IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-10-30
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00:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> is it possible that apache is extraordinarily slow?
00:12:49 <Aali> i would say yes but i have no idea what you're talking about
00:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> for my diploma thesis i have to provide a webservice interface to my program, when i run that as a server on localhost, i get replys instantly, if i run them on an apache on localhost, replies take >1s
00:15:08 <SmatZ> is it possible there are too many requests and too few worker threads?
00:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> no, only one request at a time
00:16:40 <Aali> apache is not that crappy
00:17:41 <thingwath> first request in row, or every request?
00:18:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the example client calls each function of the webservice once with a sample input. that's like 10 calls overall
00:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause> some functions take actual time to calculate, but others should just fetch trivial data
00:20:21 <Aali> and everything takes >1s?
00:21:10 <eMJay> Eddi|zuHause: I would suggest that since apache hosts a majority of websites, it is not the problem exactly
00:21:35 <eMJay> if there was a >1s lag on each request, it would have fallen out of popularity by now
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00:22:54 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: is the webservice connecting to something else, like a database?
00:22:57 <thingwath> I would try strace :)
00:24:13 * Rubidium has seen apache behave *very* slowly when the hdd was almost full
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01:11:11 * Belugas tries to revive his work on newobjects
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01:26:33 <Char> i guess i am too stupid for this ECS vector stuff
01:27:05 <Char> it does not seem to work
01:27:35 <glx> grf order is important for ECS
01:28:13 <glx> and the other in grfid order
01:28:51 <Char> why is there a town vector and a basic vector?
01:30:39 <Char> SmatZ: yeah, thanks, but i read that already (i said i was too stupid)
01:30:56 <Char> what bothers me, though, is that i cannot build the vehicles to transport the stuff
01:31:23 <glx> lv4 should work correctly (road)
01:33:01 <Belugas> if you look in the forums, there's a thread called "you have a problem with ECS vectors? look here " or somehting like that, Char
01:33:09 <Belugas> you might find a lot of usefull infos in there
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01:51:39 <Char> whatever. i guess i really am too stupid right now
01:51:57 <Char> and i would need to find a train set that supports ECS cargoes, which the standard one does not
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03:06:53 <Digitalfox> How good is Code Gear c++ Builder 2007? My university demands we code c on it and show projects on it until next year where can choose another compiler/builder..
03:14:47 <Sacro|Laptop> Digitalfox: use whatever IDE you feel like, use whatever they want to provide project files
03:15:20 * eMJay agrees with Sacro|Laptop
03:15:34 <Sacro|Laptop> we are given VS2008
03:17:32 <Digitalfox> well they say VS2008 is not standard friendly because of pointers names
03:18:06 <Digitalfox> but thanks for the link eMJay and sacro
03:20:16 <Sacro|Laptop> Digitalfox: cite
03:20:32 <eMJay> Digitalfox: any decent IDE should be able to refactor names...
03:20:43 <eMJay> at the very worst, find-replace should work :P
03:22:19 <Digitalfox> Well the major reason is they want us to code c and c++ using all it's standards and only after a year of it we can use another IDE :\
03:23:27 <eMJay> I guess I'd give c++ builder a go and if it sucked I'd use notepad/vim/nano/whatever...
03:24:03 <Digitalfox> yeah will try c++ builder.. Lets hope it's good :)
03:25:47 <Digitalfox> By the way Sacro how are you? Feeling better?
03:42:54 <Sacro|Laptop> Digitalfox: yah thanks
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04:14:55 <ccfreak2k> Why are there never cars or people in any ttd cities?
04:16:35 <Aali> they're inside, playing ttd
04:16:58 <eMJay> and waiting at stations, to visit their friends houses to play ttd
04:17:11 <eMJay> (the internet hasn't been invented)
04:18:16 <ccfreak2k> Maybe someone should make trucks or trains to move packets around.
04:18:36 <Aali> actually you could deliver a thousand people to a road tile if you really wanted to
04:20:30 <eMJay> damn that would be slow internet :P
04:21:20 <ccfreak2k> Fine. Maybe I'll just buy all the land around your town and let it whither and die.
04:21:26 <eMJay> can anyone explain to me how a helicopter can have a next()?
04:21:37 <eMJay> let alone a next()->next()?
04:22:13 <ccfreak2k> I guess it's to clarify that you don't want next()->previous() or something.
04:24:25 <eMJay> I'm looking the todo in Doxygen
04:27:37 <eMJay> And from the code in aircraft_cmd.cpp, the higher the speed the slower the rotors spin?
04:31:51 <glx> eMJay: helicopter->shadow->rotor
04:32:29 <glx> that's why it can carry passengers and mail
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08:12:56 <ln> a morning in Australia, too
08:14:32 <Char> depends on where you are
08:14:51 <Char> and since i guess that quite some of us live in europe....
08:15:51 <Celestar> China has now officially admitted that they produce more greenhouse gases than any other nation on this planet and expect to at least double that value till 2030.
08:16:20 <Char> clima catastrophe hip-hip-hoooray.
08:16:39 <Celestar> they also officially don't care (apparently)
08:16:40 <petern> well they do have a lot of people
08:17:05 <Char> as long as the USA continue their current policy
08:17:11 <Char> there is no reason to care for china
08:17:27 <Celestar> it's not the USA's fault that China doesn't give a damn
08:17:57 <Celestar> China wouldn't give a damn if the US had NO emmission whatsoever
08:18:13 <Char> the USA are far more developed
08:18:40 <Char> well, we will not reduce our CO2 emissions if it harms our economic growth
08:18:54 <Char> the US economy is in a much better shape than chinas
08:19:20 <Char> now why would china say "hey great, guys, you do not care, but we do" ?
08:20:05 <Celestar> I'm by far no supported of the US policy; but saying it's ther US fault/problem than China is now the biggest polluter is kinda far-fetched
08:20:11 <Char> "you have been spending years emitting greenhouse gases like crazy, and now you want us, who are much less developed, to not emit them?"
08:20:31 <Char> no, i am not saying that
08:21:04 <Char> i am just saying that the US policy does nothing to help the international community convince china to reduce greenhouse gas emisions
08:21:07 <Celestar> it's solely China's fault, and it's solely China's responsibility to remedy the situation.
08:22:19 <Char> hmmm. so you don't see my point?
08:22:25 <Celestar> and with any decent policy, greenhouse-gas-reduction doesn't affect economic growth.
08:22:47 <Celestar> only if you do it wrong.-
08:22:52 <Celestar> like, for example, germany
08:23:33 <Char> if you are trying to optimize for the most economic growth
08:23:53 <Char> and then you are adding an additional restriction (like, lower greenhouse gas emission)
08:24:07 <Char> then you get a new "optimal solution" for what you should do
08:24:27 <Char> now, it is theoretically possible that the new optimal solution has the same economic growth
08:24:41 <Celestar> just use non-greenhouse-gas-producing power plants and most of the problem is solved.
08:24:53 <Char> it cannot be that the economic growth is higher (cause otherwise, you could have taken that solution in the non-restricted scenario)
08:25:05 <Char> but chances are VERY high that the new optimal solution is worse
08:25:41 <Celestar> I quite disagree there
08:25:47 <Char> i see that a greenhouse gas reduction policy is a very good idea
08:26:06 <Char> hmmmm. you may disagree, however, this is basic optimization theory ;)
08:26:22 <Char> although i have to admit that the current policy is far from optimal as well ;)
08:26:33 <Char> with regards to economic growth
08:27:04 <Celestar> Char: the thing is: the energy production with the lower greenhouse gas emmission is accidently also the energy production with the lowest cost.
08:27:04 <Char> and yes, if done decently, the effect on economic growth is quite low, i guess
08:27:47 <Char> you are voting for nuclear power plants here?
08:29:08 <Char> that got its own subtle problems
08:29:27 <Char> besides, you cannot support more than like 60% of your energy consumption with nuclear power.
08:29:41 <Celestar> yes. but there is not the faintest chance that we even remotely meet our own goals without BUILDING ADDITIONAL nuclear power plants
08:30:26 <Char> and, btw, coming back to china, their attitude towards greenhouse gases probably is like "why should we give a shit and care about it when noone else does, especially those who are far more developed than us".
08:30:51 <petern> china has nuclear power plants under construction
08:30:54 <Celestar> Char: they wouldn't give a shit even with everyone else caring
08:31:19 <Char> well, but that is because economic growth still is the holy grail for any kind of politics.... which i think is stupid in the long term
08:32:06 <Celestar> economic growth is required.
08:32:37 <Char> Celestar: well, you know that for sure? probably true, but at least you could pressure them if the rest of the world would be trying very hard to reduce greenhouse gases. but with economic growth being more important than the general health of this planet....
08:32:53 <Celestar> Char: keeping people employed
08:33:16 <Char> why cant people be employed in a stable economy (non-growing)?
08:33:24 <Char> well, yeah, i know, it currently works like that
08:33:32 <Celestar> Char: it inherently works like that
08:33:34 <Char> but economy cannot grow forever
08:33:42 <Celestar> growth means life, stagnation means death.
08:33:47 <Celestar> Stagnation is NEVER good
08:34:09 <Char> just thinking logically, there will be times when the economic growth either comes to a halt or we have a depression
08:34:43 <Char> there is like an "upper limit"
08:34:56 <Char> probably we are still far from it, though
08:35:10 <Celestar> In any kind of economy there will be at least some kind of increase in efficiency, thus productivity increases. Unless the economic growth matches the productivity increases, jobs will be lost.
08:35:44 <Char> or we all have to work less
08:35:57 <Char> and enjoy more leisure time
08:36:13 <Celestar> yes, and you get into a vicious circle...
08:36:16 <Char> i know it currently works like this
08:36:36 <Char> maybe we should think of other options
08:36:48 <Char> and try to be less narrow-minded
08:36:54 <Celestar> Char: trying to freeze a state of a system is not an option
08:37:59 <Celestar> a non-growing economy is a kind of system freeze
08:38:30 <Celestar> let me generalize: a non-growing state will not exist.
08:38:34 <Celestar> it's either up or down
08:38:36 <Char> its just that other things change, not the gross national product
08:39:08 <Char> btw, another option is to have a stable economy, but reduce the amount of people
08:39:20 <Celestar> let's talk Gross Human Product
08:39:23 <Char> like china does with its single-child policy
08:39:33 <Celestar> he. china still has population growth
08:39:43 <Char> but they significantly reduced it
08:39:58 <Char> the point is that the one-child policy is not as effective anymore
08:40:07 <Celestar> I don't think telling people how many kinds they are supposed to have is the way to go
08:40:26 <Char> because all those children who have no siblings now grow up
08:40:37 <Char> and if two of them marry, they may have more than one child
08:41:13 <Char> well, i dont think having uncontrolled population growth is the way to go either
08:41:16 <Celestar> there will always be population growth of some sort
08:41:27 <Celestar> and I don't think that's a bad thing per se
08:41:33 <Char> until the earth is either uninhabitable
08:41:35 <Rubidium> aren't orphans (due to the one child policy) the major export product of china?
08:42:00 <Celestar> Char: there are other ways
08:42:03 <Char> and i am pretty sure one of those things will happen in my lifetime
08:42:48 <Celestar> I do not share your pessimistic appraisal of the situation
08:43:01 <Char> Celestar: you don't have to ;)
08:43:18 <Char> i do think that constant population growth is a bad thing in the long run
08:43:35 <Char> because i do not think that this earth is able to support 14+ billion people
08:43:44 <Char> and i also think that if we were only like one billion
08:43:49 <Char> lots of things would be much easier
08:43:55 <Rubidium> Char: that highly depends on the resource usage
08:44:12 <Char> if we were only one billion
08:44:15 <Celestar> Char: Earth is not the only planet
08:44:26 <Rubidium> if everyone would act like an American (the USA kind of American) the earth only supports roughly 1 billion people
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08:44:42 <Char> we could use up 14 times the ressources that we could use up if we were 14 billion
08:44:42 <Celestar> Rubidium: using current technology.
08:44:57 <Char> Celestar: currently, the earth is the only freaking earth we have
08:45:13 <Char> and the next earth-like planet is at least ~50 light years away
08:45:15 <Celestar> Char: yes. hence there's need to extend our grasp
08:45:35 <Char> which means, we will not reach them within the next ~200-1000 years for sure
08:45:38 <Celestar> Char: Mars is Earth-like enough to support many billions on the long run
08:45:57 <Char> yeah, go for it, i would not want to live on mars.
08:46:47 <ln> expensive DSL connections, because of the little number of ISPs.
08:47:03 <Char> i like sitting under autum-yellow trees in the warm september sun hugging and kissing my girlfriend without caring about fuck like my oxygen supply
08:47:31 <Celestar> Char: Mars can be terraformed
08:47:42 <Char> they still miss an atmosphere
08:47:47 <Celestar> which can be generated
08:48:01 <Char> mars is not heavy enough to keep it as far as i know
08:48:21 <Celestar> depends on the atmosphere and the timescales
08:48:47 <Char> there is a zone around each sun which is inhabitable
08:48:50 <Celestar> it would have to be resupplied at regular intervals probably (regular intervals being about 1% in a million years)
08:49:04 <Celestar> Char: there are THREE planets in Sol's habitable zone
08:49:21 <Celestar> soon, there will be two, since the HabZone of every star moves outward.
08:49:23 <ln> Char: what's wrong with sitting under summer-pink trees in warm marstober sun hugging your girlfriend's space helmet?
08:49:26 <Char> still, we are not getting to an inhabitable mars within the next 1000 years
08:49:32 <Celestar> Char: Venus, Earth and Mars.
08:49:32 <Char> stick to the earth for now
08:49:46 <Celestar> Char: it's exactly that kind of thinking that will get us stuck forever.
08:50:02 <Char> you know, i like body contact
08:50:27 <Celestar> even about 20 years after the first landing, there wouldn't be space helmets for most of the time.
08:50:31 <Char> Celestar: no. i am completely willing to accept that you might at some point be able to live on mars
08:50:38 <Char> i just wouldnt count on it for now
08:50:51 <Celestar> Char: not count. But start acting.
08:51:15 <Celestar> Char: Earth is way to small a basket for mankind to put all its eggs in.
08:51:50 <Celestar> Char: one 10km-asteroid and we're goners
08:52:11 <Celestar> at least, 95% of us at least
08:52:15 <Char> i guess its easier to survey the space around us for asteroids
08:52:20 <Char> than to go for mars, but well
08:52:53 <Celestar> Char: what will that survey help?
08:52:56 <Celestar> Char: brace for impact?
08:53:20 <Char> if you see the asteroids early enough
08:53:24 <Char> you can change their path
08:53:53 <Celestar> Provided to have space fusion reactors and a crew that installs some driver onto the asteroid.
08:54:08 <Char> the risk of being hit within the next 1000 years is like.... extremely low
08:54:23 <Char> there is a variety of options
08:54:52 <Char> you can for example try to install solar panels and get driven by solar wind
08:54:57 <Celestar> Char: Since 2000, we've been hit by half a dozen of asteroids that all exceed the explosive force of the largest Hbomb ever tested.
08:55:08 <Celestar> Char: that doesn't work for a 1km+ asteroid.
08:55:22 <Char> it does, if you do it early enough
08:55:22 <Celestar> Char: no cuz they went down over water.
08:55:33 <Celestar> Char: Early enough in this case means >1 century.
08:55:58 <Celestar> how are we getting the solar sails there?
08:56:10 <ln> bruce willis would volunteer.
08:56:26 <Celestar> Char: and it would need a 25-year journey at least.
08:56:45 <Rubidium> asteroid and >1 century... doesn't that mean that they are coming directly from the Oort belt?
08:56:49 <Char> makes quite some things a lot easier
08:57:10 <Celestar> Rubidium: several of the heavy hitters are.
08:57:11 <Char> Celestar: by the way, just a side question: what are you doing in reallife?
08:57:41 <Celestar> Char: doing my PhD in mechanical engineering (computational fluid dynamics for gas turbine application)
08:57:43 <Rubidium> then when you notice them you need to send something to that direction and interception will take eons
08:57:59 <petern> hmm, date: 16 aug 2008
08:58:05 <petern> well, these drives are not too old :D
08:58:10 <Char> Celestar: well... i am about to start a phd in measurement and control technology ;)
08:58:15 <Celestar> Rubidium: if we say one year, a solar sail will not be enough. You need at least a nuclear electric rocket.
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08:58:31 <Celestar> Char: my Major is aerospace engineering and power plants.
08:58:52 <Char> sounds like you got an idea what you are talking about
08:59:11 <Celestar> because I don't always like what I see :P
08:59:21 <Char> i would still not count on mars to live on
08:59:32 <Char> if you say like 95% death
08:59:54 <Char> and now you shift some people to mars
09:00:26 <Char> and 10.000 people watching from mars
09:00:32 <Rubidium> just "call" the Asgard ;)
09:00:41 <Celestar> we need the Mars colony to launch a deflection mission from there.
09:00:46 <Celestar> it's much easier from there.
09:00:50 <Celestar> everything we need is there.
09:01:02 <Celestar> and the Delta-V for such a mission is a fraction of what you need from earth.
09:01:14 <Char> a 10km monster is a once-in-100.000.000-years-occurrence, right?
09:01:29 <Celestar> Char: once in 60 million years. Last occurence was 65 million years ago
09:01:37 <Rubidium> Celestar: that's a hefty task for the few robots on there
09:01:41 <Char> that is, if you shoot directly
09:01:53 <Char> why cant you use a swing-by-maneuver?
09:02:04 <Char> which has pretty much the same effect
09:02:09 <Char> just takes a year longer
09:02:14 <Celestar> a 4m asteroid (Hiroshima-equivalent) has 1/year frequency.
09:02:25 <Celestar> Char: because you need most of the Delta-V to get into Earth's orbit.
09:02:49 <Char> Celestar: so.... that means chances are high we still got another one or ten million years :)
09:03:18 <Celestar> a 40m asteroid (Tsar Bomba) has a 1/400 years occurence. wrong place => 500 "Megadeaths"
09:03:54 <Celestar> the biggest H-Bomb ever tested.
09:03:57 <Rubidium> can we vote where the asteroid will hit?
09:04:16 <Celestar> Rubidium: we can, but chances are the astroid will care not :P
09:04:57 <Char> to be honest, i think we have more important problems to take care of than an asteroid from space
09:05:08 <Celestar> Char: the thing is: there are about 200 000 estimated Near-Earth-Objects bigger than 100 meters. ALL of them will hit sooner or later.
09:05:15 <Char> cause that problem is very unlikely to really become a problem
09:05:27 <Char> on the other hand, the climate is very likely to become a problem
09:05:47 <Celestar> Char: Space is able to provide us with solutions to many earth-bound problems, mostly: Energy, Thirst and Hunger.
09:05:47 <Char> Celestar: good thing is: most of them will hit later
09:05:48 <Rubidium> Celestar: with hit you mean any celestial body, right?
09:05:54 <Celestar> Rubidium: hit Earth.
09:06:18 <Celestar> Rubidium: "Near-Earth" objects.
09:06:36 <Char> most of them are under control
09:06:42 <Char> i.e. their paths are calculated
09:06:51 <Rubidium> that's orbit of object intersects orbit of earth, right?
09:07:05 <Celestar> er. about 190 000 are not even calatogued yet.
09:07:21 <Char> and still, i would better have the problems of earth taken care of on earth
09:07:25 <Celestar> Rubidium: or come close enough for Earth's gravity to become paramount.
09:07:37 <Char> cause earth is able to give solutions to these problems as well
09:07:42 <Celestar> Char: Space will/could also provide a clean and almost infinite energy source.
09:07:49 <Rubidium> so they can, if we're lucky, hit other planets or the sun
09:08:07 <Rubidium> which is probably the biggest NEO ;)
09:08:21 <Celestar> Rubidium: Moon is an option. Mars is an option. Due to the sizes, about 90+% will hit earth :)
09:08:23 <Char> whatever. i need some breakfast.
09:08:28 <Celestar> Rubidium: Moon is moving way from earth.
09:08:45 <Celestar> that's why the Earth's rotation is getting slower and slower
09:09:11 <Celestar> in due time, one earth's day will be about 28 or our current days.
09:09:56 <Celestar> gotta recompute that once.
09:10:02 <petern> we won't be worrying about global warming then
09:10:04 <Celestar> maybe planetmaker has the solution at hand ;)
09:10:11 <ln> finally the extra hours per day i've been hoping for.
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09:10:35 <Celestar> petern: we will, because the sun's luminosity increases permanently
09:10:49 <Celestar> not much, but not little enough not to notice ;)
09:12:15 <Celestar> frankly, we have little idea about what influences the climate.
09:12:27 <Celestar> if you make 100 simulations, you get 100 different results :(
09:19:52 <Gekz> Celestar: what is the timeframe for this extension of the day
09:20:10 <Celestar> Gekz: I think about a microsecond per year or so
09:20:25 <Gekz> not enough to make me happy
09:20:32 <Gekz> I was hoping before I died it would be 4 hours
09:20:54 <Gekz> and I have nothing against lowering emissions whether or not its causing warming
09:21:09 <petern> oh i was only.... 28 hours from tulsa
09:21:28 <Celestar> Gekz: I quite agree.
09:22:08 <Celestar> "As a result of the conservation of angular momentum, the increasing semimajor axis of the Moon is accompanied by a gradual slowing of the Earth's rotation by about 0.002 seconds per day per century.[52]"
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09:30:50 <Celestar> Char: where is your PhD taking place?
09:32:37 <planetmaker> [10:29] <Gekz> [10:19:52] Celestar: what is the timeframe for this extension of the day <--- 1 Milliseconds per century
09:32:53 <planetmaker> actually. I meant to write 2 Milliseconds :P
09:33:09 <Celestar> planetmaker: so my microsecond per year was only about a OOM of :)
09:33:13 <Char> planetmaker: not trying to make you unhappy but
09:33:19 <Char> <@Celestar> "As a result of the conservation of angular momentum, the increasing semimajor axis of the Moon is accompanied by a gradual slowing of the Earth's rotation by about 0.002 seconds per day per century.[52]"
09:33:34 <planetmaker> Just saw it then.
09:33:59 <planetmaker> a search-warrant for wikipedia :P
09:34:16 <Celestar> planetmaker: so when we achieve mutual tidal lock between Earth and Luna, what will the rotation speed of Earth be?
09:34:25 <Celestar> Char: what OS are you on?
09:34:33 <Celestar> planetmaker: pity :P
09:34:55 <Celestar> UTF-8 is some encoding system.
09:35:04 <Celestar> "codepage" for DOS/WIN talk
09:35:08 <planetmaker> but much longer than 28 days as increasing lunar distance will increase the lunar month - which then will have to be an Earthian day
09:35:19 <Celestar> planetmaker: yeah, I noticed that later too (=
09:35:19 <Char> Celestar: still, you did not answer where your PhD is taking place
09:35:34 <Char> Celestar: thats not too far from here, then
09:35:49 <Celestar> unless you use a train :(
09:37:04 <Rubidium> or you walk ;) (2 days and 13 hours non-stop walking)
09:37:38 <Celestar> that's not much slower than the train.
09:37:57 <Celestar> They used to run Munich-Zürich with ICE-TDs
09:38:18 <planetmaker> Celestar: but I have some doubts that it's worthwhile to calculate the time when Earth and moon will be both tidally locked - it will be after the Sun died.
09:38:31 <Rubidium> Celestar: "only" a little over 4 hours
09:38:35 <Celestar> planetmaker: I tihnk so
09:38:45 <Celestar> Rubidium: yes. or about 3 hours by car using normal driving
09:38:48 <Rubidium> that's ofcourse twice as much as with a car
09:39:10 <Rubidium> hmm, although... not much German autobahn
09:39:27 <Char> the munich - zurich connection is pretty fucked up
09:39:39 <Char> when i did my internship in munich
09:39:45 <Celestar> no. Munich-Lindau is fucked up. Lindau Zürich is actually quite ok
09:39:58 <Celestar> It's a single, non-electrified line
09:40:25 <planetmaker> all ICE connections currently are f***d up.
09:40:42 <Celestar> planetmaker: those with ICE-Ts mostly
09:41:04 <planetmaker> yeah. But it's a network... so ripples spread.
09:42:08 <Rubidium> planetmaker: something being a network doesn't necessarily mean that one type of train not going means delays on all the others
09:42:18 <Celestar> Rubidium: in Germany, it doest.
09:42:26 <Celestar> I've got another ICE run on Sunday. let's hope it works out
09:42:29 <planetmaker> I know, Rubidium. But here...
09:42:45 <TrueBrain> doest ... that word can go two ways :)
09:42:46 <Celestar> Stuttgart-Airport Frankfurt-Aachen
09:43:05 <Celestar> and on Tuesday Aachen-Köln-München-Pasing
09:43:29 <Celestar> first time I use an airport to change long-distance trains \o/
09:43:49 <planetmaker> Moin TrueBrain :)
09:43:58 <keyweed_> i use the airport to change from a bus to a train everyday.
09:44:17 <TrueBrain> would be fun if you use it to change from plane to train every day ;)
09:44:26 <Celestar> TrueBrain: I know people doing so.
09:44:35 <Celestar> I friend of mine lives in Munich and works in Frankfurt
09:44:38 <keyweed_> they really got the multiple drive through bus stop thing under control at schiphol
09:44:51 <TrueBrain> Celestar: well, then again: expensive :)
09:45:03 <Celestar> TrueBrain: nope. He works for Lufthansa.
09:45:18 <Celestar> the flights MUC-FRA are sometimes 50% or more LH employees.
09:45:47 <Celestar> I once had a flight on that route with 35 pilots, 52 flight attendents, 40 other staff and 3 "normal" passengers
09:46:57 <Celestar> and I delayed the flight 20 minutes cuz my flight from Osaka came late ^^
09:47:28 <TrueBrain> bah, it is one of those days ... I am completely bored ..
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09:49:00 <Celestar> TrueBrain: help me write this damn paper
09:49:09 <Char> write a new computer game
09:49:10 <Celestar> TrueBrain: cancel write paper. set coding NoAI
09:49:26 <TrueBrain> NoAI (or more: NAIL), is a pain currently
09:49:34 <TrueBrain> finalizing and fixing darn bugs
09:49:40 <TrueBrain> well, I don't have to tell you with your cargodest ;)
09:49:58 <Char> celestar is doing cargodest?
09:50:11 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you are finalizing bugs? :D
09:50:13 <TrueBrain> well, not at the moment :p
09:50:56 <Celestar> so you can send me letterbombs if it doesn't work? :D
09:51:00 <TrueBrain> doesn't sound too friendly ;)
09:51:02 <Char> just in case i ever use it and things dont work properly
09:51:18 <TrueBrain> oh, and never to say: good job Celestar?!
09:51:40 <Celestar> forgot where to push to :S
09:51:47 <Celestar> and it's not in my history
09:51:51 <planetmaker> good job so far, ... all of you :)
09:51:58 <TrueBrain> some kind of ssh address :p
09:52:03 <Char> no, of course i would never say anyone has done a good job
09:52:34 <Char> actually wanted to try cargodest at some point
09:52:35 <TrueBrain> ssh://truebrain@secure.openttd.org//var/repos/hg/developers/truebrain/noai.hg <- Celestar: the push I use :p
09:52:43 * Rubidium wonders when Char's next show is ;)
09:52:50 <Celestar> Rubidium: what show?
09:52:55 <Celestar> ok I've merge again :D
09:53:01 <TrueBrain> he refers to I guess
09:53:22 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: wow, you understood me :)
09:53:33 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yeah .. I start to understand how your mind works ;)
09:54:00 <TrueBrain> wow, my new CPU is fast ... Gentoo up and running in 2 hours of compiling .. doesn't happen that much :p
09:54:13 <TrueBrain> now it needs to bite itself into KDE .. that will take some time :)
09:54:25 <Celestar> I HATE Munich-Stuttgart :(
09:54:56 <petern> hmm, how can i update blkids?
09:54:59 <Celestar> Stuttgart-Aachen: 2h 49mins. Aachen-Munich (via Stuttgart) 5h 20 mins
09:55:27 <Celestar> mind you: Stuttgart-Aachen is 450km and Stuttgart-Munich is 200km.
09:55:28 <Rubidium> Celestar: Munchen-Munster is way more interesting ;)
09:56:32 <Celestar> Rubidium: 4:30h from Munich to Bonn, and 2 hours from Boon to Münster :P
09:56:45 <Rubidium> Celestar: you could take a plane ;)
09:57:05 <Rubidium> and then the slow train to Enschede
09:57:46 <Celestar> flight is 75 minutes
09:57:55 <Rubidium> maybe we could then have a cargodest release party or so ;)
09:58:31 <Celestar> found a flight for 138 EUR
09:59:06 <Rubidium> sounds cheaper than the train
09:59:34 <Rubidium> assuming you don't have a reduction card of some kind
10:00:55 <Celestar> IDIOTS: "Unknown foreign fare. Please book ticket at the service desk"
10:01:14 <Celestar> I CAN book to Amsterdam
10:01:46 <Rubidium> Celestar: that's like... uhm... stupid ;)
10:02:54 <Rubidium> the German train runs up to Enschede station, complete with German signalling and safety systems and the track is completely seperate from the Dutch tracks
10:03:38 <Celestar> 228 EUR round trip to amsterdam.
10:03:44 <Celestar> including my reduction card
10:04:56 <petern> hmm, people seem to say that swap should not be on raid-1...
10:05:10 <Rubidium> Enschede-Amsterdam is 36,70 without reduction round trip
10:05:15 <Gekz> petern: it sounds quite pointless to me
10:06:11 <Celestar> Train: Munich-Amsterdam: 240 EUR round trip, takes 7:30h each way
10:06:17 <petern> so when one drive dies, it's okay that it won't be able to swap stuff back in ?
10:06:31 <Celestar> Plane: Munich-Amsterdam: 89 EUR round trip, takes 1:30h each way
10:06:37 <Celestar> which would I chose?
10:06:47 <Gekz> petern: couldnt you just put swap on two drives
10:07:12 <petern> how would that help in the event of a drive failure?
10:07:34 <Celestar> petern: disable swap?
10:08:09 <Rubidium> Celestar: looks like DB sends you via another route because it's marginally faster and that includes a few km of Dutch trains
10:08:20 <Rubidium> Celestar: how much is Munich-Hengelo?
10:08:39 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o petern
10:08:57 <Celestar> Rubidium: Munich-Münster was about 200 EUR round trip ...
10:09:01 <petern> Gekz, ah, so you don't use it, so you don't know what you're talking about :D
10:09:24 <Gekz> I use it, just not on this system.
10:09:40 <Gekz> ln: contractions are old timer grammar.
10:09:49 <Celestar> Rubidium: 192 EUR to Hengelo
10:10:00 <Gekz> especially on the interwebs
10:10:36 <Celestar> Rubidium: still a far cry compared to the 89 EUR for the flight
10:11:05 <ln> Gekz: ok, then simply write "do not" instead of using contraction.
10:11:08 <Rubidium> +4 EUR for the local train
10:11:21 <Rubidium> and approximately 15 minutes extra
10:12:14 <Gekz> I can break my language how I see fit.
10:12:28 <Gekz> I wont let foreigners do the same until they fully grasp it
10:12:42 *** petern sets mode: +q gekz!*@*
10:12:48 <petern> but we don't have to listen to it :D
10:13:43 <ln> Gekz_: i think i graps english fully enough.
10:14:11 *** petern sets mode: -q gekz!*@*
10:14:24 <Gekz> its a nuisance and nothing more
10:17:43 <TrueBrain> I can live with SPAM, I have SPAM filter ... but what annoys me the most, if when spammers start to use my address as From ... those idiotic bounce mails :(
10:18:15 <Celestar> block all e-mails that have you addy as from?
10:19:09 <TrueBrain> stupid Gentoo .. made OpenTTD ebuild EAPI=2, which is NOT yet stable for all platforms ... let them test those things on other packages :p
10:20:27 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: dunno .. 'rc22' .. guess any ;)
10:20:31 <TrueBrain> petern: some new standard for their scripts
10:32:09 <TrueBrain> kde-meta:4.1 .... 467 packages :p
10:32:37 <Char> i need a train set for the ECS vectors
10:32:45 <Char> actually i would like to use the standard train set
10:32:55 <Char> but that one does not support the ECS cargoes....
10:35:42 <Rubidium> there's a newgrf somewhat that adds ecs support to the original vehicle (IIRC)
10:36:19 <Ammler> oldvehicels-newcargos.grf from pikka
10:37:41 <TrueBrain> I love this country ..
10:37:56 <TrueBrain> we are getting RFID passes to get into public service stuff (trains, busses, ...)
10:37:59 <Char> i couldnt find it in ecs wiki
10:38:03 <TrueBrain> now it is long known that the cards are broken
10:38:07 <TrueBrain> as in: easy to hack
10:38:25 <TrueBrain> last week an article was published where a person could copy his card with just 150 euro of hardware
10:38:43 <TrueBrain> today they made it final that in Rotterdam it is the required thing to have in 2009
10:38:45 * Rubidium wonders why hacking those cards is *such* a big issue...
10:39:01 <TrueBrain> I really wonder how many people will never buy a real ticket ...
10:39:22 <keyweed_> it isn't. companies deploying a seriously flawed system IS a big issue
10:39:59 <TrueBrain> it just smells like Microsoft. The OS contains known security issues .. well .. release it anyway .. call it Windows XP
10:40:11 <TrueBrain> or: this OS contains serious stability problems .. well .. release it anyway .. call it Windows ME
10:40:18 <Rubidium> keyweed_: the Japanese are using a similar system which is broken too, but nobody complains there
10:40:25 <TrueBrain> I mean, come on ... are the people leading this country really that stupid?
10:40:35 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: the Japanese system is not as broken as the Dutch system :)
10:40:50 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: are you sure?
10:40:52 <TrueBrain> we now use an encryption which was first marketed in .. 1985 I believe
10:41:02 <TrueBrain> how outdated can you be?
10:41:19 <keyweed_> Rubidium: the dutch system is absurdly broken, from DOS attacks, identity theft, free travel. all you need is a 30 dollar card writern and the skills of a 14 year olds script kiddie
10:41:42 <TrueBrain> keyweed_: well, not really that black and white .. as it took a IT student a bit mroe money and time to do it correctly ;)
10:42:32 <keyweed_> TrueBrain: true, saves the script kiddies a lot of work though. as soon as keys start getting published on the internet things will start getting interesting
10:42:45 <TrueBrain> keyweed_: already done
10:42:49 <Rubidium> keyweed_: broken yes, but the Japanese version is equally flawed if not more flawed
10:42:59 <TrueBrain> the paper published, includes detailed information on how to make a copy
10:43:02 <TheMask97> TrueBrain: isn't there a way for them to know the card is hacked? I wonder how many people are actually going to hack the card if there is a risk they will be caught...
10:43:04 <TrueBrain> and keys are already there to be found ;)
10:43:07 <keyweed_> but hell. eventually they'll see their mistake and fix it by spending more tax dollars then an earlier fix would have cost.
10:43:29 <TrueBrain> keyweed_: yeah ... that is what I am afraid of :(
10:43:35 <Rubidium> as in the Japanese version I can just walk through the gate without a card
10:43:39 <keyweed_> TheMask97: there is nu realy difference between a hacked card and the original
10:43:40 <TrueBrain> TheMask97: you can flash it back on your original card, so it is pretty hard to detect ;)
10:43:47 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that is a flaw on a completely different level
10:44:19 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: like we here now talk about a lock of a window that is easy to pick .. and you tell us that the front door is open
10:44:26 <TrueBrain> sure, it is also a problem, but not related on that level :)
10:44:44 <Rubidium> and identity theft is just stupid design
10:45:06 <keyweed_> stupid design is the norm these days
10:45:12 <TheMask97> TrueBrain: well I guess I've have to buy the hardware for 150 euro then ;) although I hardly ever travel by public transport
10:45:22 <TrueBrain> but okay, I now hope they roll out the OVChip very fast over the completely country ... then I can travel for free for life
10:45:45 <TrueBrain> TheMask97: soon you can buy those chips online for a few bucks :p
10:46:34 <Rubidium> oh... not to mention that you can run a ovchipcard like application on your (Japanese) mobile phone
10:46:47 <TrueBrain> "He! I have a cool idea! Lets make a chip where people can travel with throughout the country" -- "Yes, good idea! But .. to save a few bucks, lets use that old standard we are using for ages already, it is so stable ... 16bit key, that is enough, not?"
10:46:52 <Rubidium> and go through the gates with that
10:46:58 <Rubidium> or pay at shops with the same system
10:47:26 <Char> there are wagons which are different in length
10:47:39 <Char> they are not half a tile long but a little shorter or longer
10:48:05 <Char> how do i know how long my train is with such wagons?
10:48:13 <Char> how do in know if it fits into a station?
10:48:21 <Char> which is for example 6 tiles long
10:48:32 <Rubidium> you see that number thingy in the depot?
10:48:34 <keyweed_> look at your train listing and compare it to one of your standard length trains?
10:48:48 <Char> i do see that number thingy, yes
10:48:51 <Rubidium> divide that by 2 rounding upwards and you know how many tiles it is
10:49:12 <Char> cause it just counts the wagons
10:49:19 <Char> but if the wagons are different in length
10:49:36 <Char> i got a 9-wagon train which is definitely shorter than another 10-wagon train
10:55:01 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: talking about "hidden" features :p
10:55:50 <Celestar> stupid phone polls :S
10:56:29 <Gekz> Rubidium: what platform is that?
10:59:23 <TrueBrain> it streams really poor Rubidium .... :(
11:01:09 <Celestar> this one apparently wanted to sell diet food or something. Her: "Are you male or female". Me: "What do I sound like?". Her: "Male". Me: "Good. so let's suppose I'm male". "How tall are you?" "1755 millimeters" . "er what?" .. "1.755 meters" "ok .. then what's your weight?" ..
11:01:52 <Celestar> "You mean my weight or my mass" "Mass, then" "Well, that depends" "on what?" "On my velocity" "I don't understand" "Clearly" "<beep beep beep>"
11:02:25 <TrueBrain> I can't get that movie of Rubidium read past 1:15 ..
11:03:07 <Celestar> I've gotta try that once
11:03:31 <TrueBrain> would be nice to try that, yes ;)
11:04:23 <TrueBrain> finally it loaded completely
11:09:36 <Celestar> geographically speaking...
11:34:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o petern
11:34:38 <TrueBrain> petern: how was the raid?
11:35:12 <petern> /dev/md/3 427G 5687M 400G 1.3 [ ] /home
11:37:39 <petern> of course, now i have a spare 80GB IDE drive
11:39:17 <TrueBrain> I don't even have a swap ... :p
11:39:31 <Rubidium> then you can run lighttpd unattended on it for a few weeks ;)
11:39:54 <Rubidium> or use it for apache's rewrite logs
11:40:14 <Celestar> apache isn't that hungry, at least for me
11:40:24 <TrueBrain> Apache is VERY hungry
11:40:33 * petern is running lighttpd... :o
11:40:49 <TrueBrain> and lighttpd is for us, because of the amount of requests per second, and his cache handler :p
11:41:58 <Rubidium> Celestar: Apache's rewrite logs can fairly easily cause a denial-of-service
11:42:10 <SpComb> so disable rewrite logs
11:42:17 <SpComb> or more percisely, don't forget to turn them off
11:42:21 * SpComb wonders if he has them turned on
11:42:44 <Rubidium> rewrite logs grow about 20 times faster than the access logs
11:45:00 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: but I guess you can disable all logs for WT2 anyway :p
11:45:32 <Celestar> has there been any contact with Mihamix btw?
11:45:33 <SpComb> I've never used lighty's caching
11:45:43 <TrueBrain> Celestar: plenty; why you ask?
11:45:45 <SpComb> but the HTTP proxy loads everything into memory, which is silly
11:45:49 <Celestar> TrueBrain: just wondering
11:45:53 <DorpsGek> Celestar: Mihamix was last seen in #openttd 41 weeks, 2 days, 15 hours, 24 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <MiHaMiX> s/t$/d/
11:45:56 <TrueBrain> SpComb: you use it, if you want it or not
11:46:16 <TrueBrain> Celestar: hehe :) We arranged everything that was needed :)
11:46:23 <SpComb> TrueBrain: iirc, my lighty doesn't do any caching
11:46:40 <TrueBrain> SpComb: it does; it caches the content before sending it to the client
11:46:43 <TrueBrain> then it frees it again
11:46:54 <TrueBrain> but if you have 100 people requesting 100 files, you have those files in your cache
11:46:56 <SpComb> what content? Some cgi?
11:46:58 <TrueBrain> what ever youw ant to call it ;)
11:47:17 <TrueBrain> problem is that it never frees that memory (as it can't)
11:47:34 <TrueBrain> so when you get 1000 people in 1 sec, it uses, say, 100 MiB of RAM
11:47:34 <TrueBrain> now when it stays below 1000 people, you are fine
11:47:35 <SpComb> it would be very stupid of lighty to load the entire contents of every file into it's own memory
11:47:39 <TrueBrain> but if you get 2000 people later, it grows
11:47:40 <SpComb> as the kernel does that already
11:48:44 <TrueBrain> it tries to mmap most things, as far as I understand
11:48:52 <TrueBrain> but proxy requests it obvious can't :)
11:49:21 <SpComb> ah, you're talking about lighty proxing requests to another server, not serving it up from the filesystem?
11:49:47 <TrueBrain> I believe only static file serving is unaffected, yes
11:49:55 <TrueBrain> (and that even depends on your mode ;))
11:50:03 <SpComb> right, I thought you were talking about local static files
11:51:03 <TrueBrain> there are 3 modes I believe for static files
11:51:09 <TrueBrain> mmap, some kernel passthrough, and a buffer method
11:51:16 <TrueBrain> the first two should be fine .. the last not ;)
11:52:21 <SpComb> but those all handle only MEM_CHUNK and FILE_CHUNKs, and I guess HTTP request proxying is handled by MEM_CHUNKs
11:52:26 <SpComb> -> don't use lighttpd as a http proxy, it sucks at it
11:53:05 <TrueBrain> it works just fine; just it consumes a terrible amount of memory if you are out of luck
11:53:50 <SpComb> if you download a 700MB file through a lighttpd-proxy, it consumes 700MB of memory
11:54:02 <TrueBrain> (and the amount of hits on the httpd is a bit .. insane, for OpenTTD ;))
11:54:41 <TrueBrain> (I dunno about 1.4)
11:58:02 <TrueBrain> Redmine is a nice bugtracker :)
12:04:35 <TrueBrain> but SpComb, maybe you are right, and we should place yet an other httpd in front of apache and lighttpd (and with that, in front of gitweb, hgweb, tracd, and some others)
12:04:45 <TrueBrain> then again ... hgweb and tracd leak in the same way
12:05:02 <TrueBrain> www-data 24010 0.1 14.6 368752 117016 ? S Oct19 25:36 /usr/bin/python /usr/bin/tracd
12:05:09 <TrueBrain> www-data 27295 0.1 15.8 264232 126984 ? Ss Sep27 56:46 /usr/bin/python /usr/bin/hg serve
12:05:27 <TrueBrain> tracd is running for 11 days, and using 117MiB of RAM ...
12:05:53 <TrueBrain> burst-malloc-no-free approach :p
12:06:11 <TrueBrain> who needs a garbage collector anyway ..
12:06:57 <petern> SMART Usage Attribute: 194 Temperature_Celsius changed
12:07:08 <TrueBrain> petern: or it is REALLY hot in there
12:07:19 <TrueBrain> petern: you can bake an egg on that thing!
12:07:32 <TrueBrain> 145 of 423 packages emerged ... sigh ...
12:07:48 <petern> hddtemp says ~25 deg C
12:08:02 <SmatZ> TrueBrain: enjoy your emerge -e world ;-)
12:08:22 <TrueBrain> but no, emerging @kdebase and friends (4.1)
12:09:52 <SmatZ> reemerges everything in your system
12:10:01 <TrueBrain> I wonder when ever that is useful :p
12:10:02 <SpComb> if you're doing domain-based-hosting across multiple daemons, then a dedicated proxy makes sense
12:10:05 <SmatZ> good when you upgrade gcc or glibc or so
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12:10:17 <SpComb> or just run everything with lighttpd and FastCGI
12:10:30 <TrueBrain> SpComb: most things are
12:10:54 <TrueBrain> a few things are proxied away, like WT2 (on different VPS), and some stuff that only works under apache
12:11:08 <TrueBrain> then it turned out hg and fastcgi leak even more
12:11:12 <TrueBrain> so that was proxied too
12:11:20 <TrueBrain> then trac had the same issue (python fastcgi module problem)
12:11:30 <TrueBrain> (most things are = most things were)
12:11:40 <TrueBrain> gitweb is the only one doing its job right
12:12:01 <TrueBrain> django had the same work .. but then again: also python
12:12:09 <TrueBrain> so now we have more proxies then fastcgi ;)
12:12:11 <SpComb> it would be interesting to know what's causing it
12:12:19 <TrueBrain> Python garbage collector fucking up
12:12:56 <SpComb> fucking up in what way?
12:13:02 <TrueBrain> not freeing up the memory
12:13:06 <TrueBrain> slowly eating more and more memory
12:13:13 <TrueBrain> (EVERY page load increased the memory with 12 kib :p)
12:13:42 <TrueBrain> the thread instance is never considered free'd
12:13:44 <SpComb> I'm just sure it's possible to write python code that doesn't exhibit those problems
12:13:48 <TrueBrain> so a missing DelRef() I guess :p
12:14:04 <SpComb> so it would be interesting to know exactly what is going wrong
12:14:06 <TrueBrain> I couldn't find a fastcgi module that didn't showed the same problem
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12:15:11 <TrueBrain> and if you ever have the time, find out what goes wrong exactly, and fix it :p I couldn't trace it (to deep inside Python)
12:17:49 <SmatZ> Exception in thread "OutputReader" java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: GC overhead limit exceeded
12:17:56 <SmatZ> I wonder what is advantage of Java then
12:19:07 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
12:20:20 <TrueBrain> I wonder that in general
12:32:57 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14547 /trunk/src/ (oldpool.h oldpool_func.h order_cmd.cpp): -Fix: order pool seemed to look full when it was not as it only checked whether it was possible to allocate a new block of pool items instead of checking for free pool items.
12:34:20 <mikl> Let us eat Cake(PHP) and drink Java, before the Python eats us…
12:35:05 <NukeBuster> is there any way to supress error messages from a docommand?
12:35:35 <Rubidium> why would you want to do that?
12:35:42 <NukeBuster> as soon as it hits an error it gives a general error and stops resuming the function
12:36:40 <NukeBuster> Im busy with the diagonal clearing patch... but discoverd for the rectangular clearing that the same stuff was also being handled by docommand
12:37:11 <NukeBuster> but when i use docommand in a loop.... it doesn't return to my loop when it hits an error...
12:38:06 <NukeBuster> I'll upload a screenshot
12:39:23 <NukeBuster> where does it put that in linux?
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12:42:01 <eMJay> Gekz and NukeBuster, that's where mine go
12:42:48 <eMJay> NukeBuster: unless you're pressing the printscrn button , in which case it should go to the clipboard...
12:43:06 <eMJay> (although, gnome prompts me where I want to save screen shots....)
12:46:36 <SmatZ> AddCost sets CmdFailed iirc
12:46:41 <SmatZ> so maybe it is the problem
12:47:46 <NukeBuster> can I undo that somehow?
12:47:58 <NukeBuster> because it replaced this code which should not be nessecery
12:48:19 <NukeBuster> because docommand already checks if there is enough money
12:49:35 <Rubidium> NukeBuster: the original code clears as much as it can, the "new" code clears all or nothing
12:50:29 <NukeBuster> but thats why i want to supress that error msg
12:51:38 <NukeBuster> it's almost the same code in cmd_levelland
12:52:11 <dih> ln: that behaviour got people banned yesterday
12:52:36 <petern> that was yesterday, this is today
12:53:11 <SmatZ> NukeBuster: use cost.AddCost(DoCommand(blabla).GetCost) or so
12:53:45 <SmatZ> or yeah, use if (CmdFailed(ret)) continue
12:53:52 <SmatZ> but this way you set CmdFailed
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12:54:33 <NukeBuster> if that works it would still save 10 lines
12:55:57 <SmatZ> [13:53:11] <SmatZ> NukeBuster: use cost.AddCost(DoCommand(blabla).GetCost) or so <== probably bad solution
12:56:04 * dih shuffles the chars and finds pokeslow
12:56:28 <NukeBuster> so this should give the error through also? cost.AddCost(ret);
12:56:51 <NukeBuster> it should be cost.AddCost(ret.GetCost); ?
12:56:57 <SmatZ> if ret failed then, this will make cost failed too
12:57:03 <SmatZ> if ret didn't fail, then it's ok
12:57:18 <SmatZ> [13:53:45] <SmatZ> or yeah, use if (CmdFailed(ret)) continue <== this way you won't add failed ret
12:57:51 <Slowpoke> what? :o I'm not slow!
12:58:20 <NukeBuster> i thought that skipped to the next loop?
12:58:58 <dih> 13:59 < Slowpoke> what? :o I'm not slow! <- even that comment was late...
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13:01:47 <NukeBuster> Thanks guys, that seems to have solved it :)
13:02:01 <NukeBuster> That will save a few lines of duplication
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13:10:24 <Belugas> gosh .... you all do talk a lot ... 9 hours of stuff i do not have the time to look over...
13:10:49 <Belugas> dih, you're strange guy, hugging me all of a sudden ;)
13:10:57 <Belugas> and you too NukeBuster
13:23:33 <NukeBuster> is it possible to force thiss check to execute when calling a DoCommand?
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13:25:51 * Celestar goes barricading his office door
13:28:29 <Celestar> now why does this 2.5" USB drive have two connectors?
13:30:06 <Celestar> NukeBuster: what am I seeing?
13:31:16 <NukeBuster> is it possible to force this when calling a DoCommand?
13:31:32 <Belugas> it looks like code from OpenTTD to me, but out of context, it could be anything :)
13:31:52 <NukeBuster> posted the question 5 min earlier
13:32:21 <NukeBuster> it should check the available money, shouldn't it?
13:34:48 <Char> i feel so unmotivated... :/
13:34:55 <Belugas> NukeBuster, i'm sorry, but is it a diff or is it the actual code?
13:35:35 <NukeBuster> it's from the DoCommand function
13:36:01 <NukeBuster> I was trying to fight some duplicated code... because it looks like DoCommand checks available money itself
13:36:27 <Belugas> Char, have you step over your stupidity mode of yesterday actually had a go at reading the forums on ECS?
13:37:24 <Char> Belugas: i found out everything i need, yes
13:37:28 <Belugas> NukeBuster, am i under the impression that you think that all commands are money related?
13:37:37 <Belugas> good, Char :) proud of you
13:39:04 <NukeBuster> no they probably aren't
13:39:38 <NukeBuster> but the line !CheckCompanyHasMoney(res)) gives me the idea that the function does have the check for it...
13:40:23 <Char> Belugas: i am proud of me as well :P
13:40:28 <Rubidium> NukeBuster: any idea how complex the clear function actually is w.r.t. to payment?
13:40:29 <Char> no, actually not, but whatever
13:40:30 <Belugas> and what do you see just 2-3 lines above, NukeBuster?
13:40:59 <NukeBuster> checks if not bankruptand if not cost query?
13:41:26 <NukeBuster> but the _docommand_recursive stuff strikes me...
13:43:48 <Belugas> So it seems yu have not yet grasp all the internals of the command handling :)
13:43:56 <NukeBuster> Rubidium: Well the 3 lines i just removed seemed to do nothing with cost estimation, the only problem now is that when there isn't enough money the command doesn't fail... And i thought i had seen that in the DoCommand function.
13:44:35 <NukeBuster> you have spam on your paste.openttd.org btw.
13:45:44 <NukeBuster> but the DoCommand is or isn't able to check if there is enough money available?
13:48:25 <Rubidium> clearing land is a tricky function for which cost estimation is basically impossible
13:48:43 <Char> has any of you guys ever played locomotion?
13:49:24 <NukeBuster> strange thing though if _docommand_recursive ==0 -> error; then it gets 1 added; then it checks for _docommand_recursive==1
13:49:28 <NukeBuster> which cannot happen
13:49:41 <NukeBuster> because if you had set it to 1 it would be 2 at the check
13:50:26 <Belugas> Char, i did, and i did not liked it much enough to switch over
13:50:28 <Rubidium> NukeBuster: I can't follow your thoughts
13:50:52 <Belugas> Rubidium, i've disconnected a while ago, already :)
13:52:36 <NukeBuster> I'm trying to reduce code duplication by the way.
13:52:59 <Rubidium> FYI: line 400 clears the error state
13:53:34 <NukeBuster> so I'd just set _docommand_recursive to 0 then
13:53:38 <Char> Belugas: i tried it as well, but for some reason it did not have the same feel
13:53:53 <Rubidium> NukeBuster: no, you should not touch that variable at all
13:59:37 <Belugas> Char, one thing i noted: Locomotion was aimed at been more realistic then TTD. Could be. But it was also less fun. I think that's what started my "reflection" on realism
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14:01:00 <ln> Locomotion had some nice improvements, but then it is too much like building rollercoasters.
14:01:48 <Celestar> yeah, and many things sucked ass
14:02:07 <Celestar> Belugas: Locomotion was more realistic? where?
14:02:34 <Celestar> I didn't find anything that was more realistic in Locomotion
14:02:47 <Celestar> except maybe real curves. Which was about the only good thing.
14:03:10 <Belugas> well.. mostly the graphics indeed
14:03:22 <Celestar> which didn't really look all that great :P
14:03:29 <Celestar> there weren't even depots
14:04:20 <Celestar> the pathfinder was worse than anything ottd ever had, and the AI sucked even more than in TTO
14:07:05 <ln> list of nice things in Locomotion, compared to (O)TTD: underground tracks and stations, underwater tunnels, the local/express setting for individual trains
14:07:38 <Celestar> 1) yes but interface sucked ass, 2) ok, 3) nice
14:08:12 <Celestar> and a 384*384 map slowed my Athlon 1800+ to a crawl back then.
14:08:12 <ln> the UI for building underground stuff sucks badly if there are buildings above or near. also true for building tramways.
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14:08:46 <Celestar> whereas openttd runs a 1k x 1k nicely with cargodest and 300 trains on my Pentium M locked to 600MHz
14:09:07 <Belugas> underground stuff idea was indeed apprealing, ln, but badly presented
14:09:11 <Belugas> there has to be a better way
14:09:31 <Celestar> I've done one in the map rewrite
14:10:02 <Celestar> you could use it to "slice" the landscape
14:11:59 <Celestar> ln: I've always asked myself where there wasn't just a button to switch between underground and overground view.
14:12:13 <Celestar> in openttd, we could just have an additional viewport for underground view ;)
14:12:21 <Celestar> which is coordinate-locked with the main viewport or so
14:12:28 <Celestar> so you can see where you're at (=
14:12:45 <ln> yeah, a separate underground mode would have helped a lot.
14:13:35 <ln> i was kind of hoping they would release an update to fix undergound UI, but i guess there isn't one.
14:14:16 <ln> the first (and only?) update released fixes some severe issues such as german version showing "Insert CD" in english, or something like that.
14:15:57 <Celestar> but I loved the tracks
14:16:03 <Celestar> they looked like real tracks
14:16:11 <Celestar> multi-tile curves :D
14:16:27 <ln> also stations on bridges is a nice feature.
14:22:19 <Celestar> or below bridge, even though we could do that now
14:22:40 <Celestar> we just need to graphical restrictions for those bridges and/or stations
14:26:15 <Celestar> same for crossing bridges
14:26:21 <Celestar> which might really add to the game :D
14:26:41 <Celestar> hm .. 14000 context switches per second on the server.
14:36:56 <TrueBrain> 289 / 423 ... sigh ..
14:37:25 <DorpsGek> Sacro: 0.683215130024
14:40:32 <NukeBuster> DC_EXEC is not set when doing a cost estimation?
14:41:05 <TrueBrain> that is the idea of DC_EXEC ...
14:41:53 <TrueBrain> read the documentation .. for a chance it is pretty clear ;)
14:42:21 <TrueBrain> hmm .. KDE packages gives a % complete per CC line .. how nice ;)
14:42:32 <TrueBrain> [ 79%] Building CXX object ksystemlog/src/modes/postfix/CMakeFiles/ksystemlog_postfix.dir/postfixAnalyzer.o
14:42:32 <TrueBrain> [ 80%] Building CXX object ksystemlog/src/modes/apache/CMakeFiles/ksystemlog_apache.dir/apacheAccessAnalyzer.o
14:42:39 <TrueBrain> Ithink OpenTTD needs it too :p
14:43:02 <NukeBuster> make a progress bar while you are at it ;)
14:43:08 <glx> how can they estimate that?
14:43:17 <TrueBrain> I guess it only works for a clean build
14:43:19 <NukeBuster> number of cpp files?
14:44:14 <glx> but openttd builds files in alphabetic order so it's easy to estimate
14:44:31 <TrueBrain> what has the alphabet has to do with it? :)
14:44:36 <NukeBuster> progress bar would be possible too then?
14:45:04 <glx> you know how much is needed approximatively by looking at the filename
14:45:14 <TrueBrain> glx: ah :) A counter would be better ;)
14:45:19 <TrueBrain> NukeBuster: it has no additional value really ..
14:46:40 <NukeBuster> progress bar releaves stress :P
14:46:52 <NukeBuster> makes people more patient
14:47:32 <TrueBrain> in this case I agree with glx: the list is on alphabet, so just try to 'count' to Z, and you are fine too
14:48:47 <glx> and complinig openttd is not that slow
14:48:49 <Belugas> i wonder if anyone has tested my version of fund_town stuff...
14:48:58 <TrueBrain> 'not that slow' .. lol :p
14:49:17 <glx> compared to wxwidgets or even gcc
14:49:27 <thingwath> comparing to any larger C++ KDE application... it is extremely fast :o)
14:49:47 <TrueBrain> glx: why would OpenTTD compare to GCC? :p
14:50:06 <TrueBrain> I mean ... my drinking glass is smaller than an office building
14:50:12 <TrueBrain> nevertheless, my drinking glass is HUGE
14:50:25 <TrueBrain> (0.5L in this case)
14:50:33 <NukeBuster> found a bug in 14539
14:50:50 <NukeBuster> cost estimation on level area returns a blank box
14:51:12 <NukeBuster> thought it was my doing
14:51:23 <NukeBuster> so tried a clean checkout
14:51:36 <TrueBrain> 1 per minute on avage ..
14:51:44 <TrueBrain> leaves almost 2 hours on the clock ..
14:54:32 <NukeBuster> [15:48:49] <glx> and complinig openttd is not that slow <- lol
14:55:19 <NukeBuster> bug is still there
14:55:28 <NukeBuster> I'm going to try and fix it
15:03:59 <NukeBuster> return (cost.GetCost() == 0) ? CMD_ERROR : cost;
15:04:03 <NukeBuster> seems to be the problem
15:04:21 <NukeBuster> the code never lets a failed command through though
15:05:54 <TrueBrain> I really wonder how useful it would be to install OpenTTD on my iPhone :p
15:06:57 <NukeBuster> not sure if it is the best fix, but failed DoCommands get tackled earlier
15:07:56 <NukeBuster> It never returns an error if you can't level a factory or something
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15:19:02 <TrueBrain> long live Google ... we support OpenID .. but it is not compatible with 1.0 or 2.0 .. no, we have our own 'secure' version ... how useless ...
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15:23:56 <Rubidium> Google... the new Microsoft
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15:28:34 <TrueBrain> and strangly enough ... Microsoft added OpenID, without modification ;)
15:28:38 <TrueBrain> makes you really wonder :)
15:29:39 <glx> is it compatible with MS Passport?
15:30:47 <TrueBrain> I just read the summary, and lost interest :p
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15:40:22 <yorick> the help window of openttd -h does not fit anymore
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15:50:44 <TrueBrain> get a bigger screen
15:50:56 <TrueBrain> (the solution is always simple)
15:55:31 <TrueBrain> 392 / 423 ... almost there ..
15:56:03 <Celestar> 1400x1050 is not badD:
15:56:21 <Celestar> and I'm going to town
15:57:40 <TrueBrain> see, your resolution is too low ..
15:57:49 <TrueBrain> (800 in height .. omg .. haven't had that resolution in ages)
15:58:40 <yorick> I was previously at 1024x768
15:58:54 <TrueBrain> a 16:10 screen at 1024x768 ... now that is silly
15:59:13 <TrueBrain> oh, YOU were at 1024x756
15:59:17 <TrueBrain> so you are a chatbot after all
15:59:44 <yorick> no, chatbots are not at the screen
15:59:52 <yorick> they are hidden away into the console
16:00:00 <TrueBrain> not if it would be a robot .. hmm .. interesting
16:00:21 <yorick> or I could be on a device without a screen
16:01:27 <TrueBrain> either way: rotate your laptop 90 degrees, and it will fit just fine
16:01:54 <yorick> that is not a really confortable position
16:04:15 <Belugas> so? proposition? maybe fetch the text of the help on the console, so you'llbe able to scroll it?
16:04:56 <yorick> how should I be able to fetch the help text on console on WINDOWS
16:05:26 <yorick> (without using that gui2console thing)
16:05:45 <TrueBrain> works even under windows
16:06:33 <yorick> TrueBrain: yes, but it does not list the blitters, drivers or graphics packs
16:06:45 <TrueBrain> but that you can read on your own screen
16:06:47 <TrueBrain> as those are on the bottom
16:07:08 <yorick> it displays only the top part :p
16:07:49 <yorick> stupid computer programmer
16:07:59 <TrueBrain> yeah, blame microsoft
16:08:13 <glx> hmm right the openttd -h window is too big
16:08:25 <TrueBrain> glx: even bigger with NoAI :)
16:08:42 <glx> well I can see all blitters options
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16:29:34 <yorick> what are you counting?
16:39:06 <glx> [16:55:33] <TrueBrain> 392 / 423 ... almost there ..
16:39:06 <glx> [17:29:26] <TrueBrain> 414 / 423
16:39:50 <Rubidium> at least it's faster than petern's numbers
16:49:43 <TrueBrain> glx: and I estimated 1 package per minute, so that sounds about right :)
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18:13:14 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14548 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/welsh.txt: -Add: partial welsh translation, to be finished later.
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18:27:29 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: translators * r14549 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:27:29 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-10-30 18:25:24
18:27:29 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: croatian - 9 fixed by tperic (9)
18:27:29 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: ido - 13 fixed by Cecile (13)
18:27:29 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: indonesian - 219 fixed by dnaftali (219)
18:27:29 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changed by lorenzodv (1)
18:27:31 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changed by dlunch (2)
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18:52:47 <welshdragon> can has openttd in welsh?
18:55:26 <Belugas> welshdragon, how hard can has you want it to?
18:55:54 <welshdragon> Belugas, umm, liek now?
18:56:36 <Belugas> are you commited to spend lots of time translating all those.. hem.. lottsa strings?
18:57:27 <welshdragon> hmm i can give it a bash
18:57:47 * welshdragon has done some translating for ubuntu
18:58:13 <yorick> can has openttd in lolspeak?
18:58:53 <Sacro> yorick: me and you should make a start
19:00:06 <Belugas> around 3500 lines of text...
19:02:00 <Belugas> welshdragon, if you really want to dwelve in the adventure, an account to web transaltor can be setup for ya, /me thinks
19:02:32 <welshdragon> Belugas, how much has already been done?
19:03:40 <frosch123> Belugas: you life 50 minutes in the past
19:04:29 <Rubidium> frosch123: 2710/3305 would be more accurate
19:04:53 <frosch123> well, I just used wc
19:04:58 <frosch123> also counting the comments and stuff
19:05:05 <Belugas> not 50 minutes, far mote than that ^_^
19:05:12 <Belugas> i was looking at an old repo
19:05:23 * Belugas is updating said repo
19:07:39 <welshdragon> and yes, i'll accept the account, Sacro any thoughts of having Openttd in Yorkshire speak?
19:07:59 <Rubidium> frosch123: strgen can tell how much missing strings there are
19:08:01 <Sacro> cept yorkshire isn't consistent
19:08:22 <welshdragon> use the best phrases
19:17:42 <Belugas> well.. indeed, there is welsh available on the unfinished section
19:22:37 * welshdragon would like to check it
19:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i need three volunteers
19:23:13 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: take bjarni, sacro and yorick
19:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> that's traditionally revealed after they volunteered :p
19:23:25 <welshdragon> Eddi|zuHause, i volunteer
19:24:14 <yorick> forsch123: I volunteer!
19:24:39 <welshdragon> there, Eddi|zuHause, you have your 3 volunteers, me, yorick and Sacro
19:24:39 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but really... i need diagonal stations, diagonal bridges and diagonal slopes
19:24:54 <yorick> you have diagonal slopes
19:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> not with rails in the slope direction
19:26:58 <Eddi|zuHause> not drawn, coded
19:27:06 <yorick> not good at coding nfo
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19:31:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: i have been thinking, could newobjects as some arbitrarily placed multi tile facilities be combined with newgrf_ports for more or less arbitrary movement patterns? for things like multi tile curves, or shallower multi-tile-slopes?
19:32:30 <Belugas> just... look-good stuff
19:32:38 <Belugas> with a few props of their own
19:33:41 <Belugas> newobjects can be misleading as a name
19:34:00 <Belugas> it may be more related as new-landscape-objects
19:34:26 <yorick> you mean it adds new vehicles?
19:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so you are just aiming at eyecandy, and not planning for it to be extendible in any way?
19:34:42 * Belugas is swayed by Local Authority
19:35:30 <Belugas> it has been extended a bit, at least in our heads. but it's not a revolutionnary new stuff-do-it-all
19:36:31 <frosch123> that stuff will follow with NewRealism
19:36:53 * Belugas imagines yorick's country side full of half-buried vertical cars...
19:37:35 <yorick> the half-buried vertical cars will be washed away by sea and my country side will be clean again
19:40:04 <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause, to answer you, it's based on unmovables. SO think about light houses, statues and such.
19:40:14 <Belugas> frist draft is inded quite "clean"
19:41:09 <Belugas> but on the second "wave", we'll see about extending it to cargo awareness, maybe
19:42:13 <Belugas> antennas that will guide planes...
19:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well, what i am aiming at is a) a user interface, and b) (map) storage space to store aggregated tile structures (which could come from newobjects) and mix that with a movement automaton like in airports
19:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> to get a generic newgrf way to define tiles that can be crossed by vehicles in certain ways, but are not stations
19:43:37 * Belugas would like to take whatever Eddi|zuHause took. Looks like good stuff ;)
19:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that could help to rather easily add stuff ranging from smooth highway curves over roundabouts to diagonal rail ramps or even doubletrack rail
19:45:42 <Belugas> that kind of object would be hard to represent, i think
19:45:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i know i am always thinking at least 3 steps ahead of what is actually feasible :p
19:46:06 <Belugas> it would have to be made aware of nearby tiles, in a connection way, plus some rules inside
19:46:28 <Belugas> that's called been high, Eddi|zuHause ;)
19:46:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i hear that quite regularly :p
19:48:50 <Belugas> it's not impossible, everything is possible. but let say time is something that might block quite a few good projects like yours
19:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that problem ;)
19:52:43 <Belugas> You do? Wait until you'll start working, for real... and have a wife and a kid!
19:53:02 <Belugas> then, you'll really know that proble :D
20:02:50 <welshdragon> Belugas, can i have a web translator accopunt please?
20:12:21 <Rubidium> rather send an email with a nickname, realname, password and the language to the email address specified on the website
20:16:36 <welshdragon> Rubidium, umm, emaul address?
20:18:42 <Rubidium> welshdragon: translator@
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20:57:10 * Belugas caugh it and trashed it!
21:00:51 <welshdragon> you trashed my email?
21:02:32 *** daspork has joined #openttd
21:06:28 <Belugas> naaa.... it was a joke :S
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21:14:23 <Belugas> night boyz, i shall now return home
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22:09:06 <baud> I am having trouble getting a setting (company_pw) to set correctly in ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg. Whenever I try to blank out the password it resets the password as what I initially set it at.
22:12:20 <baud> so no one can set a company password -_-;
22:13:29 <Rubidium> you were likely running openttd while changing the config file and then closing openttd reset it
22:15:28 *** Sacro|Laptop has joined #openttd
22:22:54 *** peer is now known as baudchan
22:23:06 <baudchan> rebooting didn't help either
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22:56:09 <welshdragon> if a string is {RED}{COMMA} does it need translating?
22:56:39 <SmatZ> I think it needs translating so it is counted as translated in stats :)
22:56:44 <SmatZ> but I may be very wrong
22:57:28 <welshdragon> hmm, it could break the string, that's all
22:57:51 <Sacro|Laptop> {RED}{COMMA} is left
23:01:07 <welshdragon> oh god, i'm currently translating toyland
23:16:43 <welshdragon> committed my first 9 strings :p
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23:37:13 <welshdragon> Sacro|Laptop, standard server needs a new game
23:39:56 <Sacro|Laptop> welshdragon: orly?
23:40:21 <welshdragon> yes, it's like 2079 or something
23:46:13 <welshdragon> 20th of September, 2061
23:56:41 <Char> i produced lots of vehicles
23:56:52 <Char> but i cannot transport them
23:57:02 <Char> since i do not have any wagons able to transport them :/
continue to next day ⏵
