IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-18
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01:38:08 <lstor> How do I iterate over an enum? EnumPropsT<T> seems to be for that purpose, but how do I increment? Grep-ing the code gives me the impression this is never ever done, but that seems odd. What am I missing?
01:55:29 <lstor> C++. OpenTTD source code
01:55:39 <Lakie> Its not directly possible in C++
01:56:03 <Lakie> You could start at the lowest and work to the highest (assuming continual)...
01:56:45 <lstor> I made it work using an int, and then converting it to the right enum using a switch, but that doesn't scale if another enum is added.
01:57:15 <lstor> How would you do that? op++() and op+=() don't work for enums
01:57:37 <lstor> I'm sorry if I'm being stupid now, it's been a while since I wrote C++
01:57:41 <Lakie> Set an enum as the lowest vaue and one as the heights?
01:58:32 * Lakie had a similar issue and ended up hardcoding it due to being uncontinous in their values....
01:59:26 <lstor> Okay, assume the following: for (Track t = TRACK_BEGIN; t != TRACK_END; ++t) { /* ... */ }
01:59:43 <lstor> ++t won't compile, so how would I iterate / step?
02:02:13 <lstor> Okay, thanks! I assumed that since implicit conversion didn't work, explicit casts wouldn't either.
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02:05:26 <lstor> glx: Even better. Thanks!
02:09:56 <glx> DECLARE_POSTFIX_INCREMENT(Track) <-- we defined only postfix increment ;)
02:11:48 <glx> TinyEnumT has both (and it's done in a different way)
02:42:13 <lstor> How can the test run and real run of a command execution differ? (i.e. the assert() in command.cpp:694 fails) What do they do differently?
02:42:35 <lstor> (What I'm trying to do is to make the 'convert rail'-button change from semaphores to electrical signals if control is pressed)
02:43:27 <lstor> I'm presuming I'm messing something up while calculating costs, but how does the test know that? If that indeed is the problem
02:45:37 <glx> test and exec should return the same cost
02:47:49 <lstor> Hmm. The assert() tests res.GetCost() == res2.GetCost() and res.Failed() == res2.Failed(), so that means (only) one of them claims to fail?
02:51:18 <glx> res is the test, res2 is the execution, so exec failed or returned a different cost
02:53:03 <lstor> Yes, but what do they differently? How can they differ? I mean, if I calculate the costs wrong in my code (if that is the problem), how come that's only reflected in exec and not test?
02:53:35 <Yexo> it can also be the other way
02:53:53 <Yexo> if you fail to check for the exec flag and you actually convert them during the test, the exec run won't have the costs added
02:54:00 <Yexo> or something like that, it's hard to say without a patch
02:55:07 <lstor> Yes, I didn't check for the exec flag
02:59:52 <Yexo> lstor: also don't check for ctrl in the actual command
03:00:08 <Yexo> do it in the code calling DoCommandP and add the status of ctrl as a bit in p1 or p2
03:01:23 <lstor> Yeah, it felt a little shady checking it in the command. Thanks again
03:03:37 * Lakie guesses OpenTTD doesn't sent the ctrl state in mp?
03:05:55 <Yexo> also in MP there can be a delay between starting the action (clicking with the mouse) and the actual execution of the command
03:07:34 <supermop> can anyone answer a nml question?
03:09:48 <supermop> so i have a thing that says, if a rail is RAIL, use switch A for depot graphics
03:10:20 <supermop> i want multiple railtypes to use depot A, though
03:10:58 <supermop> can i have that thing say if RAIL or 3RDR use A?
03:11:19 <Yexo> you can say "if RAIL, use A. if 3RDR, use A"
03:11:20 <supermop> or should I make a separate thing for each rail type
03:11:26 <Yexo> just copy the definition for each rail type
03:11:46 <Yexo> not really sure how what you're trying now though
03:12:03 <supermop> i have no idea what i am doing
03:12:24 <supermop> the other thing i was wondering was,
03:12:42 <supermop> can nml define custom foundations for certain buildings?
03:13:20 <Yexo> depends on the kind of building, but generally it should be possible
03:13:31 <Yexo> you might need to include the actual foundation graphics in your grf though
03:14:10 <supermop> i want my brick depots to use some brick foundations, and newer ones to use concrete
03:14:41 <supermop> i guess the next thing i have to do is instal some programs to make the nml into a grf
03:33:55 <supermop> or, is there any common label for NG?
03:46:18 <lstor> The test ret.GetCost() is 220, ret2.GetCost() is 55. The relevant function is pasted at http://codepad.org/XWINjElg -- any idea how I compute the costs wrong?
04:01:36 <supermop> does anyone want to look over my nml?
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04:34:32 <glx> lstor: and success status ?
04:35:54 <supermop> I cannot figure out what i am supposed to do with python here
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06:52:24 <Terkhen> lstor: for consistency, IMO the ctrl key in convert rail should allow you to use diagonal areas
06:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> ctrl+drag for signals makes autocomplete-along-rails
06:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> diagonal doesn't make sense, because you can do that without ctrl
07:02:40 <__ln__> ah, it's still winter, -23°C
07:05:11 <planetmaker> but if the celsius scale had an absolute zero, one could say we have 1/10th of that here
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07:29:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's snowing here
07:30:31 <planetmaker> there's an easy way to find out: go out of your house. stand there for 5 minutes. If your hair got a lot more white you either aged quickly or it's snowing. The latter is reversible
07:31:35 <Rubidium> or someone threw out a bucket of white paint
07:32:28 <planetmaker> you find out which by the time the reversal-process takes ;-)
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07:42:40 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i know how long the reversal process would take, if i were in the unreversable case?
07:49:13 <planetmaker> by looking up how long the reversible process usually takes :-P
08:17:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but there's a flaw: if my hair was already white before going out, it wouldn't get any whiter, but yet it still could be snowing. so you get a false negative
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08:36:46 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, corner case ;-)
08:37:13 <planetmaker> 1 prime, 3 prime, 5 prime, 7 prime, 9 measure error, 11 prime, 13 prime... --> all odd numbers are prime
08:37:36 <planetmaker> but of course two is the only true odd prime ;-)
08:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause> more interesting are numbers that are both prime and square .p
08:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... an eye fell off there
08:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> · <-- add this ;)
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09:05:11 <planetmaker> :-) the amount of square primes and even primes should be about the same ;-)
09:08:05 <Eddi|zuHause> err... not really
09:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (1 is considered not prime by any sensible definition)
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09:09:56 <planetmaker> hm, right. Two divisors
09:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> because 1 has an inverse element, it makes considering it a prime unweildy if you extend it to more than natural numbers
09:16:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it boils down to the same thing as considering the field where 0==1, in practically any proposition about primes/fields you have to exclude it ("any prime > 1" or "any field where 0!=1")
09:17:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's better to generally exclude it in the first place
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10:22:52 <dihedral> was looking for juniper alternatives... this looks awesome
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10:52:03 <Ammler> dihedral: used that with XenServer
10:52:35 <dihedral> to me it looks better than a juniper
10:53:34 <Ammler> didn't compare with others, was my first and only choice, did its job :-)
10:54:18 <Ammler> now I do the routing with the hypervisor
10:55:15 <dihedral> yeah - cannot do that in the environment we have - at least not with the hosted servers
10:55:25 <dihedral> possibly on the internal esx server
10:55:52 <dihedral> i am considering getting one extra to place at Hetzner, get a /24 subnet and route it through :-D
10:56:11 <dihedral> or some other provider, depending on cost and latency
10:56:14 <Ammler> yeah, if you plan to setup a vm just for Routing/NAT etc., it is a nice distro
10:56:43 <dihedral> it would not be a vm for that i think, it would probably be one of the appliances
10:56:56 <dihedral> seeing as we close to only have dell hardware it would fit in quite well too
10:57:07 <dihedral> at least for the hosted servers
11:00:20 <Ammler> well, most appliances run virtual don't they?
11:05:03 <peter1138> My kettle is quite real.
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12:18:30 <roboboy> where should I go looking for code to do with mouse cursor in game?
12:21:20 <Noldo> window.ccp has a lot of hits for "cursor"
12:25:15 <roboboy> I wonder if a tutorial could be written by moving the mouse to the coordinates of a buton
12:25:47 <roboboy> that wouldn't work for clicking tiles
12:26:21 <roboboy> it might if the tutorials used a hardcoded seed that they could cope with
12:26:39 <Ammler> roboboy: or watch the docommands
12:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> so... post-branching 1.1, it's time to include experimental big features... anyone up for it? :)
12:27:16 <roboboy> so it could always use hardcoded tileids or coordinates
12:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking about heightlevels or cargodist ;)
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12:29:36 <Yexo> heightlevels still needs to be _properly_ split in several smaller patches and the author doesn't seem interested in that
12:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> last time i looked at that patch, i tried to dissect (trunk) tgp.cpp, but didn't really get what was going on...
12:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there's some weird clamping occuring, but it's nowhere done explicitly
12:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause> in trunk it's visible that the highest generated level is one level below the highest possible level
12:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in the heightlevel patch i have seen clamping to something like 145 levels, instead of 255 possible
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12:41:18 <Ammler> dihedral: those appliances do have software/os installed already, don't they?
12:46:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... what am i doing wrong? i put '#include "debug.h"' into the file, and "DEBUG(map, 3, "blah");" into the function, but i'm getting weird compilation errors
12:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... works if i put it after stdafx.h... smells like a missing include
12:51:13 <dihedral> Ammler, no, they do not. they are based on standard x86 arch and you can do with them what you like
12:51:25 <dihedral> commonly used for firewall / gateway stuff
12:53:10 <Ammler> I thought Appliance is based on Application :-)
12:56:09 <Ammler> looks like there are 2 types of appliances: computer and software, I had software appliance in mind
13:03:28 <dihedral> your dsl router is considered an appliance :-P
13:03:41 <Belugas> #ONE LAST KISS GOODBYE
13:04:19 <Belugas> tea party - psychopomp
13:04:30 * Belugas goes away to the office
13:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the quickest way to delete the last character of a string?
13:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause> was thinking about "str[strlen(str)]='\0';", is that valid?
13:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause> or missing a -1?
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13:12:33 <Ammler> dihedral: yes, because there is already software on it :-)
13:13:46 <dihedral> so, if you write software and want to sell it as an appliance - that is what some clients do - buy hardware from nexcom and thelike
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13:40:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the output of tgp.cpp doesn't fully conform to the actual map visible afterwards
13:41:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and my screen is not wide enough :(
13:43:22 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, FixSlopes() ?
13:59:14 <Eddi|zuHause> who the hell buys a 82" monitor that has "only" Full-HD resolution?
13:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: i'd rather buy 16 20" monitors that each have full-hd resolution?
14:01:17 <planetmaker> and which graphics card would fill them?
14:01:53 <Eddi|zuHause> what has quad-sli been invented for? :p
14:01:54 <planetmaker> and how ugly do the many screen borders in between look like, if you want to use it as tv monitor for --- whatever presentation / video presentation or whatever?
14:02:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if you build a custom chassis, there aren't a lot of borders inbetween left...
14:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of marketing cheating is this?
14:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> - Reaktionszeit 5ms typisch
14:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> - Reaktionszeit gray-to-gray 3ms
14:11:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the real value here? and what effect does it have?
14:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the difference between a monitor for 300€ and one for 1000€ if both are roughly the same size and have roughly the same values given?
14:14:55 <Terkhen> either one of them is overpriced, the other one has some "hidden" flaw or both
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14:57:30 <xiong> I hope this is not a stupid question: If a FIRS primary industry threatened to close and I delivered cargo to it within 30 days. It closed *anyway*. Why?
14:59:22 <xiong> More to the point, once an industry -- of any type -- threatens to close, is there any point in trying to save it?
15:00:33 <Ammler> xiong: known bugs afaik
15:01:46 <xiong> Ammler, Erm, so, is that an invariant bug and attempting the save pointless? Or an erratic bug and I might get lucky?
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15:03:08 <xiong> I usually allow closing industries to fail, on the theory that I can fund/prospect another if I need it. But I particularly wanted this Iron Mine, right where it was. Or at least, I thought I did.
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15:09:20 <xiong> ... Has a really major FIRS update come out?
15:11:00 <DanMacK> depends what you mean by "major"
15:11:24 <DanMacK> The most ercent version is incompatible w/past savegames, I consider that "major...
15:11:47 <xiong> Well. People tend to be... a little funny, I think, when incrementing version numbers. Everyone has a different opinion.
15:12:17 <xiong> I now see a "Smithy Forge" and an "Iron Works". This isn't an incremental change, methinks.
15:15:47 <Aziroshin> Also depends on the project. If a project introduces savegame-incompatibilities with every patch, as that is the case sometimes with commercial games, things may be viewed in a different light.
15:16:58 <xiong> Well. Is there any room for a complete change of subject?
15:17:46 <xiong> I'm not a software guy, a lot of this stuff is beyond me. I get woozy just looking through bug reports. But it is clear to me that many of these FIRS "bugs" are just graphics that need to be drawn.
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15:25:07 <DanMacK> Yeah, that covers alot of them
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15:26:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a tiger on my desk and he's stepping on my spacebar
15:26:13 <xiong> Okay, well, please excuse me if I seem to be rude; it's not my intent. But why do you guys have such a hard time coding up graphics drawn by other people? Why must you draw all your own? I mean, I have a lot of skills but I know my strengths.
15:27:46 <Ammler> xiong: firs is still in development, so every release should be seen as major release :-)
15:28:24 <Ammler> do only report bugs, if you use latest or try nightly
15:28:26 <xiong> I'm not going to worry about it, Ammler. It's out of my paygrade. I'm just glad progress is being made.
15:28:34 * Terkhen has never coded anything he drew
15:28:52 * Eddi|zuHause has never drawn anything he coded
15:29:59 * DanMacK is just an artist, and is contributing to FIRS
15:30:25 <xiong> Well, since I joined this chan and started playing, I've tried to contribute in the best way I can. I've offered to draw graphics to order. I've asked others to code graphics I've drawn. All I hear, though, is "Why don't you write XYZ patch?" I don't mean any offense; I just don't understand.
15:30:41 <DanMacK> Andy was doing most of the drawign and coding for awhile, I jsut joined recently.
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15:31:25 <DanMacK> *joined FIRS recently
15:32:03 <DanMacK> You're a member on the forums right?
15:32:12 <xiong> Besides wiki illustrations? Ingame graphics? I drew bigsig. Gathered a stunning lack of interest.
15:33:08 <xiong> I admit, I was upset about it at the time. Now, I'm just puzzled.
15:33:59 <xiong> Um, yes, xiong here, xiong there. Most places xiong. It's not just a weird handle; it's a form of my name.
15:34:36 <DanMacK> It's an interesting concept and makes perfect sense. Personally, that particular grf isn't something I would use.
15:35:16 <xiong> Most people wouldn't. It's ugly, intentionally so. Everything is sacrificed to reveal as much as possible about the signal to the player.
15:35:23 <DanMacK> Haven't ahd the opportunity yet anyway. There are alot of projects out there that don't garner alot of interest
15:36:04 <DanMacK> 's great if you're doing a signallign simulation or demo or trying different concepts
15:36:41 <DanMacK> I've ahd a couple of projects that kind of fizzled due to lack of interest, it happens
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15:37:28 <xiong> Well, pull at it the other way. For months now, I've been telling people in here that I'm a professional graphic artist with years of experience, some of it specifically drawing tiny little pixel stuff; and I've demonstrated, I hope, that I at least know what I'm doing, even if my idea sucks.
15:38:11 <DanMacK> if they need graphics?
15:38:26 <xiong> I say this every so often, right here in chan.
15:39:10 <DanMacK> personally, from a set designer's point of view, such as the Canadian set and the North American Renewal set, I try and keep a similar style. Alot of set designers are reluctant to bring in other artists
15:39:55 <xiong> I'm not a fanatic and yes, I do have other things to do with my time. I'm not pushing hard; it just puzzles me that nobody wants my help, doing what I *can* do. While whenever I talk about something I see, I'm told to fix it myself.
15:40:20 <DanMacK> graphicswise, that's what gets me into trouble
15:40:46 <DanMacK> I see something that needs doing, I suggest it, I'm told to draw it myself, I do, and end up contributing alot more along the way :P
15:41:25 <xiong> Not what I meant. Nobody has told me or asked me to draw anything. Instead, I've been asked to write computer code, which I can do in a sort of rudimentary fashion at best.
15:41:58 <DanMacK> hmmm, can't see that if it'
15:42:14 <xiong> I understand the point about a guy who starts to draw a set of stuff and wants not to bring in other hands that may not share the same style.
15:43:18 <xiong> But then, why start to draw it in the first place? Why not ask a graphically skilled person to do all the drawing? Or do what pros do, and set design standards so that multiple artists can work together on a project set?
15:43:45 <DanMacK> That's up to the individual set designer
15:44:12 <DanMacK> For me, I know a few people that can code
15:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (people are just quickly annoyed by his attitude and appearance, has nothing to do with drawing style or anything)
15:44:28 <DanMacK> I don't touch the stuff, just confuses me
15:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (and he still has me on ignore list)
15:44:53 <xiong> I'm muddling my points, I'm afraid. I've raised issues that have nothing to do with graphics; I just see weaknesses in operation. When I raise these observations, I get "you patch it, then".
15:45:17 <xiong> Yah well, same here. I write code, yes, but it's very small stuff.
15:46:22 <xiong> Before I got into graphic design, I was a hardware engineer. I learned enough about software to make the blinky lights come on. Lately, I've been studying up. But I'm years away from being able to contribute to a complex project.
15:46:26 <DanMacK> gamewise, if there's something that others haven't noticed or think is TMWFTLB, yeah, you'll probably be told to fix it yourself
15:47:11 <DanMacK> or find someone that's willing to patch it
15:47:40 <xiong> Yes, well, I'd find it more helpful if you would say, "That's too much trouble" or "I don't see a need". I tend to interpret people literally.
15:48:56 <xiong> When I mention a thought here, that's what I'm trying to do: generate some interest in the thought.
15:50:55 <xiong> I dunno, man. I see two dozen bugs that amount to "slap some snow on existing graphics" and I wonder who, with any skills at all, cannot be allowed to do that.
15:51:06 <Belugas> mmh... what is the deal with migrating ottd in HTML5 ?
15:51:12 <Belugas> the new flavor of the day?
15:51:15 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: is that written as a serious offer? :D
15:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i'd call it "satire" :p
15:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: context is the german defense minister (Theodor zu Guttenberg), who is said to have plagiarized his doctorial thesis.
15:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: this keyboard is "ergonomically optimized" for copy-and-paste :p
15:53:06 <xiong> Another change in subject: I'm currently gestating a FIRS walkthrough. I have been around the FIRS site and get the feeling that really in-depth documentation is being left undone because everything may or may not change. Yes? No?
15:53:22 <xiong> Is there any sort of timeline for 1.0?
15:55:37 <DanMacK> No real timeline. I'm just a graphics lackey, Andy's the one you'd need to ask for that
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15:56:19 <DanMacK> Regarding the snow, it's not a matter of who "can" do it, it's more a matter of who "wants" to do it
15:56:34 <supermop> Our snow just melted
15:56:42 <supermop> it's going to be 60 today
15:57:16 <DanMacK> it's just like construction stages, and why FIRS has none ATM - they're a pain in the ass
15:57:19 <supermop> actully i once went to a Finish sauna
15:58:21 <supermop> they are not legally allowed to get nearly that hot in the US,
15:58:23 <DanMacK> xiong, if you want to do snow sprites, mention it in the thread
15:59:11 <DanMacK> I'm sure Andy would be glad to send the sprites
16:05:16 <xiong> I don't particularly want to do snow. I'm willing to do snow. I'd like to help. Maybe I can work my way up from snow.
16:09:28 <DanMacK> Doesn't ahve to be snow, it's just a suggestion because neither Andy or myself particularly want to do them
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18:20:05 <SmatZ> hmm my ISP is giving up and the majority ISP is taking over its customers
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18:25:51 <SmatZ> xiong: bikes don't have numbers... at least here :p
18:28:34 <SmatZ> license plates and similiar numbers
18:28:53 <SmatZ> well... yeah, there are some numbers, but not "highly visible"
18:28:56 <peter1138> not pedal bicycles though
18:29:14 <SmatZ> I am sorry for my English :)
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18:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf? an engine number like in the picture would be like 2 pixels in openttd... what exactly does he want?
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18:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i presume one could hijack the loading indicators to implement a "floating" unit number above the vehicle
18:37:27 <DanMacK> That's what I'm thinking he's meaining
18:37:38 <DanMacK> but would that not blow the CPU usage?
18:37:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
18:38:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicles have to be redrawn anyway, so a slightly bigger area to redraw shouldn't hurt
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18:39:06 <DanMacK> It makes sense, but I don't think I'd use it
18:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you know what? i should write "do the patch yourself" :p
18:39:15 <Alberth> not missing an 'l' IchGuckLive ?
18:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "gucken" or "kucken" means "to watch"
18:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> g and k varies on dialect
18:40:38 <IchGuckLive> im in the Mountan Game area arend there subvention ?
18:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> IchGuckLive: subsidies should be in every game mode
18:41:30 <IchGuckLive> im beond July and no one appears
18:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> bad luck, i presume ;)
18:43:11 <IchGuckLive> so the money comes very slow to get a better game running
18:43:40 <IchGuckLive> in mountain game its not good to drive with low Horse power
18:43:47 <Alberth> nothing a cheat could not fix if you are in a hurry :)
18:45:33 <IchGuckLive> no cheets thats boring if you sudenly got mony as a milioneer and build in pause mode thats so boaring no action
18:45:52 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22095 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:52 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:52 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 11 changes by elleryq
18:45:52 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: danish - 40 changes by beruic
18:45:52 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 41 changes by Luis_Mizuchiro
18:45:54 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:45:54 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: swedish - 22 changes by LordDaimos
18:46:08 *** Wolfsherz has joined #openttd
18:47:33 <IchGuckLive> brazilian_portuguese carneval ahead lots of nacked meat
18:48:58 *** IchGuckLive has left #openttd
19:12:15 *** JOHN-SHEPARD has joined #openttd
19:23:20 *** Wilberforce is now known as AD
19:35:17 <wargh> How come that opcode can't be changed during a game? Would the AI crash or something?
19:55:21 *** rhaeder has joined #openttd
20:01:45 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
20:07:42 <andythenorth> the change that made acceleration slower - is that in 1.0.x, or is that a 1.1.x thing?
20:10:04 <andythenorth> are HEQS trams unfairly good?
20:13:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i think they're fairly cheap compared to similarly sized trains
20:13:16 <Eddi|zuHause> especially since refitting doesn't cost anything
20:14:24 <Eddi|zuHause> refit cost is a complicated problem, the feature is underdeveloped
20:14:43 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r22096 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Move openttd getopt implementation to its own file.
20:15:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: leave it as is
20:15:29 <andythenorth> just imposes work on newgrf authors if the spec is fixed :P
20:15:30 <Alberth> the only problem with zero cost refitting imho is that you don't get feedback that it is done
20:15:35 <andythenorth> there are bigger fish to fry
20:20:41 <wargh> Although, on second thought, he ain't a fish.
20:23:23 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r22097 /trunk/src/misc/ (getoptdata.cpp getoptdata.h): -Fix (r22096): Add files before commit.
20:26:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: "shall we start with a meta-question?"
20:26:18 <andythenorth> was that the meta question
20:26:25 <andythenorth> or is that a meta-meta-question?
20:27:01 <andythenorth> and when I ask you if that's a meta-meta-question....is that a meta-meta-meta-question?
20:28:45 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r22098 /trunk/src/ (misc/getoptdata.cpp misc/getoptdata.h openttd.cpp): -Codechange: Have an array of option data, use it in the option parsing routine. Adapt openttd option processing too.
20:29:53 <Alberth> they are all meta questions
20:33:30 <Alberth> a meta-meta-question is also a meta meta-question
20:34:10 <Alberth> ie what the non-meta question is about, is not relevant
20:34:31 * andythenorth might be being silly
20:34:58 * andythenorth has stayed up late writing about metadata this week
20:35:00 *** rhaeder1 has joined #openttd
20:35:11 * andythenorth has a frazzled brain
20:35:56 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22099 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
20:35:56 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
20:35:56 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove invalid keycodes when reading hotkeys.cfg [FS#4510] (r22094)
20:35:56 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: - Fix: The server list did not get sorted with one item in it, so the 'position in the list' variable was never updated causing problems when using the keyboard shortcuts for scrolling [FS#4514] (r22093)
20:35:58 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: - Fix: When deleting towns, only relocate objects during DC_EXEC (r22087)
20:38:17 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22100 /branches/1.1/src/lang/ (9 files): [1.1] -Backport from trunk: language updates
20:51:20 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r22101 /trunk/src/misc/getoptdata.cpp: -Codechange (r22098): Unify a bit of code.
20:52:04 * andythenorth should write some code
20:52:55 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r22102 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Also use the getopt function in strgen.
20:53:47 <Alberth> only 2 months late :p
21:02:00 <Alberth> with a frazzled brain? doesn't sound like a good plan
21:05:41 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22103 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare: for 1.1.0-RC1
21:10:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22104 /tags/1.1.0-RC1/: -Release: 1.1.0-RC1
21:14:52 *** supermop has joined #openttd
21:16:37 <planetmaker> hm, I'm coming straight for the release :-)
21:23:06 <andythenorth> is station bouys out of the question?
21:24:30 <planetmaker> if there are newgrf ports, drawing a newgrf station in the shape of a buoy also would work
21:24:43 <Rubidium> we need some features to remain TTDPatch only, otherwise nobody will play TTDPatch anymore
21:24:44 <planetmaker> buoys are waypoints conceptually
21:25:15 <andythenorth> newgrf ports is kind of stuck?
21:25:24 <planetmaker> not even started I think ;-)
21:25:36 <Rubidium> lots of stuff is kind of stuck
21:25:47 * andythenorth wonders if the PHP approach might be better sometimes
21:26:00 <andythenorth> keep the users happy
21:26:04 <Rubidium> like I'm not quite sure whether cargodist does conceptually the right thing
21:26:09 <planetmaker> that only works when you have a very modular thing
21:26:33 <andythenorth> "it's insecure and broken, but it does what people need"
21:26:47 <planetmaker> cargodEst sounds to me the conceptually better concept...
21:27:03 <Alberth> andythenorth: you should described a patch pack :)
21:27:27 <andythenorth> I can't provide newgrfs for a patch pack
21:29:34 <planetmaker> supermop: re installing ply and PLI: both packages should come with a setup.py. Just run those scripts and those packages should install themselves. Basically the same you subsequently then need to do for NML itself
21:30:13 <planetmaker> it's sad that windows has no sensible package manager.
21:31:11 <Terkhen> but if it did I doubt it would have packages like ply and pil
21:31:45 <planetmaker> not? If there was a common format like rpm which then double-clicked would launch the installer?
21:32:07 <Alberth> planetmaker: just add a random linux distro as requirement too :p
21:32:20 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I don't think MS would follow that approach
21:32:31 <planetmaker> Terkhen: obviously they don't
21:32:44 <Terkhen> I mean, in the case that they did some kind of package manager :P
21:32:52 <planetmaker> But... it might fit quite well. But I don't need to convince anyone here :-)
21:33:11 <JOHN-SHEPARD> i have a question related to windows
21:33:18 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
21:33:19 <Terkhen> I don't really mind; I finally managed to get wine running properly
21:33:21 <JOHN-SHEPARD> you know when you leave your mouse on a link on your web browser
21:33:29 <JOHN-SHEPARD> there is a box information that pops up
21:33:33 <JOHN-SHEPARD> how is that box called?
21:33:41 <planetmaker> mouse-over or tooltip
21:33:49 <JOHN-SHEPARD> well in windows 7
21:33:49 <Alberth> JOHN-SHEPARD: your windows problem is trivially solved by installing ubuntu
21:34:05 <JOHN-SHEPARD> yes or i could just go back to windows xp but i would rather not
21:34:07 <JOHN-SHEPARD> but the problem is
21:34:17 <JOHN-SHEPARD> the tool tips just disappear half a second after they appear
21:34:18 * planetmaker is concerned about the noice level
21:34:34 <JOHN-SHEPARD> that's the most annoying thing ever
21:34:48 <planetmaker> you paid M$ for it - so they should have an answer
21:35:08 <JOHN-SHEPARD> i didn't really pay i have access to it for free with the MSDNA accords with the school
21:35:51 <Terkhen> so as soon as I finish my project I'll use only linux
21:36:42 * Alberth is afraid john didn't hear his solution.
21:38:18 <JOHN-SHEPARD> should i just buy a mac they say it just works their is no virus they say
21:38:38 <JOHN-SHEPARD> in fact even teachers say "you should install linux"
21:38:57 <andythenorth> JOHN-SHEPARD: I can confirm that Apple also normally ship a functioning caps-lock key
21:39:02 <andythenorth> which might be of use to you :P
21:39:09 <andythenorth> it even has a small light in it
21:39:13 <andythenorth> so you know when it's on :D
21:39:27 <andythenorth> you should buy a mac
21:39:35 <andythenorth> that little LED is worth the extra
21:39:39 <Terkhen> will it have lots of lights?
21:39:48 <JOHN-SHEPARD> mac will be the light to shine your pitiful macless life
21:40:31 <andythenorth> there is something wrong in ship code, or FISH wrt to checking speed is 0
21:40:49 <Terkhen> can't I buy a normal computer and buy a light with the money I save?
21:41:12 <Terkhen> andythenorth: does it happens in 1.0.5 too? I changed the ship code a bit
21:41:23 <Terkhen> but that was a few months ago
21:43:34 <andythenorth> it happens in 1.0.5
21:43:38 <andythenorth> it's reproducible
21:44:19 <andythenorth> stop a FISH ship, then start it. The newgrf doesn't update the graphics accordingly until about 4mph
21:44:23 <andythenorth> this could well be a big in FISH
21:44:36 <andythenorth> but looks like a lag in updating display
21:44:53 <Prof_Frink> Or have you got bigger FISH to fry?
21:44:56 <andythenorth> similar problem with breakdowns
21:45:18 <Terkhen> hmm... it's something based on ship speed I guess
21:45:52 <Terkhen> what ship should I check?
21:46:41 <Alberth> Terkhen: yes you can buy a computer, a light and save money. And even better, you can decide how and what to install
21:47:01 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22105 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix: crash when copying an orderlist to a vehicle that already had orders
21:50:14 <andythenorth> Terkhen: any of them
21:54:58 * andythenorth has a new candidate for most boring nfo task
21:55:11 <krinn> i think my ai (not finish!) is enough mature to be test by someone and i've read you have a live server that could do the work for me ?
21:55:41 <planetmaker> krinn: release it on bananas and make a thread in the NoAI subforum
21:55:48 <planetmaker> No better way to get it tested
21:56:05 <krinn> not really enough mature for mass audience
21:56:09 <planetmaker> and no, we don't have servers which test AIs
21:56:30 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the water "trail" (I'm not sure if that is the correct word) does not appear until the ship has been moving for a bit, right?
21:56:38 <planetmaker> at least I'm not aware of any such facility
21:56:40 <Rubidium> you just have to poke the right people at TU Delft ;)
21:57:06 <planetmaker> krinn: but the "public" is what will get you tested it thoroughly. And corner cases
21:57:11 <andythenorth> Terkhen: and also, if a ship breaks down, it continues showing the moving sprite
21:57:18 <planetmaker> In any case, you'll "need" to publish it in the NoAI subforum
21:57:20 <andythenorth> even though speed is reported as 0
21:57:32 <planetmaker> There you'll have the audience which feel like also running 'experimental' AIs
21:57:51 <krinn> planetmaker, it's enough stable to get more test, but i won't disapointed people with it
21:57:52 <Terkhen> but if you stop the ship the graphic change is instant
21:58:43 <planetmaker> krinn: there's no 'bug free' and no 'done'
21:59:00 <krinn> lol but "it's shit" exist :)
21:59:12 <planetmaker> don't be shy to upload it to bananas. It's also - IMHO - a curtosy to the people who want to test it. It makes it easy
21:59:29 <Yexo> krinn: at least upload it to the forum
21:59:30 <Terkhen> krinn: label it as beta or taster :)
21:59:44 <Yexo> that's a (very) limited audience already compared to uploading it to bananas
22:00:03 <krinn> i'll try the forum test first, i don't want all people grab it easy thru banana and get flames
22:00:35 <Terkhen> andythenorth: to me it looks like an alien language :P
22:00:38 <Terkhen> but I guess it's a callback that checks the ship speed
22:01:26 <andythenorth> it's just checking a var :)
22:01:46 <andythenorth> it's basically an if statement
22:01:49 <Terkhen> hmm... let's see how it is handled in OpenTTD code
22:02:16 <planetmaker> krinn: you won't get flames, I'm quite sure. And even if... if labeled as 'taster' or 'beta' - those people could have known
22:03:22 <planetmaker> Just to speak from my experience with various newgrfs: if it's in the forums only - you get maybe the literal hand full of people who try things, only on the very first posting you might get 3 hand full.
22:03:38 <planetmaker> If you put it on bananas - you get dozens
22:03:55 <planetmaker> note: not everyone who tests it reports back. Rather the minority
22:04:25 <krinn> i'll try the forum test first
22:04:45 <krinn> i prefer small audience that will do effort to download & install the file knowing what they do
22:06:29 <andythenorth> the bigger audience on bananas isn't worth much for a first release
22:06:39 <andythenorth> there's no easy feedback mechanism
22:06:52 <andythenorth> and there's no way for them to get to readme or anything
22:07:08 <andythenorth> so mostly they'll play it, think 'this is a bit lame' and never try it again
22:07:17 <andythenorth> is my guess about first releases in general
22:08:05 <planetmaker> though most people download everything
22:08:06 <krinn> i've also disable some transport the ai should handle in order to finish others ones before... so not fully functional, that's why i'm not really hot to push that to banana
22:09:44 * andythenorth offers free advice to newgrf authors: don't make vehicles that change size
22:09:49 <andythenorth> the offsets are a PITA
22:11:54 <planetmaker> you mean 'change size' as in 'another time than during refit'?
22:12:08 <andythenorth> log raft specifically
22:12:55 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the code for checking the variable itself is shared by all vehicle types so I don't think the problem is there
22:13:03 <Terkhen> probably Ship::GetImage is not being called frequently enough
22:13:14 <andythenorth> that would be very plausible
22:13:19 <Terkhen> do code similar to that one works for other vehicle types?
22:13:49 <Terkhen> I already found cases of CB36 not being evaluated enough (or being evaluated too much) in ships
22:14:16 <Terkhen> but it is useful to know which vehicle type is doing it right before adding stuff :)
22:14:23 <supermop> Hey, planetmaker, I was helping a customer for a bit
22:14:45 <planetmaker> no worries. That's what highlights and logs are for :-)
22:14:55 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I don't have any other cases for vehicles that I can think of easily
22:15:01 <supermop> how do i run the setup.py?
22:15:15 <planetmaker> it's a python script
22:15:20 <Yexo> "python setup.py install"
22:15:24 <Terkhen> andythenorth: no problem
22:15:28 <planetmaker> python setup.py install
22:15:40 <Terkhen> it seems that all vehicle types call this function in the same places
22:15:48 <supermop> i type that line into python and hit enter?
22:16:03 <planetmaker> into the windows cmd
22:16:04 <Terkhen> except, of course, trains
22:16:08 <Alberth> python setup.py install
22:16:58 <planetmaker> supermop: I'd be _VERY_ greatful, if you could document well, where you stumbled and what advice you needed
22:17:05 <planetmaker> in getting this thing running
22:17:30 <supermop> well, I have so little experience with programming, that everything is a struggle for me
22:17:46 <planetmaker> it's kinda hard for me... for I neither have windows and I have it already installed successfully ;-)
22:18:00 <planetmaker> supermop: that's then ideal :-)
22:18:09 <planetmaker> I want an idiots guide to setting up NML ;-)
22:18:17 <supermop> but i can make some notes as to how the documentation could have been more helpful
22:18:36 <Yexo> that would be nice, thanks :)
22:18:40 <planetmaker> that'd be really appreciated :-)
22:19:03 * Yexo is going to test cxfreeze in a clean vm
22:19:15 <Yexo> that might also solve most problems
22:22:14 <supermop> so can nml now do everything that nfo can?
22:22:44 <supermop> ie help me avoid the huge action 2 chain i need to make in my other grf?
22:23:01 <supermop> for smart fences on rail yard tiles
22:23:16 <planetmaker> but it makes the action2 chains at least easier readable and can make them shorter, too
22:23:37 <planetmaker> if your other grf is stations... they're somewhat not entirely implemented in NML
22:23:52 <supermop> are rail fences part of rail sets, or just base graphics?
22:23:57 <planetmaker> except if you draw airports ;-)
22:24:06 <planetmaker> they can be both, supermop
22:24:15 <supermop> and does a rail tile remember when it is built?
22:24:25 <planetmaker> not at all. And not planned either
22:24:51 <supermop> so it is not possible to vary rail fences by date
22:25:32 <supermop> i have drawn some chain link fences I really like, but they would look absurd in 1830s
22:25:40 <planetmaker> but it'd change everywhere
22:26:02 <supermop> gradually, or all at once?
22:26:10 <planetmaker> supermop: look at SwedishRails level crossings
22:26:23 <planetmaker> They change from old to modern over 15 years.
22:26:31 <planetmaker> 1/4 of all tiles at once every 5 years
22:26:43 <planetmaker> I use the 2 random bits which the tiles have to not have ALL change at once
22:27:03 <supermop> not every fence gets updates instantaneously on dec. 31 1950
22:27:28 <planetmaker> well. they would.
22:27:35 <planetmaker> Or 1/4th of all fences
22:27:36 <supermop> ok, later I might ask you some more in depth questions about that
22:28:10 <planetmaker> the ser code is freely available under GPL v2. So you're free to re-use it under those terms
22:29:07 <planetmaker> it might also be a nice reference when you write a railtypes grf ;-)
22:29:26 <planetmaker> and it was one of my motivations to write it actually
22:29:48 * andythenorth has done 1 set of log raft offsets
22:40:51 <Belugas> WEEEEEEK EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22:41:19 <Prof_Frink> Indeed. 9 day weekend.
22:42:58 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:47:16 <krinn> i suppose you don't work on the WE belugas ?
23:04:40 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
23:14:33 <krinn> ok i bundle it, hope it won't crash too much :)
23:32:43 <supermop> I am still at work for 30 more minutes
23:33:34 <supermop> i just sent that link to myself so i will be able to try it out when i get home
23:33:54 <Yexo> I've also posted in in the forum in the nml-topic, so you can find it back there too
23:36:09 <supermop> do you think it would be worth re-writing my othe grf in nml now?
23:36:28 <supermop> it is over 1000 sprites, so it might be a lot of work
23:36:37 <Yexo> depends on how big it is / how many comments are in your nfo
23:36:55 <Yexo> also depends on how well you can read that nfo
23:36:56 <supermop> i have a few comments to myself in there
23:37:10 <supermop> most of what i have written is stuff i understand
23:38:42 <supermop> i never learned how to use nforenum though, so it is a pain to adjust things
23:40:48 <Yexo> you're editing an nfo file with over 1000 sprites without nforenum?
23:41:18 <Yexo> just run "nforenum filename.nfo"
23:41:27 <Yexo> basically just like you run grfcodec
23:48:05 <wargh> Is there any way to make vehicles that are feeders get a share of the income? I don't like getting the negative income for them every year (but I still want the option for the warning checked in case something happens to my other routes). The feeder system percentage is set to 75% in options. But my feeders don't get any share.
23:48:26 <Yexo> what kind of orders do you use?
23:48:32 <Yexo> use transfer instead of unload if you use that now
continue to next day ⏵