IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2022-12-08
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00:04:58 <petern> Me messing with vector initialization is, apparently.
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04:08:42 <Pruple> where a tile is road + tram
04:09:17 <Pruple> should the speed limit for any vehicle be the lowest of the roadtype and tramtype?
04:09:58 <Pruple> eg, should a tram on a 48 km/h road be limited to 48 km/h?
06:33:42 <kamnet> That would seem to make sense to me. Is there anyplace where a tram on a road is permitted to drive faster than the road traffic?
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07:56:22 <Yozora> kamnet: Pedestrian zones?
09:03:29 <petern> I realised I always use the mode where the pointer isn't locked.
09:18:23 <Wolf01> The locked pointer mode gives me motion sickness like in VR
11:13:58 <petern> Portal RTX later today.
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14:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Pruple: realistically, on a shared road+tram, the tram tends to have a much lower speed limit
14:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "how to most politely point them at the plane speed setting"?
14:38:36 <LordAro> it's even in the thread mentioned in the issue
14:38:43 <LordAro> though missing justification, of course
14:55:25 <petern> Turns out if you move things to vectors and such, and forget to remove all traces of memset/memcpy etc... boom 🙂
15:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should work on a rust port? :p
15:55:05 <petern> How about a pointer to a vector of pointers, just for fun?
16:31:16 <TallTyler> I love when people close their own issues 🙂
16:34:27 <LordAro> peter/glx could've done :p
18:04:44 <petern> Hmm, maybe I will just commit this and then forget about it forever 😄
18:08:14 <FLHerne> Pruple: combining speed limits might not make sense for weirdo "tram" types like the suspended monorail
18:08:27 <FLHerne> on balance I think it's a good idea
18:09:59 <FLHerne> a less weird example might be trams on cobblestone streets or so
18:10:51 <FLHerne> if the roadtype's speed restriction represents a practical rather than a legal limit it could make sense for trams to be faster
18:15:10 <supermop_toil> that's how i see road type speeds
18:15:24 <supermop_toil> dirt is slow and highway is fast
18:16:01 <supermop_toil> but if you built a continuously welded rail tramway down the middle of that dirt road, the trams could still go fast
18:17:05 <supermop_toil> monorail tramways always seem unworkably disappointing
18:17:35 <supermop_toil> noting like having your elevated suspended monorail stuck in traffic behind a horse and carriage
18:19:33 <TallTyler> I wonder if it would be possible to have a “no road vehicle collision” flag for a tramtype to fix that
18:20:11 <TallTyler> Could also apply to trains so it would just float over train tracks
18:20:44 <TallTyler> Elevated monorail is the obvious use case but also aerial tramways/gondolas could use it
18:21:02 <supermop_toil> seems like a Sisyphean task to try to make gondolas, monorails, conveyor bellts out of trams
18:21:30 <FLHerne> supermop_toil: it does actually exist as a grf though
18:21:38 <FLHerne> before multiple tramtypes even
18:21:50 <supermop_toil> yes , but it mostly just makes your trams look like neat monorails
18:22:14 <FLHerne> TallTyler: and flying lamppost boats
18:22:23 <TallTyler> What else would you use? We already have pipelines, power lines, flumes, conveyor belts, aerial gondolas, and now elevated monorails
18:22:24 <supermop_toil> it doesn't provide the benefit/functionality of elevated rails
18:23:06 <supermop_toil> which , bypass street traffic and fitting in and around existing infrastructure
18:23:10 <TallTyler> People have already exploited it, we might as well make it more useful
18:23:33 <TallTyler> Although I think half of my list are railtypes created before NRT allowed multiple road/tram types
18:23:53 <TallTyler> And should really be re-coded as trams or roads
18:24:25 <supermop_toil> and there are other things like gondolas/ropeways that really make no sense as a tramway
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18:24:36 <TallTyler> What else would they be, then?
18:24:44 <TallTyler> Add a new transport type?
18:25:05 <petern> New bits can be added to NRT, it isn't immutable 😄
18:25:32 <TallTyler> What would the new umbrella category be, if not roads or trams?
18:26:06 <petern> Imagine say a flag to indicate high-level, so it draws the vehicles off the ground...
18:26:14 <TallTyler> I don’t see a problem with tramways being expanded to other fixed-guideway systems
18:26:19 <supermop_toil> its a fundamentally different paradigm, both gameplay wise and conceptually - minimal vehicle cost (or none, the vehicle is conceptually part of the guideway)
18:26:20 <TallTyler> Better than roads for sure
18:26:24 <petern> (And so they don't interfere with non-high-level vehicles)
18:28:15 <TallTyler> I don’t disagree, but the possible scope creep of a vehicle-less transport type scares me 😬
18:28:59 <TallTyler> And adding a flag and changing its behavior is solidly in my wheelhouse 🙂
18:29:21 <supermop_toil> where as a road its like, buy newer faster trucks and the guideway is dumb but highly networkable, pay per truck, but a conveyor like type is - very light cost of the vehicle but more of the cost is in the guideway itself
18:30:26 <supermop_toil> the guideway is the vehicle, and constrained in its networking
18:32:15 <supermop_toil> you have a pumping station, or a stationary engine, etc,
18:32:47 <TallTyler> I’d argue that trams are the closest analogue in OpenTTD without so many changes to the game that the concept would die in bikeshedding
18:33:08 <TallTyler> And legitimate debate, for that matter
18:34:23 <supermop_toil> but a gondola or coal conveyor belt with junctions and mixed traffic of vehicles feels more or less like a winamp skin
18:35:12 <supermop_toil> as opposed to an interesting different tool/puzzle with different strengths
18:35:22 <TallTyler> I guess that’s up to the player how they want to use it
18:37:16 <supermop_toil> not even from a realism perspective, i mean more like the difference between fire flower and tanuki suit, as opposed to the difference between mario and luigi
18:37:54 <supermop_toil> does that make sense?
18:39:18 <supermop_toil> and like, some guideways could be cheaper to build bridges - afterall the gondola cables are already elevated
18:40:03 <TallTyler> I don’t know the reference but I understand your point. But I worry that the very same game design choices would be impossible to actually get merged
18:42:24 <TallTyler> I think it would be better to make tramways more customizable by NewGRF authors by adding more flags like “no tunnels” (aerial tramway, etc), “no road crossings” (flume/conveyor belts, both of which are currently roads), etc.
18:42:42 <supermop_toil> flume can be road or tram
18:42:47 <supermop_toil> i put in a parameter
18:42:56 <TallTyler> And get NewGRF road stops merged for better stations
18:43:12 <DorpsGek> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:43:28 <TallTyler> If flumes are trams, can they be placed on a road or is that prevented somehow?
18:43:43 <supermop_toil> but then also like... i don't want my logs to be able to unload at a truck station
18:43:55 <supermop_toil> no way to prevent it
18:44:08 <TallTyler> We can add a flag for that 🙂
18:44:53 <supermop_toil> but its really a novelty grf - there is no way for it to really work like a log flume, and is more like an art exercise in kitbashing
18:45:14 <TallTyler> I use it quite a bit actually
18:45:42 <supermop_toil> really it should be more like "x tons of lumber can come out the other end per tick"
18:45:47 <TallTyler> Pipelines are a good example of another “no road crossing” flag needed
18:46:27 <petern> That's assuming pipelines should be implemented as roads, which is not a given.
18:46:49 <TallTyler> They’re currently train tracks, which is definitely worse 😛
18:46:57 <supermop_toil> petern: i believe flumes should be a type of pipe
18:48:06 <supermop_toil> as is you can get weird things were like, no logs flowing because you are waiting for your empty logs to come back up hill
18:48:12 <TallTyler> I guess you could animate them by spawning a cargo sprite-only vehicle at one end and destroying it at the other
18:48:33 <TallTyler> Factory Town does this pretty well
18:48:51 <supermop_toil> and logs cannot flow nearly far enough on a flat flume even if they just zoomed down a huge mountain
18:49:22 <supermop_toil> and if they come to a stop behind another log on a flat segment, they can't really get started again
18:50:31 <supermop_toil> also you can build a section like \_____/ where logs flow past each other in both directions in the middle
18:51:33 <supermop_toil> so its really just an eyecandy thing
18:54:39 <supermop_toil> if tramways did have things like no_junctions flag, or oneway (single track) that could help
18:55:46 <supermop_toil> but the most damning thing for me is, if my gondola or monorail is a tram, i cannot build a gondola over a tramway
19:02:51 <TallTyler> Not without a bridge or tunnel, anyway
19:04:05 <TallTyler> We could add a third transport type for elevated vehicles but then we haven’t solved pipes or flumes
19:04:58 <TallTyler> Yeah, sounds like TMWFTLB to me for sure
19:05:37 <TallTyler> What might be helpful is custom bridges by road/tram/railtype, like what we have with depots
19:06:00 <TallTyler> That way we could have custom bridges for aerial tramways that are just taller support poles
19:07:16 <petern> I think I did originally think about was a flag to say if a road type was road/tram, road/road, tram/tram or tram/road.
19:07:28 <petern> But that doesn't solve much, and makes things way more complex.
19:07:47 <petern> One thing you can do is have a tram type that is compatible with both trams and gondola and use that for crossings...
19:08:02 <petern> That might be a bit too manual though 🙂
19:08:31 <TallTyler> Tom Scott’s ropeway video shows a bridge over the road 🙂
19:09:00 <TallTyler> Personally I’m not too concerned with crossing incompatible types at grade. There are plenty of workarounds
19:09:36 <TallTyler> But we need a flag to allow the NewGRF author to prevent combining road/tram on the same tile for cases like Flume
19:10:05 <TallTyler> We already have it for crossing train tracks
19:10:19 <TallTyler> (In both directions, I think)
19:10:21 <petern> Feel free to design one 🙂
19:11:02 <petern> NRT is basically "not finished" because sometimes you just need to get things included. And piss off people who think it sucked. Sorry 😦
19:12:09 <TallTyler> I’m between jobs until probably sometime in January so I think I’ll open a PR to add these flags and then maybe make a NewGRF with my favorite alternative transport methods
19:12:31 <TallTyler> Pipeline and gondola for a start
19:12:47 <petern> std::unique_ptr is ‘fun’ to deal with.
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19:36:16 <LordAro> petern: if you like unique_ptr, you should try rust :p
19:36:43 <petern> openttd-rs was already mentioned 🙂
19:45:24 <petern> OpenGFX+ stations are not bad.
19:45:39 <petern> Not quite Foster-style though.
19:47:41 <supermop_toil> i wouldn't saddle NRT with stuff specifically to support toy waytypes like pipes and gondola
19:47:55 <supermop_toil> but yes, some flags would be nice
19:49:37 <supermop_toil> no_junctions, no_road, etc
19:50:45 <supermop_toil> or like this waytype can only build this type of bridge? or this waytype bridges are cheaper?
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20:00:04 <petern> No pipelines are not roads imho
20:02:52 <supermop_toil> im fine with no pipes no belts no flumes
20:03:55 <supermop_toil> if someone wants to kitbash a pipe or chute or moving walkway out of NRT that's on them, NRT shouldn't bend to accomodate that
20:14:28 <TallTyler> So maybe the elevated flag is just “no-interaction” where it doesn’t interact with road vehicles or trains
20:19:41 <glx[d]> while adding flags, maybe look at ground type overlay for bridge entrances
20:24:26 <Samu> it's very difficult to explain #9921
20:29:17 <Samu> i tried to formulate some examples, but it becomes so complex, i gave up on the idea
20:37:35 <Samu> what I tried to correct, was the usage of SubtractMoneyFromCompany
20:40:02 <Samu> each time money is subtracted it would change the value of that company. If another share value is requested on that company during command execution, it would now have a different value
20:40:15 <Samu> kinda repeating myself again...
20:43:09 <Samu> i changed it so it collects all the values first, without using SubtractMoneyFromCompany during this phase, and only after all values are collected, it would subtract them all at once
20:44:44 <Samu> not sure what happens in the real world when a company is sold/bankrupted, im not an expert
20:45:06 <Samu> maybe my approach is wrong from that perspective, I don't know
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20:48:20 <Samu> i guess better just close it
20:49:43 <Samu> the original approach is not exactly wrong either. It's merelly simulating multiple sequences of "Sell shares", and that means it's okay for the same company to have different values
20:50:04 <Samu> it's the result of each individual "sell share"
20:51:32 <petern> TallTyler: Reason I mention elevated is it might be helpful to have the bounding box higher for sprite sorting. Or disallow bridges above... or something... Or maybe it wouldn't 🤷
20:52:00 <TallTyler> Not moving the bounding boxes means we make the NewGRF developer figure it out 😉
20:52:17 <TallTyler> Could use some expertise from someone who knows about bounding boxes
21:12:05 <Samu> oh, im sad to see #7918 closed :(
21:14:17 <Samu> i felt there was no need to create an AI API method for profit last year above min age
21:15:50 <Samu> i just wanted to match group profit last year displayed from vehicle list gui to that of the API
21:16:56 <Samu> but I was suggested to create 2 profits to differentiate them, and that's what I did
21:19:28 <Samu> no changes to the actual API was needed after the addition of the 2nd profit
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21:29:38 <Samu> the part about "autoreplace" was that it was getting in the way of group-statistics copying. It was an issue that only happens after the introduction of the 2nd profit, which is resolved
21:29:57 <Samu> so, yeah, that PR was finished, ready to merge
21:30:58 <petern> "it made sense to me" isn't quite the correct answer.
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23:28:56 <petern> Hmm, do I make it so that variants must have a higher index than the parent...
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23:42:48 <petern> I guess I can just do extra initialization.
23:47:50 <petern> When syncing initial reliability I just have to make sure it's done in the right order, otherwise it won't be synced.
23:48:38 <petern> Hmm,actually I'm not sure this is the right thing to do.
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23:50:34 <petern> Yeah. Reliability syncing needs to work later, otherwise it'll go out of sync if introduction dates are different.
23:51:53 <petern> And that's needed for timed livery introduction.
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