IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-05-05
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00:13:35 <elmex> are pre-signals still neccessary for stations?
00:13:49 <elmex> or does the new pathfinder get it right with the tracks?
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00:34:33 <Belugas> pre-signals are maybe not necessary, but usefull.
00:34:47 <Belugas> both normal and pre-signals can do the job, none is "necessary"
00:35:00 <Belugas> and the pathfinder is not the miracle cure,
00:35:08 <Belugas> evenif pbs was still there
01:00:15 <Patrick> "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
01:01:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
01:03:33 <rane> a train can have multiple engines?
01:05:05 <rane> obviously more horse power?
01:05:32 <rane> there's no advantage on flat?
01:06:09 <Patrick> so it recovers faster from being slowed by a red signal
01:06:46 <Patrick> and with RA, some trains don't make thier rated top speed if they have too much weight and not enough engines
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01:35:25 * Touqen realistically accelerates rane into a wall.
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02:30:40 <elmex> dageek #2 went offline :-((((
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02:45:40 <Belugas> ... pointers in delphi, pointers in c, pointers in c++...
02:45:53 <Triffid_Hunter> pointers in perl ;)
03:01:57 <Phazorx> elmex: not balanced between exiting lanes
03:55:47 <Touqen> I guess I should go to sleep. Graduation in the morning.
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08:20:08 <Maedhros> heh, if you stop trains in stations they now say "Stopping, 10 mph"
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09:06:52 <RobertGrammig> considering how little creativity and effort they require, aircraft give way too much money
09:07:04 <RobertGrammig> is there a patch that addresses this?
09:08:01 <TrueBrain> yeah: max_aircraft=0
09:08:58 <Zuu> RobertGrammig: Map size: 128x64
09:10:08 <Zuu> Actually that is quite a fun map-size to play on the net. (with industry competition allowed)
09:11:35 <Zuu> Cause you don't make too much money so exclusive rights are not a problem. And you have to play tactical as geting bad rating at one of three or four towns have a drastical impact.
09:13:26 <RobertGrammig> how do i enable industry competition allowed? is it a grf?
09:14:23 <XeryusTC> people just dont whine when you connect one of "their" industries to your network
09:15:03 <Eddi|zuHause2> no, it is a "politeness" rule, that may or may not be in the server's multiplayer rules
09:19:58 <RobertGrammig> ok sounds fun... never played multiplayer how long does an average session take?
09:20:11 <RobertGrammig> on such a small map with a moderate time span
09:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause2> until you get bored, or fall asleep :)
09:29:42 <setrodox> RobertGrammig, on my server usually a week ;
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09:50:46 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
09:51:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9789 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix (r9770): vehicles didn't get unloaded when 'full load' was specified and the vehicle was already full when it entered.
09:54:40 <Patrick> come for revision 10,000 :)
09:57:24 <Rubidium> we've already past that ;)
09:57:54 <lolman> Rubidium, think he means the 10,000th revision since the move to SVN :)
09:58:21 <_42_> Rubidium: r1 log: Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
09:58:35 <lolman> Okay...move to newer SVN :P
09:59:41 <Patrick> yeah, the real 10,000 passed a while ago
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10:47:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r9790 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
10:47:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: [NewGRF] Skip action 1 sprites in all stages except activation.
10:47:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: This also cleans up some special-case handling of the sprites. Actions 1 and 2
10:47:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: are now not considered unsafe, as an Action 3 (which is unsafe) is required for
10:52:21 <Maedhros> not with that giant macro in it, no
10:53:28 <Ammler> the idea isn't possible with this macro?
10:54:21 <Maedhros> no, the idea might come to trunk, but without a lot of cleaning up, that patch won't ;)
10:55:59 <peter1138> that's the old patch
10:56:14 <peter1138> oh, the new one's at the bottom
10:56:23 <peter1138> hmm, still the macro :/
10:57:31 <Ammler> seems the forum did lock the wrong thread...
10:58:15 <peter1138> the guy requested it or something
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12:42:10 <rane_> Sid Meier's Railroads! any good?
12:43:58 <Wolf01> i've just seen a video of a rail tamper machine at work, nice
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13:59:43 <RobertGrammig> i like programming and got an average background in other languages... how easy or difficult is it to get into writing own patches for openttd if I never did any c++ programming before?
14:00:02 <peter1138> depends on the scope of the patch :p
14:01:01 <rane_> oh, read that somewhere
14:01:45 <elmex> it is mostly C code but i've also seen some parts using C++ features
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14:05:22 <Patrick> openttd was entirely C until an indeterminate number of months ago
14:05:32 <Patrick> some (most?) new development is done in C++
14:05:55 <glx> c++ is used where it's useful
14:06:38 <glx> but it's mainly C compiled as C++
14:14:41 <peter1138> eJoJ: go ahead... ttdpatch source is fun :D
14:15:42 <eJoJ> 1536 byte now uncompressed, first time using direct3d
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15:25:45 <Patrick> yo, any french-speakers here?
15:25:56 <Patrick> I'm just wondering about the relative merits of salut vs. bonjour
15:26:12 <Patrick> they crudely mean the same thing but I'm wondering about nuances
15:29:03 <Patrick> I'm writing a "hello, world" but it's such an overused phrase
15:37:22 <Cipri> Patrick: Kinda like Hello vs Goodday.
15:39:14 <Maedhros> peter1138: are you sure action D special variable 0B is right? shouldn't it be _patches.starting_year not _cur_year?
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15:50:18 <glx> Maedhros: I think you're right
16:09:18 <Wolf01> great, i've just seen that town road layouts patch was added to the trunk
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17:23:33 <Phazorx> hmmm is it possible to enter server and company password from command line?
17:34:23 <Cipri> Phazorx: Nope :( I've requested this already too, but it was too insecure.
17:35:32 <Cipri> yeah, it'd be visible on ps, or in your shellhistory, etc...
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17:45:46 <Phazorx> ps is a problem i guess
17:46:20 <Phazorx> but if one you do not trust has access to your box - you have problems larger than your game password
17:46:45 <Sacro> Phazorx: not so sure, quite a lot of people share servers
17:47:28 <Phazorx> is there a pass param in config ?
17:47:48 <glx> server password is in cfg yes
17:48:16 <Phazorx> i mean client settings
17:48:26 <Phazorx> i want to have full auto script for SB
17:48:44 <Phazorx> sed'ing config is not that hard if there is a place to put the pass there
17:48:58 <glx> company passwords are stored in ram onl
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19:56:19 <Ailure> I have lots of folders starting with ottd on my deskop
19:56:25 <Ailure> I figure I need to clean up one of thoose days
19:56:57 <peter1138> i appear to have 201 newgrfs...
19:57:05 <peter1138> it's easier with svn
19:57:10 <peter1138> just update to whatever, using one dir
19:58:02 <Ailure> You still need to compile
19:59:07 <Ailure> I have compilers and stuff
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20:07:16 * HMage has just learned that he can't install MSVS6 after he had installed msvs2005, even after uninstall of latter
20:09:22 <hylje> visual studio breaks your windows
20:09:36 <SpComb> breaks? You mean enhances
20:09:51 <SpComb> hylje: guess what... a guy from ohio has made three commits to the spbot svn repo today
20:10:23 <HMage> msvs6 doesn't, but I've become sure 2002 and newer does.
20:10:54 <hylje> SpComb: i have an undercover python project too
20:11:19 <SpComb> SpBotII is quite public
20:11:29 <hylje> and to get a svn tracker
20:11:53 <SpComb> ...continue conversations as normal
20:13:44 <SpComb> I'm working on a script to transferr my irssi logs into the db as well
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20:14:39 <UndernotBuilder> question: which feature is the most near to be completed?
20:14:45 <SpComb> and ironing out the bugs... when it's, uh, bug-free, I'll deploy it :P
20:15:21 <UndernotBuilder> I mean the branches/newindustries ones
20:15:34 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit 10000
20:15:41 <UndernotBuilder> not yet released :(
20:15:50 <elmex> somehow the music doesnt work -/
20:16:05 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit 9638
20:16:07 <_42_> Commit by peter1138 :: r9638 /trunk/src/ (6 files) (2007-04-15 16:20:35 UTC)
20:16:09 <_42_> -Feature: Increase cargo types from 12 to 32 and enable newcargo flag in NewGRF loader.
20:16:20 <UndernotBuilder> I write it correctly :S
20:17:15 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit 9900
20:17:22 <_42_> Commit by truelight :: r1 /trunk/ (200 files in 10 dirs) (2004-08-09 17:04:08 UTC)
20:17:25 <_42_> Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
20:17:32 <UndernotBuilder> !openttd commit 9850
20:17:40 <Maedhros> elmex: please tell me you're not running openttd as root ;)
20:18:08 <elmex> lets not get into the dont-work-as-root discussion
20:18:19 <UndernotBuilder> how I say to the bot for giving me the latest revision commited?
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20:19:43 <ln-> elmex: why are you being root?
20:20:33 <elmex> because i'm the only user of my system and want access to everything without su and sudo, and i know what i am doing
20:21:43 <Patrick> yeah, I was naieve enough to say that once
20:21:52 <Patrick> then I had my first reinstall
20:21:54 <SpComb> so instead you open up your entire kernel to any trivial buffer overflow that exists?
20:22:12 <Patrick> SpComb: in all fairness, that's not his main concern
20:22:17 <Rubidium> how usefull, people asking questions and leaving within a minute...
20:22:20 <Patrick> clearly he doesn't care about security anyway
20:22:20 <SpComb> accidental destruction?
20:22:32 <elmex> what is the worst thing that could happen to me: data loss of my homedir. can that happen as any user? answer: "yes"
20:23:06 <Patrick> it opens the door to a lot more frustrating annoyances
20:23:07 <elmex> for accidental deletion i have regular backups
20:23:13 <Patrick> like, oops i accidentally rm'd /usr
20:23:17 <SpComb> backups on what machine?
20:23:31 <Patrick> do you delete over your old backups? you could screw something up without realising it
20:23:32 <elmex> i've never deleted my drive accidentally in the last 10 years
20:23:44 <elmex> SpComb: a seperate machine
20:23:51 <valhallasw> only on purpose elmex? ;)
20:23:58 <Patrick> you know when you see people who absolutely swear blind that they're right and better
20:24:11 <Patrick> and you know with complete certainty that they're just wrong
20:24:13 <valhallasw> or only other peoples drives? *grin*
20:24:27 <Patrick> nothing we say can change his mind, so let's just hope it all fucks up sooner rather than later
20:24:45 <SpComb> well, we could mention things like nopasswd sudo that would be an improvement
20:24:55 <ln-> 23:22 < elmex> what is the worst thing that could happen to me: data loss of my homedir. <--- that's not the worst thing.
20:25:09 <SpComb> is this machine connected to the internet?
20:25:27 <SpComb> guessing it is as you have openttd on it
20:25:40 <ln-> elmex: you run a random program downloaded from the net, and it installs some kind of a hidden rootkit on your computer.
20:25:53 <Rubidium> elmex: corrupting the data in your homedir slowly, so you won't notice it till it is to late (i.e. the backup is already made and the previous backup got lost)
20:25:55 <SpComb> spam bot, amonst other things
20:26:10 <elmex> Rubidium: that can happen as any user, can't it?
20:26:32 <ln-> elmex: you don't know anything about it, but your computer can be used to relay spam, server porn or a intermediate point for attacks to other computers.
20:26:35 <Rubidium> well, www-data, mailserver, sql server etc. do not have write access in my homedir
20:26:55 <elmex> ln-: you dont have to be root to send spam
20:27:15 <ln-> elmex: i know. but hiding is a lot easier with root access.
20:27:24 <SpComb> not being root makes it possible to remove any such programs
20:27:41 <SpComb> if you run malicious code as root, you're screwed. Reformat
20:28:16 <elmex> you are as screwed if you run it as user and it kills your precious data files
20:28:24 <elmex> or sends .ssh to somewhere else
20:28:46 <ln-> that's what backups are for.
20:29:55 <glx> how another user can kill your data files?
20:30:01 <elmex> SpComb: if your securiy was compromised you can't be sure that the intruder didn't get root access
20:31:17 * SpComb doesn't want to continue this argument anymore
20:31:32 <elmex> it's really interesting how other people think what i should dow ith my computer
20:32:32 <ln-> elmex: that's because we already get enough spam.
20:32:35 <elmex> so, what about the music fiels. do they go directly into openttd-0.5.1/gm/ or openttd-0.5.1/data/gm/ ?
20:32:54 <elmex> ln-: you can already send spam as other user. even as www-user
20:33:10 <glx> data is for grfs and intro
20:33:21 <ln-> /root/openttd-0.5.1/gm/, that is.
20:33:39 <Rubidium> but as 'normal' user you cannot make the local server relay mail coming from the internet
20:34:46 <Rubidium> non-root users cannot edit the configuration of your mailserver and restart the mailserver
20:35:07 <elmex> i don't retrieve mail via smtp
20:35:29 <ln-> normal users cannot create a hundred additional user accounts on your computer.
20:35:32 <Rubidium> but a root user can make you accept mail and relay
20:35:56 <Patrick> for a start, talking about how you're safe running as root on a public IRC channel will only make it more likely that someone will root you for fun and profit
20:36:11 <Patrick> if nothing because you sound like a smarmy git who deserves it
20:38:01 <elmex> Rubidium: and so they can send mail from my mail-address, ok
20:38:34 <elmex> Rubidium: they could also just communicate directly with the relay my lcoal relay is talking to via socket
20:38:58 <elmex> would be easier than getting access to my local smtp server which only sends everything to a relay
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20:39:27 <Rubidium> elmex: that relay server is hopefully password protected and such
20:40:10 <Patrick> this is all buggering around with semantics and what-ifs. Point is, if you run many many programs as root, that's not a better thing than running a handful
20:40:16 <Rubidium> furthermore when they turn off the logs on your computer, you can never prove that you didn't send it. The relay server you are using now has (most likely) logging turned on.
20:40:19 <Patrick> more lines of code in which might exist an exploit
20:41:29 <Patrick> zero-day firefox bug. It could happen.
20:41:32 <elmex> hm, the music won't play
20:41:48 <Patrick> the hackers call for the minions to report in. 500,000 windows boxes, they get spam relay $whatever
20:41:56 <Patrick> 1,000 linux users, they get ignored
20:42:04 <Patrick> 20 linux roots, they get rootkitted
20:42:38 <Rubidium> elmex: do you have a midi player, like timidity installed?
20:42:59 <Patrick> yeah, I do the same thing in one of my programs, I have a config file which is actually just python that gets executed
20:42:59 <eJoJ> Automatic pause on start also pauses scenario editor
20:43:07 <Patrick> if the file is world writeable the program refuses to start
20:44:53 <elmex> Rubidium: ah, ok, that was it
20:45:25 <Rubidium> don't cry when OpenTTD lags on your computer
20:45:26 <elmex> Patrick: ok ok, by time i will reinstall my setup and run every program as seperat user. irc, firefox, and so on
20:45:37 <Rubidium> because timidity uses way too much resources
20:45:51 <Patrick> or, you know, you could have a single non-root user you run your programs as.
20:45:57 <Patrick> call it, say, I dunno, "elmex"
20:46:23 <Patrick> no need to fiddle around
20:46:44 <Patrick> just adduser, copy /root to /home/elmex and recursively chown
20:47:00 <elmex> and nothing has changed :)
20:47:18 <elmex> except that i have to typ su or sudo to access my system
20:47:48 <glx> you then need to find 2 passwords :)
20:47:52 <elmex> if someone hacks me while i'm working as user 'elmex' i still can't be sure that there is no rootkit
20:48:08 <elmex> and he can still install keyloggers
20:48:15 <hylje> the infiltrator needs to trick you once more
20:48:23 <hylje> or use an local exploit
20:48:34 <Patrick> elmex: you have a windows mentality
20:48:40 <Patrick> it's not "your" system
20:48:46 <Patrick> only a few operations require root to happen
20:48:51 <Patrick> install or remove software
20:49:00 <elmex> i've bought it, installed it and i'm the only one using it :)
20:49:20 <Patrick> you have this idea stuck in your head that everything, like printing or scanning
20:49:29 <glx> you can install software as non-root, but they are in your home and only for you
20:49:39 <elmex> Patrick: i don't have that
20:49:43 <Patrick> name some things you need root to do every day and I'll tell you how you're wrong.
20:51:23 <elmex> Patrick: i don't "need" root. but it eases some things. eg when developing programs i'm regularily installing it after each change. - it boils down to: i don't want to type sudo or su for anything i need some more access too.
20:52:16 <ln-> why would you need to install it after each change?
20:52:18 <glx> sudo make install is too much for you?
20:52:23 <elmex> only because i don't 'need' to be root doesn't mean i don't have to
20:52:25 <Rubidium> elmex: make it install in /usr/local
20:53:13 <Maedhros> there are at least three of us here; you might as well just ask...
20:53:42 <Zuu> Rubidium: Why not simply /home/elmex/usr/ where he have write access?
20:54:15 <elmex> why not simply /usr/ when i have root access?
20:55:08 <Zuu> elmex: Why do you need to install in /usr/, can't you just install elsewhere where you have write access as local user?
20:55:15 <glx> can't your program run without installing elmex ?
20:56:01 <elmex> ok, i dont need to be root
20:56:07 <Maedhros> ln-: it's not up to us to enforce non-root usage programmatically, imho
20:56:12 <Rubidium> ln-: wouldn't solve the issue
20:56:40 <elmex> enforcing non-root usage is the most broken 'feature' that is in programs
20:57:00 <elmex> if someone wants to start something as root you can assume he knows what he is doing
20:57:20 <glx> many users don't know what they are doing
20:57:42 <elmex> glx: thats why most linux distributions give you a user account per default
20:57:52 <Rubidium> elmex: what you're saying is that when you login into your Windows system as Administrator you actually know what you're doing.
20:58:10 <ln-> Maedhros: well, users that really know what they are doing could comment out the line, but the ones who just don't know better, would be prevented from doing something stupid.
20:58:21 <glx> you can't do anything as user in windows ;)
20:58:22 <elmex> Rubidium: i'm saying that when i'm logging into my linux box as root or do 'sudo' or 'su' - then i know waht i am doing
20:58:46 <Rubidium> elmex: you didn't say that
20:58:55 <elmex> Rubidium: i didn't mention windows
20:59:04 <elmex> Rubidium: and we were talking about root and linux
20:59:27 <Rubidium> so, what's conceptually different between linux & windows and root & administrator?
21:00:48 <eJoJ> elmex : thought about open a terminal as root? that way you don't have to su/sudo everything do you?
21:01:25 <elmex> i guess that windows is different from linux. but either way: logging in as admin/root IMO means that one knows what he is doing. at least programs should assume that, ortherwise the users that know what they are doing are obstructed and prevented from doing things
21:01:53 <ln-> elmex: i think you are a living and walking counter-example of your own claim.
21:01:57 <elmex> eJoJ: oh, i'm opening my temrinals as root, yes
21:02:23 <eJoJ> then what is the problem with running the rest as normal user?
21:05:49 <elmex> i'm have been taking the risks of working as root consciously - but thanks for advising me in fundamental security issues
21:11:07 <eJoJ> What is the current max limit on resolution for ottd?
21:11:34 <Rubidium> 2048x1200 or something like that
21:12:57 <eJoJ> posible to change localy it localy without much problem and still play on servers with different setting?
21:15:38 <Rubidium> iirc changing that could cause desyncs
21:17:02 <eJoJ> Guess I have to try to find out
21:48:28 * Sacro shouts "LETS GO" and opens the hatch
21:51:52 <Rubidium> TooLongAcronymException ;)
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23:05:38 <Ailure> it would be nice if the scenario editor could be used over multiplayer
23:08:08 <rane_> "code it ;)" would be the typical answer here
23:16:02 <Belugas> [17:45] <peter1138> pompiedom <--- not you too :(
23:16:27 <Belugas> [19:04] <Ailure> it would be nice if the scenario editor could be used over multiplayer
23:16:42 <Belugas> let's construct a scenario online ??
23:16:56 <Belugas> otherwise, i don't see benefit of it
23:19:37 <Ailure> Sometimes I wonder how nice it would be if like
23:19:48 <Ailure> four people could work on a scenario at the same time :p
23:19:58 <Ailure> Of course it kinda requires that they know each other quite well or xD
23:20:07 <Ailure> Or at least have trust
23:22:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r9791 /trunk/src/ (openttd.h variables.h): -Fix (r9779, FS#766): add TownLayoutByte to correctly save town layout value
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