IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-03
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07:09:21 <ChoHag> <Michi> Here's the bug fix release 2.
07:10:50 <ChoHag> Also, about feckin' time.
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07:35:14 <planetmaker> a patch to a patch is always on time, never too late nor ever too early ;-)
07:36:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that was "a wizard is never late"
07:39:49 <planetmaker> badly cited from memory, but still recognized ;-)
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08:05:16 <bodis> only have a couple of minutes now so wont bother asking questions but I am glad I found my way here now ::)
08:05:59 <bodis> discovered openttd 4 days ago
08:06:10 <planetmaker> there's also a well-frequented forum at tt-forums.net
08:06:39 <planetmaker> but yes, probably most people here will agree, bodis ;-)
08:06:46 <Terkhen> yes, I'm now struggling to code instead of playing :/
08:07:07 <planetmaker> Terkhen, it's also a kind of adiction ;-) - or playing with other means
08:07:08 <bodis> yep I was coding before and now havent opened gedit for 4 days straight :)
08:07:48 <bodis> anyway gotta take kids to the park talk to you lot later
08:08:19 <planetmaker> yup. Already compiled it this morning during breakfast ;-)
08:09:14 <Terkhen> and it fixes the most annoying parts :)
08:09:30 <Terkhen> that's why I'm struggling, but I really should do something useful today :P
08:09:36 <planetmaker> reads like it, yes
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09:32:47 <bodis> right as you might have guesed I am new to ottd
09:33:08 <bodis> I am a debian man and current release on debian is 1.0.4
09:33:34 <Noldo> check what you might get from backports
09:34:04 <bodis> just wondered if there is alot of difference
09:34:11 <bodis> I wont be multiplaying yet
09:34:40 <Noldo> You'll have to read through the changelogs to know for sure
09:35:05 <Noldo> I'd propably play atleast few games with the version you can get easy
09:35:29 <bodis> right then you guys do still play single player?
09:35:52 <bodis> cos all the infor on the net suggests that majority are playing coop
09:36:01 <Terkhen> yes, single player is quite common too
09:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> get the latest release from www.openttd.org/download-stable there are also .debs available
09:36:05 <Noldo> I'm all Eve online and League of Legends lately, but there is nothing wrong with single player
09:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.0.x is missing quite a lot over 1.1.x
09:36:41 <Terkhen> in fact until a few months ago I only played single player
09:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: "coop" is only a very loud minority ;)
09:37:39 <Noldo> oh my there are a lot of thing tagged Feature in 1.1.0-beta1
09:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there are many very different playing styles around
09:37:55 <bodis> so I managed to get my game 20 years in game and got 20mil pounds
09:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: of course, almost a year worth of new developments
09:38:22 <bodis> is it all about trains and plains?
09:38:29 <bodis> roads seems to be not needed at all?
09:38:37 <bodis> what is the general idea?
09:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have ships and trucks too. especially within cities where there isn't a lot of space
09:39:07 <Eddi|zuHause> from online content you can get tram sets, those are incredibly well for passenger transport in cities
09:39:09 <bodis> but rail seems to be the main money maker?
09:39:28 <bodis> what is the goal these days?
09:39:40 <bodis> get most money or create the best infrastructure?
09:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no real goal
09:40:20 <bodis> does the game stop at 2050 even if you start 1930?
09:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the game never stops
09:40:42 <Terkhen> the score screen always appear at 2050, but you can keep playing for a few million years IIRC
09:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> 2050 you get a nice table with your score, but it has no real end
09:41:23 <bodis> what size maps do you guys go for?
09:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the score calculation isn't the best part of the game anyway
09:41:31 <V453000> this game has basically no limits :P that is why it is so good
09:41:55 <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: as a beginner, you shouldn't get too large, but not too small either
09:41:58 <bodis> heh need to rethink my strategy :)
09:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> 256 or 512 each side
09:42:55 <bodis> should I play with oppnents or on my own?
09:43:21 <V453000> sure, it has multiplayer
09:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the opponents might teach you some things, but they tend to get in your way quickly
09:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (if you mean AI opponents)
09:43:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played with opponents in years
09:43:57 <V453000> oh :D I didnt even consider those
09:44:48 <bodis> o the real goal is not to score at 2050, its to create a super network
09:45:34 <V453000> you create your own goal basically
09:46:02 <bodis> ok then, so really you wanna connect cities with roads, rail and the rest
09:46:18 <Terkhen> it is relatively easy to get perfect rating before 2050
09:46:42 <Terkhen> I always fail because of the "profits over 20.000€" parameter, but only because I use road vehicles
09:46:51 <Terkhen> if I only used trains I would have no problems on getting 1000
09:47:09 <Terkhen> so it is a nice goal when you are learning, later you forget about it
09:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: basically you set yourself goals like "nice looking", "very efficient", "very high cargo amount" or "connect everything" and then play on
09:47:42 <Terkhen> yes, those are the most frequent goals :)
09:48:01 <Terkhen> although I usually do "I'm going to build stuff until I'm bored"
09:48:17 <V453000> which usually results best :p
09:48:43 <bodis> right I read somewhere about creating your main depot away from cities so you can expand freele?
09:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> not all tips you find on the net are important for all playing styles
09:49:23 <V453000> or even for at least any :P
09:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i myself play without breakdowns, so i don't really have a need for depots
09:49:54 <V453000> do your trains break once in a while?
09:50:04 <V453000> like they stop and produce steam and then they continue
09:50:35 <bodis> no I dont have breakdowns
09:50:52 <bodis> do you have like a main line through the map and connect to it?
09:51:15 <V453000> yes, I always did that
09:51:28 <V453000> keeps it somewhat systematic
09:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> this was my last game on a small (128x256) map: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%205.%20Nov%201988.png (12MB)
09:53:02 <V453000> looks nice :) my last game on a small map resulted in 5000 road vehicles ._.
09:53:42 <bodis> Error: Dependency is not satisfiable: libicu38 (>= 3.8-5)
09:53:54 <Terkhen> how do you manage the buses for local transport at big towns? lots of groups, or a single group following a large route?
09:54:13 <Terkhen> bodis: that usually happens when you download a deb file that is not created for your debian/ubuntu version
09:54:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i make several groups. one for each line
09:54:32 <bodis> hmm that was a squeeeze
09:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause> wait, i have a picture for that as well
09:55:30 <Terkhen> I have started recently to use groups, I'm still trying to find the best way to organize them
09:55:37 <V453000> does alpine climate work fine with FIRS?
09:56:11 <bodis> do the towns join together later in the game?
09:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: no, i hacked it
09:56:26 <Terkhen> bodis: they keep being separate towns, but they can grow into each other
09:56:48 <Terkhen> OpenGFX+ Landscape has an alpine setting too :)
09:57:01 <V453000> yes but that doesnt allow ttd base tiles
09:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> only opengfx base
09:58:02 <V453000> yes ... so how do you "hack" it? :)
09:58:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the RV groups: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%204.%20Aug%201953_3.png
09:58:35 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: thanks :)
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09:59:21 <bodis> do you need to start planting big stations at the start of the game or do you do alot of demolishing later on?
09:59:30 <bodis> cos it seems that towns grow in your way
09:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you replace sprite 1060 (iirc) of alpinew.grf with an unconditional jump to end of file, and remove the alpine compatibility check from firs
10:00:20 <V453000> oh, so modifying the newgrfs
10:00:40 <V453000> bodis: just set their growth to slower rates or disallow them to build roads on their own (best option)
10:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> additional work required if you want food acceptance for houses, but easier to load swedish houses, that almost eleminates all alpine/default houses from the map
10:01:13 <bodis> but if they dont grow you dont get business
10:01:37 <ChoHag> Bloody coal mine stopped shipping to the destination immediately after I paid for a £100k line linking to it.
10:01:38 <V453000> but you manage the roads so they do not screw it up
10:10:20 <bodis> so if you build roads to towns they will grow only around roads?
10:26:30 <bodis> do you guys download any addons?
10:27:29 <bodis> there are a few new GRF items to download
10:28:08 <bodis> whats all that newGFR ?
10:28:17 <bodis> seems to be items like new trains etc
10:37:19 <Alberth> extensions originally containing only graphics, but nowadays you can code almost everything in the game in it; vehicles, tracks, houses, industries, eye-candy, etc
10:38:14 <Alberth> usually you should refrain from loading several sets that do the same
10:38:28 <Rubidium> almost everything is far far from true
10:39:26 <Alberth> there is a better description available, in less words than the entire spec?
10:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your general boundaries of "everything"
10:41:08 <ChoHag> He did say 'almost' everything.
10:41:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if you mean "life, the universe, and everything", then the answer is 42.
10:41:14 <Rubidium> yes, but what you just said kinda implies that all patches can be implemented as NewGRF and thus downloaded via the in-game downloader. Only reinforcing the "myth" that it is actually possible
10:42:16 <Rubidium> it's more like NewGRFs provides constants for OpenTTD's game model
10:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> for various interpretations of "constant" :p
10:42:56 <Rubidium> but, that now most of those constants can be computed on the fly by the NewGRF
10:43:09 <Alberth> like industries behave like a constant :p
10:43:56 <bodis> so should I download anything?
10:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> while Alberth's description might have been too general, yours was too limited definitely
10:44:07 <Rubidium> i.e. NewGRFs don't add any features beyond what is implemented in OpenTTD's game model
10:44:10 <ChoHag> Anything which has an interesting description.
10:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: you can download everything, but you should not enable everything at the same time
10:44:32 <bodis> ok I think I will stick with original for a while :)
10:44:32 <Alberth> bodis: click 'online content' in the main menu
10:45:06 <Alberth> there is a NewGRF category there :)
10:45:35 <Alberth> unfortunately, it misses useful tagging, so unless you sort of know what to look for, it is a big pile
10:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> start slowly, with one newgrf set, explore what it does, then the next game add another, and so on
10:46:12 <Alberth> obviously these extensions are discussed at the forum
10:46:49 <bodis> but first need to get my first city going :)
10:47:01 <bodis> need to get me kids out again :)
10:47:16 <Alberth> in the openttd forums, you'll find use of them in context of openttd
10:47:40 <Alberth> always glad to help someone to an addiction
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11:31:12 <planetmaker> <V453000> yes ... so how do you "hack" it? :) <-- there is no legal way which also looks good
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12:36:13 <ChoHag> Wtf? That's twice now supply industries have stopped shipping to connected destinations.
12:36:16 <ChoHag> Michi what did you DO?
12:37:47 <glx> how many stations around ?
12:38:00 <Alberth> any revent new destinations popped up?
12:38:06 <ChoHag> New destinations, yes.
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12:38:27 <ChoHag> But that shouldn't close down active routes.
12:38:53 <ChoHag> Not without a big warning. "Your trains are all about to start losing money fast."
12:39:33 <peter1138> a well serviced route shouldn't be replaced, imho
12:39:34 <Alberth> such a warning sounds fair enough
12:40:06 <ChoHag> Closing down is fine - business is business after all.
12:40:49 <ChoHag> But not without warning, at the very least.
12:41:05 <peter1138> it should also be supplier-centric, i reckon
12:41:07 <ChoHag> Perhaps the option of a cash injection to keep it going to see it if becomes profitable.
12:41:13 <Alberth> sounds like a setting
12:41:21 <ChoHag> ie. the ~ £100k line I'd just finished when the route closed.
12:41:45 <Alberth> oh, that happens with plain openttd too
12:42:30 <peter1138> something like industries prefering nearby suppliers unless a long distance supplier has greater production
12:43:44 <Alberth> that does not eliminate the above problem
12:44:17 <ChoHag> I think perhaps supply routes can open and close in the same fashion as industries open/close.
12:44:23 <ChoHag> Probably in the same news item.
12:44:56 <Alberth> there is too much such news already :)
12:45:20 <ChoHag> That way new industries can 'supply' to pretty much everything in a certain radius, then once links are made, only the profitable ones remain.
12:45:33 <ChoHag> Yeah there needs to be better news filtering
12:46:17 <Alberth> huh? --> "then once links are made, only the profitable ones remain."
12:46:18 <ChoHag> eg. ignore any industry not in a catchment area of one of my own stations.
12:46:45 * planetmaker always has turned off all news ;-)
12:46:49 <planetmaker> except vehicle crashes
12:46:50 <ChoHag> Well a coal mine (say) in the (perhaps misnamed) outgoing cargo section to everything within a certain distance.
12:46:59 <ChoHag> Then the player comes in and links some of those up.
12:47:14 <ChoHag> Eventually those which are linked up will remain in the list, the others will go away.
12:47:28 <Alberth> you are thinking of cargo-dist (dest?)
12:47:50 <ChoHag> Occasionally (not just when new industries are planted) new links will open up, perhaps with a subsidy offer, with a chance to remain if the transportation is supplied.
12:47:54 <Alberth> yacd doesn't care about what you do, afaik, at this time
12:48:05 <planetmaker> which is not too bad
12:48:25 <planetmaker> if it cared, it'd be cargodist
12:48:43 <ChoHag> There ought to be some amount of caring.
12:49:08 <planetmaker> only thing which indeed also bothers me is the high volatility of routes when there are few suppliers and many recipients of a cargo
12:49:11 <Alberth> I can imagine that to be a setting
12:49:14 <ChoHag> Usually busineses care most about those things which make actual money.
12:49:15 <Terkhen> that's work for a different patch IMO, you might want to try the cargodist addition that fonso did for yacd
12:49:52 <ChoHag> Oh I know YACD doesn't do this.
12:49:57 <ChoHag> I'm just thinking aloud.
12:50:10 <planetmaker> well. Mixing up unrelated problems doesn't help solutions at all
12:51:27 <ChoHag> Problem: Supply/demand links which are used nonetheless close down. Solution: Profitability of a transport is a prime deciding factor in whether a supplier continues to supply to a particular destination.
12:53:00 <ChoHag> Closely related, industries will happily supply most of their cargo to an unconnected industry on the other side of the map.
12:53:28 <planetmaker> how is the latter a problem?
12:53:38 <ChoHag> It's not. It's just a bit silly.
12:54:07 <planetmaker> where do you think the coal which is fed to the power plant a few streets further down is dug out of the Earth?
12:54:14 <Alberth> yacd just adds the idea of cargo having a destination. Policies how to allocate/maintain destinations is a level on top of that, imho
12:54:17 <planetmaker> where does the butter come from? Or the tomatoes?
12:55:04 <ChoHag> Um. Completely fucking stupid is not the same thing as 'a bit silly'.
12:55:20 <planetmaker> I don't see the 'sillyness' in it, not the least.
12:55:25 <planetmaker> It's even relaistic
12:55:30 <ChoHag> As a creator of widgets, I'm happy to sell to whoever will buy them, but more likely to sell to people close by as shipping is simpler and easier.
12:56:02 <ChoHag> At the very least, people close to me are more likely to buy (ie. demand) widgets from me than an identical widget manufacturer 1000s of miles away.
12:56:46 <planetmaker> unless they differ by something the rough cargo specs of OpenTTD cannot grasp
12:56:59 <ChoHag> Indeed not, but that is the exception rather than the rule.
12:57:04 <planetmaker> may that be price or functionality or whatever.
12:57:22 <planetmaker> if you say, so it must be so. I maintain to disagree.
12:57:24 <ChoHag> I daresay that more of the oil drilled out of the North Sea goes to the Scottish refineries than those in the US or the far east.
12:57:32 <ChoHag> Some will, undoubtedly.
12:57:36 <Thorn_> Yes, the north sea belongs to us.
12:57:49 <Thorn_> And we will take it back, and with it, our FREEDOM
12:59:45 <ChoHag> This is not my opinion.
13:00:11 <ChoHag> Buy cheap, sell dear. Cheep is directly correlated with Close (ie. transportation costs).
13:00:40 <fjb> The transport company does not buy the cargo. It just transports it. So when a factory at the other side of the map buys some stuff it has to be transported there somehow.
13:00:50 <ChoHag> There's always a reason why a general rule doesn't hold in a specific case, but that doesn't stop it from being a general rule.
13:01:36 <ChoHag> But the liklihood of a factory buying stuff from the other side of the world is a lot lower than the likilhood of buying stuff from a supplier a few hundres miles away.
13:01:37 <planetmaker> fjb just made your whole argument void, though ;-)
13:02:04 <fjb> TTD is about transporting stuff, not about buying it.
13:02:44 <ChoHag> Yes, and that's why it turned into a game of find-the-longest-link-you-can.
13:03:27 <ChoHag> But YACD is a (generally quite successful) attempt to undo that by introducing, or perhaps correcting, the concept of supply and demand.
13:03:29 <fjb> Longest link doesn't always give the most profit.
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13:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and big gui without big font seems kinda pointless
13:23:26 <Terkhen> yes, I wonder why he did not change it
13:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> all button texts should be center-aligned imho
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14:03:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "Graphics set: original_dos_de (0)" <-- does anyone have a statistics how the distribution between base set usage is?
14:07:29 <Rubidium> ... it's more a bug report per base set statistic
14:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> could crawl the screenshot forum ;)
14:08:51 <Rubidium> I guess it's better that orudge runs osie over all attachments or something
14:11:26 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, about 65% of the bug reporters use OpenGFX
14:12:35 <planetmaker> not a huge statistical basis, but... consistent
14:13:28 <Rubidium> ah, I forgot ones they pasted as a comment
14:14:05 <Rubidium> but yes, as you can see... 6 times as many people use no graphics than the original german dos graphics
14:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> how does one use "no" graphics?
14:15:36 <Rubidium> crash before a graphics set is chosen
14:16:03 <planetmaker> Rubidium, how did you get by that statistics?
14:16:43 <Rubidium> grepping the tracker's attachments
14:17:07 <planetmaker> so all attachment since when flyspray started?
14:17:29 <planetmaker> that gives a certain bias ;-)
14:18:00 <planetmaker> as OpenGFX was not around since the beginnings of FlySpray? Or do I err?
14:18:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but nobody cares about opengfx ;)
14:18:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the bias for non-unique users is way bigger
14:18:36 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, not in the data set I provided
14:18:53 <planetmaker> but yes, it is. But my data also show that that bias is not big
14:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and i guess the number of bug reports actually increased
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14:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you also need to consider that the crashlog is not as old as flyspray either
14:19:34 <Rubidium> ... the crash logger data grep crawled through was only introduced in 1.0.0, whereas OpenGFX existed a dozen moons before that
14:20:21 <Ammler> hmm, what was first opengfx or openttd dos support?
14:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> what? dos graphics support was almost as old as openttd itself
14:22:00 <Rubidium> Ammler: closeer to half a gross of moons
14:22:28 <Rubidium> Ammler: look for "OpenTTD runs with the grf files of the DOS version" in the changelog
14:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'd rather say openttd was palette-agnostic right from the beginning, only since newgrfs came along the trouble started with multiplayer
14:23:42 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, not true
14:23:58 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway DOS grf support was here long before i came
14:24:12 <peter1138> dos grf support wasn't just about palettes
14:24:23 <peter1138> the dos grfs miss some sprites that the windows grfs have
14:24:52 <Eddi|zuHause> anything other than the fishuk-icon?
14:25:23 <peter1138> - Fix: Non-existing sprite #5125 (presignal). The DOS grf file trgi.grf has 6 less sprites than the windows one [SF#1188777]
14:26:10 <peter1138> yes, sourceforge, not flyspray :)
14:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so nobody even tried for 1200 revisions? :p
14:27:05 <Rubidium> planetmaker: those are the fisheye things. The rest is just because for DOS it put the extra GRFs' sprites 6 positions earlier
14:28:29 <peter1138> (svn r1038) Feature: OpenTTD runs with the grf files of the DOS version
14:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "MI6 replaces bomb-building instructions with cake-recipie"
14:28:38 <peter1138> so it didn't, before that
14:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but large parts of that revision only handles the filenames
14:30:08 <peter1138> a lot of it is the palettes
14:39:54 <planetmaker> hm, a certain Terkhen was faster with the reply in the water tower and banks thread ;-)
14:47:22 <Rubidium> so much time wasted to make it valid html ;)
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14:48:01 <planetmaker> plain text would have sufficed ;-)
14:50:50 <planetmaker> he... there's a surprising amount of variation of what actually NewStations v0.42 from 05.09.05 actually is ;-)
14:51:13 <planetmaker> 7 or 8 md5sums...
14:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the name is wrong anyway, it's actually NewStations v0.44
14:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have 3 different grfs by 2 palettes, makes 6 files
14:54:39 <planetmaker> World Airliners Set Modified Development Release r538 <-- also around several times
14:55:03 <planetmaker> ttrs 3.02a around also a couple of times (6)
14:55:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what data is the foundation of this list?
14:55:34 <planetmaker> servers reporting their use
14:55:59 <planetmaker> I assume. As I asked for it ;-)
14:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> currently running servers?
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15:02:16 <Rubidium> nope, all used NewGRFs by any server that the masterserver's updater did have the time for to get the name for
15:03:30 <Rubidium> (there are 3 newgrfs it didn't get the name for so those aren't listed)
15:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> aren't there some GRFIDs that are reserved?
15:05:20 <peter1138> hmm, people using opengfx as newgrf?
15:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there are tons of ECS grfs
15:05:34 <Rubidium> probably from long long ago
15:05:38 <planetmaker> Thus the last two should not be there. But there's some sleeping bug, IIRC
15:06:12 <planetmaker> it's his "call sign"
15:06:15 <Rubidium> when the check wasn't working correctly
15:06:20 <peter1138> fbfb0401 is metro track, and also firs
15:06:32 <Rubidium> or even... the extra grf used in 0.6.x
15:07:39 <peter1138> GRF\界面\OTTD温柔草地.grf
15:08:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so all servers that ever reported to the masterserver?
15:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (and that were online for a significant amount of time)
15:09:17 <Rubidium> since sept 2007 IIRC
15:09:44 <Rubidium> or since I rewrote the masterserver
15:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "Doppelstockwagen DBz750" <-- some grfs are out there that i never heard of
15:12:30 <peter1138> dunno about russianw.grf though
15:12:56 <peter1138> yeah, i might've done a unicode version of the original
15:14:01 <planetmaker> now, though... do we make an authorative list of taken grfIDs from that?
15:14:26 <planetmaker> similar to how people can claim AI short names?
15:14:52 <Ammler> train length display in the depot does not work with Verdana
15:15:54 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it is a list of taken GRF IDs
15:16:26 <Rubidium> but I wouldn't call it authorative
15:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if FBFB is foobar, what is 4642 then? (that should be "FB" if i didn't miscount)
15:17:59 <peter1138> probably uses both :)
15:18:00 <planetmaker> Rubidium, it's certainly not all NewGRFs and their IDs. But it certainly would be a good start.
15:18:33 <Rubidium> you could compare it to the grfid list from grfcrawler
15:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it certainly serves for blocking these IDs from bananas
15:19:00 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, doesn't make sense. Authors might want to upload them
15:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: name comparison?
15:19:38 <peter1138> besides, if you blocked based on id, someone would just change the id
15:19:51 <planetmaker> that'd be the point
15:20:08 <planetmaker> to not add new newgrfs using an already taken ID. But still...
15:20:50 <Rubidium> if they're not on bananas yet, who really cares?
15:21:57 <planetmaker> Uploaded IDs are already blocked by default
15:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: someone who wants to upload such a GRF gets a message: "a GRF with ID XX XX XX XX and name YYYY already exists, but is not uploaded to BaNaNaS yet. if you are the author of this set, please contact <support> for permission to upload. if you have a different set, please change the GRFID, check <website> for list of used GRF-IDs"
15:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause> with fixed style ;)
15:24:16 <planetmaker> Might make sense. But then, admittedly, I don't think that any of the old NewGRFs which are not on bananas will ever get there - thus I'm not really convinced it is work well spent
15:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> err... there's a NewShips with ID 6D32...? "mB"?
15:26:25 <planetmaker> maybe an eddi-like hack of an existing NewGRF ;-)
15:26:35 <planetmaker> to circumvent some whatever check
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15:30:02 <planetmaker> my search string query is too long for grfcrawler ;-)
15:30:23 * Rubidium sees that as a low priority feature request... first all the bugs in bananas ought to be fixed ;)
15:30:39 <Rubidium> planetmaker: just request a "dump" of grfid + name from eis_os
15:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> a simple website with a search field "is this grfid used yet" might be useful. put it in a sticky in the grf development forum
15:32:39 <peter1138> one day it'll support 32bpp too
15:32:40 <planetmaker> but there's no place yet which to query, Eddi|zuHause
15:33:18 <planetmaker> 4 of 41 IDs found on the first test in grfcrawler
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15:35:25 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'd like to know the reverse
15:35:37 <Rubidium> how many ids from grfcrawler are known by the masterserver
15:36:07 <planetmaker> let's see what he'll reply
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15:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is the "Do not put files into content_download, they may be overwritten" thing part of the readme?
15:45:18 <planetmaker> the "do not put them there" yes. Overwritten... not really.
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15:45:37 <planetmaker> But it's clearly said that user files have no belonging there
15:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> well, better add it
15:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe even put a "directories.txt" (copy of section 4.2) into ~/.openttd
15:49:02 <planetmaker> also a readme_files.txt? ;-)
15:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> redundancy is very important in educating people :p
15:50:59 <planetmaker> which then lists readme, known_bugs, changelog.txt, docs/admin_network,txt, docs/Readme_OS2.txt, docs/o??_format.txt docs/multiplayer.txt docs/landscape*.html docs/HOWTO_compile_lang_files.txt docs/ReadmeWindows_MSVC.txt
15:51:06 <planetmaker> oh, docs/32bpp.txt
15:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i mean, people who manage to find My Documents\OpenTTD might have never seen the binary and its readme before
15:52:38 <planetmaker> I mean... readme has even a table of content. So who doesn't open a readme doesn't look into directories.txt either
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15:53:03 <planetmaker> that might be true. But that then just should mean to place the readme.txt there
15:54:20 <planetmaker> which then c/should mention where to find the additional doc files... maybe just another copy of the readme file
16:21:32 <andythenorth> Ammler: there was some talk about a bananas dev environment, maybe on a vm?
16:23:21 <Ammler> andythenorth: no problem, just tell me what you need
16:23:35 <andythenorth> I don't know how the production environment is configured
16:23:52 <Ammler> Truebrain only maybe :-)
16:24:49 <planetmaker> nginx and django. The database is MySQL afaik
16:25:11 <Ammler> I guess, we could simply use the svn?
16:26:16 <planetmaker> not quite, I guess. It can't be in the repo as there are files which contain passwords
16:27:03 <Rubidium> everything but the passwords are in subversion
16:28:16 <Ammler> andythenorth: are you able to setup a server?
16:28:27 <Rubidium> IIRC you need the whole website directory
16:28:50 <Ammler> Rubidium: not possible for you to setup a kind of stage server?
16:29:29 <TrueBrain> better question, why you would want something like that
16:29:52 <Ammler> TrueBrain: how should andythenorth test patches for bananas?
16:30:13 <TrueBrain> not; BaNaNaS should be considered dead
16:30:16 <TrueBrain> and only be used to study
16:30:20 <TrueBrain> making patches for it is silly
16:30:35 <Ammler> you think, someone should start from scratch?
16:31:19 <Yexo> why should someone start from scratch if there already is a codebase available?
16:31:27 <Yexo> ie why would making patches for bananas be silly?
16:31:56 <TrueBrain> I love that I have to say the same thing every 3 months or so :D :D :)
16:32:00 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is poorly written
16:32:03 <TrueBrain> and performance poorly
16:32:10 <TrueBrain> reading the code would be identical to writing it from scratch
16:32:14 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: also if bananas in your eyes has a broken leg, that's no argument against people trying to provide a walking stick
16:32:16 <TrueBrain> wirting from scratch in this case will be much better
16:32:19 <TrueBrain> trust me, I wrote it :)
16:32:32 <TrueBrain> it is nice to read it, and use it. But making patches will do more harm :)
16:32:34 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you ask this way for others to make the same mistake(s) again
16:32:43 <TrueBrain> starting from scratch will give a much better platform :)
16:32:57 <planetmaker> and "will do more harm" is why a test environment is asked for
16:33:03 <Ammler> well, andythenorth did you study the bananas source?
16:33:08 <Yexo> TrueBrain: you keep saying that (same for WT), but what exactly is so wrong with the current platform?
16:33:19 <Yexo> and will someone else who starts from scratch not make exactly the same mistake?
16:33:31 <TrueBrain> Yexo: constraints changed
16:33:47 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: OpenTTD was also not re-written when transition from c -> c++ happend. what's different here?
16:33:52 <TrueBrain> the whole database is poorly designed for what it has to be now
16:34:21 <TrueBrain> ugh .. guys: I don't care what you do. My advise is: start from scratch. If you don't want to follwo that advice, I don't care (really, I don't. There is a reason this is open source)
16:34:32 <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is poorly designed
16:34:38 <TrueBrain> it should be start from scratch, with a good design document
16:34:41 <planetmaker> you may know what and how things could work better. But others can learn probably a lot and see the limitations if they could test...
16:36:16 <andythenorth> Ammler: I have read some of the bananas source
16:36:35 <TrueBrain> let me just conclude with 3 things: 1) good luck setting up a dev-env (wish it was different, it isn't). 2) we are not going to make tons of minor database changes. 3) a from-scratch approach will be much easier for who-ever does this, as he is no longer bound by the constraints of the framework we created years ago
16:36:49 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what are the key performance issues?
16:36:57 <TrueBrain> performance issues: non
16:37:15 <TrueBrain> few good topics with what is wrong
16:38:09 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I am not a noob in software development. Trust me, if I say a from-scratch is better, it is. If you don't believe me ... feel free to find out :)
16:38:15 <TrueBrain> again, I don't care. I am just giving you guys suggestions :)
16:38:58 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how 'big' is bananas
16:39:00 <Alberth> Yexo: WT needs generalizing to arbitrary newgrfs imho.
16:39:03 <TrueBrain> it still makes me smile if I realise how abuse we are towards the used Python framework (django) :) So totally abused :p
16:39:08 <Yexo> there are currently 5 open bus in the BaNaNaS category. 1 of them seems to be a simple bug in the code (the tags one)
16:39:14 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: size in what way?
16:39:19 <Yexo> 3 of them are about dependencies
16:39:28 <Yexo> TrueBrain: is that the part where the constraints changed?
16:39:30 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: few hunderd lines
16:39:36 <andythenorth> number of complicated things depending on other complicated things?
16:39:46 <TrueBrain> Yexo: the system was designed for something different than how it is used, yes :)
16:39:52 <TrueBrain> I knew that after a month already :p
16:39:59 <Alberth> django is not the best framework for complex stuff it seems, judging from #python comments I read
16:40:06 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the only 'big' thing is the link to ottd_content
16:40:06 <andythenorth> I have to learn pyramid
16:40:12 <TrueBrain> Alberth: it really isn't :)
16:40:17 <TrueBrain> if I could do it over, I would never use django :)
16:40:20 <TrueBrain> it works for small sites
16:40:26 <TrueBrain> for anything bigger ... omfg ...
16:40:34 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what would you use?
16:40:51 <Yexo> Alberth: wrt WT, I completely agree
16:40:57 <TrueBrain> the biggest mistake in my opinion was the fact I thought more people could contribute
16:41:01 <andythenorth> well I have to learn pyramid for 2 non-openttd projects
16:41:04 <TrueBrain> with Django, only a handful know what the fuck they are doing :p
16:41:17 <andythenorth> switching to pyramid is complete new system fallacy, but...whatever
16:41:21 <TrueBrain> if it would have been PHP, problems would be solved so much quicker
16:41:29 <Yexo> TrueBrain: you're not exactly making it easy for other people to contribute either
16:41:32 <TrueBrain> (then again, PHP is slow :p)
16:41:41 <andythenorth> I can't even figure out how to patch :P
16:41:44 <orudge> Plus, you can write pretty elegant PHP these days
16:41:48 <andythenorth> I'm used to having a buildout for the framework
16:41:49 <Yexo> some instructions on how to set up a local test environment would go a long way towards that
16:41:50 <orudge> well, I suppose you could in the past, but most people didn't ;)
16:41:54 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: good luck with trying to get it to run :D I am terrified doing that again ...
16:42:04 <andythenorth> I'm not going to bother
16:42:06 <TrueBrain> Yexo: that is exactly the point. Django is not made for that, and I have no fucking clue
16:42:21 <TrueBrain> orudge: haha, true there
16:42:27 <Yexo> ok, that definitely is a big problem than :)
16:42:45 <TrueBrain> Yexo: and we still use django ancient. I am terrified of upgrading
16:42:53 <TrueBrain> there is a reason I keep saying: rewrite over patching :p
16:43:00 <Yexo> now you're here: any updates on WT 3.1? Or is that also still in the planning stage
16:43:20 <TrueBrain> if study doesn't consume my time, OpenDUNE does. So no progress what-so-ever
16:43:33 <Zuu> I guess that's a problem with all frameworks, that they are hard to upgrade?
16:43:46 <TrueBrain> Zuu: they are. And the amount of hacks we used didn't make it easier :)
16:43:52 <TrueBrain> we cheated so many times to get what we wanted :)
16:43:58 <andythenorth> pyramid has awesome documentation, unusual for a python project :P
16:44:18 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: take it from me, your first 5 projects will be terrible :D
16:44:45 <Zuu> So you'll get a basket full of bad fruit.
16:44:46 <andythenorth> that's why I wouldn't mind if one of those was bananas, not software that has paying clients
16:45:16 <TrueBrain> ottd_content requires some tables to be in a certain state, but that is changable
16:45:32 <TrueBrain> the rest is free, design-wise
16:48:01 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: and regarding BaNaNaS, if you ever want to get some feedback on ideas and designs, just PM me. I can assist you as far as my memory streches regarding current implementation :)
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16:49:26 <andythenorth> I would need a collaborator
16:49:33 <andythenorth> my database design skills suck
16:50:38 <TrueBrain> names most of the things
16:51:14 <TrueBrain> not sure if it is in there, but I believe there was also a demand that you could add a 'depend on' grf which auto-updates to newer versions or something .. can't really remember, not always paying attention :)
16:52:43 <SpComb> great thing about Python web frameworks is there are so many to choose from
16:52:47 <SpComb> the annoying thing about ..
16:53:09 <andythenorth> that's why pylons and repoze.bfg were merged
16:53:14 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: also, I wrote BaNaNaS I believe in 1 or 2 days. To give another idea of 'big'
16:53:23 <TrueBrain> Pylons merged with like 5 other projects :p
16:53:40 <SpComb> one step up from stdlib cgi
16:53:43 <andythenorth> I haven't used django
16:54:04 <andythenorth> zope is overkill
16:54:07 <andythenorth> plone is a monster
16:55:50 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: is the performance particularly an issue?
16:55:58 <andythenorth> seems bananas doesn't need to do many write?
16:56:05 <andythenorth> quite a lot of reads
16:56:09 <TrueBrain> speed-wise, there are no issues at all
16:56:10 <andythenorth> not many complex queries
16:56:13 <TrueBrain> everything is fast and speedy
16:56:35 * andythenorth ponders using zodb
16:56:36 <TrueBrain> the complexity of BaNaNaS is not in the frontend, it is in the uploading tbh :)
16:57:01 <TrueBrain> things have to depend on eachother, more people want to contribute, blabla :)
16:57:19 <Zuu> Possible also in the variety of actions that it need to support for uploaders.
16:57:32 <Zuu> Eg. selection of old libraries as dependencies etc.
16:57:51 <TrueBrain> and give these dudes 10 minutes, and you have a long long long long list :D
16:58:23 <TrueBrain> AMQP can be nice for uploading :D
17:01:43 <TrueBrain> bit over the top I guess
17:02:11 <SpComb> we obviously need to write the web frontend in C
17:02:57 <TrueBrain> always someone who can go over it :D
17:03:44 <TrueBrain> some people are insane :P
17:04:20 <SpComb> ..and the coursework we did this spring
17:07:02 <TrueBrain> I learnt last year that I really dislike the Python language :p
17:07:11 <TrueBrain> most noticable, the indentation
17:07:41 <SpComb> invalid criticism, not accepted
17:07:59 <SpComb> python's indentation is very flexible
17:08:17 <SpComb> you can do very nice multi-line expressions
17:08:31 <TrueBrain> makes code si fucking hard to read :(
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17:15:26 <Ammler> rails would be a good framework, but there is no ruby coder
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17:16:07 <TrueBrain> they all died out of crazyness :p
17:17:01 *** Guest3313 is now known as Chris_Booth
17:18:48 <Rubidium> isn't ruby for Japanese?
17:21:35 <Ammler> well, anyway, if there is need for a stage server or whatever, just ping me :-)
17:21:45 <Thorn_> ruby coders don't last long, at some point they all go off the rails
17:22:31 <Ammler> but rails would be so nice for openttd :-)
17:22:53 <orudge> I thought the aim was to rewrite it in something people know? ;)
17:23:12 <orudge> sounds like x86 assembler would be best
17:23:14 <Ammler> orudge: that might be php only
17:23:17 <TrueBrain> hmm ... a new design won't hurt either :D
17:23:26 <orudge> Ammler: which might not be such a bad thing :)
17:23:32 * orudge is potentially going to play around this weekend with some ideas
17:23:40 <orudge> whether anything will come of them, I don't know, but we'll see
17:23:45 <TrueBrain> I wouldn't mind PHP at this stage :)
17:23:47 <orudge> depends on how much I end up drinking tomorrow I suppose :P
17:23:59 <Ammler> a merge of bananas and grfgrawler?
17:24:09 <TrueBrain> at least would give some continuity
17:24:10 <orudge> just potentially rewriting the main web site framework in PHP
17:24:23 <orudge> moving the web site to something sane would at least aid that idea ;)
17:25:05 <orudge> using something like Smarty would seem to be straightforward, well-known and a hell of a lot easier to administer than the current stuff :P
17:25:08 <Ammler> there are just so many php frameworks
17:25:17 <TrueBrain> orudge: nothing wrong with the templates tbh :)
17:25:22 <Ammler> you will for sure chose the wrong
17:25:26 <orudge> TrueBrain: the templates themselves, no
17:25:43 <orudge> Ammler: maybe, but generally, picking one of the more popular ones seems to make sense, no?
17:25:44 <TrueBrain> just PHP is so incredibly slow :(
17:25:57 <TrueBrain> CakePHP or Prado :p
17:26:12 * Zuu has coded some ruby, but not more than say 1000-2000 lines in total.
17:26:23 <TrueBrain> Zuu: keep it that way :D
17:26:37 <Zuu> It's nice, but python wins for its larger user base.
17:26:47 <orudge> TrueBrain: hmm, well, that can be improved, to some degree, with the likes of eAccelerator, and a decent FastCGI web server
17:26:52 <orudge> but yes, I guess it can be
17:26:57 <orudge> I should maybe get some dinner
17:26:58 <Zuu> And all the development team issues with Ruby.
17:27:05 <TrueBrain> what I like about RoR and django etc, is that they stay in memory, and have much shorter paths to travel
17:27:08 <TrueBrain> PHP keeps booting up :p
17:27:16 <orudge> I guess there's always mod_php ;)
17:27:23 <TrueBrain> openttd.org works without caching (had to disable it :D)
17:27:28 <TrueBrain> and still we can handle a slashdot :p
17:27:31 <Rubidium> I'm not sure whether php really is an issue, but... it seems like most sites written in it use a global connection to the webserver
17:27:50 <Rubidium> ... which means all sites running there'll use the same connection :(
17:28:07 <Zuu> Also most programs that has an API for extension support Python - not ruby.
17:28:13 <orudge> Rubidium: well, if you're using FastCGI, then it depends on how you set it up, really.
17:28:30 <orudge> if you're using mod_php, then everything runs under the Apache process (I don't think there's a mod_php for any other web servers these days, except maybe IIS)
17:28:42 <orudge> unless I'm confusing what you mean
17:28:48 <Rubidium> orudge: might very well be, but I'm not that into webserver configuration
17:28:58 <TrueBrain> orudge: ugh, lets not use apache :D
17:29:06 <orudge> TrueBrain: I'd really rather not :P
17:29:21 <orudge> I'm a lighttpd fan, but then I tend to use it in fairly simple configurations
17:29:28 <orudge> so I've never really encountered all these leaks and bugs you seem to have
17:29:48 <TrueBrain> bigger sites more problems :)
17:29:51 <TrueBrain> nginx works very well
17:30:00 <TrueBrain> but ... we max out what we can deliver for mediawiki atm
17:30:20 <Rubidium> yeah, that beast is obnoxious
17:30:21 <TrueBrain> I have some ideas for it thou ..
17:30:25 <Ammler> Zuu: or is that just api for rails?
17:30:30 <TrueBrain> but that requires ... 'other things' to happen first :p
17:30:39 <TrueBrain> REST is a design principle
17:30:57 <TrueBrain> build on HTTP/1.1 protocol
17:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> why don't these things ever have google-able names
17:31:39 <Rubidium> anyhow, for whoever who wants to change bananas... please keep the columns of the tables that the content server uses the same ;)
17:31:45 <Ammler> orudge: isn't lightly also going to die?
17:32:13 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, that also might use some refactoring ;) :D
17:32:22 <SpComb> lighty died a while ago
17:32:46 <Ammler> orudge: last release somewhen last year :-)
17:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> mis-stabs are evil :p
17:33:00 <SpComb> and no bugfixes/features for ages during that year either
17:33:33 <TrueBrain> for simple work, nginx rules
17:33:39 <Ammler> people go back to apache or switch to nginx
17:33:39 <TrueBrain> almost no memory, very fast, very consistent
17:34:44 <SpComb> missing CGI annoyed me a little with nginx
17:34:56 <andythenorth> Ammler: can we afford the memory ruby needs? Seems to need as much as plone
17:34:58 <Ammler> SpComb uwsgi for pyhton
17:35:17 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I think the contentserver side is quite fine; I don't see what major refactoring would be needed in it
17:35:17 <Ammler> andythenorth: devzone needs around 700MB
17:35:18 <andythenorth> many projects have ditched RoR
17:35:30 <Ammler> but that is with all the vcs too
17:35:46 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: something about stats? :)
17:36:18 <TrueBrain> yeah, sadly RoR is slowly fading
17:36:20 <andythenorth> anyway, if *someone* wants to collaborate with me *and* use python...I'll have a go
17:36:36 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you don't like PHP? :D
17:36:49 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: hmm, true... though that might be better done in a script running e.g. daily
17:37:00 <Ammler> andythenorth: you can have a fresh vps with the distro of your choice
17:37:02 <andythenorth> complex answer: no I don't like php, but my opinion is not valid
17:37:06 <andythenorth> short answer: no
17:37:08 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yeah, but remember the document we wrote ... a year ago, about new way of colelcting stats? :)
17:37:16 <TrueBrain> required some refactoring in some tables ottd_ uses :)
17:37:59 * andythenorth would sack the tags personally
17:38:10 <andythenorth> and just rely on authors writing good descriptions, then text search those
17:38:16 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: in all honesty, but that is just me speaking, I am very unsure about Python for OpenTTD. We have this website now for .. 5 years? Not a single person outside me or Rubidium has ever written a patch for it as far as I know. Then people can complain about the lack of availability etc, but you are the first (!) person to ask how to set it up himself
17:38:41 <andythenorth> if anyone wanted to switch to PHP, there would be much more support
17:38:46 <andythenorth> but I wouldn't work on it
17:38:51 <TrueBrain> the tags are, in my opinion again, a missed try. We wanted to get them to use, but as far as I can see, they aren't really used :) It was nice if it would have worked, but it doesn't seem to work :)
17:38:54 <Rubidium> though I rather keep the content server as trivial as possible and do the difficult "splitting" bit in an external script
17:39:04 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I agree :)
17:39:21 <andythenorth> bananas should be switched to wordpress
17:39:27 <andythenorth> that would do it
17:39:33 <Rubidium> like there's a script that parses the httpd-logs into a the binary statistics
17:39:49 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: not a bad idea, to make ottd_content write a log file of access
17:39:55 <TrueBrain> instead of writing to mysql
17:40:13 <TrueBrain> might also be nice for masterserver
17:40:20 <TrueBrain> to get some idea about MP usage etc
17:40:25 <Rubidium> true, though then the "download" stats per newgrf aren't live anymore
17:40:26 <Zuu> Hmm, maybe it would help to get more support if no framework is used?
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17:40:44 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: updater is better suited for statistics gathering
17:40:44 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: true; but do we really want that?
17:41:03 <TrueBrain> the UPDATE downloads+=1 is pretty expensive
17:41:44 <TrueBrain> and of course the content service is _much_ more used then initial estimated :)
17:43:26 <TrueBrain> regarding frontpage, I leave it to the other developer to pick that direction. Go back to PHP, or keep rowing in Python :)
17:43:27 <Zuu> Sounds like classical traffic theory. When access is easier, more people will use it.
17:43:50 <TrueBrain> Zuu: and the more dangerous it becomes that it gets out of control :D But yes :)
17:44:24 <TrueBrain> on a month I still get a lot of emails from people asking for help regarding OpenTTD or the CF. Nobody ever mailed me how to setup the website :p Says a lot about how unknown many people are with django I guess :)
17:45:09 <peter1138> why would anyone else want to set up the website?
17:45:23 <TrueBrain> for development, for one
17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22533 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt czech.txt):
17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
17:45:25 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by rala
17:45:32 <TrueBrain> and in the past we had people setting up the server-page only on their own master server
17:45:32 <peter1138> yeah but nobody does that
17:45:35 <TrueBrain> in LAN parties and stuff
17:45:37 <peter1138> it's always someone...
17:45:37 <TrueBrain> was really funny :p
17:46:00 <TrueBrain> that people do that? Yes!
17:46:05 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD on LAN parties? That is just epic
17:47:45 <__ln__> When there's OpenTTD, what else could people possibly need on a LAN party.
17:48:07 <Thorn_> I can only imagine bearded stoners sitting for hours on end passing the joint and competing over bus routes
17:48:18 <andythenorth> no framework == make your own accounts, your own acls, your own template language
17:48:29 <andythenorth> your own dispatcher, error framework
17:48:44 <andythenorth> request handler, database connectors
17:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what does "stoner" have to do with either "lan party" or "openttd"?
17:49:02 * Rubidium knows only one nutter who ran a masterserver on his own server and had a reasonable amount of servers registered to it
17:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> does his name start with an l?
17:49:54 <Terkhen> heh, there were alternative master servers?
17:50:00 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yeah, you need some kind of framework. That I also miss in PHP: an ORM
17:50:10 <TrueBrain> I loved that about django (and also about Pylons, SQLAlchemy etc)
17:50:16 <Thorn_> Eddi|zuHause: It comes by definition of openttd at a lan party.
17:50:25 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: wins the Amazon cookie!
17:50:36 <TrueBrain> you also cheated :D
17:51:18 <TrueBrain> still more servers than clients
17:51:21 <TrueBrain> guess some things never change
17:51:42 <TrueBrain> no more 0.4.8 servers :p
17:51:44 <TrueBrain> although a 0.6.3 server
17:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably not going to change. the real question is: did the number of clients increase?
17:52:09 <TrueBrain> we don't have those statistics, sadly enough
17:52:13 <TrueBrain> that is why I love the logging :)
17:52:34 <Zuu> Perhaps someone shall make the code changes so that you can run a client that seeks up servers, joins and run a random/selected AI.
17:52:41 <Zuu> Then, we could get up the client count :-)
17:52:55 <TrueBrain> Zuu: you mean those 5 lines of code? :p
17:52:56 <Zuu> At least until the server-people do the same thing.
17:52:59 <planetmaker> [19:40] Rubidium true, though then the "download" stats per newgrf aren't live anymore <-- via some cronjob they could be somewhat live. Like daily, 6hour-ly or so. That's enough
17:53:44 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Would also need some lines of code to automate it so you never need to pick servers yourself and just leave it on for days :-)
17:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought the masterserver-updater already runs as cronjob and that was the entire point to move it there
17:54:08 * andythenorth reads bananas source to try and grok it
17:54:17 <TrueBrain> the only cronjob it runs is a cleanup of the database :p
17:54:20 <TrueBrain> to remove old servers
17:54:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: they're two dedicated daemons
17:54:25 <TrueBrain> (if that script still runs :D)
17:54:35 <andythenorth> so the website and bananas are the same app?
17:54:44 <TrueBrain> 1 project, multiple apps
17:55:06 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so I only need to read what's in /bananas
17:55:18 <andythenorth> that's way simpler :P
17:55:20 <TrueBrain> although it heavily depends on django and the hacks we made for it in / :D
17:55:32 <TrueBrain> yeah, bananas is not that big
17:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of cronjobs: is there a way to tell my crontab to treat a specific line as utc when my system is actually in ce(s)t?
17:56:23 <andythenorth> is bananas one monolithic thing? I.e. does it handle admin interface + API for openttd?
17:56:32 <Rubidium> and... if possible, does the reverse work as well?
17:56:48 <Rubidium> andythenorth: API for OpenTTD is a separate daemon
17:57:18 <Rubidium> to be found in ^/extra/masterserver_updater
17:57:29 <andythenorth> Rubidium: so it reads the mysql tables?
17:57:48 <andythenorth> is there any other caching etc? or I should read the code?
17:58:48 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it has no caching whatsoever
17:58:54 <Rubidium> (the daemon that is)
17:59:47 <Rubidium> there is some caching-ish related code, though that's related to the binaries on the webserver as those are only mirrored out occasionally
18:00:10 <Rubidium> (after each binary build that ends up on binaries.openttd.org)
18:00:53 <TrueBrain> we wrote too complex systems :D
18:03:25 <Eddi|zuHause> bah... i got this thor thingy (syfy production, not the movie), but it's totally stupid
18:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> if A-Movies are high budget ones, B-Movies are low budget ones, C-Movies are zero-budget knockoffs and D-Movies are pornos, then this is an E-Movie.
18:09:18 <SpComb> they pay you to watch it?
18:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i should sue them for compensation ;)
18:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause> lost time and bandwidth :p
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18:43:29 <Amis> Is it possible that sometimes prospecting indusrty fails?
18:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is intended
18:45:27 <Amis> Yaay for throwing out 4 million euros x.x
18:45:42 <Eddi|zuHause> not every time you tell people "go find oil" they actually find any
18:46:12 <Ammler> but the chance to find is quite high in openttd
18:47:04 <Amis> Not if you are playing with islands
18:51:55 <Ammler> well, you can change the setting and fund those
18:52:38 <Alberth> oilrigs should work quite well with islands :)
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19:15:27 <planetmaker> provided my grep, cut and sed orgy didn't fail anywhere
19:16:16 <Rubidium> ffffffff seems like a bogus grf of some sorts
19:16:40 <planetmaker> by name yes. The grfID there is bogus. Only 7 characters. That's why
19:16:56 <planetmaker> cutting that out and the FFFFFFFF leaves 9
19:17:24 <Rubidium> no, the uk waypoints one is 8 long and matches perfectly
19:17:49 <Rubidium> the grfid is the one above the name, not below it
19:18:38 <Rubidium> how many entries are in grfcrawler?
19:18:44 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22534 /trunk/src/ai/ (ai_config.cpp ai_config.hpp ai_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#4631] (r21250): doing rescan_ai in a game with running AIs caused a crash
19:19:18 <planetmaker> right. I copied the wrong lines when grepping for the 7-thing entry. There are 248 entries which have a somewhat reasonable grfID
19:19:42 <Rubidium> somewhat reasonable?
19:19:58 <planetmaker> two which are not that format, DW xy, which is one of the DWE things, OG+4 is one of mine and 34 is no grfID
19:20:02 <Rubidium> you mean the rest is non-hexian garbage
19:20:05 <planetmaker> and empty is no grfID either
19:20:38 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0.0403225806452
19:20:45 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 4.03225806452
19:21:11 <planetmaker> the total number of entries is slightly above 300, including those w/o grfID. Which are quite a few
19:21:16 <Rubidium> so 4% chance of a NewGRF from grfcrawler not being known by the server
19:21:49 <planetmaker> which is as good as 100% :-P
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19:23:21 <Rubidium> and a 1.25% chance of a NewGRF not being known in general
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19:25:21 <Rubidium> you might want to consider the first 4 nibbles
19:25:58 <Rubidium> 293 unique ones in the master server's list
19:26:21 <Rubidium> so with those added ~300
19:26:47 <Rubidium> which means 0.5% of the available author ids has been used
19:27:40 <planetmaker> He, indeed even I used mine once
19:28:30 <planetmaker> but for most... OG+ ;-)
19:28:38 <planetmaker> which hardly is an author
19:32:47 <frosch123> wow, the logs of this channel have not been so interesting for long :)
19:33:01 <frosch123> what's the "DBSextXL Extension"? :p
19:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue...
19:36:52 <frosch123> it's also amazing how many grfs are on the list, which were already deprecated before ottd existed :o
19:37:26 <Rubidium> I guess they're on the frontpage of ttdpatch or something ;)
19:41:18 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the one that says "TTDPatch 2.0 rev 1 Released"? :p
19:42:19 <frosch123> Rubidium: even the ttdp front page has only dbset 0.5
19:43:29 <frosch123> the list contains a dbset 0.3 and even a dbset without version number
19:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause> because 0.82 is not 2.0 compatible, only 2.5-beta
19:46:37 <Rubidium> see... that's the reason dbsetxl isn't on bananas...
19:47:09 <Rubidium> the "standards" platform doesn't have a stable release yet
20:01:35 * andythenorth wonders about spec for bananas v2
20:02:30 <Terkhen> IIRC LordAro was working on readme display ingame, I guess you should make sure that the readme files follow some common rules
20:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only one who thinks "andy's spec" is an oxymoron? :p
20:03:03 <Alberth> Terkhen: /is/ working on it, afaik :)
20:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i meant if you take the FIRS cargo spec as example :p
20:05:13 <andythenorth> in that case we apply 'the code *is* the spec' :D
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20:10:23 <planetmaker> :-D Yes, I'm guilty
20:10:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i found that odd as well :p
20:11:15 <andythenorth> bananas is not much code
20:11:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what he said
20:11:50 <andythenorth> but presumably depends on account function for ottd website
20:12:39 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how is authentication handled for openttd? Is it per-domain?
20:15:17 <Rubidium> there's a ldap server
20:16:28 <andythenorth> a better question might be: would a rewrite of bananas have to also handle authentication? Or is that handed elsewhere?
20:16:52 <frosch123> the authentication is the same as for webtranslator
20:17:07 <frosch123> you only need to login once, don't you?
20:18:04 * andythenorth is trying to figure out how accounts would be shared or use groups, as requested on FS
20:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a many-to-many relation between grf-id and author-accounts
20:21:47 <andythenorth> but it gets complicated
20:22:15 <andythenorth> if there are two user roles then permissions have to be checked in more depth
20:24:26 <Rubidium> do we want two user roles?
20:30:28 <andythenorth> I would hope not
20:30:39 <andythenorth> I am reading the feature requests :P
20:30:45 <andythenorth> user roles slows everything down
20:30:53 <andythenorth> development-wise
20:31:13 <andythenorth> means fine-grained acls are needed
20:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "Austria better team, Germany wins 2:1, Germans shoot all goals" ... something is wrong :p
20:32:57 <andythenorth> feature requests for bananas?
20:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, a bananas-grfcrawler-hybrid is needed
20:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. categories, searchable website, ...
20:40:52 <andythenorth> I think exactly that
20:41:30 <andythenorth> grf categories mostly map to types in nfo spec?
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20:41:40 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22535 /trunk/src/table/sprites.h: -Cleanup: Remove uneeded constants, update and unify some comments relating to sprite numbers
20:41:55 <Terkhen> I think so: landscape, industries, trains, road vehicles, rail types
20:42:11 <Terkhen> also the current ones; heightmaps, scenarios, AIs, AI libraries
20:42:43 <andythenorth> in the FS there is discussion about dependencies
20:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles (road, rail, plane, ship), infrastructure (road, rail, stations, airports), landscape (terrain, objects)
20:42:55 <andythenorth> dependencies scare me
20:43:02 <frosch123> and "monolithical" for stuff containing more than one thing
20:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> AIs already have dependencies
20:43:18 <andythenorth> frosch123: I should split HEQS?? :P
20:43:43 <TWerkhoven> nah, just have grf's listed in any category that applies
20:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i only ever used the trams of HEQS
20:43:53 <TWerkhoven> so if a grf has rv's and trains, list them in both
20:44:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: i found an option to disable some weird trains
20:44:25 <Terkhen> I use the HEQS trams a lot :P
20:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: oh, and the Gmund Mog (both versions) :)
20:44:51 <Terkhen> I have never used the rail Gmund Mog though
20:45:38 <andythenorth> dependencies scare me :P
20:45:47 <andythenorth> how does / would openttd work with them?
20:45:58 <andythenorth> does it fetch all deps?
20:47:24 <andythenorth> is that already handled?
20:48:19 <andythenorth> is it handled for AI only, or in general?
20:50:44 <Terkhen> I have seen dependencies only in AIs, but I guess they are handled in general
20:50:53 <andythenorth> does that extend to newgrf window?
20:50:54 <Yexo> scenario's can have dependencies on grfs
20:50:59 <andythenorth> i.e. if foo.grf depends on bar.grf
20:51:02 <Yexo> no, just the online content window
20:51:17 <andythenorth> and there's no way for user to know about deps in game?
20:51:27 <andythenorth> apart from they get downloaded by content service
20:51:39 <Yexo> that is not something the content service should handle
20:51:52 <frosch123> there is some av8 extension set that pulls av8
20:51:53 <Yexo> for scenarios the user can see the grfs that are needed in the load dialog
20:52:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the grf can still use action B to tell the user
20:52:07 <Yexo> NewGRFs can disable themself if their dependency is not loaded
20:52:11 <andythenorth> so it's responsibility of newgrf? - fine by me
20:52:28 <Yexo> AIs will most likely just fail to compile/start if an AI library they need is not available
20:52:57 <Yexo> andythenorth: at runtime yes, but the content server needs to make sure that the dependencies are downloaded
20:57:42 * andythenorth wonders what's actually wrong with bananas code
21:00:59 <josepr83> %ithe content server needs to make sure that the dependencies are downloaded%i
21:01:12 <josepr83> is that hard to implement?
21:01:55 <planetmaker> it is implemented...
21:04:01 <josepr83> okay. So, when you download the grf/scens etc. via content download system, their deps will actually get downloaded, or just prompt the user?
21:04:18 <Yexo> try to select the av8 addon in the online content window
21:04:24 <Yexo> av8 will also get selected automatically
21:04:30 <Terkhen> josepr83: it is implemented, try it with some AI that uses libraries or that av8 addon :P
21:04:33 <Yexo> same happens if you select any AI that uses libraries
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21:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> something that is bad with ingame bananas handling: after updating a grf, i have to manually edit all presets, because those are set by filename, which is different, since it contains the version
21:06:41 <josepr83> So, preset handling should be done by the grf name string inside the file, rather than filename?
21:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> or after download finished, presets should automatically be updated
21:08:46 <josepr83> Or there should be an update presets option, so that the user can decide when to update.
21:08:55 * andythenorth wonders if rewriting bananas from scratch is tmwftlb
21:09:13 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what's so bad about the existing codebase?
21:09:21 <andythenorth> when I read it, I see nothing horrible
21:10:13 <TrueBrain> setting up the site won't be .. easy :) (so development is hard) This is the general problem with OpenTTD website atm
21:10:25 <TrueBrain> for the rest, the database design assumed an approach which is invalid
21:10:32 <TrueBrain> so it needs redesign, or at least a huge tuning
21:10:49 <andythenorth> so the issue isn't the views?
21:10:50 <TrueBrain> the code that handles file uploading fails a lot
21:11:05 <andythenorth> it has a *lot* of if-else :P
21:11:12 <TrueBrain> completely unreadable
21:12:15 <andythenorth> is it just un-pretty? Or actually flakey?
21:12:25 <TrueBrain> untracable mistakes :p
21:14:43 * andythenorth doesn't know what would be best
21:14:53 <andythenorth> - leave bananas alone - tmwftlb
21:15:05 <andythenorth> - rebuild 1:1 in new framework (not django)
21:15:15 <andythenorth> - rebuild 1:1 in django, but cleaner
21:15:27 <andythenorth> - rebuild entirely with redesigned features etc
21:15:32 <andythenorth> the last option is worst :P
21:18:45 <TrueBrain> I think second is best for OpenTTD as a whole
21:19:07 <andythenorth> so initially keep identical feature set, GUI etc
21:19:43 * andythenorth wonders if wordpress really would be best way to do it
21:20:07 <andythenorth> I am no wordpress fan, but it has achieved WIN
21:20:17 <TrueBrain> its asking for tons of exploits
21:20:46 <andythenorth> apparently WP 3 has solved that
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21:21:07 * andythenorth dislikes WP for numerous minor reasons
21:21:16 <TrueBrain> they have 'solved' all exploits?
21:21:29 <andythenorth> it has a massive developer base
21:21:33 <andythenorth> working on it all the time
21:21:37 <andythenorth> to add new exploits :P
21:21:42 <TrueBrain> and you also need to update so frequently :p
21:21:46 <TrueBrain> so no, I personally don't like that :)
21:22:30 <andythenorth> there is no other common framework apart from Drupal
21:22:34 <andythenorth> how about Drupal?
21:22:47 <andythenorth> common = many people who can hack at it
21:23:26 <andythenorth> it would mean finding someone who can code drupal :P
21:24:36 <frosch123> "django" is still the nicest name of the stuff you mentioned
21:25:02 * andythenorth wants to do it with pyramid
21:27:24 <josepr83> It’s small, documented, tested, extensible, fast, and friendly.
21:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> do we play buzzword-bingo?
21:28:13 <andythenorth> if you have a bingo car
21:28:29 <planetmaker> with buzzwords? always at hand
21:28:42 <planetmaker> much more fun in meetings though in the form of bullshit bingo
21:29:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i had one for election-day-bingo once
21:29:31 <planetmaker> I spent some lectures with creating such bingo cards :-P
21:30:08 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: would you recommend changing the mysql schema as well?
21:30:14 <andythenorth> or could that be left untouched?
21:30:22 <TrueBrain> I think you have to
21:30:26 <TrueBrain> to work with a few new requirements
21:30:50 <andythenorth> I would ignore new requirements initially
21:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> key requirement for a replacement framework: easy setup of a testing system
21:32:16 <andythenorth> testing the framework? or a dev environment?
21:32:33 <josepr83> Use the framework to test the framework?
21:32:39 <Yexo> <andythenorth> I would ignore new requirements initially <- that means you're going to write a new system that fails for exactly the same reasons the current system fails
21:32:50 <Yexo> it would not be designed for everything is has to handle
21:33:11 <andythenorth> Yexo: same argument could be said about FIRS port to nml :P
21:33:42 <andythenorth> changing framework + features is a headache
21:33:52 <josepr83> andythenorth: planetmaker is still here :P
21:34:07 <Eddi|zuHause> dev environment is where you write your code, test environment is where you run it
21:34:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so a staging server?
21:34:30 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you call it
21:34:37 <Yexo> andythenorth: the firs port from nfo to nml was not because nml supports something nfo does not
21:34:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think we mean same thing
21:34:45 <Yexo> it's to make maintenance in the future easier
21:35:01 <andythenorth> this is why I am confused
21:35:07 <andythenorth> what is the problem with bananas?
21:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something where i can type "make" and then i have the page on localhost:80
21:35:10 <Yexo> making the maintenance of bananas easier is not very useful as long as it doesn't support everything it has to
21:35:49 <andythenorth> in that case we're stuck yes / no?
21:35:59 <Yexo> andythenorth: it needs a more extensive web interface (something more like grfcrawler has), it needs a better way to specify dependencies
21:36:13 <Yexo> you need to be able to select a dependency on an older version
21:36:22 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: told you the list would grow fast :D
21:36:26 <andythenorth> sounds like a spec is needed :)
21:36:31 <andythenorth> I see the issue here
21:36:47 <andythenorth> can't extend current codebase because it's hairy
21:36:54 <planetmaker> it needs proper user management as well
21:37:02 <andythenorth> can't move to a new codebase
21:37:15 <planetmaker> one to multi linking of project to user and vice versa
21:37:34 <Yexo> andythenorth: it can be moved to a new codebase, but that should only be done if the new codebase has advantages over the current one
21:37:45 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so you have to start somewhere; a rewrite of current stuff might be an approach :)
21:38:17 <Yexo> moving from the current implementation to one based on pyramid is useless if that pyramid implementation has the same limitations as the current one
21:38:38 <andythenorth> it seems to be an unavoidable step in a migration
21:38:44 <Yexo> because every move has the potential to introduce more bugs
21:38:58 <andythenorth> which is why features shouldn't change
21:39:04 <Yexo> it could be a first step to code that, but only if afterwards that codebase is extended to implement some new features
21:39:12 <andythenorth> QA on something that is 1:1 same is just hard
21:39:17 <Yexo> only when that's done it would be useful to switch the live version imo
21:39:33 <andythenorth> QA on something that also adds features is insanely hard
21:39:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you wouldn't get to just call make
21:40:07 <andythenorth> but maybe three lines
21:40:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i meant apart from installing the dependencies
21:41:06 <andythenorth> you shouldn't have to do much of that hopefully :P
21:41:26 <andythenorth> although I don't know if mysql is easy to provide
21:43:35 <andythenorth> starting the server would be something like: ./bin/paster serve etc/paste.ini
21:44:41 * andythenorth will sleep on it and see what happens
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22:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember all commercial spots of the last 20 years
22:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the pictures do ring some bells, but i'm not really sure
22:09:53 <__ln__> it was in finnish, subtitled in german... which might be a bit exceptional on german tv, i suppose.
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22:12:35 <__ln__> anyway, i've been trying to locate that ad on youtube and other sources, but unsuccessfully
22:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> do you have a timeframe?
22:25:39 <__ln__> something like 1992..1995
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22:30:35 <__ln__> yeah, that's it, but the .ram merely points to some other pnm:// url and address, which has probably been down for years.
22:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> just a matter of the right search words ;)
22:32:14 <__ln__> perfect, that's the one, thank you
22:33:08 <__ln__> i apparently failed with my search words
22:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't seem to be the complete clip, though
22:37:45 <__ln__> yes, it starts in the middle of a sentence, and as far as i remember there was a second part where the guy says "i just remembered that .... blabla" and adds something
22:44:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't find another version, though
continue to next day ⏵
