IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-08-12
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00:01:44 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14048 /trunk/src/yapf/ (4 files): -Fix (r14019) [FS#2222]: Redo the check for reserved tracks properly this time. (michi_cc)
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02:20:51 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: belugas * r14049 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Codechange: rename a variable to a somewhat more descriptive one. And constify it too.
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05:45:10 <peter1138> Do I need 2^6 sprites for 'underlay' ?
05:54:48 <peter1138> 6 plain pieces, 1 for crossing, 4 for the slopes, then the usual 5 for junctions.
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06:36:33 <Forked> yay for disk failure \o/
06:38:01 <hylje> damn, almost got rid of you :-(
06:39:36 <hylje> i knew my cunning plan wasn't thought out properly
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08:06:02 <Mchl> that's what happens when people think trains can stop in an instant
08:07:31 <De_Ghost> trains only stop on signals
08:07:55 <De_Ghost> it runs through 2 truck without slowing down in ottd
08:12:33 <Forked> De_Ghost: or two buses..
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08:44:09 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: truebrain * r14050 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (ai_airport.cpp ai_airport.hpp ai_airport.hpp.sq): [NoAI] -Add: added AIAirport::GetNumHangers() (Yexo)
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09:02:32 <SmatZ> peter1138: are "Level crossing overlay" to be drawn over normal X/Y road sprite?
09:03:15 <SmatZ> it is nice it will solve those not very crossings when you combine road + rail set
09:03:58 <SmatZ> maybe it would be nice if roadset (or railset) could define special crossing sprites for specific roadset+railset combination
09:04:36 <SmatZ> maybe identified by Label, maybe by GRF ID ...
09:04:47 <SmatZ> because it could look better
09:05:38 <SmatZ> like, some roadsets use barriers, some don't... and leaving definition if this on railset could make roadsets authors sad
09:06:53 <SmatZ> another two ideas: sloped horizontal/vertical rails (done in such a way trains don't slow down too much but don't get speed bonus over normal sloped track either)
09:07:01 <SmatZ> and partial snow / desert sprites
09:07:13 <SmatZ> that's all I got over night and so...
09:07:34 <SmatZ> it would be always nice to have a fallback when sprites are not available
09:07:42 <SmatZ> like, generate those sprites in runtime
09:07:48 <SmatZ> but it makes game slower...
09:08:24 <SmatZ> one question (for me) was, if level crossings should use non-ground sprites for barriers and so...
09:08:44 <SmatZ> not that it is important, maybe for one-way road at crossings
09:08:59 <SmatZ> and probably would cause more problems than it could bring advantages
09:09:48 <SmatZ> sorry if all of this has been discussed before, I am not around nowadays
09:29:50 <peter1138> SmatZ: sorry, was away.
09:30:30 <peter1138> SmatZ, the overlay will be drawn on top of designated road crossing sprites, and they will have the barrier graphics separated.
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09:44:04 <peter1138> I wonder if we could include half-height/double length slopes.
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09:51:33 <Wolf01> uhm, I think I must redraw again all the brickland tiles
09:52:05 <Wolf01> and doubling the height of every step
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10:00:21 <SmatZ> peter1138: sounds interesting... would those two pieces have to be built at once?
10:01:27 <SmatZ> when you add a rail piece and it changes slope of surrounding rail, it may look strange... even more when there is a train on that modified trackbit :)
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10:11:13 <SmatZ> peter1138: sorry for delay, lunch time here :)
10:16:18 <SmatZ> anyway, I am not here :) bye
10:16:21 <peter1138> It will have to be on foundations
10:17:14 <peter1138> Just trying to think of things that just can't do at the moment, heh...
10:28:11 <Wolf01> there's something we can view?
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11:16:25 <peter1138> Well, a draft spec.
11:21:39 <DJNekkid> how do i start openttd in some kind of debug mode?
11:21:54 <Rubidium> what kind of debug mode do you expect?
11:22:06 <DJNekkid> i dunno, some kind where i can make some kind of report
11:22:10 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14051 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp gfx_func.h network/network_chat_gui.cpp): -Codechange: enumify the DrawString buffer length.
11:22:23 <DJNekkid> i get a crash in yapf/yapp
11:22:57 <Rubidium> what version are you playing with?
11:23:32 <Rubidium> oh... then better update first to HEAD (not nightly) because it's likely already solved
11:23:47 <DJNekkid> i can update and see if the crash still occour
11:25:39 <DJNekkid> still happens in 14041
11:26:00 <Rubidium> as I said "HEAD (not nightly)"
11:26:38 <Rubidium> no it's always latest trunk
11:27:06 <Rubidium> not read the svn manual I presume ;)
11:27:18 <DJNekkid> would require me to make my own build i presume?
11:28:00 <Rubidium> (assuming you don't run a recent linux)
11:28:14 <DJNekkid> assumeing i run winxp ;)
11:28:32 <DJNekkid> buildottd should do that for i i hope
11:32:37 <DJNekkid> hmm, a purged buildottd wont compile ...
11:33:11 <DJNekkid> i'll try to do it manually with msys
11:33:51 <Rubidium> anyhow, it's likely fixed in r14048
11:34:51 <DJNekkid> if msys will work for me :)
11:37:34 <Sacro> as I want to query the right click text
11:38:06 <peter1138> Should we do all tracks as ground, ballast, track, or should we do ground, ballast+track on some occasions?
11:38:24 <Sacro> peter1138: not all track has ballast
11:41:27 <Sacro> "One way signals cannot be passed from the backside"
11:41:36 <Sacro> they cannot be passed from the front side
11:41:49 <Sacro> but they can be passed from the back when the signal is green
11:42:19 <hylje> who the hell defined signal backside as the direction the signal shows its lights to
11:43:01 <Sacro> the front points into the next signal block
11:43:10 <Sacro> the back points into the one to the rear
11:43:37 <Yorick> no, the front points to the train that is supposed to be waiting at the signal
11:43:41 <Sacro> to be honest, you really shouldn't use front/back
11:43:48 <Sacro> you should use in advance/in rear
11:45:03 <Yorick> the one way signal should have another sprite
11:45:44 <Yorick> the same as a 2-way signal, but the pole pointing to the signal block with a no-entry signal
11:54:52 <peter1138> "in rear" does not pass my grammar sanity checks. Maybe if you put it in a full sentence...
11:55:06 <Ammler> Rubidium: thank you for new chat limit :-9
11:55:49 <Yorick> Ammler: it is actually 24 shorter than it was before
11:55:49 <Kloopy> If I have found a desync problem for multiplayer games based on the nightly from two nights ago... how do I try and find out why it's desynced? The game is only 3 years into play.
11:56:09 <Yorick> Kloopy: is it reproducable?
11:56:16 <Kloopy> When we load the save game, it happens again, yes.
11:56:19 <Ammler> Yorick: I play with trunk, so my "before" was limited :-)
11:56:25 <Rubidium> Ammler: it's going to be a little shorter though again
11:56:31 <Yorick> Ammler: before the limit was limited ;)
11:56:48 <Yorick> Rubidium: why, if I may ask?
11:57:06 <Yorick> Kloopy: could you send me that save?
11:57:09 <Rubidium> because I don't want to make the draw string buffers longer
11:57:20 <Rubidium> and because the current limit doesn't even fit in the chat box
11:57:23 <Ammler> Rubidium: as long as it is around double, it should be fine...
11:57:42 <Rubidium> so the message gets completely ignored in the GUI
11:57:42 <Yorick> Rubidium: chat boxes have the nice habit of scrolling horizontally
11:57:46 <Kloopy> Sure, Yorick. Where to?
11:57:54 <Kloopy> I'll have to do it after work though.
11:58:03 <Rubidium> Yorick: chat box being the place where the chat messages will be shown
11:58:05 <Kloopy> I forgot I'm at work :/
11:58:14 <Rubidium> Kloopy: are you using autoreplace/autorenew?
11:58:33 <Rubidium> if so, it's likely a known bug caused by autoreplace crappiness
11:58:36 <Kloopy> Rubidium: Noone was using autoreplace, but autorenew was on, but as it was only 3 years into the game, no vehicles were "old" and being replaced.
11:58:49 <Yorick> Kloopy: do you have the save?
11:59:30 <Kloopy> I do at home, Yorick... unfortunately I can't get at it from here at work. :/
12:01:32 <Yorick> Koopy: does it use any grfs?
12:01:54 * Yorick wonders what happened to the blog
12:10:42 <Kloopy> Yorick: sorry, no it doesn't use grfs.
12:10:50 <Kloopy> Just vanilla nightly from 2 nights ago now.
12:11:19 <Yorick> any chance to send the save today?
12:11:44 <Kloopy> Yeah, I'm asking all the other players if they saved a copy.
12:11:52 <Kloopy> IF they do I'll get you that... if not it will be about 6pm when I get home.
12:19:15 <Yorick> reproducable desyncs without grfs are the easiest to debug, I think :)
12:23:19 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14052 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make the size of the chat message "box" configurable and increase the default size slightly so it can hold the longest chat messages.
12:24:22 <peter1138> Configurable? How silly.
12:24:40 <Rubidium> just not runtime configurable ;)
12:25:42 <Rubidium> but the configurable is merely to easily make it small enough to fit on low resolution screens ;)
12:28:36 <Yorick> I can't delete files in flyspray
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12:29:38 <Rubidium> you don't have the permissions to do that
12:30:32 <Yorick> so I can't delete files I added myself, but can edit comments and add new ones to them?
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12:31:38 <Yorick> "modify own tasks:on" <-- I can't do that...
12:31:58 <Rubidium> -> bugs.flyspray.org
12:35:49 <Yorick> what version of flyspray do you have?
12:36:24 <Rubidium> the latest tagged one
12:37:28 <Rubidium> they didn't tag that one
12:50:27 <planetmaker> you should consider to submit bug reports instead of bugs :D
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12:57:04 <Yorick> I fixed the FS#1890 patch alignments :)
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13:23:41 * Brianetta is reading the YAPF code
13:23:58 <Brianetta> Frankly, I don't think I know enough of the terminology yet to understand this.
13:24:48 <Yorick> Brianetta: what do you want to do with the YAPF code?
13:25:00 <Brianetta> Just considering playing with it
13:25:21 <Brianetta> I'd like to make trains reserve more than one consecutive path
13:26:05 <Brianetta> If I can demonstrate that, then it'd be possible for somebody to make an order modifier that'l do that
13:26:28 <Yorick> I don't know what use that'd ave
13:26:54 <Brianetta> Yorick: It means you coul dhave an express train
13:27:18 <peter1138> Express trains that have express status :D
13:27:21 <Brianetta> If your trains reserve longer paths when full, the empty trains (which won't lose cargo value by being delayed) will give way more
13:27:42 <Brianetta> Also, passenger trains could reserve longer paths than freight, causing freight to wait more
13:27:59 <peter1138> Also, I need to do the manual control patch again!
13:27:59 <Brianetta> since passengers fall off steeply on the time/payment graph
13:28:14 <Brianetta> And longer paths means we'll be able to see green signals ahead!
13:28:25 <Brianetta> Right now they turn green with half a tile's warning
13:28:31 <Brianetta> which is naff all use
13:28:55 <Brianetta> OK for game trains which have lengthy stopping distances, except for magic brakes at signals.
13:29:41 <Brianetta> Actually, trains should just reserve the next section whilst riding the current one, if possible.
13:30:01 <Brianetta> michi_cc: Woah, did you just link me to what I was typing about?
13:30:08 <Brianetta> *Before* I pressed enter?
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13:31:09 <Kloopy> It all depends on the length of the section, Brianetta... I've seen people with a massive unsignalled branch track because just one train uses the branch to get to an industry.... When the train is full and coming abck towards the main track, you don't want it taking 1 minute to get to the junction and already having a reservation through it.
13:31:29 <Brianetta> Kloopy: Such a track could stand to have one signal half way down it
13:32:04 <Sacro> well you could have 3 or 4 aspect signals
13:32:12 <Sacro> 4 aspects reserve a longer route
13:32:22 <Brianetta> I'm not sure what advantage advance signals have right now
13:32:31 <Brianetta> It's certainly not what I was thinking of
13:32:35 <Sacro> Brianetta: train could slow down at an advance
13:32:42 <Brianetta> Sacro: It can't though
13:32:44 <Sacro> and then hopefully it'd clear straight through
13:32:52 <Sacro> like the old yellowsignals patch by richk
13:32:55 <Brianetta> The signal remains red until a path is reserved beyond it
13:33:38 <Brianetta> At the moment, in stock OpenTTD, trains get half a tile's warning of a red turning green, but since they can stop in half a tile when at a signal, that's no problem.
13:34:14 <michi_cc> Brianetta: if you just want the code for extending the train reservation by another signal, that should be easily extractable from my path. then it "just" needs an gui
13:34:14 <Brianetta> Having it change colour when the train passes an advance signal is weird; the advance signal fails to indicate the state of the next signal.
13:34:30 <Sacro> so you'd need it show show green/green
13:34:33 <Brianetta> michi_cc: Seems like you've done all the work I could have done
13:35:07 <Brianetta> A pre-signal could be fun if the train has already reserved extra track ahead
13:35:18 <Brianetta> well, an advance signal
13:36:48 <planetmaker> basically, though, the concept of the advance signals just increases train separation - or is there something which I miss?
13:37:19 <Brianetta> planetmaker: There's something you miss.
13:37:27 <planetmaker> please enlighten me :)
13:37:33 <Brianetta> They cause a path to be reserved beyond the next advanced signal
13:37:49 <Brianetta> Have you used YAPF advanced signals?
13:38:03 <planetmaker> well, yes. yapp, you mean, yes?
13:38:31 <planetmaker> well, ... pre-, combo- and exit, of course :)
13:38:45 <Brianetta> was called yapp, sure
13:38:49 <Brianetta> but nbot in the game itself (:
13:39:19 <Brianetta> In the game, you have to enable yapf, and then you can use advanced signals.
13:39:35 <Brianetta> OK, these advanced signals reserve a path for your train.
13:39:49 <Brianetta> When your train reaches one, it attempts to find a path to the one after it.
13:39:53 <Brianetta> If it can't, it waits.
13:39:55 <planetmaker> well, I did use the PBS signals, if that's your question :)
13:40:05 <Brianetta> An advance signal (not the lack of a d at the end)
13:40:28 <Brianetta> will cause the train to attempt to reserve that path immediately, before reaching the real signal.
13:41:13 <planetmaker> right. so a signal to tell the train to reserve further track beyond a 2nd signal further down its path.
13:41:26 <Brianetta> My idea is similar but distinct
13:41:27 <planetmaker> that's something which I haven't seen in OpenTTD so far.
13:41:42 <Brianetta> My idea was to have an order marked as "express"
13:42:04 <Brianetta> While on this order, a train would always attempt to reserve the extra, extended path
13:42:22 <planetmaker> which reserves two signal distances... nice idea :)
13:42:47 <Brianetta> or, if we were to take this to extremes, an order could have a number associated with it
13:43:09 <Brianetta> that number being how many consecutive reservations it should try to make
13:43:34 <Brianetta> so you could set it to 50, and it'd pretty much get a clear run to the other side of the map, holding up any train that hadn't already got in front.
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13:43:51 <Brianetta> Except on busy track; it'd only reserve as far as it could.
13:44:36 <Brianetta> Personally, I'd love to do this. Then my expensive streamliner / deltic / other expensive-to-run express could just fly past, and actually make some money.
13:44:42 <planetmaker> sure, no reservation through other trains...
13:44:58 <planetmaker> it might open interesting solutions to double-tracked lines :)
13:45:13 <Brianetta> Imagine, an express train set to 3 reserved paths, building up a clear path in front of it
13:45:37 <Brianetta> As trains pull into stations, they get made to wait there until the express thunders past (:
13:46:16 <peter1138> I just can't hide it.
13:46:20 <Sacro> en route to the tt-meet I was stopped in a station and 2 expresses went past
13:51:31 <Brianetta> peter1138: Were you just singing, or expressing a sentiment?
13:58:37 <Brianetta> What can't you hide?
13:59:42 <lobster> any OTTD OSX users here?
14:01:02 <Brianetta> I use both, but not together.
14:01:16 <Brianetta> It's Helen's iBook; she's only recently showed any interest
14:01:38 <ln> Brianetta: and only that has stopped you from installing it anyway?
14:01:48 <Brianetta> ln: It's not my iBook
14:03:21 <ln> I use both, but not very often.
14:04:25 <planetmaker> lobster: what's your issue?
14:04:41 <lobster> nightlies don't work under OS X 10.5.4
14:05:40 <glx> apple needs to fix its tools
14:05:41 <planetmaker> hm... cannot talk about Leopard. I still own Tiger :)
14:06:01 <lobster> i have 10.5.4 on both my machines
14:06:05 <glx> but you can use the ppc versions
14:06:10 <lobster> oddly enough, the old PPC nightlies did work
14:06:20 <lobster> Rosetta handled them rather nicely
14:06:27 <planetmaker> lol, that's peculiar :)
14:07:15 <glx> osx binaries works on intel 10.5 only if built on OSX
14:07:26 <glx> cross compilation don't work
14:07:32 <lobster> hmm, in that case i have to compile it myselfd
14:07:43 <peter1138> I doubt Apple are too interested in fixing it.
14:10:07 <Rubidium> Apple just plainly sucks
14:11:54 <lobster> people that state ridiculous things like that really do suck more
14:12:11 <lobster> anyway, 0.6.2 runs rather fine, so i'll give that a go for the time being
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14:12:36 <Rubidium> lobster: releasing something that obviously doesn't work sucks
14:12:40 <hylje> apple's priorities are misplaced when it comes to OpenTTD developers
14:12:41 <lobster> only when random and useless statements are thrown in... OTTD still isn't
14:12:45 <ln> is it Steve's fault if cross compilation doesn't work?
14:12:49 <lobster> what it's used to be with the MiniIN anyway
14:12:52 <Rubidium> lobster: i.e. one cannot compile hello world for apple on anything but apple
14:13:23 <lobster> because i have used Linux-compiled software
14:13:40 <lobster> most of my friends that program audio software use Linux
14:13:47 <Rubidium> lobster: intel 10.5 is known to not be able to run a hello world binary compiled on linux
14:14:10 <lobster> have you ever considered that a fault of you, your settings, and not Apple?
14:14:24 <lobster> anyway, i don't feel like this discussion right now, anyway
14:14:32 <Rubidium> lobster: uhm... I'm talking about multiple independent entities here, not "just" me
14:14:32 <lobster> which was twice "anyway"
14:15:00 <lobster> ah yes, you have friends that *all* think JUST the same way
14:15:04 <lobster> sorry i forgot about that
14:15:11 * lobster is off to play some OTTD now
14:15:29 <Rubidium> lobster: I'm talking about people that I do not know here, not 'just' friends
14:17:04 <Rubidium> not to mention that the tech support of Apple is sucky at best; need to send a laptop in for 3 times before they get a KNOWN and pretty well documented problem fixed
14:17:58 <Rubidium> not even talking about the outrageous pricing policies they have
14:18:45 <ln> so let's choose Acer and Vista.
14:19:01 <Rubidium> price in euros == price in dollars * 1.5, whereas a dollar is worth 0.7 euro, which means the stuff is twice as expensive in Europe than in the US
14:19:54 <hylje> generally stuff is also priced higher around here
14:20:00 <peter1138> But Apple didn't intend for the SDK to be used for cross-compiling.
14:20:10 <peter1138> It's all hidden away in XCode, isn't it?
14:21:14 <ln> Rubidium: did you take into account that unitedstatesians do not have VAT on their price tags, while europeans do?
14:21:16 <Rubidium> hmm... not to mention that using some APIs makes it impossible for a binary to be compiles for OSX 10.5 and 10.3 at the same time
14:21:48 <Rubidium> ln: 5-7% doesn't really make a difference
14:21:54 <Brianetta> Rubidium: $ == £, too
14:22:19 <ln> Rubidium: VAT in europe is like between 19% and 25%.
14:22:27 <SpComb> but most hardware is cheaper in the UK than in e.g. Finland?
14:22:56 <Brianetta> Only 'cause Finland is (a) further from the US, and (b) speaks Finnish
14:22:57 <SpComb> ($ == $ == £) && (€ != £)
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14:29:12 <SquireJames> small OTTD question:-
14:29:47 <SquireJames> In order for a new GRF set not to conflict with vehicle IDs from another set (a TTD based set, hence limited to the old IDs) what would the first ID be?
14:30:10 <SquireJames> According to GRF maker the last ID is 74, so would 75 be the start of blank spaces?
14:32:27 <dih> Rubidium: i must say - those chat message related commits are awsome ;-)
14:34:44 <hylje> who told you we have any ideas?
14:35:01 <dih> hylje: go and hide in your dark whole again :-P
14:35:13 <SquireJames> hehe, well, assume the OTTD IRC might be the best place to ask such things
14:35:20 <SquireJames> since TTDPatch doesn't support such things
14:35:25 * hylje takes his pony and rides to the horizon
14:37:45 <glx> but peter1138 should know better
14:38:05 <SquireJames> Just part of my little project see, i'm trying to add some 19th Century stock to UKRS
14:38:17 <Tekky> Maybe the "Development" forum is also a good place to ask such questions, if nobody in IRC knows an answer.
14:38:18 <SquireJames> So i don't want to stomp all over thats already there (yet)
14:38:35 <peter1138> SquireJames, if multiple engine sets is enabled, no ID will conflict.
14:38:56 <peter1138> If it's not, then yes, start from the last ID.
14:39:13 <SquireJames> SO, okays, its a "feel free to start at ID 1" then
14:39:45 <peter1138> Yup. It will need OTTD either way... :)
14:41:09 <Tekky> By the way, is all programming in TTDPatch done in assembler, hacking the original executable file?
14:41:35 <Rubidium> though the amount of C is fairly small
14:41:49 <dih> dont they change the data that is loaded into memory?
14:42:23 * SquireJames realises that before attempting to code his new engine, drawing it might be wise
14:48:36 <Tekky> I don't quite understand why most new features for TTD are first introduced in TTDPatch and then taken over in OpenTTD. For example, this seems the case with all development of NewGRFs? Development in OpenTTD should be easier than in TTDPatch and I also don't have the impression that the OpenTTD developers are lazy. ;-) Therefore, I don't understand why TTDPatch has the leading role instead...
14:48:38 <Tekky> ...of OpenTTD? Is this maybe due to TTDPatch being around for longer?
14:49:33 <peter1138> We've been playing catch up for a long time.
14:50:39 <SquireJames> In a TTD analogy, TTDPatch is a freight train thats ahead of the express, but moving slower, so eventually the express will pass it
14:50:47 <SquireJames> the express being OTTD naturally
14:51:32 <Tekky> I hope OpenTTD will overtake TTDPatch some day. :-) Or have we maybe already done so with the inclusion of YAPP in trunk? I think TTDPatch already has something similar?
14:53:22 <Vikthor> Tekky: Yes TTDPatch has PBS for quite some time now, and even a user programable signals
14:53:29 <Rubidium> it depends one the front you want to compare
14:54:05 <Rubidium> but OTTD's more like: if we like a feature, we will have it but implemented properly
14:54:24 <Rubidium> furthermore OTTD has many small unnoticable changes w.r.t. TTD(Patch)
14:55:16 <Rubidium> like we can have multiple signal types at the same tile and AFAICT TTDP doesn't have that
14:55:21 <Tekky> I guess OpenTTD has fixed many bugs in the original game. But TTDPatch also has bugifxes of the original game, hasn't it?
14:56:37 <Tekky> you can several different signal types on the same tile in OpenTTD? Is that already possible? Or are you merely saying that we could change the map array whereas this wouldn't be possible in TTDPatch?
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14:57:14 <Rubidium> Tekky: in OpenTTD you can do that and as far as I am aware you can't in TTDPatch
14:58:25 <Tekky> How can you do that in OpenTTD? With the signal GUI? Or Control-Clicking? Ah, are you maybe talking about two diagonal tracks in the same tile, where each can have an independent signal?
14:59:12 <Mchl> it's so obvious noone notices it
14:59:36 <glx> I implemented it long time ago
14:59:55 <Tekky> ah, yes.... but unfortunately, the track type must still be identical... i.e., to have maglev and monorail on the same tile is still impossible :-(
14:59:59 <glx> (when the maparray was not as full as it is now ;) )
15:00:20 <glx> Tekky: space and sprite problem
15:00:22 <Brianetta> Does Patch have a resizeable map array yet?
15:01:00 <Rubidium> glx: it's neither a space nor sprite problem
15:01:08 <Wolf01> when peter1138 will finish his work will be only a space problem :P
15:01:39 <Brianetta> I take it the map array has a bit for rail type, and a bit for each of the six possible rail positions?
15:02:06 <Brianetta> well, rail type will be a nybble
15:02:14 <planetmaker> at least two or three bits for rail type
15:02:20 <Rubidium> there's enough space on the map for it to work and the sprite problem got "solved" when frosch implemented half tile foundations
15:02:39 <Rubidium> but that's only for the lower+upper and left+right rail tiles
15:03:01 <Rubidium> making any rail bit of another railtype will take quite a lot more memory
15:03:04 <SquireJames> grr this GRF Maker thing doesn't work, just falls over when I try to load any NFO or even part of an NFO
15:03:38 *** welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
15:04:14 <Brianetta> One day we'll have a more flexible map array, and we'll be able to have stretches of double track in one tile
15:04:43 <Brianetta> It saves real estate
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15:05:17 <Brianetta> You can fit two lorries onto a single tile, and theyr'e about the same size.
15:06:15 <Rubidium> though 4 tracks on a tile with different owners tracktypes and signal states means map space explosion
15:06:22 <Rubidium> so I don't think it's ever going to happen
15:06:28 <Brianetta> and bigger tiles, or smaller trains
15:07:19 *** welshdragon is now known as welshdra-gone
15:07:23 <Brianetta> so I don't think.... that reasoning is sound
15:07:49 <Tekky> what about having a simple compact map array and for the rare cases, where not all information fits in the map array, the map array for that tile will instead refer to external memory?
15:08:24 <Rubidium> Tekky: would most likely use more memory than the current approach
15:08:37 <Rubidium> and it would be significantly slower
15:09:29 <Brianetta> Having an array of some tile class, where that class wasn't bound to resemble earlier versions, would be an ideal solution, except that old games must be loadable, and that's work.
15:10:36 <Rubidium> I've looked at many ways to implement such a method and all of them use more memory and CPU than the current method
15:10:43 <Brianetta> On the odd rare occasion where I've wanted to load an older saved game, differences in newgrf versions have stymied me in any case.
15:11:05 <Brianetta> Rubidium: Any structure that can hold more information will use more memory.
15:11:42 <Rubidium> true, but even when the structure holds less information it'll use more memory
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15:12:16 <Brianetta> Depends what kind of structure it is. It's clearly a set of elaborate bitfields at the moment.
15:13:20 <Tekky> I think it may be best to get rid of the tile concept altogether and store the map information in vector format instead of bitmap (tile) format. However, this would require a complete rewrite of the game, so this idea would only be useful for a new game, such as Transport Empire (TTD in 3D). However, development in that project seems to have stopped :-(
15:13:45 <peter1138> Oh, I was scrolled up :(
15:13:45 <Brianetta> peter1138: The whole tile?
15:13:53 <peter1138> What would you need 4 track types on a tile?
15:13:54 <Brianetta> 4 bits for rail type?
15:14:15 <peter1138> 4 bits for rail type, yes.
15:14:23 <Brianetta> That was Rubidium making my idea seem silly by begging the question, why not go to extremes?
15:14:23 <peter1138> Oh, double track. Not really feasible.
15:14:36 <Rubidium> you waste at least 4 bytes per tile of metadata to find the correct data "table" and the most used tiles have less than 4 free bytes
15:14:39 <peter1138> A tile is the base unit ;)
15:14:40 <Brianetta> Not feasible as the map stands, no
15:16:17 <peter1138> I would break a lot of things.
15:16:26 <peter1138> And the tile is there to be the base unit, not broken further.
15:16:38 <Brianetta> Aside from a fear of using more memory, what's the principle objection to increasing the available data size of each tile?
15:16:57 <Brianetta> peter1138: I don't understand "base unit" in this context
15:16:58 <peter1138> Increasing it unnecessarily.
15:17:23 <peter1138> Nearly everything uses the tile index to identify location.
15:17:35 <Brianetta> Even road vehicles?
15:17:41 <Brianetta> You can cram at least four of those onto a tile
15:17:54 <Rubidium> Brianetta: yes, even road vehicles
15:18:09 <Belugas> adding more room for one or two tile class will just add more empty and useless space for other tile classes
15:18:17 <Brianetta> I fail to see why this poses a problem for trains when road vehicles ar OK with it
15:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> I wonder if we could include half-height/double length slopes. <- WANT! ;)
15:18:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ideally, more slope levels in general
15:19:24 <Belugas> let;s go, Eddi|zuHause show us waht you can do :)
15:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it'll probably get problems with amount of sprites needed
15:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> increasing the number of height levels from 16 to 256 should not be that problematic, needs a little bit of shuffling in the map array
15:22:31 <peter1138> That's all a bit out of scope of adding rail types...
15:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> then everything that plays on "TILE_HEIGHT" needs a little tweaking
15:23:05 <Eddi|zuHause> then it needs storing of each corner individually
15:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and then you need to define minimum slopes for stuff like tunnel entrances
15:25:14 <peter1138> i.e. it's a wiki, don't blame us.
15:26:49 * dih just misses an = at the end of newgrf lines in the config
15:26:50 * Rubidium ponders changing Wikipedia
15:27:17 <Rubidium> or barfing on non ; comments and whitelines
15:27:24 <Rubidium> and barfing on whitespace
15:27:43 <dih> actually, the load function in openttd can handle it
15:27:56 <peter1138> So I started with overlays, but basically need a whole new function to draw them.
15:28:00 <Brianetta> Rubidium: Get the [citation needed] wand out
15:28:01 <dih> it's only the way it writes the file
15:28:17 <peter1138> Which needs to be used for stations and the like too :o
15:32:57 <peter1138> And then I need to fix slopes :o
15:36:36 <eax> Hi :) My OpenTTD won't open savegames anymore :( It says "Gameload Faild - File not readable". What can I do about this?
15:37:09 <SquireJames> Never stop playing OTTD ever again?
15:37:15 <SquireJames> hence no need for saves? :)
15:37:28 <eax> SquireJames - But.. What about poweroutages then? :(
15:37:43 <SquireJames> well, yes, that'd screw things up
15:37:46 *** Bork is now known as Doorslammer
15:38:17 <Brianetta> It's OK, games only last until the 21st century. After that you're all cluttered up with cities etc.
15:38:17 <eax> A UPS? Underpowered P*rn Server?
15:38:21 <Belugas> and that save game has been created and always been used with "official" program?
15:38:37 <Rubidium> eax: either the file is 0 bytes or the user playing OpenTTD isn't allowed to read the file
15:39:03 <Brianetta> Save games are pretty much disposable, anyway.
15:39:32 <Rubidium> Brianetta: if you remove old NewGRFs
15:40:00 <eax> @Rubidium: I tried running them as root. Couldn't do it either :/ You're right. It's 0k
15:40:16 <Brianetta> Rubidium: I mean in and of themselves. Regardless of whether they load or not, I don't tend to keep old saved games.
15:40:35 <dih> eax: you tried to run openttd as root?
15:40:48 <eax> dih: For the first time now yes.
15:40:56 <dih> are you out of your mind?
15:41:26 <eax> Well I couldn't save my game in "normal" mode so I tried it in root?
15:41:41 <SquireJames> Whats Root when its at home?
15:41:54 <Brianetta> SquireJames: Unix an dLinux super user
15:42:00 <Brianetta> like Administrator on Windows
15:42:13 <ln> eax: so if your key doesn't fit to your home door, you try dynamite?
15:42:31 <eax> Or just usually hack my way around somehow :P
15:42:40 <dih> Brianetta: with one difference: not even administrator may always do what he wants when he wants
15:43:03 <Brianetta> you try deleting an immutable file
15:43:13 <Brianetta> only way is to make it, er, mutable
15:43:26 <eax> Or use "sudo rm -r "filename"
15:43:36 <Brianetta> eax: Won't shift an immutable file
15:43:41 <Sacro> eax: not if it is chattr +i
15:43:49 <eax> Brianetta: It's delete it :P
15:43:52 <Brianetta> That's what immutable is
15:44:01 <Sacro> you cannot delete an immutable file
15:44:12 <Sacro> i used to set +i on resolv.conf to stop dhcpcd altering it
15:44:14 <Brianetta> echo test > test.txt
15:44:20 <Brianetta> sudo chattr _i test.txt
15:44:24 <Brianetta> sudo chattr +i test.txt
15:44:27 <dih> eax: some guys around here have some very go(o)d *nix knowledge
15:44:27 <eax> Brianetta: No thanks :P I like my system as it is. But isn't immutable just locked or something?
15:44:54 <eax> dih: Fair eneough :) I'm just confused about that an immutable file is xD
15:45:02 <Brianetta> eax: Immutable means, literally, immutable. Can't be deleted, moved, renamed, altered, appended or even hardlinked.
15:45:18 <Brianetta> makes filename immutable
15:45:23 <eax> Brianetta: ohh okay, thanks :) But.. Where are they?
15:45:37 <Rubidium> Brianetta: then immutable is flawed!
15:45:39 <Brianetta> They're wherever they were when they were made immutable
15:45:51 <Rubidium> cause you mutated the fact that it was immutable
15:46:01 <Brianetta> That fact wasn't a property of the file
15:46:04 <Brianetta> just the filesystem
15:46:30 <Brianetta> actually, deleting a file, in Linux, is a directory operation (so you can delete any file owned by anybody, if you can write to the directory)
15:46:35 <Brianetta> but immutability even resists that
15:46:47 <Sacro> Brianetta: not if you make it 1xxx
15:47:03 <Brianetta> Sacro: No, even then it's still a directory operation
15:47:23 <Brianetta> You're being deprived of some write access to the folder, not to the files therein
15:47:47 <eax> Well I can't delete it now :P
15:48:00 <Brianetta> eax: You used chattr?
15:48:07 <Brianetta> chattr does many interesting things
15:48:25 <Brianetta> It's handy for making your openttd.cfg stay the same
15:48:48 <glx> "openttd -x" does the same
15:49:06 <dih> glx: interesting things? :-P
15:49:08 <Brianetta> I use it to stop gpg deleting the symlink to my secret keyring and replacing it with a copy of the keyring
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15:49:29 <Brianetta> Since the secret keyring is on a removable device
15:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> <Brianetta> that number being how many consecutive reservations it should try to make <- yes, it's basically an extension to what the advance signals do, you just have to have a counter how many ahead reservations the train already made, and then do consecutive calls to the reservation function
15:58:00 <Tekky> Ah, even those through signals they had before YAPP existed. :-( Oh well, at least OpenTTD has caught up now
15:58:57 <dih> Tekky: it's not about catching up
15:59:02 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: Cool (: I know it's possible.
15:59:05 <dih> or having features the other has
15:59:21 <dih> TTDPatch and OpenTTD are separate projects and will remain so
15:59:31 <Brianetta> TTDPatch has catching up of its own to do.
15:59:41 <Fennec> ttdpatch has got to be the craziest third-party patch evar.
15:59:41 <Brianetta> You can't load several trainsets into Patch.
15:59:57 <Brianetta> I believe it still only has the one map size.
16:00:06 <Tekky> that's good to know :-)
16:00:06 <Brianetta> It's Windows only, of course.
16:00:23 <Tekky> ah, yes, that is a major advantage of OpenTTD.
16:00:31 <Brianetta> I don't think it has a console, either, so you have to enter commands (or cheats) into signs.
16:00:55 <Tekky> also, when playing TTDPatch, the game feels laggy and unresponsive. This is not the case with OpenTTD.
16:01:09 <Brianetta> Not that I can be 100% sure, because I haven't played Patch since version 2 in the old version number scheme, which would have been in 1996 or so.
16:01:57 <Brianetta> Well, I haven't run a DOS computer since then
16:01:57 *** welshdra-gone is now known as welshdragon
16:02:11 <dih> Tekky: if you get passed the 'comparing patch and open' stage, you'll be fine ;-)
16:02:18 <Brianetta> I dual booted DOS and Linux between 1994 and 1996 ish
16:02:22 <Fennec> ah, yes, the sign cheets
16:03:31 <Tekky> Development in OpenTTD is certainly a lot easier and more pleasant than with TTDPatch. :-)
16:04:07 <Tekky> I notice that the TTDPatch don't even have a "development" forum, I guess because it is too complex and very few people can do it.
16:05:04 <Brianetta> You need x86 assembler to contribute meaningfully.
16:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: a problem is specifying the behaviour properly, like a problem that i see: if you mark an express train to do 3 ahead reservations, and say it won't start from the platform until it can reserve all, the slow trains will continuously sneak into that window, because they can reserve their 1 ahead path. or you make incomplete reservations, and let the train not start, then you block the junction even though the train is not moving,
16:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> or you make partial ahead reservations, and let the train start anyway, but that negates the effect of having a free full speed window ahead of the train...
16:06:13 <Tekky> Development for TTDPatch consists of making ugly hacks, I guess. I'm happy I have the OpenTTD source code for making my own patches. :-)
16:06:56 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: I'd say the latter (reserve as many as possible, and start moving into the reservations)
16:07:28 <Brianetta> Sure, a busy line can negate the effect of a full speed window. Unfortunately, as you reach line capacity, your trains will have to wait.
16:07:39 <Brianetta> You might not have three consecutive paths to reserve.
16:08:13 <Tekky> That's how trains work in reality, too. They reserve the route from signal to signal and reserve as much as they can, up to about 10 km for fast trains.
16:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> a real advantage of the ahead reservations could be "unsafe" signals, where you only can reserve a path to, if you have "permission" to reserve another path ahead, so only express trains are allowed to use those as an overtake track [which is slightly unrealistic, but might be easier to handle gameplay wise, than having the slow train switch tracks, and check if it won't block opposite trains]
16:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it makes these overtake maneuvers guaranteed to be successfull
16:11:23 <Tekky> what's the point in having a signal that will always show green?
16:12:09 *** david is now known as Guest1402
16:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, somewhat, only a different approach
16:12:31 <Sacro> Tekky: it's handy for when there are no junctions to worry about
16:12:40 <Sacro> it shows green unless there is a train
16:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem now, when you have two parallel tracks: two trains of same speed will constantly hop around each other
16:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> slowing each other down to half speed
16:13:29 <Tekky> I don't have any such problem.... just a moment, let me upload a savegame....
16:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, suppose you don't have signals on the "wrong" track, for blocking reasons...
16:14:29 <hylje> weak reservations are indeed needed for trains to be able to not interrupt each other when not necessary
16:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the first train will enter the "right" signal block, the second train will reserve the "wrong" track, up to the next signal on the "right" track
16:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the first train will have to wait, until the overtaking is done
16:15:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and then again reserve a path over the "wrong" track
16:15:34 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes the second train wait
16:15:41 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: Only if you have one switch-over for every signal
16:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, you have no way to specify that a train may not reserve the "wrong" track unless it is faster than the ahead train is
16:17:02 <Tekky> Eddi: ah, so you are talking about bi-directional double track? I thought you were talking about one-directional double track.
16:17:27 <hylje> given ideal PBS, double track can be either based on the current need
16:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i'm talking bi-directional
16:17:52 <Tekky> ah, yes, for that you need "unsafe signals" and "weak reservations", that's why I wrote that wiki article.
16:19:50 <Tekky> However, I think bi-directional double track is not that important for now, because one-directional double track works very well in YAPP. I think it's good enough for now and there are more important features than bi-directional double track.
16:21:03 <Tekky> In my opinion, YAPP will have to be optimized significantly before "weak reservations" can be added.
16:21:15 <hylje> 1-dir pbs with shifts allows parallel trains to interrupt each other needlessly
16:21:42 <Brianetta> hylje: If you have more than three or so signals between shifts it clears up.
16:22:09 <hylje> is there an explanation?
16:22:35 <Brianetta> Yes. More signals facing away put the penalty for switching higher than waiting for the train in front.
16:23:10 <Tekky> I have a shift possibility after every signal (=train length) and I have no real problems with trains interrupting each other needlessly.
16:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but then the overtake places are useless, because either all trains or no train use it
16:23:53 <Brianetta> Well, overtaking is infrequently used on tracks like that. An overtaken train is almost always stopped by order.
16:24:09 <Brianetta> Timetables make sure that trains don't need to overtake.
16:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> have you tried the manual timetable synchronisation patch?
16:24:46 <Brianetta> As it is, if a line became inaccessible for a while (say, a train crash) the other trains could use the other lane.
16:25:01 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: There's nothing in OpenTTD that I will call a timetable.
16:25:46 <Brianetta> Yep. I still won't call it a timetable.
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16:26:14 <Brianetta> If you can't say what time the train is due to leave, it's not a timetable.
16:26:21 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's a step in the right direction, i think
16:26:40 <Eddi|zuHause> a train won't leave before it's finished loading
16:26:43 <Brianetta> I don't. Its very presence means that real timetable development is less likely.
16:27:14 <Tekky> In order to implement proper overtaking, I think YAPP/YAPF would have to be expanded to implement train priorities, so that trains always have a look-ahead in addition to the reserve-ahead, so that path conflicts with trains can be detected in advance and resolved beforehand.
16:27:19 <hylje> there needs to be a notion of micro-time (daytime) for actual timetables, no?
16:27:20 <Eddi|zuHause> so, do you have an outline what's really needed?
16:27:30 <Brianetta> I'd like to guarantee a free platform at 6:30 for my express, for example.
16:27:37 <Brianetta> First thing you need is a clock.
16:27:47 <Brianetta> It doesn't have to sync with the calendar.
16:27:58 <Brianetta> It just needs to show a game time of some sort.
16:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the clock is there, it's called a date...
16:28:09 <Brianetta> Then, simple as this, an order needs to specify a start time.
16:28:21 <Brianetta> It needs to be cyclic.
16:28:29 <hylje> date and time with no actual connection
16:28:35 <Brianetta> One hour could be a game-month long.
16:28:59 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you start with times unrelated to dates, you need to specify a "day length" [in ticks]
16:29:11 <Brianetta> So, you say "Go to Funtfingford Central at 3:45"
16:29:31 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: Not ticks. You need to actually implement a clock.
16:29:40 <hylje> Brianetta: the clock may be based on ticks
16:29:47 <Brianetta> hylje: I was thinking like current orders, with a bit added (:
16:30:05 <Brianetta> It may be based on ticks. So's the calendar, but we still use days and months, not ticks.
16:30:06 <peter1138> It needs to be related to ticks.
16:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: what else should the clock be based on, if not ticks?
16:30:28 <Brianetta> The fact that a tick even exists should be hidden away.
16:30:36 <hylje> Peter-o-matic has spoken, it's decided.
16:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not seeing the relevance of this implementation detail...
16:31:16 <Brianetta> Eddi, it's easy. With a clock, you can tell a vehicle when to begin its order.
16:31:38 <hylje> would the clock be purely cyclic or would it go over weeks?
16:31:54 <Brianetta> It'd go from the end of the day back to the start.
16:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the patch does that. you specify a date (substitute by time if you have a clock, by "tick number modulo day length")
16:32:17 <Brianetta> There's no real point having a Saturday timetable, since nobody has weekends off in the game.
16:32:20 <peter1138> I have to say, I never use the current timetable feature.
16:32:39 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: An actual date? In what form?
16:32:41 <hylje> maybe we don't have weeks
16:32:41 <peter1138> I set it to autofill a couple of times but I never saw any actual effect :p
16:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and it will be cyclic by order length
16:32:53 <Tekky> The problem is that in reality, timetables are clock based (on time of day) and the timetable is repeated once per day. However, in OpenTTD, one day is too short a period for a timetable to be repeated, unless you are using the daylength patch.
16:33:10 <Brianetta> Tekky: Clock time and calendar do not need to be related at all.
16:33:15 <peter1138> Not a problem as the timetable clock does not need to be related.
16:33:30 <peter1138> Deciding how long it will be is another matter, however.
16:33:37 <peter1138> It would have to be quite long.
16:33:43 <Brianetta> Well, that's for devs to tweak.
16:34:08 <peter1138> And then... how do you set up the timetable?
16:34:16 <Brianetta> hylje: Depends whether such values are easy to divide into minutes, hours, etc
16:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: the patch allows setting a date, like "5th January 1953", so the train will wait until that date to start the next order
16:34:30 <hylje> peter1138: by giving orders a hour:minute parameter for triggering
16:34:30 <Brianetta> peter1138: On the orders. You add a departure time.
16:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> then it adds 1 round trip time to that date
16:34:43 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: What happens ot that date after 1953?
16:34:48 <peter1138> What about shared orders?
16:35:14 <Brianetta> Two trains can't share a timetable unless they're coupled.
16:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> if a round trip is 41 days, the next start date would be set to 15th february
16:35:44 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: So, when you want to coordinate another train on the same track, how do you work out which date will fit in?
16:35:47 <hylje> there /could/ be some kind of logic for timetabling groups of trains
16:35:53 <Brianetta> Here's where a clock comes in dead handy.
16:36:13 <Brianetta> If I had timetables, my trains would be *so* micromanaged (:
16:36:23 <Brianetta> I'd even experiment with no signals
16:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: yes, but it's just a detail how to calculate a current tick number into a representative value
16:36:46 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: modulo arithmetic is inexpensive.
16:37:06 <hylje> for instance trains belonging to a group could each have a hour:minute modifier to the shared departure times
16:37:16 <peter1138> 24 days is 24 hours? ;p
16:37:25 <peter1138> That's a bit short, I think.
16:37:26 <Brianetta> That's a 48 second day
16:37:37 <hylje> i'd go for some ten minute days
16:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it is a very small detail, to calculate the current tick number into a clock value
16:37:49 <Brianetta> Since there's no night time in OpenTTD land, we could use a 12 hour clock
16:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause> each player should be able to set his own clock length
16:38:45 <hylje> that's pretty arbitrary
16:38:52 <Brianetta> Well, as long as you understand that a minute might not be an integer number of ticks
16:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the current problem of "autofill" is that the outcome is useless, it does not allow for error margins
16:39:40 <Eddi|zuHause> so trains can never catch up a delay
16:39:42 <Brianetta> peter1138: 1 day per 5 minutes might be reasonable
16:40:04 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: The wiki suggests increasing the times after using autofill fo ra baseline
16:40:15 <hylje> five is A-OK, but why not ten?
16:40:15 <peter1138> 2.4 timetable days in a year?
16:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but when it needs manual attention over one round trip time, it makes autofill useless
16:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> then it'd be better to have an auto-estimate, that immediately calculates times based on speed and air distance
16:41:03 <Brianetta> Timetables as implemented are a bit useless, all told.
16:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> autofill could be left completely auto if i could say like "allow 10% error margin"
16:42:13 <Brianetta> What would it matter?
16:42:22 <Brianetta> You're not coordinating with any other train
16:42:27 <Brianetta> There's no reference point
16:42:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't need to change the values afterwards
16:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: the patch above adds the reference point
16:43:26 <Brianetta> That's almost a clock.
16:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it can be improved by your clock suggestion, but that is mainly for display
16:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and it could use displaying times for each order entry
16:43:57 <Brianetta> Having an actual clock that tells the time makes the player's life more fun.
16:44:12 <hylje> yep, a clock applet for the time of day
16:44:19 <Brianetta> It could be a window, like Jazz Jukebox
16:44:30 <hylje> and am-i-on-time clocks for each train detail window
16:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what i am currently missing is a news message "train A is more than X ticks/days/randomconvenienceunit late"
16:45:39 <Brianetta> They're all "on time" until they're late. When I was going to the TT meet, and was still in Newark five minutes before I was due in King's Cross, OpenTTD would have said "on time"
16:45:51 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
16:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you're not going to get it finer than the order list
16:47:35 <Tekky> I think all trains of a timetable should have a reference point, for example the time the first train of the timetable should start moving. In addition to this, the reference points of all timetables should be synchronizable to some global reference point.
16:47:56 <Brianetta> Tekky: I say just the latter.
16:48:13 <Brianetta> Each timetable should be synchronized to the global reference.
16:48:54 <Brianetta> The difficulty with OpenTTD timetables is that timetable entries are of the form "wait this long" rather than "go at this time"
16:49:01 <Tekky> So there should be two types of timetable synchronizations: The trains using the same timetable should be able to synchronize with each other. But it should be possible to synchronize different timetables with each other.
16:49:16 <Brianetta> Trains can't use the same timetable
16:49:27 <Tekky> if they are using shared orders?
16:49:30 <Sacro> with an offset they could
16:49:45 <Brianetta> If they're using shared orders, then each should have its own times stored
16:49:56 <Vikthor> Brianetta: How would you handle trains going from one side of the large map to other, eg. in game counterpart of transsiberian railway, where trip takes several days
16:50:06 <Brianetta> You can't have all the trains trying to be the 5:$8 to Grodston Mines
16:50:33 <Brianetta> Vikthor: I'd not timetable it.
16:51:11 <Brianetta> Wolf01: *the* Fascist state, I should say (:
16:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: the patch has a separate starting time for each train in a shared orderlist
16:51:36 <Wolf01> there are may fascist states
16:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause> only the travel times are the same
16:51:49 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: The patch has it right, then
16:52:08 <Brianetta> Wolf01: There really aren't. People use the word fascist to mean all kinds of oppression.
16:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it also has a button for "figure out the start times for each train automatically"
16:53:10 <Brianetta> That's cool, too. If the times were understandable clock times, then it'd be the business.
16:53:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: technically, italy is really the origin of fascism
16:53:57 <Tekky> The definition of fascism is too vague for me.......
16:54:05 <Brianetta> What annoys me is people who call racists, "fascist." Fascism is extremely nationalist, not necessarily racist.
16:54:08 <Tekky> Therefore, this word doesn't mean much to me.
16:54:27 <Wolf01> yes you are right, but Italy is really a fascist state, the law forbid fascism apology but if you go around you will find always and everywere people which perform the roman greeting and love the Dux
16:57:52 <Brianetta> OK, I'm catching the train home.
17:00:56 <Tekky> yes, I read those definitions, but they are still too vague for me.....
17:01:10 <planetmaker> Eddi, could give the link to the altered time table patch? It's not in my backlog...
17:02:33 <planetmaker> I guess so. Thx :) Sounds quite interesting to have real time tables :)
17:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what's kinda counterintuitive is, the given date is when the train starts the timetable, and the timetable starts with the waiting time at the first station
17:04:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so the train doesn't leave on the starting date, but like 10 days after the starting date
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17:05:03 <planetmaker> hm... but that doesn't sound like something which couldn't be remedied.
17:06:42 <planetmaker> and it's a step in a nice direction. Especially, if you want to build an s-bahn system for towns.
17:06:50 <Eddi|zuHause> "Do not give your Lira to any corporation [...]" <- someone missed the introduction of the euro 6 years ago :p
17:07:05 <peter1138> Timetables don't need "travel for" and "wait" times.
17:07:13 <peter1138> They just need a leaving time.
17:07:47 <planetmaker> but you'd need an estimate for the travel time in order to set the leaving times :)
17:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, stations that have longer waiting times do have a "arrival" and a "depart" time
17:07:54 <planetmaker> at least initially
17:07:56 <Fennec> Feature Request: Start gameplay with lira. Switch to Euro in 2000-whenever-ish. :)
17:08:19 <peter1138> planetmaker, no you don't.
17:08:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Fennec: errr.. that is already implemented...
17:08:24 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, true...
17:09:05 * Fennec usually does GBP, EUR, USD.
17:09:06 <peter1138> planetmaker: your autofill can fill in the times that it left.
17:09:09 <planetmaker> peter1138: well, but how do you judge the travel time or set the departure times for a new train on a new route, if you've no idea?
17:09:34 <peter1138> If you had a visible clock, you'd be able to see it ;)
17:09:38 <planetmaker> and then manually tweak it...
17:09:52 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i already voiced my concerns against autofill. an auto-estimate might be more useful
17:10:07 <peter1138> estimating it fraught with peril
17:10:12 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: what's the prinicipal concern of yours?
17:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is a) the current autofill result is useless, because it must be modified afterwards
17:10:48 <peter1138> Shared orders must be supported, presumably with an offset for each vehicle, possibly determined automatically by the number of vehicles.
17:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> b) within one round trip time, you have so many other things to do, that you forget that adjustment
17:11:24 <planetmaker> hehe :) that's true indeed :)
17:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the patch by Maedhros has that
17:11:34 <planetmaker> but for that case I sticky the vehicle's window.
17:11:34 <peter1138> But a guestimate is hardly that useful either.
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17:11:48 <planetmaker> peter1138: that'd be nice.
17:11:54 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but i immediately have a result that i can work on
17:12:26 <planetmaker> whether guestimate or autofill - I don't mind. Either is fine IMO
17:12:50 <planetmaker> autofill just takes a jiffy longer.
17:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> my autofill problem would mostly be solved by an automatic [configurable] error margin
17:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> like "autofill with error of 10%"
17:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> then autofilled trains have the ability to catch up delays
17:13:46 <planetmaker> meaning to enlarge all travel times by 10%?
17:14:05 <planetmaker> sounds reasonable :)
17:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the current autofill result is too strict. even 1 tick delay per round trip will add up
17:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and you are certainly getting delays, because the stations were empty on the first round trip
17:15:17 <planetmaker> I usually use it such that I don't specify travel times. Just loading times
17:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to specify all if you are really going to synchronise the network
17:16:08 <planetmaker> for exactly the reason that trains travel like usual anyway... accumulating delays
17:16:32 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes, I know :). As said: would be nice.
17:20:49 <peter1138> Heh, non-destinations totally fails :)
17:27:45 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
17:28:58 <Brianetta> That includes an emergency toilet visit (:
17:34:29 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
17:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't use the toilet on the train?
17:36:56 *** Brainstorm2 has joined #openttd
17:37:25 *** Brainstorm2 is now known as Brainstorm
17:38:22 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: Tyne & Wear Metro has no toilets.
17:38:26 <Brianetta> It's like the Tube.
17:38:43 <Brianetta> In fact, it's more like the Berlin S-Bahn
17:38:53 <Brianetta> Same look, level platforms, everything.
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17:42:39 <Prof_Frink> ELC Tech. All-Terrain Tube Train!
17:43:30 <Brianetta> Prof_Frink: Oh yeah
17:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you want me to list differences? ;)
17:43:55 <Brianetta> Eddi: Similarities (:
17:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, 3rd rail vs. catenary is very obvious ;)
17:44:16 <Brianetta> Not saying they're identical. They're just more like each other than many random pairs of trains.
17:44:36 <Brianetta> Not just the technical stuff, but the aesthetics
17:44:49 <Brianetta> Both have level platform access, and both are square
17:45:13 <Brianetta> Both have no bloody toilet
17:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the "S-Bahn" here uses standard double-decker wagons
17:45:45 <Brianetta> The loading guage inthe UK is too low for that, so it's abnormal here, not standard.
17:46:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but it is always said that this doesn't fit the description of an "S-Bahn"
17:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean "standard" in the sense of "the same they use for normal short distance trains"
17:47:29 <Brianetta> That's the only double deck train the UK has ever used
17:47:47 <Brianetta> You'd be forgiven for not realising that if you saw one
17:48:16 <Brianetta> Check out the interleaved feet and heads
17:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i've read about british double decker wagons, but not seen them
17:48:36 <Brianetta> They were withdrawn after, like, two minutes
17:48:37 <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: Double decked bits of Le Shuttle?
17:48:52 <Brianetta> Eddi: That s-bahn would hit every bridge in the UK
17:49:42 <Prof_Frink> Brianetta: That's genius!
17:50:25 <Brianetta> Prof_Frink: It sucked in the sun
17:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: the flaw in your design is that the lower row is not lowered between the wheels
17:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that wastes enormous amounts of space
17:52:28 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, around here, double decker wagons are really somewhat "standard"
17:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> like half of the regional trains use them
17:54:18 <Prof_Frink> Nah, they should just make the inside into one big bouncy castle/ball pit
17:54:32 <Prof_Frink> Then people wouldn't care that they weren't going anywhere.
18:01:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
18:02:51 <Prof_Frink> Bjarni: Sacro's back.
18:03:45 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: glx * r14053 /trunk/ (Makefile.in Makefile.src.in): -Fix: branch detection failed for svn+ssh repos
18:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and some not so nice ones ;)
18:10:20 <Bjarni> those double decker wagons... they somehow look familiar
18:10:35 <Bjarni> we have something very similar here (except for the colour)
18:10:43 <Bjarni> are they made by Bombadier?
18:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> they are made in Görlitz, afaik
18:11:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know who owns that by now...
18:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't everything owned by Bombardier meanwhile?
18:12:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the development of the double decker wagons goes back to the pre-WWII wagons of the Lübeck-Büchener Eisenbahn (LBE)
18:12:22 <Bjarni> but it fits the description I got of "our" double decker wagons, that they are build by Bombadier in what used to be DDR
18:12:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and went on through the entire DDR time
18:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the few things that survived the DDR
18:13:34 <Bjarni> the railroad seems happy about them
18:13:47 <Bjarni> I think 58 tons for a single passenger wagon is too much though
18:14:27 <dih> Rubidium: the server only sends 189 chars of chat message to the clients (including \0)
18:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i haven't managed to visit the historic trains in Leipzig yet...
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18:17:41 <Brianetta> die Ferkeltaxe is pretty cool (:
18:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause> ("Ferkel" == little pig, in case you don't know)
18:19:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, "Schienenbus" ("Railbus") is the official name
18:19:35 <Brianetta> British Rail needed trains on the cheap
18:19:49 <Brianetta> so they contacted bus manufacturers, and made the Pacer on that technology
18:20:03 <Brianetta> They have bus seats, windows, doors, even the rails you hold if you stand
18:20:37 <Brianetta> The prototype even looks like a bus
18:20:38 <dih> Rubidium, correction, 195 chars including \0
18:20:47 <Brianetta> They basically changed the wheels.
18:26:35 <hylje> blackpool has bus-based trams IIRC
18:26:51 <Brianetta> That's the bus the Pacer was built from
18:27:40 <Alberth> Did somebody here received an email from FlySpray that I'd like to re-open issue 776 (not pausing initially when starting a new game with a scenario)?
18:28:02 <Brianetta> Farbgebung is livery, isn't it?
18:28:53 *** TrueBrain has joined #openttd
18:28:57 <Brianetta> Basically the same thing (:
18:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Farb[e] (colour) + geb[en] (give) + -ung (common ending for nouns)
18:30:34 <Alberth> TrueBrain: That may depend on your definition of alive :P
18:30:45 <TrueBrain> Alberth: I trust their definition
18:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar said something about being away
18:31:23 <mikl> The German language is amazing
18:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> sure it is... i would not know how to derive the meaning of "Livery"... what does it have to do with "living"?
18:32:16 <mikl> No matter what you say in it, it sounds like you're talking about something which is made from steel and whose weight is measured in tonnes ;)
18:32:54 <mikl> …or perhaps I'm just traumatised from being forced to learn it in school :)
18:33:07 <SpComb> hmm... would it be a good idea to try playing a game with the new paxdest stuff at this point?
18:34:56 <mikl> livery: ORIGIN Middle English : from Old French livree ‘delivered,’ […] The original sense was [the dispensing of food, provisions, or clothing to servants]
18:35:18 <mikl> so, livery was originally the clothes you gave your servants :)
18:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so basically it described how you dressed your folks
18:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and that shifted to how you coloured your cars
18:36:46 <SpComb> does someone have a link to an alternative paxdest repo?
18:36:59 <mikl> yeah. It has an alternative meaning as well "resembling liver in color or consistency"
18:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause> german makes way more sense ;)
18:38:09 <mikl> actually, it still means "special uniform worn by a servant or official." in addition to the train-stuff
18:39:29 <mikl> but yeah, the german thing is more direct. Could be translated "coloring"
18:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's basically it...
18:40:25 * SpComb prods Celestar and peter1138
18:41:59 <mikl> though only the clothes-part of it
18:42:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never ever heard the word "livery" outside TT context
18:43:10 <mikl> In Danish, it's "liberi"
18:43:41 <Brianetta> Eddi: Livery is a well known English word for vehicular colour schemes. It comes from horse-drawn carriages having a crest on the side, co-ordinated with the dress of the footmen or other servants.
18:43:42 <frosch123> liberi is latin for books
18:44:13 <Bjarni> I have honestly never heard the word "liberi"
18:44:33 <frosch123> maybe you should try with dutch in that case :p
18:44:53 <mikl> a site for train geeks of course :)
18:46:11 <Sacro> goes well with sausages
18:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the meaning may be obvious for native speakers, but there is absolutely no obvious connection between the words "livery" and "colour"
18:46:49 <Brianetta> It's a heraldric thing
18:47:17 <mikl> yeah, it's not just the colors
18:47:29 <guru3> has anyone been working on openttd for half their life yet?
18:47:40 <Bjarni> Laird crosshead: krydshoved til to overliggende linealer <--- now who understands this (besides me)? :)
18:47:48 <Brianetta> It isn't that old, guru3
18:47:56 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you mean by "working"
18:48:00 <mikl> guru3: if you count the time i spent playing TTD as a child…
18:48:12 <Brianetta> I never got to play TTD as a child
18:48:13 <Belugas> for half of my working time for 2 years, yes, i do raise my hand
18:48:18 <guru3> programming, playing the game, moderating the forums
18:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> TT (original) is roughly half as old as i am now.
18:48:43 <mikl> heh, TTD was one of the first games I bought
18:48:51 <guru3> i was just doing the math and in another 4 years ill have spent half my life on armagetron
18:48:59 <mikl> had TT pirated before that
18:49:02 <Bjarni> the first game I got was Wheeling Wallie
18:49:12 <Bjarni> this predates TT with like 10 years
18:49:26 <guru3> TT was the second game i was really into
18:49:32 <guru3> Pitfall The Mayan Adventure was before that
18:49:44 <guru3> but i haven't been as involved with openttd as i have been with AA
18:50:28 <guru3> just the thought "when i'm 24 i'll have first played armagetron 12 years ago and started running the forums for it 8 years ago" is scary... 1/2 and 1/3rd my life on a game
18:50:33 <Brianetta> Half my life... the only game I'veplayed that long is Elite
18:50:36 <Bjarni> in the meantime mikl can figure out what "krydshoved til to overliggende linealer" means in common human language :)
18:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "Angeblich sollen doch demnächst 200 km/h-Dostos für den München-Nürnberg-Express kommen! Davor ne 120, und fertig ist die schnellste S-Bahn Deutschlands!" lmao :p
18:52:01 <guru3> i guess im the ony person that worries about these things
18:52:06 * guru3 fades into the backgroundd of worry
18:52:13 <TrueBrain> @kick Eddi|zuHause I hate german
18:52:27 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: I don't recognize you.
18:52:31 <TrueBrain> aint this the sadest?
18:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> ln said it was ok if it was in quotes...
18:52:54 <ln> but let me express the same in english: "Allegedly but will soon be 200 km / h Dostos for the Munich-Nuremberg Shipping! Previously ne 120, and finished the fastest S-Bahn in Germany!"
18:52:56 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: ln says a lot .. you also believe him if he says the earth is flat?
18:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause> not that ln has actually any authority :p
18:53:10 <TrueBrain> @kick ln that aint english
18:53:10 *** ln was kicked by DorpsGek (that aint english)
18:53:43 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: no, i only believe things that help my cause ;)
18:53:46 <TrueBrain> @kick TrueBrain no MSN smilies here!
18:53:46 *** TrueBrain was kicked by DorpsGek (no MSN smilies here!)
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18:59:00 *** `Fuco` is now known as Fuco
19:00:05 <Alberth> Did any dev already have a look at my Hierarchical Widgets patch I posted at the forum? I'd like to continue, and would appreciate a few directions
19:01:54 <Noldo> TrueBrain: har har, but nice to see you here
19:05:52 *** Farden123 is now known as Farden
19:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> daylength patches have the inherent problem of not correctly specifying which things are considered to be daily (delayed) and which things are by tick (normal)
19:09:59 <TrueBrain> Noldo: don't get used to it :p
19:16:35 <Bjarni> mikl: did you figure it out? :)
19:17:35 <mikl> I'm probably better off not knowing
19:17:40 <SpComb> is there some patch option to not have industries die away as time goes by and you don't service them?
19:18:12 <Bjarni> mikl: what good is a dictionary if you don't get what the translation is?
19:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> you can write a newgrf ;)
19:18:20 <Rubidium> yes, it's called NewGRF (also available in patch)
19:18:24 * peter1138 prods TrueBrain back
19:18:53 <SpComb> industry expiration is a NewGRF feature?
19:19:08 <Rubidium> it's NewGRF controllable
19:19:26 <mikl> Bjarni: well, at least you can then find out that it was something that you were not meant to understand :)
19:19:48 <Bjarni> mikl: basically there is a rod sticking out of the piston on a steam locomotive. Somewhere it's connected to the wheels and the word in question means the join between the rod and the wheel
19:20:10 <Bjarni> I knew that in both English and Danish even before you showed me that dictionary
19:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is "common language"?
19:20:22 <mikl> Bjarni: so that’s linealer? That makes sense :)
19:20:52 <Bjarni> I just find it a funny translation as it's a very limited group who would understand the Danish translation
19:21:13 <Bjarni> and odds are that those who understands it already know how to say it in English
19:21:23 <mikl> I've actually seen a few old steamers, but I have no idea what all the widgets are called
19:21:31 <Bjarni> <mikl> Bjarni: so that’s linealer? That makes sense :) <-- no... it's "krydshoved"
19:21:43 <Bjarni> linealer are something else on the rods
19:22:47 <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause> and that is "common language"? <-- something that regular people (like people in here) would understand
19:24:04 <mikl> ah, well. Even if I don't know a lot about old trains, I still think that reading Star Wars books, programming PHP for a living and playing OTTD puts me in the upper 90% of geeks :)
19:27:36 <Bjarni> that's not good enough :P
19:29:25 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14054 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix (rthebeginning): long strings in the edit box would cause OpenTTD to stop drawing the string. This is especially noticable with low resolutions and the chat input box.
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19:36:29 <ln> Bjarni: Apple has been insulted on this channel today.
19:36:42 <TrueBrain> ln: only today? I should come around more often ..
19:37:00 <Bjarni> what bozo talked garbage?
19:38:54 <ln> Bjarni: 17:10 <@R**idium> Apple just plainly sucks
19:38:57 * Belugas is listening to Iron Maiden - 22 Acacia Avenue
19:39:19 <TrueBrain> ln: well, he is right .. if it rotates hard enough, it would suck you in
19:39:43 <TrueBrain> @kick mikl don't burn my friends, that aint nice.
19:39:43 *** mikl was kicked by DorpsGek (don't burn my friends, that aint nice.)
19:40:21 <ln> how much is fullrate in .dk?
19:41:04 <mikl> ln: i have 20 Mbit for 299,-
19:41:22 <ln> what's full about 20 Mbit?
19:41:31 <mikl> only 1 Mbit upstream though
19:42:07 <TrueBrain> I have 100/100 for 9 euro 10
19:42:28 <mikl> problem is that we only have POTS
19:42:34 <ln> well, i don't quite get 24, but like 16.
19:42:58 <mikl> no fiber between me and the ISP central
19:43:10 <mikl> so 20 is about as good as it gets
19:43:40 <peter1138> urgh, this overlay code is horrible :(
19:47:26 <Belugas> and i would think this is just a tiny part of it...
19:48:26 <frosch123> peter1138: Why do you need to change the y offsets for slopes tracks?
19:48:57 <frosch123> i.e. why arn't they in the grf
19:49:15 <frosch123> errr, just ignore me :)
19:51:07 *** De_Ghost has joined #openttd
19:54:10 <Bjarni> <frosch123> errr, just ignore me :) <-- we always do that
19:54:43 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: you might confuse him with yourself .. dunno
19:55:12 <frosch123> TrueBrain: who are you talking to ?
19:55:34 <Bjarni> this reminds me of the sword fighting in Monkey Island
19:56:01 <Bjarni> you insult somebody and then they have to make a quick reply that makes the insult backfire
19:56:14 <Bjarni> it's quite fun actually
19:56:50 <TrueBrain> you always lost, I presume?
19:57:33 <TrueBrain> ah, a computer oponent
19:57:50 <Bjarni> well I did when the game came out due to lack of English skills >_<
19:59:50 <Rubidium> dih: locally (over network) it works fine
20:00:23 <Rubidium> you just need to add spaces to your words otherwise it will not add newlines and thus show only the first line
20:11:27 <Eddi|zuHause> <Bjarni> well I did when the game came out due to lack of English skills >_< <- strange, i did not have that problem :p
20:11:31 <dih> Rubidium, it has bunches of spaces, i was sending "12345678 "
20:12:09 <dih> say "123456789 123456789 123456789 123456789 ....
20:12:39 <Bjarni> I was better at English than German
20:12:56 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o TrueBrain
20:13:04 <Rubidium> dih: the console just reads a mere 200 bytes
20:13:29 * Bjarni wonders what TrueBrain is up to now
20:13:51 <Bjarni> <dih> Bjarni, me too <-- aren't you German?
20:14:14 <dih> Rubidum: could that possibly be changed?
20:14:26 <dih> nice one TrueBrain kill the entire topic for that message
20:17:51 <Bjarni> you profit from those? :)
20:18:26 <rortom> no, i have only good experience with them
20:19:00 <rortom> also, traffic wise www.ovh.de is good to push out data, as it is unmetered
20:21:05 <rortom> you refund the whole server costs?
20:21:45 <rortom> we would have to refund ~900 euros :|
20:22:33 <Wolf01> wait, i have 10€ to give you
20:23:37 <TrueBrain> [22:23] <-- KillaloT has left this server (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- 100,000+ downloads can't be wrong). <- tell that to Microsoft!
20:24:23 <rortom> also, 10 euros from me for ottd
20:25:56 <TrueBrain> You are all too kind :)
20:26:25 <Brianetta> TrueBrain: If there's ever a legal case lodged against OpenTTD... we'll vanish like cockroaches (:
20:27:07 <TrueBrain> Brianetta: most of us will :p
20:27:08 <planetmaker> I'd like to donate, but I need a bank account :)
20:27:22 <Brianetta> planetmaker: Not necessarily
20:27:40 <planetmaker> I don't have paypal nor moneybookers
20:27:46 <dih> Rubidium: ignore my last message ;-)
20:27:50 <Brianetta> Get bank details from Owen, and make a cash deposit at a branch of that bank near you
20:28:33 <planetmaker> money transfer should be fine... it's inside EU and charges must not be higher than domestic anymore :)
20:28:45 <orudge> I can provide you with my details if required
20:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause> charges for domestic bank transfer are 0 ;)
20:31:59 *** dragonhorseboy has joined #openttd
20:32:04 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14055 /trunk/src/ (console_internal.h video/dedicated_v.cpp): -Codechange: increase buffers for (dedicated) consoles as they couldn't use the full "extent" of the new chat message limit.
20:32:34 <rortom> orudge: you thought about adding ads to the site to refund?
20:32:35 <dragonhorseboy> any of you in here from north america know about covered wagons?
20:32:50 <orudge> rortom: there are adverts
20:32:52 <orudge> they make a bit of money
20:32:55 <orudge> but not enough to cover all the costs
20:33:10 <TrueBrain> 'refund' weird word
20:33:58 <dih> Rubidium, oh wow - thanks a bunch... you're a star :-)
20:34:44 <TrueBrain> million of years old?
20:34:44 <dragonhorseboy> one question I had was .. was it more popular to have a single long block or two smaller one or that depended on the railroads themself?
20:35:23 <Rubidium> oh, then I can counter burn mikl quite well :)
20:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: i have no idea what you are talking about
20:37:44 <peter1138> Bah, lining up dowels is a bitch...
20:38:10 <mikl> what's a few jiggo-watts of sunlight between friends?
20:38:49 <peter1138> TrueBrain: 'refund' is not the right word.
20:39:00 <TrueBrain> still no idea what it means :p
20:39:01 <peter1138> A simple 'cover costs' is better though.
20:39:28 <peter1138> A refund is what happens when you take something back to a shop and they give you your money back.
20:39:38 <Wolf01> ok, you are more rich of 10€
20:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's what i would have understood as a "refund"
20:39:58 <TrueBrain> peter1138: yeah, that was what I was thinking .. :p
20:40:46 <dragonhorseboy> hm sorry eddi not sure why I don't seem to be typing straight...
20:41:01 <dragonhorseboy> I meant did they have one long motor block or used two smaller ones (eg V16 verus 2xV8) in most covered wagons in north america?
20:41:19 <peter1138> Most of the time we don't understand you, dragonhorseboy...
20:42:21 <peter1138> Hmm, I need a 620mm x 620mm blind for a window.
20:42:28 <peter1138> But it's circular :o
20:43:32 <dragonhorseboy> peter..do you need it to cover the whole window in one single blind?
20:44:14 <peter1138> No, but it is quite small.
20:44:43 *** Osai is now known as Osai^zZz
20:45:14 <dragonhorseboy> hmm well the only idea I could think of now is that I know there's certain blinds that can cover half an arch without any issue (and most don't need any outter rails to guide them at all)
20:45:37 <dragonhorseboy> but a full circle I have no idea about
20:48:14 <Bjarni> <peter1138> But it's circular :o <-- hehe... check who made the window and visit their homepage
20:49:29 <TrueBrain> when God was giving out brains, was Bjarni taking a piss or something?
20:49:41 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14056 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Fix [FS#2192]: the console backlog is too small for list_patches. Now it'll only remove backlog items when there are more than a threshold and when they are there longer than (another) threshold.
20:49:45 <Belugas> peter1138, i'll just hang a regular squared blind. it would look normal up until you open it up, and than, since the blind is opened, you do not see it's not the same shape as the window ^_^
20:49:54 <Bjarni> maybe I read blinds as something else
20:50:03 <TrueBrain> peter1138: I agree with Belugas :)
20:50:29 <Bjarni> forget I said anything
20:50:38 <Bjarni> I thought it was something else >_<
20:50:57 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: we try to (forgot you said anything)
20:51:28 <Bjarni> peter1138: why would you want a blind for a circular window?
20:51:46 <peter1138> It was built a few years ago...
20:52:36 <Bjarni> I can get curtains, blinds and whatever for my window that was built like 15-20 years ago
20:52:37 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: because he has a rectangle window, but he thought it would be fun to find a circular blind for it ... (omg, really, did he REALLY asked that question?)
20:52:51 <Bjarni> the factory still supports that size with all their new gadgets
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20:53:34 * Bjarni quits listening to TrueBrain
20:53:48 <Bjarni> yeah the window factory
20:53:56 * peter1138 ponders the 'factory' that put the bricks together...
20:54:04 <TrueBrain> peter1138: or maybe the glass company?
20:54:10 <TrueBrain> or maybe the woden frame?
20:54:20 <Bjarni> I meant the guys who made the wooden frame
20:55:08 <peter1138> I will stick with a rectangular blind :p
20:55:46 <TrueBrain> peter1138: generous, correctly spelled? (as in: very kind)
20:57:40 <Bjarni> I'm not entirely sure if you can use this though... didn't read that page in details
21:02:12 <Wolf01> now we have aqueducts, we might add only the elevator part and then build the lifter how high we want, maybe with 5-6 height level limit
21:02:50 <dragonhorseboy> wolf01 only one question: why not just use the locks thats already there?
21:03:07 <Wolf01> so we don't need to terraform a cliff to build multiple locks
21:04:16 <dragonhorseboy> wolf01 I've rarely terraform much at all for to get 3 tiles higher ... unless you're refering to arctic mountains?
21:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i prefer smooth terrain since i want to place >6x8 stations
21:10:07 <dragonhorseboy> heh eddi I usually go for low sea .. hilly terrain .. medium town&industries .. slow-growing towns ^_^
21:10:29 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: just 6x8? :p
21:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'm not the coop guys ;)
21:11:01 <TrueBrain> you are not plural, that's for sure :)
21:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you really sure?
21:11:10 <dragonhorseboy> eddi .. most of my stations are just single or two 3-7tiles platform ones ;)
21:11:18 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: not really :) I never was ..
21:12:00 <dragonhorseboy> except for certain final goods(/etc) trains at times tho .. usually 10-20 tiles long platforms on these then
21:13:18 <dragonhorseboy> if you have to ask why .. its because several short input trains at times and the fact that the goods-accepting city can be a bit further away at times = long drags on decidated lines :p
21:14:04 <Bjarni> I had to check if it were from the first of April
21:14:57 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: well, I Asked this question about 20 times in the last 2 days:
21:15:01 * dragonhorseboy never ever liked silly "town feeder" systems
21:15:01 <dragonhorseboy> to our own ^-^
21:15:01 <TrueBrain> proof to me that the earth isn't flat
21:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: it's a paxdest game
21:16:27 <Bjarni> TrueBrain: now imagine night and day. When it's night it's dark and when it's day the sun is delivering light, right?
21:16:35 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: but "old" undevish paxdest ;-)
21:17:12 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
21:17:17 <Ammler> (undevish should be quoted)
21:17:19 <Bjarni> so since it's day at one place and night at another place at the same time then the sun shines on only a part of earth at once
21:17:40 <dragonhorseboy> whats a paxdest?
21:18:01 <Ammler> Passegners with Destination
21:18:18 * SpComb eats all of Eddi|zuHause's trees
21:18:22 <Bjarni> now take a lightbulb and a CD. Place the CD so that the lightbulb lights up only parts of the CD at once
21:18:44 <Bjarni> try to see if you can do the same with the surface of a ball
21:18:46 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: you talk too slow
21:18:49 <TrueBrain> and your explanation is week
21:18:50 <dragonhorseboy> and eddi that second screenshot so could use PBS all the way .. or a better junction :p
21:18:54 <TrueBrain> not to say wrong :)
21:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... indeed... "no tree growth" is a little too little tree growth
21:19:10 <TrueBrain> that you can show other objects to something, doens't proof the sun has to do the same with the earth
21:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: that has PBS...
21:19:13 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: does the paxdest patch support loading old savegames?
21:19:29 <TrueBrain> example: you can't tell if you are in an accelerating car or that you are on a 45 degrees slope (when your eyes are closed)
21:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: which one?
21:19:35 <Bjarni> [23:18:46] <TrueBrain> Bjarni: you talk too slow
21:19:35 <Bjarni> [23:18:49] <TrueBrain> and your explanation is week
21:19:35 <Bjarni> it didn't take me THAT long :/
21:19:41 <TrueBrain> but, to quote their website:
21:19:44 <TrueBrain> Q: "What about the stars, sun and moon and other planets? Are they flat too? What are they made of?"
21:19:44 <TrueBrain> A: The sun and moon, each 32 miles in diameter, circle Earth at a height of 3000 miles at its equator, located midway between the North Pole and the ice wall. Each functions similar to a "spotlight," with the sun radiating "hot light," the moon "cold light." As they are spotlights, they only give light out over a certain are which explains why some parts of the Earth are dark when others are light. Their apparent rising and setting are caused by
21:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: the one by celestar and peter1138: yes, but you need to manually enable them
21:20:04 <TrueBrain> so, that 'proof' failed
21:21:09 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: "enable them"?
21:21:38 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: there are config settings for passengers, mail, valuables and other cargo
21:21:39 <SpComb> (I did mean the celepeterstar1138 one)
21:21:41 <TrueBrain> but I am serious, give me some proof! People might mock those guys for their believes, but proof them wrong!
21:22:05 <TrueBrain> (for the record, most of them very much know that the earth isn't flat, but they challange you to proof them wrong .. which isn't as simple as you might expect)
21:22:06 <Bjarni> this is at the same level as "evolution didn't happen because it conflicts with the bible"
21:22:51 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: not really, as you can most likely proof 'evolution'
21:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it's physics, there are no proofs... only theories that might explain one or more visible phenomenons
21:22:58 <TrueBrain> and you can avoid it, but clearly you can't give any proof
21:23:06 <TrueBrain> therefor, you really shouldn't dismiss their tehories
21:23:23 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: hehe, okay, agree'd. Then give me a plausable exaplanation
21:23:28 <Bjarni> I have seen ISS with my own eyes and I saw it again 93 minutes later when it had circled the globe
21:23:28 <TrueBrain> (bah, my english sucks today :p)
21:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "plausible" is not an acceptable proof for anyone who really is set out to ignore proofs...
21:24:01 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: did you? I mean ... really, I can give numerous of reasons why that would happen
21:24:09 <TrueBrain> none of them including a sphere
21:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> which is why i find this discussion useless...
21:24:33 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: haha, so you too don't have anything to show why the earth is round :)
21:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause> indeed i haven't...
21:24:52 <TrueBrain> that is what makes me sad .. people only mock those 'flat earth-people', but we stopped thinking
21:24:56 <TrueBrain> we just blindly believe what is given
21:25:10 <TrueBrain> how hard is it to really show something, so you have something in your hand, which says: the earth is round
21:25:12 <Bjarni> the really crazy thing here is that TrueBrain studied astronomy meaning he should know this
21:25:21 <TrueBrain> I can tell you, to proof the earth is round, is much easier
21:25:33 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: we learn to be open minded :)
21:25:37 <Sacro> just look out the window
21:25:43 <TrueBrain> if we would believe every theory out there
21:25:44 <dragonhorseboy> well eddi..just so you know anyhow I'm usually more into many individual line branches even for express services ^-^
21:25:45 <Sacro> you go for about 8 miles
21:25:47 <TrueBrain> progress would be VERY slow
21:26:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no... the earth is round from the inside... when your shoes wear off, they do that on the front and the back, never in the middle
21:26:11 <Bjarni> Sacro: I don't believe you... prove it
21:27:08 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: some very simple ways to proof the earth is round .. first off: gravity. Their explanation is that we increase our speed with 9.8 m/s^2 .. which means we would increase in speed with 301,000 km/s a year (does that number mean anything to you?) .. not to say it is insane, also simply impossible :p
21:27:16 <TrueBrain> second: moon-eclipse / sun-eclipse
21:27:28 <TrueBrain> only model we ever found to proof that, is circular orbits, which include a round earth
21:27:34 <dragonhorseboy> here's a good question for you damned people: if the earth is flat then why do none of the calfornia-paris airplanes (or whatever) actually fly close to or across the arctic? :p
21:27:37 <TrueBrain> (give a counter-model, and that fails)
21:27:58 <TrueBrain> third, mountains coming 'out' of the sea, only possible with round objects
21:28:13 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: err... the lack of a counter-proof is not a proof...
21:28:23 <TrueBrain> 3 simple common sense everyone understandable reasons why the earth is round
21:28:32 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: well, as I Said: plausable explainations
21:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't understand your mountain reasoning...
21:28:43 <TrueBrain> I fail to translate the dutch word, so I nicked it 'proof' :)
21:28:48 <TrueBrain> ever been on the sea?
21:28:49 <Bjarni> theflatearthsociety.org links to this page
21:28:57 <TrueBrain> go towards a mountain
21:29:03 <TrueBrain> you see it 'raise' from the sea
21:29:12 <TrueBrain> very much impossible with any flat object
21:29:37 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm a "land rat" :p
21:29:58 <TrueBrain> my point here was: don't mock people you can't proof wrong
21:30:11 <TrueBrain> people did that too often in history, and too often they turned out to be not so crazy after all
21:30:44 <dragonhorseboy> like as in E=MC2?
21:30:44 <TrueBrain> but granted, the earth really is not flat :p
21:31:03 <TrueBrain> more like the cosmologic constant, if you want to talk Einstein
21:31:21 <TrueBrain> E=MC^2 isn't mocked that often
21:31:38 <Bjarni> TrueBrain: 301,000 km/s <-- this is a little faster than the speed of light, but I can see people rejecting this. Just look at politics. During last election one politicians refused to talk numbers because whenever somebody said anything about numbers (like costs of really expensive promises) they just said some random numbers that nobody understood anyway. The scary part is that this politician got elected
21:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> <dragonhorseboy> and eddi that second screenshot so could use PBS all the way .. or a better junction :p <- the problem of the junction is not the lack of PBS, but that all trains want to use the same exit... i triple-tracked that part of the network then (the route to the top left), so i had two unidirectional and one bidirectional track
21:32:23 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: the speed thing can be rejected pretty simple .. but if you consider that this is per year
21:32:28 <Bjarni> E=MC^2 -> E = Einstein, MC = Motor cycle. We now know that Einstein had two motorcycles
21:32:31 <TrueBrain> and we know the earth is around for at least 3000 years
21:32:39 <TrueBrain> its speed would be .. well .. insane ;)
21:33:03 <Bjarni> we can agree that earth is at least 20 years, which is enough
21:33:26 <TrueBrain> related question: when do you think people stopped believeing the earth was flat? (the general population)
21:34:14 <TrueBrain> general relativity fails with flat earth, so speed of light fails too .. so any speed is possible, with a flat earth :p Haha :)
21:34:46 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: not much sooner than they read jules verne
21:34:48 <dragonhorseboy> eddi heh ok :)
21:35:09 <Bjarni> the earth is max 3000 years.... Lord Kelvin proofed that by presuming the sun is made out of coal and calculating how much had burned so far and he came up with a max age of the sun to be 3000 years and clearly the earth could not be older than the sun
21:35:19 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: lol :p
21:35:32 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that guy really wrote too much :p
21:35:49 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: beautiful calculation, if you ask me
21:35:58 <TrueBrain> very solid, inf act
21:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> well, he did have some cool ideas ;)
21:36:11 <TrueBrain> (well, besides we now know there aren't any coals out there :p)
21:36:45 <Bjarni> Lord Kelvin made that proof because everybody agreed that the theory of evolution would need more than 3000 years and he wanted to proof it wrong as it collided with how he (and most other people) understood the bible
21:37:26 <TrueBrain> simplicity at his best :)
21:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> when did jules verne write his books? mid 19th century?
21:38:12 <TrueBrain> (something can be complete bullshit, and still be elegant :) Take that image of the flat earth .. you have to give those guys a bit of credit for that :))
21:38:19 <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: something like that
21:38:27 <Bjarni> 1860-1880 or something
21:38:28 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: 1800-1900
21:39:00 <TrueBrain> 1910 last, but that was published after his dead
21:39:14 <TrueBrain> even a publication in 1920
21:39:37 <Bjarni> I presume he finished writing it in 1905 even though it took longer to publish it
21:39:53 <TrueBrain> well, it can be part of found drafts
21:39:54 <Bjarni> but for all we know he didn't finish it and somebody finished it for him to make money
21:40:16 *** alphabeat has joined #openttd
21:40:19 <TrueBrain> I still love H.G. Wells .. he wrote The Timemachine :)
21:40:34 <Fuco> when i realise he wrote about moon travels 150 years ago, its kinda cool
21:40:46 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: he was an optimist...
21:40:48 <alphabeat> hey.. i have a stupid question ...
21:40:58 <Wolf01> I should purchase some books of H.G. Wells
21:41:10 <alphabeat> how do i build planes in Transport Tycoon?
21:41:27 <Bjarni> Wolf01: nice pink graphics... but would you like to code support for this?
21:41:30 <Fuco> alphabeat, click on hangar on airport
21:41:31 <Bjarni> alphabeat: in airports
21:41:31 <TrueBrain> did you know that Alice in Wonderland in fact is a book about 'parallel universe'?
21:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: absolutely not worth the effort
21:42:07 <TrueBrain> Carroll was a scienest, and he wondered how a parallel universe would be .. and he wrote a book out of it
21:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause> alphabeat: the airport has a hangar
21:42:19 <alphabeat> oh.. ups :p spend an hour trying to figure it out. thanks :)
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21:42:57 <Eddi|zuHause> aqueducts totally need more depth perception...
21:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean they are the flattest bridges of all, and have the smallest pillars
21:43:55 <Fuco> you think he came up with parallel universes in 1870?
21:44:04 <TrueBrain> Fuco: I am pretty sure he did :)
21:44:14 <Bjarni> he learned the hard way when he visited one
21:44:19 <TrueBrain> it is widely known he talked about it a lot
21:44:36 <Fuco> i think the idea is not such old
21:44:49 <TrueBrain> most of such ideas are much older than you expect :)
21:45:09 <TrueBrain> well, I can't 100% proof it to you,a s we can't visit him :p
21:45:20 <Fuco> back they they just didn't have means to proof it
21:45:40 <TrueBrain> Fuco: in the old days, people visualised more by thinking
21:45:42 <TrueBrain> rather then making models
21:45:45 <Bjarni> how would you use a computer to proof a parallel universe?
21:45:49 <TrueBrain> it got us pretty far :)
21:45:58 <TrueBrain> I somehow like it .. just thinking about it :)
21:46:01 <Fuco> but its a lot easier now
21:46:13 <TrueBrain> take Einstein. He just wondered what would happen if you would be sitting on a foton
21:46:23 <TrueBrain> an insane idea :) But .. just a mind experiment
21:46:27 <Bjarni> the idea of a computer and programming came 150 years ago
21:46:46 <Fuco> thats what im talking about.. but the first machine was build 50 yrs ago
21:47:20 <Fuco> i saw some schematics for some "mechanical" computer
21:47:21 <Bjarni> also the mechanical computer... it was built in a small model with limited power and blueprints were made for a real one
21:47:38 <Bjarni> then they failed to build it because instead of building it the inventor tried to alter it
21:47:51 <Bjarni> now somebody built one out of the blueprints and it works
21:48:11 <Fuco> Guy called babbage or something
21:48:24 <TrueBrain> don't you just love history? :)
21:48:56 <Bjarni> TrueBrain: I really hope that was a rhetorical question
21:49:04 <Bjarni> at least if it was aimed at me ;)
21:49:14 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: no, I want an answer!!
21:50:06 <Fuco> i didn't like it back on highschool
21:50:12 <TrueBrain> I tried to read some basics of M-string .. omg .. really :p
21:50:13 <Fuco> lots of pointless learning
21:50:48 <TrueBrain> Fuco: I should rephrase: don't you just love history you care about? :p
21:51:28 <Bjarni> I didn't always like history in school. Sometimes it was as pointless as geography
21:51:29 <Fuco> M-string is really crazy stuff
21:51:42 <Bjarni> like I need to know the names of the oasis in Sahara :s
21:51:52 <Fuco> i saw some BBC documentaries
21:52:23 <TrueBrain> 11 dimensions to explain everything ... somehow it requires respect, just reading that
21:52:31 <Fuco> hm..we used to learn about soil fertility
21:52:36 <TrueBrain> lucky enough they proofed it never will be 12 :p
21:52:37 <Fuco> unless you're not farmer
21:52:59 <Bjarni> actually soil fertility is important
21:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the problem with 11 dimensions? you just assume indefinite dimensions and have 11 as a simple special case
21:53:15 <Bjarni> unless you don't have a garden
21:53:32 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: as I just said, lucky they proofed it never will be 12 (or 13, or any other higher value than 11 :p)
21:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i have actually no idea how they got to the number of 11, or what they wanted to explain with that...
21:54:35 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: unification of Einstein and Schodiger
21:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause> missing a couple of letters ;)
21:54:52 <TrueBrain> (nasty way of saying: quantum mechanics and general relativity)
21:54:56 <TrueBrain> as I said, my english fails today :p
21:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> both people were actually german ;)
21:55:15 <TrueBrain> sadly enough, yes ..
21:55:16 <Fuco> eddi, if equations dont work for 3 or 4, just add a couple until its fine :P
21:55:53 <Bjarni> so basically it's about finding the theory of everything?
21:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Fuco: you don't have to tell me... i don't have a problem with 1500 dimensions...
21:56:06 <Fuco> it's believed that m-theory should be that
21:56:29 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: M-theory is one of the suggestions for the theory of everything yes
21:56:31 <TrueBrain> string-theory is the other one
21:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you know, einstein got the nobel prize, but not for his theory of relativity, because the nobel comittee did not understand it.
21:57:00 <Bjarni> so if everything can be explained by 11 dimensions then why do we live in a 3 dimensional world?
21:57:01 <TrueBrain> hehe, the one has one more dimension :p
21:57:09 <TrueBrain> explaining one thing more :p
21:57:13 <TrueBrain> but yeah, you are right Fuco :)
21:57:16 <Fuco> that other are so small you cant "feel" them
21:57:31 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: and why wouldn't we? :p
21:57:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: just because you have a 3-dimensional perception does not mean the world is 3-dimensional
21:57:53 <TrueBrain> but yeah, the 'big bang' supposedly crashed them into VERY VERY small units :)
21:57:59 <Bjarni> so Q lives in a 11D world?
21:58:13 <TrueBrain> Q lives in StarTrek
21:58:20 <Fuco> and btw, its Schrodenger not Schodiger (if you mean the guy with "cat experiment")
21:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> in fact, adding a 4th dimension is really easy
21:58:40 <TrueBrain> Fuco: Eddi|zuHause already said I missed a few letters :) I fail to translate today :)
21:58:50 <Fuco> yea i cant write that ``o
21:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't write an i either ;)
21:59:00 <Fuco> don't have german keyboard
21:59:26 <TrueBrain> austrian? I don't know the english word, but the country next to swiss you mean, I hope
21:59:32 <Bjarni> I don't have a German keyboard either
22:00:04 <TrueBrain> capital of that country
22:00:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "greater germany" ;)
22:00:11 <TrueBrain> which I still don't know the english word for :p
22:00:36 <Bjarni> Austria-Hungarian empire?
22:00:37 <TrueBrain> Fuco: so German enough for me :p
22:01:21 <TrueBrain> (I hate the German language .. I can't help it .. nothing personal :))
22:01:44 <TrueBrain> was forced to learn it for 3 years
22:01:46 <Fuco> but can understand simple text
22:01:50 <TrueBrain> Didn't like it then, don't like it now :p
22:01:51 <Eddi|zuHause> austria belonged to germany until austria and prussia had difficulties dividing newly conquered danish territory between them ;)
22:02:06 <Bjarni> now I should say something about Dutch sounding like a German trying to speak Danish while he has an infection in his throat :P
22:02:21 <TrueBrain> weird english words :
22:02:28 <TrueBrain> "Oostenrijk" <- see, that is readable :p
22:02:46 <TrueBrain> Bjarni: don't worry, the dutch language sucks too
22:02:53 <TrueBrain> but at least we learn 4 languages at school :)
22:03:09 <Fuco> dutch is netherland right?
22:03:39 <TrueBrain> how ever you want it :p
22:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be "Austrian Netherlands"
22:03:42 <Bjarni> I found a stamp that said Österreich and "20 Kronor"... quite interesting
22:03:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is more what is now belgium
22:03:51 <Fuco> my cousin moved there, heh
22:04:15 <Bjarni> a little research revealed that it was a worthless one from the WW1 era
22:04:21 <TrueBrain> I always wondered, if a country calls itself, say, "France", how come that we call it "Frankrijk"? For example?
22:04:27 *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
22:04:30 <TrueBrain> how does naming a country in a native language work ...
22:05:20 <Fuco> ie, in english austria is austria, and in my language is "rakusko".. those two are totally different
22:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the ways are different...
22:05:30 <Bjarni> "Frankrijk" is the "reich" of the "frank"
22:05:41 <Bjarni> if you get what I mean
22:05:46 <Bjarni> it's as simple as that
22:05:47 <Eddi|zuHause> like the name "Deutsch" evolved around the 12th century
22:06:09 <TrueBrain> how did it ever become "German" ..
22:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the roman's fault
22:06:35 <TrueBrain> blame it on them :p
22:06:39 <Bjarni> because Germany is a fucked up name when it comes to what it's called elsewhere :P
22:06:50 <Bjarni> In Danish it's called "Tyskland"
22:07:07 <TrueBrain> well, anyway, it was nice talking to you guys :) Lovely off-topic, I am suprised we didn't get banned :p Either way, going to bed :) Have a good night!
22:07:41 <Bjarni> Tatitus writes about an island in the north of Germania called Scandia (which evolved into the name Scandinavia)
22:07:42 <TrueBrain> And Fuco, nice talking to you too :) (as in, it is not the first time I talk to Bjarni and Eddi|zuHause about random offtopic stuff :p)
22:07:56 <Bjarni> this tells us that the name "Skåne" is at least 2000 years old
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22:08:11 <Fuco> practicing my english :D
22:08:47 <Bjarni> you are doing better at English than I am at Slovakian so let's stick to English
22:08:56 <dragonhorseboy> how hard could it be to modify an existing coach into having cab controls at one end? ^-^
22:09:43 <Bjarni> in real life it would be somewhat easy to do and difficult to get approved
22:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, before the 12th century, the german called themselves "Franken" (as they had common roots with the french, only they adopted the roman languages of the territory they invaded)
22:10:12 <ln> why are the Star Trek consoles and walls filled with explosives?
22:10:28 <Bjarni> I wondered about the same thing
22:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: to make better special effects
22:10:53 <dragonhorseboy> bjarni hmm well rebuild existing older coach verus funding a new coach with cab control from start ... I guess thats a good related question hm? ^-^
22:10:54 <Bjarni> specially on Vulcan ships
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22:11:59 <ln> like the #1 rule for staying alive in a battle: stay far away from the walls and consoles.
22:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: especially in the early days of push-pull service, that was not an uncommon approach
22:12:29 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14057 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix: NewGRF text stack's "push word" didn't move the data around properly (minime)
22:12:36 <Bjarni> ln: also why is the bridge on the top and not in the middle where it's better protected?
22:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but nowadays, building a new one is probably cheaper than modifying an old one (and getting it safe enough)
22:12:59 <dragonhorseboy> eddi or these few odd consists where the locomotive is actually in the middle of the train oddly enough
22:13:23 <dragonhorseboy> a related one is the ET87 which is a bit more or less two coaches with a small passenger electric cab sandwiched in middle
22:13:49 <Bjarni> I have a picture of a train consisting of 3 units.... two steering cars and a diesel locomotive in the middle... this was quite common (on the now closed line)
22:14:12 <Bjarni> the drivers didn't like to drive the locomotive as they more or less was in the same room as the diesel engine
22:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a cool reason ;)
22:15:04 <Bjarni> not to mention a whole lot of vibrations
22:15:09 <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14058 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#2224]: NewGRF callback 23 didn't use the NewGRF compatible text stack (minime)
22:15:27 <Bjarni> hot, noisy and vibrating.... don't get the wrong idea :P
22:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: i know that they did put cabs in existing wagons for the Halle-Leipzig route after the war (around 1950s, where the reelectrification began)
22:17:12 <dragonhorseboy> eddi heh well dunno what someone might think but one of the weird north america kind idea I had was like this...
22:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> a little later the new doubledecker consists were ready, which had a cab from the beginning
22:18:28 <dragonhorseboy> cab-converted coach + coach + repowered F7B (with motor located offset for wider walkway on other side) + coach + cab-converted coach .... would be an odd sight if there was a real one
22:18:49 <Bjarni> while searching for such a picture online I found.... a picture of myself
22:20:49 <dragonhorseboy> eddi which of I've got the article (from 'contentional model railway' issue, the sister of the british version) on early post-war attempt at doubledecker cars on the DB railroad ... seem no more were made after the initial ones especially due to the headspaces present
22:21:12 <dragonhorseboy> probably finally rectified that issue with the newer doubledeck cars for diesel&electric consists years later
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22:22:29 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the LBE pre-war doubledecker wagons were the only WEST german double deckers, because the wagon factory was in Görlitz, so it belonged to east germany after the war
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22:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> they continued the development of the double decker wagons, and now sell them into the whole world
22:23:21 <Fuco> it seems like you know what you're talking about :P
22:23:33 <Fuco> coz i dont understanad a single sentence
22:24:20 <dragonhorseboy> heh well the article said that very few models were ever released of these ... especially with Overlands making (brass as typical usual) a blue model
22:24:50 <Bjarni> I think the issue is that Eddi|zuHause talks about something we talked about hours ago
22:25:12 <Bjarni> and I talked with dragonhorseboy about something else and I think we got a bit out of sync
22:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i've read on this issue multiple times already
22:25:21 <Bjarni> meaning we are 3 people not talking about the same thing :P
22:25:42 *** glx|away is now known as glx
22:25:43 <dragonhorseboy> bjarni re that steering cars --- I only can say one thing: that is one weird locomotive!
22:26:37 <Bjarni> they had some old not so good locomotives
22:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it does not look that unusual, except again for that asymmetric light, and the passenger wagon windows
22:27:18 <Bjarni> when they ran out of money and was given to the state railroad company (preventing a closure) I think they scrapped the locomotives more or less right away
22:27:52 <Bjarni> only 2 headlights were common in Denmark at that time
22:28:14 <Bjarni> the 3rd was introduced when Germany got the idea to use 3
22:28:16 <dragonhorseboy> bjarni well if there's one of several particular passenger locomotive body I think I like...its on the japan railroad...let me see where that photo was again...
22:30:06 <Bjarni> too bad it looks like there aren't any pictures of HFHJ M7 online. The railroad (named HFHJ) needed a small train for trains with few expected passengers so they added an engine in a passenger wagon and stuff to steer it in each end
22:30:12 <Bjarni> the result looked a bit funny
22:30:28 <Bjarni> worked ok but only when it didn't connect to anything
22:30:58 <Bjarni> but the staff didn't like it :P
22:33:49 <Bjarni> they have several versions of those
22:34:13 <Bjarni> and time after time they broke the world speed record on narrow gauge
22:34:39 <Bjarni> the top speed of the fastest is around 180 km/h and they drive on 1067 mm gauge
22:35:00 <Bjarni> I like this part best: it has level crossings inside Tokyo
22:35:07 <dragonhorseboy> well I still never can believe all of these damned commuter trains in japan .. especially when there's 20+ cars in each sets and they're not far apart schedules-wise either
22:35:08 <Bjarni> with speed limits around 100 km/h
22:39:08 <Bjarni> luckily he isn't fat ;)
22:39:14 <Rubidium> dragonhorseboy, advice: do not take that train at midnight on thursday evenings departing from Shinjuku
22:39:38 <dragonhorseboy> rubidium.... sardine I'm going to guess?
22:40:19 <Rubidium> problem was that I needed to go further than 99% of the passengers on that train
22:40:27 <Bjarni> but sardine in a Japanese train is... well. tight
22:40:32 <Rubidium> so it took quite some effort to actually stay in the train at that station
22:40:40 <Rubidium> getting in the train was easy
22:40:54 <dragonhorseboy> rubidium ... like as in "there's not even a centimeter to move at all except when the doors opens"?
22:40:58 <Rubidium> just take the route of the least effort
22:41:23 <dragonhorseboy> rubidium I was never and still am not really interested in china/japan for holiday places anyway so don't worry about it ^_^
22:41:38 <Rubidium> those trains accelerate quite violently and when it's not busy you can't keep standing without holding the handlebars
22:41:39 <dragonhorseboy> rubidium let me tell you something tho...
22:42:08 <Rubidium> but that thursday night I didn't need to hold them
22:42:24 <dragonhorseboy> don't bother asking for a car lift on some weekends unless you like to try sit as the fourth person in the rear seats :p
22:42:30 <Rubidium> Bjarni: somewhat like that yes
22:42:31 <Dred_furst> How would you get a server to generate a new random map every time?
22:43:00 <Rubidium> but it actually left 50% on the platform waiting instead of being able to take everyone
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22:43:10 <dragonhorseboy> actually..you know what... I did *once* have one recent ford taurus sedan with seven thinner people in it on an old side country road
22:43:26 <dragonhorseboy> 3 up front (aye..column shifter) and 4 in rear row
22:44:15 <Bjarni> so you drove 6 passengers?
22:44:59 <Bjarni> I once drove 400 passengers at once... beat that :P
22:45:14 <dragonhorseboy> bjarni..thats not a car
22:45:41 <Bjarni> it's something way better
22:45:58 <Bjarni> because it takes priority over cars
22:46:08 <Bjarni> and it's still considered a vehicle
22:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> we once were 8 people in a Renault Clio
22:46:58 <dragonhorseboy> can it be driven with a car license? :D
22:48:09 <Bjarni> <dragonhorseboy> can it be driven with a car license? :D <-- no because you actually have to proof that you can drive it to be allowed to drive
22:48:10 <dragonhorseboy> well the vehicle I'm looking at for myself finally only sits 2 in the cab alone :p
22:49:10 <dragonhorseboy> and I don't think the law quite even allows cargobed passengers anymore
22:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> afaik in germany you can take up to 8 people on the cargo plane of a truck, as long as it has benches
22:50:45 <Eddi|zuHause> above 8 passengers, you need a bus license
22:51:33 <dragonhorseboy> hm lucky germany :p
22:52:04 <Bjarni> I think it's the same in Denmark
22:52:04 <dragonhorseboy> in here as I recall any pickup bed riding passengers usually gets the police attention often
22:52:28 <Eddi|zuHause> funny thing about that, you can drive a bus without a bus license, as long as there are fewer than 8 passengers in the bus ;)
22:53:05 <dragonhorseboy> eddi well there had to be some way to differ the passenger verus cargo version of the same vehicle body so figured
22:53:10 <ln> i've been on a truck with 29 other people.
22:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> (the bus is usually big enough that you need a truck license to drive it, though)
22:53:26 <dragonhorseboy> thats why extended vans can be seen often for commerical purposes but very few for 12-passengers seating .. even although both are just the same van chassis
22:55:25 <dragonhorseboy> well eddi would you like to see what kind of vehicle I'm looking at? ;)
22:56:24 <Bjarni> is it a Tesla Roadster?
22:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> ln: i've been on a horse carriage with 10 people playing instruments ;)
22:57:14 <dragonhorseboy> bjarni nope ... too limited
22:57:45 <Bjarni> but then I don't care :P
23:03:25 <Bjarni> (and no, it's not a tram)
23:12:07 <Bjarni> I just have to post a link and the channel dies
23:12:43 <dragonhorseboy> I dunno what else to say in here thats all bjarni
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23:19:25 <Bjarni> with all your talk I get sleepy
23:21:02 *** welshdragon2 is now known as welshdragon
23:23:37 <orudge> hmm, a sudden burst of donations in the past 10 minutes
23:31:32 * Rubidium hopes it doesn't overwhelm orudge
23:36:35 <Yexo> orudge: how much did you get already?
23:45:12 <Belugas> mmmh... i've got some bugs on arctic with pikka's grfs
23:51:52 <orudge> we have about £100 so far, Yexo
23:52:21 <Yexo> nice, and that within only a few hours
23:53:02 <orudge> last year we got about £300 in 24 hours
23:53:04 <orudge> which wass trather good
23:53:25 <SquireJames> Small question, where is the extended date stored in GRFs that have pre-1920 vehicles (for OTTD naturally)
23:54:05 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
23:54:15 <orudge> not sure how that happened
23:54:19 <orudge> £300 in about 24 hours, twas good
23:56:53 <Yexo> indeed. I'm curious how long it'll take this time
continue to next day ⏵
