IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-05
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00:00:22 <rieksts> Hi, is there any way to turn off messages about vehicles becoming old, while keeping other usefull messages on?
00:02:42 <Belugas> I'M GOING FUCKING HOME FUCKING NOW!
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00:04:16 <z-MaTRiX> either turn off at the messages or delete from mthe source and recompile
00:05:14 <z-MaTRiX> there is also a setting vehicles never expire i remember
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00:06:52 <__ln__> beware, the last time the US started a war on Canada because of the word 'fuck', as we all remember from the documentary.
00:10:34 <z-MaTRiX> haha Belugas that is a reason to go home in, or next to the laboratory
00:11:23 <z-MaTRiX> nothing lik 10 seconds to go home ;>
00:12:45 <z-MaTRiX> latest openttdsvn build took real 3m26.444s user 2m25.944s sys 0m21.179s hmmm ;>
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03:10:39 <rieksts> z-MaTRiX: the vehicles never expire option is on. I think this is nothing but an onnoyance if breakdowns are disabled. There should be an option to turn old vehicle messages off, i cant elieve that i am the only one who finds this annoying.
03:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> rieksts: you can turn off all vehicle messages
03:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> in the news settings
03:17:38 <rieksts> yes, but as I said earlier i would like to keep the usefull ones
03:42:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i only know settings about checking timetables and profits. but it should be easy to add another one for age
03:54:35 <rieksts> is there any place i can put a suggestion for devs?
04:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> here, the forum, the bug tracker
04:21:46 <rieksts> ok, thank you for help.
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05:51:23 <Pikka> that peter1138's a spy!
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08:49:19 <dihedral> Rubidium, is the mention of the move command in fs4464 the reason why it asserts or just a simple way to reproduce the assert?
08:50:31 <dihedral> my fear would be the move command being responsible for it
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09:49:11 <Rubidium> dihedral: yes, the move command causes the same assertion as well
09:49:18 <Rubidium> though slightly due to different circumstances
09:50:13 <Rubidium> the precondition to reset a company (no clients) was met so the command is sent
09:50:22 <Rubidium> with the move command you put someone in the company
09:50:54 <Rubidium> which triggers the same assertions as the initial bankruptcy problem
09:52:52 <Rubidium> and now I look at it... it might even be the case that merging (buying shares) causes trouble
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10:09:08 * andythenorth does hope to ship FIRS 0.6 soon :)
10:09:57 <Alberth> is FISH ready for that job?
10:20:16 <planetmaker> hehe. I once drove a road, then a care with the sign "house ahead" drove in front of me. two curves later, I saw that it actually was true...
10:20:29 <planetmaker> a half house was driving on such truck in front of me
10:20:59 <planetmaker> funny thing was that still curtains etc were in the windows...
10:22:05 <planetmaker> though maybe the other half was in front of that. It was impossible to look past that ;-)
10:22:46 * andythenorth awaits a delivery from Mr MacKellar
10:22:56 <andythenorth> 1x iron works is expected at noon
10:23:30 <planetmaker> andythenorth: as replacement for the steel mill? Or another industry?
10:23:39 <andythenorth> another industry
10:23:47 <andythenorth> MB was right about the early metal chain
10:24:16 <andythenorth> he said it should be two processing industries not one
10:24:20 <andythenorth> I thought I knew better
10:24:23 <andythenorth> but I was wrong in this case
10:28:55 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r21969 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Introduce 'minimal' number of industries as a replacment for the old 'none' setting in the newgame window.
10:29:16 <andythenorth> ^ what does it do? sounds good...
10:29:57 <Alberth> it behaves mostly like the old 'none' setting, except it starts with all forced industries instead of 0 industries
10:30:03 <planetmaker> what the name says :-)
10:31:03 <Alberth> perhaps you can explain why it is a good setting
10:31:26 <andythenorth> I prefer the word 'minimal' :P
10:31:40 <planetmaker> 'none' still remains ;-)
10:32:06 <Alberth> ie what's the point of starting without industries if you aim to set up industry cargo chains?
10:32:55 <andythenorth> make money on PAX, then fund industry?
10:32:59 <andythenorth> maybe some people like that
10:33:30 <Alberth> that I can understand, which is what the current 'none' does
10:33:33 * planetmaker should de-compile av8... for easier alignment of the new OpenGFX planes
10:34:39 <Alberth> nmlc -d -i av8.grf -o ac8.nml ? :p
10:35:51 <planetmaker> I just grep-awked the current aircrafts somewhat from nfo to nml ;-)
10:36:44 <planetmaker> real sprites are easy, you know ;-)
10:38:32 <andythenorth> planetmaker....I need sometime soon to face that cb28 patch :(
10:38:44 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21970 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#4464]: Crash when a multiplayer company goes bankrupt with 'you' in it
10:38:52 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r21971 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix (r21969): Subversion auto-increments revision on commit.
10:39:18 <planetmaker> uhm... you mean the layout selection? Or what was cb28?
10:39:36 <andythenorth> well there are two approaches
10:39:41 <andythenorth> one is to be able to specify layout
10:40:00 <andythenorth> the other is to have cb28 cycle through layouts until one is allowed (or end if none)
10:40:14 <andythenorth> frosch thought the cb28 route was better
10:40:37 <andythenorth> he thought it already *should* do that
10:40:41 <andythenorth> i.e. it's out of spec
10:40:53 <planetmaker> I'd prepare (internally) a list of allowed layouts and then pick one from that
10:41:03 <planetmaker> but it's a bit convoluted
10:41:28 <planetmaker> I looked briefly at it the other day, but then decided that sleep was the better option
10:41:54 <andythenorth> it seems to be a case of moving some code to 1 or 2 new functions
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10:42:01 <andythenorth> and changing the existing loop
10:42:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, somewhat. A function like GetPermissibleLayout() or so should be in order
10:42:52 <andythenorth> I wish I could find the transcript I save :P
10:43:00 <andythenorth> frosch123 gave instructions in it :|
10:43:59 <Alberth> computers just shift the problems from not having information to not being able to find it :)
10:44:35 <frosch123> iirc you just had to pass the layout number through a bunch of functions, and move the calling of cb 28 to an earrlier place
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10:46:01 * Alberth makes room for JOHN-SHEPARD
10:52:09 <frosch123> why do we have so many users who harrass other fs reporters, whenever there is a crash report and the log contains the line "grf config changed"? esp. when it is very doubtful the crash is caused by that :s
10:53:25 <Wolf01> do an automatic check for "grf config changed" and reject the bug report with a red error box
10:53:26 <Alberth> trying to be helpful, but utterly clueless ?
10:53:42 <frosch123> Alberth: but it annoys me (dih in this case btw :p )
10:54:05 <frosch123> if you yell at somenoe else you should at least know what you are talking about
10:54:27 <Alberth> there are more users that add comments about bugs not always relevant to the problem
10:55:16 <Alberth> frosch123: you do? Thizz iszz tze internet man!
10:56:09 <Alberth> I sometimes add comments about such actions :)
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11:08:01 <dihedral> frosch123, i take your point, and i was not trying to be helpful to be honest
11:08:35 <dihedral> but i'll refrain from such comments in the future ;-)
11:10:43 <dihedral> however i would not be surprised if people in the forums stumble across that bug report and complain about it not being 'allowed' without setting the developer tools thingy
11:11:07 <dihedral> however crashes being supported in bugs. :-P
11:13:06 <Terkhen> but OpenTTD shouldn't segfault because of that
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11:42:40 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r21972 /trunk/src/ (genworld_gui.cpp lang/english.txt table/settings.h): -Fix: Replace 'None' industries in the generation window with more descriptive label.
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11:48:20 <DanMacK> 'tis morning, very early morning :P
11:48:54 <planetmaker> he, quite for you
11:49:09 <planetmaker> and that on the weekend!
11:52:03 <DanMacK> and long shift today :P Gonna be fun, lol
11:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i had to get up early today as well ;)
12:03:34 <Alberth> a bit massive, isn't it, Andy?
12:11:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: it fits with other buildings ;)
12:12:36 <Alberth> from a somewhat different style/era :)
12:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS buildings in general seem to be fairly tall
12:14:08 <andythenorth> but they're scaled to houses
12:14:15 <andythenorth> and default industries ;)
12:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks out of proportion when they are in the middle of empty space
12:15:12 <andythenorth> it would seem odd to draw them at a different scale to the rest of the game
12:15:24 <andythenorth> 'scale' being somewhat flexible I know
12:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the houses have different scales all over the place
12:16:29 <Alberth> would it get better if you leave out a few chimneys? (so there is a bit more empty room between them)
12:17:25 <Alberth> but all pixels would need to be moved then :(
12:18:22 <andythenorth> I think it will look better once there are shadows under it
12:18:29 <andythenorth> currently it is hovering a bit
12:18:55 <andythenorth> i.e. doesn't look like the structure is connected to the ground
12:23:33 <Alberth> yeah that will help a lot
12:27:46 <andythenorth> FIRS website shows nearly as many industries deprecated as included
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12:33:47 <Alberth> once you passed that point, you must make a FIRS:the original grf
12:35:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the better structure might be: make one industry list per (major) version - and skip all deprecated stuff
12:35:31 <planetmaker> better overview and one can still go back in time by viewing the stuff in other (older )versions
12:36:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'll rework that website one day to do that :)
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12:44:14 <andythenorth> it's easier on the eye
12:44:27 <andythenorth> the chimneys were too much
12:45:01 <Alberth> doesn't a kiln need some chimneys?
12:45:13 <andythenorth> but it's whatever looks best here...
12:45:21 <andythenorth> I'll try drawing a smaller chimney for it
12:45:29 <andythenorth> or different colour
12:45:46 <planetmaker> andythenorth: is it possible to have quarry / dredging site be the same industry?
12:45:55 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I wondered that
12:45:58 <planetmaker> (just a random idea to save a slot ;-) )
12:46:14 <andythenorth> I can't see how to resolve that to one string
12:46:26 <andythenorth> 'stone / sand supply'
12:47:35 <andythenorth> the other issue is that 'build on water' is simply an action 0 flag property
12:48:01 <andythenorth> there would need to be tile checking code written with cb2f to replace it
12:48:55 <andythenorth> it's logical, but maybe not best use of available time?
12:49:19 <planetmaker> and there's still 20 slots free :-P
12:50:15 <andythenorth> minimap is a bit hard to use though :(
12:51:39 <planetmaker> I'm still not sure about the Darwin300 size, though
12:52:36 <andythenorth> I need to add fruit processor
12:52:46 <andythenorth> produces: fruit juice
12:54:47 * andythenorth ponders a baking economy
12:54:55 <andythenorth> with flour, sugar and butter as cargos
12:55:18 <andythenorth> sodium bicarbonate
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12:55:57 <andythenorth> *that* would rebalance coal
12:56:28 <V453000> beer should be the most expensive cargo anyway
12:56:54 <andythenorth> I was going to add beer as a cargo to FIRS
12:59:40 <Terkhen> indeed, the HQ should accept beer
12:59:58 <V453000> andythenorth: I think it would be a favorised change to FIRS :p
13:00:19 <andythenorth> I've been trying to keep 3 cargo slots free
13:00:26 <andythenorth> but it might be worth giving one up for this
13:01:54 <andythenorth> there would need to be a new PAX-like cargo
13:02:49 <andythenorth> NARS 2 regearing was very smart, but it wastes a cargo slot :|
13:02:54 <andythenorth> there should be a better way
13:03:46 <andythenorth> is BEER an express cargo?
13:04:09 <planetmaker> One cargo slot should not hurt really. There'll always be one too few
13:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd think rather not.
13:08:56 <andythenorth> BEER: liquid express
13:09:43 <planetmaker> barrels or crates
13:09:53 <planetmaker> (crates with bottles)
13:10:33 <dihedral> my friends call me 'sahid' :-P
13:12:17 <andythenorth> I have to edit the TTDP wiki now
13:12:22 <andythenorth> to add BEER to cargo labels
13:16:44 <frosch123> beer? isn't that just food?
13:17:26 <frosch123> i see, express, piece goods, refridgerated :p
13:17:55 <Alberth> -20 degrees celsius should be enough :)
13:18:02 <andythenorth> there should be a variation depending on language
13:18:11 <andythenorth> british english doesn't require refridgerated
13:18:42 <V453000> that is done only with bad beer ... so that you dont feel how bad it is when it is cold :)
13:18:47 <planetmaker> lool @ andythenorth
13:19:07 <andythenorth> I prefer cold beer
13:19:19 <V453000> sure, but frozen beer isnt that good :p
13:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: have you seen asterix? ;)
13:21:36 <andythenorth> I have read the books :)
13:26:55 <planetmaker> better than the movies anyway ;-)
13:31:57 <andythenorth> would someone figure out how to make HQ accept beer?
13:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause> has anyone ever tried to make an "economy" without any cargos at all?
13:36:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and checked how horribly it breaks things? :p
13:43:10 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21973 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Fix: Redraw the town authority window after modifying town authority settings.
13:46:20 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21974 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Add a setting to enable/disable funding local road reconstruction.
13:49:43 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: easier would be to just modify the cargo payment rates.
13:50:56 <dihedral> Terkhen, that sonds great :-)
13:51:16 <Terkhen> thanks, I was sick of doing that by mistake :)
13:52:03 <dihedral> especially good for multiplayer servers :-)
13:53:16 <Terkhen> is there any other town authority action that could be harmful on multiplayer without a setting?
13:54:25 <Rubidium> technically town growing can harm multiplayer
13:54:51 <dihedral> iirc exclusive rights already has a setting, and advertising campain has an influence when competing
13:55:19 <Terkhen> hmm... advertising campaing sounds harmless enough for me
13:55:36 <Terkhen> fund new buildings could get a setting too just for consistency
13:56:08 <frosch123> that setting is very useful in desert :)
13:56:41 <Terkhen> or if town growth is disabled
13:56:53 <dihedral> it has an influence on distribution of cargo to stations though, does it not?
13:57:10 <frosch123> anyway, imo the other stuff does not need settings
13:57:51 <frosch123> if you want to disable advertising you could as well disable the effect of new vehicles on rating
13:58:17 <frosch123> and then the engine speed, and then ...
14:14:31 <Nite> typing in the service intervall for individual vehicles rather then click click click ... click click click click, wouldnt it be nice ?
14:25:11 <Alberth> instead of setting a good default in advanced settings?
14:50:25 <Nite> one common default is good but does not always fit all vehicles in game.
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14:57:40 <Nite> it would also be quicker if you could hold the tiny buttons down and it would repeat, like holding a key on the keyboard
14:57:53 <Nite> either way it could be faster
14:59:29 <Alberth> opening a query window seems feasible, there is only one user-changable number in the widget. It's even quite trivial to do.
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15:05:18 <Nite> when i was doing strg+klick i expected the value change in hundreds but ... you know ...
15:05:49 <Nite> ... well then i guess someday someone will do that trivial task;)
15:07:04 <Nite> "GUI setting to disable reversing at signals" yeah! thank you! nice!°
15:08:25 <Alberth> changing values in hundreds is pretty useless if the default is less than 200 :)
15:08:41 <Alberth> (except for ships iirc)
15:09:20 <Nite> might be true - typing in for huge changes then would be reasonable.
15:09:46 <Nite> why is it useless if you want 720 for example
15:10:45 <Nite> i also often want it off even when its on iun the sever settings and force or order depot stops thus i often need 800
15:11:10 <Nite> but some vehicles will still need aroubnd 150 and autoservice
15:11:47 <Nite> either way i put it, beeing able to set it faster woudl well be faster - nicer.
15:14:31 <andythenorth> cargo units for Alcohol?
15:15:37 <planetmaker> whether I ship it in barrels or crates - what matters are still the litres shipped
15:15:54 <planetmaker> and the vehicle anyway decides what packaging is used
15:16:23 <Nite> bottels could be anything from 2cl to some magnum 20liters ...
15:17:23 <planetmaker> and then down in one the 20l bottle :-P
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15:17:42 <Nite> so it does not descrbe how much you are actually carrying - only litres does that
15:18:02 <Nite> - you would definately simply burst
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15:25:39 <Nite> boar the biggest wine bottle regularly produced is 98,5 litres
15:27:19 <andythenorth> alcohol: worth more or less than food in a default economy
15:27:36 <Terkhen> depends on how bad it is :)
15:28:19 <supermop> yeah, assuming alchohol taxes are not really relevant to a common carrier company,
15:28:26 <supermop> I would say a little less?
15:29:02 <supermop> as the tax is added in at the retail phase rather than the mass production level?
15:29:05 <andythenorth> a pint of beer is worth more than a pint of milk
15:29:25 <andythenorth> slightly less then
15:29:49 <supermop> but most of the cost of that beer is tax
15:30:05 <supermop> rather than the cost to ship or make it relative to milk
15:30:13 <andythenorth> I'll do slightly less than food :)
15:30:19 <supermop> (also some governments subsidize milk)
15:31:45 <andythenorth> so who's writing code for the HQ to accept BEER?
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15:33:08 <supermop> or champagne when your performance is high enough?
15:33:08 <andythenorth> the default cargo payment rate graph background is low contrast :P
15:33:20 <andythenorth> it's a pleasing mid grey
15:33:32 <andythenorth> but I've run out of good colour choices for cargos on it
15:33:51 <supermop> i always found it hard to read even with default cargo
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15:42:53 <planetmaker> mostly the font there is too small IMHO
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15:57:32 <andythenorth> should brewery produce only alcohol
15:57:36 <andythenorth> or alcohol and food?
15:59:08 <planetmaker> beer is food and no beverage :-P
16:02:23 <dihedral> sadly you cannot turn that around -> food is beer? :-P
16:03:17 <Rubidium> beer is nuclear waste
16:03:28 <planetmaker> urgs... marmite :-(
16:03:46 <dihedral> marmite on toast - yumm :)
16:04:23 <planetmaker> but only when marmite is replaced by maple sirup before consumption
16:06:04 <andythenorth> this is making me hungry :P
16:07:49 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21975 /trunk/src/ (5 files):
16:07:49 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Add: console command to reset the engine pool. It removes the traces of engines
16:07:49 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: which are no longer associated to a NewGRF, and can be used to e.g. 'fix'
16:07:49 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: scenarios which were screwed up by the author. You can only use it when there
16:07:49 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: are no vehicles in the game though.
16:10:31 <andythenorth> how do I do some climate specific action 7 nonsense?
16:11:49 <planetmaker> just check skip the following sprites, if not the matching climate
16:12:26 <andythenorth> I think I've got it
16:12:30 <andythenorth> always seems clunky :P
16:12:56 <planetmaker> it's one line. Or two, if you define via action 10 a target to jump to. That might be safer.
16:13:07 <andythenorth> sugar refinery now produces coal :P
16:13:49 <planetmaker> definitely possible. Though the intermediate stage is caramel
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16:16:22 <supermop> sounds fine, just have a several million year delay between delivering cargo, and production of coal
16:21:11 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: alberth * r21976 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp train.h train_cmd.cpp): -Doc: Document several crash handling functions.
16:21:54 <Alberth> wouldn't caramel burn just as well?
16:22:52 <supermop> well, you would need more volume of caremel to get a certain number of joules out
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16:36:54 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21977 /trunk/src/ (main_gui.cpp smallmap_gui.cpp viewport_gui.cpp window.cpp): -Codechange: Always cal Window::OnMouseWheel(), independent of viewport scroll/zoom settings.
16:50:02 <Nite> iam amazed how fast and smooth the 1.1.0 betas run, even when fully zoomed out
16:50:12 <Nite> is it major code changes?
16:51:01 <planetmaker> possibly you just started and empty and / or smaller game?
16:51:57 <Nite> no, it simply runs faster for me ... also teh saving works properly now for me
16:52:50 <Nite> has it just gotten faster by esotherics?
16:53:27 <planetmaker> saving might be faster... it was better moved to a separate thread IIRC
16:54:58 <Nite> just was shown the "display chain" feature - "awwww"
16:55:24 <Nite> it might take long until trying out every new feature
16:57:21 <Nite> btw the "link to smal map" button does not jump back if u close the small map, or is it a feature i do not get?
16:58:42 <Nite> ...and, is it true i cannot laod any 1.0 game in 1.1 ?
16:59:25 <Nite> no (to answer my own question)
16:59:32 <Nite> just some newgrfs where missing
17:00:14 <Nite> finding newgrfs for savegames as for multiplayer games (?)
17:04:52 <supermop> i have not been paying much attention...
17:05:23 <Nite> but iam sure the features in the betas mostly go to 1.1
17:29:21 <Nite> why are there now two little arrows in the order list ?
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17:34:27 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21978 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Codechange/Fix: Remove usage of Window::top and left from IConsoleWindow::OnPaint(). Drawing is done relative to the window position. But as the position is (0,0) anyway, it was not noticeable.
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17:36:43 <frosch123> Nite: do distinguish real from automatic orders
17:37:46 <frosch123> if you do not know about automatic orders: build a route without non-stop orders between two stations and a bunch of stations between them, where the vehicle will halt due to not using non-stop
17:41:18 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21979 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Fix: Scrolling of the console in pages used wrong line height and scrolled too much.
17:44:57 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21980 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Draw one line more at the top of the console, i.e. clip the top-most line if there is not enough room instead of not drawing it at all.
17:46:01 <Nite> i do that a lot with pax frosch, so i will probably soon see what the arrows mean, i guess
17:47:23 <Nite> i just noticed the current "train aciton view" makes artefacts when the information changes :-/
17:49:52 <Nite> like its written over when the length changes due to speed changes
17:50:30 <frosch123> you mean the statusbar of the vehicle window?
17:51:35 <Nite> yes the bar where you start stop the vehicle ... says: "current train action" on hover/right click
17:51:40 <dihedral> anybody familiar with sabayon linux?
17:53:43 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21981 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate the code and unify the bounds of console scrolling.
17:54:49 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21982 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Add: Wheel scrolling to console.
17:56:04 <Nite> just saw what automatic stop is
17:56:14 <Nite> ist also greyed out here
17:58:20 <Nite> do the automatic stops do anything new exept showing me that it is there?
17:58:50 <frosch123> they are only information to the user, they have no effect on the vehicle's route
18:00:08 <Nite> (converting them to real order ...)
18:01:34 <Nite> well they have a littel use even
18:01:57 <Nite> you can more easily skip them while a vehicle does the stop
18:05:08 <dihedral> frosch123, i like your commits :-)
18:08:25 <Nite> its good that autostops are greyed out otherwise they woudl be confusing, but can i switch the display of them on or off?
18:10:11 <frosch123> no, and it is not a good idea to hide them in general
18:10:46 <frosch123> but one could add an option to collapse them
18:11:18 <frosch123> like: hide all automatic orders except the current one
18:11:54 <Nite> i always used much of the automatic(forced) orders without seeing them
18:12:26 <Nite> only having ordered the two end stations having many in beetween
18:46:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r21983 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: belarusian - 6 changes by Wowanxm
18:46:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by CrazyBenny
18:46:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
18:46:07 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: estonian - 7 changes by notAbot
18:46:07 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
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19:10:04 <Nite> ... still the train status does not update correctly graphics wise, cannot see the exact train speed (+artefacts)
19:30:27 <Nite> teh automatic order display sometimes accumulates showing 6 automatic orders for just one station
19:36:16 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21984 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix: Compilation without AI was broken
19:37:23 <Nite> like this: i placed a new busstop now many buses that shared orders in that area found the stop and sudenly 6 new automatic orders where shown
19:39:44 <Nite> and they stillfind new automatic orders even all busstations are ordered now ... every time they go to depotservice and back out ...
19:40:11 <planetmaker> do you play with 1.1.0-beta5?
19:40:16 <Nite> information is good, but only when it doesent get in yor way ...
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19:41:32 <Nite> i like the ability to show automatic stops just not "always"
19:41:47 <Rubidium> then use non-stop orders
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19:42:23 <Nite> then vehicles woudl not stop at all
19:43:03 <Alberth> the green is much more friendly I think
19:43:22 <Alberth> and the darker chimneys are better
19:43:30 <Nite> the blue is easier to spot in the grass though
19:43:43 <andythenorth> company colour - it's randomised on construction
19:44:12 <andythenorth> another winner :)
19:44:13 <planetmaker> To me it feels very high, but that might just be me
19:44:22 <andythenorth> I have more to do to it
19:44:26 <planetmaker> I'd cut away the upper storey
19:44:29 <supermop___> the old neolithic one could be appropriate for early games with more noise added
19:44:32 <andythenorth> but not higher than other FIRS buildings
19:44:36 <andythenorth> it's just very thin :P
19:44:43 <Nite> what is that building supposed to be?
19:44:55 <planetmaker> what the file name tells you
19:45:15 <andythenorth> I could knock the legs off the kilns
19:45:24 <andythenorth> and move it down a bit
19:45:54 <andythenorth> which do you think?
19:46:00 <planetmaker> look up the credits of both sets...
19:46:21 <planetmaker> 0 points. Please sit down
19:52:39 <Nite> i did NOT mean the automaticorder display is buged
19:53:08 <Nite> its just logical that vehicles will find automatic stops while going back from a depot stop
19:53:37 <Nite> but do you want this ...
19:55:47 <Nite> i woudl say there are two phases; one where you plan and make your orders and do not want to see autoanything popping up, and anotherone where you watch how the orders work and want to see where autostops are done ...
19:56:36 <Alberth> I always add all stations to the order list
19:58:12 <Nite> even then trains might find a way to autostop - complex systems are fun
19:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> not when you also use non-stop when assigning all orders anyway
19:59:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also use service at depot orders
20:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> at the stop that is nearest to the depot
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20:00:36 <Nite> true there can be systems without any autostops at all, and many work that way ...
20:01:00 <Nite> i use forced depots almost always
20:01:14 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... need to take care of {black,gray}-furry-thing-that-is-bored-and-makes-miau
20:02:36 <Nite> ok forced tdepot stops do not show as autodepotorder
20:04:04 <Nite> hm ... need to take care of {blond,brunette}-skinny-thing-that-is-bored-and-> tries to paint my face with black lipstick.
20:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it looked less tall with the intermediate level
20:08:44 <Alberth> the previous was more unique
20:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and what is the meaning of the gray block?
20:09:19 <Alberth> you already have many high round tuby things
20:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and is it gray or grey? i never remember right...
20:09:35 <andythenorth> but there's no need to stick to RL
20:09:40 <andythenorth> it's whatever looks best in game...
20:10:04 <andythenorth> I think without the middle storey it just looks like a grain silo or whatever
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20:14:24 <Nite> original also looks quite high ...
20:14:40 <Nite> but right there is no greyblock
20:15:34 <Nite> and all the windows make it special i think
20:16:20 <andythenorth> I'm going to add the windows
20:16:57 <andythenorth> the grey block was a copy-paste cheat to avoid some drawing :P
20:17:30 <Nite> how do you draw such pixelart?
20:19:32 <andythenorth> Nite: you mean which app?
20:19:37 <andythenorth> or something else?
20:21:08 <andythenorth> other people use simpler tools
20:21:16 <andythenorth> I like photoshop :D
20:22:50 <Nite> kk adobe suit for pixelart - nice ;)
20:26:07 <andythenorth> but I know photoshop
20:27:28 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21985 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use VehicleOrderID where appropiate.
20:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think we're heading in the right direction :)
20:30:20 <andythenorth> what's this 'we' business :P
20:30:53 <Nite> fine now some detail (windoz)
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20:34:03 <andythenorth> all in good time ;)
20:35:26 <supermop> piles in the front yard?
20:35:37 <andythenorth> piles, tanks, offices
20:37:13 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21986 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp engine_base.h strings.cpp): -Codechange: Add helper function to test whether an engine is still associated to a GRF.
20:38:21 <dihedral> frosch123, how could an engine all of a sudden not be associated with a grf anymore?
20:38:43 <frosch123> well, associated to a present grf
20:39:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth: wrt #6: the choote(? - how does one spell it?) looks a bit detached to me
20:39:23 <andythenorth> the perils of posting work-in-progress :D
20:39:26 <frosch123> i.e. when grfs are missing, got removed, or incompatible
20:39:54 <dihedral> well, 'get removed' surely should not be the case :-P
20:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: what if the grf author said the grf must be incompatible with any release builds?
20:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: then, load a game from nightly in release -> grf gets deactivated
20:41:27 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21987 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: Make news items, engine previews and AI preview events deal with no longer existing Engine items after resetting the pool.
20:42:13 <dihedral> interesting - why should the savegame then at all load?
20:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: the savegame doesn't know that the grf will deactivate after loading
20:42:37 <dihedral> would that not render a savegame only compatible to that very version of openttd in combination of grf's?
20:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: it can only detect whether the grf is present
20:43:18 <dihedral> i thought OpenTTD would be able to detect that - if required grf were available, before loading
20:43:37 <dihedral> well - that is part of the loading process, ok :-P
20:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: "available" == "file with correct md5 is present". not "file is present and we can guarantee it won't execute an action B"
20:47:21 <Nite> searching for missing grfs worked for me befre flawlessly with a 1.0 savegame ... btw
21:07:37 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21988 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Change: Disable smooth scrolling for GHK_CENTER_ZOOM when zooming is also involved.
21:14:07 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21989 /trunk/src/ground_vehicle.hpp: -Fix (r21954): Vehicle status bar glitches on speed changes.
21:17:49 <V453000> hello there, is the counting of train length in depots selectable in the 1.1.0 beta5?
21:18:00 <V453000> I mean, is it possible to swap it back to the original?
21:18:28 <planetmaker> nope. Is it needed?
21:18:35 <Eddi|zuHause> because counting halftiles is silly.
21:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it has no value whatsoever in gameplay
21:18:54 <andythenorth> it's good to practice maths :D
21:19:23 <SmatZ> halftiles are important for curves
21:19:23 <V453000> well, sometimes it is actually useful to have 4.5 tile trains
21:20:03 <V453000> the original was just much more obvious :(
21:20:09 <SmatZ> with short vehicles, it's not that easy
21:20:11 <planetmaker> and the old system wasn't accurate either as the wagon lengths are in 1/8 quantiles and... a tile has 16/8 length
21:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> show fractional values: 4 8/16 ;)
21:20:17 <SmatZ> sometimes it could even be 4+2 wagons
21:20:32 <V453000> ok, could I ask you to make it optional?
21:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> should be possible to do.
21:21:34 <frosch123> then i would prefer to display something like "4 + 3/8" or similar
21:21:50 <V453000> that would be actually amazing, frosch :)
21:21:52 <frosch123> "4 + 3/16" actually
21:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i said
21:23:13 <V453000> could you please implement that? :) I already experienced flaws even with the older one
21:23:31 <V453000> tropic refurbishment set had officially "4", but slowed down in some curves for 2tile trains
21:23:47 <V453000> with the iron ore wagons which obviousl have some weird length :)
21:23:49 <frosch123> it makes the number quite long tohugh
21:24:22 <V453000> well, that does indeed, but if you make it optional so anyone can change it as he likes, they cant really complain :)
21:26:02 <V453000> could even make it "4+3" and make the setting either hidden in cfg or heavily explained :p
21:26:47 <frosch123> the idea was to remove stupid settings
21:27:18 <V453000> that is a nice intention, but the halftile counter sometimes really helps a lot
21:27:44 <V453000> I understand that it confused some newbies ... I personally had no problems with it even when I started with openttd
21:28:05 <V453000> and when it counts every wagon with original trains, it makes much more sense in my opinion
21:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i agree with all your arguments, except the last one
21:30:53 <V453000> that is just a matter of taste I suppose :)
21:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the newbie will care about length of trains wrt length of station
21:31:23 <V453000> I just like that when I click something, the numbers change, so it is obvious I did something :) just some "gui preferrence"
21:31:47 <Rubidium> it didn't with the previous variant either
21:32:10 <Rubidium> reliably for every non 8/8 vehicle
21:33:55 <V453000> simply: Can I kindly ask you to make this an option one could select? Thank you
21:35:40 <planetmaker> what could be changed that roundup is used as that matters for stations
21:35:49 <planetmaker> (if it isn't used)
21:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it always rounds up already
21:36:04 <planetmaker> at least that it goes by the same thing as station penalty
21:46:27 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, always extend to /16
21:47:06 <frosch123> well, for normal vehicles length like 5 1/2 would be nice
21:47:23 <frosch123> but starting with /8 and /16 it gets bad :)
21:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. maybe. but remove the leading 0 then
21:48:11 <V453000> that looks pretty neat :)
21:49:02 *** TruePikachu has joined #openttd
21:49:24 <TruePikachu> (wow, I'm surprised I remembered the server name)
21:50:17 <TruePikachu> Oh great, ALSA is failing...I have to reboot...
21:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> thank you for these interesting and helpful statements.
21:51:14 <V453000> good news: he is gone, bad news: he will be probably back
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21:53:17 <TruePikachu> Sorry about the join/quit
21:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the problem with normalising fractions is that you can't easily compare the numbers in your head anymore. whether 3/4 is larger or smaller than 9/16
21:55:12 <TruePikachu> But that is ovious because 9/16 is 3/4 squared, with both between 0 and 1
21:55:33 <Alberth> the 'whole' part needs to be vertically aligned on its own
21:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> alignment may be troublesome
21:56:34 <TruePikachu> ...I literally just got OTTD restarted...
21:57:58 <planetmaker> ccfreak2k: [1] :-P
21:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: the unit is tiles
21:59:09 <TruePikachu> Oh, I can see where you're coming from...
21:59:14 <planetmaker> last week I saw a marvel where units were written, but nicely ignored - with the result that the Power was written in m/s
22:00:23 <ccfreak2k> I hope the pink one is strawberry-flavored.
22:00:23 <TruePikachu> I actually would advocate for 3 decimal places, but w/e
22:00:24 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: how is alignment troublesome? "/16" is fixed, so you need enough width for 0..15 and a bit white space
22:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: so when you only have whole numbers, you waste a lot of space
22:01:32 *** planetmaker has left #openttd
22:01:41 *** planetmaker has joined #openttd
22:01:41 <Alberth> does that ever happen?
22:01:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o planetmaker
22:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the pink one looks ugly
22:02:11 <andythenorth> them's the breaks
22:02:20 <Alberth> andythenorth: looks good, but the grey windows are somewhat non-visible with all except pink and yellow-ish
22:02:21 <andythenorth> I have code to prevent some industry colours being used
22:02:23 <supermop> but we live with them
22:02:56 <andythenorth> we are already spared cream and lilac / mauve colours by my code
22:04:42 <Alberth> frosch123: nicely readable, but so much details seems somewhat overkill to me
22:05:50 <Alberth> we should have a measurement tooltip here :)
22:06:23 <planetmaker> hm, I notice that the buttons on the right scale... not equally
22:06:43 <frosch123> planetmaker: yes, the hardly used ones stay small
22:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: looks nice, but the leading 0 is still weird
22:07:16 <andythenorth> lots of information :o
22:07:18 <planetmaker> I use them about equally if not sell all often
22:07:54 <andythenorth> I use sell all most often
22:08:02 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: actually i readded it, as it looked weird without
22:08:12 <Alberth> but that is not a drop target
22:08:21 <andythenorth> it's quite...busy
22:08:40 <andythenorth> what is this information?
22:08:56 <Alberth> length down to the last millimeter
22:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the scaling buttons are the drag&drop targets. the other ones are normal buttons
22:09:19 <andythenorth> I hope you've got a routine to check screen dpi + resolution then :
22:10:15 * andythenorth does think bed time
22:11:04 * Eddi|zuHause thinks doing something sensible with the computer, but gray-furry-thing-that-makes-miau is blocking the chair
22:11:40 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:12:08 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: doing non-sensible things is ok at this time of day
22:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yeah, but i have not done anything sensible all day
22:13:38 <Alberth> the gray-furry-thing-that-makes-miau has been claiming you all day?
22:15:40 <Eddi|zuHause> nah... people-who-want-to-be-dropped-at-the-airport-in-the-early-morning did
22:17:55 <__ln__> sounds like a business idea for ryanair, dropping people at the airport to save airport taxes
22:18:27 <TruePikachu> I'm just wondering, but why is the minimum company value 2$ = 1 Euro?
22:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the values are in 1£ internally. all other currencies are factors
22:21:59 <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally these factors are adapted to match real world exchange rates more closely
22:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but it must be whole numbers
22:51:40 <ABCRic> channel topic needs updating :)
22:52:17 *** planetmaker changes topic to "1.0.5, 1.1.0-beta5 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only"
23:03:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21990 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Cleanup (r14085): Remove unneeded test.
23:05:47 <dihedral> he's on a spree today
23:08:12 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
23:10:43 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r21991 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4466]: The share/copy-orders-cursor was not updated to refer to the new vehicle when it got autoreplaced/-renewed.
23:10:59 <frosch123> so much for your change-newgrfs-ingame task :p
23:13:13 <__ln__> A WARNING SPOTTED WHILE COMPILING strings.cpp!!
23:14:02 <frosch123> downgrade/upgrade your compiler
23:15:24 <planetmaker> SmatZ: I fear the usual gcc 4.0.1 warning which is bogus
23:15:31 <planetmaker> yes, it started to appear also there ;-)
23:15:47 <__ln__> 'b' may be used uninitialized in this function
23:16:00 <SmatZ> those are invalid, and described in known-bugs.txt
23:16:06 <planetmaker> __ln__: yes, that.
23:16:33 <planetmaker> gcc 4.2 doesn't know that
23:16:41 <planetmaker> but it doesn't compile ppc either
23:16:47 <SmatZ> hmm no, not in known-bugs.txt, it seems
23:17:04 <planetmaker> but I remember well that we established it as compiler bug
23:17:30 <SmatZ> - GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) 3.3 - 4.6.
23:17:32 <SmatZ> Versions 4.1 and earlier give bogus warnings about uninitialised variables.
23:17:33 <__ln__> it certainly looks like the warning is not true.
23:18:30 <planetmaker> maybe it should be added to the known-bugs.txt? As old(er) osx can't work around that
23:19:33 <SmatZ> it's in readme.txt , in the "Compiling" section
23:19:46 <SmatZ> anyone willing to compile openttd is expected to read that :p
23:19:48 <planetmaker> thanks for looking for it
23:20:17 <__ln__> err, why is the "[OSX] SDL port is unuseable" listed in known-bugs.txt as a blocker for even thinking about OS X support again?
23:20:40 <planetmaker> it's rather an indicator than a blocker
23:21:02 <planetmaker> and mostly SDL was / is broken. An update to SDL solved parts of it
23:21:26 <__ln__> i very well know what the bug is about
23:22:01 <__ln__> "Issues prefixed with [OSX] are required to be fixed before we consider officially supporting Mac OS X again. For now it remains unsupported and
23:22:17 <__ln__> we only apply bug fixes provided by the community but we are unable to fix these bugs ourselves.
23:22:24 <__ln__> - 3447[OSX] SDL port is unuseable"
23:22:50 <__ln__> it doesn't make any fucking sense in that context.
23:23:33 <planetmaker> Then add "[OSX] Cursor visibility issues with PPC builds" instead
23:23:46 <__ln__> now that would be a lot better candidate.
23:26:04 <__ln__> so if somebody compiled the Windows port using SDL (which it doesn't use by default either), and found a problem, would that be a blocker for new Windows releases (which do not use SDL)?
23:30:00 <__ln__> does anyone agree or disagree with me even a bit?
23:31:28 <planetmaker> well, I think you're right. And now? ;-)
23:31:45 <planetmaker> damn, I spoilt it :-(
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23:35:12 <__ln__> now could the summary of 3447 be changed to something like "[OSX] ~
23:36:00 <__ln__> now could the summary of 3447 be changed to something like "[OSX] the unused SDL port is unusable"
23:37:04 <SmatZ> why does that bother you?
23:38:31 <SmatZ> it's not "unused" anyway
23:38:58 <frosch123> "[OSX] ~ argh" sounds fine to me
23:39:16 <__ln__> frosch123: yes, that summarizes everything very nicely
23:39:38 <__ln__> SmatZ: but it is, on OS X. you'll have to go through trouble to enable it.
23:40:35 <Wazz> Hey, guys! I'm playing OpenTTD with my friends, and we're playing the tropical setting in the '70s
23:40:35 <planetmaker> if you can tell me why my re-structuring of the video drivers broke ppc and fixes intel, I'd be very glad to hear :-)
23:40:44 <planetmaker> congratulations, wazz
23:40:45 <Wazz> There are only like 3 train car types! What's wrong?
23:41:34 <planetmaker> Wazz: any newgrfs?
23:41:49 <Wazz> Well, only one that I have downloaded, but I haven't applied it
23:42:00 <__ln__> SmatZ: i think it's good that 3447 is there and it can be shown to the occasional persons who come saying SDL should be used on OSX. but what bothers me is that that bug gets so much attention by people who do not realize the "unusable"-state is completely irrelevant in practice.
23:42:27 <planetmaker> did you change any newgrfs on the map (remove)?
23:42:50 <planetmaker> i.e. can you provide a savegame?
23:43:37 <SmatZ> __ln__: sorry, I don't know much about that OSX stuff :-x
23:43:56 <SmatZ> I just know there have been various problems with it
23:43:58 <Wazz> planetmaker: I'll save the game and consult it with my friend taking this into consideration :-) I'll get back to you in a bit!
23:44:13 <ABCRic> __ln__: then change it to "[OSX] [unimportant] SDL port is unuseable" :P
23:44:53 <SmatZ> also I think adding anything to the bug summary is not needed
23:45:10 <SmatZ> "[OSX] SDL port is unuseable" is true
23:45:41 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: well, technically it is a blocker for maintaining OSX, since because of SDL being unusable there is OSX specific code needed, but there is no OSX-specific maintainer
23:45:50 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of 'unusable' ;-)
23:46:19 <planetmaker> it's quite usuable for 'surprises'
23:48:07 <Wazz> planetmaker: That was it! Thanks! I've downloaded one set a friend's told me about, and I had it on the NewGRF's list, thinking it's going to ADD that set to the default set, but it's been replacing them! Thanks :-)
23:49:18 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: that is quite a good argument, assuming it's on the roadmap that OSX-specific code should be replaced with possibly less optimal SDL.
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23:49:31 <planetmaker> you're welcome, Wazz
23:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: well, calling it "roadmap" might be exaggerated :p
23:52:31 <__ln__> performance is some kind of an issue with the current OSX video implementation written by smart people and Bjarni. it would be quite optimistic to assume that adding a new level of abstraction in between would not make the performance worse.
23:52:45 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: it's just a fact that OSX specific code causes the highest OS-specific maintenance. just count the linux-specific commits and the windows-specific commits in comparison [with or without 'MSVC complains more than GCC' commits]
23:55:38 <perk111> It's just the fact Mac=Evil
23:55:46 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: might very well be true
23:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> perk111: please don't turn this into a religious discussion. there are enough real facts.
23:58:22 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: point is also: all developers save me use either windows or linux. Thus everything they commit is automatically tested for their OS - and doesn't show as specific anywhere
23:58:54 <planetmaker> so this clearly must lead to a bias.
23:58:58 <__ln__> during the existence of OpenTTD there have been three new Mac OS X versions and a change of processor architecture. only two new Windows versions during that time.
23:59:05 <perk111> Mac is gaining popularity, but not among devs
continue to next day ⏵
