IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-08-25
⏴ go to previous day
00:07:31 *** welshdra-gone has joined #openttd
00:33:16 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
00:34:40 *** Yeggstry has joined #openttd
00:35:04 <Yeggstry> I have a question if anyone is around
00:35:23 <Yeggstry> is it possible to play as a certain company on a multiplayer save game that I have saved?
00:35:38 <Yeggstry> i.e. I wasn't the host, and I want to play as my company to try a few things
00:35:45 <FauxFaux> Start the server, connect, click the company..?
00:36:19 <Yeggstry> i always join as the host company tho
00:36:25 <Yeggstry> I want to join as another company
00:57:30 <glx> you can also load it in single player and use cheat menu to change company
01:08:59 <Yeggstry> where is the cheat menu again?
02:00:45 *** GhostBerg7300815 has joined #openttd
02:01:50 *** GhostBerg1626110 has joined #openttd
02:02:00 *** GhostBerg1626110 has quit IRC
03:04:06 *** Yeggstry is now known as Yeggzzz
04:06:11 *** De_Ghosty has joined #openttd
06:14:02 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
06:23:44 *** celtic_cross has joined #openttd
06:29:16 <celtic_cross> Hello. I've been trying latest cargodest patch, windows build from a post on tt-forums. And I always get same assert with same game. Who should i report it to?
06:33:40 <Celestar> can you post me the savegame somewhere?
06:35:21 <celtic_cross> It's openttd coop 109 game. I get assert this way - I load it with all 4 dest options turned to "chosen destinations" and it seems to run ok. If i turn off them all - still runs ok. But the moment i turn pax dest back on - assert.
06:35:41 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14164 /trunk/src/ (ini.cpp ini_type.h settings.cpp):
06:35:41 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Codechange: simplify and unify the addition of ini items with value when not loading an ini file.
06:35:41 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Fix: wrong insertion management causing leaks.
06:42:44 <Celestar> wondering why some cargo wants to go from A to A (=
06:43:34 <Noldo> it doesn't know it's already there
06:44:40 <Celestar> yeah, because it happens when you activate cargodest
06:45:13 <Tim> It just feels like seing some of the landscape
07:03:56 <Celestar> peter1138: are you around?
07:09:16 *** Sir-Bob has joined #openttd
07:13:56 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
07:27:02 *** trainboy2004 has joined #openttd
07:54:55 *** DaleStan is now known as Guest3426
07:54:56 *** DaleStan has joined #openttd
07:59:18 <Celestar> why is it so quiet here (=
08:00:18 <Forked> there just is not enough coffee in the world
08:00:27 <Forked> but tonight I shall play with cargodest! wooh.
08:01:22 <Celestar> it's still not completely finished :(
08:03:40 *** Wezz6400 has joined #openttd
08:04:02 <Rubidium> and you said it would've been a few days of work ;)
08:07:42 <Celestar> Rubidium: well, the basic system was a few days of work (=
08:07:48 <Celestar> Rubidium: now comes the fine-tuning (=
08:08:10 <Noldo> the last 20% of features ans 80% of work?
08:08:56 <Rubidium> and it isn't even the group of "last features" as those are already delayed
08:09:05 <Rubidium> (or should I say deferred?)
08:11:02 <Celestar> er .. never planned in the first place
08:12:12 <Celestar> plus I want this done right at the first shot
08:12:22 <Celestar> and right from a feature, coding and performance point of view (=
08:23:48 *** Wezz6400 has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** DaleStan has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** [com]buster has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Sir-Bob has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** celtic_cross has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** De_Ghosty has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Yeggzzz has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** welshdra-gone has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** tokai|ni has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Rexxars has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Belugas has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** izhirahider has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** lobster_MB has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** GoneWacko has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** daspork has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** lobster has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Ridayah has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** planetmaker has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** XeryusTC has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** ccfreak2k has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** FauxFaux has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Phantasm has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** michi_cc has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** blathijs has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** synthon.oftc.net sets mode: +ov Belugas michi_cc
08:23:48 *** Wolfensteijn has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** mucht_work has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Zealotus has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Born_Acorn has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** mikegrb has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** TheMask97 has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** peter1138 has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Sionide has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** Rubidium has joined #openttd
08:23:48 *** synthon.oftc.net sets mode: +ovov peter1138 peter1138 Rubidium Rubidium
08:23:48 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
08:23:51 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v DorpsGek
08:23:51 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v orudge
08:29:00 <Celestar> peter1138: I could use some help
08:29:13 *** welterde has joined #openttd
08:31:24 <Celestar> peter1138: because my cargolist code causes segfaults in the saveload :P
08:35:12 <Celestar> but then, cargolists are not saved ..
08:35:48 <Celestar> and it segfaults in the saveload code.
08:36:06 <Celestar> in the vehicle-saveload code. but I'm not changing the vehicle class ...
08:39:45 <Celestar> I'll give you my diff
08:39:55 <Celestar> it's alphaish and incomplete, but it shows you the idea
08:40:15 * Celestar wishes his week wouldn't be as busy :S
08:40:39 <Celestar> peter1138: btw I like the idea about the intermediate orders on the forums
08:43:06 <peter1138> Btw, you've still go StationID index.
08:44:19 <peter1138> That might not help.
08:44:32 <Celestar> I've the final report of my research project coming up
08:44:45 <Celestar> so I'll have to shove some cargodest workload your way the next 2 weeks :P
08:44:58 <peter1138> Hmm, no, I'm mixing up CargoList with CargoPacket, he
08:45:43 <Celestar> I do that regularly :P
08:46:19 <Rubidium> Celestar: could you make your webserver tell the browsers that diffs are text files?
08:46:48 <Celestar> Rubidium: how do I do so?
08:47:03 <Celestar> I don't have much idea about mimetypes in apache
08:47:49 <Rubidium> modify /etc/mime.types?
08:49:09 <Celestar> Rubidium: text/x-patch diff patch
08:49:30 <Rubidium> move the 'diff patch' to text/plain
08:53:46 <Celestar> peter1138: we could handle "unconditional" conditional order couldn't we?
08:55:24 <Rubidium> nah, still wants to download it
08:55:30 <Rubidium> have you reloaded your webserver?
08:55:45 <Celestar> peter1138: at A I have passengers wishing to go to D by using A->B->C->D. What should happen if a route from A->D is no longer found? Drop the cargo?
08:56:10 <Rubidium> still says text/x-patch :(
08:57:30 <Celestar> maybe it uses another file?
08:58:08 <peter1138> Length: 13,492 (13K) [text/plain]
08:58:13 <Celestar> peter1138: I could also reroute ..
08:58:26 <peter1138> Your browser has probably cached it...
08:58:29 <Celestar> Rubidium: apparently your browser cached it
08:58:34 <Rubidium> my wget says the same
08:58:57 <Rubidium> so my ISP has some cache?
08:59:13 <Forked> Length: 13,492 (13K) [text/plain]
08:59:28 <peter1138> Celestar, rename the patch ;)
08:59:32 *** Progman has joined #openttd
08:59:42 <Celestar> peter1138: or I could leave the packets there and user to sort out a route for the passengers (=
09:00:03 <peter1138> I don't know, I've not figured out how to even use them yet...
09:00:16 <Celestar> peter1138: er use what? :P
09:00:27 <peter1138> Conditional orders.
09:14:10 *** stillunknown has joined #openttd
09:18:33 <Celestar> better than "via anywhere" isn't it?
09:21:06 <blathijs> Is there any way to gracefully handle the removal of a route?
09:21:07 <peter1138> Yeah, it explains the problem :)
09:21:32 <blathijs> Ie, mark a train as deprecated, meaning that it will continue driving only for as long as there are passengers that need it?
09:21:43 <Celestar> blathijs: not yet (=
09:22:16 <blathijs> So currently, you'll just end up with those "no route" passengers (which disappear after a timeout or so?)
09:22:52 <Celestar> or the station is removed
09:23:10 <Forked> make it a news thing.. "passengers angry after <company> shuts down route between X and Y"
09:23:34 <Celestar> you volunteering? (=
09:23:47 <Forked> I can be angry passenger #48
09:24:19 <Prof_Frink> Celestar: "1 passengers"?
09:24:42 <Celestar> Prof_Frink: that's no cargodest thingy
09:24:57 <Celestar> that's somewhere else
09:25:09 <Celestar> haven't found it yet
09:34:17 <Celestar> so peter1138, I'll be mostly out of the loop for a fortnight, maybe a bit more. You've got to stand ground at cargodest on your own :P
09:38:35 *** welterde has joined #openttd
09:48:56 <peter1138> Gah, I keep getting thrown out of SDL's fullscreen ;(
09:51:25 *** weltende has joined #openttd
10:04:02 <peter1138> Hmm, did a replace and my route vanished :o
10:15:18 <Celestar> my passengers are reproducing like rabbits
10:15:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not cool when the passengers waiting at a station exceed the town's population...
10:18:02 <peter1138> Yeah... I still don't know if that a bug in our newhouses handing, or ttrs...
10:26:31 <Celestar> all of these stations are FULL
10:26:51 <Celestar> I'm off to get some work done
10:29:22 <Ammler> did someone play with NACities and cargodest?
10:58:51 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14165 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: When over-building rail with a different type, don't convert the rail if the engines of the new type are powered on the existing type.
11:02:54 <peter1138> Gah, silly ROADTYPE_HWAY :p
11:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't know why that was even introduced :)
11:12:35 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: if you have long straight roads with many different road vehicle speeds, it helps to have better chances for overtaking...
11:13:07 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it was never implemented...
11:13:30 <Ammler> oh, you don't mean Oneway roads?
11:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the 3rd road type
11:34:10 <celtic_cross> Atm I'm playing a cargodest game and one of the stations inhibits strange behavior. I've got a small bus route inside a town (3 busses and 3 stations, also served by trams, not connected to railway) and a tram network (9 stations, connected to railway). One of the stations with both busses and trams have about 1k passengers, wanting to go through railway station, but they won't use trams unless i delete my bus route. Is this a
11:34:31 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
11:35:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
11:36:23 <Noldo> celtic_cross: Is this a....
11:40:44 <Progman> you didn't finished your sentence ;)
11:41:07 <celtic_cross> Is this a bug or something i don't understand? Reloading game doesn't help.
11:41:55 <Progman> they use only one way although there may be more routes to reach the target
11:44:49 *** lobstar_MB has joined #openttd
11:46:57 <celtic_cross> The only way to get to railway is to use trams atm. However, i think i had that particular bus route connected to railway before, but deleted bus stop... Still, only one station of the 3 served by busses behaves this way.
11:49:12 <Noldo> Tell "The Team" ie. celestar and peter1138 about it
11:49:13 *** lobster has joined #openttd
11:53:37 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
11:55:40 <Noldo> Celestar: celtic_cross had another problem
11:58:57 <Celestar> celtic_cross: you got a savegame of that?
12:01:17 <Ammler> what is that penalty for? rail_doubleslip_penalty
12:01:39 <Eddi|zuHause> for when two switches are on one tile, i think
12:08:41 *** Sir_Bob has joined #openttd
12:09:47 <celtic_cross> Celestar, yes i do. Alhough, i think i got it - bus route acts as a shortcut for a longer tram route and everyone wants to use the shorter one. Even though it is really underserved.
12:10:11 <FauxFaux> Mmm, why does the second line on the Vehicles' patches, forbid 90°, say that it requires NPF, even though it works fine with (we love) YAPF?
12:10:35 <Noldo> FauxFaux: it's old stuff, predates yapf
12:11:25 <FauxFaux> Basically, the message is wrong? :)
12:11:35 *** Rexxars has joined #openttd
12:13:46 *** Yeggzzz is now known as Yeggstry
12:13:53 <Celestar> celtic_cross: yeah. No way around that at the moment. sorry (=
12:14:29 <Ammler> Celestar: mesure the waiting time?
12:15:02 <Ammler> should be somehow possible as it is also needed for the paying...
12:16:11 <Celestar> Ammler: the pathfinder returns zero or one route from A to B.
12:16:17 <Celestar> the system doesn't see any other routes
12:17:25 <Ammler> I was commenting to celtic_cross
12:17:53 <Ammler> you have 2 routes there tram (overserved, fast) and bus (underserved, slow)
12:18:01 <Celestar> only way would be to maybe change the edge weights when there is excessive cargo waiting, maybe on a One-Station-Per-Tick basis
12:19:00 <Celestar> but that will cause the route network to be re-path-found every tick, and we hit performance issues
12:19:26 <blathijs> FauxFaux: I think the message should say "Doesn't work with OPF"
12:19:53 <Ammler> couldn't you just give penalties to routes, which have long waiting times?
12:20:08 <Celestar> Ammler: the question is: how often
12:20:21 <Ammler> you do that at same time, when it get paid...
12:20:23 <FauxFaux> blathijs: That took me a while to work out, and I kind of know what I'm talking about. ¬_¬
12:20:54 <Celestar> Ammler: giving a penalty to a route causes the WHOLE routing cache go invalid. This cannot happen more often than a handful of times per month.
12:21:50 <blathijs> FauxFaux: The problem is that OPF doesn't store the direction you're coming from, so you can't tell if a turn wil be 90 degree
12:22:16 <FauxFaux> I understand the problem, I mean that that's not a clear message either.
12:22:18 <blathijs> FauxFaux: NPF (and I presume YAPF) do store this (ie, they include the angle in the state)
12:22:21 <Celestar> Ammler: the entire reason for the routing system to basically have no impact on performance is that we don't modify its parameters left and right ;)
12:23:47 <Celestar> celtic_cross: show me your savegame please
12:25:49 <Ammler> Celestar: maybe you could fill a intermediate penalty list until you rebuild the routing cache...
12:26:03 <celtic_cross> Sending via dcc.
12:26:42 <Ammler> it is something, which doesn't change ofteh and don't need to react that fast
12:27:42 <blathijs> Celestar: Currently passengers always pick a specific route? Or only transfer stations?
12:27:56 <celtic_cross> What about manually defining routes from a to b, which would override automatically defined? As in, which network to use to get from a to b. After which it is up to user to provide valid service of route.
12:28:47 <Ammler> celtic_cross: the idea of pax/cargo dest is to have that automatically
12:28:59 <Ammler> else you have the current system...
12:29:36 <Noldo> Ammler: the idea of destinations is that there are destinations
12:29:58 <Ammler> if you define the routes self, what is the difference to now?
12:30:04 <Celestar> blathijs: cargo picks specific transfer stations
12:30:30 <Noldo> Ammler: now you can drop the cargo off where ever you want
12:30:32 <Celestar> celtic_cross: I've thought about something like manual override. dunno what Rubidium and peter1138 think about it
12:31:20 <Celestar> celtic_cross: if you could show me your savegame it could have a look (=
12:31:33 <celtic_cross> Can you receive dcc transfers?
12:32:30 <Ammler> so you define orders and then routes?
12:32:41 <Celestar> Ammler: you define orders, they define routes
12:32:49 <celtic_cross> Apart from ottdcoop package, it uses russian trams set. Do you have it?
12:32:58 <Ammler> but if you like to do that manually?
12:33:18 <Celestar> Ammler: but we could add conditionals to the orders (don't transport cargo from A to C) or something
12:33:49 <Ammler> so you would still have some
12:34:59 <Celestar> you guys make this difficult (-;
12:35:00 <Ammler> the condition to not work as a transfer line, would help
12:35:16 <Celestar> Ammler: heh. that actually would be implemented with 5 or 10 lines (=
12:35:38 <Ammler> I guess, that would be the easiest solution
12:36:09 <Ammler> but for later version, someone would like to define routes :-)
12:36:09 <Celestar> plus 15 lines and somehow telling the pathfinder what to do
12:36:53 <Ammler> arrive at 03 depart on plattform 4 at 07 :-)
12:37:10 <Celestar> celtic_cross: ok what town/stations are we talking about?
12:37:29 <celtic_cross> micromanagement ftw :)
12:38:21 <Celestar> I don't see any buses from there
12:38:45 <celtic_cross> Err, there should be 3.
12:39:38 <Celestar> heh ok. it doesn't work without the rtset
12:40:10 <Celestar> what exactly is tourw.grf?
12:40:28 <celtic_cross> Russian trams set with tourist for ecs.
12:40:40 <Celestar> where to get that one?
12:41:37 <Celestar> please DCC me russianw.grf and tourw.grf
12:41:42 <celtic_cross> That's a link from grfcawler.
12:42:58 <Ammler> there are still GRFs not in our pack ;-)
12:43:01 <celtic_cross> Wile E. Coyote mentioned in credits.
12:43:25 <Celestar> celtic_cross: ok .. everything goes via Central, right?
12:43:28 <celtic_cross> Those trams have names in ciryllic
12:44:01 <celtic_cross> I guess yes, due to buss route. But should go straight to railway station via trams.
12:44:57 <Celestar> yeah, but the trams don't go "straight" to the railway station.
12:45:01 <Celestar> they take a huge detour
12:46:25 <Celestar> which basically is your problem there (=
12:46:49 <celtic_cross> Well, i'm not a simple pathfinder, it doesn't looks huge to me, since bus route is underserved.
12:47:34 <Celestar> unfortunately, I currently see hardly any way around it
12:47:35 <blathijs> FauxFaux: I fixed the message
12:47:42 <Celestar> or make a direct tram (=
12:47:54 <FauxFaux> blathijs: Woo, thanks. :)
12:48:26 <celtic_cross> Looks like the only solution.
12:50:47 <Celestar> celtic_cross: or direct buses
12:50:59 <Celestar> celtic_cross: sorry (=
12:51:22 <blathijs> Sounds like you want to allow multiple routes or something? Or include the utilisation of a particular vehicle/route in the cost?
12:52:00 <celtic_cross> Actually, I thought it was that way. That's why i was surprised.
12:52:11 <Celestar> blathijs: see above. I can include the utilization, but I can only change that RARELY (meaning a handful times per month)
12:52:26 <blathijs> Celestar: Yeah, but that could be enough
12:52:32 <Celestar> blathijs: it could indeed (=
12:53:04 <blathijs> Celestar: The problem is, how do you measure utilisation? If you use the current utilisation, you would get a hysteresis effect I guess
12:53:34 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: matthijs * r14166 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Doc: Change "forbid 90 degree turn" patch option description to say "not with NTP" instead of "requires NPF" (which has been untrue since the introduction of YAPF). Thanks to FauxFaux for pointing this out.
12:56:21 <Celestar> blathijs: it will take LONG to adjust to an underserved route
12:57:03 <blathijs> The problem is that you actually don't want to include penalties, but include bonusses
12:57:11 <blathijs> ie, just add a bonus for the route's capacity
12:57:25 <Celestar> then an edge's cost can drop below 0
12:57:42 <Celestar> dunno if dijkstra likes that
12:58:56 <blathijs> Nope, it doesn't. At least A* doesn't :-)
12:59:02 *** Yeggstry has joined #openttd
12:59:25 <blathijs> Perhaps Dijkstra can be made to work with it, if you just cap the cost at 0
12:59:34 <Ammler> blathijs: TTDP non-stop behavier is also bad described...
13:00:08 <blathijs> Celestar: You could also make a penalty, that is the maximum capacity of all routes, minus the capacity of this route :-)
13:01:19 <blathijs> Ammler: Suggestions for a better description?
13:03:01 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: made once a nice
13:03:42 <blathijs> Celestar: In the end, you want the cost of an edge in the routing network to represent the expected time to use that edge
13:03:48 <blathijs> Celestar: Ie, waiting time + travel time
13:04:10 <blathijs> Celestar: Currently, I think that the (base) cost is travel time only? Or are there other factors used?
13:05:40 <celtic_cross> Adding more micromanagement to routes is not an option?
13:06:49 <Celestar> blathijs: DistanceManhattan * vehicle_factor (=
13:06:54 <Progman> I guess its on the TODO list but it must be choosen with care
13:07:02 <Celestar> celtic_cross: not at the current state
13:11:26 *** KillaloT has joined #openttd
13:13:11 <celtic_cross> What vehicle_factor stands for?
13:14:34 <Celestar> 1 for aircraft, 2 for trains, 3 for road vehicles and 4 for ships
13:14:43 <Celestar> I have an unfinished diff that makes them configurable
13:15:16 <peter1138> And when caching stuff, remember you can only cache stuff that can be recalculated exactly, on load.
13:15:36 <peter1138> So periodic updates are out.
13:15:57 <celtic_cross> That means different vehicles of the same network type would all be used, right?
13:19:30 <celtic_cross> I thought routing was quite sophisticated, since it wasn't posted on wiki right away. :)
13:23:16 <blathijs> Celestar: But multiple vehicles produce multiple edges in the routing graph?
13:23:20 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
13:23:40 <Celestar> blathijs: only if their orders aren't shared
13:24:21 <blathijs> And then when dijkstra'ing through the routing graph, multiple edges are ignored (ie, only the lowest-cost is used, I guess?)
13:24:42 <blathijs> (It seems quite arbitrary to treat shared orders different to identical orders, actually, btw)
13:26:06 <Celestar> blathijs: it reduces memory usage
13:26:14 <Celestar> it makes no difference otherwise
13:26:19 <peter1138> Hmm, my NewGRF config is busted... some problem with ini-saving?
13:27:53 <Ammler> peter1138: r14153 or so
13:29:58 <Celestar> blathijs: but you're right, only the lowest-cost is used
13:31:36 <peter1138> Identical orders are not identical... ;o
13:33:14 *** welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
13:37:02 * TrueBrain spits while SpComb yawns :p
13:37:05 <TrueBrain> oeh, that is nasty :p
13:37:19 <Forked> greetings, sir and/or ma'am
13:38:47 <Forked> my greetings are internet proof
13:39:08 <TrueBrain> well, I think it is safe to say there are 97 males in this channel
13:39:16 <TrueBrain> of 1 person I am not sure (I won't call your name yorick)
13:39:33 <TrueBrain> bots are male to :p
13:39:55 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Error: I cowardly refuse to kick myself.
13:40:08 <yorick> TrueBrain: I am quite sure I am male...
13:40:55 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Error: Bj... is not in #openttd.
13:41:21 <TrueBrain> lol, funny that he FIRST checks for the name, than if you are allowed...
13:41:46 <DorpsGek> Prof_Frink: Error: me is not in #openttd.
13:41:47 <TrueBrain> I have enough to do :p
13:41:48 <DorpsGek> Gekz: Error: noone is not in #openttd.
13:41:53 <TrueBrain> @kick Prof_Frinkokay
13:41:53 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Error: Prof_Frinkokay is not in #openttd.
13:41:55 *** Prof_Frink was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
13:41:58 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
13:42:53 <blathijs> Celestar: If you only use the lowest cost, than indeed it won't make a difference to treat shared orders differently from identical orders (though, hypothetically, would it be possible to share orders between different vehicle types?)
13:43:55 <blathijs> Celestar: But then, for consistency, it might be better to never have multiple edges between nodes, or at least not when their costs would be identical (so, their vehicle type is identical)
13:44:35 *** GoneWacko has joined #openttd
13:45:17 <yorick> TrueBrain: you migt add 'k' somewhere
13:45:42 <blathijs> Celestar: But, as far as I can see, the problem is that cargo always takes a single route between two stations, even if multiple routes are available?
13:46:11 <blathijs> Celestar: Which is the shortest route, which is perfectly fine as long as the cargo produced does not exceed the capacity of that route
13:47:03 <blathijs> Celestar: But if the produced cargo exceeds the capacity of the shortest route, you want the cargo to take the next longer route (if that route does have sufficient capacity)
13:47:18 <yorick> TrueBrain: @echo $randomNick
13:48:52 <blathijs> Celestar: ideally, you would want to split the cargo, filling up all routes from the shortest upwards.
13:49:08 <blathijs> Celestar: But I think that's really a lot of extra complexity
13:49:12 <blathijs> havin fffasldfkjsdaf/win 22
13:49:28 <blathijs> My internet connection recovered :-)
13:51:09 <blathijs> Celestar: And that would be realistic for cargo, but passengers might have different heuristics to determine their route (at least in reality)
13:54:11 <blathijs> Celestar: The main problem is that which route to take depends heavily on the produced cargo and the capacity of a route
13:54:26 <Celestar> blathijs: it IS a lot of extra complexity and imho not something for the first shot at cargodest
13:54:27 <blathijs> where the first one can change frequently, and the second is non-trivial to determine
13:54:58 <blathijs> Celestar: I'm just brainstorming in general, not suggesting you implement stuff directly :-)
13:57:27 <Celestar> blathijs: imho the user should optimize his routes. not the routes optimize themselves
13:57:55 <Celestar> that's something for the AI to do ^^
13:58:41 <blathijs> Celestar: Yeah, so it's probably better to give the users extra tools to instruct the routing system
13:58:56 <blathijs> Celestar: Perhaps signifying stations as transfer/non-transfer would help?
13:59:47 <blathijs> Though that's probably way too limited
14:01:16 * peter1138 has a problem with express routes.
14:04:30 <peter1138> Same problem. They take all the long distance cargo even if it's over capacity.
14:05:12 <Celestar> I'm off for a bit, we can resume discussing later
14:14:53 *** De_Ghosty has joined #openttd
14:20:44 <Celestar> blathijs: maybe you can look through the code a bit if you have ideas. it's all in routing.*
14:22:15 <peter1138> Problem I see with spreading cargo over routes is you need to keep some state, then.
14:22:42 <Celestar> peter1138: I quite agree
14:22:59 <Celestar> peter1138: we could have 3 routing networks with different edge weights :P
14:24:07 <blathijs> peter1138: If you just do routing based on a chances, you would get away without state I think?
14:24:49 <blathijs> Though that could mean that a train leaves behind cargo because randomness says it wants to take another route :-)
14:28:53 <Celestar> peter1138: just "penalize" only transfers, not transits (stopovers without vehicle change)
14:32:39 <Celestar> for that we'd "just" need to save subsequent edges or something
14:33:57 *** ddraigbot has joined #openttd
14:37:14 <celtic_cross> Is there a way to sort output of rn lv alphabetically?
14:39:22 <celtic_cross> It lists stations in routing network
14:39:43 <glx> blathijs: console command
14:39:49 *** ddraigbot is now known as welshdragon
14:40:58 <Celestar> celtic_cross: just filter it
14:41:40 <celtic_cross> Just did it, took me some time to notice filter option :(
14:42:00 <Belugas> question for all who would like to comment: Would you like the hability to repay your loan (based on your owning, of course) automically once a month, once every 6 months, once a year?
14:42:06 <Belugas> personnaly, i think it wiollbe a mess
14:42:30 <Belugas> just like... borrow, and oupss... end of month, all has been taken back by the bank :S
14:42:55 <Belugas> silly, but someone asked for it. so... good idea, or bad?
14:43:10 <Belugas> of course, setting will only apply to the player who wants it
14:48:51 <planetmaker> not really needed
14:49:45 <Forked> lazy people can repay themself.. If anything you could have a 20 year where you just pay the rent, but then you have to start paying down X % every month/year
14:50:49 <TrueBrain> Belugas: bad idea :)
14:54:15 <Belugas> perfect, i think you are all thinking like me :)
14:56:32 <Prof_Frink> Belugas: A "You have half a billion quid, do you really want to be paying interest on that £100k loan?" warning would be nice.
14:57:18 <peter1138> Wasn't that George's request? heh
14:57:56 <Belugas> yes it was, peter1138
14:58:03 <TrueBrain> Prof_Frink: it is like you expect your bank to knock on your door, telling you you have enough money to repay your loan .. is not going to happen I think :p
14:58:08 <Rubidium> Prof_Frink: no, the player should be fined heavily for it
14:58:16 <Belugas> Prof_Frink, i think warnings are not really fun in game.
14:59:10 <peter1138> The loan behaves more like an overdraft than a loan.
14:59:58 <peter1138> Rubidium, is this NewGRF settings bug yours? :D
15:00:32 <Rubidium> but I'll gladly reassign it to you if you like to
15:01:31 <peter1138> Something to do with your ini changes, but...
15:02:50 <peter1138> The list is double each time it is read/saved.
15:03:27 <peter1138> Hmm, my NewGRF config is now 1186 lines :p
15:06:34 <Celestar> > wc -l bin/openttd.cfg
15:06:34 <Celestar> 3683 bin/openttd.cfg
15:07:20 <Celestar> every appears at least 30 times :P
15:07:48 <Celestar> we're leaking HDD space (=
15:08:01 <Celestar> maybe THAT's why my openttd startup takes now about 45 seconds?
15:08:22 *** stillunk1own has joined #openttd
15:08:25 <Celestar> > wc -l bin/openttd.cfg
15:08:25 <Celestar> 6900 bin/openttd.cfg
15:08:27 <hylje> we'd have got awesome optimizations if you hadn't noticed that
15:08:37 * FauxFaux really needs to set-up builds done against svn to use a different .cfg, 'cos the nightlies appear to erase things from it.
15:08:59 <Celestar> peter1138: you're right, the newgrf section doubles in size each time the game is run :P
15:10:15 * Celestar wonders why openttd is that slowing parsing the cfg file :P
15:10:41 <hylje> maybe because it's a few megabytes in size?
15:11:21 <Celestar> well, 400k in a minute or two :P
15:15:55 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14167 /trunk/src/ (ini.cpp ini_type.h settings.cpp): -Fix: items in some ini-groups got duplicated on save.
15:27:03 <FauxFaux> Shame you can't see the other signal from behind.
15:27:38 <Sacro> you can see all railway signals from behind
15:27:45 <Sacro> the lights are on the back
15:27:53 <Sacro> the front points into the next block
15:30:29 <Prof_Frink> Sacro: Can we agree that the bit of the signal furthest from the ground is the "top"?
15:31:49 <TrueBrain> Celestar: gcc 4.3 gives a deprecated warning on routing.cpp (line 11)
15:31:51 <TrueBrain> just so you know :)
15:32:04 <FauxFaux> Prof_Frink: Snicker.
15:33:26 <Celestar> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
15:33:43 <Celestar> TrueBrain: I know. it's somehow a boost-stl mismatch or something
15:33:52 <Celestar> TrueBrain: nothing to do with openttd :S
15:34:02 <Celestar> only way around is -Wno-deprecated (=
15:35:52 <peter1138> 64 pixels is enough for everyone!
15:36:14 <hylje> Celestar: highres sprites on normalres sprites
15:38:19 <Celestar> peter1138: I wonder what's the next thing that needs doing on cargodest
15:38:25 <Celestar> I have an hour break
15:38:49 <Celestar> can't we make the tracks half as wide? :P
15:39:03 <Celestar> or the passenger wagons three times as long (=
15:40:41 <fjb> The tracks are too wide compared to the trains.
15:42:09 <Celestar> yeah, by a factor of about 2.5 :P
15:42:32 <Celestar> the ICE-3M carries no less than 6 pantographs
15:42:43 <Celestar> using whichever is needed for the country it runs
15:44:00 <Celestar> that's like an airplane carrying 6 types of landing, only using one at a time :P
15:48:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
15:51:43 * fjb wishes a BR 189 for the DBset.
15:55:06 *** Wezz6400 has joined #openttd
16:00:23 <Celestar> fjb: is that the Eurosprinter or something?
16:00:55 <fjb> Something based on the Eurosprinter family.
16:01:07 <peter1138> Celestar, the problem with longer train graphics is bends...
16:01:18 * Celestar is amazed that the Eurosprinter still has less TE than the BR103
16:01:24 <Celestar> peter1138: yeah I know ...
16:01:45 <Celestar> peter1138: I was just b!tching around (=
16:02:32 * Celestar wonders how many engines have more HP and TE than the BR103
16:02:40 <fjb> BR 103 had 6 axles, Eurosprinter has only 4.
16:03:11 <fjb> HP are not the problem, TE is with fewer axles.
16:04:51 * Prof_Frink runs over fjb with a Super Sprinter
16:05:02 <Celestar> fjb: well, apparently the Big Boy had a TE of about twice that of the BR103
16:05:18 * fjb hunts Prof_Frink with a Super Soaker.
16:05:24 <Celestar> then again, it has 5 times the mass
16:06:31 <fjb> Look at the diesel engines from the Canadian set. They have much TE but really suck at HP.
16:07:08 <Celestar> methinks the BR103 and BR101 are the only real allrounders
16:07:25 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14168 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Codechange: Make dropdown 'auto_width' a separate parameter, so that a minimum width can be specified.
16:08:16 <Celestar> heh interesting stuff on wikipedia about the BR101 vs BR103
16:08:16 <FauxFaux> What does the TE number actually mean, btw? :)
16:08:40 <fjb> The BR 103 isn't. It has a too weak frame.
16:08:41 <Celestar> Tractive Effort. Basically the maximum force an engine can deliver
16:09:07 <peter1138> Hmm, Z scale BR103 :o
16:09:11 <Celestar> fjb: yeah a bit. but the BR101 even pulls 2000ton Trains (single engine afaik)
16:09:24 <DaleStan> The force that the engine can deliver to the train without having the wheels slip.
16:10:02 <Celestar> which, on paper, the BR103 surpasses the BR101.
16:10:05 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
16:10:13 <fjb> The BR 101 came almost 30 years after the BR 103. The BR 120 had real problems with the light weight frame.
16:10:38 <Celestar> however, when the BR103 begins to slip, it has to reduce power overall. the BR101 can control each axle invididually
16:10:46 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: belugas * r14169 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: rename location_of_house for location_of_HQ, which is more exact and less subject to interpretation
16:10:57 <Celestar> fjb: the BR120 was THE predecessor to all modern high-speed trains.
16:11:01 <fjb> peter1138: Look at the train sets with animated staem engines. That really looks like Z scale.
16:11:41 <Celestar> the BR120 was the first commercially used rotary-current engine
16:12:24 <fjb> The BR 120 was a bit too experimental. They shouldn't have experimented with a light frame that much.
16:12:28 <Celestar> fjb: funnily enough, the BR101 is still one ton lighter than the BR120
16:12:45 <Celestar> but trains are heavy as crap anyway
16:13:15 <fjb> Don't let e train go over your foot.
16:13:29 <Celestar> funny how the Big Boys were meant to pull trains at slopes up to like 1.5%
16:13:50 * peter1138 only dreams of electric locomotives...
16:14:14 <Celestar> and the ICE3 goes 4% on FRA-CGN.
16:14:29 <Celestar> with 300km/h (could do more)
16:15:08 * Sacro revises the shunting yard algorithm
16:16:01 *** Wezz6400 has joined #openttd
16:16:05 <Celestar> that's about as many wheels as an AGV has :P
16:17:01 <Celestar> it's MORE wheels than an 11-car AGV has :P
16:18:00 <fjb> peter1138: Don't play with any nothern american train set. :-)
16:19:00 <peter1138> Hmm, there was some guy on here once who though all DMUs were actually DEMUs... can't remember who though.
16:20:26 <fjb> Many people don't belive that hydraulic gets actually used in trains.
16:20:41 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14170 /trunk/src/road_type.h: -Codechange: Missing enum for road type iteration.
16:20:46 <Sacro> fjb: they are aren't they? :o
16:20:56 <Sacro> i thought they used the engine to generate electric
16:20:58 <fjb> Celestar: that one has also a lot of axles and all are powerd.
16:21:02 <Sacro> which then powers motors
16:21:26 <Celestar> peter1138: most Diesel engines for passenger transport are diesel-electric from what I know
16:21:43 <Celestar> at least in any country with serious railways services (=
16:22:19 <peter1138> Tell that to my local railway :p
16:22:26 <fjb> Most German diesels use hydraulic.
16:22:35 <peter1138> Which is owned by DB...
16:22:41 *** Phantasm has joined #openttd
16:23:47 <peter1138> Sacro, class 1xx are DMU, class 2xx are DEMU... but you knew that.
16:24:25 <fjb> Diesel electric engines are new to German railways. All older designs and many of the new designs are diesel hydraulic.
16:25:13 <peter1138> Heh, BR class 201, made in 1957...
16:25:21 <fjb> Diesel electric is heavily used in nothern america.
16:26:10 <fjb> Many of the british designs are looking a bit strange wehn you are not british... :-)
16:26:45 <Sacro> peter1138: tis... rustic
16:27:01 <Celestar> mesa no liken diesel engines
16:27:56 <peter1138> The only electric on my local line is the 3rd & 4th rail starting further down.
16:28:13 <Sacro> nearest electric from here is ECML
16:28:33 <Celestar> In two years, Munich will get its FIRST high-speed railway connecting (>200km/h)
16:28:48 <peter1138> And those Metropolitan line trains are not particularly exciting.
16:29:18 <peter1138> I blame the stupid metro system for reaching so far...
16:29:44 <peter1138> Classic case of shared infrastructure patches...
16:31:14 <peter1138> Actually the London 'underground' used to reach past here, but I guess 60 miles out of town is a bit silly for a metro.
16:31:39 * Celestar wonders whether the AGV can go Franfurt-Cologne or not
16:31:43 <hylje> direct connections to mid-city? yesplz
16:32:21 <peter1138> Takes quite a long time even from the shortened line.
16:32:33 <hylje> doesnt need to be fast to be the fastest way there
16:32:44 <hylje> population density, on the other hand..
16:41:12 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: belugas * r14171 /trunk/src/unmovable_map.h:
16:41:12 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Make the test for HQ a bit lighter.
16:41:12 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: The presence of a HQ is only dictated by the 7th bit been set.
16:41:12 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: The rest of the data is related to the size and the type.
16:51:27 *** Wezz6400 has joined #openttd
16:51:33 *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
17:16:39 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: belugas * r14172 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
17:16:39 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: -Feature[newGRF]: Add support for property 0x13 for Bridges.
17:16:39 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: In other words, one can now specifies a 16 bits cost multiplier.
17:21:12 * Belugas can imagine the reactions: "the new bridges are cool, but can you restore the old cost, they are way too expensive" hhehe
17:21:46 <fjb> Yeah, I wish his bridgeset would have support for other road sets.
17:22:13 <fjb> Belugas: Make evrything chaeper and don't forget the ai that builds the network for me.
17:24:04 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
17:24:04 <Belugas> fjb, i'd say that supporting other road set is not too far away. but remember ione thing: actually, the artist has to provide the road set with the bridge itself
17:24:13 <Belugas> there are currently no overlay of the road
17:25:01 <fjb> The overlays that peter1138 is working at doesn't work for bridges?
17:25:46 <fjb> Or was that your "not too far away" part?
17:26:07 <peter1138> There will be, but I am working on rail types currently.
17:28:06 <fjb> But it will get extended also to road types? Is that the same thing only for roads instead of rails?
17:28:26 <peter1138> Was "There will be" not clear enough? :)
17:30:29 <fjb> Ok, I was just curious if it the same thing only for a different class of ways, tracks, whatever.
17:30:43 <peter1138> Well it'll be different but similar.
17:31:20 <peter1138> And there's still no thought as to having 3 road types, each possible on a tile, or limit to 2 road types on a tile and use the space to pick from a range of road types.
17:31:30 <peter1138> Well, okay, there is thought there, but no decision :)
17:32:08 <fjb> That would have to make the road type independent from the the road bits in the map array?
17:34:33 <peter1138> Something like that.
17:34:50 <peter1138> The magic of map accessors at work.
17:35:30 <Rubidium> imagine how that change would be without the accessors
17:36:26 <fjb> Hm, one bit in the map for "there is road" and then a lookup in a hashed array what type of road is there?
17:37:06 <peter1138> Rubidium, nightmareish? :)
17:37:14 <peter1138> fjb, it's a road tile.
17:37:31 <peter1138> For drawing, you don't need to know if the road type is road.
17:38:06 <fjb> Ok, I just will be sitting here and waiting for the commit. Then I will see how you do it.
17:48:38 <Celestar> Rubidium: could you, at some point, do another code review of cargodest? No hurry however
17:48:51 <peter1138> Hmm, where are aqueducts drawn?
17:49:06 <Prof_Frink> Depends where you build them.
17:50:14 <Rubidium> peter1138: tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp
17:51:02 <Rubidium> in the "normal" bridge drawing routines
17:51:35 <peter1138> Is it me or is line 1014 also executed for aqueducts?
17:52:42 <Rubidium> yes, it looks like it does that
17:53:31 <Belugas> [13:38] <fjb> Ok, I just will be sitting here and waiting for the commit. Then I will see how you do it. <-- Don't expect just one commit :)
17:53:34 *** DaleStan has joined #openttd
17:53:43 <Celestar> Belugas: one commit for what?
17:54:10 <Celestar> peter1138: Rubidium: about that cl2.diff I showed earlier. Do you have any idea why it might segfault in the Vehicle loader?
17:56:00 <Forked> huh.. some of my trams sometimes get a cost when moving passengers.. thats not fair :p
17:56:30 <Forked> (cargodest, the d98026c one? binary I found in the thread)
17:57:36 <Celestar> Forked: yeah, because some money has been attributed to the former vehicles of the cargopacket
17:58:11 <Forked> so the train got the money.. and the tram is out of luck? :)
17:58:16 <Rubidium> Celestar: my quick glance through the diff didn't find anything
17:58:42 <Rubidium> Celestar: could do another code review, but I'm going to hold you on the "no hurry" part of it
17:59:26 <Celestar> Rubidium: no problem (=
17:59:32 <Celestar> Forked: basically yeah :P
17:59:41 <Celestar> Forked: this will be fine-tuned later
18:04:25 * Celestar reads about the debacle that is called Tilting Train and the DB
18:14:33 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14173 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Don't check for rail type and catenary on aqueducts.
18:24:44 *** dannys9 has joined #openttd
18:24:47 *** Rexxars has joined #openttd
18:29:30 <fjb> Catenary on aqueducts... :-)
18:30:07 <yorick> could be...with electric ships?
18:30:09 <Niki-> hows it going? Iam playing ottd for a while and decided to intensivate it
18:30:39 <Niki-> real life ;) the most important thing on earth
18:31:09 <Celestar> "real life" exists? I thought it was a conspiracy theory
18:31:48 <Niki-> no it exists :) and there are alot of people having one...
18:33:20 <Belugas> no, believe me Real Life DOES exists!
18:33:50 <TrueBrain> bragging, aren't we? :p
18:34:00 <TrueBrain> just becuase you have one, you don't have to put it in our face :(
18:34:56 <Niki-> well I guess its your very own decision to get one or not ;)
18:37:10 <fjb> They away from real life. It only gets you into trouble. Some people get addicted to it. We lost some good people to real life.
18:39:12 <Celestar> do we still support MSVC6?
18:40:45 <Forked> Celestar / peter1138: thank you, thank you, thank you for cargodest! :D
18:41:08 * Celestar actually enjoyed making it
18:41:26 <Forked> I enjoy playing with it =)
18:42:36 <Celestar> peter1138: who's this prissi guy?
18:43:59 <peter1138> Simutrans developer.
18:44:10 <fjb> Are you able to build cannals on slopes in TTDP?
18:45:00 <Celestar> peter1138: he sounds a bit disgruntled about cargodest or am I just reading things?
18:45:12 <yorick> fjb: yes, then they're called "locks"
18:47:18 <peter1138> Well he spent a while writing one and then abandoned it because we implemented cargopackets.
18:47:31 <fjb> No, I don't mean locks, I'm talking about cannals that stay on the same level but are build on the sloped part of the shore.
18:47:52 <peter1138> You mean with foundations.
18:48:12 * peter1138 wonders how to integrate a metro system in his game in 2284...
18:50:22 <Wolf01> uh, the opengfx gui doesn't load :O
18:50:50 <frosch123> fjb: canals at sea level
18:50:54 <fjb> No, look at the passenger ship in the upper left part.
18:50:55 *** welshdragon is now known as Guest3495
18:51:22 <Wolf01> uhm, maybe I should read the readmes first
18:52:13 <fjb> But when you have cannals at sea level, then there are still slopes beside it. And you are not able to build station tiles on diagonal slopes.
18:53:41 <frosch123> fjb: you can see where the slope is, look at the warehouse below the passenger ship
18:53:57 <frosch123> the warehouse is at sea level, the road is not
18:54:32 <frosch123> (I mean the pass. ship on the right, don't know which you meant)
18:54:35 <yorick> they're nicely covered with roads :)
18:55:09 <fjb> It wouöd get flooded without the cannal around it.
18:55:46 <yorick> the roads on slopes, I mean
18:56:33 <fjb> But the station tiles would get flooded. Now I see it.
18:56:57 <frosch123> fjb: and btw. ttdp does not have a lock tool, locks are built with the normal canal tool when clicking on slopes
18:57:00 <Wolf01> 12 years with only one bus in one city on a 64^2 map to repay the borrow!
18:58:10 <fjb> frosch123: But the resulting locks are like ours only with a different building procedure?
18:58:31 <yorick> openttd originally did too
18:58:56 <yorick> but it splitted, which is why the scenario editor had no lock button for a long time
18:59:13 <frosch123> fjb: yes, but you do not have to switch tools that often :)
18:59:28 <Wolf01> the only difference, IIRC, TTDPatch locks make the ships to stop in the middle, then raise and continue
18:59:38 <fjb> Hm, I don't mind, I'm not building that many locks.
19:00:22 <DaleStan> Yep. In Patch, they work like Real-Life locks, not like sloped water.
19:00:45 <fjb> Hm, that sounds interesting. With some animated doors it could really look good.
19:00:45 <Wolf01> nice, fast forward on 64^2 and just the time to write a thing and are passed 25 years
19:01:06 <peter1138> DaleStan, how does it handle multiple ships?
19:01:45 <DaleStan> Well ... Um .. That's when the Real-Life bit kinda fails. Or you could pretend that there are lots of separate lock chambers.
19:02:25 <Wolf01> [21:01:10] <peter1138> DaleStan, how does it handle multiple ships? <- by don't allowing multiple ships on the same tile... but in TTDPatch two ships can travel across the lock, one raising and one dropping at the same time without problems
19:03:18 <peter1138> Sacro, allegedly. Looks like a yellow fence to me.
19:03:34 <peter1138> Wolf01, ah... just like Real-Life locks ;)
19:03:53 <Wolf01> ehm, not really, one INTO the other
19:04:01 <peter1138> Sacro, Purno drew it, I think.
19:04:18 <peter1138> There are bits of a proper 3rd rail system in the BRset, but not complete.
19:04:31 <peter1138> I'll try drawing one, but I can't draw too well :o
19:04:34 <Sacro> yeah, i think i was supposed to be taking it over
19:04:38 <peter1138> Too high and too far from the track.
19:05:30 <peter1138> Ouch, a 10 car metro train can carry 2480 passengers.
19:05:38 <peter1138> Sounds like Japan :)
19:06:40 <peter1138> Mind you, might be useful for all those TTRS passengers...
19:09:22 <glx> <Celestar> do we still support MSVC6? <-- no we don't
19:13:30 *** Digitalfox has joined #openttd
19:16:23 <Digitalfox> Or putting it in other words, can narrow track also have it's own construction menu like metro?
19:17:47 <SmatZ_> I think TGP generates more "random" terrain
19:18:23 <Wolf01> yes, but *random* should contain this kind of shapes
19:18:33 <Wolf01> like random(1000) should contain 123
19:19:06 <peter1138> Digitalfox, of course it can.
19:19:44 <Wolf01> the only problem is that you can't modify some things by changing a number of the seed... you'll change the whole scenario
19:19:48 <Digitalfox> peter1138 I mean not using the maglev menu but havig it's own menu like metro :)
19:19:49 <Rubidium> a purely random function can result in 123 never being returned in any finite amount of retries
19:20:03 <peter1138> Digitalfox, of course it can.
19:20:13 <Digitalfox> peter1138 great =0
19:20:30 <peter1138> (16 rail types is enough for anyone, right?)
19:21:15 <Digitalfox> peter1138 who knows, maybe in 100 years will have more kinds of transport by rail track :p
19:21:29 <peter1138> searching for changes
19:21:29 <peter1138> ** unknown exception encountered, details follow
19:21:29 <Digitalfox> But i'm sure for next 50 years, it's enought ;)
19:23:13 <Digitalfox> peter1138 can your changes also be applied to road track? Like having more kinds of road, example stone road ( a little too much too ask I know, but what the heck ) :)
19:23:50 *** mortal` has joined #openttd
19:25:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
19:25:23 *** mortal`` has joined #openttd
19:25:36 <peter1138> Digitalfox, one it's written for road types. They are totally separate to rail types.
19:32:06 <hylje> Hahahaahaha..haha ...ha.
19:32:54 <Wolf01> uhm... /me is not able to make the opengfx gui work
19:33:10 <Digitalfox> How are you Belugas ?
19:33:42 * hylje replaces Belugas with Ponies
19:35:47 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
19:50:54 <Wolf01> OMG! I want those station on slopes... ehm.. they aren't on slopes, is the road on the slope -.-
19:51:42 <Wolf01> what is to understand on that picture?
19:53:44 <fjb> I can't type anymore. :-(
19:54:36 <fjb> What is the problematic part? The eastern edge of the harbour is at sea level.
19:54:55 <fjb> A cannal at sea level protects it from getting flooded.
19:55:19 <Wolf01> eh, I made large use of those, that's normal for me
19:56:11 <Wolf01> I made an entire Oil loading station in a swamp made with newrivers at sea level
19:56:29 <Wolf01> too bad I lost the scenario
19:56:41 <Wolf01> but I should have a picture of it
19:57:52 <fjb> In my picture is a hidden slope behind the south eastern buildings of the harbour. It is hiden by the road.
19:58:28 <fjb> Nice swamp. Don't get lost there.
19:59:37 <Wolf01> I really like the piece of station near the canal, the shelves and the fake lorry loading areas look like they are on a slope because of the road
19:59:55 <fjb> You can see the foundation of the road above the hidden slope behind the south eastern crane.
19:59:56 *** rortom_ has joined #openttd
19:59:56 <planetmaker> do rivers stop flooding?
20:00:19 * Wolf01 wants newstations on slopes without foundations... a sloped non track station
20:00:39 <peter1138> You LOST that scenario? :(
20:00:54 <Wolf01> I overwote it because I'm dumb
20:00:58 <fjb> It got lost in its own swamp, I guess.
20:01:06 <peter1138> Mind you, shouldn't be too hard to recreate.
20:01:59 <Wolf01> no, in fact I should be able to make it exactly the same, maybe not the same industries
20:02:09 <peter1138> Hmm, we need a river generator, with optional swamps... hehe...
20:02:58 <planetmaker> nvm. Rivers stop flooding
20:05:44 <fjb> We need at least a river generator.
20:06:27 <Wolf01> nice, I'm not able to load my scenarios.. the editor crashes
20:07:19 <planetmaker> Actually it's so bad it needs rewriting from scratch... at least the river "path" finding.
20:10:58 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r14174 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: since now, we are 'losing' things, not 'loosing'
20:14:14 <fjb> I did load my last noai safe with cargodest now. That is a real difference...
20:15:09 <SmatZ_> hmm yeah "safe -> save", I am sure there are a few places to replace in the OTTD sources...
20:15:50 <fjb> Ok, I will never learn that.
20:16:44 <fjb> The cargodest enhanced noai game is great. :-)
20:16:46 <SmatZ_> fjb: no problem for me, I am not good in English :-)
20:16:57 <peter1138> SmatZ_: safe -> save and save -> safe...
20:43:06 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r14175 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Rewrite the main toolbars to use the standard dropdown menu system, allowing flexible menus instead of fixed string lists, and removing code duplication.
20:43:37 <Noldo> peter1138: that's road type stuff?
20:44:07 <glx> TrueBrain: DorpsGek is on strike again ;)
20:50:01 <Rubidium> so the postcommit hook is lagging or so?
20:50:36 <peter1138> Lagging just a bit, it's missing r14174 too...
20:51:12 <glx> (and it's not because its size)
20:54:36 <Kloopy> Is there a revision log for trunk available on a webpage somewhere?
20:55:49 <Kloopy> :D.. easy when you know where :P
20:56:10 <Rubidium> will be more clear in the future
21:02:21 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r14176 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix: better 'safe' than ... 'save'
21:04:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> blathijs: see above. I can include the utilization, but I can only change that RARELY (meaning a handful times per month) <- the only proper way i can see would be to factor in vehicle capacity, vehicle count, air distance, speed, timetable if defined... those are static values that only change on user interaction. spreading the passengers over different routes is a separate issue, that may also help
21:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: made once a nice <- i did?
21:05:58 <fjb> Cargo destinations can have really unexpected effects when applied to older games...
21:06:15 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: maybe it was just fun :-)
21:06:22 <Ammler> you read quite far back...
21:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i read back from when i went away :)
21:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> which was around 14:00
21:07:39 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't the semantics of the nonstop setting change anyway?
21:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause> to something like "orders are nonstop by default"
21:08:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that i suggested an alternative text must be very long ago...
21:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really remember it
21:10:35 <SmatZ_> [23:08:09] <Eddi|zuHause> to something like "orders are nonstop by default" <-- I fully agree the comment should change
21:10:42 <SmatZ_> like "Use non-stop by default"
21:13:56 *** Dred_furst has joined #openttd
21:17:35 <TrueBrain> glx: how much revisions?
21:19:06 <glx> latest reported is r14172, no mail for 14174 and 2 for r14175
21:19:39 <SmatZ_> TrueBrain: vcs.openttd.org/git/ seems to be broken again, it shows "simple merge" for all revisions
21:20:21 <TrueBrain> SmatZ_: how do you mean?
21:20:29 <glx> TrueBrain: in the maillist yes
21:20:46 <Rubidium> SmatZ_: the hg and git logs look ok to me
21:20:46 <TrueBrain> I don't see anything wrong with git
21:21:55 <TrueBrain> glx: anything else?
21:22:35 <SmatZ_> but it seems to work now...
21:22:48 <TrueBrain> SmatZ_: system was out of memory
21:23:01 <TrueBrain> mail for 74 send too
21:23:27 <FauxFaux> If the person who owns that is around, enable the pretty pictures. :)
21:23:57 <TrueBrain> FauxFaux: we own it, but define 'pretty'?
21:24:48 <FauxFaux> I can't remember what ot's called and I can't find anyone who has it turned on (and I don't use git :p).
21:26:10 <TrueBrain> (remember that it is an import from SVN, and therefor one straight line)
21:26:25 <FauxFaux> Does it not read svn 1.5's merge tracking data?
21:27:31 <SmatZ_> TrueBrain: nice, make OTTD pages "pretty", too! :-)
21:28:14 <peter1138> Mental-note... TrueBrain posts non-girlfriend-safe pictures...
21:28:31 <TrueBrain> sorry peter1138 :) I never did it before :)
21:29:50 <fjb> TrueBrain: Really pretty, but who is she?
21:30:15 <TrueBrain> Never wathced Dark Angel?
21:30:30 <glx> or Flipper (she was younger)
21:32:37 *** ben_goodger has joined #openttd
21:33:43 <fjb> I have some cargo at a station going via anywhere that never gets loaded. Will that go away?
21:34:24 <TrueBrain> With Jessica Alba? Doubtful
21:35:31 <fjb> I don't care for her. She is part of real life and real life means troble.
21:35:34 <SmatZ_> Without Jessica Alba? Even more doubtful
21:36:11 <fjb> Switching to cargo destinations killed AdmiralAI. :-(
21:36:44 <SmatZ_> hmm I thought OTTD supports cancelling cargo acceptance after several months/years ... but maybe it is a TTDP feature, and maybe it is only feature I have in mind...
21:37:45 <SmatZ_> what GUI would you like to manually cancel cargo acceptance? ctrl+click?
21:38:05 <SmatZ_> and it should be compatible with the cargodest patch...
21:38:46 <DaleStan> SmatZ_: I believe there is such an NFO feature. Callbacks 2B/3D?
21:42:03 <SmatZ_> DaleStan: I think the problem is cargo appearing at a station because (very long time ago) a train loaded there...
21:42:12 <SmatZ_> like goods appearing at drop station
21:42:57 <SmatZ_> and player would like to stop cargo from appearing there because there is a goods pickup station somewhere else
21:43:59 <peter1138> Should happen automatically.
21:45:03 <SmatZ_> peter1138: do you remember how long does it take?
21:45:51 <peter1138> I don't know that it does, only that it should.
21:45:56 <SmatZ_> I think there is such a feature, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the code (it is possible I was search....
21:46:13 <peter1138> Hmm, patch now down to 50KB.
21:48:26 <fjb> What happens with cargo for a special destination, when all scedules to that destination get cancelled?
21:51:21 <SmatZ_> DaleStan: sorry, now I understand why you misundrestood me :) "cargo acceptance" = "cargo accepted by station to be loaded by vehicles" or so...
21:53:39 <Zuu> 1. If VS studio debugger says a variable has value 8, does that correspond to the enum that has the value 0x08? Should do as 0x08 is hex and decimal 8 should be the same as 8 in hex right?
21:54:43 <Zuu> 2. does anyone know what VS_DEFPAL stands for?
21:54:55 <Wolf01> cities and industries are different
21:55:12 <Zuu> Its declared in src/vehicle_base.h :67
21:57:26 <Zuu> Just "defpal" don't make any sense to me, and I can't make it out from looking where it is used. :(
22:02:01 <Zuu> Hmm, might not be that important after all.. vehstatus is only checked against VS_STOPED at the place I'm looking at.
22:09:41 <Rubidium> DEFPAL's used to tell whether to use a palette when drawing the vehicle
22:10:15 <Zuu> Testing letting road vehicles taking over broken down vehicles. Works quite nice. Through I suspect it fails under some contidions related to when they move to a new tile. But so far it's been adding one line to an if-statement :)
22:10:26 <Rubidium> you could've found out by grepping and analysing the place (singular) where it is read
22:11:00 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: smatz * r14177 /trunk/src/network/core/os_abstraction.h: -Fix: define INADDR_NONE only when it hasn't been defined yet
22:11:03 <Zuu> Rubidium: You mean where the variable vehstatus is read?
22:11:25 <Rubidium> no, where VS_DEFPAL is 'used'
22:12:06 <Zuu> I looked for all places VA_DEFPAL is used, but its my very first time with VS in ages (read many years).
22:12:18 <fjb> When building an airport, do all the towns around it care for its noise or only one town?
22:13:27 <Zuu> Rubidium: But you're right, I should have checked the cpp file and not the h-files find in files returned.
22:16:19 *** Guest3495 is now known as welshdragon
22:20:50 *** extspotter has joined #openttd
22:20:51 <fjb> There is no place on the map where I could build an intercontinental airport. Even tiles owned by no town are to close to one of the smaller towns. There is one town that would accept an intercontinental airport, but every tile around that town is owned by another town...
22:21:43 *** extspotter has left #openttd
22:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's unfortunate :)
22:22:46 <fjb> Maybe an artificial island...
22:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i still think cities should be able to "consume" towns and turn them into suburbs
22:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause> which have an increased growth of small houses, but very few big houses
22:26:12 <Yeggstry> hi there, has anyone had experience of "stuck" trams?
22:27:01 <Zuu> Yes, but then I learned to build my tram networks properly.
22:27:02 <SmatZ_> stuck? like because they are the end of line but can't turn around? of course :)
22:27:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never ever had any of those
22:27:21 <SmatZ_> just build a train track piece
22:27:42 <Yeggstry> Zuu this is the first time I have built trams...
22:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that'll be tricky when the vehicle is in the way, SmatZ_ ;)
22:28:28 <Yeggstry> it got stuck at one of my end stations and is now speeding up as if to move then slowing down to nothing again
22:29:41 <SmatZ_> Eddi|zuHause: I think the game tests if you can demolish the tile you need to build at... nothing more :)
22:30:01 <SmatZ_> so it should be possible for trams to turn around when you can't build at the next tile
22:30:08 <SmatZ_> but I may be really wrong
22:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> busses don't get stuck at such tiles either, why should trams?
22:31:14 <SmatZ_> trams need half-track-bit to reverse
22:31:29 <SmatZ_> they won't reverse by their own on a dead end
22:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but really, why not change that?
22:31:49 <Rubidium> Zuu: it's in the progress of moving
22:32:07 <Rubidium> we're completely rewriting the compile farm at the moment
22:32:29 <Rubidium> and because we moved the webserver to another server the old compile farm doesn't update it anymore
22:32:52 <Rubidium> setting that back up takes a lot of effort when it's going to be removed "soon" anyway
22:32:53 <Zuu> Sure, I don't blame you, you are doing a greate work with the movement of server and all that stuff. :)
22:32:53 <SmatZ_> Eddi|zuHause: I don't remember, sorry :(
22:33:22 <Rubidium> but there will be a different page where you can get the list of tags
22:34:19 <Yeggstry> ah I managed to fix the tram by putting a service depot on the other end of the station :)
22:34:21 <Rubidium> but as that page isn't up-to-date yet (and contains garbage information) we're not yet disclosing it's location; primarily because a lot of people will assuming it being truthful and such
22:34:25 <Zuu> Nice. Then I just have too wait untill you anounce the completion of the rewrite project.
22:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> for exaple, it doesn't make sense that trams can't turn around in a tram stop. i hate that i have to put another tram halftile behind the tram stop
22:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and newgrf_ports is not looking like it will solve that in the near future
22:46:04 <glx> newgrf_ports needs a rewrite ;)
22:51:56 *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
23:07:43 *** Celestar has joined #openttd
23:15:41 <Rubidium> Celestar->FixBugs(&bugs.openttd.org);
23:16:48 * SpComb was having trouble tearing himself away from his vim as well
23:16:52 <Celestar> what about Celestar->Complete(&cargodest.hg) ?
23:17:12 <SpComb> (a memcached client using libevent)
23:22:42 <Celestar> Rubidium: btw: you can forget cl.diff/cl2.diff. I'm restarting that from scratch
23:42:20 *** celtic_cross has joined #openttd
23:47:12 <Celestar> st->goods[this->m_cargo_type].cargo.CargoLeft()->SetCacheDirty();
23:47:47 <glx> are you sure it won't segfault?
23:52:50 <Celestar> glx: if it does, the mistake is somewhere else (=
23:53:04 <Celestar> all of those things must exist
23:53:19 <Celestar> cargo is a class, CargoLeft is a class
23:54:43 <glx> I remember there were segfault with cargo left
continue to next day ⏵
