IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-07-25
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00:07:59 <Narigo> the statue looks better than the original graphics :)
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00:30:33 <BlackXanthus> anyone here know anything about build openttd AI's? more specificially about building buses? I have a problem where despite picking one with hte right cargo, when I come to build it, it's a truck, rather than a bus
00:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause> msybe you're better off asking such things in the AI forum? it might not be as quick to get a response, but you are more likely to find a knowledgable person there
00:33:49 <glx> looks like a wrong EngineID
00:38:03 <BlackXanthus> I thought about that... but it was the quick response I was after =)
00:38:16 <BlackXanthus> if I fail at working it out, then I'll post on the forums before I go to sleep.
00:38:29 <BlackXanthus> it's irritating because it's the last piece of the puzzle.
00:38:56 <glx> maybe your method to pick the engineid is incorrect
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06:32:59 <robotboy> hmph now sed is whinging it can not close stdin
06:33:21 <robotboy> I might give in to building OpenTTD on DOS soon
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09:05:56 <robotboy> will configure >> configure.log redirect the output of everything from configure to the file configure.log?
09:06:22 <robotboy> or does bash to redirection differently
09:07:12 <robotboy> i'm now having issues with sed
09:08:38 <robotboy> and I get pages of the error couldn't close stdin bad file descriptor
09:09:08 <robotboy> I want to redirect it to a log so I can leave it and come back to read the entire output later
09:10:05 <TomyLobo> robotboy no, stderr will not be redirected
09:10:23 <TomyLobo> configure > configure.log 2>configure.err
09:10:34 <Alberth> you are running bash, and inside bash you run configure?
09:10:58 <Alberth> then ./configure >& logfile
09:11:13 <TomyLobo> >&? interesting didnt know that ^^
09:11:23 <TomyLobo> that merges all streams into one file?
09:12:07 <Alberth> yeah, although it is not the recommended syntax, I seem to remember from the last time I browsed bash(1)
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09:25:18 <planetmaker> robotboy, that will work. If you want both, stdout and stderr re-directed, go for ./configure 2>&1 > configure.log
09:25:36 <planetmaker> though for a normal configure you expect stderr to be empty ;-)
09:32:48 <robotboy> my DOS machin is becomming even more FrankenDOS
09:38:48 <robotboy> I shall see what I get in my log after adding another load of DOS posrts of *nix programs
09:39:22 <planetmaker> dosnix :-P (or nixdos - a pun working much better in German :-P )
09:40:16 <Alberth> planetmaker: isn't that called minix? :)
09:44:35 <planetmaker> Alberth, by the looks of it: minix is much leaner, smaller and more reliable than DOS could ever be ;-)
09:44:44 <planetmaker> though... DOS itself had little problems actually afair
09:45:37 <Alberth> minix was a unix variant for hardware without memory manager
09:48:33 <andythenorth> when an industry is constructed, could it transform adjacent tiles?
09:52:38 <andythenorth> Alberth: have you put anything about the industry chains on the forum?
09:56:21 <Alberth> it just got included in the nightly last evening
09:56:31 <Wolf01> robotboy and if you want to add the date-time to the log filename you can use "for /f (tokens=1-3 delim=/) %%j do ( echo %%j-%%k-%%l)
09:57:17 <Alberth> Wolf01: is that bash syntax ??
09:57:30 <planetmaker> in any case: I love the industry chain display :-) Nice idea and implementation
09:57:38 <Wolf01> but if he's using cygwin it should work
09:58:17 <planetmaker> One thing I'd change a bit, it's the scroll speed in the tree view there; it's quite slow compared to other places
09:58:23 <robotboy> when I stick 2>&1 > configure.log on the end, I start getting errors about os=0 not being recognised yet i am actually using --os=DOS
09:59:17 <robotboy> that should work if for is an external dos command
09:59:56 <Wolf01> if you make a batch process to make, you can append variables
10:00:48 <Wolf01> like "make %1 2>&1 > logfile_%DATE%.log"
10:00:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm mentioning the chains display in a post - is that ok?
10:01:04 <robotboy> hm I have no idea why it's no longer taking --os=DOS even without redirecting to configure.log
10:01:15 <Alberth> andythenorth: sure, it is available in the nightlies
10:01:49 <robotboy> ill leave this alone for a while
10:01:51 <Wolf01> I use various batch process scheduled to backup my server (I run on winhose xp)
10:02:35 <Wolf01> maybe doix does not support all dos functions
10:03:01 <robotboy> im usind MS-DOS with various *nix commands ported
10:03:17 <Wolf01> ok, it should be fine then
10:03:28 <robotboy> and im doing ./configure from within bash
10:04:35 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20215 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3971]: Remove all road pieces rather than aborting at the first ownership error (Krille).
10:05:35 <Wolf01> lol, I made my very first led flashlight with an inductor, a transistor and a resistance, all without using instruments to make all perfect, so it works but not as intended :D
10:10:19 <Chrill> kind of unrelated question
10:10:31 <Chrill> will RCTPatch allow RCT 1 to run on XP?
10:11:03 <Wolf01> It should be able to run, at least I remember to have played it on XP
10:11:40 <Wolf01> Maybe you might have to enable the compatibility to w98
10:13:24 <Chrill> I'm helping out Mr. Saibot from TT-Forums =)
10:17:25 <Wolf01> Rubidium, has that italian guy been satisfied by the email?
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10:29:52 <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, I guess the scrollbar code is not expecting pixel-precise scrolling :)
10:31:35 * Alberth ponders about a good step size for scrolling
10:32:31 <planetmaker> Alberth, 10 pixels or so
10:32:43 <planetmaker> But I didn't yet play around with
10:33:09 <planetmaker> but typical line heights in other windows might be a good indicator
10:33:19 <planetmaker> maybe font height?
10:33:42 <Alberth> I was also thinking in that direction
10:33:50 <Alberth> I'll do an experiment
10:37:09 <Rubidium> Wolf01: never received a reply from him, so can't say
10:40:32 <Wolf01> they ask, you reply, they disappear
10:42:45 <Rubidium> Wolf01: it's less annoying than people filing bug reports and not replying, and then seeing them make hundreds of changes a day on the wiki
10:44:33 <Wolf01> gah, the worst thing to do when upgrading a PC is to reinstall _everything_
10:44:52 <Wolf01> where _everything_ takes from 1 hour to many ages...
10:45:27 <Rubidium> why reinstall everything?
10:46:21 <Wolf01> because it was really messed up, and now I purchased win7 pro
10:47:05 <Rubidium> oh... Windows, that makes some sense yes
10:47:40 <Rubidium> I've only done a reinstall when I went to a new computer with a different architecture
10:48:27 <Rubidium> and even then: export package list, reinstall base, install all packages from the exported package list, copy home directory... presto...
10:49:20 <Wolf01> 3 days ago I updated ubuntu 9.10 to 10.04, 4 hours but everything is ok and I didn't have to touch the keyboard but 2 times where asked me something but I pressed "enter" to select the default
10:49:55 <Rubidium> and the most time was probably spent downloading the packages :)
10:51:59 <Wolf01> then I only had to download manually some -dev libraries because I needed to compile linpopup2, which doesn't work well, it sends empty messages
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10:56:56 <Wolf01> It's the only easiest way to send lan messages without using net send or smbclient
10:57:24 <Wolf01> and with linpopup it receives messages from windows too
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11:26:11 * robotboy might try and run ./configure again
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11:41:24 <robotboy> it seems ive totaly broken ./configure as it breaks --os=DOS and thinks ive passed --os=0
11:41:59 <robotboy> yet I haven't edited it
11:42:09 <robotboy> ive just added more unix utils
11:58:16 <planetmaker> robotboy, try to quote DOS
11:58:29 <planetmaker> just a random guess, but maybe it works
12:00:35 <perk11> Does openttd work on DOS?
12:01:05 <Rubidium> yes, besides networking (and possibly some long filename issues)
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12:38:34 <Alberth> thanks for the report planetmaker
12:38:42 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20216 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix: Increase scrolling speed of industry cargoes window, enlarge height slightly so small chains fit by default.
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14:24:04 <Rubidium> oeh... more clients than servers :) 228 vs 227 though :(
14:33:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20217 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3969]: Invalidate saveload GUI after rescanning NewGRFs.
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14:46:01 <planetmaker> might be. I didn't look at it. I just saw that a crash was reported ;-)
14:46:24 <planetmaker> so... shall I (still) open an FS entry about it?
14:47:52 <frosch123> hmm, in the 2cc set i have (some old checkout) there are spaces in front of the names, instead of SETX
14:47:56 <frosch123> or at least it looks like that
14:49:07 <planetmaker> that guy uses the 2cctrainset-v2.0beta3
14:49:42 <planetmaker> hm... the guy even correctly selected version 1.0.2 ;-)
14:52:59 <frosch123> src/fontcache.cpp:970: const Sprite* GetGlyph(FontSize, WChar): Assertion `IsPrintable(key)' failed. <- haha, even better :)
14:54:00 <planetmaker> the rars contain the full required crash infos.
14:54:32 <Rubidium> so the bug report is that we don't strip the string "properly"
14:54:49 <planetmaker> likely that's the OpenTTD side.
14:55:02 <planetmaker> Probably 2cctrainset is (also) doing something wrong then
14:55:33 <Rubidium> yeah... using those huge vehicle images and thus requiring setx/spaces
14:55:58 <frosch123> ok, but what is the correct behaviour?
14:56:17 <frosch123> i.e. if you just remove the setx we get bugreports that the names overwrite the sprites after renaming ...
14:56:18 <planetmaker> frosch123: I'd assume to just skip the non-printable characters?
14:56:29 <planetmaker> hm, is setx not allowed anymore?
14:56:41 <frosch123> or add a specialcase to keep setx at the very front...
14:57:10 <Rubidium> or ... remove the possibility to rename "engines"
14:57:19 <planetmaker> If I were you I'd forbid setx :-P
14:57:58 <Rubidium> planetmaker: and forbid spaces for alignment... so 2cc must revert to the "small" amount of pixels the normal vehicles have
14:58:05 <planetmaker> But I don't recall all arguments from the previous discussion about it.
14:58:13 <Rubidium> same for fish and lots of other vehicle NewGRFs
14:58:31 <frosch123> [16:57] <Rubidium> or ... remove the possibility to rename "engines" <- i bet sirkoz is the first one to complain :p
14:58:39 <planetmaker> he :-) - or adjust to the length of the longest available vehicle
14:59:14 <planetmaker> if the name strings are aligned by the longest vehicle sprite, I guess all these problems are gone
14:59:38 <planetmaker> though it requires to parse all sprites, even those not displayed yet
14:59:40 <frosch123> hmm, isn't there already something like that for the rtl version?
14:59:53 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yeah... people are very good in keeping vehicle sprite sizes to a minimum... those huge seas of blue pixels
15:00:20 <planetmaker> Rubidium, isn't there some kind of internal -c?
15:00:38 <planetmaker> like cropping to the necessary area and adjusting placement?
15:00:52 <Rubidium> no, unlikely to ever happen either
15:01:26 <planetmaker> Still... then the deep blue seas will extend sprites by maybe 10 pixels or whatever.
15:01:46 * frosch123 also thinks so. it is no good idea to add too much magic (like cropping) inside ottd
15:02:17 <planetmaker> let the name then for those cases start further right. Not much harm then
15:02:37 <planetmaker> It's a newgrf 'bug' or glitch in those cases where there's significant empty space between the name and the sprites
15:03:24 <planetmaker> and... I don't think that there's too much blue left and right for the horizontal view for the largest vehicles.
15:03:35 <planetmaker> (different for short ones possibly)
15:03:41 <planetmaker> but that doesn't matter then
15:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "two prison inmates broke free in argentina. due to budget cuts, the guard was only a doll" :p
15:15:50 <frosch123> hmm, i guess the same applies to townnames and such
15:16:24 <planetmaker> they have no setx issue, though, I guess
15:16:39 <frosch123> only as long as noone uses them :)
15:16:57 <frosch123> anyway, likely the same applies to colourcodes and such
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15:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't we already discuss a year ago that setx was a time bomb waiting to go off?
15:35:51 <planetmaker> something like that. I just don't recall the reasons to keep it :-)
15:36:22 <Rubidium> massive NewGRF breakage and/or NewGRFs breaking RTL support
15:36:24 <planetmaker> which obviously are ^
15:38:24 <planetmaker> Rubidium, where can newgrf use the setx?
15:38:40 <planetmaker> and where _do_ they actually do so?
15:38:53 <planetmaker> I'd assume (only) to align strings in the purchase list
15:38:58 <planetmaker> maybe in some industry windows?
15:39:25 <frosch123> planetmaker: whenever you want to indent stuff
15:39:26 <Rubidium> at least in the vehicle list, but I've seen people wanting to use it in the industry view
15:39:53 <planetmaker> Rubidium, there's two industry sets. So... FIRS will quickly adopt, so it's no problem
15:40:05 <planetmaker> and ECS... dunno wether it does use it
15:40:20 <planetmaker> but I don't recall
15:41:18 <frosch123> hmm, btw. does someone know whether the editbox works with rtl stuff?
15:41:24 <frosch123> (including rtl control codes)
15:42:17 <Rubidium> never had any complaints about it not working
15:43:03 <Guest1135> planetmaker: [19:38:07] and ECS... dunno wether it does use it - use what?
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15:43:34 <George> planetmaker: [19:38:07] and ECS... dunno wether it does use it - use what?
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15:43:42 <frosch123> George: stringcode 01 and 1F
15:43:53 <frosch123> set X resp XY position
15:44:34 <Guest1149> ECS does not use them
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16:01:31 <frosch123> so nothing to care about
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16:09:33 <planetmaker> frosch123, 2cctrainset used it also... afaik. But ... that's a set which also can adopt :-)
16:13:04 * robotboy might give in to building OpenTTD on DOS
16:17:58 <Rubidium> nah, you've been so stubborn that you should keep on going
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16:18:59 <robotboy> I might try and hack ./configure to force the OS as DOS
16:20:15 <robotboy> I added a few more *nix utils that ./configure was whinging I didn't have and one of the ones that came with cut seems to have prevented me from parseing --os=DOS to ./configure
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16:20:59 <robotboy> it tells me I passed --os=0 even if I passed --os=DOS
16:21:37 <Rubidium> maybe you've got a broken tr? (or no tr)
16:22:12 <Rubidium> although, then it would've failed earlier I'd say
16:22:48 <Rubidium> although... you're not setting endian
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16:23:16 <robotboy> I shall try getting a new tr
16:23:27 <robotboy> It was working before though
16:23:29 <Rubidium> nah, it's more lileky expr fails
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16:25:42 <robotboy> this is just to get a dedicated build for the time being
16:26:13 <robotboy> If that builds then Ill try and work out why Allegro isn't linking
16:26:33 <robotboy> or isn't being found
16:27:02 <planetmaker> hm. Indeed only unreleased newgrf are using SetX(Y). Something to bother?
16:28:19 <robotboy> where is the best place to start writing a draft article for the wiki?
16:28:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: murder it !
16:28:37 <robotboy> my userpage\articlename?
16:28:44 <andythenorth> It's a wrong feature
16:29:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it's not in my power to murder it :-)
16:29:56 <andythenorth> persuade Rubidium to do it
16:29:59 <planetmaker> but frogs are know to eat pesky insects
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16:30:58 <Alberth> andythenorth: a bit of advertising is always welcome :)
16:31:15 *** andythenorth was kicked by Rubidium (I'm assuming this is "it", right?)
16:32:20 * TruePikachu wonders if anyone has taken the time to database all of the NARS locomotives and wagons
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16:32:49 <Rubidium> "it" is time for me to make some dinner! :)
16:33:07 <TruePikachu> Lol, I just woke up
16:35:24 <TruePikachu> Stupid neighbors kept setting off fireworks from 22:00 to 00:00 last night :(
16:35:36 <robotboy> TruePikachu, try pikkawiki
16:35:46 <TruePikachu> They are illegal here in California
16:36:03 <TruePikachu> robotboy: There isn't a list of the rolling stock stats there, IIRC
16:37:03 <Alberth> andythenorth: nice, not a Mud-plugger off-road heavy hauler, but very nice
16:37:35 <TruePikachu> brb *goes to start Lynx on TTY2*
16:37:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: you've seen the *big* truck then?
16:38:10 <TruePikachu> ummm...what's the URL for pikkawiki?
16:38:10 <Alberth> no idea, most likely not
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16:39:17 <Alberth> I am just wondering that kind of vehicle it is :)
16:40:27 <planetmaker> apropos, andythenorth : I guess the two vehicle tickets you created last night / this morning belong to HEQS, not FIRS, right? ;-)
16:40:47 <TruePikachu> planetmaker: that only has the locomotives, not the rolling stock.
16:40:56 <andythenorth> planetmaker: probably
16:41:19 <planetmaker> I took the liberty to move them to HEQS :-)
16:42:46 <andythenorth> it's about 1m long and rather heavy
16:43:09 <TruePikachu> andythenorth: what is?
16:43:48 <Alberth> the vehicle in the photos
16:44:31 <planetmaker> read 8 lines back
16:45:00 <TruePikachu> That's just a URL to an image, which Lynx cannot open
16:45:01 <Alberth> that's quite long. I have never built anything that long from lego
16:45:22 <planetmaker> TruePikachu, then use a better browser
16:45:37 * TruePikachu doesn't want to start KDE to use Firefox
16:46:05 * TruePikachu will wait for his friend to come here before starting KDE
16:46:15 * planetmaker wonders why KDE should be a pre-requisite for starting FF
16:46:43 <TruePikachu> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE
16:47:22 * Alberth does not want to explain in words what is much easier explained in pictures
16:48:38 <TruePikachu> planetmaker apparently doesn't understand the function of KDE
16:49:10 <Rubidium> it's: slow your computer down? right?
16:49:16 <TruePikachu> Text mode Linux : MS-DOS :: KDE : Windows
16:49:30 <TruePikachu> Rubidium: Yes, it does slow down the computer
16:49:36 <Rubidium> firefox should be able to run in just your framebuffer
16:49:38 <Alberth> you can run an X server without window manager, if you like
16:49:39 <TruePikachu> Everything slows down a PIII
16:50:04 <Eddi|zuHause> <TruePikachu> Text mode Linux : MS-DOS :: KDE : Windows <-- that is not correct
16:50:28 <TruePikachu> It is good enough
16:50:39 <TruePikachu> I know that there are other UI interfaces out there
16:50:46 <TruePikachu> I just can't remember their names
16:50:51 <planetmaker> <TruePikachu> planetmaker apparently doesn't understand the function of KDE <-- I do. It's what I run here, too
16:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Text mode Linux : MS-DOS :: X : Windows :: KDE : explorer.exe
16:50:58 <planetmaker> But it's by far not required.
16:50:59 <Alberth> why don't you use plain X and a very light weight window manager, like twm or so?
16:51:24 <Alberth> runs easily, even at a 386
16:51:25 <planetmaker> kwm is not know to be light
16:51:39 <planetmaker> as it always wants to start kde, too
16:51:40 <Rubidium> TruePikachu: please tell me how to configure MS-DOS for 240x75 "mode" instead of just 80x25
16:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: hm, back in my days, i had a program for that
16:52:12 <TruePikachu> Rubidium: I'm not sure if it's possible, you can try "mode con lines=240 cols=75"
16:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it definitely needs a special graphics driver
16:52:45 <TruePikachu> *put the numbers in backwards
16:52:58 <TruePikachu> mode con lines=75 cols=240
16:52:58 <Rubidium> it never did work for more than 80x50 for me
16:53:18 <TruePikachu> MS-DOS is terrible for these things
16:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> my graphics card had a mode for something like 144x53
16:53:28 <Rubidium> also unicode is kinda lacking in MSDOS
16:53:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and it came with a program to switch the mode
16:53:59 <TruePikachu> Eddi|zuHause: Then it's most likely a graphics mode, which I've never had much luck for setting to the prompt
16:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: no, it was a text mode
16:54:22 <TruePikachu> O_o was the program a TSR?
16:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
16:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm really not sure anymore
16:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it was like 15 years ago...
16:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> my graphics card back then was an ET 4000
16:55:44 * TruePikachu knows Linux > MS-DOS
16:55:56 <TruePikachu> Eddi|zuHause: No wonder. It was an alien!
16:56:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if i still have the manual
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16:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "you are now the owner of a state-of-the-art video adapter that offers features and functions equal to, and beyond any other in the VGA class."
16:58:34 <Rubidium> but since you so well versed in MSDOS, maybe you can help robotboy with his MSDOS problem
16:58:35 <TruePikachu> JUST VGA? NOT SVGA? (emph, not yelling)
16:59:03 <Eddi|zuHause> "Extended text modes providing 132x24, 132x28, 132x44, 100x40 and 80x60"
16:59:32 <TruePikachu> I fixed it for you: WUXGA FTL :)
16:59:41 <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: it was an SVGA card, but saying you are better than all those is probably wrong :p
17:00:00 <Rubidium> TruePikachu: oh... a faster than light screen? Cool!
17:00:12 <Rubidium> should be good for gaming, no?
17:00:18 <TruePikachu> FTL = For the Lose
17:01:46 <TruePikachu> Sometime, someone should design a NewGRF OpenTTD locomotive which has 0hp, but can go on rail, monorail, and maglev, in order to aid in converting track systems
17:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "5. Software Utilites [...] EANSI.SYS - replaces the ANSI.SYS device driver [to support] the extended screen modes"
17:02:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: the umbrella makes the size more clear :) and I like the details of the engine
17:02:32 <andythenorth> can't spend all my time on pixels and hex :)
17:02:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "DMODE.EXE - a utility [...] to switch the [...] display modes"
17:03:23 <TruePikachu> I remember that in yesterday's OpenTTD game, I had the "Musical Coke" mines
17:03:46 <TruePikachu> My friend was labeling coal mines with how much they were supplying
17:03:58 <TruePikachu> "200 metric tones of cola!"
17:04:11 <TruePikachu> My reply was "...sounds of Coke?"
17:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he was playing toyland :p
17:05:30 <TruePikachu> No, this was all the first terrain type (I forget it's name)
17:06:40 <TruePikachu> We effectivly got a coal mine full of people belching :)
17:07:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so... this manual is: 10 pages to describe the hardware, 10 pages to describe the software, and 30 pages to describe how to get user programs from AutoCAD to Windows to use the drivers...
17:08:34 <TruePikachu> Was OpenTTD listed?
17:09:05 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but WordPerfect 5.0/5.1
17:09:12 <TruePikachu> But I wanted to use the drivers for OpenTTD!
17:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Microsoft Windows Version 2.xx
17:10:11 <TruePikachu> What DOS version?
17:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> (and a separate entry for 3.0 and 3.1 each)
17:10:47 *** Wizzleby has joined #openttd
17:11:13 * Rubidium ponders the onomatopœia of something heavy being thrown in a lake
17:11:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and something called Microsoft Windows/386 Version 2.1
17:11:45 <TruePikachu> Rubidium: If it's big enough, it'll float
17:12:25 * Eddi|zuHause ponders the view of a killfile floating away...
17:13:08 <TruePikachu> If it's dense enough, it'll sink
17:13:11 *** robotboy is now known as robobed
17:13:41 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but it's heavier now
17:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "choosing a mode that your monitor is not capable of displaying will bring unsatisfactory results"
17:16:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: the problem is that your "Lautmalerei" [why must foreign languages always use words from other foreign languages instead of just saying what they mean] results in a "*platsch*" instead of a "*plonk*", which is rather the sound of something metallic and resonant
17:16:37 <Rubidium> that's like "choosing a location that can't handle the number of people wanting to go there will bring unsatisfactory results"
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17:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i sometimes believe that the german language is way too pragmatic for people to see the genious behind it...
17:18:38 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: if it were pragmatic it would have apartheit, not apartheid
17:19:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that's just a really rarely used word...
17:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> if it were in common use, its spelling would quickly be assimilated
17:20:35 * Rubidium likes the German pronounciation of ICE, even though it's more an English abbreviation
17:21:47 <Rubidium> instead of something like "sehr schnelle zug" like the french with TGV
17:22:01 *** Hirundo has joined #openttd
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17:23:08 * planetmaker donates an 'r' to Rubidium
17:23:50 * planetmaker also wonders what is funny about German pronounciation of ICE...
17:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but "SSZ" wouldn't be a very well selling abbreviation...
17:24:34 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
17:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it would make a cool conspiracy theory if you say: the allies tried to establish english loan words and english-sounding trademarks to increase "anglophile" tendencies in the british and american zones...
17:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause> of course that would make perfect sense, as previously some nationalist movements tried to reduce the number of loan words...
17:34:29 <Rubidium> yes... it makes communication much easier if you get rid of loan words
17:36:24 <Rubidium> although there are sometimes some collisions between loan words and already existing words, e.g. email (in both Dutch and German)
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17:46:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20218 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:46:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 9 changes by josesun
17:46:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 9 changes by IPG
17:46:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: irish - 4 changes by tem
17:46:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 38 changes by junho2813
17:46:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 46 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:48:21 <planetmaker> what's the collision there with e-mail?
17:56:30 <planetmaker> that's much nicer scrolling now, Alberth. It 'feels' right now :-)
18:08:52 <frosch123> only written though, not spoken :)
18:18:06 *** TruePikachu has joined #openttd
18:20:30 <TruePikachu> For today's game, should I make it PAX focused or FGT focused, using NARS?
18:20:39 <TruePikachu> And no ECS vectors
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18:28:41 *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
18:31:56 *** devilsadvocate has quit IRC
18:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "Email" is a white covering on metal surfaces, to prevent corrosion ;)
18:33:29 * andythenorth takes advice from Wolf01
18:34:05 <andythenorth> "In this room I can see a plate, a sandwich, and an elephant. What should I do?"
18:34:43 <Wolf01> use the elwish sword with the elephant
18:34:58 <Wolf01> oh, that was zork, sorry
18:35:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you are slow :)
18:35:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: feed the sanfwich to the elephant, so you can escape
18:35:32 <andythenorth> "The elephant doesn't like sandwiches"
18:35:41 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: why? there's only like 10 lines inbetween ;)
18:36:01 <Wolf01> play fresbee with the elephant
18:36:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: I am very bad with adventure games :(
18:36:25 <Wolf01> and when it's busy catching the plate, you steal the sandwich
18:36:34 <andythenorth> I cut my teeth on BBC Basic adventure games
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18:36:45 * andythenorth likes Terkhen's suggestion
18:36:50 <Eddi|zuHause> although, Email is technically also a loan word
18:37:05 <Wolf01> "click on finish to continue" the only button is [cancel] ...
18:37:29 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, in fact it should be e-mail
18:37:44 *** TruePikachu has joined #openttd
18:37:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: no, that is not what we are talking about ;)
18:38:25 * TruePikachu comes in and hears a discussion about what the discussion is about O_o
18:39:48 <Wolf01> you are talking about lending words from english: email is a german word, e-mail should be the right lent word
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18:40:36 <Wolf01> but for ease, we always remove the - from e-mail
18:40:59 <Wolf01> or we should at least use eMail with the correct case
18:41:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Email, in this form, is a loan word from french Émail, with frankian [i.e. german] root "Smalt" or "Schmalt"
18:44:14 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
18:49:00 * planetmaker knows Email only as Emaille
18:49:02 * andythenorth should play a FIRS test game to see if industry closure is stopped
18:51:30 <TruePikachu> me is still waiting for his friend
18:51:34 *** Chillosophy has joined #openttd
18:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember a sketch a few years back, which went like "my grandfather alread had 'E-Mail', only they called it 'Email'."
18:54:16 *** fmauneko has joined #openttd
18:54:35 * TruePikachu is wondering where his friend even _is_ right now
18:57:07 * TruePikachu is glad he can store messages for later sending
19:01:35 <TruePikachu> **12:00 here, game was scheduled to begin now**
19:09:50 *** Xrufuian has joined #openttd
19:11:30 *** TruePikachu has joined #openttd
19:11:37 <TruePikachu> Come on, the server is up
19:11:57 <Xrufuian> I beleve your IP changed.
19:12:19 <TruePikachu> On my join, you should have gotten my IP
19:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> ever heard of /whois?
19:12:25 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
19:13:20 <Xrufuian> Ok. So IP is same. Looks like we're back to the same issue as yesterday.
19:13:32 <TruePikachu> What was the command with the IP tables?
19:13:59 * TruePikachu checks root's BASH log
19:14:44 <TruePikachu> Got the command, one moment...
19:15:00 <TruePikachu> (and I'll set it up as a real command in /bin)
19:16:15 <Xrufuian> And to think that you wondered why I keep Windows as my primary OS...
19:19:53 * planetmaker wonders how ignore lists work in xchat... seems to have failed
19:20:32 <planetmaker> probably got the host mask wrong
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21:53:52 <MYOB> where does liblzo2 come from? google can't find it for me
21:57:05 <MYOB> whoever did the initial patches for Haiku support appears to have built it with --disable-zlib --disable-lzo2
21:59:53 <MYOB> mainly because the configure script doesn't even find where zlib is on Haiku and there's no liblzo2 port around
22:01:23 <MYOB> just checked and the last binary build for BeOS was a 0.47-era SVN build, oh dear
22:01:31 <MYOB> my fault as I vanished for about 4 years
22:01:51 <Rubidium> yeah, long long time ago
22:03:55 <MYOB> hah, I'm still in the credits list
22:05:39 <perk111> MYOB: What's the point to use BeOS? Is it better than Unix? (I'm just been interested)
22:05:58 <MYOB> perk111 well, you don't use BeOS anymore, its Haiku now
22:06:02 <MYOB> BeOS is a full decade out of date
22:06:16 <perk111> ok, the same question for Haiku
22:06:20 <MYOB> as goes "better than Unix" - yes and no. depends entirely what you want to do with it
22:06:35 <MYOB> its a lightweight natively graphical desktop OS. Is no server
22:06:56 <perk111> does it work with modern software?
22:07:10 <MYOB> what little there is for it uyes
22:07:23 <MYOB> its highly POSIX compliant and now, finally, has GCC4.3
22:07:28 *** perk111 is now known as perk11
22:07:41 <MYOB> and QT4.somethingorother if you insist on having ports
22:09:12 <perk11> but what makes it worth to be used?
22:09:27 <MYOB> what makes any OS worth using?
22:09:58 <MYOB> its fairly stable, especially compared to BeOS R5.03
22:10:19 <Rubidium> and a fancy name is appreciated as well
22:10:41 <Rubidium> something that doesn't sound like: I sat in the office and how are we going to call this operating system
22:10:58 <Rubidium> oh... I see a window... or oh... I see a McDonalds
22:11:27 <MYOB> haiku's named after the error messages from the including browser on BeOS
22:11:35 <MYOB> which were in the form of haikus
22:12:45 <MYOB> not the most marvelous reason, but they were under legal pressure to stop calling it OpenBeOS
22:12:48 <MYOB> no, it was called NetPositive
22:13:05 <MYOB> the error messages for incorrect urls etc were in the form of haiku's
22:14:55 <perk11> thanks for enlightment, good bye
22:19:26 <Rubidium> MYOB: where can I see the (current) packaging stuff for OpenTTD on Haiku?
22:20:58 <MYOB> Rubidium packaging? we don't really have packaging...
22:21:13 <MYOB> I only found out about the existing 'port' by seeing the patches that went in
22:21:47 <Rubidium> that might've been me with Haiku in VirtualBox
22:21:55 <MYOB> there *is* a proto-packaging/port system, which I've not learnt properly
22:22:05 <MYOB> Rubidium if it is you didn't fix configure to see zlib ;)
22:22:36 <MYOB> now, if I'd remembered to connect my CD drive to virtualbox before starting I could get the data files, oh well
22:23:12 <MYOB> I do actually use it on real hardware, just rather pathetically slow real hardware generally
22:23:20 <Rubidium> the commit message states that it kinda must have worked
22:23:37 <MYOB> vbox on my desktop is faster than the laptop I generally use
22:24:21 <Rubidium> and some jrepan did make a fix for the home directory later on, which I'd assume means he could get it to find zlib as well (or he just didn't care about that)
22:24:44 <Rubidium> lzo2 is something from not that long ago
22:25:48 <Rubidium> at least, it wasn't added that long ago (we have minilzo, but that didn't quite agree with OpenTTD's CFLAGS)
22:25:58 <MYOB> current svn head has some mental graphics corruption, but that could be down to vbox
22:26:26 <Rubidium> I'd blame vbox and/or SDL
22:26:46 <MYOB> SDL is also a possibility yes
22:27:02 <MYOB> I had to 'upgrade' libs there, lets try a recompile
22:28:11 *** devilsadvocate has quit IRC
22:30:21 <MYOB> its not just graphics corruption, the window keeps creeping bigger too
22:30:25 <MYOB> so definitely sounds like SDL!
22:30:51 <Rubidium> you could try -b32bpp-simple
22:31:27 <MYOB> will do after it recompiles (about 25mins on that vbox session)
22:31:39 <MYOB> I do have Haiku physically installed on this PC but its antiquely out of date
22:32:01 <MYOB> and contains the only working build environment for VLC on Haiku that I still need to document how to set up...
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22:34:02 <MYOB> well, the only working build environment for the ancient version of VLC that has a native interface that is
22:34:07 <MYOB> someones got the newer QT one "working"
22:34:31 <MYOB> with some slight problems like, oh, not being able to play any disc based media. and IIRC, no sound....
22:34:50 <MYOB> VLC was the other thing I was port maintainer for when I got bored, see
22:42:02 <Rubidium> found the haiku ports stuff, looking at zlib I'm wondering... why does 1.2.3 have some --prefix=/boot/common and the 1.2.5 one not?
22:42:09 <Rubidium> does 1.2.5 do it automagically?
22:42:34 * Rubidium would've so much liked a zlib-config and lzo2-config :)
22:43:17 <MYOB> I'd guess it must have, I'm not that involved with haiku-ports to know
22:43:19 <MYOB> generally just use the binaries
22:43:35 <Rubidium> the 1.2.5 source has no trace of haiku (anycase)
22:43:49 <MYOB> there's a possibility beporter sets that path itself
22:43:51 <Rubidium> and only a bit of defined(__BEOS__)
22:44:18 <MYOB> boot/common is the path where it'll always be installed, however
22:45:11 <Rubidium> you might try allegro if sdl's graphics still fail
22:45:31 <Rubidium> it's performance is a bit worse than SDL's though
22:46:48 <MYOB> that compile is taking so long the screen blanker kicked in, jesus
22:47:06 <MYOB> think I might throw a more recently nightly on to the other HDD in this...
22:47:28 <MYOB> I had to buy one of the last processors going with no VT-x of course
22:48:16 <Rubidium> I just searched till I found one that did have VT-x :)
22:48:26 <MYOB> it was cheap in PC World. Suspiciously cheap, in fact...
22:48:34 <Rubidium> and if that's not what Intel uses, the Intel equivalent of that
22:48:49 *** Coco-Banana-Man has quit IRC
22:49:02 <MYOB> live in the shadow of Intel's IFO and Fab24/24-2, people don't buy AMD here
22:49:51 <Rubidium> been at Intel... wasn't that fun; Atmel was much nicer
22:51:57 <MYOB> never worked for Intel but its impossible not to know people that do here
22:57:27 <MYOB> time to try SDL from haikuport's
22:58:53 <Rubidium> anyhow, where's zlib/lzo (or where would it be?)
22:59:02 <Rubidium> or have you modified config.lib already?
23:02:22 <MYOB> I've modified config.lib for zlib
23:02:27 <Rubidium> /boot/common/include and such, right?
23:02:28 <MYOB> not even built liblzo yet
23:02:52 <MYOB> thats effectively what I have
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23:04:18 <Rubidium> can you test whether it actually works?
23:11:11 <MYOB> or more than a few as I need SDL reinstalled for it to get that far in the configure script
23:11:34 <Rubidium> use --enable-dedicated :)
23:12:58 <MYOB> I assume liblzo uses the same routine?
23:14:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20219 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: Haiku uses a "special" location for headers
23:15:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20220 /trunk/ (known-bugs.txt src/misc_gui.cpp src/string.cpp): -Fix [FS#3974]: strip non-printable characters before showing it in an edit box, so when renaming a vehicle type you won't get the "SETX stuff" that some NewGRFs use
23:17:14 <MYOB> that was painless as beating stuff in to submission for Haiku goes
23:17:38 <MYOB> before we got the GCC4 loading support it was hell trying to work around GCC 2.9.x's extremely poor C99
23:19:13 <Rubidium> you'll have to wait a while before that fix makes it into a stable release though
23:20:27 <MYOB> not like Haiku particularly understands the idea of stable releases ;)
23:20:43 <MYOB> its like ffmpeg a few years ago, they're done but there's an instant answer of "use the nightlies" when theres problems with them
23:21:27 <glx> we do the same "check if the bug is in nightlies too"
23:21:28 <Rubidium> oh... it's not going to take years, just a bit over two months
23:22:25 <MYOB> once this actually works I'll fire a build up on bebits just so people realise I'm actually alive
23:23:05 <MYOB> the last build there is an svn one also, from around the time network play started to not desynchronise ever five minutes ;)
23:23:42 <Rubidium> back then desyncs were easy... just load a NewGRF and tell nobody
23:24:15 <Rubidium> now it's becoming quite hard, and the methods to reproduce them have become much better
23:24:50 <glx> stable are as stable as possible yes
23:26:29 <Rubidium> lately all desyncs seem to be NewGRF related :(
23:27:22 <MYOB> SDL is still building *starts banging head against wall*
23:27:44 <Rubidium> in any case... happy desyncs are easier to debug now, even though everything's a lot more complex
23:28:22 * Rubidium remembers trying to do a desync hunt with an PPC OS X user that didn't know anything about compiling
23:37:58 <MYOB> methinks there's a bug in our SDL implementation
23:38:11 <MYOB> does the application query the screen resolution on opening by any chance?
23:38:16 <Rubidium> tried -b32bpp-simple?
23:38:56 <Rubidium> MYOB: it might be querying for valid resolutions, though AFAIK not the current resolution
23:40:34 <MYOB> just trying to think what could be causing the window size to continually creep bigger and bigger
23:41:45 <Rubidium> SDL gets (from OS) message: window 1 pixel bigger, passes that to OpenTTD, which sets the window 1 pixel bigger after which the whole story starts again
23:42:01 <MYOB> so it sounds like an SDL bug then
23:42:53 <MYOB> how old an SDL rev can we use?
23:44:03 <Rubidium> MYOB: I've got no idea; never tested that, but I reckon a really really old one
23:44:21 <MYOB> 1.2.12 is the oldest on haikufiles, and its not particularly old at all
23:44:35 <Rubidium> not much has changed in the sdl part of OpenTTD since 0.1.1 w.r.t. called functions
23:45:00 <Rubidium> and there isn't something checking a particular minimum version, so we haven't had problems with that either
23:46:08 <MYOB> .12 doesn't build on GCC4 Haiku it appears, lets try .13 and then the mercurial head after that...
23:46:21 <Rubidium> glx: yeah, though the Korean path stuff one was fancy as well
23:46:39 <Rubidium> MYOB: or just use allegro :)
23:46:57 <MYOB> Rubidium I want to figure out if this a bug I need to log against SDL first ;)
23:47:07 <MYOB> well, more like, find out when it became a bu
23:47:38 <glx> yes we had some fun with that too
23:49:23 <MYOB> oh I can't be bothered installing mercurial at this time of night
continue to next day ⏵
