IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-05-02
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02:41:02 <drac_boy> any of you know what they call these smaller steam locomotive that had vertical boilers instead? the name seem to not come to me :-s
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03:03:13 <kamnet> De Winton, Mamod and Sentinel were three prominent manufacturers of such vertical boiler locomotives. When used as tractors they were sometimes known as steam donkeys. The two main types were Fire Tube boilers and Water Tube boilers.
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05:37:37 <Supercheese> exhausted from spending the whole day giving a technical presentation and manning a booth at our annual engineering expo at the university
05:38:37 <Supercheese> but hey, I graduate in a couple of weeks, so maybe by this time next year I can be doing the same thing but getting paid
05:38:48 <kamnet> Oh boy. That sounds exciting and exhausting. I know exhasting. I've been up all day with very little sleep the night before. gotta go work all day tomorrow too
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07:07:27 <kamnet> Good morning Eddi|zuHause
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08:38:02 <newbie|2> ;C:\NML;C:\TortoiseHg;C:\Python34;C:\MinGW\bin;C:\MinGW\msys\1.0\bin
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09:16:38 <Alberth> newbie|2: trouble with nml?
09:17:13 <Alberth> nml is known not to work with python 3.4.0 and 3.4.1
09:17:30 <Alberth> any other python 3 works, for some weird reason
09:17:51 <newbie|2> compile the make-nmlerror
09:17:53 <Alberth> try "python --version" at the command line to check the version
09:18:42 <newbie|2> gfxterrain.scm: No such file or directory
09:18:58 <newbie|2> [GIMP] gfx\terrain.png
09:18:58 <newbie|2> /bin/bash: gfxterrain.scm: No such file or directory
09:19:56 <Alberth> what are you compiling?
09:20:45 <newbie|2> oh,,,sorry my is python 3.4.1
09:21:17 <newbie|2> compile make-nml ,,,
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09:24:10 <newbie|2> I will try python 3.2
09:25:06 <Alberth> _V= make <-- use a _V= prefix to disable the nice lines, and get the raw commands that are executed
09:25:28 <Alberth> at least that makes finding the problem simpler
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09:26:51 <Alberth> your 'gimp' problems seems to do "gimp" -n -i -b - < gfx/terrain.scm >/dev/null
09:27:08 <Alberth> which is a file that exists at my system
09:28:27 <newbie|2> right,,,my gimp is 2.8.14
09:28:35 <Alberth> not sure that's the cause, "no such file" is a shell report, not something reported by gimp itself
09:29:13 <Alberth> the "<" means that the shell redirects the file data into gimp, gimp itself never accesses the file
09:30:58 <Alberth> ls gfx <-- gives me png_source_list terrain.png terrain.scm test.xcf
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09:44:44 <Alberth> congrats andy on completing the conversion
09:48:34 <andythenorth> I cheated a lot :)
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09:51:48 <frosch123> Alberth: the trouble with python 3.4.0 and 3.4.1 is only the compilation of the acceleration module
09:52:17 <frosch123> python enforces a weird CFLAGS combination that disables some C99 funtions
09:56:23 * andythenorth wonders what to do next
09:56:31 <andythenorth> refactor the 25 industries where I cheated?
09:57:16 <frosch123> hmm, roadrunner ai is the main culprit for a lot of 1.5 bug reports :p
09:57:40 <frosch123> the ai didn't change in two years, the bug in ottd is present for 5 years
09:57:52 <frosch123> somehow it got more sensitive to it though :/
09:58:43 <Johnnei> Maybe it needs some polishing after 2 years of gathering dust :p
10:10:31 <andythenorth> so FIRS industries use a lot of cbs
10:10:39 <andythenorth> and some of those cbs have multiple switches
10:11:08 <andythenorth> and in some cases, those switches are ~identical for every industry, except for one or two numeric values
10:11:30 <andythenorth> so unifying them is appealing
10:11:41 <andythenorth> am I missing anything that is going to spank my plan?
10:11:56 <Alberth> eat breakfast while cooking up a cunning firs plan
10:12:04 <andythenorth> breakfast is cooking
10:13:05 <Alberth> use parameters for those values, trying a small scale experiment, imho
10:14:22 <Alberth> don't know what nml does in these cases, does it optimize equal switches away? would be nifty if it did
10:16:16 <frosch123> if you reference the same switch name in nml, so will the resulting grf
10:17:00 <frosch123> nml doesn't add optimisation, nor does it remove any, it just translates switches 1:1
10:18:55 <andythenorth> my feeling is that consolidating might drop anything from 60 - 300 switches per cb
10:19:17 <andythenorth> it will be interesting to do one and see if it changes compile time in any interesting way
10:20:28 <andythenorth> I suspect that FIRS eats most time in the _insane_ spritelayouts
10:20:34 <andythenorth> which can’t be consolidated
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11:11:38 * andythenorth kills 87 switches
11:11:55 <andythenorth> saves about 2s on first compile
11:12:06 <andythenorth> saves about 6s on second compile with primed cache
11:12:19 <andythenorth> very low statistical validity for those results :P
11:13:29 <andythenorth> we need a farm of about 100 build nodes
11:13:36 <andythenorth> which time the builds for every commit
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11:35:12 <V453000> andythenorth: how many loading stages look nicest on road vehicles?
11:40:04 <andythenorth> 3 is a bit overkill
11:41:58 <frosch123> does your 2 mean 3?
11:42:02 <frosch123> empty, somewhat, full?
11:43:40 <andythenorth> although to make it nice, I would probably do 0, [20-80], 100
11:43:59 <andythenorth> define 5 loading states, but only 3 sprites
11:44:32 <andythenorth> semantically, I think the sprites say ‘loading’ rather than ‘amount loaded'
11:45:11 <andythenorth> every time I make a ‘global’ set of switches, the total pool of available action 2 IDs is reduced?
11:45:20 <andythenorth> might be an unwanted side effect :(
11:51:42 <V453000> I just thought of that
11:55:42 <andythenorth> road hog has no loading states yet, so eh, dunno what that will do
11:55:51 <andythenorth> but probably 3 over 5
11:57:48 <V453000> hm, whenever vehicle is articulated, it cant go to the terminus RV stations, right?
11:59:10 <andythenorth> got a plan for that?
12:00:03 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27263 trunk/Makefile.grf.in (2015-05-02 11:59:55 +0200 )
12:00:04 <DorpsGek> -Doc: nforenum is part of grfcodec for some years.
12:00:20 <V453000> well no, just considering options
12:00:27 <V453000> e.g. I want trucks to have randomized colour of cabins
12:00:44 <V453000> and some random cargo "subtypes" like pigs, cows, ...
12:01:13 <V453000> just wondering if I can reasonably do that without articulation or if my RVs will be hating terminus stations :P
12:01:31 <andythenorth> you can do that without articulation
12:01:44 <andythenorth> just a lot of sprites
12:03:24 <andythenorth> all cargo variation on one spritesheet
12:03:34 <andythenorth> then copy of spritesheet for each color variation
12:03:45 <andythenorth> suits the way I recolour
12:03:49 <andythenorth> you might do it differently :D
12:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> [02.05.2015 07:07] <kamnet> Good morning Eddi|zuHause <-- you do realize that i scripted my daily reconnect to a time where i'm very probably not awake.
12:11:13 <V453000> I render stuff and do not want to use company colours anymore
12:11:23 <V453000> the recolouring is just broken, cant get it look nice
12:11:44 <V453000> frosch123 said something about redoing the algorithm but lets see how soon can that be done :P
12:14:08 <andythenorth> so what colour cabs would you do?
12:14:21 <V453000> various colour schemes etc
12:15:17 <V453000> I dont think the player needs CC if they have random colours
12:15:46 <V453000> of course, playing in various companies with various coloured vehicles is nice
12:16:13 <andythenorth> _slightly_ surprised you can’t make it work, but not 100%
12:16:22 <andythenorth> some CC variations just suck, even with pixels
12:16:26 <V453000> I like CC too, but it is just absolutely out of the question for 32bpp
12:16:47 <andythenorth> parameter for your own colour schemes?
12:16:49 <V453000> I made a rather elaborate method of 32bpp->CC conversion, using ALL of the possible shades
12:16:53 <V453000> but it just doesnt cut it
12:17:12 <V453000> nah I can make various vehicles, only differing by colour
12:17:21 <V453000> I want to have only like 3 vehicles anyway
12:17:32 <V453000> so a parameter for "random" or "be able to pick your colour" fits in
12:18:04 <V453000> if I make 8 colours, it is just 32 vehicles in the vehicle list with 1 short truck, 1 long truck, 1 short bus, 1 long bus
12:18:26 <V453000> the vehicles can just change power/speed over the years whenever they visit stations I guess
12:18:33 <V453000> autoreplace with RVs is dumb anyway
12:18:40 <andythenorth> interesting approach :P
12:18:47 <andythenorth> organic vehicles
12:18:50 <andythenorth> that grow bigger
12:19:29 <V453000> and change sprites in time eras
12:19:39 <V453000> also solves all the bullshit with randomized introduction dates
12:20:46 <V453000> the problem is that 64 cargoes * 3 loading stages * 8 angles * 4 sub-cargoes * 8 vehicle colours is slightly shitload
12:21:28 <V453000> I currently have 55 cargoes but yeah
12:22:47 <V453000> I guess I could make less randomness since RVs dont have millions of wagons like trains
12:22:51 <V453000> so that is one way to help it
12:23:19 <V453000> also, short RVs do not need sub-cargoes, perhaps
12:23:45 <V453000> busses do not need most of the stuff
12:24:08 <V453000> well busses are like 1 of the cargoes without loading stages and sub-cargoes
12:28:40 <andythenorth> buses need Yetis
12:28:47 <andythenorth> with different hats
12:34:00 <andythenorth> is OpenTTD’s max date 5000000 or 5000001?
12:34:08 <andythenorth> found both in use in newgrf code
12:34:25 <V453000> I am not going to ask how is that useful? :D
12:34:53 <andythenorth> also date sensitive graphics
12:36:51 <andythenorth> 5000001 causes nmlc to sulk
12:36:54 <andythenorth> so that answers that
12:40:01 <Alberth> afaik at the end of 5000000, you go back to jan 1st of that year
12:41:22 <Alberth> can't you eliminate the check in that case
12:43:13 <andythenorth> it’s just a proxy for ‘no date is set'
12:43:20 <andythenorth> where ‘None’ has some problems :P
12:43:52 <andythenorth> 5000001 looks to be used with < operator
12:44:08 <andythenorth> so that explains that mystery :)
12:46:25 <andythenorth> can haz more permanent storages?
12:51:02 <andythenorth> more permanent storage = more industries sharing cb chains
13:09:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try 31.12.5000000 as max date?
13:09:54 <andythenorth> I only need year but yes, thanks :)
13:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, it's probably nmlc being overly pedantinc
13:10:25 <andythenorth> as it stands, some people won’t get to build industries after 4999999
13:10:32 <andythenorth> and it’s not a new bug
13:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the internal variables have a bit of room for >5000000 dates, it's just he last "round" number to fit in the range
13:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so there should be no problems with a grf checking for 5000001
13:13:45 <Alberth> but any comparison that you do with any number > 5000000 is useless
13:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, yes, that's kinda the point. pick a number that doesn't do anything, without making it complicated by adding new control structures and stuff
13:17:27 * andythenorth wonders how many storages FIRS industries have free
13:17:50 <andythenorth> nml could probably audit that
13:18:16 <Alberth> in my view, you need 2 variations for introduction date, and two variations for end-date
13:19:22 <andythenorth> hmm secondary industries only have one storage free :(
13:19:29 <andythenorth> and I need that for a UID
13:22:46 * andythenorth wonders about converting FIRS to m4nfo
13:22:54 <andythenorth> or rather, pythonm4nfo
13:30:17 <andythenorth> maybe I can make partial compiling work for FIRS
13:30:19 <andythenorth> that would be interesting
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13:35:58 <andythenorth> oh, that won’t work :(
13:36:02 <andythenorth> nmlc randomises strings
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15:40:45 <kamnet> Eddi|zuHause: No I didn't realize that. I'm up weird hours anyhow, but I figured you were either busy or sleeping to begin with. :D
16:16:15 <kamnet> Apparently I missed all the discussion this morning.
16:16:27 <kamnet> I'll probably miss more of it this afternoon when I go into work.
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16:35:45 <Flygon> I'm doing an atrocious job of it
16:37:34 <Flygon> Please tell me if this makes proper sense or not x.x
16:39:38 <frosch123> they all drive on the wrong side
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16:42:19 <Flygon> frosch: I wanted to draw it using European/American standards
16:42:23 <Flygon> I didn't want to get confused
16:42:31 <Flygon> So I did it using Australian standards
16:42:40 <Flygon> Except cloverleafs don't exist in my state
16:43:07 <Alberth> no clovercleafs then :)
16:43:24 <Johnnei> Just a plain old intersection at 120kmh :p
16:43:52 <andythenorth> can’t you just play Euro Truck Simulator to show it?
16:45:03 <Flygon> andythenorth: My Internet is crap and I don't have it installed on Steam
16:46:39 <Flygon> And is still confusing to explain to someone that, amongst other things
16:46:44 <Flygon> Doesn't have a drivers licence
16:47:02 <frosch123> no french man ever had one
16:47:29 <Flygon> I lack any good French jokes and I got a whopper of a headache
16:48:24 <andythenorth> slow forums are slow
16:48:36 <andythenorth> as in, “not much to read today”
16:51:09 <Wolf01> we started to build roundabouts under the bridge instead of using cloverleaves
16:52:38 <Flygon> Doesn't work if they're both freeways
16:54:23 <andythenorth> refactoring is starting to drag :P
16:54:39 * andythenorth has been cleaning house for days on FIRS code
16:56:34 <Alberth> already made a plan for decorating the new house?
16:56:56 <andythenorth> hoping I might get some help :)
16:57:04 <andythenorth> I want to change how clustering works
16:57:17 <andythenorth> it’s failing for some map sizes and/or some economies
17:08:30 <Alberth> hmm, entire screenshot forum seems filled with pictures of small rural villages :)
17:08:53 <Alberth> with a central station thrown in here and there
17:11:43 <Alberth> something like that :)
17:13:04 <andythenorth> is DB set and stations mandatory?
17:13:18 <andythenorth> all screenshots seem to feature those grfs
17:13:50 <Alberth> if you're from Germany, definitely
17:13:51 <frosch123> maybe they are from 2005
17:14:08 <frosch123> anyway, i literally do not know the people in the off-topic section
17:14:36 <frosch123> it's like a on a different planet
17:21:34 <andythenorth> is it as odd as #tycoon?
17:23:51 <frosch123> likely, not sure whether it is the same
17:24:40 <frosch123> i recall someone getting offended when i said that #tycoon is the channel of the forum off-topic gang :)
17:26:51 * andythenorth is very bored of refactoring FIRS
17:27:34 <frosch123> would need someone to make a savegame, and someone to run a server :p
17:27:43 <andythenorth> are you volunteering? o_O
17:28:38 <frosch123> i wanted to play with yeti, but still haven't managed to play even a few minutes with it :p
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17:28:56 <andythenorth> MP needs a GS imo
17:30:01 * andythenorth wonders how Busy Bee works in MP
17:30:54 <frosch123> i don't think it works well
17:31:45 <frosch123> sounds like it would need a lot of coordination
17:31:55 <frosch123> trying to connect the same things in parallel doesn't work well
17:33:10 <frosch123> could work with skype, but i don't have that :p
17:33:24 <frosch123> or teamspeak, does that still exist?
17:34:08 <frosch123> but well, usually my audio channel is occupied by metal
17:34:15 <frosch123> no space for talking :p
17:34:23 <andythenorth> also there’s no big goal
17:34:31 <andythenorth> I’ve played a few ‘no goal’ games in MP
17:34:38 <andythenorth> but mostly I get bored and build silly things
17:35:29 <frosch123> well, if you don't share a goal, it's hardly playing cooperative :p
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17:42:53 <andythenorth> I need to make some kind of ‘conquer the west’ GS
17:42:58 <andythenorth> but I have enough to do :)
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18:31:07 <Alberth> build a common connected world but each in his own company?
18:31:34 <andythenorth> networked goals?
18:31:42 <andythenorth> one company delivers, another collects? o_O
18:36:04 <Alberth> as long as everybody has a few lines to get money from, it should work
18:38:17 <andythenorth> we could track a delivery goal, and use it to trigger a collection goal
18:38:54 <andythenorth> delivery team tries to overwhelm collection team
18:39:02 <andythenorth> collection team tries to stay ahead :)
18:39:25 <andythenorth> or split, both teams deliver and collect, but for different cargos or industries
18:40:56 <Alberth> different parts of the map
18:41:25 * andythenorth wonders why sawmills cluster near forests
18:41:37 <andythenorth> found a few odd location checks in FIRS code as I refactor ;P
18:41:57 <Alberth> or you are allowed to deliver or accept cargo at some industry, but not both
18:42:14 <andythenorth> does competitive MP work?
18:43:08 <andythenorth> anyway, it’s an idea :)
18:47:08 <kamnet> Infrastructure Sharing patch makes much of this quite easy. :D
18:47:11 <Alberth> depends on how friendly 'competitive' is
18:48:18 <Alberth> kamnet: we don't really need separate companies, it's a sort of by-product of fixing a game script problem
18:51:07 <Alberth> having several companies fixes the problem of discussion who does what
18:57:56 * andythenorth has eaten more greens
18:58:00 <andythenorth> more is refactored
19:08:12 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 20 hours, 40 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <DanMacK> And if you start a new game, save it and reload it, does it freeze too?
19:17:12 <kamnet> In playing some of my games, I use IS for companies to take on certain roles - one company manages only rail infrastructure, one only builds roads. One company handles all mail, one handles all rail passengers, one handles all freight transport, etc.
19:18:09 <frosch123> that's also what the old subsidiaries patch did
19:18:18 <frosch123> but you could just as well implement liveries for groups
19:20:17 <kamnet> I did it that wa to take advantage of AIs For example a road building AI to do just roads, there's an Ai that only delivers mail, one that only does passengers via airplanes, etc.
19:21:33 <andythenorth> can’t they play in the same company?
19:21:44 * andythenorth has never played IS, but also never understood the point
19:22:11 <kamnet> No, you can only run one AI per company
19:23:39 <kamnet> I like companies being semi-autonomous, I can start building a rail line on one part of a map, and after a few years I'm bored with it ready to do something else, I've got infrastructure already set up on the rest of the map to immediately jump into
19:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i played a 4 company single player game once
19:24:45 <kamnet> And I don't really like dealing with mail or passengers, its too tedious, it's mostly just growth and more growth and more growth. If an AI can manage that transport for me, I'm fine. :D
19:24:56 <Eddi|zuHause> each company serving one region, with interconnection points
19:25:06 <Alberth> kamnet: just ignore pax :)
19:25:46 <kamnet> You can't if you're using a citybuilder script :D
19:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few shortcomings in the implementation, but i think the overall concept of IS is desireable
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19:31:52 <kamnet> Yep, a few, but overall I've found it to be a really useful patch
19:32:15 <Alberth> why are you running a city builder then?
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19:33:50 * andythenorth just invented an evil
19:33:53 <andythenorth> to solve a FIRS problem
19:34:25 <Alberth> you made a pact with the devil?
19:35:08 <andythenorth> I have a problem because FIRS has 66 industries, when the limit is 64 :P
19:35:26 <andythenorth> this causes…problems…with cb handling in action 3 blocks
19:35:56 <Alberth> sounds likely to be a problem indeed :)
19:36:52 <andythenorth> so give each industry a UID in persistent storage, route all industry cbs through a switch which reads the UID, and dispatches to the correct following switch for that industry
19:37:07 <andythenorth> what could be simpler? :P
19:37:20 <andythenorth> I even have one persistent storage left free
19:41:53 <Alberth> hmm, giving it a fixed number, and then skipping initialization in some economy couldn't work?
19:42:37 <Alberth> although it doesn't re-use switches, as each industry is separate then, I guess
19:43:07 <andythenorth> there was some problem that keeps tripping me up with action 3, can’t remember what
19:43:15 <frosch123> you could also just read the industry type from the existing variable
19:43:25 <frosch123> no need to store it yourself
19:43:55 <andythenorth> I’m already overlapping them
19:44:34 <andythenorth> action 2 can’t be action 7ed
19:45:07 <andythenorth> but action 3 can
19:45:17 <andythenorth> there was some problem when I tried it last time though
19:45:17 <frosch123> as if there was need to :p
19:45:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27264 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2015-05-02 19:45:18 +0200 )
19:45:27 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:45:28 <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
19:46:17 * andythenorth wonders what the problem(s) were
19:47:20 <frosch123> there is no need to skip action2, you can chain to another action2 anyway
19:47:47 <andythenorth> maybe I am conflating multiple problems
19:48:05 * andythenorth reads the commits that fixed the bugs before
19:51:29 <andythenorth> hmm, maybe action 7 on the action 3 fixes that actual issue I ran into
19:51:35 <andythenorth> which is mostly done now
19:51:51 <andythenorth> the action 2 stuff might be a distraction
19:57:04 <andythenorth> any reason the industry type (id) can’t change between economies (action 7-ed)?
19:57:28 <andythenorth> then I can allocate ids dynamically
19:57:34 <andythenorth> (at compile time)
19:58:30 <andythenorth> eh? NML spec says “Industry IDs are local to the NewGRF, you are free to choose any ID in the 0..255-range”
20:03:32 <frosch123> ah, wait, i see what you read there
20:03:36 <andythenorth> I am misunderstanding the spec?
20:03:36 <frosch123> but no, that is wrong :)
20:03:49 <frosch123> static const IndustryType NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES_PER_GRF = 64; ///< maximum number of industry types per NewGRF
20:04:06 <frosch123> there are 256 tiles, 64 industries
20:06:21 <frosch123> it's 256 for stations, houses, industry tiles, objects and airport tiles :)
20:06:41 <frosch123> 64 for industry, 32 for cargo, 128 for airprots, 16 for railtypes
20:07:11 <frosch123> btw, nml prints that to the console :p
20:08:14 <andythenorth> it has no way to account for people like me
20:08:57 <kamnet> Does this mean Andy needs a FIRS Add-On NewGRF? :D
20:09:22 <frosch123> don't make it even more complicated :p
20:09:53 <frosch123> anyway, the ottd limit is no particulary hard limit to raise :s
20:10:07 <frosch123> could as well increase it to 256
20:10:19 <andythenorth> frosch123: or I could engineer an insane compile for FIRS?
20:10:25 <andythenorth> that shuffles IDs around per economy
20:10:30 <andythenorth> which is better?
20:14:05 <andythenorth> is there any gameplay benefit to pinning max industries to 64?
20:14:21 <frosch123> a useable minimap :p
20:14:23 <kamnet> Limits bug reports to devs?
20:14:40 <frosch123> i still don't get how anyone can play with 16 railtypes
20:14:59 <andythenorth> FIRS has been developed since 2008, and the biggest economy is 51 industries
20:15:16 <andythenorth> really, it would be hard to add more
20:15:27 <andythenorth> the cargo limit (which should stay at 32) limits the number of industries
20:15:44 <frosch123> cargo limit is quite hard to increase :)
20:15:55 <andythenorth> so 256 industries? o_O
20:16:00 <frosch123> industry tile limit is also hard to increase
20:16:08 <andythenorth> that’s workable with cbs anyway
20:16:10 <frosch123> though we support 512 in total
20:16:28 <kamnet> Its easier when one railtype is pipes, another railtype is electric lines, two of the railtypes are "planning" and "useless" tracks... ;)
20:16:30 <andythenorth> 256 industries, 256 tiles, one per industry :D
20:17:23 <frosch123> you can also use 1 tile for all industries
20:17:31 <frosch123> the tileid only matters if you use animation and such
20:17:46 <frosch123> yeah, acceptance is also easier with tiles
20:17:58 <frosch123> well, generally, layouts are easier with tiles :)
20:18:43 <andythenorth> hmm CB 2B and 2C would handle acceptance
20:18:45 <andythenorth> universal tile :P
20:19:07 <frosch123> using callbacks affects performance
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20:45:25 <andythenorth> so how trivial is it to do 256?
20:45:43 <frosch123> mainly savegame conversion
20:45:50 * andythenorth tests nml for checks
20:45:51 <frosch123> otherwise just two constants
20:46:32 <andythenorth> nmlc has a check, but that’s easy to patch
20:46:41 <frosch123> that's also just a constant :)
20:46:45 <andythenorth> I assume renum will be similar
20:46:54 <frosch123> noone cares about renum
20:48:26 <frosch123> ah, there are some special values for industries
20:48:43 <frosch123> so likely we would only raise it to 250, or maybe 128 just for the nice number
20:49:07 <frosch123> for similar reason there are also only 128 airports :)
20:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <kamnet> MOAR POWER <-- wasn't that show like 15 years ago?
20:50:52 <frosch123> actually, the special values are in no conflict
20:51:07 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so you have a patch by tomorrow?
20:52:42 * andythenorth could patch nmlc :P
20:53:18 <andythenorth> dfghjkfghjkl xw345tgfyuiop[‘? nbgt123467890saq2345thbcdr678ol., esdfrhyjuiklop;[']\
20:53:27 <frosch123> value 0xFF will be special for purchase list and stuff
20:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause> your rot13 is broken
20:53:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: cleaning your keyboard? or dropping the whole thing? :p
20:58:26 <andythenorth> I suspect a child
20:58:32 <andythenorth> or my keyboard controller has water in it
20:59:01 <frosch123> the characters describe a one or two finger swipe over the keyboard :)
20:59:30 <andythenorth> could that pattern be made by dropping a pair of glasses on the keyboard? o_O
20:59:47 <andythenorth> that just results in needing new glasses
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21:00:14 * andythenorth only needed glasses this year
21:00:19 <andythenorth> blame the pixels
21:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably learn how to kid-proof your computer (e.g. locking your sessions with a password)
21:06:36 <frosch123> pff, the kids will remember the password better than him
21:06:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i was about to say that. assume your kids are better at passwords than you are :p
21:07:27 <andythenorth> screen usually locks
21:07:37 <andythenorth> very short lockout time for infosec reasons
21:07:45 <andythenorth> also I usually lock it when I walk away
21:07:55 <andythenorth> then have to type a very long password to unlock :(
21:07:59 <andythenorth> which I usually get wrong
21:11:05 <kamnet> Thankfully I do nothing which requires national security to lock my keyboard.
21:22:24 <kamnet> Eddi|zuHause: It was on the air when I was still a kid. early 90s? Now I gota look
21:22:46 <Eddi|zuHause> kamnet: i think it was more late 90s/early 2000s
21:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> kamnet: early 90s was roseanne and bundys
21:23:16 <kamnet> Wikipedia: Home Improvement is an American television sitcom starring Tim Allen, that aired from September 17, 1991 to May 25, 1999.
21:24:25 <kamnet> Roseanne is an American sitcom that was broadcast on ABC from October 18, 1988, to May 20, 1997.
21:25:22 <kamnet> Married... with Children is an American sitcom that aired on FOXfrom April 5, 1987, to June 9, 1997
21:25:36 <kamnet> So all around the same time period.
21:43:47 <frosch123> i thought you were like 10 years older than me :p
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21:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> kamnet: ok, maybe series just come 5 years later here :p
22:06:02 <kamnet> I was born in 1976. I've always assumed I'm older than most people here.
22:07:43 <frosch123> ok, so i was not that wrong
22:08:02 <frosch123> but then you were no kid in the late 90s :p
22:10:03 <andythenorth> 2 years apart from andythenorth
22:10:08 <andythenorth> but I’m not saying which way
22:36:58 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
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22:38:59 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 28 minutes and 50 seconds ago: <andythenorth> but I’m not saying which way
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22:39:26 <frosch123> making a little dance? :p
22:40:11 *** Celestar1 has joined #openttd
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22:41:38 <DanMacK> Connection issues Andy?
22:43:02 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
22:44:32 <frosch123> or it's the todler again :)
22:49:48 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
22:52:07 <kamnet> frosch123: No I wasn't a kid in the late 90s. but I was in the early 90s. :D
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23:48:57 <Supercheese> has anyone here actually used m4nfo? I've been debating trying it out for quite some time for stations and would solicit opinions should there be any
23:49:16 <frosch123> haha, that's the main issue with it :p
23:49:26 <frosch123> noone is using it, except a few people behind closed doors
23:49:38 <Supercheese> well, it allegedly does support stations which NML does not
23:49:49 <frosch123> you can literally ask noone, and look at no examples, except the original documentation
23:49:55 <Supercheese> and if the code is actually human-readable unlike raw NFO that would be nice
23:50:55 <frosch123> well, noone knows that :)
23:51:46 <Supercheese> I feel like the cyclops... Nobody is using it
23:52:31 <frosch123> anyway, grf are a complicated thing
23:52:44 <frosch123> stations are complicated in particular
23:53:06 <frosch123> the isr author is likely the only one who really know it
23:53:08 <Supercheese> Indeed, they seem more challenging
23:53:44 <frosch123> about m4nfo, i very much doubt it does help you whatsoever with a isr-level of grf
23:54:05 <frosch123> it's developed by an artist, not by a programmer
23:54:32 <frosch123> so, i would be surprised if it supports anything like advanced spritelayouts
23:56:14 <Supercheese> well I'd try just adding some single-tile non-track station bits first
23:56:49 <frosch123> well, the trend is to do those with objects :p
23:57:00 <frosch123> objects work everywhere, for all station types
23:57:05 <Supercheese> I already can do that, but I would like them to actually contribute to catchment
23:57:11 <Supercheese> eyecandy but also functional
23:57:17 <frosch123> the only thing that they do not support is showing cargo matching the cargo waiting at the station
23:57:26 <frosch123> but that in itself is one of the most controverse thing
23:58:07 <frosch123> i thought not being limited by the catchment area was a feature :)
23:59:43 <Supercheese> I am very fond of building a large passenger train station nearby but past the outskirts of a city and ctrl+joining several eyecandy station tiles to it spread throughout the city
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