IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-07-03
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08:13:22 <andythenorth> sorry my mistake
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10:35:56 <andythenorth> Current FIRS mixes some very high and very low industry production. It's fun :)
10:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to increase usefulness of food, you might want to increase its payment rate
10:48:09 <andythenorth> I've pondered having it feed into the industrial chain somehow (supplies), but I think that sucks
10:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that doesn't sound very well
10:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to have food as feedback, play arctic
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12:32:16 <VVG> I have stake wagon from dbset dissappear from purchase list and it's not coming back after removing and adding dbset grf back. I noticed that very very late after last time i added grf into running game. :(
12:32:47 <planetmaker> Don't remove and add grf on a running game.
12:33:49 <planetmaker> and probably the wagon can only be bought between 31.3.1959 and 25.4.1962
12:34:07 <planetmaker> unless you activate "vehicles never expire"
12:37:12 <VVG> Well, i don't recall touching actual dbset grf, nor do i come with any reason to do so. I could have changed the dbs firs extension, i did add some other train sets. Also, i started game in 2100 and it was avaible for quite some time after that. If i strat a new game in 3000 with grf list from the game where wagon is not avaible, it is avaible in new one. It seems i managed to break something by adding grf :(
12:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: dbset has a "bug" when wagon speed limits are disabled
12:40:54 <VVG> eh? i started that particular game with limits on, later disabled them
12:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the fast wagons don't appear, because they would be redundant, but the slow ones still disappear
12:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause> MB declared that into a "feature", because you should play with wagon speed limits anyway ;)
12:45:36 <VVG> never would have guessed speed limits were at fault myself
12:45:42 <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, that's one of those "undocumented feature" thingies isn't it!
12:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> ccfreak2k: it's fairly well documented meanwhile, but it was only found like 4 years after release
12:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> basically around the time when openttd implemented wagon expiration ;)
12:48:49 <VVG> It seems i did switch dbset extension grf sometime after turning off wagon speed limits, which caused some wagons to disappear
12:49:46 <VVG> I spent about an hour replacing vehicles to "safely" remove dbset to add it back with wagons and it was actually so easy...
12:50:46 <VVG> are there some other such hidded features?
12:51:06 <planetmaker> only hideous features :-P
12:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the only serious bug i know
12:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the next annoying "misfeature" is the short availability of the V140
12:54:53 <Rubidium> don't forget the short availability of updated dbsets
12:56:40 <frosch123> v140 is a cheap diesel engine
12:57:09 <frosch123> it expires early, and when it expires you can only choose between about three stupid engines or so
12:58:50 <VVG> seems i missed a bit of fun by deciding to start very late
13:00:41 <VVG> I have a save with dbsets vehicles not yet replaced. If i pause, remove grfs, switch speed limits to get wagons back, add grfs back, both main set and extension, will trains continue to run as before?
13:01:15 <Noldo_> there s no guarentees with removing grfs mid game
13:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: the V140 was a pre-war diesel engine, but due to shortage of fuel during the war, diesel traction was stopped, and after the war, the engine production wasn't picked up again
13:02:55 <VVG> ah, that's a feature bringing realism into game?
13:03:26 <Eddi|zuHause> too much realism, imho, as the war itself can't be represented...
13:13:31 <fjb> And even not realistic in any way. Only a prototype of the V40 was build.
13:14:35 <fjb> But most interesting smaller steam engines are completely missing.
13:15:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the prussian railway consisted almost exclusively of small branch line engines ;)
13:18:32 <fjb> Even the Reichsbahn build a lot of new small engines: BR24, BR94, etc...
13:20:43 <Eddi|zuHause> of course... the massive branch line closings started in the late 50's until the 70's
13:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> when the automobile started to take over
13:22:03 <fjb> And the most popular steam engines BR50 and BR43/44 are missing.
13:22:25 <fjb> The set has only the stupid BR45.
13:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> 50 was the war engine?
13:27:56 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20054 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Add: framework to check for hotkeys
13:28:27 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20055 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp gfx_type.h hotkeys.cpp hotkeys.h openttd.cpp): -Feature: save/load hotkeys to/from hotkeys.cfg
13:28:59 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20056 /trunk/src/ (hotkeys.cpp terraform_gui.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the terraform toolbar
13:29:13 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20057 /trunk/src/ (hotkeys.cpp terraform_gui.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the terraform toolbar in scenario editor
13:29:31 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20058 /trunk/src/ (hotkeys.cpp order_gui.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the vehicle orders window
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13:42:40 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20059 /trunk/src/ (hotkeys.cpp hotkeys.h main_gui.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the main window (the global hotkeys)
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13:47:03 <ouders> hi guys, trying openttd out. I was wondering why there is no coal "waiting" (thus my train is empty) on my stations which i build near the coalmines
13:47:55 <Rolvaag> in orders, tried to tell them to "full load any cargo" ?
13:48:04 <Yexo> can your train actually hold coal?
13:48:20 <ouders> let me double check ;)
13:48:26 <Yexo> if you use a newgrf with refittable wagons you need to refit it manually
13:48:56 <ouders> locomotive with 3 coal trucks
13:49:38 <ouders> the stations say: nothing waiting
13:50:14 <Yexo> how close is your station to the coal mine?
13:50:16 <ccfreak2k> Is the station's catchment (the purple squares) covering enough of the coal mine to "suck up" the coal?
13:50:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it will appear when you have a train waiting
13:50:39 <ouders> yup it's directly located
13:50:52 <Yexo> can you upload your savegame somewhere?
13:51:33 <frosch123> time to go shopping, should be quite empty now :p
13:59:05 <Yexo> that aren't coal mine, it are iron ore mines
13:59:28 <Yexo> if you click on the industry a new dinwo wil open and you'll see that is produced "xx tonnes of iorn ore"
14:00:38 <ccfreak2k> Even the sun knows iron absorbs more energy than it emits.
14:02:13 <ouders> thanks Yexo for pointing this out :)
14:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it suddenly gets very loud...
14:07:25 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: BR50 was a pre war engine. It was simplified during the war and thos simplified engines were renmaned as BR52.
14:08:07 <fjb> Too hot to go shopping...
14:09:38 <welshdragon> I'm using AP+ on my server, Where do I put data files? In /ap+ or in ./OpenTTD?
14:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what the readme sais
14:11:35 <welshdragon> Eddi|zuHause: the readme says ./openttd but in the file structure for ap+ it also has a content_download directory
14:11:46 <welshdragon> which is why I'm asking :)
14:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the readme says more than that
14:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> especially the part about working directory
14:21:38 <Ammler> I would use ~/openttd for data
14:22:22 <welshdragon> i'll have to move everything then
14:22:34 <welshdragon> seeing as it's in /ap+
14:23:09 <Ammler> well, you can also have it there, just read the readme :-)
14:23:53 <Ammler> where is the cfg you use?
14:25:23 <Ammler> Holland was 0:1 back too yesterday :-)
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14:36:29 * andythenorth stubbornly runs small trains where trucks would be better :)
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15:11:28 <welshdragon> straight answer please: Do i just specify the simple grf name in openttd.cfg or the other name (e.g. nars.grf)? Is it better in [newgrf] or in [newgrf_static]?
15:13:09 <welshdragon> as I cannot for the life of me get a savegame to work
15:13:24 <welshdragon> and there is no information on the Wiki
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15:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> welshdragon: the config is ignored for savegames
15:13:49 <frosch123> if it is not pre 0.3 or so, the grfs are defined by the save, not the config
15:14:01 <welshdragon> i'm trying to load NARS_1.sav
15:14:35 <welshdragon> Eddi|zuHause: well, how do I enable newGRF's on my server?
15:14:47 <welshdragon> as there is no documentation to help me
15:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> there is plenty of information, we can't help you if you don't point out which part of it you don't understand
15:15:31 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20060 /trunk/src/hotkeys.cpp: -Fix (r20055): strnicmp() does not exist on all platforms.
15:15:52 <welshdragon> Eddi|zuHause: i don't understand *any* of it
15:15:59 <welshdragon> the wiki states NOTHING
15:16:18 <welshdragon> The readme's are in no way helpful
15:16:44 <frosch123> welshdragon: the savegame knows which grfs it needs. you just need to put the grfs in suitable position where ottd finds them (see readme)
15:17:20 <frosch123> if you start a server, the newgrfs needs to match exactly, that is they may not differ in version resp. checksum
15:17:43 <welshdragon> frosch123: the files are there, but OpenTTD isn't reading them (the files are all in .tar format)
15:18:13 <frosch123> then start ottd with "-d grf=3" and see whether it really finds them
15:18:50 <welshdragon> frosch123: i can't do that, not when using ap+
15:19:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure ap+ can do that
15:26:58 <ouders> a city is nagging about a bus station not allowing it, any way to detect where it IS allowed to build in the city?
15:27:14 <ccfreak2k> Usually the reason gives you clues.
15:27:36 <ccfreak2k> If the city authority won't allow it, the city's attitude to you is too low.
15:27:51 <frosch123> ouders: if it is not allowed, it is not allowed in the whole city. plant trees :)
15:28:41 <ccfreak2k> "Hey, this company planted a bunch of full grown trees inexplicably. Maybe we'll let them demolish a few houses."
15:28:43 <ouders> well they are willing to give me subsidies to make a bus connection but they are not willing :D
15:31:46 <frosch123> hmm, fireworks again. i guess they are about to win or so...
15:38:51 <welshdragon> yeah, I'm not able to fix this
15:38:51 <welshdragon> The data files *are* there
15:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe incorrect rights?
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15:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm feeling surreal now...
15:46:37 <Rolvaag> They don't show Maradona anymore now
15:48:32 <Eddi|zuHause> they just did...
15:49:58 <planetmaker> omg... the vuvuzelas are now really loud :-)
15:51:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not the peak yet, i'm afraid ;)
15:51:35 <welshdragon> *sigh* this is so embarrasing
15:52:08 <welshdragon> My server's start date is 1920, but due to there being no GRF's there are no vehicles
15:55:57 <elho> gives you plenty time to prebuild infrastructure ;)
15:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't build infrastructure (except roads) without vehicles available
15:58:28 <Mazur> Hm, seems like "we" are bereft of the possibility of revanche for '78, only '74 left.
16:02:07 <planetmaker> Rubidium: could you trigger a compile run of the h2h branch when it is convenient?
16:04:19 <welshdragon> frosch123: then start ottd with "-d grf=3" and see whether it really finds them < that just caused AP+ to crash
16:04:49 <frosch123> can't you run it just without ap+ for now?
16:07:07 <planetmaker> welshdragon: but does it work without ap+?
16:07:31 <welshdragon> i'm *not* running a server without Autopilot
16:08:11 <planetmaker> welshdragon: you may not want that. But making sure that openttd runs clean is the first step
16:08:15 <welshdragon> I don't particularly want to sit and try to decipher what the console is telling me
16:08:16 <planetmaker> ap+ is only the 2nd
16:08:50 <planetmaker> when we run into problems we frequently give it also a shot w/o ap+
16:09:12 <welshdragon> planetmaker: the config/data files are all in the ap+ directory
16:09:25 <planetmaker> in our isntalls: yes
16:09:56 <welshdragon> and it's the same with mine
16:12:43 <planetmaker> well. Does the game load w/o ap+?
16:12:48 <planetmaker> Does a vanilla game run?
16:19:55 <welshdragon> planetmaker: a vanilla game runs without the GRF's
16:22:23 <welshdragon> but that doesn't help me...
16:23:48 <glx> you can start openttd like ap+ does without ap+
16:24:01 <glx> just run it from the same location
16:24:59 <planetmaker> openttd -g path/to/savegame -dgrf=1
16:25:00 <welshdragon> but I can't seem to use the in-game console
16:26:16 <welshdragon> that's not the issue now
16:26:19 <welshdragon> I can't seem to use the in-game console
16:26:32 <welshdragon> which means I can't debug...
16:26:56 <glx> weird, the console should be the terminal where it's started
16:27:30 <frosch123> doesn't the ingame console only show client-side stuff? i.e. it is totally useless in this case?
16:31:12 <Ammler> welshdragon: how do you start ap+?
16:31:24 <Ammler> the same step you can start openttd
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16:41:54 <welshdragon> Ammler: ./autopilot.tcl
16:42:18 <Ammler> now you run openttd -D -dgrf=1 the same way
16:42:51 <Ammler> (1 is enough to see, if you have missing grfs)
16:45:50 <welshdragon> so ./openttd -D -dgrf=1 save.sav?
16:47:30 <welshdragon> so ./openttd -D -dgrf=1 -g save.sav?
16:48:24 <frosch123> yes, if both save.sav and openttd are in the working directory :p
16:48:55 <welshdragon> aah, excellent, thanks glx
16:50:31 <welshdragon> ok, so that's not worked
16:50:45 <welshdragon> the grf's are missing
16:51:14 <glx> you can install them using the console
16:51:46 <welshdragon> 'rcon content update' < not found :(
16:51:57 <welshdragon> there's no rcon password
16:52:10 <glx> no rcon access without password
16:52:17 <glx> but you can use the server console
16:52:56 <welshdragon> it's spewing debug stuff
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16:53:48 <glx> you can still type in the console
16:54:37 <welshdragon> glx: when it's spewing debug stuff out every 30 seconds? i don't think so :P
16:55:25 <welshdragon> the GRF's failed to load
16:56:39 <glx> you can type "debug_level net0" :)
16:56:50 <glx> will make the output more quiet ;)
16:56:54 <welshdragon> how is this helping me?
16:57:09 <glx> anyway you can type while the debug is outputed
16:57:22 <welshdragon> The GRF Files are on the server
16:57:45 <welshdragon> they were in the ap+ working directory, not in the openttd one
16:58:00 <welshdragon> which is why loading the game failed
16:58:12 <welshdragon> so: we're back to square one.
16:58:51 <frosch123> ammler lied, you need at least -dgrf=2 to see present files
16:59:40 <welshdragon> yeah, even I can see that the grf's were missing
16:59:44 <Ammler> oh, you have openttd now installed locally?
17:00:18 <frosch123> oh, wait, grf=1 is enough
17:00:22 <welshdragon> it was installed on the server, yes
17:00:27 <Ammler> welshdragon: on the console, you don't need rcon
17:00:34 <frosch123> [2010-07-03 17:49:56] dbg: [grf] Scan complete, found 4 files <- welshdragon: it only found 4 grfs
17:00:38 <frosch123> so likely only the basesets
17:01:03 <welshdragon> frosch123: yep, as i have already said that all the data exists in the ap+ directory
17:01:23 <welshdragon> not in the directory of openttd dedicated
17:01:27 <frosch123> directly in the ap+ directory, or in a "data" subdirectory?
17:01:38 <frosch123> then try the latter
17:02:00 <welshdragon> in ap+/content_download/Data
17:02:06 <Ammler> I would recommend ~/.openttd, so you can share the same data with 2nd server
17:02:43 <welshdragon> mv doesn't work on the directory -_-
17:03:06 <Ammler> just run the content commands and check where openttd saves the data :-)
17:03:52 <glx> -dmisc3 to see the personal dir
17:04:07 <glx> (will also show found files)
17:04:52 <welshdragon> openttd -D -dgrf=1 -g NARS_1.sav just starts spewing debug shit again
17:05:07 <welshdragon> how do i stop it from doing that? (just edit my command)
17:06:02 <glx> and don't care if there's some output in the middle of the command, it's not a problem
17:06:25 <welshdragon> done, and downloading the data files
17:06:44 <welshdragon> but it's not telling me which directory they're saved in
17:08:08 <Ammler> hmm, does ap+ support that?
17:08:27 <welshdragon> ap+'s config is in ap+
17:08:49 <Ammler> I would recommend to use the same config for both
17:09:40 <Ammler> then why do you have the cfg in .openttd?
17:09:51 <welshdragon> as there are two copies of it?
17:10:09 <welshdragon> I've copied the ap+/ version into .openttd/
17:11:46 <Ammler> if the working dir has a cfg, it will use this
17:11:54 <Ammler> else the one from .openttd
17:12:18 <Ammler> ap+ does specifiy it start argument
17:12:40 <glx> and the location of openttd.cfg determines where data is saved
17:14:10 <welshdragon> yeah, but: you are not answering my question: the .grf files for ap+ existed in tar format in ap+/content_download/data, and yet these data files cannot be found
17:17:50 <planetmaker> welshdragon: yes, that's no valid content dir
17:18:46 <welshdragon> planetmaker: eh? I'd like to contest that claim
17:18:55 <planetmaker> yes. rightfully :-)
17:20:58 <welshdragon> planetmaker: the content works quite happily in content_download on other operating systems, why should Linux be the exception?
17:21:22 <planetmaker> [19:18] <welshdragon> planetmaker: eh? I'd like to contest that claim
17:21:24 <planetmaker> [19:18] <planetmaker> yes. rightfully :-) <-- :-) yes!
17:25:18 <welshdragon> glx: when starting? or while the server is running?
17:26:18 <PeterT> but we have a global openttd executable ;-)
17:26:28 <PeterT> so I think global GRFs should be fine
17:26:38 <PeterT> even if the config is local, I'm not sure exactly
17:26:43 <welshdragon> the content works quite happily in content_download on other operating systems, why should Linux be the exception?
17:28:05 <Ammler> we have grfs in ~/.openttd/data and in ~/ap+/data
17:28:10 <glx> ,..._searchpaths[SP_AUTODOWNLOAD_DIR] = str_fmt("%s%s", _personal_dir, "content_download" PATHSEP); <-- content download seems to be always in personal dir
17:29:06 <Ammler> it dosn't matter, where openttd is installed
17:29:18 <Ammler> it does matter, where you start it, and which cfg it uses
17:30:20 <glx> Ammler: but with ap+/content_download/data I don't think ap+ is personal dir
17:30:47 <Pikel> I placed signals but my trains are still waiting for a free path, I don't get what I missed
17:30:48 <glx> then it should be ap+/data
17:31:13 <glx> content_download is always personal_dir/content_download
17:31:28 <Ammler> that I don't know, we have symlinked those
17:31:48 <welshdragon> ok, so: simple answer: Move everything to a new dir called ap+/data?
17:32:18 <Ammler> make a symlink to ~/.openttd/content_download
17:32:48 <Ammler> else you will get troubles again, when you download new content
17:32:55 <welshdragon> but all the data is in ap+/content_download
17:33:06 <Ammler> and make a bugreport ;-)
17:33:12 <glx> move conten_download to ~/.openttd
17:33:54 <elho> Pikel: so they are standing in front of red signals now? or did you place them the wrong way around so that they are standing on the wrong side of one-way signals maybe?
17:33:58 <welshdragon> glx: no, as the working directory isn't in .openttd
17:34:12 <Ammler> lrwxrwxrwx 1 openttd users 40 2009-05-11 00:31 content_download -> /home/openttd//.openttd/content_download
17:34:17 <Pikel> elho: they stand in stations and never leave
17:34:18 <glx> not a problem, personal dir is also checked
17:34:40 <Pikel> and I set 2-way signals
17:35:10 <Ammler> glx: but that can be considered as bug
17:35:26 <glx> content_download is always in personal dir
17:35:42 <Ammler> download goes to workingdir/contnet_download, but openttd doesn't read from it?
17:36:05 <elho> Pikel: you need one on every track connected to the station if these merge before another signal. otherwise the trains "see" each other and won't drive onto the occupied tracks
17:36:19 <glx> download goes to content_download and content_download is in personal dir
17:36:33 <Ammler> then I wonder, why we made the symlink
17:37:22 <planetmaker> Ammler: we made a symlink for that dir. So that the personal dir is the same for all installs
17:37:45 <planetmaker> or something like that
17:38:07 <Ammler> download goes to workingdir/content_download :-)
17:38:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:38:54 <Ammler> but maybe it wouldn't, if there is no such directory
17:39:04 <glx> Ammler: because workingdir is personal dir in that case
17:39:21 <Ammler> that would need special compile option
17:39:31 <Ammler> and then, it wouldn't read from .openttd
17:42:00 <glx> hmm personal_dir can be empty it seems
17:44:11 <Pikel> elho: ya I am trying to grasp the simple stuff first
17:44:12 <glx> openttd -c config.cfg gives empty personal dir I think
17:44:56 <Pikel> bah, now they are stopping at signals lol
17:45:49 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20061 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:49 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:49 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:49 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:45:49 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
17:45:51 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:51 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:49:14 <glx> then content_download dir is just "content_download", ie in working dir
17:57:20 <glx> so personal dir is always openttd.cfg dir
17:59:52 <elho> Pikel: but you do see which signals are red. and can follow the tracks from there to the point they connect to some other track that is obviously used.
18:10:31 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20062 /trunk/src/ (airport_gui.cpp hotkeys.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the airport toolbar
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18:16:53 <planetmaker> hu? _Customizable_?
18:18:13 <planetmaker> oh :-) I missed all the last commits. Nice!
18:19:10 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20063 /trunk/src/ (dock_gui.cpp hotkeys.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the dock toolbar
18:26:48 <nicfer> is there some server with multiple objectives?
18:28:41 <andythenorth> Yexo: do we get a customisable key to open the road construction gui?
18:28:59 <Yexo> wait till I've implemented the main toolbar
18:29:10 <nicfer> like, after X years, score the companies with the biggest claimed town, the one with the biggest company value, etc.?
18:30:28 <andythenorth> Yexo gets cookies
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18:34:30 <Wolf01> [20:30:36] <andythenorth> Yexo gets cookies <- a lot of cookies
18:41:01 <nicfer> speaking of GUIs, what about merging the road and rail building buttons?
18:41:33 <nicfer> a bit gimmicky I guess
18:44:06 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: alberth * r20064 /trunk/src/water_map.h: -Doc: Document water tile query and helper functions.
18:44:29 * Yexo wonders why the "graphs" button in the main toolbar has the id "TBN_GRAPHICS"
18:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> bad back-translation?
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19:19:49 <waterfoul> do exclusive transport rights effect industries?
19:20:24 <frosch123> they affect all stations with the town's name in their name
19:20:53 <frosch123> so with sufficient stationspread you can work around it...
19:21:17 <waterfoul> so then all stations with that town name in it don't work anymore?
19:21:43 <Alberth> unless you own the exclusive rights :)
19:22:00 <waterfoul> k i am playing a game agains bots and one is anoying me }:D
19:22:43 <waterfoul> the interesgint thing is the mine and my station belong to Ronthill City but his bellongs to sendtown
19:26:00 <frosch123> then you need to buy exclusive rights in sendtown
19:26:48 <svip> It must have been a year since I was last here.
19:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and you missed every bit of it.
19:27:45 <svip> How is the graphics going?
19:29:18 <Sacro> note the version number :p
19:30:17 <svip> I should really reboot into Linux.
19:30:23 <svip> Windows makes EVERYTHING difficult.
19:33:35 <svip> I was totally trying out Railroads!
19:33:44 <svip> And all it did was make me want to play OpenTTD again.
19:36:08 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20065 /trunk/src/ (hotkeys.cpp toolbar_gui.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the main toolbar
19:37:20 <Yexo> andythenorth: ^^ compile r20065, start it, quit, then modify "build_road = SHIFT+F8" under "[maintoolbar]" in hotkeys.cfg
19:37:52 <svip> What be this 'variety distribution'?
19:38:51 <Yexo> part of the map will be flat, part of the map will be mountanious
19:38:55 <planetmaker> Ha. I shall do that, too, Yexo
19:39:07 <planetmaker> That's the most annoying hotkey till today
19:39:35 <svip> Yexo: Can I suggest tooltips for future revisions?
19:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> can i have 'A' toggle between autorail and autoroad?
19:40:35 <Yexo> svip: sure, just make a list of tooltips and post it at bugs.openttd.org
19:40:54 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: 'A' is currently broken, it'll only work if you have the rail toolbar already open
19:41:30 <Yexo> and having 'A' -> open rail toolbar, 'A' again -> open road toolbar will never be possible
19:42:21 <Yexo> 'A' with rail tool bar open -> autorail, 'A' with road toolbar open->autoroad, 'A' with neither rail nor road toolbar open autorail/autoroad (chose one) will be possible
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19:43:15 <VVG> By chance, anyone have a good example of 3 lines in all-to-all station entrance?
19:43:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what i'd like to have is:
19:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> 1) if rail toolbar is open, and autorail is not selected, select autorail
19:43:28 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) if rail toolbar is open, and autorail is selected, select autoroad
19:43:29 <Eddi|zuHause> 3) if road toolbar is open, and autoroad is not selected, select autoroad
19:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> 4) if road toolbar is open, and autoroad is selected, select autorail
19:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> 5) if neither toolbar is open, select autorail
19:44:19 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: and do you also see a way to implement that without creating a special case for 'A' ?
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19:44:47 <Alberth> perhaps we should use squirrel to define hotkeys :)
19:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: what's so problematic about a special case?
19:45:41 <Alberth> you must be able to define it in the hotkeys config, for starters
19:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> a global hotkey that depends on the two variables 'open toolbar' and 'selected tool'
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19:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> call it 'the magic autotool' key
19:46:21 <Yexo> only there is no varialbe "open toolbar"
19:46:45 <Yexo> there is a list of open windows, each window is given a key and asked if it's handled
19:47:15 <Yexo> each window checks that key against it's own list of hotkeys and if a hotkey it matches it returns "handled"
19:48:01 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I just looked at openttd commits, didn't see your 'transfer and leave empty' patch anywhere
19:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and this key would be handled by the main window (global), where it can check all the open windows
19:48:11 <Yexo> planned but not yet implemented: if none of the open windows matched the key, iterate over a all toolbars and see if one of the (not-open) toolbars has a hotkey defined as global that matches the key
19:48:17 <Yexo> if so, open that toolbar and give it the key
19:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there must be functions checking which toolbar is open, e.g. when another toolbar gets opened, the old one must be closed
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19:49:10 <Yexo> all windows have a class and number which is a unique combination for open windows
19:49:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth: don't tell me
19:49:28 <Yexo> all toolbars share the same class and number so any open one is closed when another is opened
19:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't decide from the outside which toolbar is currently open, only that one is open?
19:50:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: is it on flyspray for consideration?
19:50:41 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: of course it's possible via a workaround, but it's not trivial
19:50:55 <Yexo> nor am I sure I want to create such an exception for a special auto (rail/road) key
19:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the second most common situation where i need the mouse
19:51:44 <Yexo> you could map 'Z' as global hotkey for autoroad for example
19:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the most common being the "replace signal" button in the signal gui
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19:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant on german keyboard layout, 'Z' and 'Y' are switched :)
19:56:00 <svip> How is that you drag signals all the way to the end?
19:56:12 <planetmaker> but that's not new :-P
19:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> hey... the cat can totally read my mind...
19:56:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i had the balcony door open (in my back), and i thought "hm, it might be dangerous if the cat walks out there"
19:57:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and literally in that second, i hear the cat "miau" from the outside...
20:01:04 <clum> why dont servers enforce the no blocking rule more strictly ;_;
20:01:42 <Alberth> servers don't enforce anything, admins do (or not)
20:02:27 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20066 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix: When rescanning NewGRFs resp. after content download also check whether compatible grfs are available now.
20:02:41 <Alberth> perhaps your playing style is less universal than you thought?
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20:10:52 <svip> I have totally forgotten how to use signals.
20:10:58 <svip> ;-; And the interface ain't helping one bit.
20:11:16 <fjb> And some admins interpret that rule in a very strange way...
20:12:35 <fjb> Select rail menu, select build signal button, select signal click on piece of railway.
20:13:20 <svip> I am talking about the appropriate signals to get trains in and out of stations.
20:13:29 <fjb> What else do you expect in a tooltip?
20:13:41 <svip> Explain what each signal do.
20:14:00 <fjb> The appropriate signal depends on your track layout.
20:14:14 <svip> Yexo: yes, just reading up on it.
20:14:30 <fjb> And way to big for a tooltip.
20:14:46 <svip> The make a short tutorial.
20:15:09 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20067 /trunk/src/ (gfx_type.h hotkeys.cpp hotkeys.h): -Add: special modifier (GLOBAL) to mark hotkeys as global hotkeys
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20:15:51 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: in openttd, tooltips are on right click...
20:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> since the hover-tooltips were invented later...
20:17:38 <stillunknown> Is there a good reason for train profitability to go down over time?
20:18:04 <nicfer1> ex's server #1 crashed?
20:18:25 <stillunknown> but wouldn't my income rise too?
20:19:35 <fjb> Income raises, but expenses raise faster.
20:19:50 <Alberth> stillunknown: game mechanics prefer new trains
20:20:05 <stillunknown> But at some point there are no newer trains.
20:20:29 <Alberth> never reached that point :)
20:20:48 <stillunknown> So at some point i'll have to stop playing?
20:20:59 * fjb usually gets bored after 200 years.
20:21:33 <fjb> You don't have to stop. Live with decreasing income.
20:22:16 <stillunknown> But some lines go from pretty profitable to borderline.
20:22:49 <Alberth> fjb: I have that after 30-40 years or so :)
20:23:25 * stillunknown hasn't touched 70% of the map after 150 years
20:23:49 <fjb> In which year did you start the game?
20:24:26 <Alberth> then your map is too large :)
20:25:09 <stillunknown> It's just that with ECS it takes a while to get a resource up to high levels, which means you spend years on a single connection.
20:25:56 <nicfer1> heh, my openttd crashed while trying to get a lacking newgrf
20:26:56 <stillunknown> I did make the mines permanent, but otherwise it's a nice challenge to get a working network.
20:27:08 <fjb> Starting the game around 1850 gives you a lot more time. But it is wise to disable inflation then.
20:28:31 <stillunknown> fjb: time for what?
20:28:52 <fjb> Time to buld a bigger network.
20:28:52 <stillunknown> (assuming you disable inflation)
20:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <stillunknown> But at some point there are no newer trains. <-- when the engine was bought counts, not when the engine was developed. so if you replace all vehicles every 6 months, you get better ratings ;)
20:29:21 <stillunknown> Eddi|zuHause: that's a bit expensive to do
20:29:27 <stillunknown> the ratings are not the issue
20:29:48 <fjb> Then it is the inflation. Is it high or low?
20:29:50 * Alberth ponders whether the FAQ explains the 'disable engines expiration' thing
20:30:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not very expensive, you get most of the price back for selling a 6 months old vehicle
20:30:39 <stillunknown> fjb: inflation == interest rate?
20:30:57 <stillunknown> then where do i find it?
20:31:16 <Alberth> advanced settings -> economy -> disable inflation iirc
20:31:53 <stillunknown> that doesn't say high or low, just on and off
20:33:17 <Alberth> I don't know of places where inflation is shown
20:33:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the interest rate defines the inflation (although the way it is done is fairly silly imho)
20:34:24 <stillunknown> So the age of my vehicle will directly affect how much i get paid for transport or not?
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20:34:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it affects how much cargo you get
20:36:40 <stillunknown> That isn't going to help me.
20:37:04 <fjb> If the trains are still full the inflation is the problem.
20:37:22 <stillunknown> Then i'll turn that off.
20:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it won't magically unwind the inflation that already happened
20:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> inflation turns itself off after 170 years
20:38:06 <fjb> But it will stop getting worse.
20:40:32 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20068 /trunk/src/ (hotkeys.cpp rail_gui.cpp rail_gui.h toolbar_gui.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the rail toolbar
20:45:01 <planetmaker> Anyone gimp user: how can I display the palette in use so that I can specifically pick one of the colours from it?
20:45:50 <frosch123> it have that opened by default, no idea where to find it :)
20:46:01 <Ammler> check one of the windows
20:46:49 <frosch123> windows->dockable->colors maybe
20:47:17 <planetmaker> yes, thank you frosch123 !
20:47:44 <frosch123> hmm, or "palettes" actually
20:48:14 <planetmaker> nah, it really was fenster->andockbare dialoge->farbpalette
20:48:26 <frosch123> indeed, "colormap" :p
20:48:59 <planetmaker> and now I need the reference :-)
20:49:03 <Ammler> openttd teached me to not use German localizations anymore :-P
20:50:44 <stillunknown> are there any full new industries besides ECS?
20:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i always use german localisation as much as possible
20:51:37 <waterfoul> I remember someone talking about prioritizing one exit of a station over another, anyone know where that is?
20:52:10 <Ammler> if not here, then maybe at #openttdcoop
20:52:38 <planetmaker> Hm... the special colours are all white in that palette...
20:52:53 <Ammler> well, that was before some people here became translators ;-)
20:54:12 <svip> :( Where did invisible trees go?
20:56:04 <svip> Well, it uses to be an option in advanced settings.
20:56:27 <frosch123> Ammler: do you prefer the invisible pink unicorn?
20:56:55 <frosch123> transparency settings are easier to use than advanced settings :)
20:57:40 <svip> The interface is confusing me!
21:11:50 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
21:17:25 <fjb> Lucky AI, repaired its bus moments before my train came.
21:18:15 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20069 /trunk/src/hotkeys.cpp: -Fix (r20055): Make valgrind happy.
21:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> why do you even play with breakdowns on?
21:26:11 <lennard> to provide more of a challenge?
21:28:08 <andythenorth> #openttd logs missing for July :o
21:28:28 <Ammler> that is wrong addresss
21:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we kicked mikegrb recently
21:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and apparently he didn't notice yet
21:29:42 <Ammler> it was kicked because the bot wasn't lobotomized
21:40:45 <svip> Combining pre-signals with path signals.
21:43:57 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20070 /trunk/src/ (9 files):
21:43:57 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Feature: when none of the open windows handles a keypress, try all toolbars for global hotkeys
21:43:57 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: Users that have run a version between r20056 and r20068 should delete their hotkeys.cfg to reset the terraform toolbar hotkeys to default
21:45:22 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Because there is no need to upgrade anything without breakdowns.
21:45:59 <fjb> Combining re and path signals? Why?
21:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: yes there is.
21:48:26 <svip> fjb: So your trains can enter and exit stations at the same time. O_O
21:48:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and there would be more, if someone reworked the rating calculation
21:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: they can already do that.
21:49:03 <svip> Just a path signal at the entry.
21:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> remove all "exit" signals
22:03:19 <Sacro> Anyone here have a copy of Delphi Games Creator?
22:03:26 <Sacro> I can't find a mirror of it anywhere :(
22:05:55 <frosch123> what about the first google hit? or does that nor work?
22:06:24 <Sacro> they all link back to the same dead mirror
22:15:57 <elho> svip: they would still be nice to do prio stuff inside pbs i guess ;)
22:17:04 <svip> elho: I always wondered why path and pre-signals was not just considered 'addons' to regular signals and thus could be combined.
22:17:20 <svip> And if a entry and exit signal was combined it became a combo signal.
22:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: "pre" and "exit" signals simply don't make any sense in combination with "path" signals
22:26:03 <elho> interesting if the inaugurated time of the company window is correct, i actually started this game 1950. weird.
22:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: small mind experiment: a "pre" signal is red, when all "exit" signals are red. "path" signals are always red, unless a train is just about to go through. thus, "path pre" signals would only be able to go green if the next signal is just about to turn red
22:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: why would that be weird?
22:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: what is your prospected use case of such a signal?
22:29:15 <svip> Eddi|zuHause: Known a track ahead of it.
22:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: but that's not how it works
22:30:17 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: at least not if you naively copy the behaviour of the existing pre-signals
22:30:28 <PeterT> ini: invalid value 'Arctic' for 'game_creation.landscape' <-- what are the valid entires for this entry?
22:30:30 <svip> In any case; it should be possible to make signals that can turn red on 'disasters'.
22:30:42 <PeterT> for Arctic, specifically
22:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: tried "arctic"?
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22:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe "subarctic"?
22:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause> static const char *_climates = "temperate|arctic|tropic|toyland";
22:31:28 <PeterT> how do you save&quit from arctic?
22:31:30 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: because i know that i did not use any early trains, and thought it must have been because i started late. but i guess i spent a lot of time on planes then
22:32:15 <PeterT> how do you get it out of insert mode?
22:32:44 <svip> How to use vim: :wq [enter] nano [enter]
22:33:09 <PeterT> nano isn't installed here - but you're right, I would use it
22:33:10 <Eddi|zuHause> these are like THE most essential things to know about vim...
22:35:06 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: and the most wrong. it is :q! that you need if you do not want your files molested ;)
22:35:56 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: but he wanted to save the file, not have it safe! :)
22:37:55 <elho> ah, well. i refered to THE essential thing you need to know :)
22:43:04 <Eddi|zuHause> First we had fish&chips, then we had steak, next we'll have paella!
22:44:05 * Mazur was born and bred in vi.
22:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the ! is redundant ;)
22:45:29 <Rubidium> like when saving fails it should still force-quit
22:46:18 <Rubidium> that force save will fail
22:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like the thing i'd rather have an interactive input for...
22:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... after the paella we'll try cheese :)
22:48:03 <elho> that does force save, too?
22:48:04 <Mazur> Mazur-made cheeseburgers.
22:48:28 <elho> logic would imply :w!q!, but then it is vi, what do i expect ;P
22:49:04 <Mazur> vi is curses based ex, which is a mild improvement over ed, which was the first editor.
22:49:48 <Mazur> Basically as old as Unix itself.
22:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the same way as openttd is based on ttd which is a mild improvement over tt
22:50:32 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i forgot tt-we
22:50:53 <Mazur> Of course, vi was developed a tad more after it's invention. ex was mostly ignored, I suspect.
22:51:16 <Mazur> And I didn't mention sed.
22:54:23 * Mazur is wondering whether moving block trains are only in his mind or not.
22:54:39 <elho> Mazur: it is as old nd does not even come with its own os :P
22:55:22 <Mazur> emacs almost _is_ it own os.
22:55:34 <svip> It just lacks a good text editor.
22:55:42 <svip> Luckily, you can run vim in emacs.
22:56:21 <elho> svip: if you actually do that, you need a long eliza session badly :P
22:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> firefox is also almost its own os
22:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not an argument
22:56:55 <svip> And together with a friend, are we developing ed's successor; brow.
22:56:59 <Mazur> I never took part in the great war, (emacs-vi), but I have my preference.
22:57:03 <svip> brow is to browsers what ed is to editors.
22:57:24 <svip> That's right! You have to specify what parts of the page you want to see.
22:57:25 <elho> the problem with firefox is that it is an os likely someone else is using instead of you :P
22:57:34 <svip> Mazur: No, it will me graphical, but with a command line interface.
22:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: this completely fails, because you can't know the speed of the train ahead
22:58:15 <svip> All trains have their current speeds listed.
22:59:05 <svip> When a train gets to the entry, the system checks the check zone for any trains, if it can predict that the faster train could get around the slower train using the suggested method, it will suggest that.
22:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: firstly, because you can't know whether the mentioned train is actually "ahead" when the pathfinder spits out the "suggested" path.
22:59:13 <svip> Otherwise, it will send it through the check zone.
22:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: the pathfinder would need to check EVERY train on the map
22:59:28 <Eddi|zuHause> on every pathfinding operation
22:59:36 <Eddi|zuHause> which is plain impossible
22:59:48 <svip> Well, that is only because you cannot ask what trains are on a track.
23:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you can do that, but it's extremely time intensive
23:00:09 <svip> Instead you have to ask trains where they are.
23:00:16 <elho> you could add turbo-boost for trains and have the second one jump over the first ;)
23:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> which is simply not possible to do in a task that is run as often as pathfinding
23:00:42 <svip> Eddi|zuHause: Because the track does not know and actually searches for it itself?
23:00:54 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: so there is no pointer back from tiles to vehicles, just the other way around?
23:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: no, there's no space to store that, and there may be multiple vehicles on the same tile
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23:01:40 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: there's a tile hash function, though
23:01:53 <Eddi|zuHause> which is e.g. used in collision detection
23:02:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and there's a function to look up the train from a given track reservation
23:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but like i said, it's too time intensive
23:03:05 <svip> This must be doable. Otherwise we cannot figure optimising.
23:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> things don't suddenly get "doable" just because you said so...
23:03:59 <svip> But maybe the problem is the pathfinder.
23:04:17 <svip> And the current implementation does not allow for this.
23:04:58 <svip> How often is the pathfinder called on a train?
23:05:39 * elho is not even sure if these signals would be attractive
23:06:00 <svip> elho: Imagine a break down in the check zone.
23:06:14 <svip> Of course, this will only be attractive on very long stretches of track.
23:07:05 <svip> elho: You may even argue; 'why not just build an additional track on the right side instead?'
23:07:09 <svip> Would do the job as well.
23:07:27 <elho> if you play with breakdowns, then one lane will be blocked. how is smart speed prediction necessary for a broken train that just sits there?
23:08:02 <svip> I mean, that now the zone is blocked.
23:08:32 <svip> In a regular situation, the train would just have gone straight ahead, because it could not see that far ahead.
23:08:52 <svip> This system is basically a 'lookahead' system.
23:09:09 <elho> your initial example was about a fast train overtaking a slow one smartly. now one of them ist standing still, that only makes things easier, no?
23:09:36 <svip> But it would be the same calculations.
23:09:47 <svip> You'd argue that a stopped train is a *very* slow train.
23:09:50 <elho> ie. it shousd overtake in any case which works fine with normal signals
23:10:10 <svip> Does the pathfinder also check for broken trains?
23:10:35 <svip> Even if it is a few signals ahead?
23:13:53 <elho> no idea, never play with breakdowns
23:14:23 <elho> but i guess a junction to the second track before every signal is what does the trick if not
23:14:42 <waterfoul> is there a way to tun on funding of source indistries?
23:15:01 <waterfoul> or make a map with only source industries - farms and allow building of farms
23:15:58 <elho> waterfoul: if it is not in advanced settings, then cheats menu maybe. dunno off hand
23:15:59 <Yexo> waterfoul: advanced settings->economy->industries->manual primary industry construction methos: as other industries
23:16:28 <waterfoul> i just found prospecting, that works
23:16:59 <waterfoul> I don't just want to be able to place the sources as I want it to be semi realistic so that works
23:20:10 <elho> svip: i think triggerplates for signals and spee limit signs/signals would be far more interesting and you could build some oventake tracks from these, too. the trigger plates
23:20:22 <elho> would get you arbitrary look-ahead
23:20:38 <svip> Any information on trigger platers?
23:20:43 <svip> Further information, that is.
23:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> <svip> How often is the pathfinder called on a train? <-- on entering the next tile, when that tile is a crossing tile and has no reservation.
23:22:53 <elho> would be an element to place than makes the signas you associate (connect) it too go red when a train is in the signalblock where the trigger plate is (alternatively on the tile of the plate, then you'd have to place more, but might be yet more flexible)
23:23:00 <svip> Eddi|zuHause: That is... quite often.
23:23:05 <svip> Sounds like active waiting to me.
23:24:16 <Eddi|zuHause> alternatively also: on arrival at the next signal where the reservation ends.
23:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> in path signal blocks you tend to have less pathfinder calls than in block signal blocks
23:25:29 <elho> hmm, so faster fastforward mode would be a pbs advantage :)
23:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause> well, this mostly gets balanced out by having more pathfinder calls on arriving at a path signal when the following path is blocked
23:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause> but that can be configured
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23:56:38 <svip> Am I one of the ones who play with no 90 degree turns?
23:57:36 <waterfoul> but I haven't been playing for more than a few days so.....
23:57:52 <svip> I like the extra challenge when constructing rails.
23:58:51 * waterfoul hates the unrealism of 90s
23:59:50 <svip> I was just looking at some examples of signalling.
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