IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-05-06
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13:50:29 <Wolf01> "Fast and express belt length increase" \o/
13:50:37 <Wolf01> I could remove the mod from the list
13:51:14 <Wolf01> Not the same lengths but is really welcome
13:52:31 <Wolf01> supermop_ "Please remove tiles." XD only if freeform tracks and road will be added
13:54:02 <frosch123> length increase? for underground belt, or what?
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13:58:11 <Wolf01> Blueprint based gameplay would be a killer thing for sandbox, but without construction robots, you should be able to place the stuff directly
14:00:19 <andythenorth> have I offended frosch? :o
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14:27:44 <andythenorth> does grfcodec build with libpng 1.6.x?
14:38:41 <Wolf01> I'm considering to change nick...
14:51:36 <andythenorth> OS X isn’t supported, right?
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14:53:35 <Alberth> andy: what would happen if you ignore new BBs request to feed the cities?
14:58:00 <andythenorth> do you mean ‘is there a penalty’?
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15:12:37 <Alberth> that's the question indeed
15:12:54 <Alberth> maybe it's a wrong idea :)
15:13:27 <andythenorth> I hadn’t anticipated any penalty
15:13:34 <andythenorth> you either win, and level up, or you go again
15:13:43 <andythenorth> I was thinking it would be quarterly or annual or so
15:14:07 <andythenorth> particularly in desert or snow, it implies also delivering cargos, to grow the town
15:14:20 <andythenorth> any towns you like
15:14:39 <Alberth> it would just measure deliveries, right, rather than growth?
15:14:50 <andythenorth> transport game ;)
15:15:00 <andythenorth> the difficulty will vary wildly depending on map and town settings
15:15:12 <Alberth> so, not transporting cargoes to town is a valid option :)
15:15:30 <andythenorth> hotels, oil rigs, industries in SPI
15:15:45 <Alberth> plenty of pax wanting to go anywhere :)
15:15:56 <andythenorth> it’s like NCG for pax + BB for freight
15:16:06 <andythenorth> except NCG is win/lose, no ‘level up'
15:16:32 <Alberth> I was wondering, higher level is provide more, for longer time
15:17:21 <Alberth> which isn't terribly complicated if you build robust networks
15:17:53 <andythenorth> it’s just something to measure progress
15:18:20 <andythenorth> the town goals in BB seem weirdly specific, compared to freight
15:18:38 <andythenorth> x tonnes of coal by 1950 I can understand
15:18:42 <Alberth> you need more industries :p
15:18:54 <andythenorth> but x passengers between two places seems…less compelling :)
15:19:01 <andythenorth> maybe a zero-towns map :P
15:19:09 <Alberth> it never specifies "from" afaik
15:19:56 <Alberth> your imagination is filling too many blanks :)
15:20:36 <Alberth> well, could be another goal, I guess, that would be simplest
15:20:49 <Alberth> one that never expires
15:20:56 <andythenorth> deliver 100,000 passengers, anywhere?
15:21:27 <Alberth> euhm, didn't you propose "to" levels?
15:22:15 <Alberth> if you want to do that all in one spot, go ahead
15:22:23 <Alberth> using more spots is simpler :p
15:23:03 <Alberth> hmm, you could 'cheat' by transporting small distances
15:23:57 <Alberth> freight deliveries to a city would work, much more complicated to cheat
15:24:19 <Alberth> pax is trivial, just build sufficient bus stations
15:24:51 <Alberth> or tram stations, for that matter
15:26:09 <Alberth> could take the absolute difference between supply and delivery in the same city :p
15:26:35 <Alberth> so each city must be either supplier or provider
15:26:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't work well with symmetric cargodist
15:27:32 <Alberth> likely it won't work well with any cargo-dist :)
15:27:50 <Alberth> pax is inherently bi-directional
15:28:10 <Alberth> you need to explicitly stop that
15:29:29 <andythenorth> my original goal was distributing food
15:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds stupid
15:29:35 <andythenorth> I’m playing arctic currently
15:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> ... not the food bit
15:30:02 <andythenorth> doing a few point-to-point routes for food is fine, but unsatisfying
15:30:16 <andythenorth> I’d rather have some target to try and use all the food on the map
15:30:23 <andythenorth> can we measure supply?
15:30:39 <Alberth> andy needs a tap on the shoulder for doing good job :)
15:30:57 <andythenorth> can be nerfed by demolishing all the food supply industries :P
15:31:08 <Alberth> sure you can measure supply, just not correlated with deliveries
15:31:35 <andythenorth> in 1950, 9000 tons of food were produced, and 3000 tons were delivered?
15:32:00 <Alberth> better than the other way around :p
15:32:40 <Alberth> make station for "temporary" storage of food :p
15:33:00 <Alberth> then deliver it all in one year
15:33:13 <andythenorth> all systems can be gamed :)
15:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe some food was lost from low ratings?
15:33:43 <Eddi|zuHause> or you started producing a lot of food towards the end of the year, and it was not delivered yet?
15:33:50 <Alberth> ratings is just a matter of visiting the station often enough?
15:34:24 <Alberth> and yes, supply is counted only at final delivery
15:34:56 <Alberth> but that goes both ways, ie early in the year you get food that started its journey at the end of the previous year
15:35:17 <andythenorth> frosch123: when I run make for the grfcodec project, I get “make: *** No rule to make target `/opt/local/include/libpng16/png.h', needed by `objs/pngsprit.o'. Stop.”
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15:35:36 <andythenorth> dunno if that’s just a path issue
15:35:48 <andythenorth> I copied a grfcodec binary from my old mac, and it works
15:35:50 <Alberth> you have not libpng16?
15:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> probably a ./configure issue
15:36:24 <Alberth> at that path? probably not
15:36:30 <andythenorth> there isn’t a ./configure
15:36:39 <andythenorth> I used to be able to build grfcodec on my old mac, so eh
15:36:52 <Alberth> where does /opt/local come from then?
15:37:12 <Alberth> manual configu-thingy-ing?
15:37:13 <andythenorth> might have been macports put it there
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15:39:17 * andythenorth doesn’t have macports any longer
15:40:47 <Alberth> what does libpng-config --cflags say
15:41:39 <Alberth> maybe your installed library doesn't know the header files are gone
15:41:54 <andythenorth> -I/usr/local/Cellar/libpng/1.6.29/include/libpng16
15:42:30 <Alberth> that looks like a different path :)
15:43:04 * andythenorth reading the Makfile
15:43:13 <andythenorth> err, this is going badly :P
15:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> not enough "e"s? :p
15:45:34 <andythenorth> maybe my key is sticky
15:46:01 <andythenorth> this keyboard is so loud, I’ve started typing softly :P
15:49:12 <Alberth> well, food delivery would be fine, as it's not bi-directional in nature
15:50:00 <andythenorth> ok so /opt/local assumes macports is installed
15:50:08 <andythenorth> I can probably patch that to the brew location
15:50:13 * andythenorth will try in a bit
15:50:32 <andythenorth> Alberth: ‘Blanket Goals'
15:50:37 <andythenorth> ‘Whole Map Goals’? :P
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15:53:08 <quiznilo> andythenorth: I linked a youtube video in here the other day, how to properly transfer coal from trains to ship
15:53:09 <Alberth> BB already does specific goals
15:53:22 <quiznilo> thought you might be interested
15:54:20 <Alberth> and "delivery to cities" does sound map-wide :)
15:54:58 <Alberth> tbh I don't know if it should be BB-ish
15:55:16 <Alberth> at some point food delivery will be dominating anything else
15:55:29 <Alberth> it's more a global SV for food :)
15:57:16 <Alberth> doing something wrt to balancing between cities would be nice
15:57:30 <Alberth> or you deliver everything just to a few cities :p
15:57:33 <quiznilo> interesting... you don't get office buildings or other cool buildings in towns with TTRS until 1930
15:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> there was once a bug that all towns consisted only of banks
15:59:44 <Alberth> theaters bug still exist, doesn't it?
16:00:04 <quiznilo> havn't seen that in a bit
16:00:24 <andythenorth> theatres bug still exists
16:00:51 <Alberth> OpenTTD inhabitants are dedicated theatre visitors :)
16:01:54 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 208.09375
16:02:02 <andythenorth> one theatre per 200 people
16:02:22 <andythenorth> ‘global SV’ might be interesting
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16:40:05 <Wolf01> Increased roboport construction range to 55 (110x110 area) to make roboports able to build each other without interconnecting their logistic areas<- wtf?
17:06:25 <supermop> maybe an opengfx+ houses could help
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17:11:16 <LordAro> Wolf01: so that you may automatically connect "build networks" without also connecting logistic networks
17:11:25 <LordAro> e.g. for walls or something
17:15:32 <Wolf01> Nope... it only works with the first iteration of the network, the second iteration doesn't have access to storage and won't build
17:16:29 <Wolf01> I was thinking that too, to be able to build a crawling network without sharing the storage
17:22:16 <Wolf01> I welcome the area increment, so when I build my template at least now construction bots are able to harvest all the trees and rocks in the spot which before blocked the placement of roboports, but I really don't get the meaning of not interconnecting a logistic area, no access to storage mean no repair/restock ammo and no self replicating templates
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17:54:41 <LordAro> frosch123: wiki updated :)
17:55:38 <andythenorth> could we nerf passenger generation from towns, depending on number of destinations served (assuming cdist)?
17:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: any attempts at that turned out terrible
17:56:58 <andythenorth> was it tried as log(N)?
17:57:40 <Wolf01> LordAro, which version it was before? :D
17:58:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: basically there are two problems: 1) it's difficult to determine how many destinations there actually are, and which of them are reached. and b) if you make generation too low, you can't ever start a new game
17:58:23 <LordAro> Wolf01: as in, added stuff for the 1.7.1 release :p
17:58:32 <LordAro> you need TB to update mediawiki...
17:58:44 <Wolf01> Oh, I thought you updated the wiki itself
17:59:09 <LordAro> (and i can't say i blame him for not touching it, the mediawiki instance i manage is currently in "read only" mode as the last update broke authentication)
17:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, if you try to scale the production by reducing the station rating, you trigger all the weird effects of low ratings, like cargo disappearing and industries closing
17:59:18 <Wolf01> Btw, I'm fine with this one, no stupid javascript everywhere
17:59:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the station doesn’t know how many nodes are in the graph?
18:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the unserviced areas are not in the graph
18:00:32 <LordAro> Wolf01: i don't believe newer versions have gotten rid of the older themes
18:00:50 <andythenorth> probably best left alone then
18:01:16 <Wolf01> I should update mine too, but I shut down the server about 2 months ago
18:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and looking up for each house whether it's in the coverage area of a station is too cpu heavy
18:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so in a naive approach you have like a complexity of O(#tiles_in_map*station_spread^2*#networks)
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19:18:01 <Alberth> unfortunately not a good example for animal rights :)
19:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> how is "wryly" a valid word?
19:41:33 <andythenorth> to do something in a wry fashion
19:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i don't think that will become "mainstream"...
19:42:10 <Eddi|zuHause> a) you can't possibly kill enough cattle to fuel all cars in this world, and b) it's not vegan...
19:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same problem as with "bio"fuel, the theory is fine as long as you're just using waste products of other processing, but when the demand rises, you start allocating growing areas just to produce this type of fuel
20:03:23 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: how do you mean? the efficiency of sun->corn->methan->electricity is 0.2%, solar cells are barely 20%
20:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, besides that... the point is that areas are taken from producing food into producing fuel. and then rainforest areas are taken to produce the food
20:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and as soon as you're starting to cut down rainforest areas, you're no longer "sustainable"
20:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> which means you didn't achieve anything
20:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: also, getting the electricity from the solar cell into your car isn't exactly 100% either
20:13:46 * andythenorth considers “waste animal fats” cargo
20:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that many steps away from soylent green
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