IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2024-03-27
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00:02:16 <_glx_> __karma: well maybe not all of it, but I like the idea of one unique callback usable in different contexts
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04:43:56 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
05:34:48 <silent_tempest> silent_tempest: Is this the wrong place to ask things like this?
06:42:28 <andythenorth> FIRS supplies work just fine with wallclock, because they track deliveries over tick-based windows, not calendar dates
06:42:37 <andythenorth> but the text display refers to 'months'
06:42:42 <andythenorth> not sure what to do about that
06:44:21 <andythenorth> it's more like 'deliver 16 crates of supplies at least once in every 24 consecutive runs of the 256-tick production callback'
07:15:53 <silent_tempest> Hmn. I can't think of a way to statically assert that every value of this enum:
07:15:53 <silent_tempest> ```/** Kinds of files in each #AbstractFileType. */
07:15:53 <silent_tempest> enum DetailedFileType {
07:15:53 <silent_tempest> /* Save game and scenario files. */
07:15:53 <silent_tempest> DFT_OLD_GAME_FILE, ///< Old save game or scenario file.
07:15:54 <silent_tempest> DFT_GAME_FILE, ///< Save game or scenario file.
07:15:54 <silent_tempest> /* Heightmap files. */
07:15:56 <silent_tempest> DFT_HEIGHTMAP_BMP, ///< BMP file.
07:15:56 <silent_tempest> DFT_HEIGHTMAP_PNG, ///< PNG file.
07:15:58 <silent_tempest> /* fios 'files' */
07:15:58 <silent_tempest> DFT_FIOS_DRIVE, ///< A drive (letter) entry.
07:16:00 <silent_tempest> DFT_FIOS_PARENT, ///< A parent directory entry.
07:16:00 <silent_tempest> DFT_FIOS_DIR, ///< A directory entry.
07:16:02 <silent_tempest> DFT_FIOS_DIRECT, ///< Direct filename.
07:16:02 <silent_tempest> DFT_FIOS_FONT_FILE, ///< A font file
07:16:04 <silent_tempest> DFT_INVALID = 255, ///< Unknown or invalid file.
07:16:19 <silent_tempest> against this list of colors that uses it:
07:16:19 <silent_tempest> ``` /** Text colours of #DetailedFileType fios entries in the window. */
07:16:19 <silent_tempest> static const TextColour _fios_colours[] = {
07:16:19 <silent_tempest> TC_LIGHT_BROWN, // DFT_OLD_GAME_FILE
07:16:19 <silent_tempest> TC_ORANGE, // DFT_GAME_FILE
07:16:20 <silent_tempest> TC_YELLOW, // DFT_HEIGHTMAP_BMP
07:16:20 <silent_tempest> TC_ORANGE, // DFT_HEIGHTMAP_PNG
07:16:22 <silent_tempest> TC_LIGHT_BLUE, // DFT_FIOS_DRIVE
07:16:22 <silent_tempest> TC_DARK_GREEN, // DFT_FIOS_PARENT
07:16:24 <silent_tempest> TC_DARK_GREEN, // DFT_FIOS_DIR
07:16:24 <silent_tempest> TC_ORANGE, // DFT_FIOS_DIRECT
07:29:39 <silent_tempest> Hey I can at least see them in the load dialog:
07:31:19 <silent_tempest> I using a custom loading dialog for now.
07:31:53 <silent_tempest> Previewing the font in that blank panel seems like it would be cool. But I feel like that's a "nice to have"
07:33:29 <reldred> I probably wouldnt use bot commands in this channel, as it's mirrored over to the openttd IRC channel.
07:33:46 <silent_tempest> Discord bots I hate you. Is discord actually tracking the number of messages I send to channels why?
07:33:53 <silent_tempest> reldred: Yeah they uh
07:34:13 <silent_tempest> Don't give you any warning that it's not a "only you will see this message"
07:34:22 <silent_tempest> And I can't delete it
07:34:40 <reldred> I wasn't aware we even using ProBot on this server.
07:34:52 <silent_tempest> I've literally never seen that bot before
07:37:03 <silent_tempest> I doing a good job of distracting everyone from the work on the font that I've been doing. :/
07:38:52 <reldred> Lmao, most of the devs are in euro/us timezones so they''re all asleep or at work
07:40:22 <silent_tempest> That would explain why this is spelled the way it is:
07:40:22 <silent_tempest> `` _string_colourremap[1] = raw_colour ? (uint8_t)colour : _string_colourmap[colour]; ``
07:40:42 <reldred> You mean correctly? 💀
07:42:32 <silent_tempest> Do you say it the same as we do?
07:43:46 <reldred> Well I'm in Australia so our accent depending on which state you're in can vary from british sounding to certain parts of america
07:44:37 <silent_tempest> Why did you give up on it?
07:44:55 <peter1138> Because there's not much point in a font chooser as we've got our custom font.
07:47:36 <silent_tempest> sizing that choice is definitely needed
07:47:54 <silent_tempest> I cannot make out the detail font.
07:48:10 <silent_tempest> there is the font console command but... Me and that command are not friends
07:48:49 <silent_tempest> TBH I was modeling my attempt after the command which allows you to choose fonts and resize them
07:49:07 <silent_tempest> choosing a font didn't seem like a bad idea to me at the time
07:49:13 <silent_tempest> And honestly it still doesn't
07:49:53 <silent_tempest> OpenTTD has lots of languages. I have no idea if the custom fonts actually have of the glyphs
07:50:12 <silent_tempest> If they don't then adding a font chooser is one way to fix that issue for some users
07:50:13 <peter1138> They don't have CJK, that's true.
07:51:12 <silent_tempest> To be totally honest though I've gotten motivated by not being able to read the detail font. And then hearing the same exact complaint from my Father when I tried to get him to play this with me.
07:51:39 <peter1138> It's like the big slider to scale the interface isn't even there.
07:52:05 <silent_tempest> I have scaled up the interface...
07:52:13 <silent_tempest> It's not a cure-all for the fonts
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07:53:03 <LordAro> it's not that we don't want a font selector, it's more that the need to add one has deminished
07:53:23 <peter1138> Actually I genuinely don't want a font selector.
07:54:21 <LordAro> i suppose it is pretty rare that games have a font picker
07:54:35 <peter1138> It is such a bizarre thing to have in a game.
07:55:15 <silent_tempest> But I'm... trying to think of another game where the user can supply so much info the UI
07:55:39 <silent_tempest> You can use a custom town name list
07:55:56 <silent_tempest> Maybe it's not needed
07:56:14 <andythenorth> why don't we add css support?
07:56:19 <andythenorth> I'm moderately serious
07:56:27 <andythenorth> font picker is a nope
07:56:30 <peter1138> Because OpenTTD isn't a browser.
07:56:35 <LordAro> it's not feasible for openttd-sans to support every character that newgrfs might use
07:56:36 <andythenorth> my web page doesn't offer a font picker
07:56:40 <peter1138> And it's not a DeskTop Piublisher either.
07:56:56 <LordAro> so there will always have to be a fallback
07:57:06 <andythenorth> remember The DeskTop Publishing Revolution?
07:57:18 <LordAro> and at that point, why not add a gui for it?
07:58:36 <silent_tempest> There is already a font chooser, it's just a hard to use console command
07:58:53 <silent_tempest> How do we get to a consesus here?
07:59:05 <LordAro> the general thought is that that command was a mistake
07:59:26 <LordAro> though for me, just its usage, rather than its concept
07:59:29 <peter1138> Anyway, that was my branch, it needs work if it's to go forwards. But it does use the IMHO correct approach of listing fonts by platform method (except macOS because nobody uses macOS...) rather than a file picker.
07:59:48 <LordAro> silent_tempest: that's the great thing, you don't :)
08:01:25 <peter1138> Consensus isn't needed, I'm just one person 😉
08:02:01 <peter1138> The preview stuff was because of feedback, but it makes it quite complex, and even then people still had "other ideas"
08:02:06 <ahyangyi> As long as the default fallback fonts make sense I'm OK
08:02:30 <silent_tempest> Every single line of code incurs a maintenance cost on all futures. It's not wrong to advocate against un-needed change
08:02:49 <peter1138> I can guarantee that listing each font by name it is own font is a terrible idea, but that was one suggestion given to me...
08:03:11 <silent_tempest> Yeah preview pane seems okay?
08:03:19 <silent_tempest> But that seems like eye-rape?
08:03:32 <ahyangyi> peter1138: I think even Microsoft Word special cases symbol fonts
08:03:50 <ahyangyi> otherwise nobody will be able to tell Wingdings 2 from Wingdings 3
08:03:51 <locosage> regardless of vanilla decisions font picker is always welcome in cmclient
08:04:34 <peter1138> This isn't a vanilla decision, by the way, it's just one person's opinion.
08:06:37 <peter1138> Urgh, stupid system, I can't take a picture of Libreoffice's font list because apparently taking screenshot hotkeys don't work when a dropdown menu is open... 😮
08:07:31 <peter1138> This thing grabs global focus, even the window manager hotkeys for things like switching tasks don't work.
08:07:39 <ahyangyi> screenshot tools with a 2 second delay helps with many weird UI interactions
08:08:19 <silent_tempest> Wow holy shit opening the font drop down even blocks me using the super key some how
08:08:55 <peter1138> Don't implement that in OpenTTD 😄
08:10:16 <locosage> well, there will be time for a decision eventually if this goes on
08:10:21 <andythenorth> can we bridge over stations yet?
08:10:37 <peter1138> Yes... underneath it.
08:10:37 <locosage> and seeing negative opinions from core devs early on can be quite discouraging 😜
08:10:58 <silent_tempest> Yeah but the sunk cost fallacy is super motivating. Lol
08:12:00 <silent_tempest> Also to be fair it's not super obvious to me if OpenTTD is actually using the custom fonts that it's supposed in a local build. A problem the installed game might not run into
08:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i think my screenshot tool has a "take a screenshot in X seconds" feature, so you can press that button and open the dropdown afterwards
08:12:57 <andythenorth> peter1138: yeah, these new underneath bridges work well
08:13:02 <peter1138> Running Gnome, so that's a case of "which screenshot tool did you intend to run..."
08:13:34 <silent_tempest> Serious question though OpenTTD does or doesn't support OSX?
08:14:17 <peter1138> It does try to support macOS.
08:14:35 <peter1138> I just didn't get as far as looking for which API it should be using this week to list fonts.
08:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause> OSX has this habit of not wanting to be supported
08:15:09 <andythenorth> macOS support wfm
08:15:36 <peter1138> It would all be a lot simpler if we settled on only using freetype and fontconfig.
08:16:22 <ahyangyi> Eddi|zuHause: Me too, seems KDE tends to make life easier 😛
08:16:22 <peter1138> I wonder what revision of the game that station/bridges branch is.
08:16:43 <peter1138> r24889. That's oddly late.
08:17:11 <silent_tempest> Can you do bridges over bridges in whatever client that is?
08:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> bridges over bridges is a relatively simple change. because it's specifically disabled just to avoid graphics glitches
08:19:07 <silent_tempest> I'm weird in the sense I came from playing the OG Transport Tycoon to trying to play OpenTTD having never played TTD back in the day. It blew my fucking mind when I saw OpenTTD's allows you to build bridges over diagnol things...
08:20:35 <_jgr_> andythenorth: Last time I checked, no
08:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> back when "bridegs over everything" was introduced, we had loooong discussions whether we should allow bridges over bridges, and invest time into solving the graphics, or disable it and fix it later.
08:21:22 <ahyangyi> Did jgrpp change after the last time you checked? 😛
08:22:16 <ahyangyi> ( But I think andy might be thinking of the JGRPP feature of bridge over stations )
08:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> "did JGRPP change behind JGR's back" is kind of an odd question to ask :)
08:22:42 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause: Only perpendicular bridges.
08:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i don't think stacked bridges are much harder
08:24:02 <peter1138> Finding the start/end tile might be a problem/
08:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but you just follow the chain of "has bridge above" flags and collect bridge heads until the flag stops
08:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> updating on construction/destruction might be more elaborate
08:27:09 <wensimehrp> silent_tempest: It would actually be better if I can load a font group at once
08:27:43 <silent_tempest> Like Bold/Regular/Italic?
08:27:59 <wensimehrp> not very sure how to describe this...
08:28:09 <peter1138> Two styles of button layouts for decreasing/increasing a value.
08:28:33 <wensimehrp> silent_tempest: maybe this?
08:29:39 <peter1138> There are more of the second style than the first, but then again most of those are in the advanced face window...
08:29:46 <ahyangyi> Though what VSCode actually allows you to provide is a fallback sequence
08:30:28 <wensimehrp> say, if i want to use OpenTTD Sans but the language I'm using is not supported by the font, I can use a secondary font to fill the unsupported part.
08:30:47 <peter1138> silent_tempest: hopefully my branch can provide inspiration on how to list fonts 🙂
08:31:06 <peter1138> (As in the technical side, the UI side is up to you)
08:31:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the only reason why we even need custom font settings is because we support a million languages
08:31:24 <peter1138> We just need to clone Zephyrius.
08:31:48 <ahyangyi> good point -- a fallback sequence sounds quite mandatory if we want to specify a CJK font and also OpenTTD Sans for latin
08:31:50 <peter1138> Multiple Zephyris's's's's can each work on a smaller part of the CJK space.
08:31:55 <silent_tempest> peter1138: The Left/Right variety makes sense when just scrolling through a list of items. The Up/Down implies you raise/lower the values. But OpenTTD doesn't actually do that consistently? Like the Service interval dialog field for vehicles raises and lows the interval but uses the left/right arrows
08:32:30 <ahyangyi> I don't think extending OpenTTD Sans to CJK is feasible though. Unless we just merge in a customized variant of NotoSans
08:32:47 <peter1138> Yes, I'm wondering about doing it consistently, and which way to prefer 😄
08:33:09 <peter1138> Cloning Zephyris probably isn't feasible, no.
08:33:46 <wensimehrp> Noto Sans CJK - JP? KR? zh-TW? zh-HK? zh-CN?
08:33:57 <peter1138> But OpenTTD does not support fallback fonts at all, and doing so is out of scope of a font selector. (But does affect it)
08:34:08 <wensimehrp> CJK character is problematic
08:34:33 <peter1138> Transliterated translations? ;p
08:34:40 <peter1138> That would be so bad.
08:35:18 <Eddi|zuHause> if there's no fallback system, how do the custom glyphs (plane, train, etc.) get added with custom fonts?
08:35:21 <ahyangyi> ahyangyi: ^ this is actually what I meant -- "handling fallback correctly for CJK is hard"
08:35:44 <silent_tempest> As far as I can tell
08:36:16 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause: One specific custom-use unicode range is mapped to the sprite font.
08:36:18 <silent_tempest> When you attempt to load a font. It does a glyph scan and it finds that the current font is missing a glyph it just goes back to the using the sprite font
08:36:35 <peter1138> That scanner is way to ... brutal.
08:36:49 <peter1138> One glyph missing? Pfff, no font for you!
08:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> so currently the sprite font is the fallback
08:37:02 <silent_tempest> But like it's more complicated than that. As there's calls to the "CheckForMissingGlyphs" function all over the place
08:37:14 <silent_tempest> Yeah Sprite is the fallback
08:37:29 <silent_tempest> But I saw a comment in the code some where saying that even the sprite font can't handle every glyph
08:37:30 <peter1138> It's a fallback but only for that one specific unicode range.
08:38:26 <ahyangyi> Yeah, in the CJK parts of the world, an application allowing to choose two fonts is the norm. For example, in Word, we select two fonts for "title", then two fonts for "body text"...
08:38:35 <peter1138> The sprite font is limited to unicode up to U+FFFF (no particular reason for that, it could be extended) but having a CJK sprite font is no less of a task than having a CJK OpenTTD Sans.
08:39:09 <ahyangyi> I do think that's a good argument for a fallback sequence, or at least a two-font selection mechanism
08:39:37 <peter1138> I don't think anyone is against having a proper fallback system.
08:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> in openttd we need 4 fonts, small, medium, large and monospace
08:39:51 <peter1138> Just there isn't one, and it's a fairly complex thing to implement.
08:40:26 <peter1138> OpenTTD hasn't been ported to an Electron app either.
08:40:41 <wensimehrp> peter1138: Unifont-JP?
08:40:42 <ahyangyi> Eddi|zuHause: admittedly, for most non-rasterized fonts, small/medium/large are just the same font with different sizes
08:40:48 <wensimehrp> no actually just Unifont
08:41:12 <ahyangyi> and monospace doesn't make sense in all scripts
08:41:22 <ahyangyi> (but "typewriter" makes sense)
08:41:36 <ahyangyi> or "tabular/aligning numbers"
08:41:55 <peter1138> monospace is a weird thing that got implemented on the side to be able to read text files in game. As if text files need to be monospace.
08:42:22 <silent_tempest> It's only used in the like the readme and licence gui's right?
08:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but some people wrote textfiles to be viewed as monospace.
08:43:15 <_zephyris> Eddi|zuHause: Bridges over bridges is (presumably) mostly a newgrf bridge problem. If bridges could set their height above bridge deck, then that solves the problems, right?
08:43:16 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently it was easier to implement a monospace font than to add html support for tables and stuff :p
08:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> _zephyris: not quite, you also have pillar conflicts
08:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> _zephyris: also you have cases of "normally, this graphics needs X heightlevels, but if there's a bridge in Y height levels, i could switch graphics to ..."
08:45:03 <peter1138> That brick viaduct that was popular back in the day would cause a few issues 😄
08:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you need to check space above and below the bridge
08:45:53 <_zephyris> Well, then add flags for allow bridge over and allow bridge under 😉
08:46:15 <_zephyris> Just thinking by analogy to the objects spec, where you can flag bridgeability and set height
08:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and still, with stacked bridges you need custom pillars
08:46:56 <reldred> Didac was working with stacking bridges. Not sure how far he got.
08:47:21 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine a stacked suspension brige. you need one bridge to suppress drawing the suspension
08:47:47 <reldred> I'd suggested that simply cropping the sprite at the relevent z level might suffice for that.
08:48:29 <reldred> But it would need a bridge set graphics ideally made for it.
08:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd much rather have bridges constructed from "modules" instead of stretched from one bridge head to the other. so you can make a bendy elevated rail by stitching short modules together (with a height restriction), or you can make higher bridges from longer modules (like a suspension)
08:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but that requires significant map changes
08:52:40 <reldred> significant map changes!
08:52:52 <peter1138> That's an issue with designing NewGRF Bridges. If you design it for current abilities, you get a very limited feature that is difficult to change.
08:53:12 <peter1138> If you design it for things you might want to support, you end up having to do things that may never be used...
08:53:14 <silent_tempest> peter1138: When Chris Sawyer releases TTDDD?
08:53:28 <peter1138> It'll be a mobile-only game and too fiddly to use.
08:56:52 <peter1138> Laying track/bridges like Hornby pieces.
08:57:01 <peter1138> Is that a 1st curve of a 6th curve?
09:10:46 <andythenorth> bridges are just station tiles, right?
09:10:56 <andythenorth> is everything a state machine?
09:11:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't parse HTML with a state machine
09:12:13 <andythenorth> surely you can if you have enough nested state machines?
09:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> also, that couldn't decide whether it wanted to be a cable-stayed or a suspension bridge
09:30:00 <peter1138> "But I like it looking like that"
09:40:49 <_zephyris> peter1138: Welll... better bridge newgrfs is something I'd really like. So if I can make some graphics!
09:41:47 <_zephyris> Better NewGRF bridges is something I'd love, I can provide test graphics
09:42:21 <_zephyris> I suspect worrying about how base graphics suspension bridges behave isn't worth the worry - if allowing bridge stacking is a newgrf feature then it circumvents lots of issues
09:42:47 <_zephyris> Can always make opengfx+ bridges, with support for fancy bridge features
09:43:43 <peter1138> There is an old PR for newgrf bridges but it doesn't address any of the what-ifs, only custom graphics for the things bridges can do now.
09:44:32 <_zephyris> Do you have a link for that? IIRC it lacked any provision for newgrf road/rail
09:45:22 <peter1138> Not off hand, its on github of course.
09:49:40 <_zephyris> Anyway, I actually came here to agree that more transparency about how font selection/fallback works would be good. Then got distracted by bridges!
09:51:29 <reldred> bridge bridge bridge bridge
09:51:40 <peter1138> While the font console command is less than ideal, I don't really understand how it's hard to use.
09:51:59 <reldred> console commands are natural to folks like us
09:52:07 <peter1138> Is it just because nobody grows up with command lines these days?
09:52:10 <reldred> however we are very much the exception not the rule
09:52:28 <reldred> nobody does, it an almost totally alien concept to most
09:52:53 <LordAro> for the last... 30 years?
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09:53:17 <reldred> and even before that, folks just... didn't buy a computer.
09:56:58 <__karma> _glx_: Alright I'll take a look at it
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10:03:22 <peter1138> One issue I found with the font command is you can't select a font that starts with a number, because it thinks that's a size 🙂
10:20:30 <LordAro> it tries to do too much, imo
10:49:22 <andythenorth> reldred: eh what now?
10:49:43 <andythenorth> there is a specific cohort of long term minecraft players who are in and out of console constantly
10:49:50 <andythenorth> might very well not be 'most'
10:50:12 <reldred> I'd still say that's a tiny fraction of the eight billion plus people in the world
10:50:26 <reldred> so tiny a fraction as to be statistically insignificant
10:54:21 <reldred> I routinely deal with IT managers, people over the age of forty, who struggle with a concept as basic as pinging a hostname.
10:55:02 <reldred> (and then I run into receptionists and finance people who couldn't give a shit about computers but can still follow instructions to do absolutely hellish things in wintel environments. go figure.)
11:19:31 <andythenorth> reldred: I have found repeatedly that non-IT-literate admin staff more reliably produce rote IT work
11:19:46 <andythenorth> computer "enthusiasts" are just about the least useful
11:20:55 <xarick> eww tt-forums.net is being overrun with ads...
11:21:35 <peter1138> It's always had ads, but if there's anything obnoxious let orudge know.
11:21:41 <reldred> andythenorth: I’ve even had them display quite a bit of creative problem solving. One of my favourites was an executive assistant in her fifties. Actually managed to teach me new tricks on one of the IP PABX products I used to look after.
11:22:20 <reldred> Then I quit working for that company anyway
11:22:52 <xarick> every other reply has a giant add in it... that's novelty to me
11:23:54 *** gelignite is now known as magla
11:28:18 <xarick> right in the middle of topic listing, that's lol
11:30:55 <LordAro> that does seem a bit on the obnoxious side
11:31:09 <LordAro> far too common on the internet these days
11:32:50 *** magla is now known as gelignite
11:41:25 <peter1138> Uh, OBS is running but its interface is missing 😮
11:42:15 <peter1138> Anyway, yeah, speak to orudge, it's not really anything to do with us.
11:44:23 <peter1138> I'm only getting a banner advert at the top. And that is annoying enough :p
11:45:11 <peter1138> Ah, after a few reloads they appear.
11:45:51 <xarick> speaking of OBS, it has a hard time detecting OpenTTD capture area
11:46:11 <xarick> the top part of the toolbar is missing
11:47:11 <peter1138> Resize the source to fit.
11:47:11 <_glx_> Capture the window, don't let it auto detect
11:48:02 <xarick> doesn't seem exclusive to OBS, sometimes running openttd in fullscreen does the same
11:48:11 <peter1138> Source -> Transform -> Fill Screen.
11:48:20 <peter1138> Just learn how to use your software.
11:49:38 <_glx_> Openttd in fullscreen is not a borderless window, it's a real fullscreen from the old time
11:50:40 <LordAro> Windows photos can open it
11:53:00 <xarick> Fit to Screen didn't fix it
11:54:02 <peter1138> Is OBS assuming there's a window decoration there or something, heh.
11:54:13 <peter1138> Anyway, this is still not the fault of OpenTTD.
11:55:58 <xarick> changing Capture Method to windows 7 and up seems to fix it, but the colours are brigther
11:58:11 <_glx_> Colours seem fine too me
11:59:42 <xarick> windows 10 (1903 and up) halves the toolbar in half
12:00:26 <xarick> i resized in both occasions...
12:06:49 <peter1138> Hmm, is it breakfast?
12:07:08 <xarick> stupid scenario editor
12:09:12 <xarick> I can't set up League Tables from within the scenario editor for "reasons"...
12:20:42 <xarick> if i start a new game with League Tables
12:21:02 <xarick> if I setup League Tables on a scenario and then start from the scenario, I get a crash
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12:34:41 <xarick> There's a difference of 1 loop for some reason
12:40:44 <_glx_> On newgame, GS runs for some ticks after map generation
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12:59:02 <peter1138> Can we make starting a scenario behave the same way?
13:04:23 <tramman> hi everyone, I am working on a new solution to the yapf issue I've discussed previously. When testing it with my local build version, I noticed that fast forwading seemed a bit slower compared to a pre-built downloaded version. Then I disabled my changes and re-built it and it was still slow. Is it normal that a local build will be less performant?
13:07:32 <andythenorth> yes, debug build vs release
13:08:13 <andythenorth> `cmake .. DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release` is what I use to get a release build
13:10:09 <tramman> ok thanks andythenorth . I was thinking my code was a CPU hog but it's probably OK!
13:15:39 <xarick> I think there is a cmake error, or visual studio UI error which sets true instead of "ON"
13:20:36 <_glx_> True, on, 1, ... It's the same
13:31:33 <peter1138> Also asserts will slow it down a bit, disabling asserts is a different option.
13:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause> True, False, FileNotFound.
13:37:53 <silent_tempest> peter1138: I'm competent in command lines. My issue was several. The command prints a formatted string that you can't use to resize the existing font.
13:37:53 <silent_tempest> The directories the command will search doesn't include ./baseset where a cmake build puts the font files during a build. None of these issues you get any feedback for. I had to debug the application to learn all of this. A user types the command sees it fail and gets no explanation for what happened.
13:41:21 <peter1138> The default font is selected by setting `font medium ""`, no path or name necessary.
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13:47:52 <andythenorth> cargo view has this of course 🙂
13:47:57 <andythenorth> and 'link to smallmap'
13:48:10 <andythenorth> but should smallmap directly have a cargo filter also?
13:49:05 <peter1138> It says "sprite font" instead of "default font" because it's not been updated.
13:52:55 <silent_tempest> Before I run any command I have this:
13:54:33 <silent_tempest> Okay completely omitting any name seems to let me change the size:
13:55:33 <silent_tempest> The default config value is empty string thought right?
13:57:46 <silent_tempest> Okay between the "Works version" and this one:
13:58:22 <silent_tempest> I reset the confight lines to emptry string and deleted the "OpenTTD-Sans.ttf" file in the ./
13:58:29 <silent_tempest> And now it's using the sprite font
13:59:28 <peter1138> With default settings. The "mono" font isn't initialized until it's first used.
13:59:42 <silent_tempest> I know it's failing to find that font file
13:59:49 <peter1138> silent_tempest: This is not the sprite font.
14:00:10 <silent_tempest> what happens when you resize it?
14:00:23 <peter1138> It's not failing to find the monospace font, it's just not filled in until a a text file is viewed.
14:02:31 <_glx_> yeah mono is not loaded at all unless really needed
14:02:46 <merni> peter1138: This has confused me more than once.
14:04:10 <_glx_> but I can understand how font handling can be confusing
14:05:28 <_glx_> like failing to use specified font for medium/small/large via command affects the 2 other fonts
14:08:29 <silent_tempest> It should say 48 but it says 30
14:09:27 <peter1138> Default medium font size is always 10.
14:09:38 <silent_tempest> I set it to 16
14:09:56 <peter1138> The medium font size, when the medium font is set to the default font "", is 10.
14:10:41 <_glx_> basically when using default, size and aa are ignored
14:10:42 <peter1138> > Set <name> to "" for the sprite font (size and aa have no effect on sprite font).
14:10:57 <peter1138> Substitute 'sprite' with 'default', that needs to be updated.
14:11:30 <silent_tempest> Can you resize it using the font console command?
14:11:44 <peter1138> Not if the font is ""
14:11:53 <peter1138> That's what it says, and what I've been saying.
14:12:04 <merni> Tbf it says it in a rather confusing way.
14:12:28 <peter1138> It says it in that way because when it was written it was just the sprite font as the default truetype font didn't exist.
14:12:41 <_glx_> I tried my best when I implemented the command
14:14:46 <merni> Could someone explain what the two different settings (one in brackets and one outside) actually mean?
14:15:03 <_glx_> in bracket is the requested setting
14:15:52 <merni> What does requested mean there?
14:15:53 <_glx_> (from cfg or command use)
14:16:09 <silent_tempest> _glx_: I get it. I'm trying to help not blame.
14:16:29 <silent_tempest> You can input any non-sense a request there
14:16:50 <LordAro> output seems to try to be vaguely machine readable for some reason?
14:17:04 <LordAro> no reason why i can't just output full descriptions
14:17:36 <merni> _glx_: and one more question... how are the "actual" font sizes determined from the requested one? I thought it was just multiply by interface scale but it doesn't seem to be?
14:17:50 <merni> silent_tempest: Yeah if the font is not found it falls back to default (or might be sprite font)
14:17:54 <_glx_> it is multiplied by interface scale
14:19:40 <merni> silent_tempest: ah ok I was just getting confused by this screenshot
14:20:05 <silent_tempest> Yeah it's not working there.
14:20:22 <merni> silent_tempest: No, it's working, just not in a very user-friendly way
14:20:50 <silent_tempest> It isn't though. it should say 48 but says 30 right?
14:20:56 <_glx_> I think in case of "breakForMe" it should fallback to "OpenTTD" one and not "sprite"
14:21:05 <merni> If you set `font medium 16 aa` that is equivalent to `font medium "" 16 aa` which is equivalent to `font medium "" 10 aa` because when you set the font as `""` it ignores the size
14:21:44 <_glx_> no, `font medium 16 aa` just keeps the current font
14:21:58 <merni> This command and its docs need a bit more thought than I can give it tonight, time to push it to the weekend!
14:22:33 <_glx_> if it was "Arial" it will still be "Arial"
14:22:39 <merni> _glx_: Right but in this case the current font is `""` ...?
14:23:28 <_glx_> yes if current font is "" your flow is correct
14:24:35 <silent_tempest> So just to confirm my understanding here:
14:24:35 <silent_tempest> the font command won't resize the font if you don't have an actual setting that you gave it?
14:24:43 <peter1138> merni: There's some magic to do with finding a default size, somewhere.
14:25:18 <merni> silent_tempest: Either you need to specify an actual font name or have specified one before.
14:25:41 <merni> peter1138: Right, all this should come into the documented realm. Gonna be fun in the weekend.
14:25:51 <peter1138> merni: The way the "usage" line is output is normal documentation style for command line parameters with optional parts.
14:25:55 <_glx_> it's not directly a command limitation, same happens if you manually edit cfg before starting
14:26:26 <silent_tempest> merni: Thanks. I've felt so crazy here. 🙂
14:26:29 <merni> peter1138: The usage line is fine. The explanation after that isn't complete
14:26:43 <_glx_> the command just tries to wrap around cfg without requiring closing, edit, start
14:26:45 <merni> And the output of `font` (to show current config) is barely human readable
14:26:53 <merni> Which is not blaming anyone
14:27:00 <merni> But just saying it can be improved
14:27:08 <peter1138> It's just output in a tabular form.
14:27:26 <merni> Sure, but without anything to show what the different parts mean
14:28:01 <_glx_> initially the bracket part was not even present
14:28:03 <merni> `medium: "OpenTTD Small, Regular" 18 aa ["" 10 aa]` isn't exactly understandable
14:28:42 <merni> No, OpenTTD Small is a thing :p
14:28:56 <merni> idk why you would set the medium font to that but you could :p
14:29:20 <silent_tempest> Yeah it's a font but not the default for medium
14:29:29 <_glx_> you should not get Small for medium when requesting default
14:29:40 <merni> Right, I was just typing it manually lol
14:29:45 <_glx_> default fonts are hard coded
14:31:34 <_glx_> anyway the "breakForMe" behaviour looks like a bug too me (something missed when adding default ttf support)
14:32:36 <silent_tempest> What should happen there?
14:33:02 <_glx_> it should use default font instead of sprite
14:33:29 <silent_tempest> That would be better 🙂
14:33:38 <_glx_> sprite are only used when forced
14:33:58 <_glx_> via the checkbox in options
14:35:43 <merni> And also regarding having a font picker... most games don't have one, but then most games don't distribute with translations that cannot be displayed with the default font :)
14:36:37 <merni> I guess if the default font handles Cyrillic and Hebrew this becomes slightly less of an issue but there are still CJK, Indian languages and probably others...
14:37:05 <_glx_> well we try to ask the system if default font is not enough
14:37:19 <silent_tempest> merni: Is this true? I assumed you could only get missing glyphs with using newgrf content?
14:39:07 <_glx_> and there used to be an issue when currencies where using symbols in translations
14:39:15 <merni> silent_tempest: I think if you have font set as "" then the game asks the system for a font that can display the language. Might not always work.
14:39:27 <peter1138> Any CJK language is not supported by the sprite font.
14:39:32 <silent_tempest> My understanding of Chinese, Japanese and Korean is pretty low but wouldn't Korean be sort different here? Korean is a phonetic language isn't it?
14:40:04 <merni> Yes but it uses Hangul script which is not in either sprite font or openttd default font
14:40:12 <peter1138> Heh, my system falls back to "Noto Sans CJK JP, Black" if I pick Korean.
14:40:19 <merni> Someone has to draw all those characters!
14:41:05 <peter1138> "Black" because the font search asks for the heaviest it can get, which is probably a bit extreme.
14:41:07 <silent_tempest> Okay a font picker might make OpenTTD work for some one Korea then? Lol
14:41:49 <peter1138> Dunno.,.. seems to work without having to select a font.
14:41:58 <merni> We have quite a few Korean players, going by surveys :p Should still work without a picker though
14:42:05 <peter1138> But I can't say whether that is the correct glyphs.
14:42:20 <_glx_> looks korean enough to me
14:42:37 <merni> peter1138: I haven't trief Korean but I have tried Tamil and never seems to fallback properly for me
14:42:49 <merni> Maybe because I have sprite font enabled
14:43:05 <peter1138> Tamil is very wide.
14:43:27 <peter1138> Sprite font doesn't affect it, because it will still try to search for a font.
14:43:41 <merni> Well, all I get are boxes :p
14:43:41 <silent_tempest> Missing translation for "Off"?
14:43:59 <_glx_> it should at least try, but depending on how complete is the translation it can be difficult as sometimes fonts don't mix both ASCII and non ASCII
14:44:11 <peter1138> That's the translators' jobs 🙂
14:44:36 <_zephyris> merni: That implies that the font your system thinks supports Tamil actually doesn't
14:44:58 <peter1138> With Hindi they did one but not the others 😄
14:45:00 <silent_tempest> peter1138: Okay. It's not an issue of drop down boxes not being translated but an issue of there being a missing translation?
14:45:24 <merni> peter1138: Web translator presents strings in random orders
14:45:53 <peter1138> Yeah, pretty much everything in the UI is translatable. But the console isn't.
14:46:01 <silent_tempest> peter1138: Not half assed but 20% assed? 1 of 5? Lol
14:46:37 <peter1138> _zephyris: think the Hebrew characters will be ready for 14.0? 😄
14:46:42 <_glx_> merni: yeah, now it also tries to give a related string if possible
14:47:05 <peter1138> We, uh, have quite a lot of things to backport now.
14:47:08 <merni> Yeah I noticed that, it's nice
14:47:44 <silent_tempest> To earlier editions of the game?
14:47:59 <silent_tempest> Why is that done?
14:48:07 <silent_tempest> To support some prominent forks?
14:48:33 <merni> The master branch is ahead of the branch which will be released as 14.0
14:48:50 <_glx_> 14.0 is feature freeze so it's on its own branch
14:49:14 <merni> There is that nice new blogpost about all this :)
14:50:23 <silent_tempest> Okay all of that makes sense. I didn't know there was release branching but I also never looked either.
14:50:50 <_glx_> hmm and we still need to look at how to mitigate the macOS linker bug
14:55:29 <_glx_> hardest part for us is being able to test 🙂
14:56:41 <silent_tempest> Andy posted a screenshot from OSX earlier right?
14:57:04 <_glx_> but he's using a recent enough macOS
14:57:39 <_glx_> the bug affects 12-, but the compiler causing the bug needs 13+
14:58:50 <silent_tempest> Hmn does the -ld64 option not fix it?
14:59:38 <silent_tempest> It's honestly hard to figure out if I hate Windows or MacOs more than each other...
15:00:17 <_glx_> in theory `-Wl,-ld_classic` should work, but doing random stuff without being able to test ourselves is not fun
15:01:49 <silent_tempest> Or we could adopt the AAA Gaming strat and let the players be the testers... Nah I can't even joke like that.
15:02:11 <LordAro> that is basically how we do macOS
15:02:35 <LordAro> though we do try to get testers before merging things
15:05:16 <silent_tempest> silent_tempest: Can we also get an error message here about failing to load the font? With some helpful info like where the search happened?
15:06:12 <_glx_> oh we could also force using xcode 15.1 (it's available in the image)
15:13:53 <xarick> who would have thought removing code would fix league tables
15:18:03 <peter1138> Given it's your code, I'm not surprised 😉
15:19:32 <xarick> no crash, but now if i add more tables, it will fail
15:19:58 <xarick> I still blame the scenario editor
15:20:28 <xarick> the new tables are added, but the old companies won't be added to them
15:24:25 <xarick> maybe they will, I don't know anymore, code is too hard to follow
15:27:09 <_glx_> scenario is not supposed to have companies
15:28:29 <_glx_> but I imagine script could get list of companies on start, then react to events during run
15:29:23 <xarick> okay, they won't be added to the new tables
15:29:42 <xarick> I was trying to maintain compatibility with older versions as I was adding new tables to newer versions
15:31:08 <xarick> for some reason starting from a scenario, it checks for existing companies, adds them, then it checks events and it finds a new company event, which is handled
15:31:42 <xarick> it is expected for the new company not existing in the tables, but they do, so it asserts
15:32:08 <xarick> there's a difference between starting from a scenario and starting from a new game
15:33:06 <_glx_> scenario is just like loading a savegame
15:33:43 <_glx_> while for new game GS runs for some ticks at the end of generation
15:34:46 <xarick> try it yourself, create a scenario, set up League Tables, save scenario, then start scenario as a new game. It crashes due to the company already being in the table.
15:35:10 <_glx_> but there should not be companies in scenario
15:35:10 <xarick> then try a new game, with League Tables, not from a scenario, and it just runs fine
15:35:46 <_glx_> then your script has a bug if it finds companies when there are not
15:36:18 <xarick> i think it's an order of execution issue
15:37:20 <_glx_> the script implements Save and Load ?
15:37:40 <_glx_> then it saves garbage in scenario
15:38:17 <_glx_> in scenario editor script is loaded but not started
15:38:29 <xarick> I had a GSLog.Info in the Load function, it wasn't triggered
15:38:47 <xarick> it wasn't loading anything, it was starting fresh
15:40:38 <xarick> if league.id == null means that nothing was loaded
15:41:10 <xarick> or the table is too new to exist in an old save
15:42:58 <xarick> or it's starting fresh, also valid
15:43:25 <_glx_> but when loading the scenario it loads stuff
15:44:22 <_glx_> IIRC `constuctor` is executed when you add script to scenario
15:47:34 <_glx_> and it contains whatever `constructor` puts in it
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16:03:07 <xarick> it loaded null, nothing was saved
16:08:56 <xarick> the company already exists by the time it reaches line 84
16:10:20 <xarick> there are no companies by the time the scenario is saved
16:10:47 <xarick> need to check the load scenario code, what it does
16:11:11 <_glx_> it creates a company if needed at the end of loading
16:12:39 <xarick> what happens first? GS::Start or create a new company?
16:13:28 <xarick> seems to be doing: create new company, then GS::Start which detects it as an "old company", but then it still receives a new event about a new company
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16:18:10 <xarick> start new game seems to first run GS::Start, which doesn't find any company, so it doesn't create an element of that company in the tables, then the first company is created, by this time it is already inside the main loop. On the 2nd loop, it finds the new company event, and inserts it in the tables. No crash!
16:18:42 <xarick> it must be the order stuff is done when loading scenarios
16:19:42 <_glx_> first start scripts, then start a company if needed
16:21:50 <_glx_> but the script just runs the constructor at that point
16:22:19 <xarick> the constructor doesn't add elements (read: companies in each table)
16:22:27 <_glx_> so when game loop happens, the company exists
16:24:05 <_glx_> ah no the constructor is also done in game loop
16:24:43 <_glx_> on start it's only loaded/compiled
16:30:22 <_glx_> and all that happens after company creation
16:31:42 <_glx_> but for newgame the script runs for some game loops before the company creation
16:36:45 <_glx_> so when loading a scenario the script sees the company when it starts, but it also received the event
16:37:17 <_glx_> your script doesn't handle this case
16:38:13 <_glx_> it should ignore the "new company" event if it already knows the company
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16:58:25 <xarick> if (league.el[c_id] != null) continue;
16:58:32 <xarick> let's see what happens
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17:26:16 <silent_tempest> Pretty happy about that
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17:26:38 <matusguy> you can switch fonts from the menu now?
17:26:58 <silent_tempest> it's a WIP set of local chnages I have
17:27:13 <matusguy> haaaaleeeluuujah finallyyyyyyyy
17:27:20 <silent_tempest> For instantance that slider is totally broken. Lol
17:27:45 <silent_tempest> Like halfway busted I mean it does seem to notice that it's changed but it's resizing the font right now.
17:28:55 <silent_tempest> matusguy: What's your motivation to switch fonts?
17:30:07 <matusguy> Dont like the default. The one i have set rn has fatter letters and taht helps me read it
17:30:08 <silent_tempest> I broke the Use Sprite font button LOL. I'll have to fix that.
17:31:23 <matusguy> But i also remember changing the config files and wondering "why is it not changing wtf!!". Hopefully this makes the process more intuitive
17:34:02 <silent_tempest> I would guess search path?
17:34:43 <silent_tempest> Like OpenTTD does some formatting on font names when it displays them
17:35:35 <silent_tempest> I don't think I've seen it "undo" that formatting, but I could be wrong. I feel like so much staring at this stuff means I'm starting to miss things
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17:46:33 <silent_tempest> I am a fucking genius...
17:46:33 <silent_tempest> 1. Adds function stub. Doesn't implement said stubbed function.
17:46:33 <silent_tempest> 2. Calls function. See nothing happens
17:46:33 <silent_tempest> 3. Gets confused why nothing is happening...
17:46:33 <silent_tempest> There's some temporal distance between those steps but... Lol
17:56:31 <xarick> I won't have my AI ready for 14.0
17:56:57 <xarick> I'm trying to add rail support, but it's difficult
17:57:42 <truebrain> _glx_: Lol, that is a silly bug ... at least they still fixed it 😛
18:07:47 <silent_tempest> Hmn I got the slider working finally
18:08:06 <silent_tempest> Trying to move the slider smoothly doesn't seem to be possible
18:08:25 <silent_tempest> Cause I update the font size which re-inits all of the windows
18:08:45 <_glx_> truebrain: yeah but macos-14 defaults to xcode 15.0.1
18:09:25 <peter1138> Yes, there's a reason the interface scale slider defers update.
18:13:50 <silent_tempest> You mean the control key thing to "smoothly" drag it?
18:14:18 <silent_tempest> Don't need the control for it work
18:20:51 <peter1138> No, I mean only applying the change when you release the mouse button.
18:21:10 <silent_tempest> What is a MouseLoop?
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18:30:18 <truebrain> _glx_: Let's force 15.1, as that sounds worth it
18:30:51 <truebrain> Not ideal, but neither is this 😄
19:08:20 <andythenorth> I did not finish all my grfs
19:08:34 <andythenorth> distracted by playing wallclock game 😛
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19:40:55 <georgevb> About new OpenTTD font. Isn't it too late to ask to add
19:40:55 <georgevb> Subscript minuscule numbers?
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19:46:26 <georgevb> It would be perfect, if every letter or number would be available in Superscript and Subscript.
20:16:03 <xarick> lol, my AI is not immune to dumb stuff
20:16:51 <alfagamma7> Bridge through the town
20:18:36 <xarick> consecutive turns forces the pf to do this
20:19:40 <xarick> pathfinder.cost.consecutive_turn = pathfinder.cost.max_cost;
20:19:50 <xarick> yeah, looks like it's a bad idea after all
20:21:14 <xarick> prevent trains from losing speed
20:21:24 <xarick> when doing that many turns
20:23:29 <xarick> it works! train reaches station at full speed
20:23:38 <xarick> but seriously looks bad
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20:28:00 <_jgr_> I'd presume that it would be better to optimise for "minimum travel time" not "maximum average travel speed"
20:32:29 <_glx_> sharp turn when entering exiting the station is a non issue anyway (the train will slow down when entering)
20:46:08 <xarick> ahhh no, I see what's the problem
20:47:45 <xarick> the pf has that tile in red in the ignore list
20:48:28 <xarick> nothing was stopping from just doing a long enough turn
20:49:16 <xarick> it was to avoid a 90 degree with a possible depot next to it, but turns out the depot was placed on the other side
20:50:37 <xarick> time to detect which side the depot was placed instead of being lazy and add both sides
20:50:59 <xarick> also 90 degrees setting, maybe i should also take it into account
21:22:42 <_glx_> yeah I cancelled it, forgot it's not possible to test workflow changes
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22:00:12 <__karma> Hey glx regarding the GUI callback, I don't have much time at the moment to implement it as I will be having exams in the next 2 weeks. Just thought it would be a good idea to let you know since I will probably not commit anything in response to your comment in the next few days. 😅
22:01:46 <truebrain> Good luck on your exams 🙂
22:03:42 <xarick> my pathfinders are so disappointing. the time it takes is excessive to be deemed competitive
22:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like there have been 70 years of research into efficient pathfinders
22:05:05 <xarick> the library one is a bit bad for 90 degrees
22:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and KUDr was a crazyperson (in the good sense) :)
22:06:30 <xarick> but I'm also stubborn, to be honest. I am trying a 1000 tile distance route due to maglev speeds
22:07:11 <xarick> that's what 65 days in transit estimates it to be at 600 km/h
22:14:28 <xarick> minimap not fully zoomed in
22:14:43 <xarick> wouldn't fit in a 1920x1080 window
22:15:00 <xarick> top left to bottom right ~1000 tiles
22:18:15 <xarick> let's give it an infinite amount of iterations
22:19:42 <xarick> max_pathfinderTries = 1250000 * route_dist; 3 more zeroes
22:21:16 <xarick> that's a giant amount of iterations now
22:29:37 <xarick> memory is still within the limits
22:29:51 <xarick> well, i'm leaving this running overnight, cyas goodnight
23:30:24 *** matusguy has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
continue to next day ⏵
