve ultra much money bugs
11:58:22 <Jerub> the problem I'm experiencing is on PPC64
11:58:24 <eekee> Rubidium: Did you want a copy of mine too? I thought you did, but can't see it in the scrollback
11:58:41 <Chris82> Jerub: Maybe it's a bug in the architecture?
11:59:20 <Rubidium> eekee: no, not needed
11:59:33 <Rubidium> anyway, it sounds like a PPC64 problem
11:59:45 <eekee> Chris82: after 100 years of inflation, £10mil to £20mill a year :D
11:59:51 <Jerub> MD5 (ganton.sav) = 19519219e88fa34a54e99d0fd8b06b72
11:59:58 <Jerub> is that right? I can't load that game.
12:00:50 <Chris82> is your CPU 64-bit only?
12:00:58 <Chris82> or what does the 64 stand for
12:02:01 <Chris82> I think we have PCs with PowerPC architecture at uni, I can try your savegame there
12:02:20 <Chris82> I don't even see the bug here with the same version as yours
12:02:33 <Jerub> okay, I just established that I can spend the money required to get it down to 2,123,xxx,yyy which displays fine
12:03:01 <Chris82> that's the highest number you can display with 32-bit integers
12:03:42 <eekee> Jerub: Looks fine on my ibook under r10076
12:03:44 <SmatZ> yup /me goes back to basic school
12:03:55 <Jerub> eekee: I wonder if it's an architecture bug.
12:04:01 <Chris82> maybe that is your problem Jerub, as soon as it goes above a 32-bit int you get the bug?
12:04:06 <Rubidium> Jerub: does the company value show correctly?
12:04:15 <eekee> Jerub: have you tried a recent nightly?
12:04:23 <Jerub> Rubidium: and the number at the bottom of the screen is wrong too
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12:07:56 <dihedral> eekee: i never had a prob in displaying anything in OS X
12:08:09 <Rubidium> dihedral: you aren't using PPC64 I guess
12:08:29 <Sacro> --- industry_cmd.c (revision 1787)
12:08:32 <eekee> oh a PPC64bug... hmmm, I guess
12:08:32 <Sacro> someone has a challenge
12:08:43 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Commit by truelight :: r1787 /trunk (4 files) (2005-02-04 14:45:32 UTC)
12:08:44 <DorpsGek> Sacro: -Add: Dynamic signs (euh.. yeah, this means you can built 64k signs)
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12:09:58 <dihedral> Rubidium: i had a look at that udp grf query
12:10:22 <dihedral> i thought i just had to send the query and got the hole lot
12:11:19 <Rubidium> Jerub: can you compile OTTD yourself?
12:14:20 *** Nickman is now known as Nickman^Away
12:15:52 <Rubidium> that patch is against 0.5
12:16:08 <Rubidium> and the problem should already be solved in trunk, but that has another cause ;)
12:16:21 <Jerub> just building trunk now
12:16:27 <Rubidium> however, please test trunk too, because if it happens in trunk too, them my fix won't fix it :(
12:16:50 <Rubidium> I hope it actually builds a ppc970 binary for you
12:22:10 <peter1138> Results 1 - 1 of 1 for "SASL authentication failure: client didn't issue valid NTLM response"
12:24:48 * Jerub waits for the compile to complete.
12:25:17 <Jerub> this is literally the first time I've considered booting up the faster mac, in 3 months
12:27:12 <Jerub> it displays fine in trunk
12:27:18 <Jerub> so it's obviously a bug that's been fixed.
12:27:33 <Jerub> I can't be bothered going back to 0.5.2 and applying the patch though
12:27:59 <peter1138> dihedral: yeah, client isn't using 'secure password authentication' so it shouldn't be using NTLM...
12:29:46 <dihedral> has there actually been any process on some type of authing players?
12:30:30 <peter1138> that result 1 of 1 is in furrin too :/
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12:36:15 <Chris82> The found town patch does not compile with Visual Studio
12:36:44 <Chris82> and I doubt it will with gcc with the current nightly
12:37:10 <Chris82> I'll look into it later, I have to go biking now :D
12:37:21 <Gekko> i compiled openttd nihghtly on gcc
12:37:36 <Gekko> Chris82: are u Dutch :P
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13:14:20 <_42_> Sacro, Bjarni (~Bjarni@0x50c79adc.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) was last seen quitting #openttd.wt2 16 hours 31 minutes ago (26.06. 20:42) stating "Quit: Leaving" after spending 3 hours 1 minute there.
13:15:33 <dihedral> Gekko: that's just gross
13:18:05 <Sacro> you've not been here long enough to be sexed
13:19:59 * dihedral wonders if he has been here long enough to have Sacro sex him
13:22:15 <dihedral> Rubidium: r10352 what does it do?
13:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> !openttd commit 10352
13:22:58 <_42_> Commit by rubidium :: r10352 /trunk/src/network/network_udp.cpp (2007-06-27 10:02:55 UTC)
13:22:59 <_42_> -Fix: the network did not request the newgrf names of newgrfs that it couldn't find; it only wanted to request the newgrf names of newgrfs that where available locally and than were called "<Unknown>".
13:23:35 <Sacro> dihedral: it tells you which grfs are missing
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13:23:47 <Sacro> which is a bit crappy for shoving into grfcrawler
13:24:47 <hylje> looking for Unknowns is always fun
13:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ever tried to search for "unknown"?
13:25:08 <dihedral> grfcrawler points to where you get the grf
13:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ever found what you were looking for that way?
13:25:30 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause: searched for "unknown' or 1=1 --"
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13:38:37 <dihedral> Gekko: no - seriously
13:39:10 <dihedral> lol - never heard that one before
13:40:46 <dihedral> Gekko: i am sure /dev/zero will eat the shoe
13:42:53 <Rubidium> dihedral: I'm pretty sure it won't; zero only produces, it doesn't consume
13:43:11 <Ailure> maybe he's referring to /dev/null?
13:43:44 <dihedral> Ailure: i mentioned /dev/null before...
13:44:36 <dihedral> Rubidium: then echo "foo" > /dev/zero if you like
13:45:56 <Ailure> I remember reading about ways to ruin a system with /dev/null
13:47:00 <dihedral> Rubidium: quote from 'man zero'
13:47:04 <dihedral> Data written on a null or zero special file is discarded
13:47:21 <Rubidium> it should error imo ;)
13:47:36 <Rubidium> ooh, ugly kernel source
13:47:44 <Rubidium> #define write_zero write_null
13:47:49 <Gekko> Rubidium: does null write nul chars and zero writer 0?
13:47:55 <dihedral> the only diff is that reading from /dev/null returns End Of File
13:48:11 <dihedral> whereas reading from /dev/zero returns \0
13:48:12 <Rubidium> Gekko: /dev/null only eats, it doesn't produce anything
13:48:34 <dihedral> Rubidium: that is not correct
13:49:53 <Rubidium> yes, I saw zero consumes too, but that wrong in my opinion
13:51:05 <dihedral> Rubidium: fatcs and your opinion aint always the same ;-)
13:51:50 <Ailure> I remember using a EOT charcther in a program I used once for transferring stuff over serial connection D:
13:52:07 <NukeBuster> How do i subtract from an commandcost?
13:52:11 <Rubidium> logically zero shouldn't consume anything, otherwise null is totally redundant
13:52:12 <dihedral> Ailure: is that not the same as EOF?
13:52:27 <Ailure> for the program it didn't matter
13:52:44 <Ailure> as I programmed it, I could use what charcther I wanted to signify whenever transmisison was over
13:53:00 <Ailure> and that it used a escpae charcther icnase it wanted to send the EOT charcther without aboriting the transmission
13:53:24 <Rubidium> dihedral: I know, but... it isn't logical
13:54:04 <Ailure> wth are they doing there
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13:54:43 <Rubidium> Ailure: being stupid
13:54:52 <Rubidium> i.e. placing those 7 poles
13:55:32 <Phazorx> ... arounf them, thus blocking the exit
13:56:10 <SmatZ> lol THANKS for explanation :)
13:56:50 <SmatZ> I though they were cleaning the pavement :)
13:57:19 <Phazorx> yeah.. cleaners are now equiped with new jumping vans
13:57:23 <Ailure> that part about creating a empty file
13:57:28 <Ailure> might be useful for us ROM hackers
13:57:40 <Ailure> no needs for a ROM expander
13:57:47 <Ailure> just append zeroes to the end of a file
13:58:54 <Ailure> Mostly Super Mario world for some reason
13:59:11 <peter1138> might just fit between the two bottom poles
13:59:22 <Ailure> I even made my own editor for snake rattle n roll D:
13:59:31 <Ailure> and hacking machine code of a program is fun
14:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause2> they once made a processor that had prolog as machine code :)
14:01:37 <Gekko> was it called Ugly Stick?
14:01:44 <Ailure> there's also a fictional processor
14:01:48 <Ailure> with only one insturction
14:01:51 <Ailure> that is turing complete
14:02:01 <Eddi|zuHause2> that is easy :)
14:02:08 <Ailure> gotta be a hell to program though
14:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> something like "calculate c:=a-b and jump to x if c==zero"
14:03:16 <Eddi|zuHause2> where a,b and c would be registers (infinite amount)
14:04:01 <Ailure> it was a rather complex insturction
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14:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> we had to do some funny programs with that :)
14:04:31 <Ailure> There's something charming with simple processors
14:04:42 <Ailure> this 6502 programs runs on a NES :p
14:04:55 <Ailure> Seems like tha tproject went nowhere
14:05:43 <Ailure> I have a tendancy to design my assembly programs top-down
14:06:15 <Ailure> eh, I guess that's not too unusual if you're used to programming in C-like programming languages
14:07:15 <Rubidium> Phazorx: you wrote a pretty bad AI ;)
14:07:28 <oxygene_> did someone steal a tank?
14:07:39 <Phazorx> Rubidium: i beg to differ my AI is quite efficient in different games tho
14:07:56 <Ailure> the most advanced AI I done
14:08:07 <Ailure> is something along "walk towards position X/Y"
14:08:52 <Ailure> such AI is funny though
14:08:57 <Ailure> it keeps walking into walls
14:09:19 <Belugas> Phazorx, i have to apologize from yesterday's comemnts. I made an error. Primary industries can be closed down. There is everything needed for that.
14:09:38 <Belugas> It was an error of flag naming, from way back
14:09:48 <hylje> simple ai is like "walk towards v, change direction by x when colliding"
14:09:49 <Phazorx> Belugas:everything aside of it happening in games?
14:09:54 <Belugas> So, yes, Rubidium was right from the start
14:10:12 <Phazorx> well what you mean is it was intended but not correctly executed
14:10:17 <Belugas> current ingame had a bug, fixed by Rubidium
14:10:47 <Phazorx> i see... yet the behavior was that they were not closing which is what i commented on
14:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause2> "1985: the first FGCS hardware known as the Personal Sequential Inference Machine (PSI) and the first version of the Sequentual Inference Machine Programming Operating System (SIMPOS) operating system is released. SIMPOS is programmed in Kernel Language 0 (KL0), a concurrent prolog-variant with object oriented extensions."
14:11:03 <Phazorx> as well as not having balanced changes
14:12:45 <Belugas> Phazorx, i just mentionned what i've found yesterady. I rest my case and I go back to work@work
14:13:16 <Phazorx> thanks for the notice Belugas :)
14:16:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10353 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs):
14:16:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix/Feature [FS#669]: disallow (in the GUI) the building of infrastructure you
14:16:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: do not have available vehicles for. This means that the airport building button
14:16:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: is disabled till you can actually build aircraft. The game itself will not
14:16:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: disallow you to build the infrastructure and this "new" behaviour can be
14:16:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: overriden with a patch setting.
14:19:35 <Biff> hmm, if i set up a dedicated server, can it be admined somehow?
14:20:28 <Biff> so i have to do it command-based?
14:21:12 <Biff> how is the password defined?
14:21:22 <dihedral> in the openttd.cfg file
14:21:49 <dihedral> you can use the console of the dedicated server though too - so you do not have to be connected to the game
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14:23:24 <Ailure> the grandtheftendo authors site is ded
14:24:24 <Ailure> high-level assembler? Part of the charm with programming for 6502 is the low-level. :V
14:27:27 <dihedral> Biff: you start your dedicated server with screen
14:27:49 <Biff> then i need to learn alot of commands :P
14:27:54 <dihedral> whenever you need access to the console of the server ssh or local login
14:28:51 <dihedral> screen -x will get you into your screen session
14:29:06 <dihedral> ctrl+a ctrl+d will detach you from your screen session
14:35:37 <Biff> seems not to be that many commands
14:35:51 <Biff> eg set map size for example is not mentioned
14:36:05 <Biff> maybe it needs to be done in the config
14:37:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10354 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#950]: loading indicator showed "^" when the train would load at the given station.
14:43:05 <Phazorx> Rubidium: wasnt that the idea to have arrow up if it loads or arrow down if it unloads?
14:43:35 <Rubidium> guess I forgot a word ;)
14:44:01 <Phazorx> while you are on it - can it text be company color?
14:44:07 <Rubidium> happens all the time
14:44:12 <Phazorx> or any tother clor than white for starters?
14:44:30 <Rubidium> any good reason for that?
14:44:37 <Phazorx> hard to see on stations
14:44:42 <Phazorx> that are mostly gray/white
14:44:49 <Phazorx> if i can suggest - light cyan
14:45:38 <Rubidium> isn't that going to be very ugly?
14:47:47 <Phazorx> hmm... i dont see how
14:47:52 <Phazorx> since only thing changed is clor
14:48:00 <Phazorx> and most other train related numbers are colored
14:48:10 <dihedral> Biff: map size is set in the config file
14:48:33 <Rubidium> Biff: IIRC you can set map size as it's a patch option
14:48:58 <dihedral> Rubidium: surly you cannot change map size in game?
14:49:21 <dihedral> or do you mean just for the next game?
14:49:55 <Rubidium> well, I hope it sets it for the next game, but I'm not quite sure about it
14:50:05 <Rubidium> Phazorx: cyan isn't possible
14:50:26 <dihedral> Rubidium: so far when i have changed a patch setting in game - it was back at original setting the next game
14:50:42 <Phazorx> point being something different from background that text appears at
14:50:54 <Rubidium> but that can also be purple
14:51:38 <Phazorx> light bluish color would fit/complete green/red/yellow of other vehicle numbers
14:55:49 <Rubidium> light bluish is even more invisible that white
14:57:23 <Belugas> maybe a background, a-la-network-chat?
14:57:34 <Belugas> hello dihedral, by ther way :)
14:58:05 <Rubidium> that's going to get annoying I guess
14:58:08 <peter1138> maybe leave it as is!
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15:04:09 <dihedral> hmm, timetable, what?
15:05:20 * dihedral is in his last hour of work for today
15:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> hmm, timetable, what, trains?
15:06:11 <dihedral> hmm, timetable, what, trains, FORUM
15:06:58 <dihedral> Amler did not have the correct setting in his timetable :-P
15:20:32 <dihedral> how i am looking forward to 1800 CET
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15:41:18 <dihedral> glx: because then i can go home :-)
15:42:50 <orudge> dihedral: your signature on the forums is rather large
15:42:53 <orudge> could you remove the graph?
15:42:55 <orudge> perhaps link to it instead?
15:44:27 <dihedral> orudge: sure will do
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15:48:15 <peter1138> orudge, your ego on the forums is rather large
15:48:39 <peter1138> but then i suppose that's what comes of being the SROTU
15:50:04 <orudge> Any particular examples? :p
15:50:25 <orudge> Anyway, I was asking dihedral as SROTU™ and administrator, because people had complained :p
15:51:46 *** alanin is now known as Alanin
15:52:20 <_42_> orudge, Ev (~chatzilla@213.141.137.47) was last seen quitting #openttd 4 hours ago (27.06. 11:51) stating "Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007031001]" after spending 1 hour 1 minute there.
15:52:44 <DorpsGek> glx: Ev was last seen in #openttd 6 hours, 54 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <Ev> you can not wrap some into struct if they of different kind, it may mix of any kind )
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16:00:24 * dihedral is on his way home now
16:01:43 <glx> dihedral: we currently are in CEST :)
16:02:15 <dihedral> glx: whats you point :-D
16:09:06 *** Thomas[NL] has joined #openttd
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16:11:08 <DeGhosty> open ttd was eating 1.6 gb
16:12:30 <XeryusTC> <dihedral> glx: whats you point :-D <- there's an hour difference between the two
16:14:14 <glx> DeGhosty: your screenshot doesn't say what is eating the ram
16:16:06 <Rubidium> DeGhosty: what version?
16:18:26 <Rubidium> can you post a savegame so we might be able to reproduce that?
16:18:42 <DeGhosty> just go to open ttd right now lol
16:19:13 <DeGhosty> crap my dns server died somewhere
16:19:46 <DeGhosty> d link make the crappiest router
16:23:17 <DeGhosty> i think the draw routin didn't do garbage collect
16:23:33 <DeGhosty> cuz someone else said when you zoom out alot and scroll around a bit you loose ram
16:26:22 <peter1138> well, no, it's not.
16:31:02 <Rubidium> DeGhosty: did you select a blitter yourself?
16:33:05 <Rubidium> if you don't know that, you didn't ;)
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16:41:50 *** Osai is now known as Osai^Kendo
16:41:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10355 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Fix (r10092): memory leak when encoding (reading) sprites.
16:42:17 <Rubidium> DeGhosty: now it should leak much less
16:46:03 <Sacro> i'm sure you can guess what i did
16:55:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10356 /trunk/src/spritecache.cpp: -Fix (r10143): another memory leak eliminated.
17:02:01 <peter1138> "Does it's possible chance to return CTRL+D function to windows-version (as it's has been only windows-feature AFAIK)?"
17:05:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10357 /trunk/src/npf.cpp: -Fix: and when we're at it... yet another memory leak, but only when you start a new game; can't find any other memory leaks we can fix.
17:05:25 *** Nickman^Away is now known as Nickman
17:08:33 <Ailure> Big rigs is probably the only game where trucks can reach light speed by reversing
17:14:00 <Sacro> peter1138: english is a damned stupid language
17:14:14 <Sacro> is, from the verb to do
17:15:44 <mikk36> would it be possible to get a custom build of openttd without that cargopacket checker ?
17:16:02 <Rubidium> just uncomment a line in openttd.cpp
17:16:11 <mikk36> well, i don't have anything to build it with
17:16:17 <Rubidium> how long is it in trunk?
17:16:34 <mikk36> would need it for win32
17:16:51 <mikk36> and would be happy if i'd get it in an hour :)
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17:17:31 <mikk36> trunk has too good features to fall back to 0.5.2 :)
17:17:34 <Wac_jsC> Hi, I would like to know, if it is possible to have sort of bots in network games? - Something with AI, or ??
17:17:50 <mikk36> would, if u'd write a good AI, Wac_jsC
17:17:56 <mikk36> right now there is now good AI
17:18:06 * Rubidium doesn't like making custom builds
17:18:12 <Wac_jsC> so currently it isn't possible ?
17:18:16 <Rubidium> but I've got a better idea
17:18:36 <Wac_jsC> why is it, that they don't make bots for network games, when they have in local games ?
17:18:52 <mikk36> because the original AI cheats
17:18:58 <mikk36> and that can't happen in network game
17:19:11 <mikk36> would mismatch the clients
17:19:13 <Wac_jsC> the bots in local games are cheating ?
17:19:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10358 /trunk/src/ (blitter/factory.hpp cargopacket.h openttd.cpp): -Codechange: remove the cargopacket leakchecker as it never asserted in almost a week of stresstesting, so I'm pretty sure all cornercases are tested by now.
17:19:29 <Rubidium> free terraforming is one
17:19:47 <Wac_jsC> but anyway, is it possible to enable in network games at all ? - and how ?
17:20:07 <mikk36> because it would mismatch the connected clients
17:20:31 <mikk36> and the AI is dumb as hell anyway
17:20:32 <Wac_jsC> yeah, but it could just be an option for the server host
17:20:59 <mikk36> network game goes around in a way that everything is calculated on every client
17:21:13 <Rubidium> the AI has too many assumptions on the game core
17:21:17 <Wac_jsC> k, thank you for answering..
17:21:37 <Rubidium> for example it assumes that all commands are executed when the "DoCommand" returns. Something that is not true for network games
17:22:36 <mikk36> by what time could i expect the build to be ready, Rubidium ?
17:23:05 <mikk36> could you build a win32 release for me ?
17:23:27 <Rubidium> just wait 45 minutes? ;)
17:23:39 <mikk36> and it'll be built automatically ?
17:24:06 <mikk36> CEST -> central europe standard time ?
17:24:50 <Rubidium> depends on what country the DST is of
17:24:59 <Rubidium> if it's the US, then not always
17:25:38 <mikk36> well, because you said CEST (summer time), then DST is applied :)
17:25:55 <Rubidium> yes, but the DST in the US is different
17:26:06 <Rubidium> well, starts/stops at different times
17:26:36 <mikk36> that is up to the calculator to know the time difference
17:26:41 <mikk36> doesn't change the local time
17:28:09 <mikk36> one more question, does the nightly still have that 65535 cargopackets limit ?
17:28:32 <Rubidium> well, it's gone in trunk for a few days, so it's gone from the nightlies too
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17:59:21 <glx> hmm you forgot the 28 minutes for compilation :)
18:00:17 <mikk36> created at Tue Jun 26 20:00:28 CEST 2007. <--this is the start time ?
18:00:58 *** jojo1000 has joined #openttd
18:01:10 <jojo1000> wow so many people online :D
18:02:17 <jojo1000> if i wish to ask for help, is this the place to ask ?
18:02:41 <mikk36> so, i only had to wait 2 minutes out of 28 :)
18:02:57 <Sacro> jojo1000: depends on what you need help with
18:03:01 <Belugas> jojo1000: yes, no, maybe... it is depending of what you seek
18:03:07 <Sacro> sometimes it's best just to go to a doctor
18:03:33 <jojo1000> ok i wish to play multiplayer OTTD
18:03:40 <jojo1000> but all the servers show a version mismatch
18:03:48 <jojo1000> i currently have r8928
18:03:54 <Thomas[NL]> use a stable version
18:03:58 <Sacro> i doubt anyones running a server with that revision
18:04:20 <jojo1000> thomas .. stable version ? where do i get it ?
18:04:30 <peter1138> yars, r8928 is kind of old
18:04:41 <jojo1000> yes.. but that's the only minin that was there :(
18:04:44 <Thomas[NL]> why do you use r8928 ?
18:04:49 <jojo1000> i just learnt that they've been discontinued
18:05:22 <jojo1000> ok im at the downloads page
18:05:39 <Sacro> why does nobody run a nightly server anymore?
18:05:47 <Smoovious> Chris82 makes a different IN... stick around and ask him next time he pops up
18:06:05 <Smoovious> I see Nightly servers occasionally... one is usually passworded tho
18:06:11 <jojo1000> would 0.52 run just like that nightlies ?
18:06:12 <Belugas> Sacro : they got tired of the new features of trunk ;)
18:06:18 <Sacro> i've got a graphic glitch here
18:06:22 <jojo1000> i mean... with newgrfs.. etc etc ?
18:07:00 <jojo1000> i mean would i be able to use the newgrf settings ?
18:07:02 <Thomas[NL]> I think is can handle all the grf's of r8928
18:07:25 <Sacro> can someone look at the industries sort by production, it doesn't work right
18:07:30 <Sacro> Thomas[NL]: no it can't
18:07:53 <Thomas[NL]> It didn't have newhouses yet did it?
18:08:01 <Sacro> i think all of mart3p's patches got added
18:08:17 <jojo1000> are you guys talking at my noob level ?
18:08:32 <jojo1000> i mean something that i should listen to ?
18:09:03 <jojo1000> ok im downloading 0.5.2 :D
18:09:04 <Maedhros> 0.5.2 doesn't have newhouses, but then neither did the mini-in
18:09:14 <Sacro> we need something like autorail, for road
18:09:43 <jojo1000> first of all thank you soooo much :D
18:09:48 <jojo1000> i have another question
18:10:04 <Thomas[NL]> Sacro, what is broken in sort by production ?
18:10:16 <jojo1000> is there any thread or webpage where i can understand which grfs work? and in which order i should install them?
18:10:26 <jojo1000> some grfs work just fine and the others don't work at all.. :(
18:10:48 <Belugas> Sacro, what about industry sorting?
18:11:06 <Sacro> Belugas: it doesn't seem to sort right anymore
18:11:34 <Sacro> Belugas: the highest producing industries don't always appear at the top
18:11:44 <Sacro> or maybe i just want a sort by type and production
18:12:17 <Thomas[NL]> are you talking about farms being on top of the list?
18:13:14 <Thomas[NL]> it adds the grain and livestock together, this has always been IIRC
18:13:22 <Thomas[NL]> (not that I like it)
18:13:38 <jojo1000> i just installed 0.5.2 it shows an error in the beginning .. something to do with show_town_names show_station_names for display.opt ?
18:13:51 <jojo1000> has someone faced the same ?
18:14:08 <Thomas[NL]> did you use your old openttd.cfg?
18:14:28 <Belugas> Sacro, maybe Thomas[NL] is right. I don't know yet. Will take a look at it toningh
18:14:58 <jojo1000> ny workaround thomas ?
18:15:01 <Thomas[NL]> rename it, start openttd close it and it has generated a new one, no you can easily cop grf settings etc
18:15:09 <Sacro> Belugas: i've just got back onto BST :D
18:15:21 <jojo1000> awesome.. lemme try it
18:15:24 <Sacro> though i doubt it will take me long to float back to PST
18:15:42 <Sacro> Belugas: well i switch to around -12
18:16:04 <jojo1000> yup thomas it worked ! :D
18:16:24 <Belugas> -6 or -5, actually... don't know exactly
18:17:24 <jojo1000> thomas should i check the WIKI for grfs or would you recommend grfcrawler ?
18:17:26 <Sacro> well... i was going to bed about 7am, getting up about 5pm
18:18:41 <Thomas[NL]> jojo1000, first look for grf's on the wiki they are guaranteed to work,(some only on nightlies) after that you van check crawler
18:19:07 <jojo1000> also thomas : (sorry to plaster so many questions) ... what part of my OLD .cfg file should i copy to the new one ?
18:19:28 <jojo1000> 'cuz my old games are now obviously not loading :P
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18:20:33 <jojo1000> another thing thomas.. is the 0.5.2 already patched ? or should i need to apply a new one ?
18:22:45 <Thomas[NL]> jojo1000, what do you mean by patched? your (miniIN) savegames will probably not load
18:23:01 <jojo1000> so i need to play them all over again :) no issues
18:23:25 <jojo1000> is there any part of the NEW .cfg file that i should replace with the OLD ?
18:23:28 <Thomas[NL]> (correct me if I'm wrong) your .cfg has nothing to do with save-games loading or not
18:23:42 <peter1138> you can use the old config file
18:23:54 <peter1138> any bits it doesn't understand it will ignore
18:24:04 <Thomas[NL]> maybe your newgrf-section if you used grf's.
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18:24:27 <Thomas[NL]> the old .cfg gave an error
18:25:04 <jojo1000> i used the old cfg file.. it shows up an error of display_opt = SHOW_TOWN_NAMES|SHOW_STATION_NAMES|SHOW_SIGNS|FULL_ANIMATION|FULL_DETAIL|DO_WAYPOINTS
18:25:20 <jojo1000> that's why i was asking if any changes are needed
18:25:25 <Rubidium> it'll just show that warning the first time
18:26:15 <jojo1000> oh ok .. nothing i need to worry about .. is it ?
18:26:56 <Rubidium> but your MiniIN savegames are not going to load in 0.5.2
18:26:59 *** Alanin is now known as alanin
18:27:52 <jojo1000> yes.. all i wanted to know was just that if the GRFs that i used to use in my minins would work or not :)
18:27:56 <jojo1000> but thomas kindly helped me
18:28:57 <Rubidium> they should all work
18:30:16 <jojo1000> rubidium, would you be able to tell me any webpage or thread where some user has kindly mentioned what GRFs he has used SUCCESFFULLY?
18:30:38 <jojo1000> there are so many grfs (With trams and new industries) .. i get really confused
18:30:50 <Biff> is the background when you start openttd a ordinary savegame?
18:31:23 <Thomas[NL]> allmost all work except (for the stable) trams, industries, cargo, articulated vehicles, newhouses ...
18:31:56 <jojo1000> thanks thomas ! huggggggggg !!!
18:32:11 <peter1138> articulated road vehicles. articulated trains work fine
18:33:08 <jojo1000> also ... i only have problems with NEW road vehicles grf... anything that is STABLE? like the UKHOVS bus set or the planeset?
18:33:19 <Thomas[NL]> hmm, can you give any example of an articulated road vehicle ?
18:33:26 <jojo1000> im looking for juggernaut trucks etc. that i've seen in some screenshots.. but i could never get them
18:34:20 <jojo1000> these work thomas? since i think i've been to this page before
18:35:31 <Thomas[NL]> they work, but there are some glitches etc. (not because of openttd failing)
18:35:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
18:36:43 <Bjarni> what did you want to tell me?
18:37:06 <Bjarni> you want me to translate some other bullshit or something?
18:37:06 <jojo1000> thank you belugas.. you guys are too cool ! :)
18:37:44 <Bjarni> I was just told that it appears to be cold in here xD
18:38:23 <Bjarni> I bet Sacro wants to get some porn translated, but he decided not to ask about it anyway :P
18:38:43 <Sacro> Bjarni: i don't mind what language my porn is in
18:38:54 <Sacro> you just learn how to say "YES" in any language
18:39:24 <Bjarni> I don't think that will work for erotic stories
18:39:38 <Bjarni> I mean text only stories
18:40:14 <jojo1000> sorry bleugas.. that thread took me to some other page
18:40:22 <Bjarni> <Sacro> you just learn how to say "YES" in any language <-- so tell us how to say "YES" in a whole lot of different languages :P
18:41:20 * Bjarni has the feeling that Sacro is no good at languages
18:41:31 <Bjarni> that sucks when you are on the internet
18:41:48 <Bjarni> not to mention while travelling
18:41:55 <Bjarni> or talking to tourists
18:41:55 <Sacro> well this internet is in english
18:42:24 <Bjarni> "this internet".... you mean that there is a separate internet for every language or ? :P
18:42:36 <Bjarni> also it's English, not english
18:42:38 <Sacro> i'm happy with this one
18:42:43 <Sacro> its in english, and it has porn
18:42:54 <eekee> lol a lot of stuff seems to be seperated
18:43:57 <Bjarni> isn't the "'" the replacement of the mission " i"?
18:44:07 <Thomas[NL]> what I thought ...
18:44:29 <Sacro> Bjarni: its is the exception that proves the rule
18:44:37 <Sacro> and its not always the omission of i
18:45:08 <Bjarni> it's the omission of one or more letters, not specifically i
18:45:28 <Sacro> i'm the wrong way around ><
18:48:45 <Bjarni> I would tell you something about a foreigner having to tell you how to use the grammar of your own language, but considering you being in Hull, I guess it's no big surprise after all
18:50:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10359 /trunk/Makefile.in: -Codechange [FS#935]: add some explanations what the different make "commands" do.
18:53:11 <Phazorx> what was last revision before cargo packets?
18:53:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10360 /trunk/Makefile.in: -Fix (r10359): make should always do "make all" by default
18:54:12 <Thomas[NL]> what are these cargo packets?
18:55:05 <Phazorx> Ailure: i'm going back to 265 on yours
18:55:13 <Rubidium> mikk36: have you played at something between r10266 and r10300 and did that desync, only after r10300 ?
18:55:17 <mikk36> add newgrf window has a locked position
18:55:27 <mikk36> i've had no desyncs lately
18:55:51 <Phazorx> coopers boxes desync a lot
18:56:01 <Phazorx> 343 only with yapf, 258 all the time
18:56:01 <Rubidium> Phazorx: but since when?
18:56:17 <Phazorx> Rubidium: since 343 most likely
18:56:21 <Ailure> and was that for #rohmacking over at espernet?
18:56:28 <Phazorx> Ailure: wrong channel and autocompletion, my bad sorry
18:56:31 <Rubidium> Phazorx: the desyncs with YAPF I meant
18:56:52 <Phazorx> Rubidium: we went from 265 to 343
18:56:54 <Ailure> hardly the first time that happens to me <<
18:57:06 <Phazorx> that produed desyncs with yapfed trains
18:57:17 <Rubidium> Phazorx: please try something between 266 and 300
18:58:28 <Rubidium> because in r10301-further a lot of YAPF changes were done and the "ditch YAPF cache on each tick for network games" was removed
18:59:26 <Chris82> is our found a town champion here?
18:59:51 <Chris82> 3>..\src\town_cmd.cpp(1549) : error C2440: 'return' : cannot convert from 'CommandCost' to 'int32'
18:59:51 <Chris82> 3> No user-defined-conversion operator available that can perform this conversion, or the operator cannot be called
18:59:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10361 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
18:59:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-06-27 20:59:10
18:59:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 fixed by tucalipe (3)
18:59:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 5 fixed by thetitan (5)
18:59:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 fixed by arnaullv (3)
18:59:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 6 fixed, 4 changed by vermon (10)
18:59:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 fixed by glx (1)
19:00:01 <Chris82> I get this error in 4 instances and once again don't know what to do with it :D
19:00:25 <Rubidium> Chris82: lot of code regarding to the return value of commands has changed
19:00:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10362 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: make tunnel costs less exponential for (very) long tunnels.
19:00:45 <glx> Chris82: have fun with int32->CommandCost conversions :)
19:02:28 <Thomas[NL]> to come back on the sort on production issue, can't the average of grain&livestock be used for a farm's production?
19:03:00 <Phazorx> Rubidium: autopilot fails with r10300
19:04:07 <Sacro> making a cost less exponential
19:04:36 <Bjarni> now Sacro is showing signs of being cheap as well :P
19:04:59 <Chris82> I don't know what should be wrong with this line though if (DistanceFromEdge(tile) < 12)
19:05:21 <Chris82> in trunk I can find code like DistanceFromEdge(tile) < 20 so where's the difference?
19:05:53 <Rubidium> neither do I, but that's because I don't have any context
19:06:06 <Chris82> it's from the found a town patch
19:06:24 <Chris82> and according to what Gekko told me earlier today it should compile fine with current trunk
19:07:07 <Phazorx> Rubidium: 358 produced unsable saves
19:07:12 <Phazorx> rolled back version works tho
19:09:38 <Rubidium> in which version can't they be loaded?
19:10:11 <Rubidium> well, that's logical because there is a savegame bump in between there
19:10:29 <Phazorx> well it was nice for you to tell me that now
19:10:31 <Rubidium> your now playing with the version that can't have more than 65535 cargo packets
19:11:03 <Phazorx> well it was 265 > 358 > 300
19:11:12 <Phazorx> and 358 did let players do anything
19:11:36 <Phazorx> compiling client now to see if 300 works with yapf
19:12:03 <Phazorx> peter1138: that is different server
19:12:26 <Phazorx> that box is 265>343 and desyncs only with yapf
19:12:40 <Phazorx> 358 desync if trains are moving anyhow
19:14:27 <Rubidium> do you have the savegame of the 358 desync fest?
19:15:49 <Phazorx> that's a bad save tho
19:15:58 <Rubidium> why is the save bad?
19:16:07 <Rubidium> why is too many trains bad?
19:16:19 <Rubidium> except that it's horribly slow on my computer
19:24:22 <stillunknown> My train can float on water :-)
19:32:14 <Phazorx> can desync happen with only one player?
19:32:59 <Rubidium> if that's the case that person is usually using a completely different architecture (CPU)
19:33:49 <Phazorx> Rubidium: that is not the case and i'm trying to figure out if it is dure to 300 working or lack of reason to desync
19:34:26 <Phazorx> peter1138 / Rubidium can at elast one of you get 300 and join the server?
19:35:24 <Rubidium> I'm running it locally now
19:37:14 <peter1138> run from march to october without a desync, with yapf disabled
19:38:55 <stillunknown> Is the bridgeramp part or the wormhole?
19:51:50 <dihedral> Rubidium: today i had no problem with building pre signals!!
19:52:09 <dihedral> appart from when i had a dsync and rejoined
19:52:32 <dihedral> but quitting and fireing ottd up again solved it!!
19:52:54 <dihedral> only thing different: thunderbird, chatzilla and skype were not running
20:21:36 <mikk36> why can't we sort by tractive effort ?
20:26:03 <dihedral> if a train as no orders and as to go through a station
20:26:16 <dihedral> it seems to ignore the pre signal setup
20:28:52 <Rubidium> you use the wrong signals
20:29:09 <Rubidium> for "choice" you need to have the two way ones
20:29:20 <Chris82> dihedral: Can you send me the source of the page you've shown me earlier today to chris@sandra-bullock.co.uk so I can play with the design?
20:32:56 <peter1138> what strange colour track is that?
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20:33:14 <stillunknown> Is it dangerous to call VehicleEnterTile on an empty tile?
20:33:22 <Chris82> Rubidium: I figured the error I had before. CommandCost CmdFundTown is correct and int32 CmdFundTown was obviously old OTTD code
20:33:28 *** Osai^Kendo is now known as Osai
20:33:34 <Chris82> so thanks for leading my thoughts in the right direction
20:40:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10363 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Fix [FS#911]: invalidating autoreplace windows didn't take account of vehicle group (Matthias Wolf)
20:42:31 <dihedral> Rubidium: what are the two way signals then?
20:44:11 <peter1138> only 7 bugs assigned to bjarni now
20:45:39 <dihedral> Chris82: email just headed out
20:46:05 <dihedral> if you need anything, jot me a note :-)
20:47:01 <dihedral> Rubidium: forget my last question :-)
20:47:42 <dihedral> but why would i then need 2way signals?
20:48:26 <Rubidium> because 2 way signals are handled as "choice" and one way signals not, they only "pass" the signal state to the other signals
20:49:32 <Chris82> thanks for the e-mail :)
20:49:51 <Chris82> is it correct that AI doesn't build ships?
20:50:44 <Bjarni> <peter1138> only 7 bugs assigned to bjarni now <-- good... I'm still looking at the autoreplace thingie, but it may take a while :/
20:51:21 *** alanin is now known as Alanin
20:52:31 <peter1138> Bjarni: if you'd've looked at fs#911 you'd've seen the patch was supplied :p
20:53:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10364 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#706]: checking for duplicate custom names was inconsistent, and tested all 'namespaces'. now only check names of the same type.
20:53:49 <Bjarni> actually I was more thinking like autoreplace in general. I'm trying to make it more robust so it's less likely to fail even with odd newGRF restrictions
20:54:15 <Chris82> btw a little suggestion for auto replace to make it more GRF friendly
20:54:26 <peter1138> Chris82: support newgrf specified autoreplace? Heh
20:54:31 <Chris82> in DB Set XL for example you have waggons of very different capacity e.g. 15 - 40 tons over time
20:54:41 <Bjarni> also it should be a bit easier to modify it to do stuff like returning better error messages
20:54:46 <peter1138> wagon replacement is supported
20:54:56 <Chris82> the waggon auto replace should replace the 15 t waggons with fewer 40 t waggons so trains don't get ultra large capacity
20:55:05 <peter1138> Bjarni: that's not really relevant to, say, bug 911
20:55:23 <Chris82> yeah I know waggon replacement works, but replacing 10 15t waggons with 10 40t waggons is not really what I want
20:55:24 <Phazorx> peter1138: btw UKRS seems to be funky when some cars are autoreplaced to utility cars
20:55:40 <Phazorx> they loose half capacity if it is done via autoreplace
20:55:41 <peter1138> dihedral: presignals do not work with no orders
20:55:43 <Rubidium> dihedral: because that it apparantly the shortest path or so
20:55:51 <Phazorx> but if you try to refit - they gain it back at no cost
20:56:07 <dihedral> all trains in that pic have no orders...
20:56:35 <dihedral> and behave completely differently to the trains on the other station of that track
20:57:33 <Phazorx> peter1138: for example food, in that save at sme point of time we replaced TEA with utility cars (which weight much less but offer same capacity) and we end up having half of what was expected
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20:57:42 <dihedral> what is the reason for pre signals not working if a train has no orders?
20:57:43 <Phazorx> then manualy park all of these trains and hit refit button
20:58:12 <peter1138> dihedral: presignals themselves work, but trains do not pick the paths as you expect
20:58:18 <peter1138> because... they're not pathfinding
21:00:16 <Chris82> is it possible that trains are taking a much higher load on the CPU than other vehicles?
21:00:33 <peter1138> usually because there's a lot more of them
21:00:38 <Chris82> I have a test game with 329 trains, 637 trucks and 167 planes and cpu is only around 12 percent
21:00:49 <Chris82> with 800 trains I have twice as much CPU although the amount of vehicles is lower
21:01:13 <peter1138> how many rail vehicles though?
21:01:16 <peter1138> i.e. trains + wagons
21:01:23 <Rubidium> trains are *more* vehicles than trucks, so you need to do a lot more crash checking etc.
21:01:58 <hylje> two wagons can never collide though?
21:02:59 <peter1138> Phazorx: i don't see a problem with tea/utility + food
21:03:14 <peter1138> Phazorx: note that 35 bags of mail != 35 tonnes of food
21:03:45 <Phazorx> peter1138: check that save you got
21:03:53 <Phazorx> utility there has 35 food
21:04:26 <Rubidium> Chris82: also means that it has to draw more vehicles, update hashes etc.
21:05:12 <Chris82> does it even draw them when I have OTTD minimized?
21:06:30 <peter1138> as least, i think it does, heh
21:07:20 <peter1138> Phazorx: utility van has different food capacity depending on which engine it's refitted with
21:07:33 <hylje> its funny how food is generally equivalent to goods but transported by the tonne
21:07:40 <Phazorx> how's that making sense
21:07:41 <hylje> rather than the crate counter of goods
21:10:27 <peter1138> Phazorx: sounds like a ukrs bug
21:10:51 <peter1138> might be intentional
21:11:13 <Phazorx> intentional bug ? pikka works for microsoft??
21:11:43 <peter1138> no, the different capacity might be intentional, but the side effects of moving stuff around might've been forgotten
21:11:49 <peter1138> need to test it with ttdpatch, really
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21:32:02 <UnderBuilder> a question: if we want to port ottd to the nintendo wii for example we should need a license to do it?
21:32:44 <Rubidium> the port would be GPL
21:32:51 <Bjarni> an answer: porting GPL code doesn't need a special permission
21:33:31 <UnderBuilder> so... only commercial projects need a license right?
21:34:52 <Bjarni> license stuff can be somewhat complex once in a while, but if the software is GPL, then it's ok to port it
21:34:54 <Rubidium> UnderBuilder: depends on the project
21:35:29 <Rubidium> as long as you release the source code when you release it (the binaries)
21:36:41 <Bjarni> yeah, you should apply to the GPL license, so releasing your source code is a must
21:39:00 <Rubidium> but a Wii CD with OTTD sounds interesting ;)
21:39:37 <Prof_Frink> s/'have to'/'have to, or get permission from *everyone* who contributed code to openttd to use a different license'/
21:39:58 <Biff> releasing the source is a must if you want to distribute the nintendo wii versjon
21:40:01 <Ailure> While the Wii is wonderful and all
21:40:10 <Ailure> is TTD really a good game for it?
21:40:19 <Biff> but if you only use it yourself, you do not need to release the source
21:40:20 <Ailure> I can understand if people want TTD on handhelds <<
21:40:49 <Bjarni> Ailure: that's a good question
21:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... "you'd've" <- i have never seen that before :)
21:41:02 <Prof_Frink> Ailure: Sure. You can... throw trains at your opponents. Yeah.
21:41:03 <Bjarni> is the wii hardware fitting for OpenTTD?
21:41:23 <Ailure> oh of course it's good enough
21:41:34 <Ailure> you can probably fit openTTD on a DS with some work
21:41:48 <Ailure> but i'm not sure if it's really fitting for the I/O
21:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> either "you'd have" or "you would've"
21:41:49 <Prof_Frink> Although, using the wiimote as a mouse could work
21:42:19 <Ailure> well someone probbaly will do it sooner or later :)
21:42:35 <Rubidium> and you've got a few buttons + an on-screen-keyboard and you've got everything you need
21:42:53 <Ailure> I think the Wii got a USB port
21:43:14 <Prof_Frink> OSK isn't really needed apart from setting company and chairman names
21:43:23 <Ailure> so you might be able to ues a keyboard/mouse
21:43:31 <Ailure> but of course, then you could as well use a computer D:
21:43:49 <SmatZ> isn't there some voice recognition software?
21:44:08 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: multiple contractions :D
21:44:10 <Ailure> imagine playing openTTD like that
21:44:16 <Ailure> "transparency on, transparency off"
21:44:25 <Ailure> "horizontal rail, vertical rail"
21:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause2> Prof_Frink: you'd occasionally want to set newgrf parameters, chat, and enter console commands
21:44:33 <Prof_Frink> Ailure: Nah, just 'ecks'
21:44:36 <Ailure> instead of pressing a hotkey, you say it out loud
21:44:40 <SmatZ> I mean, just to spell your name :)
21:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause2> peter1138: i have my doubts wether that is actually correct english :)
21:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> i never get that one right...
21:45:47 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause2: it is
21:46:30 <Ailure> I wonder how much work it would be to port openttd to DS
21:46:43 <Ailure> there was a PSP port I recall
21:48:27 <Ailure> less memory than PSP, but data can be read directly from the cart with a almost non-existant delay if any
21:48:49 <Ailure> haha oi it would require quite some slimming
21:49:55 <Eddi|zuHause2> peter1138: excuse me, if i refrain from using it, though :p
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21:53:12 <peter1138> never mind that "'ve" is commonly miswritten as " of"
21:54:47 <Sacro> cos it was gonna be my project, to tidy it up
21:56:31 <SmatZ> the only problem was not conforming with ottd coding style?
21:56:33 <Sacro> if it was unlicenced before, i can't fork it
21:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... are patches to GPL programs automatically GPL'ed?
21:58:03 <peter1138> SmatZ: no, the code was crap, let alone the style
21:58:04 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: i would assume upon commiting
21:58:17 <Sacro> so if i *do* tidy it up
21:58:40 <peter1138> it no longer exists, heh
21:58:46 <Sacro> peter1138: i have it on my desktop :p
21:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: actually, no, you have to agree to the GPL before you modify a GPL'ed source code
21:59:04 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: an excellent point
21:59:16 <Ailure> What's up with people taking it as a huge offence ot not get their patch included into trunk. D:
21:59:26 <Sacro> if he has said DON'T USE
21:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, if by releasing it previously he allowed people to use it, he cannot "unrelease" it anymore
22:00:01 <SmatZ> yes, it happens sometimes - when a project changes license, there may be a fork contiuing under old licence - even with different dev team
22:00:25 <Sacro> will anyone second this?
22:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause2> he can change the license for any new version, but he cannot do it for previous releases
22:00:58 <Sacro> i have his last patch on my desktop, i grabbed it last night to look into
22:00:59 <Ailure> like when I installed uhm
22:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause2> but if the code was as crap as people tell, you'd probably be better off starting from scratch anyway :)
22:01:19 <Ailure> some of the bundled software was rather old
22:01:34 <SmatZ> the rights are one thing, second thing is making original developer upsed by releasing his code...
22:01:41 <Ailure> due to it being BSd licensed, and the newer version was licensed under GNU
22:01:53 *** Alanin is now known as alanin
22:01:57 *** alanin is now known as Alanin
22:02:13 <Eddi|zuHause2> "making original developer upsed by releasing his code" <- then he should not have touched GPL'ed code
22:02:36 *** Alanin is now known as alanin
22:02:47 <Ailure> I seen open source projects that accepts every patch that springs up
22:02:53 <Ailure> the code isn't fun to maintain :)
22:03:39 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: well, it would be based on his works
22:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, sure, but that's what the GPL is about
22:04:03 <ln-> 00:58 < Eddi|zuHause2> Sacro: actually, no, you have to agree to the GPL before you modify a GPL'ed source code <--- not really
22:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> basing things on other people's work
22:04:31 <Sacro> i have no idea, i'm trying to learn
22:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> 5. You are not required to accept this License, since you have not
22:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> signed it. However, nothing else grants you permission to modify or
22:05:26 <Eddi|zuHause2> distribute the Program or its derivative works.
22:06:08 <Sacro> so any derivative works are automatically under the GPL?
22:06:59 <ln-> yes, but whether a patch as its own is derivative work, is a little questionable.
22:07:04 <Eddi|zuHause2> yes, that's the whole spirit of the GPL
22:07:07 <peter1138> who cares, the patch was shit :D
22:08:36 <Ailure> like the way he handled a bug <<
22:11:06 <Sacro> ln-: it was based off OpenTTD though
22:11:15 <Sacro> unless he just wrote the diff on his own
22:11:48 <ln-> but what about the LAME mp3 encoder?
22:12:02 <ln-> which is LGPL instead of GPL, but still.
22:12:39 <SmatZ> LGPL - you may link to :GPL'ed libraries
22:12:55 <Ailure> that would be a hack of a way to get around the license
22:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: i'm pretty sure the LGPL makes a difference between using it and modifying it
22:13:06 <Ailure> by writing the patches manually
22:13:27 <peter1138> Ailure: like ttdpatch? :)
22:13:50 <Sacro> peter1138: don't they refer to the original code?
22:14:43 <Ailure> oddly, most people who I know who hacks machine code
22:15:06 <SmatZ> anyway, reverse engineering - the way ottd's source code was originally gained - is illegal in some countries... we should be glad microprose nor chris sawyer are not demanding their rights...
22:15:12 <Ailure> well, most is about just a few from romhacking community, but still
22:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause2> the questionable part about such a "patch" is the use of addresses from the original program
22:15:31 <Ailure> Well reverse engineering laws in Sweden isn't very harsh as far I know
22:15:44 <Ailure> and the founder is Swedish as far I know
22:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> SmatZ: for all we know, it was not illegal according to swedish law
22:17:04 <ln-> if I make a (significantly large) patch against a GPL project, and publish it, and later tell no one may use it... it might be against GPL, but does a GPL violation invalidate my copyright to the patch, and the right to decide how it is used and distributed?
22:17:10 <Ailure> though people get around some grey areas as much they can
22:17:17 <Ailure> by supplying hacks as patches
22:17:21 <Ailure> usually through the IPS format
22:17:24 <ln-> especially if the patch never was explicitly stated as being under GPL.
22:17:27 <Ailure> ...like ttdpatch does.
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22:17:35 <Ailure> though not with IPS, I don't know what they use
22:18:43 <Eddi|zuHause2> ln-: the question is if they are implicitly eleased under the GPL
22:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause2> and i think they are
22:19:05 <SmatZ> I think the way gcc3 was born - there were some modifications to the gcc2 done by (I can't remember atm), and the source code had to be released later
22:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> because of that previously quoted paragraph 5
22:20:07 <SmatZ> yes, because of the licence :)
22:21:37 <ln-> egcs was the advanced version of gcc.
22:24:59 <peter1138> ahh, back in the day
22:26:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10365 /trunk/src/ (network/network_data.h spriteloader/png.cpp): -Fix: compiling without png and networking support under MSVC.
22:30:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: KUDr * r10366 /trunk/src/yapf/ (yapf_costrail.hpp yapf_rail.cpp):
22:30:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange [YAPF]: added DEBUG_YAPF_CACHE macro that (when set to 1) allows to track YAPF "cache errors". They are probably responsible for current MP desyncs. (thanks Rubidium for this great idea!).
22:30:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: I will deal with those errors/desyncs tomorrow.
22:37:57 <Sacro> i've had my cheeseburger
22:38:09 <Sacro> shall i dig around with that patch?
22:45:49 <Eddi|zuHause2> i already said you'd probably be better off starting from scratch
22:50:27 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause2: yes... but i will refer to his for ideas
22:55:26 <ln-> does any of use the best text editor on earth, FTE?
22:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> what? the best text editor i have seen was "copy con: file"
22:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> i definitely used copy over word any time :p
22:57:38 <SmatZ> somebody said me MSVC can import RTF/DOC documents and compile them...
22:57:50 <SmatZ> *the source written inside them
22:58:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> i remember RTF being used for .hlp files
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23:02:16 <Ailure> probably like some of my early programming expriments
23:02:21 <Ailure> which was a spaghetti code mess
23:04:14 <Jinx> nothing too fancy but still...
23:04:30 <Jinx> opening a scenario with a faulty scn file crashes the game
23:04:35 <Rubidium> starting with the version
23:05:14 <glx> what do you mean with faulty scn?
23:05:31 <Jinx> well... i tried using the "play scenario" bit while it was still downloading
23:06:15 <Jinx> AppName: openttd.exe AppVer: 0.5.99.0 ModName: msvcrt.dll
23:06:15 <Jinx> ModVer: 7.0.2600.2180 Offset: 0002554a
23:06:24 <Jinx> the exact dump is available too :)
23:06:58 <Jinx> didn't think it would. ms crappy dlls
23:07:14 <Jinx> anyway... i would think it would fail gracefully but it just crashes
23:07:16 <glx> anyway you did something very wrong :)
23:07:33 <Jinx> wll yes... opening the scenario while firefox was still downloading it :)
23:07:45 <Rubidium> I guess we need to be a little more lenient with crashing ;)
23:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause2> wasn't there a "don't crash on incorrect savegame"?
23:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause2> + commit recently
23:08:52 <glx> but in this case it's more than incorrect savegame
23:09:41 <Jinx> in any case... hope it was somewhat helpfull :)
23:09:56 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: incorrect savegame meaning savegame of a version we do not support (i.e. it is loadable in some (patched) version)
23:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause2> but if the savegame is incomplete, shouldn't zlib already barfß
23:12:37 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause2: maybe you can truncate the file in such a manner that zlib thinks it's okay
23:12:54 <Jinx> is a scn the same as a save cept for the extension?
23:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause2> non-prefix-codes are a bitch to handle :(
23:15:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> the least you could do would be to start (or end) with the filesize
23:16:42 <glx> zlib compress on the fly, it can't know the filesize
23:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause2> well, you do know the filesize at the end of the zlib call
23:17:19 <Sacro> glx: well it should insert the final md5 at the beginning for verification
23:18:22 <ln-> i bet it didn't work that way in the original game.
23:18:48 <glx> original had lzo compression IIRC
23:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> original had compression?
23:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause2> well... good night
23:27:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10367 /trunk/src/saveload.cpp: -Fix: do not crash horribly when the file you are trying to load is too short or decompressing it fails.
23:40:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r10368 /trunk/src/waypoint.cpp: -Fix: when renaming waypoints, ownership was only checked client-side, not in the command.
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