IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2007-05-03
⏴ go to previous day
00:00:07 <Sionide> Your 'openttd.grf' file is corrupted or missing!
00:00:07 <Sionide> openttd: /home/sionide/games/openttd/svn/src/gfxinit.cpp:92: void LoadGrfIndexed(const char*, const SpriteID*, int): Assertion `b' failed.
00:00:07 <Sionide> Aborted (core dumped)
00:00:49 <Sionide> it's in the /data/ dir
00:05:14 <Sionide> was missing stuff like elrails
00:07:11 <Sionide> sweet! it's working :D
00:07:42 <glx> it's very easy with linux ;)
00:07:52 <Sionide> the music has just totally screwed up
00:08:38 <Sionide> i'm hearing very weird things
00:09:34 <glx> sound and linux : always funny :)
00:09:41 <Sionide> yeah, don't i know it..
00:09:56 <glx> I remember having hard time to configure sound on my old dell
00:14:14 *** UndernotBuilder has quit IRC
00:21:57 * Sionide makes a massive map full of just towns
00:24:21 <Patrick> passenger destinations?
00:24:26 <Patrick> ooh, ooh, is "very low" density there
00:24:37 <Patrick> some of that was my idea :D
00:24:45 <Patrick> and that's my claim to fame
00:26:46 <Sionide> is it only for buses?
00:27:12 <Patrick> sorry, I was being completely irrelevant
00:27:24 <Sionide> does it not work for trains yet??
00:28:12 <Sionide> probably not enabled it
00:32:39 <Sionide> urgh i've forgotton all my network building skillzzzzz
00:32:44 <Sionide> it's been ages since i've played properly
00:47:05 <rane> i encountered signal related bug in r9769, anyone know if it has been reported?
00:49:47 <Patrick> I found some bugs in the autosignals patch but ... meh
01:30:51 *** Eddi|zuHause3 has joined #openttd
02:17:46 *** Digitalfox[Home] has quit IRC
03:36:56 <DaleStan> rane: I'm afraid my crystal ball can't even figure out what bug you've discovered, much less whether or not it's already been reported.
03:37:00 <DaleStan> rane: If it's on bugs.openttd.org, it's been reported. If not, it hasn't.
04:12:34 *** ThePizzaKing has joined #openttd
05:18:41 *** Smoovious has joined #openttd
06:04:35 *** Frostregen_ has joined #openttd
06:10:14 *** Frostregen_ is now known as Frostregen
06:29:36 *** boekabart has joined #openttd
06:49:42 *** ProfFrink has joined #openttd
06:49:53 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
07:05:29 *** Ammller has joined #openttd
07:06:08 *** Ammller is now known as Ammler
07:06:08 *** ammler_ has joined #openttd
07:27:28 *** TinoDidri has joined #openttd
07:33:03 *** TinoDidri is now known as TinoDidriksen
07:40:32 *** Thomas[NL] has joined #openttd
08:08:17 *** setrodox has joined #openttd
08:12:51 <peter1138> shame about the glitches
08:14:06 <Wolf01> they have no deepth, used without criteria, glitches
08:14:27 <peter1138> all bridges are a visual hack anyway
08:14:32 <peter1138> and tunnel entrances
08:14:57 <Wolf01> yeah, but they (aquaducts) are the most evident
08:15:46 <peter1138> just imagine the aqueduct has a curved bottom
08:16:56 <Wolf01> brr build over tunnel entrances without basetunnels
08:17:43 <Wolf01> yes, but aquaducts, and all other bridges, should be built 2 levels over the terrain IF there is something under
08:18:03 <peter1138> yes, and like all other bridges that restriction doesn't exist yet
08:19:42 <Wolf01> i know that something was tried with the first version of the magic bridges patch, where you were able to build a bridge over a bridge but if under there was not a pillar or you had to find an higher point
08:23:07 *** raimar2 has joined #openttd
08:28:48 <peter1138> the first version is ancient and was abandonned
08:28:57 <peter1138> the second version is what we've got
08:30:09 <peter1138> - Fix: [YAPF] RVs can now find depot they are currently in (thanks Darkvater)
08:30:30 <Wolf01> its around it, it was removed soon
08:30:47 <peter1138> it was merged once, reverted, and then merged again
08:30:49 <peter1138> that's the second version
08:32:28 <Wolf01> i remember in that version you were able to build bridges over stations (single track only, but you were able to place stations under bridges) and over bridges
08:33:11 <peter1138> yes, that stuff was fixed
08:49:40 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
10:03:18 *** KUDr_wrk has joined #openttd
10:14:45 *** boekabart has joined #openttd
10:45:00 <rane> DaleStan: i figured "signal related" would be enough of a detail
10:59:50 <peter1138> usually signal bugs are just 'non-expected' behaviour
11:02:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r9772 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [r9770,FS#761]: under some circumstances loading/unloading didn't work (correctly).
11:13:18 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
11:13:39 <peter1138> rane, so something more specific, perhaps...
11:16:36 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
12:07:08 *** Ammller has joined #openttd
12:07:27 <maddy> Brianetta: you're here?
12:17:40 *** Sacro|Laptop has joined #openttd
12:22:13 *** Ammller has joined #openttd
12:22:38 *** Ammller is now known as Ammler
12:27:18 <maddy> can you reset the game (once more) pls :D
12:30:42 *** RobertGrammig has joined #openttd
12:31:23 <RobertGrammig> Ive got a town with 90% passenger and mail coverage and big good supply but it just wont grow... what possible reasons are there?
12:31:46 <RobertGrammig> each time I make the commercial building funding town size rises for some time but then drops again
12:36:29 <maddy> Brianetta: still there?
12:42:03 *** Progman has joined #openttd
12:42:55 <Patrick> have you got buses driving circles in the town?
12:43:03 <Patrick> or is that the coverage thing
12:48:10 *** setrodox has joined #openttd
12:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> RobertGrammig: towns in snow need food, and towns in desert need food and water
12:51:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> and if you play the nightly, check the patch setting for town growth, it might be set to "none"
12:58:06 *** ProfFrink has joined #openttd
12:58:23 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
13:09:08 <maddy> Brianetta: can you reset the game please?
13:09:20 <Brianetta> I need a little more info than that
13:12:37 *** ProfFrink has joined #openttd
13:12:59 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
13:36:02 <maddy> Brianetta: the server is still starting up?
13:58:40 *** ProfFrink has joined #openttd
13:59:53 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
14:04:51 *** thgergo has joined #openttd
14:13:11 *** ProfFrink has joined #openttd
14:14:35 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
15:55:11 <elmex> is there any official openttd game server?
15:55:55 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: the question is ambiguous
15:56:00 <TrueBrain> that is just the listing of the servers :)
15:56:08 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it sure is, so I answer with the easiest reply ;)
15:56:38 <Phazorx> DEBUG(net, 0, "Trying to execute a packet in the past!");
15:57:06 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: even worse: any server online is most likely an 'official' openttd game server :p
15:57:12 <Phazorx> network.cpp 1201 9769
15:57:14 <TrueBrain> besides the one with a M of course :)
15:57:28 <Phazorx> dont see anything in the logn for that being fixed
15:57:55 <TrueBrain> it doesn't happen often that we fix things that are there to prevent errors
15:59:28 <Rubidium> Phazorx: did a game of you trigger that debug message?
15:59:42 <Phazorx> Rubidium: assert after that
15:59:50 <Phazorx> we have major desync at coopers server
16:00:14 <Phazorx> but i dont see anything in logs affecting entwork
16:00:30 <TrueBrain> when you see that debug line, something is pretty wrong
16:00:55 <TrueBrain> no wonder it fails :p
16:01:55 <Rubidium> but where do the 73, 76 and 79 come from?
16:02:19 <Rubidium> as it cannot be 9773, 9776 etc.
16:04:26 <elmex> hm, sometimes big parts of the langscape change height randomly, is that the AI that tries something?
16:06:57 <glx> AI doesn't pay for landscaping
16:07:23 * peter1138 idly wonders what revision AI landscaping got broken...
16:07:39 <peter1138> or maybe i'm wrong in remembering it not doing that...
16:08:05 <TrueBrain> nah, it always was 'broken'
16:08:10 <TrueBrain> randomly changing landscape massive
16:10:01 <elmex> i;ve once killed the station of an AI that was in progress of building a track from it by buying up land that was freed from his track when backtracking
16:14:00 *** Vikthor has joined #openttd
16:15:11 <Phazorx> Rubidium: it is 9773 9776 abd 9779
16:15:27 <Phazorx> which are pretty recent
16:15:35 <Phazorx> and i dont see entwork code changes inbetween
16:19:49 <Rubidium> how can 9779, 9776 or 9773 desync?
16:20:27 <Phazorx> server just been restarted with 79
16:20:28 <Rubidium> we're only at 9772...
16:20:33 <Phazorx> and we got players dropping already
16:21:16 <Rubidium> when did the desyncs happen?
16:23:32 <eJoJ> 9734 was the first one I noticed it in
16:25:22 <Phazorx> Rubidium: hard to say
16:25:46 <eJoJ> Phazorx: did it not start in the chaos game?
16:26:17 <Rubidium> is only a subset of users desyncing?
16:26:35 <eJoJ> becouse i did not see anything of it in 9712 wich was the one we used before that
16:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause3> <Phazorx> and i dont see entwork code changes inbetween <- desyncs are extremely rarely caused by the network code, usually they are signs of inconsistencies in the game code
16:28:33 <Rubidium> how easily is it reproducable?
16:28:39 <TrueBrain> if we are talking about the error above, it most likely is one client who is fucking things up
16:28:47 <Rubidium> or rather, can you make it reproducable?
16:30:08 <Phazorx> well one of players still cant join
16:30:22 <Phazorx> if i may ask - some of you try to get to coop sandbox?
16:30:27 <Rubidium> he desyncs immediatelly?
16:30:43 <Phazorx> well if it desyncs - play can not join for a while normally
16:30:55 <Phazorx> i got dropped and then desynced 4 times after that
16:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you desync repeatedly right after load, it indicates, that someting is not saved correctly
16:31:48 <Rubidium> what we need to make it anywhere debuggable is a server savegame that you load in the server which desyncs when the client joins (within a few game days/weeks)
16:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> a workaround in that case would be, to save the server game, and restart the server
16:32:47 <TrueBrain> let's start with the basics: are you running a clean checkout?
16:33:02 <elmex> is there a way to see the value ofthe loaded cargo of something? eg. when i have a train with 10 coal trucks i would love an estimation of the income it will bring me
16:33:16 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause3: define saved ?
16:33:26 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause3: we did save upgrade and restart
16:33:39 <Phazorx> at least of players got desynced at 1st join after that
16:33:40 <Rubidium> elmex: that depends on the distances and the time taken to get the cargo there
16:34:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, if that does not help, the problem is deeper than that...
16:34:31 <elmex> Rubidium: hmm, thats right. but isn't the distance defined by the distance to the station to bring the cargo to? and the time could be 'now'
16:34:35 <Phazorx> and same game goes on for a while
16:34:43 <Phazorx> it was desyncing during previos one as well
16:34:57 <Phazorx> less aggressive than on 66 tho
16:34:59 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: are you running a clean checkout? (e.g.: no patches)
16:35:37 <Phazorx> 2 players desync now all time
16:35:44 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: AFAIK - yes
16:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> the next step would be to go backwards in revisions, to check, which revision caused the desyncs
16:35:50 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: make sure please
16:36:11 <Phazorx> asking person who updated 1 sek
16:37:09 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
16:37:32 <TrueBrain> either 'svn diff' or 'svn status'
16:37:48 <hylje> hylje@fishtank:~/Projects/ottd/coop$ svn diff
16:37:48 <hylje> hylje@fishtank:~/Projects/ottd/coop$
16:38:56 <TrueBrain> does it happen with a new game?
16:40:31 <hylje> need to set up another server, etc
16:41:00 <TrueBrain> but it is desyncing ;)
16:41:41 <TrueBrain> so not everyone desyncs?
16:41:46 <TrueBrain> Which OSes do desync, which don't?
16:41:47 <hylje> just me and some others
16:41:52 *** antichaos has joined #openttd
16:41:53 <hylje> i'm guessing linux desyncs
16:42:03 <TrueBrain> please do not guess
16:42:15 <hylje> at least i didnt give that as a fact
16:42:27 <TrueBrain> I ment to say: please do ask to who ever desyncs which OS they are running
16:42:39 <TrueBrain> (and more, if it is PPC or i?68 :))
16:43:37 <eJoJ> win32 as Phazorx say is the one i use
16:44:50 <Phazorx> the link you have - is what i wgeted
16:45:22 <Phazorx> <sandbox> hylje has joined the game
16:45:22 <Phazorx> <sandbox> hylje has left the game (desync error)
16:45:45 <TrueBrain> so, it is a real desync ;)
16:45:51 <hylje> im setting up a precompiled atm
16:47:42 <antichaos> hi, VC is complaining about having to force into to bool in 'bool ful_load = front_v->current_order.flags & OF_FULL_LOAD'
16:48:02 <antichaos> would it be correct to use 'bool full_load = HASBIT(front_v->current_order.flags, OFB_FULL_LOAD);' instead?
16:48:57 <hylje> precompiled seems to work this far
16:49:54 <Phazorx> were you spectating ?
16:50:26 <Phazorx> okay hylje was spectating and got droped as well using binary
16:52:05 <elmex> Rubidium: wouldn't it be enough to display GetTransportedGoodsIncome with the cargo of the train and the station it brings the cargo to (of course only accepted cargo)?
16:53:06 <TrueBrain> I hate newgrf, did I ever told you guys that?
16:56:28 <Osai> TrueBrain: it might be an endian problem imho
16:56:38 <Osai> because at the beginning I saved the game
16:56:41 <TrueBrain> Osai: only if the server is ppc
16:57:05 <Osai> then I downloaded it to my local machine which is ppc
16:57:10 <TrueBrain> Osai: which I doubt :) The reason I asked for the OSes which desynced :)
16:58:05 <antichaos> while the devs are changing the cargo delivery code, would there be any interest in a rewrite of DeliverGoodsToIndustry which does cargo distribution within station catchement area?
16:58:19 <Osai> activated total town replacement in sp (on my mac 10.4.9+ppc G4) and uploaded it again
16:58:36 <Osai> I think that could cause those problems
16:58:43 <Phazorx> Osai: still have orignal save ?
16:58:49 <TrueBrain> Osai: it in fact shouldn't, but of course it is possible
16:59:16 <Phazorx> before and after change
16:59:26 <Phazorx> aside of tgf setting nothing else should be different
17:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause3> diff savegames? sounds like an awful idea :p
17:01:41 <Phazorx> Eddi|zuHause3: it's a save game with no game changes in it
17:01:53 <Phazorx> which i hope will be confirmed
17:02:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, but savegames are compressed
17:02:10 <Belugas> antichaos, do you have a patch for that rewrite of DeliverGoodsToIndustry? Or do you plan for that? Or do you just ask for that feature?
17:02:18 <Phazorx> binary or not settings wont matter
17:02:25 <Phazorx> but compressed is an issue
17:02:46 <TrueBrain> you can uncompress :p But it is an impossible job
17:03:04 <Phazorx> can and impossible in same sentence...
17:03:06 <antichaos> I have a patch that I wrote for industry budgets. But I can do a standalone version
17:04:13 <Belugas> antichaos, please do. I would like to see that :)
17:04:20 <antichaos> But I'm not sure I'm tracking the list of industries near each station in a sensible way
17:04:55 <Osai> we could load the save before I did this change
17:05:12 <TrueBrain> and please do send me the savegame
17:05:21 <TrueBrain> (both, if possible)
17:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> catchment area is a rectangle, right? so you only have to go through the industry list, and calculate distance (maximum-norm)
17:06:12 <TrueBrain> one you got before your changes, one after your changes, and try the one before your changes, and see what happens :)
17:08:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r9773 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix r9772: MSVC warning
17:08:27 <Phazorx> Cipri: were you desyncing as well on SB?
17:10:49 <Phazorx> .sav proully not in white list
17:11:54 <Osai> well I did the upload via sftp
17:21:10 <TrueBrain> Osai: did you load up the _before?
17:21:38 <Phazorx> we loaded last game so far
17:21:44 <Osai> everyone was able to join
17:21:48 <Phazorx> which hylje wasnt able to join
17:21:58 <Phazorx> now he's in w/o GRF change
17:22:18 <TrueBrain> let me know when it desyncs again (if ever)
17:24:10 <Osai> I feel like TTRS is doing the problems
17:24:43 <Osai> actually hylje was able to join the after game (with TTRS)
17:25:39 <Osai> I dunno whether growing cities with more TTRS buildings have an influence on that :(
17:27:07 <hylje> lets just have a ttrs-less game next time
17:28:55 <Belugas> i doubt ttrs would cause it, since newhouses was introduced a "long" time ago
17:29:08 <Belugas> or is it the first time you've tried to play with it?
17:29:09 <TrueBrain> Belugas: means it was just hiding all the time ;)
17:29:18 *** acerbus has joined #openttd
17:29:33 <Osai> no we played with it before
17:29:51 <TrueBrain> you guys really have too many grfs :p
17:29:54 <Belugas> so, it must be something else...
17:30:13 <TrueBrain> Belugas: once there was a bug in newgrf handling that only surfaced with certain buildings and combinations of
17:30:14 <Belugas> TrueBrain, grfs are fun :)
17:30:18 <TrueBrain> so it still isn't conclusive :)
17:30:52 <Belugas> ok... "so, it may be something else" :P
17:31:07 <TrueBrain> it can be almost anything :)
17:31:40 <Belugas> anyway, resuming work@work
17:31:45 <TrueBrain> good luck Belugas :)
17:32:11 <Phazorx> <sandbox> Phazorx has joined the game
17:32:11 <Rubidium> most likely candidates are r9712 till r9734
17:32:11 <Phazorx> <sandbox> Phazorx has left the game (desync error)
17:32:18 <Phazorx> that was instant on paused game
17:32:37 <Phazorx> as soon as we loaded last save
17:32:38 <TrueBrain> what did the server say?
17:32:46 <Phazorx> that's what server said
17:33:10 <Rubidium> it desyncs when the server is paused?
17:33:11 <Phazorx> asking someone to look at it... hang on
17:33:25 <Osai> console said nothing else
17:33:26 <Phazorx> Rubidium: usualy it was desyncing when it wasnt
17:33:37 <TrueBrain> desync check doesn't run when game is in pause :)
17:34:00 <TrueBrain> Osai: which game was that? the _before one?
17:34:04 <Phazorx> makes even less sense now
17:34:16 <Osai> TrueBrain: I loaded the actual game
17:34:33 <Phazorx> rather than one osai experimented with
17:34:51 <TrueBrain> wasn't the _before the one Osai didn't experiment with?
17:35:10 <Rubidium> Osai: can you turn on autosave at 1 month for the server, then run the server till the first client desyncs and give us the last 3 savegames and the day the client joined?
17:36:11 <TrueBrain> how many clients were there? And were they there from the start, or did the desync client join later?
17:37:00 <Rubidium> hmm, even better, give us the savegame of the last client that joined and didn't desync :)
17:37:18 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you do know what you ask them ;)
17:37:40 <Cipri> This still the lots-of-water game?
17:37:42 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yes, running Brianetta server thingy
17:37:51 <Cipri> 'cause there is one odd thing in that game. Those stepped-stations.
17:38:36 <TrueBrain> but I wonder if the clients that desync are the ones that join, and if a client that doesn't desync leaves, he can rejoin or not?
17:38:42 <Phazorx> so... whats the action plan - jon one player, unpause
17:39:05 <Phazorx> and present saves when desyncs?
17:39:20 <Cipri> I blame those stations...
17:39:22 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: can any client _join_ without being desynced? (so not a client that is already in-game)
17:39:37 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: some can some can not
17:39:40 <Phazorx> osai has least problems
17:39:50 <TrueBrain> but is there any client who doesn't hav eproblems when he rejoins?
17:39:56 <Phazorx> rest (5-6 players) get dropped at random
17:40:14 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: last time it worked - i rejoined 4 times
17:40:21 <TrueBrain> and does a client get dropped which joined from the beginning?
17:40:24 <Phazorx> after that it was okay for a while
17:40:28 <Phazorx> then got desynced again
17:40:45 <Cipri> Hey cool, I managed to join this time.
17:40:45 <Phazorx> i tihnk there is less chances of that happeneing
17:41:02 <TrueBrain> I am not asking about chances, and this is pretty important
17:41:13 <TrueBrain> if a client joins right after the server started, does he ever desync?
17:41:14 <Rubidium> Phazorx: basically as much savegames you can get your hand on made by the server, so we might reproduce it
17:42:25 <TrueBrain> Osai: yes to what? :)
17:42:39 <Rubidium> because reproducing it is the most important step; no way to reproduce means that we have to 'guess' which isn't really usefull in thousands (if not millions) lines of code
17:42:46 <Phazorx> i asked him a Q in other channel :)
17:43:02 <TrueBrain> What Rubidium says :)
17:43:11 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: what I try to picture is the timeline of desyncs
17:43:17 <Phazorx> Rubidium: i know that
17:43:20 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: like there is a BIG difference between all clients desyncing at the same time
17:43:24 <TrueBrain> or a new client joining desyncing
17:43:29 <TrueBrain> or clients that are ingame for a long time, desyncing
17:43:45 <Phazorx> all at same time - almost enver happened
17:43:57 <TrueBrain> I seen it thouasand of times but we are talking about THIS case
17:43:57 <Phazorx> and only one who is joining
17:44:11 <Cipri> People always get desynched right after they join.
17:44:12 <Phazorx> after a while, no join no leaves same number of plasyers - sometimes
17:44:15 <Cipri> But once you're in, you're fine.
17:44:31 <Phazorx> i got dropped after an hour last time
17:44:32 <hylje> i get delayed desyncs :p
17:44:38 <Phazorx> and no one joined at same time
17:44:45 <Cipri> Oh. Sorry. I always got/saw instant-desynch's
17:44:57 <Rubidium> hylje: what is delayed?
17:45:26 <hylje> but some time after join when doing something it suddenly desyncs
17:45:27 <TrueBrain> hylje: in game-days, between which range?
17:45:27 <Rubidium> is it after 2 minutes or after 2 hours?
17:45:56 <Rubidium> probably still the same cause (only better hidden)
17:45:57 <Osai> sorry I can't join this game anymore, my laptop is not able to handle the 500 trains
17:46:01 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it smells like some data not saved and not used often
17:46:06 <TrueBrain> or wrongly recalculated
17:46:22 <Osai> I keep loosing the connection
17:46:24 <Phazorx> i got client crash one time at desync
17:46:38 <Phazorx> at line i posted when i came here
17:46:49 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: most likely irrelevant
17:47:06 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: it says sometihng that made sense
17:47:23 <Rubidium> peter1138: are there GRFs that have some internal state that they use for callbacks etc? (i.e. is it possible to have that?)
17:47:25 <Zuu> Rubidium: Last time I counted I count to 50 000 lines of code, but that was probably without sub directories of ./src/ :)
17:47:35 <TrueBrain> what is said was that you received a package to handle on a timestamp that was passed the current timestamp. Doesn't really make sense after a desync
17:47:59 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: it was pretty much during rather than after
17:48:10 <TrueBrain> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 121,923
17:48:11 <Phazorx> but it's just a guess
17:48:15 <TrueBrain> Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 31.00 (372.05)
17:48:19 <TrueBrain> (Basic COCOMO model, Person-Months = 2.4 * (KSLOC**1.05))
17:48:23 <TrueBrain> Schedule Estimate, Years (Months) = 1.98 (23.70)
17:48:27 <TrueBrain> (Basic COCOMO model, Months = 2.5 * (person-months**0.38))
17:48:31 <TrueBrain> Estimated Average Number of Developers (Effort/Schedule) = 15.70
17:48:34 <Rubidium> and SLOC is WITHOUT documentation and/or whitelines!
17:48:35 <TrueBrain> Total Estimated Cost to Develop = $ 4,188,240
17:48:39 <TrueBrain> (average salary = $56,286/year, overhead = 2.40).
17:48:50 <TrueBrain> cpp: 107173 (87.90%)
17:49:25 <Noldo> TrueBrain: what's that?
17:49:37 <TrueBrain> ansic: 14442 (11.85%)
17:49:39 <Rubidium> Noldo: never heard of sloccount?
17:50:11 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD contains 107,173 CPP lines
17:50:14 <TrueBrain> of which 14,438 is table-work
17:50:14 <TrueBrain> all trains and their speed, and more of that shit
17:50:20 <TrueBrain> sloc -> source line of code
17:50:23 <TrueBrain> it counts how big a project is
17:50:23 <TrueBrain> like this project is worth 4M $ ;)
17:50:38 <TrueBrain> and should take 31 years to program for 1 person :)
17:50:44 <glx> we were rich if we were paid :)
17:50:57 <ln-> chris sawyer would be rich if he was paid.
17:51:07 <TrueBrain> he got payed for TT
17:51:22 <TrueBrain> Osai: you have the url to the grf pack?
17:51:44 <hylje> wait, what? we has assembly?
17:52:58 <Osai> all grfs you need are inside
17:55:45 <Osai> how to change save interval via console?
17:56:56 <TrueBrain> Osai: the '_before' you sent me, does it also cause those desyncs?
17:57:08 <Osai> but the game is almost empty
17:57:09 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: does r9707 like a suspect?
17:57:35 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I think that is a big fat: YES
17:58:17 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: osai is resseting server so it does saves
17:58:23 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: depending on the newgrf, that is network unsafe
17:58:27 <Phazorx> how many desyncs toy want in it?
17:58:46 *** Osai is now known as Osai^dinner
17:59:43 <Phazorx> TrueBrain/Rubidium you guys shouild join #openttdcoop and watch the desyncs realtime
18:00:16 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: those things aren't used upon load with those grfs
18:00:41 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: maybe not, but when they store some internal state of the GRF...
18:01:28 <TrueBrain> I totally agree with you
18:05:01 <peter1138> only grf i've seen using what 9707 adds is an unreleased NARS version
18:05:26 <TrueBrain> but the potential desync should be underlined :)
18:05:28 <peter1138> and the data is not persistent
18:05:42 <peter1138> (well it is, but only because i didn't bother clearing it, as it's hardly ever used)
18:06:22 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: is it already desyncing?
18:06:24 <peter1138> besides, there have been odd desyncs way before that :)_
18:06:35 <TrueBrain> peter1138: and there will always be :p
18:06:39 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: clients who joined from the start?
18:06:40 <Phazorx> it could be visit -effect
18:06:56 <Phazorx> 2 clients who joined rigth after restert got dropped right away
18:06:59 <peter1138> large terraforming does it sometimes
18:07:13 <TrueBrain> now see, that is just odd :)
18:07:42 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: looks like visit effect in action we have less issues with Rubidium present in channel
18:08:06 <Rubidium> you were just faking desync ;)
18:08:25 <TrueBrain> (to join the game, that is)
18:08:37 <TrueBrain> lol, gui glitches in network dialog :)
18:08:57 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: join #openttdcoop, they're spamming the password in there ;)
18:08:59 <TrueBrain> cpp_gui hopefully solves most of them :p
18:09:06 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yeah, but I am too lazy
18:14:30 <Cipri> Is it possible to make multilevel stations yet?
18:15:35 <Zuu> Cipri: Yes, but not multiple levels on the same square.
18:16:03 <Cipri> Single track trainstations spanning multiple levels?
18:16:34 <hylje> i dunno htf it was made
18:16:44 <Cipri> I think someone has a hacked client that allows that.
18:16:48 <Cipri> Which might explain the desync?
18:16:50 <hylje> but the trains swap level just fine there
18:17:30 <Cipri> yeah, but /how/ was it made?
18:24:23 <Sacro> so, what are you gonna do now breakpoints have been patented?
18:29:59 *** Osai^dinner has joined #openttd
18:31:02 *** Osai^dinner is now known as Osai
18:34:20 <Ammler> Osai: you linked directly to the zip :(
18:34:41 <Osai> whats the problem with that?
18:34:46 <Ammler> now my Statistics will go wrong
18:35:18 <Ammler> most guys donwloaded 7z until now
18:43:31 <peter1138> i won't touch 7z, heh
18:45:05 <peter1138> hylje: in this case the zip is smaller
18:50:02 <Ammler> peter1138: because I made the zip with 7z
18:50:19 <Ammler> else it would have same sice
19:15:38 *** boekabart has joined #openttd
19:27:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:33:02 *** dihedral has joined #openttd
19:33:11 <dihedral> anybody here good with apache?
19:33:29 <dihedral> i somehow cannot get apache to server *.patch files as plain text
19:33:52 <dihedral> but it will happily server *.sav files as plain text
19:33:57 <dihedral> have already set those
19:37:49 <Phazorx> it must be mime/file type settings
19:37:56 <Phazorx> there is nothing else that affects that
19:37:59 <Phazorx> aisde of file perimissions
19:39:03 *** mikk36[EST] is now known as mikk36
19:40:15 <dihedral> the files are only being served to download
19:40:27 <dihedral> mime file types have already been set to text/plain
19:43:56 <dihedral> TrueBrain: you got 2 the's there >> because of the the newgrf_engine isn’t called, and therefor the game goes wrong.
19:45:28 <TrueBrain> dihedral: fixed; but I am sure there are many more english mistakes ;)
19:46:33 <dihedral> could that same thing have caused the desyncs on the 0.5.1 games?
19:46:50 <dihedral> ir is that a nightly / trunk issue
19:47:07 <TrueBrain> I think thisone is strictly nightly
19:47:14 <TrueBrain> but we will know when we find the cause :)
19:48:19 <TrueBrain> not my department :)
19:58:19 <Ammler> #openttdcoop goes most time with actual nightly and these desyncs aren't there so long, around 1 week.
19:59:19 <Ammler> our admins, where updated the server because of that would know more
20:02:55 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: i read ur article
20:03:04 <Phazorx> i understand your complications and we are willing to help
20:03:18 <Phazorx> however problem of this magnitude should be fixable
20:03:50 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: mostly coop is willing to help :) Sadly enough, more is needed... as currently we are back to the fact that the newgrfs are fucking it up :p
20:04:23 <Phazorx> sounds like more asserts are coming
20:04:37 <Phazorx> which will lead to fixing newgrfs
20:04:53 <Phazorx> however was the problem localized soemwhere
20:04:57 <Phazorx> so we can disable damnt hing ?
20:04:58 <glx> asserts are only useful when you now what goes wrong
20:05:06 <TrueBrain> Phazorx: remove aircrafts :p
20:05:12 <Phazorx> glx: i tihnk asserts are to tell you what goes wrong
20:05:29 <TrueBrain> currently we get different data on the client when we ask the max_speed of an aircraft to the newgrf
20:05:35 <Ammler> TrueBrain: you mean newindustry?
20:05:47 <TrueBrain> where in my story did I use industry?!?!
20:05:57 <Phazorx> TrueBrain: is that new planes specifically or aircrafts in general ?
20:06:32 <TrueBrain> I only see that vehicle_id 5406 has a max_speed of 39 on the server and 15 on the client
20:06:40 <TrueBrain> (which of course results into problems sooner or later)
20:06:49 <TrueBrain> I can also tell you it has engine_type 252 :p
20:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause3> Phazorx: asserts only tell you that something went wrong, it does not really tell you what
20:09:08 <Ammler> TrueBrain: I thought, if there are new problems with newgrf, they have something to do with them
20:09:30 <TrueBrain> Ammler: I just told you it has to do with aircrafts :)
20:09:32 <TrueBrain> to me it looks like a bug in a newgrf, it replies different max_speed for different situations
20:09:47 <TrueBrain> or maybe ttdpatch allows that... I don't know enough about newgrfs :p
20:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause3> wasn't there a commit about aircraft callbacks recently?
20:12:01 <TrueBrain> to come back to something I said 2 hours ago: I hate newgrfs
20:14:04 <Ammler> Does that include newhouses, -cargos and -industries?
20:15:54 <Belugas> must be a <Tr> thing... so does Tron ^_^
20:16:44 <ln-> what doesn't Tron hate? (an honest question)
20:17:03 <Ammler> maybe Im wrong, but the main work from 0.5 to 0.6 is newgrf?
20:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause3> !openttd commit 9671
20:20:09 <_42_> Commit by peter1138 :: r9671 /trunk/src/ (9 files) (2007-04-18 18:37:40 UTC)
20:20:10 <_42_> -Codechange: Implement NewGRF callback 36, which allows changing of various properties which were previously static. Vehicle max speed and train power/te/running costs are adjustable.
20:20:20 <Eddi|zuHause3> that looking like a candidate?
20:20:55 <Ammler> hmm, the date fits our desyncs
20:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> then try before that revision :)
20:23:39 <Rubidium> especially with aircraft
20:25:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> narf... HD full...
20:26:11 *** lolman_ has joined #openttd
20:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd rather have "full HD" :p
20:28:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> there are only two channels that broadcast in HD anyway...
20:29:46 <TrueBrain> and Joost.com doesn't work under wine :(
20:31:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r9774 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
20:31:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2007-05-03 22:30:56
20:31:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 fixed by tucalipe (1)
20:31:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 2 fixed by thetitan (2)
20:31:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 fixed by arnaullv (2)
20:31:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 2 fixed by Hadez (2)
20:31:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 fixed by habell (2)
20:35:26 <Rubidium> Sacro: you can already do that
20:37:20 <Rubidium> at least my laptop has a higher that HD resolution and I can play OTTD full screen
20:41:18 *** Sacro|Laptop has joined #openttd
20:42:50 <Belugas> end of a tremendous working day
20:54:38 *** stillunknown has joined #openttd
20:58:12 *** RobertGrammig has joined #openttd
21:29:43 *** Ammller has joined #openttd
21:32:11 *** Ammller is now known as Ammler
21:33:48 <RobertGrammig> who much of a quick clickfest are openttd multiplayer games?
21:36:26 <lolman> RobertGrammig, think of a single player game...only the AI are human, and actually know how to lay networks :)
21:36:49 <lolman> Oh and add a few desyncs too :D
21:37:17 <Zuu> Depends on the map and the ruleset.
21:46:31 <Rubidium> lolman: what desyncs?
21:46:48 <lolman> Rubidium, I was joking with that :)
21:46:51 <Rubidium> he doesn't look like somebody playing nightlies
22:05:14 *** DaleStan_ has joined #openttd
22:21:40 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
22:35:17 <Immow> I got this copy past mod that works great
22:35:37 <Immow> I am just wondering if it is possible to copy past something bigger then 63 by 63 tiles?
22:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> you should probably ask Frostregen
22:37:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> elmex: let me guess, you own that pink network in the focus :)
22:38:58 <SpComb> yay, python thingies for master-server list fetching and game info fetching
22:39:13 <SpComb> although without date handling
22:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause3> looks nice, except for those half cloverleaf thingies
22:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> they have joins before splits
22:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause3> trains join the main line before the mainline trains split to the side line
22:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> rather "unfold" one of the "leaves"
22:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause3> like it is done on autobahn triangles
22:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, a leaf from the main line to the side line is a 270° curve to the right
22:42:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> if you move the split before the join, do a 90° curve right and a 180° curve left instead
22:45:11 <SpComb> svn://svn.marttila.de/pyottd/trunk/udp.py in case anyone cares
22:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> i said nothing about bigger...
22:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, something like that, minus 90° turns :)
22:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, that looks ok
22:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> next step would be the 2x45° turns on the downhill sections
22:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> which is easy with build on slopes
22:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> just build the diagonal section one tile further, and go downhill parallel to the side line
22:56:26 <elmex> heh, this is on a server, i guessi cant enable build on slopes
22:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> and driving on left scares me :)
22:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, you can do it without, just go downhill a tile further away from the side line
22:59:58 <elmex> i often mix up the sides where the trains drive :-)
23:00:14 <Patrick> I can't stand to make junctions like that
23:00:27 <Patrick> realistic acceleration makes tight corners untenable
23:01:07 <Patrick> bridges on diagonal rails makes a T-junction really simple to do without any slowdown but the problem is that none of the lines can go without signal gaps - 5 or 6 tiles with no signals
23:01:14 <Patrick> so your throughput is reduced anyway
23:03:25 <Patrick> I'd do you an SS but I don't have the game installed here
23:04:07 <elmex> bridges on diagonals would be cool :-)
23:06:00 *** Sacro|Laptop has joined #openttd
23:06:50 <elmex> unfortunately my bottleneck isn't a cloverleaf junction ;-/
23:12:04 <elmex> but i guess that easily fixable with a buffer before the station
23:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> the bridges are in trunk, but not in release
23:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause3> you could do with another entrance track :)
23:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> Patrick: you can sustain longer signal distance by splitting up the line into two, for the bridge part
23:17:10 <RobertGrammig> very low town density on nightly hard is strange... a mistake?
23:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't think that's what he meant
23:19:54 <Eddi|zuHause3> more something like having the mainline diagonal
23:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause3> and the split lines as bridges
23:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause3> why do you always have that weird inverted line around your screenshots?
23:21:31 <elmex> i guess thats a bug with imagemagicks import command
23:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, my openttd just hang
23:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> i was modifying newgrf settings from the main window...
23:30:54 <elmex> that would be an option
23:31:26 <elmex> but bridges severly slow the train more down than a tunnel IMO
23:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> i thought more like this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Vorwald%20Transport,%203.%20Feb%201920.png
23:33:42 <elmex> that would slow down the mainline quite a lot
23:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> the problem with tunnels is, they need more space
23:35:38 <ln-> isn't that title "Gleis- / Bahnhofsbau" a little misleading?
23:36:44 <ln-> there is no Bahnhof in the original, and only one button is related to Bahnhöfe (Bahnhofs?).
23:36:48 <Immow> of buildings trains etcetra they look amazing
23:37:14 <ln-> it could equally well be "Gleis- und Tunnelbau".
23:37:34 <Immow> so when can this but put into action?
23:37:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> Immow: probably still takes a while :=)
23:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: if at all, it is a further specification, i don't see the misleading part
23:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> "it is done when it is done"
23:39:19 <Eddi|zuHause3> that enough for you?
23:39:42 <ln-> "Gleis- / Tunnel- / Brücke- / Bahnhofsbau"
23:39:45 <Immow> I could model something?
23:40:02 <Immow> <-- industrial designer
23:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: i am just lucky you are not a german translator :)
23:44:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> elmex: there is no slowdown if you have fast enough bridges :)
23:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause3> i think there are 600km/h bridges in the newbridges set
23:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause3> but that definitely suffers from long bridges ;)
23:51:51 <Patrick> maybe move the diversion back another tile
23:52:05 <Patrick> make all bridge spans as short as possible
23:52:32 <Patrick> 2 for takeoff and landing, 2 to span the diagonal is a signal every 6 tiles, which isn't too bad
23:53:06 <Patrick> 7 angled track is the minimum length required to have an 8-car train turn without slowing
23:53:12 <Patrick> and 9 angled track for 10-car
23:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause3> that is basically a topological identical version as mine
23:53:17 <Patrick> so scale up appropriately
23:53:33 *** Belugas_Gone has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
