IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-06-10
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11:13:43 <Wolf01> Good job V453000 for the FFF#194, steam browser can't handle it, I had to read it on firefox XD
11:16:24 <Arveen2> i can open it within steam
11:16:41 <Wolf01> Yeah, but I can't scroll the page
11:17:47 <Arveen2> nice there is a screenshot of some source code
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11:35:26 <Wolf01> Kickbanned cousin because he wanted me to make his website for yesterday
11:37:18 <Wolf01> "You can't come here after 1.5 years of teasing me to make the website and want it done in a week, I'll start it in september, take or leave"
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12:02:14 <Alberth> you should have charged money for each month earlier :)
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15:46:39 <frosch123> will "such" be the grfid of fish4?
15:50:01 <frosch123> or bandit 3: such useful coal haulers
15:57:58 <andythenorth> I considered making all HAUL vehicles non-articulated
15:58:02 <andythenorth> so they can use drive-in stops
15:58:37 <Wolf01> I have some spare time on my spare time, does somebody want to help me to fix some more things on RATT?
15:58:44 <frosch123> what purpose do drive-in stops have?
15:59:19 <andythenorth> aren’t they there to deceive some people into thinking they have higher throughput?
15:59:32 <andythenorth> I used to use them because they’re “more efficient"
16:00:11 <frosch123> how did you get the idea?
16:00:27 <frosch123> i mean i never measured it, but it sounds unlikely
16:08:43 <frosch123> the behaviour of ExistingRoadSubTypesForRoadType does not match it's description
16:11:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: it has 3 bays, eh? Not 2 :P
16:11:45 <andythenorth> there are some problems with this idea, but people often count wrong
16:11:46 <frosch123> drive-in has 2 bays, and a bottleneck for driving in and out
16:12:18 <frosch123> drive-through have two independent directions for enter/exit, no bottleneck, and as many bays as the vehicles are short
16:12:53 <Wolf01> "Return a filtered list of RoadSubTypes for the given RoadType, based on company and if to check for their introduction date"
16:13:28 <frosch123> Wolf01: if you pass a valid company, "any_date" is not even used
16:14:02 <Wolf01> There it misses a check
16:15:15 <Wolf01> Could I do this? return AddDateIntroducedRoadTypes(rt, company->avail_roadtypes[rt], any_date ? MAX_DAY : _date);
16:16:03 <frosch123> i would rather think that "any_date = true" mans to ignore "c"
16:16:44 <frosch123> if something is available to some company at some point it time, it will be available to everyone at some time
16:18:12 <frosch123> CanBuildVehicleInfrastructure has the same problem
16:19:00 <Wolf01> Do roadtypes cease to be available to company when all vehicles for it expire?
16:19:15 <frosch123> it has like 4 input parameters (including _game_mode and disable_unsuitable_building"), but the function itself looks implausible to use them correclty in all cases
16:20:44 <frosch123> company_avail is set to zero
16:20:49 <frosch123> but, i have no idea
16:20:54 <frosch123> i would have to look it up myself
16:21:36 <Wolf01> I'll make a document with all the cases I can remember and think about
16:23:06 <frosch123> GetCompanyRailtypes seems to check both company_avail and intro_date
16:23:20 <frosch123> so, it uses company_avail to detect preview, but does not considere expiring vehicles
16:23:29 <frosch123> so railtypes remain available
16:23:40 <frosch123> possibly it's broken for roadtypes
16:30:27 <frosch123> you added a password :p
16:31:16 <Wolf01> Stupid browser filling password fields
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16:31:31 <Wolf01> I didn't even check the "mark as private"
16:31:43 <frosch123> are those the rules from railtypes, or did you invent them?
16:32:28 <Wolf01> As railtypes can't do half of those things I invented them
16:32:35 <frosch123> gamescripts dintinguish deity-mode and company-mode
16:32:43 <frosch123> deity-mode should be equal to scenario editor
16:33:37 <Wolf01> Ok, so deity-mode is company=null, any_date=true, while company mode is the opposite
16:33:50 <frosch123> Wolf01: i think with making roadtype unavailable when you sell the last one of them, you make a lot of things more complicated, and inconssitent to trains
16:34:18 <frosch123> i always went for "make it work exactly like railtypes"
16:34:50 <frosch123> possbily with the deity/scenedit extension
16:35:51 <Wolf01> Yes, that's what I want to achieve, currently I don't think RATT make available a subtype without vehicles
16:36:51 <Wolf01> Deity is completely broken on base, and less broken with this patch
16:38:56 <Wolf01> Currently RATT is "can you build ROAD? Ok, you can build every subtype, same for TRAM"
16:40:04 <supermop_home> hmm i can't build tram right now
16:41:32 <supermop_home> I only have one tram in my grf
16:42:24 <supermop_home> tramtype translation table is { RAIL, ELRL }
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16:47:30 <Wolf01> Could I remove the "any_date" param and just check if the company is valid? Or there is an explicit case which needs to filter only subtypes available at the current date for deity?
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17:05:36 <__ln___> btw, thank you united kingdom for your gift to 100-year-old finland. i watched it live and it was cool.
17:20:52 <Wolf01> And I renamed it to CanBuildRoadTypeInfrastructure and moved to road.cpp as the only relation to vehicles is an interal loop
17:22:49 <supermop_home> the tram still thinks it is a bus
17:23:21 <frosch123> you need to set the tram flag in the misc_flags
17:23:35 <frosch123> it's the only thing that distinguishes tram from roadvehicles
17:24:53 <supermop_home> the tramtype doesn't do that?
17:25:13 <Wolf01> Nope, and I can't think why XD
17:25:50 <frosch123> no, possibly nml could be extended to check that stuff, but it's likely not easy
17:26:39 <Wolf01> Also I'm an idiot, I forgot to commit the staged changes
17:26:41 <supermop_home> also my articulated buses have smoke coking from both parts... should look in to fixing that
17:35:30 <Wolf01> Ok, pushed changes, the usage of those 2 functions should be more clear now, they still need fixes
17:54:11 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I found a nice problem: I can't add a station to the vehicle schedule, but why? The first thought is that is not reachable by the pathfinder, but no error popup tell me it
17:55:29 <Wolf01> The second problem is that it was a freight station
17:55:52 <andythenorth> NML could grow ‘FEAT_TRAMS’, but as a method of eliminating a single flag, it seems heavy-handed
18:00:45 <Wolf01> supermop_home, pylons on the background for asphalt paved road with overhead wire are drawn over the vehicles
18:01:38 <Wolf01> I don't know if it was fixed, but I think I have the latest unspooled grf
18:47:37 <Alberth> automagic generation always wins :p
18:48:57 <andythenorth> V453000: now generate the python that generates the lua ;)
18:51:38 <Wolf01> Automatic factorio is automatic
18:53:45 <andythenorth> what about automatic FIRS?
18:53:55 <andythenorth> Alberth: what to do about these map colours eh? :)
19:01:37 <frosch123> V453000: the "generate .bat with python" definitely made me think of andy
19:02:12 <frosch123> anyway, i expect a factorio->grf converter next
19:04:53 <Alberth> the green thingie? not use it? :p
19:05:47 <Alberth> can't have 32bpp industry-map colours due to compatibility, probably
19:06:03 <Alberth> less industries works too
19:06:34 <Alberth> same-ish colours between non-conflicting chains perhaps?
19:06:37 <frosch123> hmm, there are formulas to compute the "visual distance" between colors
19:07:06 <frosch123> maybe we should write a python script to find the colors which stays ways from all the map colours and from themself each other
19:08:17 <Alberth> you may not have enough colours then
19:08:48 <Alberth> ideally you'd take the industry-chain into account, probably
19:10:03 <Alberth> declare it as bad chain :p
19:10:24 <frosch123> how about coloring primary, secondary, tertiary, harbour?
19:10:24 <Alberth> NML error: Cannot compute industry map colour
19:10:36 <frosch123> so you can start your game with the greenish industries
19:11:01 <Alberth> finding a specific source or destination becomes tricky?
19:11:12 <andythenorth> I’ve already got the palette computed as RGB
19:11:21 <frosch123> there is no point in doing it in nml
19:11:37 <frosch123> you only need to do it once, and the put a table onto the wiki: use these colors in this order
19:12:01 <andythenorth> I could do it in the FIRS compile
19:12:27 <andythenorth> is there a newgrf var for ‘current map colour’ :P
19:13:17 <frosch123> would also fit a color blind mode
19:13:46 <frosch123> i believe there were also formulas for color distance with typical color vision defects
19:13:56 <Alberth> contrast reduces to conversion to gray-scale, wouldn't it?
19:13:58 <andythenorth> we could do a high contrast OpenTTD :P
19:31:15 <andythenorth> hmm where are the map colours in src?
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19:32:32 <frosch123> src/table/heightmap_colours.h
19:32:49 * andythenorth would not have found that by guessing :)
19:32:58 <frosch123> they are no rgb codes
19:33:13 <frosch123> it's tables of 4 colours for dithering
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19:37:32 <frosch123> i looked for a color difference video on yt
19:37:44 <frosch123> i came to one that is a machine-read wiki page
19:38:33 <andythenorth> like machine-read news voiceovers
19:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27878 trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt (2017-06-10 19:45:37 +0200 )
19:45:48 <DorpsGek> vietnamese: 7 changes by nglekhoi
19:48:16 <andythenorth> maybe I should just sample the map colours, and write a guard :)
19:48:48 <frosch123> ah, there is a "colormath" python module
19:49:05 <frosch123> so, i do not need to understand the formulas
19:50:50 <frosch123> let's try to find the theoretically best colors :)
19:51:50 <andythenorth> could OpenTTD just assign the colours? :P
19:52:17 <frosch123> if we find a good result, we could add a nml built-in function
19:52:23 <andythenorth> have to account for towns also :)
19:52:27 <frosch123> good_colour(1)..good_colour(200)
19:52:49 <andythenorth> oh water also :P
19:53:23 <frosch123> you can figure out water yourself for water industries
19:53:52 * andythenorth considers counting how many unique colours in FIRS
19:55:53 <andythenorth> 44 colours by counting on my fingers :P
19:56:12 <andythenorth> for 80 industries
19:57:58 <supermop_home> Wolf01 the pylon issue is known
19:58:21 <supermop_home> the problem is, I have the 'top' of the pylon on the front layer
19:59:26 <supermop_home> because on a junction or corner, a pylon on the east or west corner is conceivably either front or back depending on route RV takes through the tile
20:00:00 <supermop_home> I had hoped that the top half of the pylon would be high enough to not show up on top of RVS passing 'in front' of the pylon
20:00:01 <frosch123> wtf... apparently this library knows so many diifferent color representations
20:00:12 <frosch123> that they are using graph algorithms to find conversion paths between them
20:00:18 <supermop_home> but unfortunately most RVs are taller than I thought
20:01:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: that is wtf :P
20:03:18 <supermop_home> if we can get more control over draw order/location of pylons could fix it that way
20:07:08 <andythenorth> Alberth: I’ve lost your link showing the disappearing peatlands :)
20:21:43 <andythenorth> did you post it here?
20:22:03 <Alberth> if you've seen it, likely :)
20:22:17 <Alberth> MB posted some in the forum, which were nice too
20:23:02 <andythenorth> I mean the one showing the map colour bug, sorry :)
20:23:07 <andythenorth> English lacks precision
20:23:16 <andythenorth> I can’t reproduce it
20:23:27 <andythenorth> ah, heightmap is on
20:24:25 <Alberth> every now and then you have to manoeuvre around a heap of tiles :)
20:24:38 <Alberth> or in this case, move up :p
20:25:17 <Alberth> my pyrite mines were at the wrong side of a mountain iirc
20:25:52 <andythenorth> pyrite mine has horrible contrast on green map
20:26:03 <andythenorth> I am 100% NOT red-green colour blind, but I can hardly see it
20:26:19 <Alberth> ah, right, for me it's very visible :)
20:27:03 <Alberth> reading the name of the industry at the legend is becoming difficult though
20:37:08 <Alberth> letters are too small to read without glasses :p
20:37:55 <Alberth> it's very weird when you notice you can't quite focus any more to read details
20:38:24 <andythenorth> you have original base set font?
20:38:57 <Alberth> or at least, something equally small :p
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20:55:01 <frosch123> i guess i should generate a html page or something
20:55:54 <andythenorth> seems FIRS forest is 100% invisible on dark green map
21:11:58 <Alberth> that's why it can flash white :)
21:17:16 <frosch123> the result certainly looks weird to me, but not obviously wrong
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21:25:59 <andythenorth> lots of browns eh
21:27:09 <andythenorth> I am suspicious about 0x51
21:27:18 <andythenorth> seems that would disappear on dark green
21:27:20 <frosch123> i am assigning the colors in greedy mode
21:27:31 <frosch123> so it picks some red first, which then downgrades all other reds
21:27:41 <frosch123> it may be smarter to pick two different reds first
21:27:59 <andythenorth> can I just assign them to FIRS industries by ID :P
21:28:06 <andythenorth> industry 0 gets first from list
21:28:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: 0x51 is pretty far down the list
21:28:42 <andythenorth> oh it’s a distance thing?
21:28:57 <frosch123> all lists contain all the colors which are not map colors
21:29:06 <andythenorth> feel like converting the hex to dec? :P
21:29:07 <frosch123> the ones at the bottom are just very bad
21:29:28 <andythenorth> I’m intrigued how close I got to optimum by guessing
21:29:41 <frosch123> you can't compare that with that list
21:30:08 <frosch123> like the last list has b7 in first position
21:30:27 <frosch123> if you would have picked b6 first, then b7 would be far down the list
21:30:53 <frosch123> b6 and b7 are almost the same color, so once you have picked one, the other one is bad
21:39:44 <frosch123> i added decimal, and the CIE2000 distance score
21:42:29 <andythenorth> now how to apply it :)
21:42:41 <frosch123> cound how many industry you have in each climate
21:42:51 <frosch123> then pick the n-th first from the all-map-colors table?
21:44:42 <andythenorth> means their colour varies per economy
21:44:54 <andythenorth> does original TTD do that too?
21:45:14 <frosch123> original ttd hardly shares industries
21:45:21 <frosch123> but they do not change colors
21:45:46 <frosch123> hmm, so, 0x68 and 0x46 look weird to me
21:46:30 <frosch123> they are almost the same, still so far up the table
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21:49:48 <frosch123> well, the formula says they have a distance of 14.977
21:50:07 <frosch123> so, blame the formula? or ban dark colors?
21:53:55 <andythenorth> accept it I think
21:54:08 <andythenorth> it hasn’t favoured many of the brights
22:00:02 <andythenorth> quite cool though
22:00:48 <frosch123> maybe i should add "black" to the map colors, to disencourage dark
22:02:35 <frosch123> reload, looks better to me
22:03:32 <andythenorth> now to also distinguish from town :)
22:03:47 <andythenorth> there is a reason all FIRS town industries are white or yellow :P
22:04:14 <frosch123> i think you may have to do that manually :p
22:05:02 <andythenorth> I could set colours automatically, unless over-ridden manually
22:06:12 <frosch123> add tags to colors: on sea, on land, in town
22:10:39 <frosch123> no idea whether you want to use the same color for two industries if one is on land and the other on sea
22:14:38 <andythenorth> unique colours isn’t a goal I’ve pursued
22:14:55 <andythenorth> I try to make them unique in a chain, and try to keep each economy looking nice as far as possible
22:20:24 <andythenorth> now all I have to do is automate it :)
22:20:29 <V453000> factorio->grf conversion sounds like a challenge "D
22:21:28 <andythenorth> what, make grfs in F?
22:21:31 <frosch123> code newgrf in factories
22:22:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: V added a picture to his blog, which showed the art pipepline as a f factory
22:23:29 <frosch123> even "kurzgesagt" just made a video about automatisation
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22:42:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: I’ll try automating now :P
22:46:40 * frosch123 is curious how it will actually turn out in-game
22:49:43 * andythenorth shall find out soon
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23:03:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: pushed
23:04:34 <andythenorth> industry id => colour position in list
23:07:03 <frosch123> docs do not reflect it?
23:09:35 <frosch123> didn't refresh hard enough i guess
23:09:57 <frosch123> lots of red, lots of yellow
23:10:45 <frosch123> (when using steeltown)
23:11:40 <frosch123> maybe you are right with town colors
23:11:48 <frosch123> i have a stockyard next to a town
23:11:53 <frosch123> which is hard to see
23:12:16 <frosch123> but that restricts colors even more
23:12:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: do you have "show height" enabled on the industry map?
23:13:03 <frosch123> if disables we could use more colors
23:13:20 <andythenorth> I see no use for it on industry view
23:13:33 <andythenorth> it doesn’t tell me anything I need to know
23:13:51 <frosch123> i have the map always set to industry view
23:14:00 <frosch123> the other map types are useless to me
23:14:15 <frosch123> in hilly terrain i toggle the height to estimate the best route
23:15:39 <andythenorth> well I’m not going to revert this
23:15:49 <andythenorth> but I’m not convinced it’s finished yet :)
23:16:03 <frosch123> it may require some manual assignment
23:16:08 <frosch123> for town industries
23:16:33 <frosch123> also it makes sense to pick similar colors for industries which you can distinguish by their size
23:16:47 <frosch123> like 1x3 vs. 8x5 can have similar colors
23:17:58 <frosch123> otoh, maybe small industries should use the more obnoxious colors
23:18:13 <frosch123> if a industry has only a few pixels on the map, it's hard to find
23:18:58 <frosch123> it also makes sense to use the colors with higher scores for those industries which appear in multiple climates
23:19:19 <frosch123> so you use the good colors in most economies instead of skipping them
23:19:26 <frosch123> s/climates/economies/
23:21:19 <andythenorth> previously I have pretty much used those rules for manual picking :)
23:22:14 <frosch123> yeah, i basically suggest to use the first n colours from the list, and then assigning them manually :p
23:22:28 <frosch123> but i guess only assigning a subset manually is also fine
23:25:50 <andythenorth> I could repeat :P
23:25:57 <andythenorth> it’s rarely a problem
23:26:03 <andythenorth> first 40 or so :P
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