IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-06-10
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00:10:38 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
00:26:54 *** |Gekkko| has joined #openttd
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00:35:57 <jordi> so, I was wonderign why Ubuntu wasn't picking our Debian package.
00:42:49 <jordi> it seems I had to push the right buttons, it's not entirely automatic for non-"main" packages
00:44:26 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
00:44:52 <Sacro> Arch has got it in the community repo
01:24:14 <Smoovious> any games need another player right now? (deciding which to join)
01:25:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10078 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Centralize all industry counts data and access
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01:56:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
02:39:28 <Phazorx> how do i see full changelog
02:39:44 <Phazorx> one of old bugs is back i wanna find out revision which it was fixed in
03:00:18 <mggrant> could try "svn log <filename>"
03:05:54 <Phazorx> heh dont have svn client here but i guess
03:06:03 <Phazorx> however i want changelog like it apreas on site
03:06:18 <Phazorx> CIA-1 woild give it to me but i need it from 89XX to now i ithnk
06:00:58 *** Osai^2 is now known as Osai
06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r10079 /trunk/src/lang/ (bulgarian.txt catalan.txt estonian.txt):
06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-06-10 08:31:40
06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 29 fixed by thetitan (29)
06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 fixed by arnaullv (1)
06:32:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 159 changed by kristjans (159)
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07:42:07 <stillunknown> KUDr_wrk: do you work on sundays as well?
07:49:39 <Phazorx> stillunknown: may be you know
07:49:46 <Phazorx> how can i get cghangelog
07:51:54 <Phazorx> canyou cat it to me somehow plz hylje ?
07:53:36 <Phazorx> it's for our bug which came back
07:53:49 <Phazorx> i want to track the release where it got fixed
07:54:34 <Phazorx> i assuem it grows incremeantaly
07:57:12 <Noldo> does constructing waypoint cost money?
07:58:23 <stillunknown> Noldo: I think so, why wouldn't it cost money?
07:58:40 <Noldo> I just had an unsure feeling about it
07:59:25 <Phazorx> hylje you remember PS37 bug, reversing trains longer than station?
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08:45:46 <Noldo> I wonder why SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer(...) is static
08:49:20 <Bjarni> maybe because it's only called from one file? :)
08:49:44 <Bjarni> use static whenever possible. It helps the linker
08:53:20 <Noldo> it is called from that file yes, but there is a need in one place elsewhere
08:55:46 <Noldo> and the need is removed by some nice tricery of temporarily assinging the _current_player global to something else
08:55:58 <Bjarni> if you need it in another file (in your patch), then consider if you decided on the right design, if you really need it and if so, remove the static if you have to
08:56:01 <Noldo> and then using SubtractMoneyFromPlayer function
08:57:27 <Noldo> well it's just a little thing and has nothing to with the thing I'm really doing
08:57:39 <ln-> why wouldn't you too temporarily assign something to _current_player.
08:57:42 <Bjarni> if it's unrelated, you shouldn't touch it
08:57:50 <Bjarni> at least not in the same diff
08:59:22 <Bjarni> actually I think it's a good idea to keep SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() within a well defined area of the code. We wouldn't want a bug in say roadveh_cmd.cpp to take money from the wrong player
09:00:34 <Bjarni> right now roadveh_cmd.cpp works on current player being set when calling commands or by v->owner.... kind of tricky to mess that up
09:00:57 <Bjarni> I mean to mess it up unintentionally
09:08:55 <Bjarni> maybe SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() should be a private function in the player struct...
09:09:10 <Bjarni> but this was coded when it was C only and it works
09:10:31 <Bjarni> well, at least SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() could do with an enum... it's full of magic numbers
09:10:32 <stillunknown> Bjarni: why was m7 put in a seperate struct?
09:11:50 <Bjarni> I guess it could be some memory management so it's made like that in order not to waste memory while keeping it at a high speed
09:11:57 <Bjarni> high speed access, that is
09:12:50 <stillunknown> So, i did remember correctly, was unsure.
09:12:57 <Bjarni> if I recall correctly, the struct is optimised for 32 bit CPUs... adding m7 would waste a lot of memory because then the struct's total size wouldn't be a multiply of 32 bits
09:13:23 <Bjarni> you can check this very easily... is the struct a multiply of 4 bytes :)
09:13:28 <stillunknown> it would have become 10 or 12 bytes iirc
09:14:23 <Bjarni> besides it doesn't matter much as the code shouldn't access it directly anyway and it's not that tricky to ensure that the access functions can deal with this correctly
09:14:55 <stillunknown> Bjarni: Do you know why most people here are very wary of community made patches?
09:15:23 <Bjarni> efficient memory is important if the game should keep working on old hardware or small devices like PSP
09:16:07 <stillunknown> Is that the anser to my last question?
09:17:15 <Bjarni> it's really time consuming to read somebody else's diff files and understand them. Usually it doesn't stop there because a fair amount of them are crap, some needs improvements and only a few can be committed unmodified
09:18:21 <stillunknown> Bjarni: have you seen the hashmap improvement patch? (does it stand a chance?)
09:18:22 <Bjarni> if we just accepted them without the time consuming parts, then our code would become really unstable and much harder to read
09:19:10 <Bjarni> I didn't read it, but I think it has a good chance of getting added whenever it's completely done. Last time I checked, it still lacked a bit of work
09:19:19 <Bjarni> but that wasn't yesterday
09:20:23 <stillunknown> I have improved the parts that were unclear to me, but what defines completely done in this case?
09:21:44 <Noldo> It seems I didn't break anything
09:22:27 <Noldo> AIs are crazy on a small map :D
09:23:18 <Noldo> it terraforms so much it looks like the ground is alive
09:25:48 <blathijs> Bjarni: Could you remove the old debian packages from SF?
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09:37:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r10080 /trunk/src/players.cpp: -Cleanup: replaced magic numbers in SubtractMoneyFromAnyPlayer() with enum values
09:38:06 <Bjarni> silly... we used the enum elsewhere, but when reading the flag, it used magic numbers
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09:56:20 <Bjarni> <Noldo> It seems I didn't break anything <--- I find that hard to believe... everybody breaks something. It's just a matter of time before the obscene new bug is found
09:56:48 <Noldo> that's why there is the 'seems' word
09:57:13 <Bjarni> like the first version of autoreplace. It crashed in MP if the lag was too big
09:57:46 <Bjarni> like if a train completely left a depot before the command was executed (it was issued when it entered)
09:58:07 <Bjarni> so short trains and/or really bad lag crashed the games
09:58:23 <Bjarni> naturally I never found that bug when testing locally
09:58:34 <Bjarni> it's not morning at all
09:58:53 * Bjarni wrote his first svn entry at 6:18 today
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10:03:51 * kaan thinks Bjarni needs to get a sence of sleeping the real morning away on sundays
10:04:18 <Bjarni> but I woke up and couldn't sleep
10:04:18 * boekabart did, but didn't want to
10:05:18 <kaan> hehe, when you live by the lake and forest its nice and warm, not hot and dreadfull :D
10:06:05 <Bjarni> the same should be true when living at the sea :s
10:06:44 <kaan> Bjarni: where do you live?
10:06:58 <Noldo> I decided to ^S my irssi
10:07:42 <kaan> oh, that famous spot near the sea :P
10:07:58 <Bjarni> I'm not stupid enough to give away my address in here... people could show up in person to try to make me do stuff to the code
10:08:08 <Bjarni> I can imagine some people, who might do that :(
10:08:24 <kaan> I was thinking more like what country or sea ;)
10:08:46 <Bjarni> you should use /whois and you would have known :p
10:09:01 <kaan> I dont use /whois, its never reiable
10:09:19 <Bjarni> btw how can you be in Denmark and NOT be somewhat close to sea... ;)
10:09:39 <kaan> easy, take a look at nørup ;)
10:09:58 <kaan> islands or mainland? east or west coast?
10:10:00 <Bjarni> you replaced sea with sø.... error in translation xD
10:11:15 <Bjarni> if I decided to cut some trees and stuff, then I would be able to see Sweden from here
10:11:26 <kaan> ok, thats the problem then
10:11:39 <kaan> east coast in calm winds
10:11:49 <kaan> too much heat builds up :)
10:13:32 <kaan> ok, all of you guys with a personal vendetta against bjarni, go to sweeden and look for places where you can see denmark ;)
10:14:12 <Bjarni> that would be like 90% of everybody on the other side >_<
10:14:31 <kaan> And now they know where to look ;)
10:14:45 * Bjarni decides to hide in Sweden and watch the people looking for him in Denmark
10:16:36 <mikk36> what do you have against Bjarni, kaan ?
10:16:54 <kaan> nothing much, i treat everyone like that :P
10:17:13 <mikk36> so you have a vendetta against me too ?
10:17:43 <mikk36> at least i'm not different from you then :P
10:18:08 <kaan> consider me the great equaliser ;)
10:18:17 <Noldo> what was the svn command to use when conflict has been resolved
10:18:49 <Bjarni> what do you want to do? :)
10:20:54 <kaan> i have this idea that i cant seem to get mysefl to start implementing
10:21:06 <kaan> if i bother you guys with it i might do it
10:21:51 <kaan> the idea is to make two classes: DepotBackup and VehicleBackup
10:22:37 <kaan> They would be used when cloning vehicles and upgrading them across tracktypes and so on
10:23:07 <Bjarni> cloning across tracktypes?
10:23:26 <Bjarni> wouldn't that be autoreplace across tracktypes?
10:23:45 <Bjarni> and I wondered about that as well
10:24:06 <kaan> the idea is that you can create a VehicleBackup with a Vehicle as parameter and then it saves all the data, this makes the backup able to return the cost for several operations on that vehicle, like cloning or upgrading replacing and so on
10:24:28 <Bjarni> it should be two depots next to each other and a train entering one depot would be replaced to the other type in the other depot
10:24:37 <Bjarni> I just can't get assed to code it :p
10:24:41 <kaan> and if there is money enough it can also execute the wished operation
10:25:24 <kaan> Bjarni: that where the DepotBackup class comes into play
10:26:43 <Bjarni> have you seen how autoreplace works?
10:26:50 <Bjarni> it's a vehicle by vehicle action
10:27:03 <kaan> if you use the upgrade tool on a depot then it will make a DepotBackup that in turn will make VehicleBackup of all vehilcles in the depot and then if all things are alright you can destroy the original depot and place a new one and populate it with upgraded vehicles
10:28:07 <kaan> no i havent, and its entirely on purpose
10:28:27 <kaan> im writing a new solution to an old problem ;)
10:28:57 <Bjarni> so if the train enters a depot, then get the money from selling it (before selling it), then move though it vehicle by vehicle to generate the new train in the other depot and then it was done, move the cargo, sell the old train and repay the price of the old train (you started by borrowing it and now you get the money again by selling, so to avoid double payment)
10:29:19 <Bjarni> it something goes wrong, then it can just sell the new train and report an error and the old train is untouched
10:29:37 <Bjarni> if done correctly, then this can be done for free so the money is also untouched
10:30:19 <kaan> the whole idea was to make a "backup" that you can test to see if all things go well before actually doing any changes in the game world
10:30:20 <mikk36> Bjarni, what would u say for the minimum requirements of openttd ?
10:31:12 <Bjarni> mikk36: depends on the map size and such... I used to run it on a 266 MHz PPC.... worked ok for decent screen sizes and map sizes, but it was more or less maxed out so fast forward gained max 10% speed
10:31:24 <stillunknown> mikk36: Depends on many factors (i know i'm not Bjarni).
10:31:53 <mikk36> i tried it on 1Ghz Athlon, G400, 1GB ram and it was pure laghell, already at the start screen
10:32:00 <Bjarni> maybe the game is a bit more demanding today... it has been a while since I used that computer
10:32:12 <kaan> Bjarni: besides, i was thinking of using the same money buffer as the replace function has
10:32:16 <Bjarni> 1 GHz should be enough
10:32:50 <mikk36> well, i got only maybe max 15fps out of it on the start screen
10:32:56 <stillunknown> mikk36: what OS do you run?
10:33:00 <mikk36> ~800x600 or whatever that default screensize
10:33:09 <Bjarni> stillunknown: it's a patch, not a bug... see task type
10:33:32 <stillunknown> But it's still on a bugtracker ;-)
10:33:40 <mikk36> m on 1600x1200 at my work
10:33:49 <Bjarni> stillunknown: it's on our task tracker ;)
10:34:21 <mikk36> editing pdf's relatively easily
10:35:01 <Bjarni> kaan: how do you plan on making the cache.... I would like to see that
10:35:05 <mikk36> has anyone else testid openttd on a matrox card ?
10:35:58 <Bjarni> the vehicle backup thing
10:36:14 <stillunknown> mikk36: You have official drivers installed for your card?
10:37:17 <Bjarni> but the vehicles are in the pool system...
10:37:52 <kaan> oh, but im not going anywhere near using the Vehicle class for anything but reading existing vehicles
10:38:12 <Bjarni> then how will you restore your backup?
10:38:17 <kaan> VehicleBackup will be your basic wagon or whatever
10:39:10 <Bjarni> how about storing the vehicle struct and then use memcpy to get everything?
10:39:11 <kaan> DepotBackup::CloneVehicle(Vehicle v)
10:39:20 <Bjarni> you would have to deal with vehicle pointers though if you do that
10:40:43 * Bjarni wonders if this can be applied to autoreplace without making it too slow
10:40:51 <kaan> Im thinking that it will not be any kind of optimised code, but rather made to be easy to understand as these operations dont occour often
10:41:17 <kaan> autoreplace is one usecase this should work on
10:41:30 <Bjarni> it will happen all the time when somebody switches from one railtype to another
10:41:56 <stillunknown> Striving for optimized code is always, but do keep it understandable.
10:41:58 <kaan> all the time, as in every 5 minutes?
10:42:27 <stillunknown> kaan: Imagine if a lot of features were coded with the same idea.
10:42:40 <Bjarni> as in "happens in bursts, which can make slow clients in MP drop because they can't keep up"
10:43:02 <stillunknown> Also keep in mind it should run on slower platforms.
10:43:19 <kaan> this approach is mostly a memory expensive one rather than cpu expensive
10:43:39 <stillunknown> How memory expensive?
10:43:40 <Bjarni> if the server is too slow, then it will delay sending "move to next tick" commands
10:44:07 <Bjarni> if a client is too slow, but the server can keep up, then the client has no way to tell that it's behind the action and it drops
10:44:28 <Bjarni> because of that we should try to even the load
10:44:36 <Bjarni> over many ticks if possible
10:44:53 <kaan> that would be possible with this approach
10:45:19 <kaan> you can restrict the making of backups to X per tick
10:45:27 <Bjarni> this is why autoreplace is nice... it works on VehicleEnterDepot() and odds are that it's limited how many vehicles that enters a depot during the same tick
10:46:19 <stillunknown> mikk36: I hope you find out what your problem is.
10:46:26 <kaan> but that would destroy the transaction idea
10:46:49 <mikk36> because i'll upgrade my work computer in max 2 weeks
10:47:33 <Bjarni> this is why two depots next to each other and an action on VehicleEntersDepot() would help... only one train enters the same depot every tick
10:48:04 <Bjarni> and then you wouldn't need a backup because you just delay selling the old one until the new one is complete
10:48:44 <kaan> one of the ideas in this was to unify the way these kinds of actions is handled
10:50:16 <Bjarni> using autoreplace for this as well would unify it, but it would need some work on the autoreplace code to make this work
10:50:40 <kaan> maybe its time i look at the existing code
10:51:15 <Bjarni> I moved it to a file of it's own not long ago
10:52:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10081 /trunk/src/ (ai/default/default.cpp town_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS851]: towns/AIs didn't build bridges anymore (boekabart).
10:53:50 <Bjarni> I wonder how the backup idea would work on autoreplace in general
10:53:58 <Bjarni> I mean if it would be faster or slower
10:54:23 <kaan> that iompossible to say before i get around to implementing something that works ;)
10:55:17 <Bjarni> but having a backup command would solve many of my newGRF compatibility issues as I can just presume it works and if it fails, then revert
10:55:41 <kaan> thats one major selling point i guess :)
10:59:18 <Bjarni> I wondered about how to make the backup, but just making a linked list (or actually an array of the correct length... we know the needed length when backing up) might do the trick if handled correctly
10:59:49 <Bjarni> but it would have to do way more than you just mentioned :/
10:59:59 <Bjarni> or else it will fuck up
11:00:03 <kaan> Id prefer <List> as you can iterate over it
11:00:49 <Bjarni> since it's a fixed size, you should use vector. It's like an array, but you can iterate over it and extend it if needed
11:00:57 <kaan> yes, there would have to be all kinds os securty checks and bell and whistles
11:02:14 <kaan> I was thinking that once you have a backup in hand, then you can ask it to simulate varius operations and return the cost, or even if its possible
11:02:44 <Bjarni> it would be hard to simulate
11:03:11 <hylje> transaction-based replacing!
11:03:13 <kaan> not if its the same code that actually does the work when you turn simulate off ;)
11:03:19 <hylje> now with military grade reliability!
11:03:54 <Bjarni> the problem with the simulation is the pool thing
11:04:14 <kaan> i dont know one bit about the pool, please tell me what the problem is?
11:04:27 <Bjarni> whenever you buy something, it will end up in the pool
11:04:42 <Bjarni> when you sell something, it's presumed to be in the pool
11:05:00 <Bjarni> think of the pool as a giant <List>
11:05:10 <Bjarni> we just made custom code to handle it to make it faster
11:05:38 <kaan> ok, then waht is the problem, every backup object isnt in the pool
11:05:42 <blathijs> Bjarni: It's more like an array than a List, since every item has an index
11:05:43 <Bjarni> it contains all vehicles in the game (we use 16 bit VehicleIDs, so it's 64000 player vehicles+ some reserved stuff)
11:05:57 <Bjarni> blathijs: right.. good point
11:06:42 <Bjarni> all the functions to build and sell vehicles interacts with the pool and presumes that the vehicle is inside the pool
11:07:21 <Bjarni> so mixing an external list with the pool would be bad
11:07:40 <Bjarni> making a backup would most likely be just that
11:08:00 <Bjarni> the ability to store the info on the vehicles
11:08:06 <kaan> the backup isnt real in any sence, but a real vehilche can be made with the data in the backup
11:09:16 <kaan> its just a matter of making the conversion at the right time :)
11:09:19 <Bjarni> the backup would contain the vehicle struct. Restoring the backup would be to request x free slots in the pool (it's returned as an array with a pointer to each free place), so it can be copied back into the pool
11:10:27 <Bjarni> so it would likely be like: backup, work on original. If it fails, then sell original and request X free places in the pool to restore the vehicle. Fix the pointers as it's likely not in the same location in the pool anymore
11:11:14 <Bjarni> also cash flow should be 0, so you have to pay -income from selling the old train
11:11:40 <Bjarni> doing it any other way would likely cause more problems than it will solve
11:11:59 <kaan> VehicleBackup::ProduceVehicle(VehicleType, TrackType, CargoRefit) soemthing like that, mind the pseudocode ;)
11:12:47 <Bjarni> if the vehicle struct is stored in the backup, then we store everything you just wrote as arguments
11:13:19 <kaan> well in talking conversion they might differ in the new version
11:13:23 <Bjarni> so it's just store, and when reverting, it's moving the data back and setting up the next and first pointers
11:13:53 <Bjarni> and it will be 100% like the old one
11:13:57 <kaan> well, thats drifting a bit far from my original thought now ;)
11:14:10 <Bjarni> err, every single vehicle pointer in the restored train should be checked
11:14:33 <Bjarni> dualheaded engines would need to set up a pointer to the other end as well
11:14:56 <Bjarni> <kaan> well, thats drifting a bit far from my original thought now ;) <-- maybe, but it's drifting towards something that might actually work
11:15:20 <kaan> thats one way to look at it :P
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11:15:39 <kaan> anyway, im glad that i seem to have inspired you
11:16:06 <Noldo> I managed to get rid of _yearly_expenses_type
11:16:21 <blathijs> Bjarni: What exactly would a "vehicle backup" be?
11:16:33 <blathijs> a vehicle that doesn't really exist but can be cloned?
11:17:32 <kaan> as i read bjarni its a placeholder for vehicledata that you can use to restore a vehicle
11:18:06 <Bjarni> instead of doing a whole lot of magic checks to estimate if a replace can take place, then it can copy all the vehicle structs into a vector and then just try to replace. If it fails, then it should sell all the vehicles in question and restore the original based on the data in the vector
11:18:43 <Bjarni> then the magic would be to ensure that no vehicle pointers messes up and that the total costs ends up as 0
11:19:09 <blathijs> ah, to prevent autoreplace from failing
11:19:10 <Bjarni> the alternative would be to work on autoreplace whenever a new newGRF feature breaks it
11:19:43 <blathijs> how exactly does NewGRF break autoreplace? Introduce unanticipated costs?
11:19:59 <Bjarni> well, it will ensure that in the eyes of the user, nothing happened if the replaced failed
11:20:48 <Bjarni> <blathijs> how exactly does NewGRF break autoreplace? Introduce unanticipated costs? <-- no. The last bug I fixed was due to the new engine that had the restriction that it couldn't be joined with the cars
11:21:10 <Bjarni> and because of that, the user noticed two half trains in the depot, both stopped
11:21:51 <Bjarni> if the backup was in place, then it would notice the problem, sell everything, pay back the income from the selling and restore the original vehicle
11:21:56 <Bjarni> nomatter what went wrong
11:22:22 <blathijs> Can't you simply create the new train first, then if that worked, sell the old train?
11:22:28 <kaan> Its a good solution to that specific problem :)
11:22:49 <Noldo> does vehicle purchase price change when bying and selling vehicles?
11:23:11 <Bjarni> blathijs: not if I only has to replace a few units of a long train, say like 2 engines in a 10 unit train... the rest should remain the same
11:23:21 <Bjarni> Noldo: not if the age is 0
11:23:31 <Bjarni> which it would be in this case
11:24:23 <Bjarni> blathijs: I tried making a brand new train and a few other ideas like it... they all failed
11:24:35 <kaan> oh, i have to go or ill mis my workout
11:24:51 <Bjarni> you don't need a workout in order to code
11:25:09 <kaan> no, its entirely for the benefit of women
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11:26:29 <Bjarni> nice to see you again :)
11:27:07 <Bjarni> Alltaken is in the winter time... maybe it's a decent temperature at your place :)
11:28:05 <Noldo> Plaah, my computer can't take the heat :/
11:28:35 <Alltaken> its 8 degrees max today
11:28:56 <Bjarni> then I guess you don't have hardware overheating issues right now
11:29:22 <Bjarni> Noldo: my computer can... except for the TV tuner >_<
11:30:15 <Noldo> the other one that tries it's best to work like a server is not in any problems
11:34:01 <Alltaken> Bjarni: well i have heaters turned on everywhere so yeah :D
11:34:29 <Alltaken> i recently moved down south in my country, so i am prety close to antarctica now. nice and cold. perhaps i will get snow where i live for the first time in my life
11:35:11 <Bjarni> that's... inhuman conditions :o
11:36:23 <stillunknown> Noldo: Is your computer undercooled or just poor hardware?
11:36:38 <Bjarni> last winter we had some snowplow trains that derailed due to a whole lot of compressed snow
11:36:51 <Bjarni> I think two of them derailed
11:37:46 <Bjarni> btw we lost our last commercially driven steam locomotive when it derailed with a snowplow
11:38:01 <Bjarni> it's actually not that long ago we used steam
11:39:44 <Noldo> stillunknown: undercooled
11:40:25 <stillunknown> Noldo: then i suggest you fix it sometime soon ;-)
11:40:44 <stillunknown> I have a low airflow system, but it's holding up quite well.
11:41:02 <stillunknown> I must admit ambient temperatures have not exceeded 27-28 degrees C yet.
12:20:11 *** Hendikins|BNEABXMEL is now known as Hendikins
12:20:24 <Bjarni> if it's a low noise system people want, then they should use temperature controlled fan speeds
12:20:49 <Bjarni> this way it will usually not make a lot of noise while they can still keep cool on a hot day
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12:23:02 <geoffk> northbridge and use a system thats not overpowering its not needed for most things
12:23:58 <geoffk> i can get by on PIII works to do anythign i need to
12:24:37 <geoffk> i could use slower but restrictive of what desktop i can run
12:25:43 <geoffk> having said that dont rush out to buy a pIII scram is like gold dust now
12:27:44 <geoffk> i've even had problems buying fans to and heatsinks fit on some low end old systems
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12:59:07 <stillunknown> Bjarni: a well designed system doesn't even need high speed fans at all
13:02:49 <stillunknown> Unless ofcource it get's really hot (35 degrees C for example).
13:19:32 <Noldo> which parts of the code make use of c++ features?
13:26:56 <Rubidium> Noldo: lots of parts
13:27:17 <Noldo> I noticed some :: in vehicle stuff
13:27:36 <Rubidium> and it's not easy to tell you which ones exactly
13:38:54 <Wolf01> ooook, now that i have my new ipaq with windows mobile 5 i must look for a mobile ottd version
13:43:34 <Wolf01> this mean that i must set up a compiler for windows mobile
13:45:25 <Wolf01> brrr the WM5 SDK is 175MB
13:47:50 <Wolf01> maybe i can become the official WM5 port maintainer :D
14:04:06 <Bjarni> <Wolf01> maybe i can become the official WM5 port maintainer :D <-- that would be nice
14:04:32 <Bjarni> specially if the port is a port and not a hack like the one you just linked to
14:04:43 <Bjarni> they screwed up the window GUI code to make it work
14:05:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
14:06:05 <Wolf01> i don't have enough knowledge to change massively the code to make it work, but i'll try to get it work as it is
14:06:46 <Bjarni> the general problem is that some windows are too big to fit on the screen
14:07:02 <Bjarni> how big is your monitor?
14:07:12 <Bjarni> resolution, not inches :)
14:07:55 <Bjarni> can't it be turned into 320x240?
14:08:06 <Wolf01> yes, if i rotate the pda
14:08:43 <Bjarni> anyway OpenTTD is designed with 640x480 in mind so some windows default size is like 400 pixels high/wide
14:08:54 <Wolf01> the camera software works in 320x240, so it shouldn't be a problem
14:09:25 <Bjarni> well, if you get it working, then we can talk about the window sizes
14:09:37 <Bjarni> it's the same issue on PSP and it more or less works
14:10:01 <Wolf01> another problem is that i don't have enough buttons
14:10:29 <Wolf01> i have only the directional pad, and some other buttons around
14:10:47 <Wolf01> but i think they are binded to the phone functions
14:11:04 <Wolf01> as i saw that only 2 buttons were customisable
14:11:27 <Bjarni> mouse + button + control
14:11:27 <Wolf01> if you want to look at it, is the ipaq rw6815
14:12:17 <Wolf01> the mouse can be used with the touch screen
14:13:21 <kaan> im feeling a bit used :P
14:13:32 <Bjarni> the mouse is the touch screen, you have 4 direction keys, that can be used for control and stuff
14:13:42 <Bjarni> touching the screen is the same as a click
14:14:29 <Kjetil> (tapping should equal a click)
14:15:37 <Bjarni> we have different drivers to translate keyboard input (like different drivers for mic, video, sound and so on). We can just map the direction keys to keys we need, such as shift, control and so on
14:16:01 <Bjarni> tab = click, hold on the screen = hold down the mouse button
14:18:14 <Bjarni> kaan: so you saw a lot of bouncing boobs and sweaty asses?
14:20:24 <Wolf01> we talk of sex and then Sacro popups...
14:21:37 <Bjarni> I think it highlights on boob, sex and so on
14:21:45 <Sacro> only highlights on Sacro
14:22:12 <Bjarni> Sacro: I don't trust that... you always show up whenever a word like that is mentioned
14:22:50 <Sacro> Bjarni: i happened to be following the channel
14:23:13 <Sacro> i idle in a few channels
14:23:41 <Bjarni> since you always do that, then you have to spend a great deal of time lurking
14:25:03 <kaan> actually i was almost alone in there
14:26:38 <kaan> there was nice aiconditioning
14:28:29 <Bjarni> they are tending some AI?
14:30:33 <Wolf01> doh, i need visual studio
14:31:03 <Wolf01> i hope the express edition is enough
14:32:30 <Bjarni> it would be nicer if the makefile could do the trick :/
14:34:08 <Wolf01> i hope also that the free disk space is enough!
14:36:35 <Bjarni> 128 mb... should be overkill
14:36:47 <Bjarni> but then again you likely want to have other stuff on it as well
14:37:08 <Bjarni> 416 MHz... might have an issue with background saving
14:37:19 <Bjarni> I mean it could slow down
14:39:20 <Bjarni> or take more than a month to save
14:39:45 <Bjarni> on the other hand it shouldn't play big maps
14:40:00 <glx> <Wolf01> i hope the express edition is enough <-- no it isn't
14:40:44 <hylje> enjoy your crippled software
14:41:53 <Bjarni> it should be way easier to get it working on nokia S770 and similar (like S800... I think it's named). They have no screen size issues and uses gcc for compiling
14:42:20 <Bjarni> I hate when you pay for some hardware and then you have to pay for a compiler as well
14:42:24 <Sacro> there already is a UIQ3 port
14:42:29 <Sacro> but they haven't released source
14:44:12 <Noldo> it's conceptually in the same level Series40 and 60
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14:45:26 <Sacro> "Unfortunately language file isn't simple text file and I don't know how to edit it." ← methinks he isn't looking hard enough
14:46:20 <Wolf01> is still possible to use strgen.exe to compile language files on the fly?
14:47:37 <Bjarni> strgen would make the lng file from a txt file when you execute it with the right arguments... nobody tells you to do it when compiling the OpenTTD binary
14:47:52 <Bjarni> we scripted it to do so to make it easier, but you can do it later if you like
14:48:48 <Wolf01> i think i need to buy VSstandard from bittorrent
14:49:41 <Bjarni> I heard that they have nice opening hours... like they are open on normal sundays
14:52:06 <Wolf01> if it will satisfy me enough i'll go buy the hardware edition, call this a tryout :D
14:52:28 <Bjarni> I think many people think like that
14:52:48 <Bjarni> a whole lot of them forget the last part when the "trial period" runs out
14:54:55 <peter1138> i ought to try testing it on my pocket pc device again
14:55:15 <Bjarni> as I said earlier, it's way easier when you can just use GCC and other free to download software
14:55:30 <Bjarni> you don't even have to think about making demos and so on
14:55:42 <peter1138> cross compiling to pocketpc was a bitch last time i tried ;)
14:55:54 <Wolf01> i have a lot of original products, and now that i have enough money i can buy other original products (i'm trying to replace the whole pirate section)
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14:57:13 <Bjarni> what I really hate about commercial products is that I usually lack behind in gaming and when I realise some game would be cool, it's already out of the shops :(
14:57:39 <Bjarni> I even ended up searching for a game where the company went bankrupt once
14:57:55 <Bjarni> I guess I should have bought it earlier :p
14:59:08 <Wolf01> i'm still loking for TTDX
14:59:24 <Sacro> peter1138: you are wanted in #tycoon
15:00:09 <Wolf01> about games, i wait 'til their price is <=15€, and then i purchase them with the probability of 95%
15:00:44 <Noldo> any devs who have warm feelings about getting rid of _yearly_expences_type global variable?
15:03:14 <peter1138> hmm, is pocketpc little or big endian...
15:04:10 <Bjarni> windows... sounds like little endian
15:04:25 <Bjarni> and I think arm is little endian
15:05:39 <Wolf01> yeah... arm can be both
15:13:54 <Bjarni> usually PowerPC is big endian though
15:14:51 <Bjarni> some of them (like PPC405) has a flag to set endianess. If you write little endian code for it, set it to little endian and if you has some big endian code, then toggle that flag
15:22:55 <Wolf01> Bjarni, i must wait and purchase VS2005 :(
15:26:51 <Wolf01> ah, Sacro (tits, to get your attention) about my friend who is unable to compile successfuly ottd, he tried with -d but it doesn't say a word...
15:28:38 <Wolf01> with the nightly binary it complaints about language file errors
15:28:47 <Sacro> it should return some messages
15:28:52 <Wolf01> but the revision is the same
15:29:23 *** TinoM| is now known as TinoM
15:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> Wolf01: you have to copy all files from the nightly archive, not just the binary
15:31:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> Wolf01: are you sure it's not a dedicated build?
15:31:13 <Wolf01> but the compiled version no
15:32:07 <Wolf01> what's the difference about the language files for the dedicated or the ui?
15:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> the language files are the same, but if you start a dedicated build, no window opens, so it appears like it is doing nothing
15:34:25 <Wolf01> compiled: does not start, no errors
15:34:25 <Wolf01> compiled+nightly binary: does not start
15:35:39 <skidd13> any notices from configure or windows build?
15:35:57 <Rubidium> Wolf01: what are you using?
15:36:04 <glx> Wolf01: with the corresponding openttd.grf ?
15:37:26 <Rubidium> ah, so he doesn't have any of the sdl development files, so it falls back to a dedicated build
15:37:37 <Rubidium> his configure warns about that
15:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, that was my suspicion, too
15:37:44 <Rubidium> (unless he's using non-nightlies)
15:38:03 <Wolf01> warning: no video driver found, building dedicate only
15:38:09 <Wolf01> ok, seem that we found the issue
15:39:59 <Sacro> openttd is going into multiverse
15:41:30 <Sacro> Rubidium: non free repo for Ubuntu
15:42:45 <Rubidium> ah Ubuntu a.k.a. rebranded Debian Unstable ;) (openttd is already in Debian Unstable)
15:44:57 <Wolf01> so how he can solve that issue?
15:45:19 <Rubidium> install the sdl development stuff
15:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> Wolf01: install sdl-dev
15:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> might be called slightly differently
15:45:46 <Sacro> Arch always comes with devel
15:46:03 <Wolf01> the nice thing is that configure detects sdl: "libsdl-dev detected"
15:49:42 <stillunknown> I need some advice, if someone posts a patch to openttd, then by default it becomes gpl code, meaning i can do whatever i want, as long as stay within the bounds of the gpl?
15:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> err... i'd say yes...
15:53:42 <izhirahider> How can they put openttd into multiverse? Will they include the trg*.grf and sample.cat into the build, or will the game be uplayable out of the box?
15:54:53 <stillunknown> I don't think anyone ships openttd with data files.
15:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> izhirahider: the same as with the debian packages... i.e. without datafiles, and a notice that they are needed
15:55:26 <blathijs> That's why openttd is in contrib in debian instead of main
15:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> it has been done a hundred times with other games
15:57:16 <Rubidium> stillunknown: legally it might be gpl, but changing a patch (slowest one by the way) slightly and then posting it as "complete" and "your own" on the bugtracker is not ethical without consent of the author
15:57:48 <Bjarni> using vector turned out to be messy... this should work even though I haven't implemented anywhere to use this and due to that, it's untested
15:57:58 <stillunknown> Rubidium: I mentioned i got it from somewhere, i'm not even claiming that.
15:57:59 <Bjarni> I guess it could do with more comments as well
15:59:54 <Rubidium> stillunknown: even the numbers in that patch are wrong
16:00:44 <Rubidium> and when something is "confusing", it might be that you don't understand what's happening instead of something being "wrong"
16:01:43 <Rubidium> for example, the map is two times as wide as it is high in the GUI (assuming a square map). Maybe that's the reason why it "halved" the resolution along one side
16:02:57 <Rubidium> and when you try to "fix" the confusing stuff, fix it everywhere instead of only a few instances
16:04:14 <peter1138> ah yes, i was working on the fixed version
16:04:24 <peter1138> before i was rudely dragged to the mother-in-law's
16:04:57 <stillunknown> who are you talking to?
16:05:53 <Rubidium> oh, stillunknown don't forget that vehicles do not need to be on the same tile to actually collide
16:07:37 <Rubidium> and your hash functions can break very very easily
16:08:34 <stillunknown> At this point i'm considering doing it myself when i have some more time.
16:26:58 *** Ammller is now known as Ammler
16:34:39 <kaan> Bjarni: That looks very nice and im sure it will solve some of the problems you have with this. Im not big on the ** malloc this and that, but it looks ok to me. Only thing is that i imagined a more OOP approach to the problem, but ill have to get my ass in gear and show you how that would look wont i? ;)
16:35:21 <Wolf01> glx, do you know if the student edition of the VS2005 is compatible with the WM5 SDK?
16:35:56 <glx> it should, the student version is the full one
16:36:23 <Wolf01> i found an online store which sell it at 62€
16:36:59 <glx> I think you must proof you are a student :)
16:37:22 <kaan> oh then its alright isnt it ;)
16:38:52 <kaan> id say that eighter you pirate all of it or pay what is needed. but thats just me, i have a legal XP somewhere but im pirating the one i use :S so much for principles
16:42:08 <Wolf01> my computers have a legal copy of XP installed, one is a laptop with home, the other is my gaming machine with professional
16:42:27 <kaan> I used to run a IT consulting business so most of my software is legal. Maybe thats why i had to close shop ;)
16:43:36 <Wolf01> the server... heh... temporarily xp corporate, when i have enough time and will, i will install a linux distribution
16:51:00 <Bjarni> kaan: if you can write something like this in an OOP way that is just as efficient as this, then I would like to see it :)
16:53:16 <Bjarni> <kaan> I used to run a IT consulting business so most of my software is legal. Maybe thats why i had to close shop ;) <-- ohh that reminds me of the small company (like one person company or something like that) that called MS for technical support. It turned out that the serial number showed that it was a company license for 10k computers and that the company should deal with issues like that internally
16:58:46 <kaan> Bjarni: i dont think it will be as efficient, but i think it will have wider usage. It may even contain almost the same code that you made, but there will be more stuff than that :)
17:00:45 <kaan> Bjarni: *2: and that is primarily why i dindt have succes as a single person business in IT, you are simply not trusted to know you way around a mouse and it is with good reason. many times it has proven a mistake to take in small independent contractors.
17:02:57 <kaan> when i get around to making it, it will show nicely
17:03:42 <Bjarni> why should it be able to do more stuff?
17:03:48 <Bjarni> it backs up the vehicles
17:03:56 <Bjarni> isn't that what we want it to do?
17:04:29 <Kjetil> We want it to calculate the meaning of life
17:05:04 <Bjarni> but we already know the meaning of life
17:05:40 <Kjetil> nah.. the book was sensored before publishing.. the real number was changed
17:06:39 <Bjarni> kaan: what do you want it to do on top of backing up the vehicles? I don't think it should do more than it already does
17:06:49 <kaan> Bjarni: yup, its what we want it to do, and more :)
17:07:35 <kaan> well, i mentioned that it would be nice if the backup could be altered and the price of alteration returned, and stuff like that
17:08:43 <kaan> you see, where you see the backup as a way to restore after mangling the original, i see the backup as the place to do the mangling
17:09:39 <Bjarni> I think altering the backup would cause bugs that can only be solved by hacks, that can cause new bugs
17:10:02 <kaan> thats because you made the bachup a real Vehicle
17:10:24 <Kjetil> wouldn't it be easier to materialize the backup.. change it and then backup the new vehicle ?
17:10:45 <kaan> im making a simuli that can be mangled and if the result is likeable, then it can be instantied in game
17:11:50 <peter1138> just make the vehicle pool transactional
17:12:24 <Bjarni> peter1138: you do that :p
17:12:32 <kaan> hmm, that would be cool as well :)
17:12:50 <kaan> ypu, peter im waiting with my breath withheld :)
17:13:08 <peter1138> let's make it use a rdbms first
17:13:31 <kaan> dont you think that its a bit too much overhead?
17:15:52 <kaan> hmmm, i got the cola shakes, i better get to brugsen
17:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> 't was a joke :p
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17:52:21 <stillunknown> Is the x, y coordinate system oriented around the center of the map?
17:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> the very top tile is (0,0)
17:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> use the query tool
17:54:05 <hylje> all that to avoid negative numbers
17:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> it would make hardly any difference...
17:55:47 <skidd13> you got the sign bit to use for a coordinate too. ;)
17:56:41 <stillunknown> Strange, guess i'll have to figure out why i'm getting negative coordinates.
17:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause3> skidd13: integers use 2-complement, there is no designated sign bit
17:57:29 <skidd13> depends on what car type you use IIRC
17:57:57 <Bjarni> we use 2-complement as it's the default one in programming
17:59:56 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause3: is talking about "map" coordinates, stillunknown is talking about "viewport" coordinates I guess
18:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> he specifically said "map"
18:00:51 <Rubidium> well, rather "viewport" coordinates translated to "map" coordinates
18:01:27 <Rubidium> and still, there are at least 3 (x,y) coordinate systems in OTTD
18:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, tiles, positions and screen coordinates
18:02:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> where the second is actually more like a (x,y,z) coordinate
18:03:08 <stillunknown> I'm talking about the coordinates that exist in multiples of 32 of the map size
18:03:48 <peter1138> they can be negative for aircraft, iirc
18:04:31 <stillunknown> What sense does a positive coordinate system have, when they can be negative too?
18:04:45 <Rubidium> peter1138: negative for aircraft/ufo shadows to be precise
18:05:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> Rubidium: what if i place an airport near the map edge?
18:06:31 <Rubidium> might be true too, but I've never had any trouble with that, only with aircraft shadows
18:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, i noticed those commit messages :)
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18:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: looks evil ;)
18:31:47 <Zr40> any dev around looking for something to do? :)
18:32:19 <ln-> that simply doesn't happen.
18:40:03 <Maedhros> Zr40: you could just ignore ln- and ask anyway ;)
18:40:44 <ln-> i was assuming i'm already on everyone's ignore list.
18:43:27 <Zr40> well... anyone dare to point out the flaws in my patch? :)
18:44:16 <ln-> the standard processing time for ~10-line patches tends to be several months.
18:44:34 <Zr40> it's not a 10-line patch... it's much longer :)
18:45:22 <stillunknown> What is the idea behind the RemapCoord style coordinate system?
18:46:16 <peter1138> that gives you screen coordinates
18:47:25 <stillunknown> Very strange coordinates.
18:48:42 <peter1138> you get an x and a y. what is strange about that?
18:50:02 <stillunknown> The way it relies on the normal x and y coordinates.
18:50:56 <stillunknown> pt.x = (y - x) * 2;
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18:52:23 <Zr40> when you view the whole map, the (0,0) map coordinates map to the top middle of your viewport
18:52:33 <Zr40> maybe that's got something to do with that
18:52:46 <Luukland> Heya Everyone, I have a small question :P
18:52:59 <Zr40> and a tile is (about? exactly?) twice as wide as it is high
18:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> stillunknown: it's the transformation from isometric view
18:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> x direction is two left and one down
18:53:56 <Luukland> If i transport something (for example goods), and than two year i do not transport these goods from that station, will the rating disappear, or stay at 15%: poor?
18:54:03 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: that looks flipped to me
18:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> so -2*x in the x part and +x in the y part
18:54:16 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: isn't x left to right, not top to bottom?
18:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> x(original) is in map positions
18:55:01 <Luukland> peter1138 ok, but then the factory still leaves some goods at my station, every time a grain trucks delivers some grain right?
18:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> x direction is /, y direction is \, i believe
18:55:11 <Zr40> in map coordinates, (0,0) is the top corner
18:55:50 <Zr40> rotate that to be the top left corner
18:55:57 <Zr40> if the X direction is /, that becomes | after rotation
18:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> Zr40: the problem is, screen coordinates are reversed
18:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> in mathmatical diagrams, x rises to right, and y to the top
18:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> on screen, x rises to the right, and y to the bottom
18:57:16 <Zr40> in either case, X still rises to the right
18:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> Zr40: take your right hand, thumb = x, index finger = y, middle finger = z
18:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> now turn it that thumb points left, index finger points right, middle finger points up
18:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's all correct
18:59:17 <Zr40> the thumb and index finger point on the same axis
18:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> thumb points left towards you, index finger points right towards you
18:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> all fingers have to have an angle of 90°
18:59:56 <Luukland> ..........................
19:01:33 <Luukland> Someone else who can give my the answer on my question?
19:01:57 <Zr40> ratings only disappear when the station disappears
19:02:29 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: in that case, the origin seems positioned wrong
19:02:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> i think ratings disappear after they drop to 0%
19:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> Zr40: the origin can be placed completely freely
19:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> also the direction is irrelevant
19:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> relevant is the order of the fingers
19:04:55 <Luukland> But why ratings do not disappear... They are just doing nothing...
19:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> you have the coordinate system like this:
19:05:06 <Luukland> I believe in TTDpatch, they did disappear
19:05:37 <Zr40> Luukland: I haven't used TTDpatch for a long time, but I don't remember them disappearing there either
19:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> it applies to the right hand rule, so it is correct
19:06:14 <Luukland> then I am wrong Zr40, but you dont agree with me that it is useless?
19:06:31 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: any xyz coordinate system applies to the left or right hand rule, as you say rotation doesn't matter
19:07:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, by my argumentation, "left-hand" coordinate systems are "wrong"
19:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> everything else is free
19:08:12 <Zr40> Eddi|zuHause3: what is wrong about that?
19:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> they are reversed...
19:08:36 <Zr40> so would a left-hand user say
19:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's about permutations of 3 objects
19:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> you have permutations with signature 1 and permutations with signature -1
19:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> each permutation with signature 1 is invariant wrt left or right hand
19:09:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> permutations with signature -1 switch sides
19:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> and in "common" mathmatics, the right hand side was chosen
19:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> (refer to "mathmatical positive" and "mathmatical negative" direction)
19:11:55 <Zr40> I agree using the same system is good, but using the right-hand system doesn't make the left-hand system bad
19:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's completely dual, so you just choose a side, and stick with it
19:13:09 <Zr40> yes, but assume no side has been chosen at all
19:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> "good" and "bad", "true" and "false", "left" and "right"... it's all the same
19:13:30 <Zr40> you started with "wrong" :)
19:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, the "right" side has been chosen
19:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's been like that for several hundred years
19:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> just believe me :)
19:14:04 <Zr40> I don't question that :)
19:14:36 <Zr40> no, I question the left-hand coordinate system being wrong by itself
19:15:19 <Zr40> just like driving on the right or left side of the road
19:15:33 <Zr40> they're incompatible, but either way is valid
19:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> it is "valid", it is just not "standard", and by "right"=="standard", "left"=="wrong"
19:16:20 <Zr40> go say that in Britain :)
19:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have been saying that in britain, but they were apparently not listening :p
19:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, nothing in there is "reverse"... what is reverse are the screen coordinates
19:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> btw. one left hand coordinate system is used in physics, because the + and - poles are reversed
19:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause3> current flows from - to +
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19:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> so the resulting electromagnetic field is described by the left hand
19:26:27 <Luukland> This is really a stupido discussion....
19:27:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> he started it :)
19:54:52 <Bjarni> "maybe it is a bug but don't get me wrong, maybe it is the coding problem". So it it is incorrect code, it's not a bug?
19:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, it's a feature
19:55:22 <hylje> incorrectly implemented feature!
19:59:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10082 /trunk/src/network/network_data.cpp: -Fix [FS#846]: another memory leak in the networking code (benc).
19:59:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10083 /branches/0.5/elrail.c: [0.5] -Fix [FS#836]: "Deactivate Electrified Railways" didn't work.
20:00:03 *** Frostregen has joined #openttd
20:11:09 <Zr40> so... any hint on FS#104? :)
20:12:55 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
20:20:34 <blathijs> OMG, it's complete weather chaos out here
20:20:57 <blathijs> Streaming rain, multiple lightning flashes per second...
20:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> here it is completely calm
20:25:55 <Wolf01> here no more rain, a little windy, some thunders now
20:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> the day was really hot and sunny
20:27:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10084 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#855]: reversing a train when loading at a station crashed.
20:28:18 <Wolf01> here was muggy weather today, sun but unbreathable air #_#
20:49:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10085 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#839]: message that you had given money appeared even when an error occured.
20:50:03 <Bjarni> <blathijs> Streaming rain, multiple lightning flashes per second... <-- and you didn't disconnect your computer... either you have an UPS or you are living dangerously
20:50:15 <blathijs> I'm working on a laptop
20:50:45 <Bjarni> that would fit the UPS theory if it's on battery and using a wireless connection
20:52:01 <Bjarni> hmm, according to this map, the lightning is in an area from Enschede to Apeldoorn and then down to Venray
20:52:16 <Bjarni> and some of it is in Germany
20:52:28 <Bjarni> that tells us something about your location
20:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> there were bad thunderstorms in south-western germany yesterday
20:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause3> fortunately that is very far away from here :)
20:53:52 <Bjarni> south western Germany has thunder right now
20:54:13 <Bjarni> not as bad as the German/Dutch border though
20:55:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> there are practically no clouds over here
20:55:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> [22:36] <hitmansascha> Gewitter erinnert mich immer an den Vorteil von Kabelfernsehn
20:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> obviously that guy is affected :)
20:56:31 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: well, you are like 150 km from the nearest lightning and like 250 km from serious weather
20:58:03 <Bjarni> I take that back... now the closest is a bit south of Erfurt
20:58:16 <Bjarni> live updating is nice :)
20:58:18 <setrodox> earlier today there was thunder here(austria) that loud that the door here start shaking from it
20:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> erfurt is still over 50km away
20:59:16 <Bjarni> but it's not 150 km anymore
21:00:04 <Bjarni> I would be a moron not to figure out the distance between Erfurt and Halle when I'm looking at a map with both towns on it xD
21:00:52 <Eddi|zuHause3> depends if the map gives a scale :)
21:03:52 <Bjarni> actually according to this map, the distance is 86 km
21:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> which is well over 50km :)
21:04:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> i wanted to say 100km first, but thought it was less than that
21:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> is that center to center? i thought that was more like 40km
21:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> at least they do a marathon run between both cities
21:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> google maps tells me 38km
21:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> although that is not air-distance
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21:12:51 <Bjarni> I can't follow roads on this map :)
21:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> halle-erfurt is 100km by road, and 150km by autobahn
21:18:39 <Bjarni> you like traffic jams and reckless driving?
21:19:01 <Biff> no, i dont like traffic jams :)
21:19:13 <Biff> whats your definition of reckless driving?
21:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> traffic jams reduced since they finished the 3rd lane on the most occupied routes
21:20:30 <Bjarni> reckless driving is when you drive so fast that you can't be sure to stop before an unforeseen obstacle, like traffic jams
21:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> the autobahn here was a constant construction site for 15 years
21:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> you see most obstacles way in advance
21:21:33 <Biff> atleast the part of autobahn i drove on
21:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not like there is a sudden 90° curve or something :p
21:22:15 <Bjarni> not if the road is a bit wet, then you can't be sure to brake safely at the usual distance
21:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> the worst situation is when you drive 160+ on the left lane, and there switches a car from the middle/right lane into your lane, going 120
21:22:37 <Biff> well, if its wet you should obviously take that into consideration
21:22:47 <Bjarni> unforeseen obstacles can also be other slow driving cars that makes sudden lane changes right in front of you
21:22:50 <Biff> Eddi|zuHause3: that happened a lot when i were there
21:23:26 <Biff> but you often see in advance who will switch out into your lane without watching their mirror.. that happens often here in norway
21:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> i had that happen to me, too, fortunately there was another lane left of me, and it was free
21:23:45 * Bjarni considers 160 reckless nomatter the conditions
21:23:47 <Biff> just a few cars are equipped with mirrors
21:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> the guy was practically "surprise switching"
21:24:00 <Biff> Bjarni: even with a empty road?
21:24:12 <Bjarni> you can't be sure that it's empty forever
21:26:24 <Bjarni> also the wheels tend to lose their grip on the road at high speed
21:27:07 <Bjarni> not to mention if you hit a small hole or such while braking. The car will stop braking on the wheel in the hole and due to that: turn
21:27:08 <Biff> yes, there are no tires which are made for those kind of speeds
21:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can be certain that wheels designed for 200km/h also have grip at 200km/h (assuming dry road)
21:27:24 <Bjarni> a car that turns itself at that speed isn't nice to be in
21:27:34 <Biff> Bjarni: yes, we dont have things like esp, abs etc
21:27:53 <Bjarni> abs will not help in that case
21:28:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Biff> just a few cars are equipped with mirrors <- i can't see that happening in germany
21:28:12 <Bjarni> it would help if it cut braking on the wheel in the other side of the car though
21:28:16 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
21:28:29 <Biff> Eddi|zuHause3: that wasnt entierly true, but it seems to be like that :P
21:28:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r10086 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use more sensible types and functions in GenericPlaceSignals.
21:28:55 <Biff> if one wheel locks up a car with abs will normally not weer to the side
21:29:23 <Bjarni> abs will prevent the wheel from blocking, but if the problem is that it's in mid air (for a short while, but we are talking high speed), the anti block system will not prevent the lack of braking
21:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's why they invented esp
21:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause3> it distributes the braking power unevenly over the wheels, to prevent sliding etc.
21:31:25 <Biff> not to mention that people each day drive the autobahn to check the surface
21:33:02 <Bjarni> whatever you say, I still think it's reckless to drive more than say 100-120 in a car
21:33:35 <Biff> i disagree, and i cant see that you have proven that for all situations
21:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> really, the autobahn is built in a way that those "unforseen" situations rarely occure... except for the sudden lane changing, you can't do much about that...
21:34:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r10087 /trunk/src/ (callback_table.cpp main_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#834]: multiple subsequent "give money" actions could result in duplicate messages that money has been transfered when it only happened once.
21:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> and driving 160 is really not that difficult...
21:37:07 <Bjarni> well, accidents happens and the energy in the movement is v^2, so increased speed will really increase the energy involved in a crash
21:37:52 <Bjarni> so say esp avoids half of the accidents (I don't think so), then we would still have the other half of the accidents and they are all serious due to the high speed
21:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, it is more like (v1-v2)^2
21:39:22 <Bjarni> so if everybody drives 200 km/h, then v1 and v2 would be equal and accidents wouldn't be serious?
21:39:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> and by far more accidents happen in city traffic (stop&go etc.) than on the autobahn
21:39:44 <Bjarni> signs, trees and so on all give a v2 = 0
21:39:59 <Rubidium> Bjarni: and people that drive the wrong way?
21:41:04 <Bjarni> like a week ago some drunk guy drove the wrong way here... or actually near kaan and had a headon collision and killed all 4 people in the car he hit
21:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> and that's clearly the fault of the speed, and not of the alcohol, right?
21:42:16 <Bjarni> they might have survived if they didn't go 100+ both of them
21:42:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> sure, and you also believe you have no accidents if you don't leave your house
21:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> and yellow cars are less likely to be involved in an accident than red ones
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21:43:37 <Bjarni> actually it's the other way around
21:43:57 <Bjarni> red is least likely to be in an accident while black is the most dangerous colour
21:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> (which is true, but only because there are far less yellow cars than red cars)
21:44:44 <Bjarni> black cars are more likely to be overlooked because they blend into the background more easily
21:45:04 <peter1138> yeah, that's why tanks are black
21:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, i was in an accident a while ago, i was in a red car, and the other one in a white car (it was kind of foggy that day)
21:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> i was going 20km/h over a road crossing
21:46:08 <Biff> so, did you see the crash in f1 today?
21:46:18 <Bjarni> tanks are designed to be at a specific background. Cars aren't designed to blend with a specific background, so black gives the best hiding abilities on multiple backgrounds
21:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> Biff: you mean the video that was linked here earlier?
21:46:30 <ln-> 21:15 < Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: looks evil ;)
21:46:42 <Biff> well, i saw it on the tv
21:46:52 <peter1138> Biff: clearly it wasn't bjarni driving it
21:47:28 <Biff> that was a bad crash, i was sure he was dead
21:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> actually, the safety measurements in f1 are really good, you rarely hear of dead people in f1
21:48:31 <Bjarni> the road was clear, but he was driving too fast to keep on the road
21:49:39 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: well, it looks like 20 km/h was too much for the visibility that day
21:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't think the (minimal) fog was actually the main reason for the crash, but don't go there :)
21:52:32 <peter1138> i guess bjarni is one of those annoying people who drives at 75 km/h on the motorways
21:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> we have a lot of (usually older) people here in the villages that only have a tractor driving license, they are allowed to drive normal cars, but only if they are limited to 25km/h
21:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> i always get such a person driving in front of me on the major roads, with no opportunity to overtake...
21:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have the opinion that those cars need to have a yellow flashlight on top of them...
21:58:24 <ln-> are they allowed to go to autobahns?
21:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> because you can hardly determine that the car is not going 100km/h from distance
21:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, on the autobahn you cannot enter if your car is not able to go over 60km/h
21:59:14 <ln-> but the car is able, only the driver is not. :)
21:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, the car is not able also, it has an artificial limitation
22:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, usually with that limitation it's still possible to go 40-50km/h
22:00:35 <ln-> how many gears do they have?
22:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> but it's not actually the physical limitation that counts, it's the limitation written in the car
22:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't know, i have never seen one from the inside
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22:26:39 <Bjarni> <peter1138> i guess bjarni is one of those annoying people who drives at 75 km/h on the motorways <-- actually that would be dangerous to drive so much slower than the other cars
23:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: see, (v1-v2) DOES matter :)
23:27:58 <Bjarni> actually it was more like if the cars drives equally fast, then they will never reach each other. If they drive somewhat close to each other (in speed), then they will close in slowly and leave time for avoidance
23:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> see, there is not much difference if the cars drive 105 and 100 or 165 and 160
23:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause3> this works great, as long nobody driving 120 suddenly switches lanes
23:32:03 <Bjarni> driving is perfectly safe if you take for granted that nobody will ever do anything stupid
23:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> as is flying, or internet surfing, or playing skat
23:35:58 <Bjarni> however I have never heard that anybody has died due to somebody else gaining too high speed on the internet
23:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, but clicking on email attachments and getting their bank accounts cleared out
23:38:00 <Bjarni> are you saying that speed doesn't matter for traffic safety?
23:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, i'm saying it's not an argument
23:39:19 <Bjarni> so traffic safety doesn't matter or ?
23:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> at least not as unconditional as you are trying to put it
23:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> of course traffic safety matters, but just because an accident "may happen" is not a valid reason to not do something
23:40:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you never leave your house, the plane can still crash right onto it
23:40:38 <Bjarni> so you aren't using your seatbelt
23:40:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r10088 /trunk/src/ (industry.h newgrf.cpp): -Codechange: A typo and a code-style
23:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> you're getting stupid
23:40:59 <Bjarni> because it's due to "it might happen"
23:41:31 <Bjarni> I'm trying to follow your logics
23:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause3> it is forbidden to drive without
23:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause3> but it is not forbidden to drive 160km/h
23:43:10 <Bjarni> if the police catches somebody driving 160, then the driver will have to pass a new driving test nomatter the conditions
23:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause3> that's another point why this discussion is getting nowhere, we're basing it on different preconditions
23:44:45 <Bjarni> it's a fact that whenever the speed increases, the number of accidents will increase and the severity of the accidents increases as well
23:44:58 <Bjarni> anyway I need to sleep
23:45:45 <Bjarni> damn, I have to get up in... way to few hours :(
23:46:18 <Bjarni> I guess I will have to do with around 5 hours of sleep.... that's not the right way to start a week >_<
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