IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-05-20
            
00:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> this picture makes my brain hurt :/ http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1149354#p1149354
00:11:30 <Supercheese> agreed
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02:06:41 <supermop> yo
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03:04:43 <Gantradies> hey
03:04:44 <Gantradies> erm.
03:04:48 <Gantradies> bit of an odd question
03:05:07 <Gantradies> is there somewhere where i can nab the 1.4.4 Winx64 stable installer srtill?
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03:05:50 <Gantradies> our server's running 1.4.4 and i dont know linuix well enoguh ot update it wityhout the fear of screwing something up ( our admin insisted on a linuix console session, something aobut less load)
03:06:21 <Supercheese> there should be
03:06:53 <Gantradies> first look on the site only has donwloads for the new version available, and im still sleepy right now
03:06:54 <Supercheese> http://us.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/releases/1.4.4/index.html
03:07:04 <Gantradies> thank you!
03:07:09 <Supercheese> or you can choose a closer mirror if you aren't in the US
03:07:27 <Gantradies> any major changes in the new version i sohudl know aobut? oyuk now, anything big?
03:08:02 <glx> it should pick the closest one if you remove the us. part
03:08:31 <Supercheese> yeah was copypasted before I could edit
03:08:43 <Supercheese> could/thought to
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05:55:44 <supermop> quiet day
06:06:00 <Supercheese> mas o menos
06:39:53 <supermop> anyone have an oculus rift?
06:49:02 <Supercheese> nope
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07:32:07 <andythenorth> o/
07:32:09 <andythenorth> also pikka
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07:33:59 <supermop> not sure how wide this thing is from pictures
07:34:06 <supermop> dont think i'll model it
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07:59:23 <andythenorth> hmm
07:59:26 <andythenorth> also bah]
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08:00:56 <supermop> just modeled a building across the street from my project for no real reason
08:01:45 <supermop> 17x36m though so a bit awkward to shoehorn into ottd tiles
08:03:13 <supermop> 1.5x3 tiles, maybe i can scale it by 2/3 without the windows looking bizarre
08:22:53 <andythenorth> nml spritesets have identifiers
08:23:05 <andythenorth> which nml will expand to hex IDs at compile time
08:23:23 * andythenorth assumes
08:25:37 <andythenorth> meh
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08:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> random ramblings are random?
08:40:42 <V453000> .
08:43:51 <supermop> yep
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09:16:45 <Pikka> hello hello
09:17:48 <supermop> yo
09:19:40 <Pikka> what's the haps?
09:22:15 <supermop> modelling buildings on this block:
09:22:17 <supermop> https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-37.813143,144.966925,3a,75y,14.92h,95.65t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sdASJzqUcFoPDVPC89bd9iQ!2e0!6m1!1e1
09:22:46 <supermop> first the deco tower, now the terrace shophouses next to it
09:23:31 <supermop> when can we pay pineapples for pineapples?
09:23:35 <supermop> or pledge
09:29:11 <Pikka> late next month probably :)
09:29:53 <supermop> nice!
09:30:00 <Pikka> nice block, trams and everything
09:30:55 <supermop> i was doing work work for something in one of the buildings, and thought maybe i should model a few across the street for context
09:31:02 <supermop> and got sidetracked
09:31:45 <supermop> a melb house set really need those awnings over the sidewalk in some cases
09:35:15 <supermop> ok going to run to coles back in a few
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09:53:03 <V453000> the latest nightly causes desyncs even with paused game :0
09:53:23 <V453000> k maybe not but desyncs :0
10:07:23 <Pikka> oops
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10:11:01 <Pikka> herr thenorth I presume
10:21:45 <andythenorth> it is
10:21:59 <andythenorth> what is 0 || 0 || 1
10:22:01 <andythenorth> 1?
10:22:03 <andythenorth> or 0?
10:22:52 <^Spike^> 1
10:22:58 <^Spike^> atleast if it is normal programming
10:25:25 <andythenorth> ta
10:28:07 <supermop> wet socks
10:28:15 <supermop> and tram had to reboot
10:31:29 <Pikka> so
10:31:42 <Pikka> is adjusting cargo decay rate a bad feature?
10:32:14 <V453000> I do it, I justify it as "slugs are eating cargo"
10:32:24 <V453000> in reward they get increased power :D
10:33:19 <Pikka> on the one hand, hidden stats are bad.
10:33:57 <V453000> aint hidden, red text :>
10:34:06 <Pikka> on the other, it seems necessary to widen the performance gap between buses and coaches...
10:34:46 <V453000> makes sense actually yes
10:34:56 <Pikka> buses and trams
10:34:56 <V453000> but I would just increase load speed
10:35:13 <V453000> long distance busses with long load speed makes them stupidly unfit for city centers
10:35:21 <Pikka> yeah
10:35:28 <V453000> then you can make them very fast and with ok capacity
10:35:30 <Pikka> but the problem is not that coaches are too good at short distance
10:35:37 <Pikka> the problem is the buses are too good at long distance :P
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10:35:58 <V453000> if they have stupidly bad loading speed, a normal bus with good loading speed and half the speed will win
10:37:09 <Pikka> I'm thinking buses (and trams) should have faster decay, while coaches keep the same decay as other vehicle types
10:37:20 <Pikka> a no-toilets malus
10:38:51 <V453000> mh
10:40:01 <andythenorth> I do it for some stuff
10:40:16 <andythenorth> refrigerated
10:43:22 <supermop> i think it makes sense
10:43:53 <supermop> otherwise there is really no point in a coach/intercity train/etc
10:44:39 <V453000> many people wont care about profits
10:45:01 <V453000> and the difference will be so small in the global scope of a bigger network that it isnt very strong argument
10:45:13 <Pikka> true
10:45:18 <Pikka> there are other distinctions
10:45:27 <Pikka> but I'm trying to make a distinction in profits also :)
10:45:55 <andythenorth> hide_sprite: (construction_state != 3) || LOAD_TEMP(13) || LOAD_TEMP(128);
10:46:00 <andythenorth> doesn’t :(
10:46:08 <andythenorth> even when LOAD_TEMP(128) = 1
10:46:19 <andythenorth> what do I do wrong :(
10:51:49 <Pikka> NML is all welsh to me
10:52:52 <andythenorth> yeah
10:54:16 <andythenorth> in time-honoured fashion
10:54:18 * andythenorth gives up
10:55:42 <andythenorth> I store 1, but it’s read as 0
10:55:43 <andythenorth> meh
10:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> <Pikka> I'm thinking buses (and trams) should have faster decay, while coaches keep the same decay as other vehicle types <-- that was basically the intention behind the feature
10:56:37 <Pikka> yes
10:56:45 <Pikka> doesn't necessarily make it a good feature, though ;)
10:57:01 <Pikka> it works for me, I'll stick with it for now. :) We'll see what testers think, one day.
10:59:11 <supermop> i'd be happy making no money on most bus legs if it meant getting people around smoothly to other legs
10:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and you know you can un-hide a feature with CB23? :p
11:00:16 * andythenorth is so crap at bool
11:00:29 <andythenorth> (1) is false
11:00:34 <andythenorth> but (1 == 1) is true
11:00:36 <andythenorth> why?
11:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's not actually 1?
11:01:26 <andythenorth> (LOAD_TEMP(128)) is false
11:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe the specs are weird
11:01:37 <andythenorth> but (LOAD_TEMP(128) == 1) is true
11:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe nml does invalid operations
11:01:58 <andythenorth> I suspect that nml evaluates 1 == True in some places, but not others
11:02:50 <andythenorth> or more likely, I’m doing it wrong
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11:12:10 <__ln__> anyone been to Gibraltar and/or Ceuta?
11:13:01 <andythenorth> does using LOAD_TEMP() destroy the register contents?
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11:34:57 <andythenorth> reading a register twice produces different values
11:35:10 <andythenorth> maybe
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12:11:27 <andythenorth> yeah
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12:47:21 <andythenorth> ha
12:47:27 * andythenorth had multiple switches
12:47:36 <andythenorth> scribbling over the same register
12:47:42 <andythenorth> took a while to find that :P
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13:03:02 <andythenorth> hmm
13:03:03 <andythenorth> works
13:03:07 <andythenorth> but compiles slower :)
13:03:12 <andythenorth> that was 6 hours well spent :)
13:07:30 <V453000> XD
13:07:49 <andythenorth> winning
13:07:59 <andythenorth> but eh, I learnt some things about registers
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13:28:05 <andythenorth> yay
13:28:08 <andythenorth> now actually faster
13:28:13 <andythenorth> probably about 5s, averaged
13:28:31 <V453000> what are the new features? :P
13:28:34 <andythenorth> faster
13:29:12 <andythenorth> hide_sprite calculations are down once instead of (count of building sprites) * (num date variations) * ([snow, non-snow])
13:29:21 <andythenorth> down / done /s
13:29:30 <andythenorth> so wastes less OpenTTD time also
13:30:11 <andythenorth> @calc 16 * 4 * 4 * 2
13:30:11 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 512
13:30:13 <andythenorth> yeah
13:30:19 <andythenorth> once is better than 512 times
13:30:32 <andythenorth> per industry
13:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should probably give the registers names, instead of using the numbers. helps in keeping things unique
13:31:01 <andythenorth> yes
13:31:08 <andythenorth> I am going to do that
13:31:20 <V453000> nowai
13:31:39 <andythenorth> afaict, nml doesn’t provide any shorthand for that
13:31:45 <andythenorth> I can do it in the compile though
13:31:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but that's what you have macros for
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13:33:21 * andythenorth considers *not* removing all the CPP
13:33:33 <andythenorth> it’s remarkably convenient for trivial identifiers
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13:38:38 <andythenorth> eh 50s compile with primed caches
13:38:51 <andythenorth> pretty poor, but better than 71s
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15:35:21 <andythenorth> how can I make it faster?
15:46:48 <andythenorth> spritelayouts are slow
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19:42:17 <frosch123> hoi
19:55:48 <Alberth> doesn't seem terribly busy here, today
20:03:39 <Taede> ello
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20:08:56 <andythenorth> quak
20:10:19 <Alberth> moin
20:10:25 <frosch123> someone knows a 32bpp vehicle grf that uses the complete 0-255 brightness range in company colours?
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20:12:20 <andythenorth> so I managed to make FIRS compile about 6 seconds faster
20:12:50 <andythenorth> took me about 8 hours
20:13:05 <andythenorth> good result eh?
20:14:21 <frosch123> how many irc lines?
20:14:29 <andythenorth> couple of hundred?
20:14:46 <frosch123> good result?
20:14:54 <andythenorth> think so
20:15:20 <andythenorth> a full compile with primed caches is now about 52s
20:15:40 <andythenorth> firs.nml is 10.9MB instead of 14.1MB
20:16:00 <andythenorth> the resulting grf is 3.2MB instead of 5.2MB
20:16:10 <andythenorth> previous compile was about 71s
20:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> just remember that for every hour you spend writing code you spend 9 hours maintaining that code
20:17:24 <frosch123> so you deleted lots of stuff :p
20:17:36 <andythenorth> I deleted lots of generated code
20:17:55 <andythenorth> look up the snow tile once per spritelayout, not ~512 times
20:17:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r27289 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.cpp (2015-05-20 20:17:50 +0200 )
20:17:59 <DorpsGek> -Fix: some uninitialised instance variables
20:18:17 <andythenorth> also no longer runs out of registers trivially in the graphics chain
20:18:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r27290 /trunk/src/os (3 files in 3 dirs) (2015-05-20 20:18:26 +0200 )
20:18:33 <DorpsGek> -Fix: sanitize the command line arguments before doing anything complex with them
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20:24:09 * andythenorth has run out of obvious ways to make FIRS faster now
20:24:35 <andythenorth> been wondering about one text cb switch chain instead of 66
20:24:39 <andythenorth> dunno
20:32:17 <andythenorth> commenting the text switches out makes no difference to compile time
20:32:18 <andythenorth> interesting
20:39:34 <argoneus> good morning train friends
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20:41:47 <V453000> I can make you such vehicle frosch123
20:42:00 <V453000> try nuts, idk how brightness goes there
20:42:07 <V453000> slugs/maglev has a lot of CC
20:42:13 <frosch123> ok :)
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20:44:38 <argoneus> V453000: can you into 3d graphics in general?
20:45:31 <V453000> wat?
20:45:37 <argoneus> like bump maps, specular/diffusion lighting etc
20:45:42 <V453000> is that a sentence? :D
20:45:56 <V453000> yes I know some stuff about it
20:45:58 <frosch123> his sentence a verb :)
20:46:13 <V453000> I yes
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20:46:37 <argoneus> :<
20:46:40 <argoneus> stop bullying me
20:47:09 <frosch123> he, it's one of my favorite responses to broken sentences
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20:47:28 <V453000> :)
20:47:39 <frosch123> not sure where i learned it
20:47:42 <frosch123> maybe from dalestan
20:48:00 <argoneus> V453000: do you know what anisotropic filtering is?
20:48:13 <V453000> yes
20:48:17 <argoneus> wow
20:48:21 <argoneus> teach me
20:48:23 <argoneus> senpai
20:48:41 <argoneus> im trying to into 3d
20:48:44 <argoneus> but there's a lot of stuff to learn
20:49:18 <V453000> well, anisotropy is when the "thing" like reflection is like transformed to sides
20:49:30 <V453000> in short it is used to simulate brushed materials, typically brushed metal
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20:50:29 <Rubidium> isn't that just a fancy word for polaroid filters?
20:50:54 <V453000> regardless what software you are using, most of the terms will be same/similar with this http://www.blenderguru.com/articles/cycles-shader-encyclopedia/
20:51:01 <V453000> idk Rubi :)
20:52:57 <Rubidium> interesting how abbreviations get abbreviated even more, so the text could be interpreted in two completely different ways
20:53:00 <andythenorth> looks to me like anistropic deals with anti-alias blur of a texture that is mapped onto a receeding plane
20:53:15 <argoneus> the way I understood it
20:53:15 <andythenorth> anisotropic *
20:53:23 <argoneus> textures are usually mapped to a rectangular area
20:53:31 <argoneus> except like in a game you see the textures under an angle
20:53:40 <argoneus> and anisotropic filtering is supposed to map the texture properly to the angled texture
20:53:43 <argoneus> else it's blurred
20:53:51 <argoneus> to the angled model*
20:53:52 * Rubidium thought 3D works only in triangles
20:53:56 <V453000> I guess you could explain it that way
20:54:06 <argoneus> there's tris and quads
20:54:07 <argoneus> :<
20:54:08 <andythenorth> looks like edge enhancement to me
20:54:16 <V453000> it kind of does Rubi but yeah :)
20:54:33 <V453000> quads always have a triangulating diagonal which splits it to triangles
20:54:49 <V453000> or any other polygons larger than quads or whatnot
20:54:51 <andythenorth> instead of averaging neighbouring pixels (resulting in mush), it seems to preserve contrast and hue whilst reducing the pixel dimensions
20:55:18 * andythenorth only read wikipedia page about it, probably lies
20:55:38 <argoneus> isn't anisotropic filtering a different layer from nearest neighbour / bilinear / trilinear filtering?
20:55:54 <Rubidium> you shouldn't have said that... now we can't use your talk about it here as source for the wikipedia page
20:56:01 <V453000> probably not argoneus
20:56:21 <V453000> idk what exactly bilinear and whatnot filtering does but I think that is more related to sampling of the render
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20:56:33 <V453000> (how pixels of the result are approximated etc)
20:56:33 <Wolf01> hi hi
20:56:38 <argoneus> oh
20:56:44 <argoneus> anisotropic filtering is a better trilinear filtering
20:56:48 <andythenorth> nearest neighbour = smush
20:56:49 <argoneus> that works for angled things
20:56:55 <argoneus> apparently
20:57:04 <V453000> while anisotropy is a property of the material where the shader behaves that way
20:57:12 <andythenorth> photoshop has similar filters when resizing
20:57:13 <V453000> I think at least, that is how I know it
20:57:16 <andythenorth> it’s easy to see the results there
20:57:21 <V453000> okay
20:57:28 <V453000> :D
21:10:01 <andythenorth> so FIRS coal mine
21:10:06 <andythenorth> needs re-implemented for reasons
21:10:24 <andythenorth> currently uses TTD default tiles and layouts, swaps the sprites
21:10:35 <andythenorth> should I keep the layouts, or do new ones?
21:10:49 <andythenorth> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#coal_mine
21:10:56 * andythenorth outsources decisions :P
21:17:14 <Alberth> assuming it's not going to be very much different, I'd just keep what you have
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21:18:13 <andythenorth> winner
21:18:31 <Alberth> hmm, coal... power plant... I read mb's proposal on ECS, he proposes sulphur as output cargo (just above 2.2 http://www.ttdpatch.de/ecs.html )
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21:18:55 * andythenorth would consider building materials
21:19:08 <Alberth> as input, so it can be burned :p
21:19:26 <andythenorth> hmm, Michael gets so much right imho
21:19:30 <andythenorth> shame he won’t play nicely :P
21:21:43 <andythenorth> FIRS is pretty much in-line with original ECS idea
21:21:57 <Alberth> it quite is
21:22:33 <Alberth> but given the source (some standard classification of industries), it's not that surprising
21:23:04 <Alberth> you've been thinking about such things too for a long time
21:24:20 <andythenorth> he :)
21:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <argoneus> there's tris and quads <-- shouldn't it be "tetras"?
21:31:42 <argoneus> I think they're called quads specifically Eddi|zuHause
21:31:49 <argoneus> but I could be wrong
21:31:55 * argoneus paging V453000
21:38:56 <frosch123> ten years ago there were triangle fans an strips
21:39:28 <frosch123> all with the purpose to draw as many triangles as possibly with as little individual vertices being transfered to the gpu
21:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i would assume there's little optimisation potential there, given that you're working with mostly planar graphs
21:54:33 <frosch123> you mean "little left"?
21:54:53 <frosch123> because triangle fans/stips safe 2/3 of data compared to single triangles
21:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i'm just not completely understanding the context
21:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, submitting individual triangles basically triples the data...
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22:01:50 <michi_cc> The big bottleneck of today's GPUs (and driver architectures) is submitting commands to the GPU. Whether you need one or three vertices per triangle doesn't matter much when one options means you can draw them in a single batch.
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22:17:41 <Wolf01> mmmh, night all
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22:40:17 * andythenorth needs a random start / stop animation
22:40:32 <andythenorth> or I cheat, and just fill out a lot of spacer frames :P
22:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the difficulty?
22:43:16 <Eddi|zuHause> default industries randomly start and stop their animations, right?
22:45:50 <andythenorth> yeah
22:46:09 <andythenorth> I tried implementing it a few weeks ago, but failed
22:52:24 <andythenorth> seems to need switching spritelayouts
22:52:32 <andythenorth> rather than relying on the animation
22:53:09 <andythenorth> can’t be sensible
22:55:42 <andythenorth> must be a better way :P
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