IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2017-04-14
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00:11:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not how the song goes :p
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09:31:28 <andythenorth> such test games are needed
09:31:45 * andythenorth made a lot of FIRS changes without testing yet
09:32:29 <Wolf01> I was thinking about a functional test framework for grfs
09:34:22 <Wolf01> The problem of everything I think about is that points to a modular code :(
09:35:23 <Wolf01> Like using the OTTD code for (external) tools
09:37:26 <Wolf01> We could always have internal ones, like the sprite aligner etc
09:55:20 <Wolf01> Mmmh, I'm still with the idea that yesterday was friday and today is saturday
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10:05:57 <Eddi|zuHause> try this: yesterday was friday, and today is also friday
10:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> or today is both friday and sunday
10:06:55 <Wolf01> Eh, totally not sunday, I don't want to lose another day XD
10:11:40 <argoneus> is anyone here using win10?
10:12:19 <Wolf01> Nope, I don't see anyone, but I'm using it
10:12:30 <argoneus> did you have trouble updating
10:12:44 <argoneus> it kept freezing for me
10:12:49 <argoneus> you'd never guess what the solution was
10:12:59 <argoneus> I had to remove the sata cable from my dvd drive
10:13:21 <Wolf01> Usually are external drives the problem
10:13:55 <Wolf01> To avoid it I usually unplug them before the update, but this time I forgot and it was fine
10:14:51 <Wolf01> Do you have any specific driver installed for the dvd drive?
10:16:59 <Wolf01> I have another problem instead... I can't purchase the endless space dlc because it's now included in the collection, and they didn't unlock it for me :(
10:20:32 * andythenorth might add industrial trains to Road Hog
10:20:37 <andythenorth> separate to trams
10:20:42 <andythenorth> just to mess with people :P
10:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: doesn't steam offer you a "complete your collection" package?
10:27:14 <Wolf01> I already have the game
10:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, go to the game's store website
10:27:58 <Wolf01> The dlc is now part of the game edition I purchased back in 2012
10:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> go to game properties and recheck data?
10:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> or talk to steam support
10:29:20 <Wolf01> Tried everything, check game files, re-log in steam, ask for help... they said to remove the game from the library and purchase it again...
10:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> then try to get it refunded
10:30:25 <Wolf01> Ok, it's 1€, but I have some more content which I purchased with the game and I don't know if it's included in the new packet
10:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there's a "the game is now cheaper than when i bought it" option for refunds
10:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which probably applies if you refund all the dlcs
10:32:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and buy the new base game
10:33:07 <Wolf01> There is no more the base game, only the "complete collection"
10:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you put the collection into the cart, it doesn't only get the missing dlcs?
10:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i'd try the refund-game-and-all-dlcs way
10:58:49 <argoneus> I wish I could be a neet
10:58:58 <argoneus> whenever I feel like doing something fun like coding something for openttd or other games
10:59:03 <argoneus> I'm usually tired from the day
11:02:03 <Wolf01> At least you don't panic when you start try to code something
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11:03:58 <Wolf01> I'm like this for a week so far... I open VS, look at the code, panic, and leave it minimized
11:10:22 <Samu> i'm currently trying a patch to generate lock friendly town bridges over rivers
11:17:56 <Wolf01> BTW Eddi|zuHause, Transport Fever is now officially playable
11:23:40 <Wolf01> We need one for OTTD too
11:24:36 <Arveen> what does officially playable mean ?
11:25:02 <Arveen> was there a patch of interest ?
11:25:28 <Wolf01> You can play it without figuring why things don't work because stupid limitations, like terraforming near roads/tracks
11:25:54 <Wolf01> Also they finally added double-slip junctions
11:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i've even seen some of that original episode with the cars on tracks :p
11:26:41 <Wolf01> It still miss one way roads and a sort of traffic control on road crossings (with enough traffic it seem to be like in India)
11:26:42 <Arveen> i was kind of interested in this game until i noticed the way how trains work is not like ottd
11:27:09 <Wolf01> Also now it's finally possible to force replace the vehicles
11:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Arveen: how is that a problem?
11:28:04 <Arveen> i like to build ottdcoop like networks
11:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause> coop's a bit tricky without multiplayer :p
11:29:36 <Wolf01> I would like to have an italian train set...
11:29:42 <Arveen> i did not look the game up after its initial release but back then it looked to me like you cant build complex networks
11:30:03 <Wolf01> Oh, you can, but they might not be profitable
11:30:16 <Samu> why am I getting an assert
11:30:39 <Samu> IsValidTile(bridge_tile + delta_side) && IsWaterTile(bridge_tile + delta) && IsInclinedSlope(GetTileSlope(bridge_tile + delta_side)) && IsRiver(bridge_tile + delta_side)
11:31:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the biggest problems with complex networks were that you couldn't put switches and bridges where you wanted them
11:31:49 <Eddi|zuHause> always some weird "slope too steep" or "pillar collision" or just general "collision" errors
11:32:28 <Wolf01> They reduced those problems, now you are more freedom
11:32:43 <Samu> i was adding the wrong delta :(
11:34:56 <Samu> let's see if it doesn't error now
11:37:44 <Alberth> wolf, just delete the code ?
11:38:42 <Wolf01> BTW, Arveen, the biggest difference with OTTD is that lines use only one platform in stations, so you can't have 25346 trains for the same line waiting in the station, and doesn't make sense to have them
11:39:25 <Arveen> ah yeah, i think that was another thing i noticed when watching some twitch streams
11:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, you cannot "load balance" between two platforms, that is a bit annoying if you have many lines that arrive infrequently
11:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> or one line that is really frequent
11:41:17 <Wolf01> Build yards before stations
11:41:29 <Wolf01> And use lots of waypoints :D
11:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "one platform per line" is a bit space-inefficient
11:42:35 <Samu> generating 8192 rivers and 12032 towns
11:42:53 <Samu> ought to be enough to check if it asserts or not
11:43:26 <Wolf01> I have 5 trains on a steel mill, 3 steel and 2 iron ore, the station in just 2 platforms, the incoming track is split in 2 with waypoints and signals to accomodate 2 trains so it won't block the other route
11:44:44 <Wolf01> And since it almost matches my OTTD game style, I'm not so baffled about having stations with 2 platforms, or even one
11:47:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not worried about putting 3 input lines on 1 platform, and 2 output lines on 1 platform.
11:47:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm worried about 5 input lines on 3 platforms
11:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> which are not synchronized, so however you distribute them, 2 trains will eventually arrive to the same platform
11:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and then the second train will wait there, while another platform clearly is free
11:48:55 <Wolf01> Oh, the most annoying thing of all: stations are separate between freight and pax, trains can enter each station (and have the wrong type in the orders too)
11:50:27 <Wolf01> I usually have that problem with these stations, as I build them in couple, so I can't even upgrade them because they block each other and I end up with like 6 lines in 2 platforms
11:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's so easy to put down the wrong station
11:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't change over to the other type
11:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and you cannot rebuild them, because they have slightly different layouts
11:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> link is probably incomplete
11:55:47 <Wolf01> Is steam stupid? I'm copying the entire link
11:57:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a nice and tidy stockpile there :p
11:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and that definitely needs a more elaborate crossing
11:58:45 <Wolf01> It needs traffic lights, roundabouts and oneway roads
11:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that was also the first mod i downloaded for cities:skylines, allowing to modify crossings to forbid left turns and stuff
11:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing worse than a 6 lane road which blocks because some random guy wanted to turn left and block 3 opposing lanes
12:00:07 <Wolf01> On the first image, top-right, I destroyed that intersection and made it as a complete overpass with 4 ramps, but cars still keep use the wrong ramps :(
12:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i've not actually played much beyond 1950
12:01:17 <Wolf01> They should implement "prefer turn right if you can reach the same destination"
12:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so i didn't encounter that type of traffic problems
12:03:45 <Wolf01> I'm playing with "daylength" at 4x or 8x, this save has something like 40 hours on it and I just arrived to 1992
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13:48:34 <Wolf01> I should do some of this stuff
13:52:06 <Alberth> standard unix configuration :)
13:58:19 <Wolf01> I'm thinking about installing xming on windows
14:00:49 <Alberth> you have a remote unix system?
14:01:10 <Alberth> iirc that windows ubuntu thingie can also open X programs
14:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really have a windows 10 to play around with
14:01:58 <Alberth> it's a bit silly imho, installing OS B inside OS A to run B programs
14:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that more silly than installing wine to run windows programs on linux?
14:04:01 <Wolf01> <Alberth> iirc that windows ubuntu thingie can also open X programs < Not yet, WSL doesn't have an xserver
14:04:56 <Wolf01> And since it doesn't have kernel access, you can't just install one in ubuntu
14:09:31 <Alberth> I was quite sure I read that recently, but can't find it :(
14:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but shouldn't a windows-x-server suffice?
14:11:17 <Wolf01> Yep, that's why I said to install xming or similar
14:12:58 <Alberth> ha, blog says to "export DISPLAY=:0", something we stopped doing since ssh connections became standard :)
14:13:28 <Wolf01> Yeah, but no xserver on display 0
14:14:21 <Wolf01> I would like if they add one by default, so one shouldn't need mingw crap
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14:39:25 <Samu> rivers aren't generated in tropic anymore?
14:40:39 <Samu> testing r27854 and i don't see rivers being generated, weird
14:41:14 <Wolf01> Time to update the topic with "- Feature: removed rivers from tropic because yes"
14:41:37 <Samu> tested in temperate tileset, and they're generated here
14:43:39 <Samu> they're also generated in arctic
14:44:30 <Samu> and in toyland too, just tested
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15:13:13 <andythenorth> it might have been
15:13:40 <andythenorth> Samu: tropic just doesn’t generate rivers much
15:13:44 <andythenorth> nobody knows why :)
15:24:45 <supermop> depends on where tropic is i guess
15:25:56 <andythenorth> it’s somewhere without rivers
15:26:03 <andythenorth> also somewhere without mountains eh
15:26:41 <andythenorth> it’s a bit better without TGP
15:27:17 <andythenorth> at least original generator had the idea of half rainforest / half desert
15:27:28 <andythenorth> instead of all flat, unfeatured
15:29:14 <andythenorth> original tropic has crap coasts though
15:31:28 <andythenorth> peter1138: why does TGP bother with so many lines of crap for tropic? o_O
15:31:34 <andythenorth> it doesn’t need to do all that, just to make flat
15:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: richk was a bit... strange?
15:39:41 <andythenorth> * literally just lies
15:40:02 <andythenorth> “Desert landscape is handled different to all others to give a desert valley between two high mountains.”
15:40:24 <andythenorth> amusing situation
15:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i think what he meant was that desert is not applied above a certain level
15:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a silly thing as well, but it's not TGP's fault
15:50:46 <andythenorth> tile 24 (dec) is the water station tile?
15:55:23 <frosch123> if in doubt, check whether it worked before mhl
16:11:16 <andythenorth> I have 1.3.0 here
16:11:31 <andythenorth> that doesn’t appear to have mhl, and tropic TGP is useless there too :)
16:16:00 <peter1138> maybe i should relook at my own generator
16:17:30 <andythenorth> give it some weird tuning parameters :)
16:17:35 <andythenorth> so we can make weird things
16:17:45 <andythenorth> instead of a bunch of sensible parameters that do nothing good :)
16:19:01 <andythenorth> plateaus: small<->wide
16:19:08 <andythenorth> valleys: small<->wide
16:19:29 <andythenorth> volcanoes: none<->lots
16:19:48 <andythenorth> polders: none<->lots
16:19:58 <peter1138> i couldn't make it as fast as tgp
16:22:46 <andythenorth> TGP is cheap, and fast :P
16:26:08 <supermop> waiting for land to generate isn't that bad
16:26:45 <supermop> unless you are insane and constantly rolling new 4kx4k maps
16:27:00 <peter1138> well you need to with tgp cos it's often poo :p
16:27:07 <peter1138> especially with the stupid variety bollocks
16:28:04 <andythenorth> between TGP crap maps, and the random choices in GS, I have to use ‘newgame’ a lot :P
16:28:14 <andythenorth> also FIRS building ports in stupid tiny seas
16:28:32 <andythenorth> sometimes takes 15 mins to get a decent map-GS-FIRS combo
16:30:21 <andythenorth> maybe I should fork Silicon Valley
16:30:31 <andythenorth> add a cargo choosing menu
16:48:54 <quiznilo> in the base game, without any newgrfs, is there some year that cabooses become obsolete?
16:51:28 <andythenorth> there are no cabooses in base game
16:51:51 <quiznilo> that's why none are mentioned on the wiki
16:54:13 <andythenorth> ammonia plant should be like a mine eh?
16:54:25 <andythenorth> haber process -> chemicals etc
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17:03:49 <DannyK_> Hello, do bus or train depots have maintenance costs?
17:05:05 <frosch123> if you enable infra maintenance cost
17:06:16 <frosch123> actually they only cost the same as track
17:06:46 <DannyK_> frosch123: was it introduced in openttd or already there in ttd?
17:07:01 <frosch123> infra maintenance is ottd 1.2 or 1.3
17:08:27 <DannyK_> I'm asking and considering whether or not having four or more depots per line would be a good idea ...
17:09:46 <_dp_> enabling breakdowns is a bad idea :p
17:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a basic station maintenance before infra maintenance
17:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but afaik nothing for depots
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17:25:19 <quiznilo> they're cool, you have to be clever in places
17:26:14 <DannyK_> quiznilo: yeah, I don't like making my life easier in games
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17:28:09 <DannyK_> quiznilo: I wonder if it would be possible to take $5000 and build a highly profitable network, starting with buses
17:28:22 <Samu> i think I got this, town bridges are no longer building over
17:28:30 <quiznilo> I've given up trying to make money with road vehicles
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17:28:39 <Samu> river tiles or near if there could be built a lock
17:28:43 <quiznilo> I mean, it's possible, just looking at yearly profits
17:28:49 <andythenorth> Dakkus: if $5000 buys you a bus, a depot, and 2 stops
17:28:50 <quiznilo> I use them in special situations
17:29:16 <Alberth> and connecting road between the stops :p
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17:30:29 <Wolf01> Mmmh, mastering docker ebook, should I master docker too?
17:30:58 <Wolf01> I'll download it anywau
17:31:35 <Alberth> trouble of that is that at some point you also need to read all of it
17:31:55 <Wolf01> Maybe... but this should be valid for my steam library too
17:33:18 <andythenorth> Alberth: just build in town :)
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17:36:46 <andythenorth> looked at that when I was designing FIRS Steeltown
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17:38:52 <quiznilo> which newGRF was it that had vehicles starting in year 0?
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17:52:53 * andythenorth got rid of last elements from C-pre-processor FIRS
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17:57:46 * andythenorth has an interesting refactoring problem
17:58:33 <andythenorth> it’s been faster for a month or so
17:58:37 <andythenorth> for multiple reasons :)
17:58:52 <andythenorth> the last couple of things I removed today were just tidying code
17:59:28 <andythenorth> so I have hundreds of spritesets, all declaring a spurious ‘id’ string
17:59:34 <andythenorth> because I didn’t know about __name__
18:00:27 <andythenorth> I’d like to remove them with a script
18:01:23 <andythenorth> I figured there was a better way than reading the file with python and using splits :P
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18:02:13 <Alberth> I often read it as a list of lines, hack the lines, then write it back
18:02:46 <Alberth> especially useful for multi-line stuff
18:06:22 <Alberth> industry doesn't know a unique prefix?
18:06:48 <andythenorth> in which case? o_O
18:07:21 <Alberth> industry.add_spriteset(...) <-- seems like it could inject an id
18:07:51 <Alberth> ie why do you manually specify id = ... ?
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18:11:00 <andythenorth> that’s why I want to delete them
18:11:07 <andythenorth> it’s historical reasons
18:11:36 <andythenorth> I can probably just count first line after add_spriteset
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18:11:57 <andythenorth> then fix any error s manually
18:12:27 <Alberth> any "id = " line removed?
18:12:39 <Alberth> you seem to have more
18:12:43 <andythenorth> any “id = “ *inside* a spriteset
18:13:09 <andythenorth> spritelayout ids are needed currently
18:13:25 <Alberth> python script looks easiest
18:14:03 <Alberth> likely sed can do it too, but I'd need to search how to do it only for sprite sets
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18:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could use python's compiler module to read the abstract syntax tree, delete the node with the id assignment, and generate new python code
18:56:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I considered just writing out new code with a template
18:56:57 <andythenorth> your method sounds more sophisticated :)
18:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or you use awk, and on each spriteset line you switch on a flag, on each spritelayout line you switch off a flag, then drop the id line based on whether that flag is set
18:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> or just drop the lines matching "id.*spriteset"
19:00:37 <andythenorth> not sure I can get the name for a python object
19:01:18 <andythenorth> they don’t have names
19:01:26 <andythenorth> without the name….I still need the id :)
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19:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't know what you're trying to do
19:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but probably you can generate the id on the fly by just increasing a counter while you write the nml code
19:05:52 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you can probably drop the variable for each spriteset, and just make a list of spritesets
19:06:17 <andythenorth> not easy to reuse without the variable
19:06:34 <andythenorth> I’m sure the spriteset ids could be generated
19:06:49 <andythenorth> they’re meaningless as long as they’re unique and stable
19:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> how is "spritesets[10]" more difficult to use than "spriteset_11"?
19:08:35 <andythenorth> but spriteset[10] is harder to use than spriteset_crane_animated
19:08:51 <andythenorth> the variables aren’t always named spriteset_n
19:09:30 <andythenorth> spritesets get stored in a list, generating ids should be trivial
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20:23:25 <andythenorth> multiplayer game? o-O
20:32:31 * andythenorth trying to play openttd
20:33:01 <andythenorth> can’t get a map without ports in tiny lakes
20:43:00 <andythenorth> could a coast tile cache a flag - for ‘is connected to map edge via sea’?
20:43:09 <andythenorth> pathfinding that on demand might be unwise :P
20:50:08 <quiznilo> do industries in FIRS expand?
20:50:26 <Wolf01> Mmmmh, that might be tricky
20:50:28 <andythenorth> no industries in OpenTTD expand
20:50:36 <andythenorth> Wolf01: it’s tricky :P
20:51:08 <quiznilo> this oil refinery I have is giant, I don't remember it being this big, 4x6
20:51:56 <andythenorth> there have been suggestions about tile checks, $someone on here insisted there was a way
20:51:56 <andythenorth> but it wasn’t Eddi so they were wrong :|
20:51:56 <andythenorth> I think it needs to be handled by openttd, pathdinging
20:52:49 <Wolf01> Pathdinging seem a good idea
20:53:52 <andythenorth> quiznilo: probably just a big layout
20:54:35 <Wolf01> If we do something really good for ships, like identification of water bodies, we should be able to fix even this problem for port industries
20:55:27 <andythenorth> could kill it at source, by preventing tiny enclosed seas
20:55:42 <andythenorth> TGP is, being kind to it, crap
20:55:45 <Wolf01> Tiny enclosed seas are nice
20:56:28 <andythenorth> if they were tiny enclosed lakes, the issue would disappear :)
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21:27:35 <andythenorth> does anyone else get openttd window focus on mouse hover?
21:27:38 <andythenorth> it’s driving me nuts
21:27:43 <andythenorth> it appears to be intermittent
21:33:41 <peter1138> calculate water area
21:34:33 <andythenorth> count connected water tiles
21:39:22 <andythenorth> don’t even need to count all of them
21:40:36 <andythenorth> could cap at 4096
21:40:44 <andythenorth> that’s definitely not a small sea
21:57:20 <Alberth> smallest map enitrely sea :p
21:58:24 <Alberth> so no sea industries at 64x64 ?
21:59:27 <andythenorth> this is a good point :P
21:59:39 <Alberth> not sure if the economies make sense at such a map
21:59:40 <andythenorth> any solution so far has unwanted side effects :)
22:00:06 <Alberth> I think "border" should count as infinite
22:00:52 <Alberth> "enuf" is better, probably
22:01:53 <Alberth> I think I played at 64x64 with FIRS one time, looong time ago. Island was so crowded, you had to use trucks
22:02:25 <Alberth> neighbouring industries just a handful of tiles away :)
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22:03:21 <Alberth> I had one of each, I think, was quite fun
22:08:29 <andythenorth> surprised they fit :)
22:09:36 <peter1138> i think 64x64 is a bit small
22:09:41 <peter1138> but i played a good 128x128 game once
22:09:49 <peter1138> also 64x128+ is okay
22:13:12 <andythenorth> so 32x32 minimum sea? :P
22:21:22 <andythenorth> no idea how to do that :)
22:21:48 <andythenorth> I’m assuming it either (1) is enforced at map gen time or (2) newgrf can treat it as a tile property
22:27:12 <Wolf01> So, remove water, problem solved
22:31:56 <Alberth> can't you peek at a few tiles, say one every 3x3, and require at least N of them are water?
22:32:02 <Wolf01> I'm thinking to remove some code this evening but I'm afraid I would panic as soon as I look at the code
22:32:23 <Alberth> delete lines with eyes closed :p
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22:45:40 <V453000> friday friday gotta get forum riot on friday
22:46:52 <__ln__> did anyone know that chinese airspace operates in meters, not feet?
22:47:07 <__ln__> well i hope the pilots knew, but i mean anyone here.
22:49:24 <__ln__> from now on you shall be the count V453000
22:49:45 <V453000> good, then I dare answering thee that I didn't know for shit
22:49:54 <argoneus> what forum riot V friend
22:50:14 <V453000> people just getting very impatient about factorio update
22:50:19 <V453000> I understand them but yeah
22:51:09 <Wolf01> You old fooook, you are playing the next version since forever :D
23:02:45 <V453000> I was playing it Wolf01 when it didn't have almost any of the new features :) after that I simply didn't have time
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continue to next day ⏵
