IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2015-03-05
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00:01:02 <Samu> return IsWater(t) && GetWaterClass(t) == WATER_CLASS_CANAL && HasBit(_m[t].m1, 4) ? 1 : 0;
00:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> "IsWater(t) && GetWaterClass(t) == WATER_CLASS_CANAL" <-- that should be an assert
00:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you should only call this function, if those are true anyway
00:02:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and "?1:0" is pointless
00:03:37 <glx> indeed the first part is IsCanal()
00:03:44 <glx> why reinvent the wheel ???
00:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: maybe the other people didn't do the wheel the right way?
00:04:46 <Samu> return HasBit(_m[t].m1, 4) ? 1 : 0;
00:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause> pointless parts are pointless
00:05:13 <glx> assert(IsCanal(t)); return HasBit()
00:06:26 <Samu> return HasBit(_m[t].m1, 4);
00:09:05 <Samu> IsRiverUnderCanal or IsCanalOnRiver
00:09:22 <Rusty> I have downloaded the 5.0 version and now can't play multiplayer on line as there are only two green dots ? Anything I can do to get the old one back ?
00:10:19 <Rusty> It said beta 5.0 testing
00:10:29 <chillcore> you can have as many versions as you want side by side
00:10:43 <Samu> which bit tells the bool thing true?
00:11:11 <Samu> nice, then this name fits
00:11:32 <chillcore> openttd.org ... download zip and unpack rusty, stable version or n oghtly or both
00:11:51 <glx> client version must match server version
00:11:57 <Rusty> Sorry that's what I mean 1.5 . Well I've tried downloading 1.4.4 but it says you have a newer version and closes
00:12:03 <glx> and beta servers are rare
00:12:20 <glx> you can't use installer in this case
00:12:50 <glx> but you can unzip any older version somewhere else
00:13:01 <Rusty> I wished I hadn't downloaded it . But since then I can take part in one of two servers both have someone on it all day every day and are on hundreds if years old
00:13:21 <Rusty> Where do I go to unzip one ?
00:13:35 <glx> the other option is uninstall the beta and reinstall the older version
00:13:52 <Rusty> I thought about that one . Think I'll try that
00:14:02 <Rusty> Wanted to check it wasn't something simple
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00:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your definition of "simple"
00:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd call unzipping "simple"
00:18:31 <cypher_> Oh god, it finally compiled.
00:18:45 <chillcore> how did you solve it?
00:19:16 <chillcore> maybe you could adjust the wiki if needed ... while you remember?
00:20:29 <cypher_> Well, Msys installed its own zlib - 1.2.7-something and I installed 1.2.8 from the manual. And it did use the older version and hence the error.
00:21:30 <chillcore> what does "./configure" say it is using?
00:23:53 <chillcore> 1.2.8 ... I should learn to read properly :P
00:36:01 <Samu> emperorjake savegame is horrid
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00:36:13 <Samu> i don't know how that save is getting praise
00:38:06 <Eddi|zuHause> newsflash: people have different taste!
00:38:36 <Samu> those roads make me dizzy
00:38:51 <Samu> chosing white for vehicles that go up on snow
00:39:19 <Samu> small airport with green tiles, built on snow, doesn't combine
00:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. i also noticed that. temperate grass colour in arctic is weird
00:40:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but that can only be fixed in NewGRF
00:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> which cannot be used on title screen
00:41:32 <Samu> trucks don't die there on the level crossing
00:41:42 <Samu> nicely placed signals for the trains
00:42:04 <Samu> nice to watch trains going along with that road
00:43:01 <Samu> fleashosio is just... tooo burdening
00:43:35 <Samu> only bad thing is that coal mine for level crossing
00:43:45 <Samu> autosloped coal mine, bah
00:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so, what's your problem? you like one, and dislike the two others? seems like an easy solution.
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01:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't they great?
01:19:49 <Samu> bool canal = IsCanalOnRiver(tile);
01:21:02 <glx> I guess it's the IsCanal() one
01:21:04 <Eddi|zuHause> because you didn't check for IsCanal
01:23:35 <glx> and I'm sure checking for IsCanal() will trigger the IsTileType(t, MP_WATER) one in this case
01:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: an assert is not a check. an assert is there as a reminder that you should check this before
01:25:33 <glx> like being sure to check you are on a water tile with canal before calling the accessor
01:25:52 <glx> as the accessor is only valid for these tiles
01:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that was too much for him :p
01:38:12 <supermop> i dont really know anything about modern gaame engines
01:38:15 <Samu> ah i understand the assert now
01:38:35 <Samu> the tile is currently not water
01:39:24 <supermop> the guy i do freelance work for wants to make occulus rift walkthroughs of houses, but this most architectural rendering is not done in real time
01:39:32 <supermop> so i have to read up on this
01:40:16 <supermop> reminds me of back in 2005 when i would make counter strike source levels of my studio projects to explore interior spaces and lighting
01:40:26 <Samu> not yet a water tile that will become a water tile afterwards
01:40:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like make rendering out of design blueprints?
01:41:42 <supermop> yeah - if we make a presentation rendering
01:42:09 <supermop> its typically of a specific view, and rendered to as high of quality as time allows and project demands
01:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> realtime rendering should be no problem if you reduce texture quality/number of polygons
01:42:27 <supermop> so often done on render farms when the office is asleep
01:42:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but i have no clue about that topic :p
01:42:59 <supermop> its a very different way of thinking about architectural presentation, but i am intrigued
01:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i once went to a computergraphics lecture, but the lecturer was sooooo booooring
01:44:00 <supermop> as i think as clients get younger (not younger but of younger generations) an interactive presentation would be more valuable than a static presentation of higher quality
01:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i see how that would be fun for a few minutes
01:44:29 <supermop> people younger than me are more used to interacting with a space rather than just wanting to look at a pretty picture
01:44:55 <supermop> i think it makes more sense as a design tool though
01:45:41 <supermop> i mean i can do a decent job of visualizing what it would be like to be in an imaginary space, but there are always details you'll forget about etc
01:45:58 <supermop> you could better catch stupid design features earlier
01:47:03 <supermop> or figure things out like "there is awful glare in this room in the afternoon" or "this thing looks ugly for this side"
01:47:52 <supermop> whereas if you are drawing presentation drawings by hand or making fancy renderings, you may subconsciously avoid showing those views that look bad
01:47:54 *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
01:48:20 <Flygon> You'd be amazed how many artists do that
01:48:28 <Flygon> Then I work with them on colourization
01:48:38 <Flygon> Then I realize they've borked something up majorly
01:48:46 <Flygon> So it becomes impossible to represent when shaded
01:49:08 <supermop> with something interactive, a colleague or client could walk to a weird place and say "this area doesn't really look well thought out"
01:49:49 <Samu> const Company *c = Company::Get(this->face);
01:50:04 <Flygon> People get commissioned to draw things
01:50:18 <Flygon> Then the commissioner wants to save $$$
01:50:29 <Flygon> So they get someone else either bored or with spare time to colourize it
01:50:45 <Flygon> But, this sort of thing happens. I didn't draw the base artwork. :U
01:51:39 <Samu> this looked so simple, it's becoming a nightmare
01:51:48 <Flygon> Just like colourizationing
01:54:07 <Samu> why is it getting a face for some manager while throwing an error that I can't demolish a canal tile which I was supposed to be able to demolish...
01:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> because the error message contains the manager face
01:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> of the company that owns the area
01:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and the name of the company
01:55:34 <Samu> first, it is wrong to give me the error, that's not what's supposed to do
01:55:50 <Samu> i just plain suck at this
01:57:36 <Eddi|zuHause> just always ask yourself: 1) what exactly is it doing? 2) why is it doing what it does? 3) what do i want it to do? 4) how do i take a step into that direction?
01:59:08 <Samu> 1. it is giving me an error message when i am removing a canal tile placed on scenario editor
01:59:24 <Samu> removing, in this case, demolishing it
02:00:26 <Samu> 2. it's doing that because... owner is still wrong
02:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it wrote an owner that you didn't expect it to write?
02:01:15 <Eddi|zuHause> then maybe the check for which owner it is is wrong?
02:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that obviously means you read more bits that you should read
02:05:58 <Samu> <Unable to read memory> Company *
02:06:38 <Samu> - data 0x00000000 {???} Company * *
02:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that is only the place where it blows up. not where you lighted the fuse.
02:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a case where GetTileOwner reads more bits than SetTileOwner wrote
02:12:12 <Samu> i'm posting my current code, it's horrible i bet
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03:43:35 <supermop> its really hard to get the color of tram tracks
03:44:08 <supermop> everything to grey to brown to purplish
03:44:53 <supermop> complex because the lighting on them varies so much, rarely are you seeing the obliquely under direct sun
03:45:41 <supermop> if you are in a built up city area in late afternoon, the angle and color of incident light changes dramatically from street to street
03:46:38 <supermop> so hard for me to tell, should it be dull grey shiny from shallow angles, or brownish iron that is blue grey in certain parts...
03:47:29 <supermop> the part worn by wheel flanges always looks bright silver, but the patina on new or unworn portions seems to vary greatly
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05:17:54 <chillcore> ^^^ one of belgiums best guitar players and maybe in the world too
05:20:38 <supermop> hows it going chillcore ?
05:21:25 <chillcore> fine fine thank you for asking, and you?
05:22:30 <supermop> had to frantically design a fake suburban home over the past couple days, now have a lull in work for another day
05:23:02 <chillcore> nice to hear. did I see you discussing tileheight with V the other day?
05:23:16 <supermop> want to get a quick a rough version of a road/track track grf out in next day or so
05:23:31 <supermop> so i need to do the slopes
05:23:37 <chillcore> 1 level is 8 pixels at zoom level 1
05:23:46 <supermop> i ended up calculating it geometrically
05:23:51 <chillcore> vehicles should not be higher than 7
05:24:13 <supermop> because in a 3d program, the height is not the true hight
05:24:42 <supermop> and draw an 8m tall pole,
05:25:02 <supermop> it will be less than 8px due to looking at it from an angle
05:25:44 <supermop> so drew some circles and triangles, and trimmed some lines between them to get the right height to use
05:26:20 <chillcore> still if you make vehicles the same height they might come peeking through the roofs of tunnel entrances and floors of bridges
05:26:47 <chillcore> I believe you can see this when building bridges over objects in trunk ;)
05:26:58 <chillcore> last time I checked anyway
05:27:21 <supermop> there are work arounds for that, but drawing tram tracks at wrong slope cannot be fixed
05:27:54 <supermop> for example the default tunnel use an illusion to be taller than 8 px
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05:28:23 <chillcore> wrong slopes? surely you can not build them on steep slopes?
05:28:27 <supermop> was the ability to bridge objects of specific heights ever added?
05:28:56 <chillcore> you can set the height of an object in newgrf
05:29:00 <supermop> no i mean, if i draw a sloped tile that is 7px tall instead of 8, it will never look ok in game
05:29:33 <supermop> so i needed to be sure of height before i drew the slopes
05:30:04 <supermop> now the issue is, it is hard to make the metal of the tracks look good
05:30:34 <chillcore> don't make it too shiny ;)
05:30:44 <supermop> in real life it changes from grey to brown to almost blue depending on the light and way you look at it
05:31:03 <chillcore> but yeah metalic objects are rather difficult to get right
05:31:21 <supermop> but because there is no perspective in game you always see a surface from exact same angle with same light
05:32:07 <supermop> but if you add some extra fake shiny, you get the problem that overhead wires have
05:32:23 <supermop> the shine repeats regularly every tile
05:32:29 <chillcore> I always seem to forget trams are there
05:32:53 <chillcore> because there is no default set for them, unless that has changed too
05:33:11 <supermop> never will be default trams unfortunately
05:33:24 <supermop> im working on a tram set
05:33:36 <chillcore> ye ... but never say never :P
05:33:37 <supermop> but now i need better tracks for them to run on
05:35:01 <chillcore> hehe, what are you using for 3d prog? just curious
05:35:18 <Flygon> Why did I read that as 3D Prog Rock
05:35:38 <supermop> cannot afford to upgrade to 5
05:35:52 <chillcore> music that is at level 15 playing flygon?
05:36:30 <chillcore> or rather *playing at level 15
05:36:45 <Flygon> But it might be a different OST
05:37:38 <Flygon> Probably Journey to Silius
05:37:50 <chillcore> hehe nice warning on tram
05:38:29 <Supercheese> So many dumb ways to die
05:39:12 <chillcore> ye I see that a lot, peeps passing i front of tram thinking it will stop on a dime like busses do
05:39:52 <Flygon> What nationality are you? O_o
05:39:57 <Flygon> Your IP is like, secretive
05:40:02 <Flygon> And I doubt you're British
05:40:07 <Flygon> The British don't know what a Tram is
05:40:16 <Flygon> They think they're just buses with different wheels
05:40:21 <Flygon> Unless they live in Blackpool...
05:40:26 <chillcore> belgian ... yeah I noticed that too since yeterday ... IP
05:40:29 <Flygon> In which case they think Trams are actually Landboats
05:40:33 <chillcore> it showed a few days back
05:42:04 <chillcore> most likely my browser being locked down good :)
05:43:08 <chillcore> typing it manually on ipad ...
05:43:21 <chillcore> not locked down so much
05:43:47 <chillcore> read: browser on pc forces https
05:46:05 <chillcore> hmm blank page ... maybe I need to allow pics hehe
05:48:46 <chillcore> ye that was it ... needed to re-enable them and reboot pad
05:53:11 <chillcore> whish they had warning like that here too ... but advertising wifi on the tram seems more important
05:54:56 <chillcore> talking of public transport ... our gov in all its wiseness has decided on an index freeze for incomes
05:55:19 <chillcore> while the price for a single trip went up 50%
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05:56:30 <chillcore> we were doing better during that record breaking period without government :P
05:56:41 <chillcore> we the people I mean
05:59:32 <Flygon> chillcore: Still bet the jobs market is better than Australia :P
06:00:42 <supermop> hmm rails just end up blue trying to make them reflective
06:01:16 <supermop> which i guess is fine, but looks weird in a game where you never see the sky
06:01:32 <chillcore> <supermop> rhinoceros 4 cannot afford to upgrade to 5 <- try unity? it is free till you make 10k with your project?
06:01:57 <chillcore> flygon: I do not know about that, unemplayment rate is pretty high here
06:02:09 <chillcore> like everywhere I gues
06:02:29 <chillcore> supermop: make sky darker?
06:03:05 <supermop> Flygon: 6% would be considered very low in many countries
06:03:10 <chillcore> it is higher here I believe, I honestly have no clue on exact figures
06:03:23 <Flygon> It's still impossible to get a job here >_>
06:03:39 <supermop> in spain it is close to 30% for young peoplw
06:04:53 <chillcore> 6.8 of total pop, 13.5% of peeps that should be working
06:05:03 <chillcore> depends how you count really
06:05:22 <V453000> i.imgur.com/k9Oq5.gif hate this already
06:05:33 <V453000> asdf and it doesnt come up as a link
06:05:43 <supermop> V453000: iron is a pain
06:05:52 <chillcore> hmm no wait that is dutchland
06:06:01 <supermop> grey isn't a real color
06:06:38 <supermop> by that i mean, put a not rusty piece of iron outside and you think "it looks dark grey"
06:06:51 <supermop> put it inside and you think "it looks dark grey"
06:07:00 <V453000> something like that I guess, reflective I would assume
06:07:06 <supermop> but outside it is blue and inside it is yellow
06:07:08 <chillcore> iron is brown-ish with spots of shiny on the inside of bends and on top
06:07:28 <supermop> because that is what it is reflecting
06:07:31 <V453000> buuuut eh, the surface usually is brushed / rusty / scratched / ...
06:07:38 <supermop> but we correct for that
06:07:55 <V453000> yeah joys of reflective shit
06:08:21 <supermop> what im saying is, something reflective metal in game - even brushed - is going to be essentially the color of its environment
06:08:41 <supermop> looks normal with your eyes ouutside, but as a sprite it looks weird
06:09:38 <V453000> especially with orthographic projection it is just weird
06:09:49 <supermop> idk when i see chrome trim on a car i never think, that metal is blue on top and asphalt colored on bottom - i think it's silver
06:09:52 <V453000> just dont make it reflect that much :)
06:09:58 <supermop> but silver is not a color
06:10:20 <V453000> atm I have a very reflective material for steel-ish
06:10:32 <V453000> no fancy shit, no maps, 154/255 reflectivity
06:10:33 <supermop> these rails look too boring as grey-brown
06:10:36 <V453000> no fresnel reflections
06:10:43 <V453000> give them a texture :)
06:10:47 <V453000> textures for everything
06:10:58 <V453000> it doesnt need to make sense, it needs to look fancy
06:11:07 <supermop> but because most of what you see on tram tracks is only the top flat surface you only get one color
06:11:27 <V453000> reflection maps also exist :P
06:12:47 <supermop> right now ive got bronze color that fades to rflective grey at shallow angles, with slight hammered bump
06:13:26 <supermop> pondering filleting all edges so the curvature is reflective an tops are dull
06:13:42 <V453000> yeah, chamfers and fillets add a nice touch
06:14:01 <supermop> chrome pipes are reflective?
06:14:10 <V453000> idk, for now they are XD
06:14:15 <supermop> looks good as accent on a drab vehicle
06:14:32 <supermop> chrome stripes on the road looks odd
06:14:47 <chillcore> that chrome on that little pipe looks very good V
06:15:13 <chillcore> too shiny for rails though
06:15:21 <V453000> it is a very simple material, nothing complex
06:15:30 <V453000> yeah on tracks it wont look good
06:15:56 <supermop> hells yes chrome the whole damn train
06:16:29 <supermop> there is a color shifting metallic carpaint as example material in flamingo
06:16:40 <V453000> bottom rusty, top reflective
06:16:48 <supermop> i want to make trams available in that as secret livery
06:17:34 <chillcore> that may be a nice easter egg
06:17:56 <V453000> I dont like single-no-texture-material things because it means you have to make the model very detailed to make it interesting
06:18:08 <V453000> the textures sell a lot
06:18:41 <chillcore> that and lighting ye
06:19:04 <V453000> eh idk, lighting is important but in case of openttd I prefer to keep one sun
06:19:22 <V453000> proper unwrapped texture just makes it look real
06:19:47 <chillcore> usually less is more ... and depends what you are doing really
06:22:24 <V453000> well some 3-point lighting etc is nice stuff, but yeah ... also, more interesting lighting means your scene has to stay at that point if you want to render various things
06:22:32 <V453000> for example RAWR scene is gigantic all over the place
06:24:54 <chillcore> most of the detail comes from the textures
06:25:27 <chillcore> the body is "just" three boxes
06:25:30 <V453000> what the actual fuck though XD
06:25:52 <chillcore> could not sleep one night ... :P
06:26:13 <chillcore> it is a modified creeper lol
06:26:23 <chillcore> except it does not go boom
06:27:55 <chillcore> that looks nice too
06:28:50 <chillcore> rails are almost spot on, them could use a little noise really
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06:53:19 <supermop> hard to get much texture to show up on a rail though
07:01:41 <V453000> yeah if you got them dived into concrete as tram tracks
07:01:47 <V453000> buuut still, can make some difference
07:02:00 <V453000> ädd it as a reflection map at some low effect perhaps
07:04:04 <chillcore> you've got wally (or similar) to create tiled textures supermop?
07:05:01 <supermop> im using a hammered metal bumpmap to alter reflectivity
07:05:39 <chillcore> j you do not ... it was very pouplar to make nice looking HL1 and quake textures
07:05:43 <V453000> photoshop eazy chillcore :P
07:06:20 <chillcore> I don't have photoshop ... way too expensive for my hobbying stuffs
07:06:34 <chillcore> and I do not model as much as I used too
07:07:08 <chillcore> ^^^ not that I was very good at it but I liked messing about a lot
07:13:27 <chillcore> not sure if the link is dead or not supermop
07:17:34 <supermop> maybe i should add sand in the bottom of the tram tracks
07:17:53 <supermop> i need to work on my concrete textures
07:44:26 <chillcore> woot found another bugsie ...
07:45:09 <chillcore> any noise parameters should ever be 0 ... or map becomes pancake
07:47:03 <chillcore> maybe some day I will be able to explain too :P
07:55:07 <V453000> browsing through the 32bpp thread I get a bit sad
07:55:15 <V453000> 1. so much stuff lost
07:55:33 <V453000> 2. zephyris actually had nice models, in contrast to what zbase is
07:55:42 <supermop> scales were all over the place then
07:56:08 *** WhiteHand is now known as BobDendry
07:56:09 <supermop> also i understand zbase as different that zeph's 32bpp stuff
07:56:56 <supermop> zbase is a coherent style, not intended to be at all photo-realistic, ad intended to produce a uniform 32b base set expediently
07:57:14 <chillcore> lost is relative ...it needs someone coding the licensed sprites
07:57:30 <chillcore> there is a repo on coop?
07:57:34 <supermop> i think the way zbase turned out was certainly intentional
07:58:27 <V453000> intentional, sure, but graphically horrible
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08:00:03 <chillcore> sure IIRC zephyris requested no help modelling untilll he got things complete? at least when he started
08:00:15 <chillcore> not sure what his stance is now
08:01:31 <supermop> he was working on a different base set
08:01:57 <chillcore> ah ok ... I have been gone for a while so I am kinda out of the loop
08:04:03 <V453000> there isnt really much to miss
08:04:17 <V453000> got stuff done as version 1, end of work
08:04:22 <V453000> of course not exactly that, but kind of
08:04:56 <chillcore> I tried importing one of his trains in Unity last year (messing about to see what the unity fuzz was about) but it is not one file one model so that did not turn out very well
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08:07:42 <chillcore> at least I know that unity imports blender models just fine, even if there were no textures ;)
08:10:20 <chillcore> I guess zbase is made using some script, did not dive into it much as one can only do so much
08:11:52 <juzza1> in the case of large blender projects, assets are usually linked across multiple files
08:13:04 <juzza1> but yeah i think there's a lot of other magic too in zbase rendering
08:21:44 <chillcore> ye this one model had like 4 trains in it, when loaded in unity they were all 4 in the same spot while in blender they were not
08:22:11 <chillcore> no much experience with blender ...
08:22:29 <chillcore> nor with unity for that matter
08:24:56 <chillcore> hmm maybe I will not need a second array afterall for small maps ... yay
08:25:12 <chillcore> testing more seeds to test ...
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08:31:48 <chillcore> yep ... suspicion confirmed ... just need to exclude zero form the params now and force it to being 1 if entered manually
08:34:47 <chillcore> might still need a seprate array to hold values but I do not need to only use six params for small maps, much easier to maintain afterwards
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10:34:36 <supermop> can i provide tramway and road already composited together?
10:34:56 <supermop> and likewise tram by itself
10:35:08 <chillcore> int32 ForceOneIfZero(int32 x) { <- this is obvious what it does or it needs documentation?
10:35:46 <chillcore> you should not supermop ... you can build tramways on tiles without road ;)
10:36:17 <blathijs> chillcore: Force one what?
10:36:37 <blathijs> chillcore: Does it do if (x == 0) return 1; else return x; ?
10:36:40 <supermop> i know, but can i have a separate tile for combines, so tram on road looks different than tram by itself
10:37:47 <chillcore> yes blathijs, perlin noise params are int32 at the moment but entering any param (of 9) as zero will result in a flat map
10:38:43 <chillcore> except I do ... if (x == 0) x = 1; return x;
10:39:07 <chillcore> will change it to what you wrote if prefered
10:39:11 <juzza1> is ?: ternary not enough for that?
10:40:48 <chillcore> yeah except that in my case the if else is skipped if not 0 so it should be faster?µ
10:41:14 <blathijs> chillcore: Doesn't really matter, it all looks the same after compiler optimizations probably
10:45:41 <chillcore> I could move it out of the window class and make it a global function, if there is a use for it. for now it resides just above OnQueryTextFinished where it is used
10:46:03 <chillcore> and it is documented on first call too
10:48:08 <juzza1> or rather, you _have_ to provide two sets of sprites
10:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <supermop> can i provide tramway and road already composited together? <-- might make difficulties on road crossings when not all road bits are covered by tram, or level crossings
10:54:14 <juzza1> right, the other set of sprites is only meant for compositing over roads
10:56:23 <supermop> i thought there were no tram only level crossings
10:56:46 <supermop> it always creates a road tile if you try to build level crossing with tram
10:56:46 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i mean graphically
10:57:12 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the level crossing is drawn by first drawing the road, then the rail, then the tram
10:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: so you end up drawing the road over the rails, making the rails invisible
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10:58:33 <supermop> i can provide tram alone easily, was jus hoping for a cleaver work around to let me tram other tram related stuff on the road part
11:02:20 <chillcore> you can do that without providing road bits?
11:03:24 <chillcore> that way if someone chooses another road set your extras are still there and the actual used road set remains uniform in style
11:04:12 <chillcore> do your extras on a transparant layer just like the actual tramtracks?
11:04:39 <chillcore> not sure if you can detect if track is being built on road or not ... depends that really?
11:05:50 <supermop> if tram is built on its own through a city, do the sidewalks on it come from the tramway grf, the road grf, or the baseset?
11:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose from the tram grf
11:06:56 <juzza1> it comes from the set defines the road graphics
11:10:18 <juzza1> "tram grf" or "road grf" could override any baseset graphics, but if you assume only "road grf" provides road graphics, then the road grf would define the sidewalks
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11:27:08 <supermop> cant get these rounded corners to look good
11:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's because of the pixels
11:34:38 <supermop> i imagine it may be better to just roughly model cobblestones going around a radius than trying to map this image i took to a quarter circle
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12:28:20 <planetmaker> <supermop> can i provide tramway and road already composited together? <-- no, not really. Tram tracks are separate and always an overlay
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15:12:47 <Samu> my afterload is wrong isn't it?
15:13:37 <planetmaker> fixing might be more appropriate
15:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause> all you need is a "for all tiles [ getoldowner; setnewowner; }"
15:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly a "fixremainingbit"
15:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but there are more things wrong with your patch
15:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> in setowner you write more bits than you are allowed to
15:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and you don't assert on "owner is not 0-14 or NONE"
15:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> which is the whole basis of your "we assume that we can write this in 4 bits" ploy
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15:29:07 <Samu> reverted Afterload to trunk version, then patched the industry bit thing
15:29:31 <Samu> if (IsSavegameVersionBefore(195)) {
15:29:39 <Samu> for (TileIndex t = 0; t < map_size; t++) {
15:30:00 <Samu> and now... I'm a bit lost what to write
15:32:09 <Samu> get the old owner which uses 5 bits
15:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> because you already wrote it down
15:32:24 <Samu> set new owner to use 4 bits, and... something is amiss
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15:39:07 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i told you several things that might be amiss
15:39:39 <Samu> if ((IsTileType(t, MP_STATION) || IsTileType(t, MP_WATER) || IsTileType(t, MP_OBJECT)) && GetWaterClass(t) == WATER_CLASS_CANAL) {
15:40:05 <Samu> Owner old = something 5 bits
15:40:15 <Samu> set owner new = something 4 bits?
15:40:22 <Samu> damn, i hope this is what you mean
15:41:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you already have functions for both of these jobs
15:43:25 <Samu> i can't put GetWaterClass at tile_map.h
15:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but why would you?
15:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> anything related with water, you should put in water_map.h
15:45:07 <Samu> tile_map.h function is incomplete
15:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> then make a SetWaterTileOwner, and find all places that use SetTileOwner to check for water first
15:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but that has nothing to do with converting old savegames
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16:08:15 <Samu> error: expected a declaration
16:11:17 <Samu> why is it so hard to do somethnig so easy
16:25:13 <Samu> how did I do it before? I don't understand, I just don't
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16:29:33 <Leander_> are you sure you are assigning the values in your if ?
16:30:04 <Leander_> I'm pretty sure you meant == instead of =
16:31:47 <Samu> where am I supposed to put this piece
16:32:12 <Samu> when i put it before the first GetTileOwner
16:33:49 <Samu> at line 425 -> error, expected a declaration
16:34:30 <Samu> at line 433 -> error, identifier 'map_size' is undefined
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17:06:13 <LordAro> Samu: suggestion: read the errors more carefully
17:06:35 <LordAro> well, the first error message
17:07:04 <Samu> too many errors to count
17:07:35 <LordAro> the first error message on your screen
17:07:37 <Alberth> you have more than one first error??
17:08:41 <Samu> if i place the part at line 3000
17:09:33 <planetmaker> beware of time-space configurations with loops. Difficult to define time then, and thus first ;)
17:09:49 <LordAro> "it compiles, ship it!"
17:10:03 <planetmaker> LordAro: I tried that with NML :P
17:10:18 <planetmaker> package maintainers complain(ed) :P
17:10:19 <Samu> so i know this is not the place to put
17:10:37 <Samu> have to place it somewhere else
17:11:02 <Alberth> I tried packaging a python package too this week, it failed quite hard
17:11:24 <LordAro> Samu: without seeing your code, or the exact error message, we cant help much
17:12:33 <LordAro> svn/git/whatever command
17:14:43 <Samu> the error is too many to count
17:14:48 <planetmaker> did you eventuelly succeed, Alberth ?
17:15:08 <Samu> i have GetTileOwner incomplete
17:15:34 <Samu> wanted to GetWaterClass, but it doesn't work inside tile_map
17:15:40 <Alberth> planetmaker: well, manually populating a directory, and 'tar czvf' always works :p
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17:16:11 <Samu> if the GetTileOwner function is incomplete, how can I work on the Afterload
17:17:45 <Alberth> at some point, I may try it again, but for 3 people, it's just tmwftlb
17:17:57 <planetmaker> hehe, yeah, likely
17:18:07 <Alberth> python packaging is quite messy at the moment
17:18:11 <planetmaker> you can try with NML. There's three package maintainers currently sad about it :P
17:18:57 <planetmaker> i(t) must have broken it somewhen during the py2to3 conversion
17:19:41 <Alberth> I had problems with quite elementary stuff, ie adding non-python files to the package just fails
17:19:55 <Alberth> no reason why is given
17:20:07 <planetmaker> for that, you might look indeed at nml. That part seems to work
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17:21:10 <planetmaker> they all need to be mentioned in the MANIFEST.in
17:21:45 <planetmaker> and possibly like: ext_modules = [Extension("nml_lz77", ["nml/_lz77.c"])],
17:21:45 <Alberth> hmm, maybe that's it, the documentation seems to claim it's not needed
17:22:16 <planetmaker> and/or entry_points
17:22:23 <Alberth> in the past, simple distutils did work
17:22:36 <planetmaker> but nml's setup.py is also more a try&error setup.py than anything else :P
17:23:08 <planetmaker> hack, read, try, cry, read, hack, try, cry, read, hack, heureka! Or something like that was the process
17:23:37 <Alberth> yeah, while not working: try random improvement
17:24:12 <Samu> i'm in a similar situation
17:24:13 <planetmaker> well... let's say: semi-random, inspired by python wiki and stackoverflow and similar
17:24:32 <Samu> the more i look, the less i know
17:24:56 <planetmaker> that actually was different when I tackled setup.py ;)
17:25:00 <Alberth> Samu: that's where you start studying the things you use
17:25:02 <planetmaker> I thought I started to get it :P
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17:25:27 <Alberth> probably you did, so they had to change it again :p
17:25:54 <planetmaker> nah, I didn't properly test the source bundles. I made sure it built properly, though from setup.py
17:26:27 <planetmaker> it just looked alright and I assumed it was alright :P
17:26:36 <planetmaker> It shows that assuming != knowing ;)
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17:31:33 <Samu> why do you say I have it done already?
17:31:45 <Samu> I don't understand what you mean with that...
17:32:14 <Samu> I haven't done anything that works
17:32:19 <Samu> and you say I have it done
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17:34:47 <Samu> what's done isnt' working exactly as I expect
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17:37:35 <LordAro> i think youve just "thrown yourself in at the deep end" a bit
17:37:44 <Samu> GetTileOwnerOld is the real GetTileOwner
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17:38:01 <Samu> my version of GetTileOwner SUCKS
17:38:06 <LordAro> you need to learn more about C(++) first
17:38:23 <LordAro> then youll be able to work out where you're going wrong better
17:41:19 <Samu> I can't change GetTileOwner, it's used almost everywhere by the game
17:41:59 <Samu> but if I don't change it, I can't implement what I want to do
17:42:37 <LordAro> you could modify it inplace
17:42:54 <Alberth> of course you can change it, but you have to be careful not to break it
17:45:50 <LordAro> well, that goes without saying :p
17:46:20 <Samu> and I was thinking m6 would be the hardest part to do
17:46:28 <Samu> turns out m1 is becoming a nightmare
17:47:19 <Alberth> that's normal, there are always nice unexpected things that you also have to do, and usually the nice things are way more difficult than the first steps
17:50:50 <LordAro> "yay, ive finished this rewrite, the program should be so much faster now"
17:51:15 <LordAro> "what do you mean it's 3 times slower?"
17:53:14 <planetmaker> from that POV we should possibly still have nml in py2 (from what I think I know). But from a look of what we can do with py3... no :) and it's faster now than in py2 times
17:54:39 <Samu> old version of water, station, object: m1 = x 01 10000
17:55:01 <Samu> new version of water, station, object: m1 = x 01 ? 1111
17:55:37 <Samu> new version of water, station, object: m6 = 11 xxxx 11
17:55:39 <planetmaker> Samu, it really is not helping that you keep writing here a stream of thought-trails...
17:56:41 <planetmaker> for one, focus on what you do. Read on how things work, think it through. And if that does not help, ask concise questions. Otherwise there's no way *anyone* can help you
17:57:30 <planetmaker> with your eternal stream of musings and what-not, no-one can follow what you do, what is your current state, what is the current problem. And that includes you yourself
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18:00:40 <planetmaker> people are happy to help usually, that includes myself. But it's extremely difficult to filter through a stream of trivia the real questions. It's exhausting on everyone
18:01:16 <Samu> objective is the same as of a week ago
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18:06:03 <V453000> so what form of wtf are you working on andythenorth
18:10:21 <planetmaker> removes an explicit py2 dependency
18:10:21 <Samu> convert owners from 5 bits to 4 bits, to free up a bit
18:10:46 <Samu> convert that free bit to have meaning
18:11:44 <Samu> only convert when waterclass is canal, else don't do anything
18:12:12 <glx> hmm how can you store 16 companies and special owners in 4 bits ??
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18:12:25 <planetmaker> glx, we only have 15
18:12:42 <Samu> there's owner none for canal
18:12:52 <andythenorth> planetmaker: eh yes that would be useful
18:12:56 <glx> ha right 0xF is not a company
18:12:57 <andythenorth> then python 2 is gone
18:13:06 <andythenorth> V453000: I am wtf-ing nothing today
18:13:18 <andythenorth> I had a nice game going, but I got bored
18:14:15 <andythenorth> Alberth made a new Busy Bee which fixes the bugs in mine
18:14:23 <andythenorth> but GS can’t be swapped on a game :P
18:15:00 <planetmaker> he... but you don't use findversion.sh it seems :D
18:15:37 <andythenorth> iirc some makefiles blow up if I remove PYTHONPATH or such
18:15:44 <planetmaker> seems not. Probably older Makefiles with that one explicitly in the Makefile
18:15:44 <andythenorth> didn’t test today though
18:20:37 <Alberth> andythenorth: tried just copying the .nut files?
18:21:00 <Alberth> (be sure to make a backup copy)
18:21:55 <planetmaker> he... VMWare is being sued for GPL violation... using kernel code without publishing code it seems
18:22:15 <andythenorth> Alberth: last time I tried it, OpenTTD just disabled the GS
18:22:28 <andythenorth> didn’t try again :D
18:22:38 <andythenorth> if the data structures have evolved, it’s probably a bad idea
18:23:21 <Alberth> andythenorth: oh, some fields in info.nut are likely critical
18:23:56 <Alberth> load/save data has not changed
18:24:22 <Alberth> so you should be able to load an old savegame into the new BB
18:24:37 <planetmaker> if they lose the case, they have to publish sources of ESXi...
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18:31:25 * chillcore did a good deed and infected public pc with OpenTTD :P
18:31:41 <chillcore> hello frosch and planetmaker
18:33:17 <chillcore> I have a point to prove ... I also rigged a so called protected bios to boot from USB tommorow morning :(
18:33:31 <chillcore> but I will undo that before harm is done ;)
18:34:11 <chillcore> I did notify one person ...
18:34:23 <planetmaker> evilzzz hackorrzz, you ;)
18:34:49 <chillcore> to see if that so calld security company will even notice and call them to disable pc at all ... :sadface:
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18:35:37 <chillcore> the funny part is that that bios prog is called "gag" which means joke in french ... the irony
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18:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "gag" in english is either a joke, or something you put in someone's mouth so they can't speak
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18:45:36 <chillcore> I guess they meant the latter ... it is supposed to either let you boot os or enter password to access bios
18:45:53 <chillcore> ofcourse if you press 'that' button ... sigh
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18:52:40 <Samu> my draft is misleading grrr
18:52:50 <chillcore> in better news ... I have two bugsies left ... some minor todos (cleanup and documentation) and then tuning
18:53:23 <chillcore> besides shortening the code and later the addons
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18:55:27 <chillcore> also no need no more to use only six parameters to get terrain generation for small maps working properly thanks to int32
18:56:04 <chillcore> ^^^ yiehaa for cleaner code and maintenance later on
18:57:13 <chillcore> I posted some screenshots of small maps in my topic alberth ... better?
18:59:36 <Samu> i can't do this. if my life depended on this, I would be dead
19:00:11 <Samu> i created a draft to better visualize my goal
19:00:28 <chillcore> 'good thing your life does not depend on it and you have all the time in the world ;)
19:00:29 <Alberth> looks ok-ish. I should play with a big mountain some day
19:01:29 <Samu> from old behaviour to new behaviour, there has to be convertions
19:02:04 <Samu> maybe this way, it's easier to point out what i must work on
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19:04:34 <Alberth> I would start with learning c++ if I were you
19:05:37 * andythenorth tried writing a patch once
19:05:52 <andythenorth> not knowing c++ was only the second problem
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19:10:19 <peter1138> Fucking stupid truck, drove into the side of me :(
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19:11:58 <chillcore> ouch ... you are fine yourself I hope?
19:15:00 <Samu> if i couldn't before, then it's not now that i could
19:16:38 <Alberth> under that assumption, you will not be able to do anything
19:17:42 <Samu> i dropped university because i failed at everything, i felt i was in the wrong department
19:18:22 <peter1138> chillcore, eh, ETS2
19:19:56 <chillcore> you did not say that at first peter
19:21:19 <Alberth> these videogames get so live-like nowadays :p
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19:27:43 <andythenorth> peter1138: is it any good? I can’t play it, runs like a dog
19:27:55 <andythenorth> clearly Apple hardware isn’t up to it
19:31:17 <Samu> i must have been the most horrible person to ever be on this chat, i just feel that way
19:31:59 <Samu> cant get anything done right
19:32:13 <andythenorth> award for most persistence with least result :)
19:32:25 <andythenorth> there have been many worse, offensive, hopeless, idiots
19:32:56 <Samu> yes, but i drag you with me
19:33:25 <andythenorth> mostly this channel is me or V453000 typing monologues
19:33:29 <Samu> sometimes I wonder why do I even try
19:33:35 <andythenorth> or Eddi|zuHause blathering about cats
19:33:52 <Alberth> or andy asking about cats :)
19:34:14 <Samu> i know the end resut is that I won't go anywhere without guidance
19:34:56 <chillcore> and? none of us was born a coder or graphics artist or musisian ...
19:34:58 <Alberth> it's not guidance you seek
19:35:09 <Alberth> at least, that's how it looks to me
19:36:47 <Alberth> with guidance, a hint in the right direction is sufficient, you seem to ignore what we say
19:37:07 <Samu> i dont ignore, it's just that I don't get what youmean
19:37:08 <Alberth> unless we tell you exactly what to do
19:37:50 <andythenorth> this is approximately what happens to me when patching OpenTTD
19:37:52 <Alberth> but that's not helping any of us
19:38:32 <Alberth> it's not helping me, as I can do it quicker by myself, and it's not helping you, as you don't learn how things work
19:38:57 <Alberth> you just learn tricks without understanding why or how
19:40:02 <Alberth> which means at the slightest change you're stuck again
19:40:17 <Alberth> I don't know how to help you
19:42:08 <ST2> imo the best help/suggestion was already made, many times. learn at least the C(++) basics
19:42:17 <ST2> that would help Samu alot :)
19:42:24 <glx> <@peter1138> Fucking stupid truck, drove into the side of me :( <-- toll booth ?
19:43:02 <glx> the only place where they ignore mirrors
19:43:13 * andythenorth now has ETS 2 rage
19:43:19 <andythenorth> I have bought it but can’t play
19:43:23 <andythenorth> you’re all playing it
19:43:34 <Alberth> buy a new computer :p
19:43:40 <glx> even when lowering graphics ?
19:44:26 <andythenorth> I have considered a new computer
19:44:33 <chillcore> you need to take it slower samu ... do something much simpler first and don't try to do 3 things at once after indeed learning the basics of coding; does not even have to be c++
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19:49:06 <Alberth> oh great, andythenorth, our first contributed patch for BB!
19:49:23 <Alberth> thanks ST2 (assuming it's you)
19:49:43 <ST2> well, when I saw your reply that simple idea came up :)
19:50:26 <Alberth> I pondered about it too, was wondering if a plain multiplier would be ok, as it grows very fast
19:50:56 <Alberth> I somewhat thought about adding percentage
19:51:03 <ST2> well, max is 20, but 7500 * 20 of Mail is insane xD
19:51:27 <Samu> I'm off to play, put this on hold
19:51:31 <andythenorth> Alberth: for our next trick…he writes his own GS ;)
19:51:49 <chillcore> hehe I had a 'drive me nuts' setting in bugpack for towngrowth
19:51:58 <Alberth> I have had 6,6K mail goal, that was crazy already :)
19:54:03 <andythenorth> nice spaghetti network
19:54:28 <andythenorth> forgot I did that
19:54:45 <andythenorth> V453000 would weep
19:54:59 <andythenorth> “WHERE IS MOAR LOGIC”
19:55:43 <ST2> at least Samu gonna play Busy Bee too, to relax :)
19:57:18 <Alberth> lots of water andy :)
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20:09:16 <Oddingar> I've been reading on the forum regarding several timetable patches, what is recommended per today?
20:10:17 * andythenorth files timetables under non-understandable things
20:10:49 <Oddingar> meaning there's no improvements that are working properly? :P
20:12:12 <Alberth> for some value of "working", yes
20:12:54 <Alberth> but it depends on how you play the game, I guess
20:14:46 <Oddingar> I'll have to get back to you on that one, I think
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20:18:06 <Alberth> it looks a bit out of date
20:19:03 <Alberth> you may want to keep in mind that you can 'start' a time table at a certain moment, for all vehicles with the same shared orders, by holding CTRL while starting
20:19:34 <Alberth> ie hold CTRL key when you press the 'start' button at the gui
20:19:57 <Oddingar> yeah, but you ahve to spread the vehicles or trains manually to get it working, right?
20:20:26 <Alberth> no, if you start like above, the computer sets up the starting times like that
20:20:48 <Oddingar> and I figure this would be really neat to evenly spread engineering/farm supplies
20:21:21 <Alberth> I never figured out much how time tables work at all
20:21:43 <andythenorth> I use them for ‘wait 5 days’ or such sometimes
20:21:44 <Alberth> I play with break downs enabled, so it's messy to say the least :)
20:21:53 <andythenorth> because there’s no % load
20:22:08 <andythenorth> but everything else I’ve tried with timetables doesn’t do anything useful
20:22:17 <andythenorth> I was going to say “doesn’t work” but that implies bugs
20:22:41 <andythenorth> I have failed to understand what they add to gameplay
20:22:58 <andythenorth> afaict they are for foamers to recreate accurate timetables of specific real-life trains
20:23:02 <Alberth> but some people use them all the time, and are happy with them
20:23:15 <andythenorth> there are many types of people in the world :P
20:23:31 <Oddingar> well, I see on one of my games when I hit 200 trains or so it gets a bit tricky to keep track on everything, so was hoping someone had found a solution :P
20:23:45 <andythenorth> build a fault tolerant system :)
20:23:50 <andythenorth> don’t try and track things :)
20:24:35 <chillcore> they help to spread out your vehicles instead of them bunching up ... untill breakdowns or servicing happens :P
20:24:38 <Alberth> just watch trains running smooth, and stations having a waiting train
20:24:43 <andythenorth> how are they supposed to work?
20:24:56 <andythenorth> it’s non-deterministic how long a vehicle takes to complete a leg
20:25:00 <Alberth> keep an eye on the amount of cargo at stations
20:25:25 <andythenorth> and the timetable can’t make the vehicle exceed the max speed for the terrain, load etc
20:25:45 <andythenorth> so the only timetable that isn’t late is one that has excess slack
20:25:53 <andythenorth> so a timetable is almost always wrong
20:25:54 <Alberth> you make the time table too long, and the train will arrive early every now and then
20:26:03 <chillcore> I've even seen games where peeps have a waiting/holding stations to have trains stay overnight ... with daylenght patches that is
20:26:11 <Alberth> then it will wait until it's 'on time' again
20:26:16 <Leander_> I use time tables exactly for that: regular delivery of engineering supplies in FIRS, when the station is close, all I do is make it stall a bit after delivery
20:26:48 <andythenorth> I just add vehicles to the route until the industry is at max production
20:26:54 <andythenorth> is that more or less complex?
20:27:10 <chillcore> ye you add some time to the timetable to catch up from breakdowns/congestions/unsheduled servicing
20:27:21 <Alberth> less control over how much gets sent to the industry, I guess
20:27:38 <andythenorth> how do timetables handle upgraded vehicles? Are they recalculated?
20:28:09 <Alberth> not that I know, nor does it handle additional vehicles you buy later afaik
20:28:32 <Oddingar> Leander_: are you happy with the way it works using regular time tables? maybe I'll have to give it a go again
20:28:34 <andythenorth> how do they handle congestion on rails / runways / airbridges / roads
20:29:04 <andythenorth> if I add more trains / planes / RVs on new routes are the timetables recalculated?
20:29:05 <Alberth> you add sufficient additional time to handle such cases
20:29:19 <andythenorth> we should rebuild the internet so packets are scheduled
20:29:40 <chillcore> right because steam users are so delighted with that feature ...
20:30:16 <Alberth> like you said, it's great if you have a fixed setup, and never change tracks, engines, or number of engines
20:30:19 <Leander_> Oddingar the thing is, I seldom use it because most of the time my trains take more than 3 months to deliver and come back, so there's no reason to stall them
20:31:19 <andythenorth> I did try scheduling ships
20:31:24 <andythenorth> to avoid them all overlapping
20:31:29 <andythenorth> but it doesn’t actually work
20:31:46 <andythenorth> autofill is borked, and I cba to count how many days the routes took
20:32:10 <chillcore> but ye if you upgrade vehicles you basically have to redo that routes timetable
20:32:22 <Alberth> ships somewhat work for me, but it's a lot of manual work
20:32:53 <Alberth> but for ships it's useful as they seldom change
20:33:01 <andythenorth> % load was ruled out recently, but I forgot why
20:33:09 <andythenorth> was it determined to be boring?
20:33:32 <Alberth> I have come to the conclusion it could be useful at times
20:34:10 <andythenorth> somebody mostly convinced me that it isn’t wise
20:34:13 <Alberth> the real trick is that you have to dramatically change the order system, I think
20:34:37 <andythenorth> eh, but would we? o_O
20:35:07 <Alberth> for time -> infinity, we will :)
20:35:12 * andythenorth has an insane idea about vehicles routing dynamically
20:35:21 <andythenorth> and reserving cargo in advance at their next hop
20:35:44 <andythenorth> tramp steamers basically
20:35:45 <Alberth> dynamic routing would be sooo nice
20:35:52 <andythenorth> it would be bonkers
20:36:14 <andythenorth> trucks do it too, and some freight planes
20:36:18 <andythenorth> trains….not so much
20:36:30 <Alberth> probably get all kinds of feedback loops in the system
20:37:46 <Oddingar> aight, thanks for your reply guys :P
20:39:09 <Oddingar> oh yeah, Leander_, same here, therefore I got more than one train carrying engineering supplies, and theres where the issue start, sometimes two trains arrive at the same time, and I can't seem to find a usefull way to even them out
20:39:21 <Oddingar> especially when the network is a bit crowded at times
20:39:55 <Alberth> a long track without signals works quite nicely
20:40:43 <Alberth> or a single track shared between in and outgoing trains
20:40:46 <Leander_> can you make them pause at a waypoint?
20:41:11 <Alberth> no, you have to build a passage
20:41:40 <chillcore> no but you can abuse a single tile station for that with no load/unload orders ;)
20:41:46 <Alberth> but with path signals it's easy to force them to wait until they can find a safe spot in the next block
20:42:28 <Oddingar> is there other patches recommended?
20:43:01 <Alberth> I always play trunk / nightlies :)
20:45:04 <chillcore> I always end up playing with code somehow :P
20:45:17 <Alberth> it's a much more challenging game :p
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20:51:25 <Alberth> ST2: As for the BB patch, setting place seems fine, but perhaps make it between 50% and say 2000% ? note that "difficulty" easy/medium/hard has very little meaning, as you can take practically as long as you desire to fulfill a goal (timeout gets reset when you deliver)
20:52:55 * andythenorth adds Busy Bee to forum sig
20:53:22 <Alberth> I'd be happy to add it
20:53:32 <ST2> well, I'll try that tomorrow, @ pub now ^^
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21:00:50 <ST2> any suggestion for step_size? maybe 10 ^^
21:02:23 <Alberth> you don't have a step-size, do you? just a min/max number
21:02:27 <ST2> hehe, from 50 to 2000, even 10 seems low (lots of clicks needed)
21:02:47 <Alberth> you know the double click trick?
21:03:07 <Alberth> a window opens and you can change the number with the keyboard :)
21:03:28 <ST2> well, some players dnt know it ^^
21:03:39 <ST2> and I change always the settings in cfg file
21:04:03 <ST2> "always the hard way" Chuck Norris
21:04:18 <Alberth> right, then you'd have to go from 5 to 200, with 10 == 100%
21:04:40 <ST2> got a computer here (cibercoffee)
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