IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2008-07-02
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09:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> who is shouting that early in the morning?!?
09:19:27 <dih> i think i need to expand my ignore list!
09:20:44 <Yorick> dih: I think I need to delete that folder called "/usr/projecs/rcongui"
09:22:20 <Vikthor> dih: You are doing it wrong, if you want to wake the channel up, you have to go like: "Hi I finished programmable signals patch, anybody to test it?" Or at least " Hi I fixed bug #xyz, can somebody review my patch?" :p
09:23:29 <Yorick> Vikthor: dih likes shouting
09:23:31 <dih> i have my work to do and that will not be released for a while
09:23:43 <dih> Yorick: i dont care what you do with rcon gui
09:25:20 <Yorick> now I know more people than only you :)
09:25:21 <dih> pm and Ammler more likely will care ;-)
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09:26:29 <dih> you have to repeat me on everything i say?
09:28:27 <dih> well at least that is settled
09:29:05 <HaloMaster> well at least that is settled
09:31:39 <Vikthor> Waiting for a kick? :p
09:32:00 * dih ignores *!~yorick@*.adsl.wanadoo.nl & *!~osiris@*.ip.adam.com.au
09:32:38 <Yorick> we'll unignore me tomorrow
09:33:24 <Yorick> he can't stay angry at me more than 1 day :(
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09:34:08 <dih> what a bunch of annoying kidds
09:34:44 <Yorick> see you haven't even ignored me
09:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause3> dih: well you had to wake them up, it's entirely your fault :P
09:36:35 <dih> well - yeah - i can see that
09:36:53 <dih> (apprt of those on my ignore list :-P)
09:38:02 <dih> the tunnels thread has been amazingly quiet
09:38:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> i have never seen this ominous tunnel thread...
09:38:43 <dih> Draakon basically makes a fool of him self in every post he makes :-P
09:39:59 <dih> talking of lunch... it's nearly time to start thinking what to eat today....
09:41:33 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause3: not worth a usual TTDP/OTTD thread.
09:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause3> i remember having read the very beginning of this thread
09:42:42 <dih> get to some ot the Draakon posts
09:43:02 <dih> and you will hava the giggle fits :-P
09:43:09 <Noldo> What is that you are really talking about?
09:45:55 <Noldo> ok. I get the have to register the licence but is there something else
09:46:57 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Oh boy, this guy's the genius eh? :P
09:47:21 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Draakon - Brain = Not very much worth talking about?
09:47:41 <dih> he is claming that copyright does not exist in estonia
09:48:03 <dih> and therefore it is not of interest to him :-P
09:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's such a pain reading "there" which totally does not fit in the sentence and then trying to figure out whether they actually ment "their" or "they're"
09:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause3> especially for someone speaking english as a foreign language
09:49:44 <Eddi|zuHause3> and it's always native speakers who make such horrible mistakes
09:50:24 <Doorslammer|BRSet> We have a few other 'morons' in other forums at the moment too
09:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm dead serious
09:50:34 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Been an entertaining few weeks for me :D
09:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause3> and i'm not even talking about draakon
09:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause3> "That Guy" on the second page
09:51:57 <dih> never even bothered reading that post i think
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09:53:41 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's funny how maquinista hid the fact that rails on tunnels look totally weird by running a train over them :p
09:54:21 <Doorslammer|BRSet> I wouldnt have thought rails on tunnels was important in any way
09:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause3> it is for the ultra-minimalistic fitting of junctions
09:55:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> you can save 2 tiles on the signal distance before and after the tunnel
09:55:31 <dih> i could imagine it being useful
09:55:37 <dih> but then i dont really play
09:56:27 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Hmm, so only a real benefit for those fixated on making 'the holy grail of junctions'
09:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause3> but the use fades towards zero when you actually have flexible tunnels/bridges
09:58:22 <dih> i am not sure i ever saw a screeny of it in action...
10:00:35 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Hmmm, basetunnels...
10:00:43 <Doorslammer|BRSet> I dont think that works on OTTD anyway
10:13:58 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Wow, that was rather stupid eh?
10:16:20 <MorgyN> so when are underground networks being patched in? *flees*
10:17:54 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Ask Draakon, he is the master that knows everything :P
10:18:01 <Doorslammer|BRSet> So he told me anyway... :D
10:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause3> well... SmatZ made a prototype implementation, but then he got... distracted
10:25:59 <dih> he's not online yet... :-(
10:26:36 <DorpsGek> dih: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 16 hours, 39 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <SmatZ> mmm
10:29:03 <MorgyN> so we put the tracks here...station under the.... ooh, kittens!
10:29:48 <Eddi|zuHause3> Gekz: you should get that thing checked
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10:51:09 <Noldo> the enginepool controversy seems to have died
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10:56:09 <Ammler> Noldo: but the problem still exists...
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11:03:41 <Noldo> new feature, it would be quite supricing if there were no problems
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11:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not a problem, it's a misconception
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11:18:11 <dragonhorseboy> just curious about it but any of you have any thought on what could be the lowest system openttd could possible run on? (256x256 to 1024x256 maps .. no ecs anyhow)
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11:40:44 <dragonhorseboy> dih meh I'm wondering what ram amount to allocate ^-^
11:40:49 <dih> it's a pretty vague question... number of industries, towns, vehicles, ships, what pathfinder
11:41:33 <dragonhorseboy> how about assume 'normal' default industries&towns .. dbsetxl for about 60-70 trainsets .. and just a few oil ships?
11:41:45 <dragonhorseboy> or still hard to tell
11:42:24 <orudge> joachim: I'm also here now
11:42:36 <Yexo> orudge: I was helping joachim :)
11:42:41 <dih> i did not know there were that many trainsets
11:42:55 <dih> 60-70 trains is something different - if you mean that :-P
11:43:06 <dragonhorseboy> dih hehehe yeah :p
11:43:08 <dih> ships are evil, esp. if run with yapf
11:43:33 <dih> if it's a dedicated server, you can do more as you save a lot on the drawing
11:43:51 <dih> still - i would not go with ships if you are trying to save resources
11:43:55 <dragonhorseboy> evil? umm where did that came from?
11:44:05 <Yexo> dih: you're right, but that's more because it takes a lot of cpu, not memory
11:44:06 <dragonhorseboy> I've ran a lot of ships with no issue on low-memory ttdx ^-^
11:44:11 <Noldo> I wonder why nobody cares about ship pathfinging
11:44:22 <dragonhorseboy> (and only about 50-60mhz no less)
11:44:44 <dih> Yexo: 13:18 < dragonhorseboy> just curious about it but any of you have any thought on what could be the lowest system openttd could possible run on?
11:44:46 <Yexo> dragonhorseboy: as dih said, it's mainly a concern when using yapf
11:45:19 <Yexo> dih: <dragonhorseboy> dih meh I'm wondering what ram amount to allocate :p
11:45:35 <Noldo> Yexo: npf suffers with ships too
11:45:50 <dih> no - npf does not suffer... the cpu does :-D
11:46:29 <Noldo> I hope kudr did benchmarks against npf when he did yapf
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11:50:37 <dih> dragonhorseboy: rather explain what you are up to, and then ask the question again ;-)
11:51:11 <dragonhorseboy> dih..just wondering if openttd perhaps could run on my main system or I'll just stick to only reading some threads on forums at times for good
11:51:48 <Noldo> use 64*64 map and you might be fine
11:52:38 <dih> with no ships 128^2 or 256^2 should be fine too
11:54:35 <dih> and buoys every 2 tiles :-P
11:55:06 <dih> yapf + buoys is pretty good too - if you place them like every 10 - 15 tiles
11:56:04 <Noldo> it might be worth it to give warning when the distance between orders is to big
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11:56:27 <Noldo> with opf it gives an error, doesn't it?
11:57:05 <dragonhorseboy> and I usually use the buoys almost as far as they would go .. just call me saving a bit money and a possible eyesore sight (eg too many buoys visible from one place on shoreline)
11:57:41 <dih> which - if i recall your question - you dont have all that much spare of anyway
11:58:01 <dragonhorseboy> then will someone explain why openttd is more bugged than ttdx for the same thing? ;)
11:58:37 <dih> you just dont know what bugs exist in ttdx
11:58:48 <dih> + open has just a few more features
11:59:45 <dih> if you have more fingers than a usual human being, then it's a handfull :-P
12:01:58 <dih> does anybody feel like writing a plugin for znc? (znc.sf.net)
12:05:53 *** peter1138 changes topic to "0.6.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | http://bugs.openttd.org/ for all related bugs/patches | No idiots |"
12:06:10 <peter1138> dragonhorseboy: BUGGED does not mean BUGGY
12:07:58 * Forked stares at that last part of the topic
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12:13:39 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "0.6.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (DevBlog: blog, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, NightlyArchive: archive, WIKI: wiki, SVN mailinglist: maillist, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs) | #openttd.notice for FS + SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English Only | http://bugs.openttd.org/ for all related bugs/patches | No idiots |"
12:14:44 <MorgyN> oh bugger, didn't see the last part. *parts*
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12:20:48 <peter1138> that's not in the topic :)
12:21:19 <dih> ln-: Osai has been doing that for months... if you only notice now you should pay more attention :-P
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12:31:15 <Smoky555> can somebody help me with cross-compiling in linux for windows?
12:32:33 <Smoky555> no... compilling without any errors, but when linking ...
12:32:34 <Noldo> there might be something in the wiki an also compilefarm has some stuff in the mercurial
12:33:55 <Ammler> dih: not since months, since ever...
12:35:13 <Smoky555> Noldo: i make all such in a wiki (include libpng and zlib), i also compile SDL libs for mingw... but in a stage "linking openttd.exe" i have error "fontcache.o:fontcache.cpp:(.text+0x124): undefined reference to `_FT_New_Face'" and "heightmap.o:heightmap.cpp:(.text+0x30d): undefined reference to `_png_create_read_struct'"
12:35:45 <dih> Ammler: since the bouncer?
12:36:29 <Ammler> Kendo, zZz and what else...
12:36:42 <Noldo> Smoky555: you don't have all the needed libraries
12:36:44 <dih> point being, ln- never complained before...
12:37:09 <Yexo> Smoky555: try configuring with ./configure --without-libpng --without-libfreetype
12:37:23 <Yexo> you won't have png support, but that works for me
12:37:26 <Ammler> In- did, also to you :P
12:38:10 <Ammler> that's why tabcompletation didn't function :-)
12:38:11 <Doorslammer|BRSet> dih: Ill send him round an excavator for the hole he is making
12:38:39 <Ammler> I might need to change my font.
12:40:55 <Doorslammer|BRSet> You should try IRCing with a British Rail font
12:41:07 <Doorslammer|BRSet> tokal has a hairdresser symbol :P
12:41:22 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Everyone else has the signs from the toilets :D
12:42:09 * Doorslammer|BRSet no longer thinks BR font is a smart idea
12:45:38 <dih> i want an ignore module for znc
12:49:28 <Noldo> the ship pathfinding just won't leave my head
12:49:42 <Noldo> maybe I need to start coding a solution
12:50:51 <Smoky555> Yexo: yes, yes, i see... but i need png and freetype support ...
12:51:27 <Noldo> MorgyN: there isn't one bacause it kind of isn't a bug
12:55:07 <Doorslammer|BRSet> dih> New (but worthless) post now
12:55:55 <Noldo> MorgyN: problem is that ship pathfinding is slow
12:57:00 <MorgyN> the current methodoligy does sound awful =P
12:57:33 <MorgyN> there are some pathfinding routines on gamedev that would be applicable, being that sea units can either move onto a tile, or not
12:58:30 <dih> MorgyN: the thing is that yapf is a total path pathfinder
12:58:30 <Noldo> It's really a matter of too many tiles to search on large maps
12:58:37 <dih> any tile is a turning point
13:00:43 <MorgyN> yes but if you remove the conditionals and make assumptions you can speed up the decicion process
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13:22:48 <dih> they are more enjoyable than air waves
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13:28:10 <dih> that is a very very good post
13:28:26 <dih> orudge: can we have a top 100 for best posts?
13:28:58 <Doorslammer|BRSet> That looks like a rather good excuse to get banned :P
13:29:43 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Good old hindsight strikes again :P
13:30:21 <MorgyN> aha Hallo Belugas, if a 16 company patch was created against current stable, what would incline you to put it into trunk?
13:30:59 <Doorslammer|BRSet> Ah, that machine
13:31:13 <Doorslammer|BRSet> More of a mobile conveyor than anything else ;)
13:31:37 <dih> it's against stable? why not make it against trunk right away?
13:31:45 <dih> MorgyN: have you also searched the forums?
13:32:03 <hylje> development stuff e.g. patches are expected to be done against the development source
13:32:19 <Belugas> MorgyN, the fact i'm not a network guru, that i lack time, that i wonder if you have addressed all the issues, that i have not yet seen anything (regarding my poor memory)
13:32:40 <hylje> 16 companies is OK but it's little use so long there's only 10 allowed clients
13:33:04 <MorgyN> Belugas: There is a patch from 2007, but I'm looking at porting it up to current stable
13:33:24 <dih> one would have to make a newgrf packet style approach for the udp packets about clients etc to increase the number
13:33:34 <MorgyN> I'm just wondering what I could do to make it more likely to be adopted into trunk
13:34:11 <Yexo> 1) follow the coding style
13:34:11 <hylje> dih: to be done with it one would need to do it in a generic way e.g. up to 255 clients or more depending on compile options
13:34:24 <hylje> dih: else it's just working around
13:34:25 <Yexo> 2) port it to the current trunk, not the latest stabgle
13:34:52 <dih> hylje: the UDP packets will get the server to assert as soon as you have more than 11 clients
13:34:59 <dih> as all client details are stuffed into one packet
13:35:14 <hylje> that's part of the problem
13:35:14 <dih> the newgrf details are done differently
13:35:42 <dih> the info packet contains a list of id's => md5sums of used newgrfs
13:35:44 <orudge> dih: if you want to go and rank them all, sure. You've only got nearly 700,000 to look through :PO
13:35:50 <Belugas> MorgyN, that's what i said when talking about all the issues
13:35:58 <Belugas> simply reviving a patch is not enough
13:36:00 <dih> you request id=>md5sum from server and get the name from as many will fit into the packet
13:36:03 <orudge> I did consider setting up a bash.org-type thing for #tycoon osme time ago
13:36:08 <Belugas> if it was good enough, it would have been intergrated
13:36:13 <orudge> so in theory that could be extended to here, and even to forum posts
13:36:17 <orudge> but that involves effort
13:36:28 <Belugas> if it's not , it could very well be becasue it was not right yet
13:36:38 <orudge> dih: well, if I were to set up such a thing, yes
13:38:52 <dih> well - it's silly to invest the time if phpbb does not offer that feature (or has a plugin for such things)
13:41:31 <MorgyN> Ahh I did forget about the network announce.
13:41:34 <Belugas> MorgyN, you can still, if you wish, bring it to trunk, that would not be a waste.
13:41:45 <Belugas> if you can improve it, it would be even better
13:42:17 <Belugas> but as TrueBrain said, maybe the best way would be to remove any limits
13:42:32 <Belugas> just that i find it a bit hard to achieve...
13:42:44 <MorgyN> I don't believe more than 64 is possible
13:42:48 <dih> the network packets show an issue in this
13:42:53 <MorgyN> without MAJOR revisions to the code.
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13:43:13 <Yexo> well, 64 is already a huge step forward from 8
13:43:13 <Belugas> problem with limits, there is always someone who asks for more...
13:43:54 <MorgyN> I think 64 companies on even a 2048^2 map would be fairly crowded soon =)
13:44:06 <Belugas> every structure in trunk that identifies a player will need to be upgraded from 8 to 64
13:44:17 <hylje> limits are always there, the point is about making trivial to lift them to above hardware limits
13:44:27 <Belugas> savegame conversion and all...
13:44:32 <Yexo> MorgyN: just divide the map in 64 pieces, that way you have a 256^2 piece per company :)
13:45:29 <hylje> Yexo: also allows for clustering
13:45:36 <hylje> Yexo: given one actually makes the stuff work together
13:45:52 <MorgyN> as long as the 'new' code is unlimited
13:46:01 <Yexo> hylje: that wasn't my intention, it was more to demonstrate that the crowding isn't that bad
13:46:06 <MorgyN> but with a 64 limit for 'legacy' code
13:46:27 <MorgyN> in the future I suppose with auditing the the code to remove limits would be possible.
13:46:27 <hylje> MorgyN: e.g. conversion
13:46:37 <Yexo> I'd like to see 64 AIs running on one map :p
13:46:41 <hylje> Yexo: most of the map will be uninteresting to the players. there'll be crowded spots all over
13:47:23 <hylje> the game needs a more complex collaboration/competition system for large amounts of players anyway
13:47:29 <glx> anyway there's only 16 company colors
13:47:30 <Belugas> but honestly, when i look at the current rate of servers VS players, i wonder truely about the usefullness of the feature...
13:47:51 <MorgyN> Hmm I'll try and book some free time to allocate to this, need to get it working before the 8th of august ideally =)
13:47:58 <hylje> glx: 256 2-color liveries
13:48:49 <MorgyN> running an openttd tourney, and 16 people would be easier to do than 8s =)
13:49:12 <joachim> does enabling some patches (small airports, multiple engine sets) break savegames in trunk or is it just my version? :)
13:49:16 <Belugas> that makes me think... maybe it would be good to make it so company colors are disabled when reaching that amount, or someting like that...
13:49:17 <hylje> thank you my dear acronym expander
13:49:29 <Belugas> joachim: no, it should not
13:49:35 <joachim> enabling after the game is started, that is
13:49:36 <MorgyN> Belugas: so that all oposition were the same colour?
13:50:01 <hylje> MorgyN: nah, forced 2-color i think
13:50:39 <hylje> some newgrf support two color livery, that is two company colors
13:50:56 <hylje> this may be extended to actual company colors in order to give a larger space of them
13:51:20 <MorgyN> the 16^2 you mentioned before
13:51:49 <MorgyN> Did you mean that Belugas?
13:55:42 <Belugas> don't know, i have not followed everything you said all
13:57:01 <Belugas> if there are only 16 colours, you cannot have more than 16 companies
13:57:35 <Belugas> how can the graphs will handle more companies then?
13:57:56 <Belugas> unless we're looking at some colour pattern, like dashed colors and all...
13:58:01 <Belugas> that would look stupid anyway
13:58:41 <MorgyN> well for graphs you could abandon using the company colours, and just use a legend?
13:59:09 <Belugas> and the scheme that hylje mentionned does only work for vehicles. not available for companies
13:59:20 <Belugas> companies only have 16 colors available
13:59:38 <Belugas> those are specially coded colours
13:59:59 <Belugas> changing that would mean bobo
14:00:14 <Belugas> ow if yo excuse me, i have work@work to do
14:00:28 <MorgyN> well thatsbah i'm trying to avoid that =P
14:09:20 <dih> is there a up2date documentation of the coding style?
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14:24:50 <Doorslammer|BRSet> MorgyN> Missing a b :P
14:25:06 <ben_goodger> yay home business
14:25:20 <MorgyN> I want the cash without the work =P
14:27:30 <dih> MorgyN: i pitty the fool :-P
14:41:19 <Belugas> freaking double click feature...
14:41:34 <Belugas> doubling the financial results at closing the day :S
14:54:25 <dih> wrong button again glx? :-P
14:54:39 <glx> no reboot after AV update
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18:21:07 <Bjarni> you point at the clientlist
18:21:36 <Eddi|zuHause3> no, i clearly point to the word "topic"
18:21:57 <ln-> Eddy|atHome3: i didn't know English Only even applies to names now.
18:23:40 <Eddi|zuHause3> who said i meant the "english only" part of the topic?
18:24:06 <Bjarni> if you feel that you might have problems reading that then I suggest that you pay attention to the topic ;)
18:24:09 <ln-> who said i meant that you meant the "english only" part?
18:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause3> clearly, the guys who invented the cyrillic alphabet were idiots :p
18:25:17 <ln-> Not necessarily, the cyrillic letters are very compact for writing e.g. certain names.
18:25:57 <Bjarni> I was told by a Russian that they wanted an alphabet and sent out two guys to get one from Europe where they already used one. They paid a fortune for a complete set of letters made out of wood and headed home
18:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> that is obvious when you have letters that mean "schtsch"
18:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause3> that some words get shorter ;)
18:26:34 <Bjarni> on the way home they dropped the letters and they broke. Instead of declaring their mission a failure they decided to fix the letters to make them look like what they could remember them to look like
18:26:56 <Bjarni> clearly they didn't have a good memory of what they looked like
18:27:14 <ln-> compare "Tschetschenien" and "Чечня" for example.
18:27:24 <Bjarni> this story is so stupid that it could be true. It would certainly explain why R got inverted
18:27:38 <Bjarni> they also mixed up which sound belongs to which letter
18:28:22 <Bjarni> Бярни <-- looks more like brphn to me :P
18:30:19 <eekee> \u0411\u044f\u0440\u043d\u0438 to me. stupid Darwin
18:33:16 <Noldo> I didn't know coffee deficency induced gay thoughts
18:34:08 <MorgyN> does it work in reverse too?
18:35:23 <Bjarni> certain people have been trying to cure homosexuals through time... none of them figured out how to do it so I don't think something as simple as coffee can do it
18:35:48 <Bjarni> doctors used to drug homosexuals to see which drug would make them prefer women instead
18:36:02 <Bjarni> the result was spaced out homosexual men
18:36:13 <MorgyN> still loving the cock?
18:36:16 <Bjarni> who ended up living in an imaginary world
18:36:58 <Bjarni> then they declared that those drugs wouldn't do humanity any good
18:38:20 <Belugas> funny... there are still people who think homosexuality is a disease... in the 21th century, what's more :(
18:38:26 <ln-> Noldo: now look what you have done.
18:38:58 <Bjarni> I think it would be possible since everything going on in the body is chemical mixtures and concentrations that controls everything. However we have no clue to what controls the preferred gender
18:39:03 <Belugas> or even a disorder...
18:39:51 <Bjarni> meaning it could be cheaper to build a colony on the moon rather than figuring out how this is controlled
18:40:02 <Noldo> ln-: and with such a lame joke, unbeliveable
18:42:58 <Bjarni> personally I think there are more important parts of the body that should be explored and understood before investigating the sex drive
18:45:11 <joachim> Bjarni: actually a recent study gave them a clue
18:48:40 <joachim> think it had something to do with an enlarged left or right brain
18:50:34 <Bjarni> enlarged left should prefer women and equal sized sides should prefer men
18:50:49 <Bjarni> but they have no idea why
18:51:48 <Bjarni> the really big question is: is whatever controls the sexuality controlling the brain size or the other way around
18:52:08 <Bjarni> or is it a random thing that there is a connection?
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18:52:42 <Bjarni> I mean is it by random that they ended up with this result and would they get a different result if they test other people?
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18:52:50 <joachim> and why would brain size control anything directly...
18:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause3> i think you misunderstand correlation for causality
18:54:10 <joachim> oh seems the brain size wasn't the only finding
18:55:21 <Bjarni> I know some theory on how to try to get rid of uncertainty. However I also know that when applying "a filter" (forgot the actual name for this) you decide on some parameters and stuff... and it's not uncommon to set the parameters to get a result that you like
18:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause3> it's called "do not trust a statistics that you did not fake yourself"
18:56:31 <Bjarni> this is quite common. Take for instance an opinion poll. The same answers can give the same party 14% with one set of parameters and 13,% with another set
18:56:55 <Bjarni> *13,5 (not that it matters much with the actual number here)
18:59:09 <joachim> well, 90 people is not a large enough sample to prove anything
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19:05:21 <ln-> what does an expression like "x = (y, 2);" mean in C?
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19:06:28 <ln-> so it does, but does y mean anything?
19:06:53 <Yexo> it is executated, so if y is acutally a function call, the function is called and the return value discarded
19:08:04 <ln-> and is this somehow useful in some context?
19:08:42 <Yexo> nothing I can think off right now
19:09:16 <Yexo> it's good to know it can and what is does, but in general, you don't need it yourself
19:11:08 <TiberiusTeng> never #define y {DoSomethingReallyEvil(); blah(); z++/x--*w; }
19:11:55 <TiberiusTeng> but it's still better than C++ ... where you don't even sure if operator=() really do assignment
19:12:33 <TiberiusTeng> one of my friend once overloaded operator/() to do vector dot product .........
19:13:02 <Yexo> ok, that is confusing, but overloading operator+ for vector addition can be quite usefull
19:13:30 <Yexo> not actually usefull, as a function call could do the same, but you can get cleaner code by applying it logically
19:13:35 <TiberiusTeng> now I see x=(y,2) I would think that x is a tuple now (Pythonic :p)
19:14:45 <Yexo> without context, I'd say the same, but in C, no :)
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19:46:16 <fjb> Where in the code do the original grfs get loaded?
19:47:26 <Belugas> dunno the lines tough
19:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd have said gfxinit, but what do i know :p
19:48:46 <fjb> Ok, I didn't find it. Will have a second look.
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19:52:34 <Ammler> fjb: grep for the trg* files and follow :-)
19:53:18 <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i grepped for sample.cat, and this file popped up, but it appears that only checks the validity of the files by MD5
19:53:24 <Eddi|zuHause3> not actually load them
19:55:40 <fjb> Belugas: newgrf.cpp initializes the structures. But I don't see where the files get actually loaded.
19:56:06 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: gfxinit decides if it uses DOS or Windows palette.
19:57:52 <fjb> My idea was to change the palette of the original DOS grfs to the windows palette on loading. So that every custom grf would have to be the windows version independent of the the version of the original grfs.
19:59:10 <frosch123> poor dos palette, though it is so much nicer and also includes 3 colors more
20:00:22 <fjb> But almost all grfs are using the windows palette. And some grfs are availlable onle in the windows version.
20:00:53 <Belugas> not sure at 100%, but i think LoadNewGRFFile in newgrf.cpp does the trick, fjb. Place a breakpoint and check the c->filename
20:01:16 <frosch123> fjb: It is not always the best, that becomes standard :p
20:01:25 <Belugas> i can't dwelve any further, as i am still at work
20:01:47 <fjb> frosch123: You don't have to tell me... :(
20:02:07 <frosch123> But if you want to convert the colors, you have to hack the spriteloader in, well, "spriteloader" :p
20:02:11 <fjb> But what do you think about my idea?
20:02:32 <Prof_Frink> fjb: Of course, in The Future, everything'll be 32bpp and shiny
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20:02:52 <fjb> Prof_Frink: I think about the near future...
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20:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause3> 32bpp doesn't even touch the palette problem
20:07:18 <ln-> Bjarni: how was your Nestlé dinner?
20:12:29 <Belugas> fjb, it's an idea. we have discussed about doing it a while ago.
20:12:38 <Belugas> just that nobody volunteered
20:12:48 <Belugas> looks like you did :)
20:18:25 <fjb> Belugas: If I'm able to understand the code.
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20:30:15 <lobster> iTunes is Now playing: Volbeat - Rock The Rebel / Metal The Dev - Sad man's tongue
20:30:36 <lobster> (not an advertisement, Bjarni)
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22:30:55 <Ammler> fjb: the usage of different grfs does also block the others from joining a MP server, so something in this direction would be very cool.
22:31:54 <Ammler> I wish you luck to find a solution :-)
22:33:07 <Yexo> Ammler: even if fjb succeeds, the md5 sums of will still not match, so you still need exactly the same grfs
22:33:39 <Ammler> but then someone with dos original can load windows newgrfs :-)
22:33:52 <Yexo> but still it would be usefull because all grf authors can just publish only the windows version
22:34:10 <glx> Yexo: they can't because ttdpatch
22:34:49 <Yexo> ok, so why exactly is it usefull then?
22:34:53 <Sacro> just *cough* edit the code
22:35:05 <fjb> But some authors are already publishing only the windows version.
22:35:12 <Ammler> "dos users" should be able to convert... self.
22:35:33 <Yexo> Sacro: wha tI ment was that they didn't have to go through the trouble to create two versions, but I forgot ttdpatch, so it'll still be needed
22:37:00 <fjb> Ammler: Not everybody is able to to it. And some GRF lincence explicitly forbid to change the grf in anyway or even use grfcodec on it.
22:37:03 <Ammler> is it possible and legal to convert original dos grfs to windows?
22:37:34 <glx> possible probably, legal no
22:37:48 <fjb> Possible? I think so. Legal: I don't think so.
22:38:09 <Ammler> then that alternative is gone, fjb, I hope you find something :-)
22:38:10 <Yexo> legal depends on the country you're in, and if you're publishing the converted version or converting just for your own use
22:38:27 <Prof_Frink> Legal: If you just distribute tools and not the converted files, maybe.
22:38:47 <fjb> Ammler: I'm not sure that I'm understanding C++ and the OpenTTD source well enough.
22:39:02 <Yexo> isn't converting already possible with grfcodec?
22:39:02 <glx> the tool exists, it's grfcodec
22:39:55 <Ammler> but wasn't sure, if it is for original grfs too.
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22:40:30 <Ammler> does it generate exactly the same grf?
22:40:31 <Yexo> that was exactly why I was asking ;p
22:41:01 <glx> you can change the palette easily (like you do when encoding a newgrf)
22:41:08 <Ammler> I thought, there are some other differences as the palette
22:41:24 <Ammler> but I might have thought about TTO-TTD
22:42:05 <glx> dos grf contains less sprites than win grf
22:42:39 <Ammler> so a converted grf wouldn't match the md5sum :-)
22:47:15 <dih> add a file for md5sum override...
22:47:52 <dih> a very advanced feature for the config :-P
22:48:37 <Ammler> don't think converting will be a alternative...
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23:02:39 <dih> pegasus, the guy coding the multiplayer gui is not on irc, is he?
23:04:01 <dih> now - wehere is _that_ a irc channel?
23:06:05 <dih> lobster, you make like no sense! :-P
23:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause3> and that is news to you, dih? :p
23:06:52 * dih slaps lobster for not fitting in with the last part of the topic
23:07:33 <lobster> iTunes is Now playing: Yob - Catharsis - Catharsis
23:07:47 <lobster> THEN SLAP ME ON THE PRIVATES
23:08:26 <dih> oh - sorry - it was peter1138 who had set that part of the topic :-P
23:09:19 <lobster> pffft, peter1138 even tuned in to my radio this very evening
23:09:40 <lobster> so i guess i'm not Draakon-style idiotic
23:09:47 <dih> does not mean someone is not acting like an idiot in an irc channel
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23:19:58 <Yexo> hmm, is there any automated way to get the version (revision) of an openttd exe under windows?
23:28:13 <Sacro> does that work at last/
23:28:15 <dih> well --help will give you the version in the first line
23:28:26 <dih> Sacro, no, --version does not exist...
23:28:29 <Sacro> can we have --version spitting out *just* the version
23:28:33 <Sacro> cos it'd be damned useful
23:29:24 <dih> i just make patches every once in a while
23:30:06 <Sacro> lets highlight them all
23:30:56 <dih> heh - that's an easy one - but i wont do it :-P
23:32:13 <dih> according to the code --version exists
23:33:42 <Yexo> dih: openttd --help works fine, but it gives a dialog box, and doesn't print in the console (at least in all windows versions I compiled)
23:34:20 <dih> well - according to strgen/strgen.cpp there is a --version and -v
23:34:25 <dih> yet it does not seem to work...
23:34:55 <Yexo> dih: -v is for setting a video driver
23:35:31 <Sacro> that needs changing to -vo
23:35:51 <Yexo> according to strgen/strgen.cpp there is a --version and -v <- that's the code for strgen, so ./strgen --version will work :p
23:38:50 <Yexo> glx: I'd like to do it in a script in the command line, and for all nigthlies, but it seems that's not possible
23:39:03 <glx> and you also need a debug build or start with -d
23:45:23 <dih> Sacro: it's not -ao for audio driver :-P
23:46:19 <dih> there there are only single letter opts
23:46:27 <dih> Sacro, you have a one tracked mind :-S
23:47:40 <dih> well - i know have -V or version ... but that sucks
23:48:30 <lobster> iTunes is Now playing: Botch - Botch - Unifying Themes Redux - The opera song
23:48:38 <lobster> still on unspammy lobster tadio
23:48:41 * Sacro is now playing: Bill Bailey - Dr. Qui
23:49:07 <dih> lobster, you are most annoying...
23:49:23 <Sacro> dih: compared to draakon?
23:49:23 * Yexo is turning his music off, because I'm going to bed. Night all
23:49:41 <dih> draakon is annoying and an idiot
23:49:58 <dih> lobster so far as more proven to be annoying only... he does not say much else anyway
23:51:17 <lobster> dih: quite, for i have the OTTD channel not as a regular place to share my deepest of secrets
23:51:40 <lobster> merely as a place to ask about OTTD and spam when deejay the infamous Z.radio
23:51:55 <dih> yes - but the music you listen to is not interesting to any other person here
23:52:10 <lobster> then again, you probably are the type of person to find Dave Worley offensive and/or annoying
23:52:55 <dih> good thing there are ignore lists :-P
23:53:26 <lobster> otherwise i'd never get rid of good old yorick, and you of me
23:54:43 <dih> toolbar_gui.cpp:523: warning: enumeral mismatch in conditional expression: 'ToolbarScenEditorWidgets' vs 'ToolbarNormalWidgets' <-- heh
23:58:40 <glx> I'm sure it won't work on windows because it's not a console app
continue to next day ⏵
